Isabel Hardman's Sunday Roundup - 01/11/2026

0:05Hello and welcome to Coffeehouse Shops, the Spectator's daily politics podcast. I'm Isabel Hardman and this is the Sunday Roundup. This week, John Healy insists the benefits bill will come down under Labour. And as the Commonwealth Summit begins, Andy Burnham's openness to an apology for slavery sparks debate. Days after his first budget, Chancellor John Healy caused confusion over whether he was promising to cut the benefits bill or just slow its growth. On the BBC, Laura Koonsberg asked him to make his position clear. You caused a bit of confusion this week, so I'd like to clarify. Will the country be spending overall more or less on welfare by the time of the next election?

0:49Well, 100%. We will bring the benefits bill down. The Prime Minister has said that. I've said that. What I set out of the budget was a timetable for the changes we must make. The changes we must make after we get the big reports this month, from Alan Milburn on the million youngsters that are out of work with no training, from Stephen Timms on a personal independence payment system that is not fit for purpose. And what I've confirmed is a timetable for next year. A government policy paper, a white paper and legislation. the changes we put in place for the long-term change in our benefit system.

1:29But I just want to be really clear, because you've just said again that the benefits bill will come down. Now, when you said that earlier this week, actually then the Treasury and then Downing Street said, no, that's not what you meant. What most people think you were saying was that you will slow the rate of increase of the benefits bill. So just to be completely clear, what are you saying? Are you saying overall the bill, which is hundreds and hundreds of billions of pounds, will come down? Or that your aspiration and your determination is to slow down the rate of increase? Which is it? Because this is a really important point.

2:02Well, first of all, since the election, we've already slowed down the rate of increase in the benefits bill, which was the numbers were booming under the Tories. This is a system which is not working. We have to make big changes. We will. We'll do it after the reports are from Milburn and Timms this month. and we'll do it, and I set this out in the budget, with the new white paper, the government policy set out in the new year, and next year we'll also legislate. Now that will bring the bill down. We've set out the timetable for changes. We've never set out the timetable for savings. And some of the reporting earlier in the week was simply wrong.

2:39And I said on Thursday, this is the way we'll do it. We'll make the changes. We'll make the changes without getting ahead of the reports that will be published this week. and as a Labour government we will do this in a way which reflects our values and means that we give those youngsters a million youngsters written off by the benefit system at the moment this is a moral duty and I have to say I'm really encouraged as I prepared the budget business is ready to weigh in behind this so are the trade unions we can make this a national mission and we will. You're saying the overall bill will be brought down by a Labour government which would mean cuts or savings, whatever you want to call it, of about£100 billion.

3:18That's what you're saying? The overall bill must come down. There's nothing progressive in a bigger and bigger benefits bill. That's an economic duty. That is also a moral duty. But to be completely clear, you're saying today that the overall bill will come down under this government? The overall bill will come down under Labour. We'll start the changes next year and we'll bring that bill down. And we've already demonstrated how we'll do that for the long term, not just to deal with the benefits bill, but more importantly, change the social security system so that it doesn't write people off, particularly that million youngsters at the moment, not in employment, not in education, not in training.

4:02That is a national scandal. Andy Burnham has said he is open to a formal apology for Britain's role in the slave trade, but has ruled out reparations. Coonsberg asked Healy why the government wouldn't pay reparations. Prime Minister has suggested that there could be an apology to Commonwealth countries because of the historic wrongs of slavery, but not reparations. Obviously, the Commonwealth summit is coming up. Why should the UK not pay reparations? Many Commonwealth countries think this country's wealth, maybe the wealth in this building, a gilt chandelier, came off the back of slavery. So why, as a government, are you not willing to contemplate paying reparations?

4:42Well, the Prime Minister has said, look, we are open to a discussion about an apology. He feels that that's the right thing, particularly ahead of the Commonwealth Leaders Conference. But he doesn't believe that reparations are the right approach. And considering a formal apology doesn't mean accepting that British people now should accept the financial liability for any party and things that happened hundreds of years ago. in which they had no role. On Sky News, Fraser Nelson asked Reform's Robert Jenrick what he made of an apology for slavery. Look, I think Andy Burnham is illiterate when it comes to history.

5:21I mean, has he never heard of William Wilberforce? The UK, Great Britain, led the world in the eradication of slavery, which was obviously one of the great ills. He's saying there's a mixed picture, right? Even you must admit there is a mixed picture on them. Well, of course, but I think we should be proud of our record. We should be teaching young Britons to celebrate our role in eradicating slavery. We were the first major country to do so. We then eradicated it throughout the British Empire. We created the West Africa Squadron. 1 ,500 British sailors died, policing the seas to free 150 ,000 slaves.

5:54If you look at the United States, their great political hero is Abraham Lincoln, who abolished slavery but did so decades after the United Kingdom. We should be like that. We should celebrate, not constantly. It's kowtow to people who peddle grievance. Does the conversation allow us to do both? To say, you're saying the good outweigh the bad. But can we also acknowledge the bad? That's all this is about. Of course, of course, we should never paper over the bad that happened within our history. But equally... Apologies fair enough, then. No, what is the value in apologising for something that happened hundreds of years ago with the actions of our ancestors, when actually, overall, we should be extremely proud of the role that we played.

6:35I don't believe in peddling grievance, and neither do I believe in kowtowing to those people who do. We should be looking to the future. And also the other thing, Fraser, is why is Andy Burnham wasting time on a debate like this when there are so many big challenges facing this country? Is this going to make people in this country any richer? Is it going to help with the cost of living? Is it going to give us sensible energy prices? Because he's the prime minister. He's about to chair the Commonwealth. And there's a reason why the Commonwealth is as it is, and that's because of our rules. So it's not exactly irrelevant.

7:05He's doing it because it speaks to his character. He's a crowd pleaser. He doesn't like taking difficult decisions. He doesn't like fronting up hard choices. And instead of focusing on the things that working people in our country actually care about, he's going off around the world making these grand statements that make him feel good, and maybe they make some other people feel good in dinner parties in North London, but they do nothing for my constituents in North Nottinghamshire who want to know how are their living standards going to be improved. The budget, which we've just had, said that the next five years are going to be marked by consistently declining living standards.

7:41The 2020s are going to be the worst period for living standards since the 1950s. They were saying increasing living standards, but lower increase. The lowest rising in living standards. The 1950s were a time of rationing. That is what we're now comparing ourselves to. It's not good enough. You need to have real change. Rachel Reeves has written in the Sunday Times that Britain's future lies in the European Union. Fraser Nelson asked Ed Davey whether Andy Burnham had now gone further than the Lib Dems on free movement. OK, well, something else that we're seeing movement on is the European Union.

8:13Rachel Reeves now says she can see her future back there. Andy Burnham, as Prime Minister, explicitly says this is his destination as well. He says he's opened up to bringing free movements back. Now, there he's going a bit further than you, isn't he? No, at all. No, we put forward the idea that we should join the single market with free movement of labour earlier this year. Explicitly with free movement of labour? Is this something you want to bring back, what, now? Yeah, well, we've got to negotiate it, right? Of course, you've got to negotiate it. But we've already advocated and put forward a bill to parliament for a youth mobility scheme.

8:45That's just you, if you're talking proper free movement. No, and then we've argued for a single market, and that would involve free movement of labour. If you look at what's happened to immigration since we left Brexit, it got completely out of control. And now it's back. We've got the lowest, a 20-year low of the Great Strings work. It's been improved because the Boris wave, which saw massive immigration, which we've not seen before, has been curtailed. And that's right. But if you look at what Europe's doing on immigration, the EU Assignment Immigration Pact, which came into force June this year, has seen immigration into Europe for as well.

9:16So I think if we work with our European partners, we can do a much better job than the Conservatives and, I'm afraid, Labour have done. Right. So you look at Europe now and you see a model to emulate. I mean, I see protests in the streets of lots of European capitals and terrible questions about immigration, about integration. We at least, I agree, the Conservatives lost control. But Shabana Mahmoud has regained control. And control doesn't seem to be a word you'd associate with much of Europe right now. Well, if you look at the protests, whether in France or Germany, indeed outside Europe, I mean, a lot of protests outside Europe, it's really connected to the cost of living.

9:48And let's remember who's created that problem across the world. It's Donald Trump with his mad war in Iran. So, you know, I think we could benefit from a much closer trade and defence relationship with Europe. That is our position by joining the single market, joining the customs union. I think we would boost our economy and our economy needs some growth now. I think we all agree with that. The problem with the budget is it had no growth strategy whatsoever. I don't hear any other growth strategy other than what we're putting forward. And if Labour is coming onto that territory, we'll be rather slowly.

10:23And on GB News, Camilla Tominy asked Tory leader Kemi Badenok whether she would team up with Nigel Farage to fight any attempt to rejoin the EU. Rachel Reeves writing in the Sunday Times today that we should rejoin the EU. Will the Conservatives lead a campaign against this if the time comes? and in turn will you work with Brexiteers across all parties, including reform, to stop this? Rachel Reeves is a failed Chancellor who's looking for an excuse for why she didn't do well. Rejoining the EU is not the answer. We have left. The Conservative Party respects the will of the people. We made sure that we left the EU.

10:58It's time for us to make the best of it. But we know Burnham wants to rejoin. He's going to have this meeting on November 20th. We heard from Lara Spirit earlier saying they can't even do a reset deal on European students. let alone anything wider. And I said in the budget that we wouldn't even be allowed to go in with the amount of borrowing that we've got. What I'm interested in is shutting down this debate. I don't want us to have another campaign about this. It's completely crazy that they're even talking to you. But you might need to have one. And if you do need to have one, would you team up with Nigel Farage?

11:28I'm not interested in talking about future hypotheticals. I'm doing my best to make sure that we do not start reopening this debate. The entire country is on board. If Labour... I'm saying this because all of the indications point to Andy Burnham wanting to relitigate the referendum for some reason or other... Well, I know what you're trying to do, but my life doesn't revolve around Nigel Farage. No, I know it doesn't, but it might revolve around trying to win voters. So I'm going to... And that is exactly what I'm trying to do. I'm going to do my best to make sure that Andy Burnham does not get to reopen this question.

12:00Talking about who I'm going to be working with on the campaign and who's going to be my campaign buddy, look at what I'm doing now. I asked this man, as the leader of the opposition, I am the person who is questioning him on the floor of the House, exposing his foot-and-mouth syndrome. We are not going to get to this point if everybody sees what it is he's trying to do. He does not have a plan to sort the country out. That's why he's talking about rejoining the EU. He's now talking about a 10-year plan. Where's his 10-month plan? But what I don't want to do is go back to 10 years ago. Families did not, you know, families fought over this.

12:31The country was on pause. I don't want to have another referendum debate. And I don't want to entertain. And I don't want to entertain because once we start talking about this, who's joining up with who? We're opening the door. You might not want to. That's all for this week. I'm Isabel Hardman and this podcast was produced by Joe Bidel Brill. If you enjoy Coffeehouse Shots, don't forget to click the follow button on whatever platform you're listening to us on. That way you'll get the latest episodes straight to your feed as soon as it's released. and do subscribe to our daily Evening Blend email.

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13:35Thank you.