Isabel Hardman's Sunday Roundup - 25/10/2026

0:04Hello and welcome to Coffeehouse Shots, the Spectator's daily politics podcast. I'm Isabel Hardman and this is the Sunday Roundup. This week, Andy Burnham reopens the debate on freedom of movement and Reform UK set out their alternative vision ahead of Wednesday's budget announcement. In an interview with the Sunday Times, Andy Burnham said he wanted an honest discussion about a possible return to free movement with the EU. On the BBC, Laura Koonsberg asked Housing Secretary Angela Rayner why Burnham had changed his position since warning against re-running the Brexit arguments. My view is that Brexit has been damaging, but I also believe the last thing we should do right now is re-run those arguments.

0:51Britain will be stuck in a permanent rut if we're just constantly arguing and people are pulling away from each other. It is time, surely, isn't it, to bring people back together. So why is he doing this, then? It's completely the opposite of what he said a few months ago. Well, I think it's exactly what he said a few months ago, and that's we're 10 years on from the referendum. We've been really clear in our manifesto what those red lines are. But we've got a summit coming up, and the Prime Minister is looking at a 10-year plan. We've seen the damage that has been done, 20 % down on exports. So we want to see what relationship we can have with Europe.

1:27And the Prime Minister is very clear as we go into that summit, we should be having an honest conversation about how Britain can get the best deal going forward for the next decade. An honest conversation, including a return to freedom of movement. Well, he's saying that he's not ruling things out at the moment. We can't rerun what happened in 2016, but it's about what relationship we have going forward. We've seen that businesses have said, whether that's through farming industry, through our food exports, that they need to have rules that allow them to do that trade with our biggest trading partner.

2:00And the Prime Minister is really clear that he wants to have that factual debate, bring people in as part of that debate so that we can get the best deal for Britain. But he said explicitly, everyone's just heard it there, to voters in Makerfield, we should not rerun those Brexit arguments. And at the heart of the Brexit debate was freedom of movement. Everyone watching knows that. For many people, that's absolutely what it was about. But this is not about rerunning those arguments. This is about where are we today? How has that affected our economy? And how do we go into the future through the summit and the 10-year plan on what our relationship is going to involve with the European Union?

2:40And that has to be based on facts. So whether or not we can, for example, on illegal migration, We used to have more commitment with the European Union on how we tackle illegal migration. Shabana Mahmood has done an excellent job recently in bringing down those numbers with cooperation with the French authorities. We want to make sure that the relationship we have with Europe going forward is the best for Britain. But you are talking about illegal immigration there, and it's one thing saying it's different to the arguments of 2016. What about the arguments of 2024? The Labour manifesto in 2024 said in black and white, there will be no return to freedom of movement.

3:23You stood on that manifesto. Andy Burnham promised to stick to that manifesto. He's breaking that promise, isn't he? No, he isn't, because he's been really clear that this parliament, that manifesto, we are clear we're not reopening that debate. What he's saying is... He's literally just reopened this debate. We're saying as we go forward into the future, we have a summit coming up. We have a 10 year plan that we're writing. It's 10 years on since we left the European Union. We can't go backwards. That's not a possibility for us. We have to go forwards. And therefore you have to look at what that future relationship will look like.

3:59We've already saved billions of pounds with the changes we've already made to help and enable the trade to continue with the European Union. So let's then get a clear view on what you're saying or suggesting might be in the next manifesto. OK, so I think we've just heard you say... Well, I'm not going to be able to write our manifesto today on this show, but the Prime Minister is clear. He wants to have the conversation. He's tackling the big issues, like the National Care Service he wants to introduce. He's talked about the changes to the triple lock. Hang on, we're talking about freedom of movement here.

4:29No, but what I'm saying is this is part of a wider programme that the Prime Minister is saying, bringing the country together, thinking about where the country goes into the future, not the old arguments of the past. Koonsberg also spoke to Reforms Treasury spokesperson Robert Jenrick, who described Burnham's position as completely mad. It's completely mad, the idea that this country needs more immigration. It's a total mess at the moment. We're trying to grapple with the Boris wave and all the challenges that we've had in recent times. And Andy Burnham is proposing to open our borders to another 450 million people, over whom we'd have no control whatsoever, what would this do?

5:08Undercut the wages of British workers, put more pressure on housing, on the NHS, on doctors, on dentists, more challenges for our communities and sense of unity and cohesion in this country. And it's such a dishonest position, Laura, because it was only a few months ago when he was on the stump in Makerfield where he said he didn't want to open this whole debate. What's he doing? precisely the opposite to what he said a few days ago. But when the facts change, and there's lots of economic data that would tell you that Brexit has not... But they haven't changed. That was the beginning of the summer, Laura.

5:40Let me ask you this question. When the facts change, lots of economists, and we've heard this morning people discussing it, that actually Brexit has not delivered what it was meant to do on the economy, maybe politicians are entitled to change their mind. I mean, you were a Romain campaigner and backed freedom of movement. You changed your mind. Why shouldn't Andy Burnham? You say economists are talking about this, but actually what all the data now shows is that mass migration, importing hundreds of thousands or even millions of people into this country, has been a disaster for living standards, for working people, for Brits in this country.

6:13Chancellor after Chancellor, Laura, Tory and Labour, have juiced up the GDP figures to try and make this country look richer than it actually is, whilst GDP per capita, the actual living standards of our people, have gone down. So the idea that bringing in a shed load of other people... from Europe is going to make my constituents, Brits, better off. You know very well that there is a much, much economic data suggests that actually leaving the European Union has caused harm to much of the economy. You know that very well. Everybody watching this morning knows that very well. I don't agree with that, Laura, actually.

6:45Our economy has performed better than other large economies in Europe over that time. And reopening the Brexit debate, how does that help business? No-one wants the chaos, the uncertainty. Well, Brett Hoberman sat here this morning and said He said he technically would welcome it. It's like deja vu. Well, maybe he needs to get out and about across the country. Because I tell you what, in the last week, I've been in WorkSop, I've been in Plymouth, I've been in Lincoln, I've been in my constituency in Newark. People feel hard up right now. The last thing they want are their wages being undercut by a load of low-wage, low-skilled migrants coming in from overseas.

7:20Why did you used to think it was a good idea, then? Well, I never thought freedom of movement was a good thing. You never thought freedom of movement? You were a prominent ruling campaigner. I was saying he wasn't. I was only just been elected. at the time. So hang on, did you have your fingers behind your back during that campaign? You didn't really mean it when you backed being in the EU. I've never thought that freedom of movement was a good thing. I mean, you can reheat the argument if you want over Brexit. I don't think that's what most people in this country want. At the moment, people are hard up.

7:46They actually want a government that is going to tackle the issues here and now in this country. And that is what reform is going to do. Liberal Democrat Deputy Leader Daisy Cooper told Koonsberg that her party would back a return to freedom of movement. We need to get Britain growing again. And the single biggest lever to grow our economy, which is what we need to do to be able to cut people's taxes and put money back in their pockets, is to get a better deal with the EU. We Liberal Democrats have been calling on this government to make sure we can join a single market, join the Customs Union and get a really good defence pact.

8:24If we can do all of that, and that includes free movement, we can grow our economy, we can be safer, stronger and more prosperous. So you would back a return to freedom of movement. But what would you say to viewers this morning who might think, hang on a minute, the reason I voted to leave the European Union was all about control of immigration, and you're willing to give that up again? Well, what I would say to those people is that we're 10 years on, and I think everybody can see that whether it's immigration or asylum, we now have the worst of both worlds. We don't have skilled people coming in that we need for our NHS and care and hospitality and engineering.

9:02We've lost millions of jobs because it's so expensive to do business in the UK. Businesses are not creating jobs in the UK and not starting up in the UK. And that's why we've got so many young people who are neats and unemployed because the high quality, high paid jobs that used to be here have gone to other countries. And when it comes to asylum, we can all see the small boats crisis. If we hadn't left the EU, we could now be part of, and we're calling for us to join, the new asylum pact that exists amongst EU countries that would allow us to have access to the data that we need, the biometric data, so that we could tackle the small boats crisis.

9:37So the Brexit deal that we got has given us the worst of all worlds. And we believe that having a stronger relationship with Europe could solve a lot of that. But when you're talking about illegal immigration there, the numbers of people who've been coming for good or for ill in small boats, everybody in every political party essentially says that's an undesirable situation because it's dangerous for them, and it also is something that can put strain on communities here. What you're saying is that you would accept, though, unlimited immigration from the European Union. Look, let's be really clear.

10:10Under freedom of movement, it works both ways. It's a reciprocal agreement. Now, if there aren't any jobs here in the UK, you're not going to get a lot of people coming over here for jobs that don't exist. But what it will do is it will reduce the cost of doing business. It will tear down the red tape and the paperwork that exists for British businesses. We'll see more businesses coming here. Businesses will be able to create new jobs for young people both in the UK and other people who want to come here. freedom of movement as well as freedom of capital and trade and ripping up red tape that have absolutely strangled British businesses would be a really good thing for growth.

10:46And if we can get our economy growing again, we can cut people's taxes, we can cut their bills, we can put money back in their pockets. That is a good thing. On Sky News, Anne McElvoy asked Angela Rayner whether the budget would put the government back on track to meet its target of 1.5 million new homes. But we know the pressures that are on social housing at the moment, and the Prime Minister was very clear that we need to build more council housing. We've already put£10 billion out through the door so that we can get our social and affordable homes programme moving, and hopefully the budget next week will show that we're really committed to making sure that we're building the biggest wave of council housing since the 1980s.

11:26So you're optimistic about an extra billion? Well, look, we know it's challenging. The Chancellor has already set out your first home to get people back on the housing ladder that don't have the bank of mum and dad. We've invested£10 billion already into social and affordable homes and hopefully at the budget and up to the spending review we'll be showing this government is on the side of people who need a home, who have desperately been waiting on housing lists and we're going to build those homes that they need. I think you said in the past that you found that that target, the£1.5 million extra homes, that that was proving difficult.

11:59Do you think what you're going to get in the budget is going to address that, put you back on track for that target? Well, look, that target was always a stretch target. And we've seen the situation in the Middle East has meant that construction costs have gone up. And what we're trying to do is help the market and help people building the homes that we need. We've got far too many people waiting for social housing. And the Prime Minister, alongside the Chancellor, is determined to change that. And McElvoy also asked Robert Jenrick about reform's plan to cut£40 billion of public spending in its first year.

12:32And for£40 billion in emergency cuts to give households£1 ,300 ,000 in tax relief. So where does that leave the original reform spending plan or cuts and spending plan to get£80 billion out of public spending over five years? Well, this is just in year one. The point that I'm making, Anne, is that the country is broke right now and people are finding life very, very tough. And yet it seems to me as if John Healy is just going to do a steady as she goes budget, brush the country's problems under the carpet, leave working people to struggle this winter. God knows what the bond markets will think of it.

13:17There might be a financial crisis. we can't go on like this. This budget has to be a course correction. And so what Nigel and I... So is this just bringing forward pledges that you've already made? Yes, we have worked out that if we were lucky enough to be in government, if this was our budget, we could find£40 billion of the£80 billion savings from waste that we've identified in the past in year one, and you'd use that to do two big things. Firstly, actually restore confidence to this economy. Make sure that the markets respect us in the world and that we're not paying higher debt interest than Greece or France at the moment.

13:57And secondly, put money into the pocket of working people and pensioners. Raise the tax-free personal ounce to£15 ,000. Ensure that the VAT threshold goes up to£150 ,000 for tradespeople and small businesses. ensure that we give£250 on people's energy bills. Do all those things right now so that people who are struggling, who are finding life so tough, and it's only going to get harder over the winter, actually have some money,£1 ,300 in their pockets. That's all for this week. I'm Isabel Hardman, and this podcast was produced by Joe Bedell-Brill. If you enjoy Coffeehouse Shots, don't forget to click the follow button on whatever platform you are listening to us on.

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15:10Thank you.