Reform in crisis after Channel 4 sting

0:00James Orr: 98 of the top 100 U.S. accounting firms trust Bill to handle BillPay processes. Why? Because our tools are built on over a trillion dollars of secure payments. We're not just moving money. We're powering financial workflows for half a million customers. That's a level of expertise you just can't fake. Ready to talk with an expert? Visit Bill.com slash proven to get started and grab a$150 gift card as a thank you. Terms and conditions apply. See offer page for details.

0:37James Orr: Hello and welcome to Coffeehouse Shots, the Spectator's daily politics podcast. I'm Oscar Edmondson and we are broadcasting live from Reform Conference with James Heal and Noah Hoffman. Now, I'm sure lots of you will have read the headlines today. Reform, senior members have resigned after a sting operation associated with Channel 4. James, quite a complex story, this one. Can you take us through it?

0:58Lee Anderson: Yep. So this was the best part of a year-long investigation into the funding practices of the Reform UK party and ecosystem more broadly. As a result of that, this story which has dropped on the day that Nigel Farage is making his big conference speech, Dan Dukes and James Orr have stepped away from their roles. It comes after the documentary which aired last night, appeared to suggest that there was some suggestion of money being used to get round UK donation laws. These laws suggest that only British citizens and British companies can donate. And this on camera suggested that this may have been potentially allegedly circumvented.

1:37Lee Anderson: So while the investigations are raging, it's problematic for a number of reasons. I think, number one, the apparent baiting by Dr. James Orr of the Electrical Commission, suggesting the Electrical Commission was effectively toothless. That was suboptimal, I would say. And I will be very interested to see how the regulator decides to come back on that next week. I think also second of all the issue was that it appeared to show what reform has not been trying to portray the last five six months there was a lot of briefings around the time of May June that this was going to be less five Hartford Street and more sort of Wokingham men's club and they were going to reconnect with their roots so to have them all apparently in top on the restaurants talking in this way I think is not what they want to convey in terms of the image of the party and And then finally, it's now involved a number of senior people.

2:25Lee Anderson: And I think that this morning Nigel Farage has talked about various contractors working for the party. That does a disservice, I think, to the many years that Dan Dukes has been by Nigel Farage's side. I understand why Mr Farage would say that. But I think that anyone who knows anything about reform is aware of how big the story is. And for something like this to break on reforms, big day at conference is very, very much a big blow for them.

2:48James Orr: Yeah, I think last night, it was a very strong suggestion that James was going to fall on his sword. But I don't think many people expected that Dan Dukes would have to go. Can you just set out how important Dan Dukes has been to this operation and why this is such a loss for Farage, maybe even personally?

3:02Lee Anderson: Yeah, so I'm writing a book on reform currently. And at the top of reform, there is a close-knit team, which you could probably count on one hand, maybe two, of people who are really key to Nigel Farage. And Dan Dukes is the lieutenant for Nigel Farage. The one I'm describing to me is he wouldn't betray Nigel for a million dollars. He is very loyal. He's been working for Nigel Farage effectively for 11 years, talked every single day. There's lots to talk about them, almost like a sunlight relationship. And I think Nigel Farage as a leader, understandably, wants to often fry above the fray, not get involved in firing decisions, not get involved in some of the difficult business that comes running a political party.

3:38Lee Anderson: Dan Dukes has been a key lieutenant in the battles that Nigel Farage started over the past 10 years or so, when he was in UKIP, then out, then in Brexit party, then out, then in reform. and so I think that this has been a massive blow to the top team of reform but I spoke to one of many states and we've just got to carry on you know they've just got to carry on and try and regain the initiative but it's a problem for reform because they wanted to use this conference as a springboard and I said once again they're on the back foot with unhelpful headlines and I think I was talking last night to a person who wants to stand as a reform candidate the next election and they just said I'm going to put my handling through hell I'm going to take a salary cut potentially going to lose and all of this is going on.

4:17Lee Anderson: It's just not what they needed. Now, I can understand the arguments some will make. It's a bubble story. These allegations may not be proven, etc. Let's see what the legal process does. I understand all that. But I think at a time when last year, Reform's conference was seen as a massive step forward, the next step, at the moment, this one is risking looking like a step backward.

4:35James Orr: Well, Noah, you've been out and about on the ground at Reform Conference, gauging the mood and the reaction of many reform members, reform curious. How has this one landed in the conference hall?

4:46Dan Jukes: Yeah, so if you talk about the documentary specifically, this will perhaps not come as a surprise to many people, but the members are not fazed by it. They're really not. In fact, if anything, they're angered by it. They think it's another establishment stitch up to use their parlance. a lot of people gave the sort of allegation that channel 4 is a left-wing outlet that it's always been out to get reform um and there was some speculation from some members that because there could be an early general election this was all you know timed very strategically now those were the views of the people at the conference but there was some sort of difference in enthusiasm i think this year from last year there was a there's a less of a spark among the members however when when i spoke to them about why they're here um what they want to talk about the same answer came up every time from every member from across the country there are people here from all over the country it's not concentrated in one area and that was that everything's going to the dogs and nigel frage is the only one who can save us you know this isn't the the country that my grandparents grew up in this isn't the country that people went to war to fight for um and they don't believe labor can can sort of bring the country back in their views they don't think the Tories can either.

6:02Dan Jukes: They really, really do believe that it's only Nigel Farage who can bring back this sort of old and golden version of Britain in their mind.

6:11Lee Anderson: And in the last few minutes, the Electoral Commission has confirmed it's talking to the police, Metropolitan Police, about the allegations put forward in the Channel 4. A spokesman has just come out and given a statement saying, considering all relevant information in line with a regulatory remit, we're in touch with the Met Police. And then they're suggesting that information about any potential attempt to evade the controls and donations for police to consider. so again you know this is not what they wanted and of course it's not going to cut through here we'll call the form conference but it's an interesting thing isn't it i remember being on this podcast in 2021 2022 and talking about boris johnson and we all said you know scandal doesn't matter it's fine it's fine it doesn't matter until it suddenly does and i think that uh that is a big big moment and one wonders today what the likes of robert jenrich soella braverman danny kruger are thinking they have thrown their lot in this time last year they were all apart from danny kruger all uh conservative members of parliament standing conservative conference people like Malcolm Offord one wonders what they are thinking and we shall see over the next week or so how tight that circle is at the top of reform because there are a lot of unhappy people right now and I suspect that Dan Dukes who in the course of political battles has made some enemies he is going to have his opponents out there right now trying to finish him off and there are a lot of people who don't like how the reform leadership is styled having a tight circle at the top I suspect those guys are going to need to strap in because people will try and take them out as a result of this.

7:28Lee Anderson: This will be the excuse, the pretext, the justification, whatever you want to call it. So I think it's a big moment for the people who've defined Nigel Farage's life in many ways over the past 10 years.

7:37James Orr: Well, Nigel Farage is, of course, speaking later, Noah. What does he say now? Does he address this or does he plough ahead with what the message was originally going to be as usual?

7:46Dan Jukes: So the reformed press release says that they're not going to comment on the issue any further. And now that the police are involved, perhaps they just won't address it. But I would have thought before there was an announcement of a police investigation that perhaps Farage would dress this up as somewhat of a hit job from Channel 4. He has, you know, there's bad blood between them. But James, I don't know if maybe they make the call that it's best to avoid it altogether.

8:13Lee Anderson: So this has been going a number of days. This documentary is now aired. There was a big battle beforehand. The timing is what's killed it here, I think. You know, the fact that it's come, you've got the seven and eight, you know, on today's programme talking about this, leading the bulletins, they had to do this. You know, they had to at least suspend, investigate, say something before the big speech at one o 'clock today, the big Jordan-Beldella press conference. They had to do something and this is what they've chosen to do. We'll wait to see if it's permanent. You know, the interesting thing about the reform multiverse, and this is all levels, people leave and never come back.

8:41Lee Anderson: You know, David Bull, for instance, I can see up on screen. He was someone who lost his brief in 2024, came back in 2025, is no longer chairman now. So people, you know...

8:50Dan Jukes: Wayne Towler.

8:50Lee Anderson: Wayne Towler's now on the board. I mean, you know, it was Churchill's line about politics, you know, war you can be killed once, politics many times. So look, we'll see what happens. And I think someone like Dan Dukes has been indispensable for the last 10 years. James Orr, we'll see what happens. Obviously, very close to J.D. Vance. I mean, interested to see if the American press picked this up, given he's been described as the British Sherpa. I think what's quite interesting as well, there's a lot of people out there who've been tweeting stuff, members of the reform policy team publicly have been saying this is all, you know, the result of foreign operatives, etc.

9:18Lee Anderson: We'll see how that lands, but it is not what they need. And I suspect right now, is just trying to hold it all together, get through and try and regain the initiative as they so desperately need.

9:27James Orr: Yeah, well, it'll be interesting to see how the senior members of Reform respond, whether they close ranks, what the message is going to be. And you can find out, we've got an interview later today between Michael Gove and Danny Kruger. It was meant to be Zia Yusuf, but it's now Danny Kruger. And that's going to be live streamed on our YouTube channel at Course Pass 3. But James, just a quick final question, because you've been speaking to the bell of the ball, which is Jordan Bardella. Jordan Bardella, yeah. Who many expect could take over in France. key ally of Nigel Farage. What's he been saying?

9:54Lee Anderson: Well, he's been saying a trailer of What's To Come Later, which is talking about why he thinks there's a need for a pact between the Rally National and Reform UK. The thing I was keen to drill down on was, look, if this deal you're going to announce later talking about stopping the votes is so brilliant, why wouldn't you agree with Burnham, Labour Prime Minister? Didn't really get much answers on that. He talked about Nigel Farage as a man, and it's interesting how much this goes back to reform the political economy of the strength of the will, the charismatic leader, rather than talking about other things like incentives and structures.

10:23Lee Anderson: But I also asked him about the EU withdrawal agreement. He was a little bit hesitant on that because if reform wanted to renegotiate part of that, how would you feel about as being French president? Reform wanted to strip foreign nationals of benefits, French nationals, etc. Bit hazy. I'm still going through the translation. But overall, it was very much in the vein of what we're expecting today. And again, a reminder that Farage is seen as an inspiration by a lot of younger right-wing figures coming up, the radical right. And Bardella's only 30-31. I think the most interesting question I asked was, Le Pen has been grooming you as a successor.

10:53Lee Anderson: Is it the time for Farage to do the same as some of the party want? You know, another person coming through, oh, what is a different system, he was saying, you know, talking about the president, the prime minister, very different to what's happening here. But I think it'll be interesting to see how one party that kind of sheds its past with her father, Marie Le Pen's father, obviously, and the anti-Semitic context in which he was operating, and obviously how the party's now grown and changed. So the question is whether Nigel Farage can do the same, make reform, as he often wants to say, he does, wants to do, make form the predominant part of the British right.

11:23James Orr: Wonderful. Well, we're only halfway through and this is an absolutely fascinating conference and you can find out all that there is to know about it on The Spectator's Coffeehouse blog and here on Coffeehouse Shots. And also on our socials, Noah is going to be beetling around the conference floor, reporting direct from the ground. You should see that on your Twitter, Instagram, whatever feeds. Thank you so much, Noah. Thank you, James. And thank you for listening.

12:09James Orr: Thank you.