Truth About AI, Work & Human Creativity ft. Andy Oliva | Coffeez for Closers with Joe Shalaby

0:00going from an employee to a founder is now you're responsible right like the buck stops with you right that's scary legitimately you've got to make sure you dot your i's you cross your t's you can't let this work through like now if i go and i implement like a voice like i've got to make sure that that thing is connected together welcome to another episode of coffee thank you very much all right and be here uh give people a quick 2 000 foot overview of what is lucky day labs what do you do how are you changing the game in ai and how can they benefit from today's show. Absolutely. Thank you. So we're a creative AI agency.

0:39And so what that means in really simple terms is, let's say your company is trying to figure out what to do with AI. Where do I go? Who do I listen to? What's my path forward? So I help you figure that out. So I'll come in, I'll help you figure out your strategy, I'll help you filter the signal from the noise. and then on top of that, I can even build it out for you. So let's say you need a new piece of software for your business that's running on AI. It's much more efficient, right? I can build that for you. I can design it in a really nice, clean, optimal way for your needs. Let's say you want to build something like an AI voice agent that when somebody calls your business and AI picks up the phone and answers any concerns they have or routes them to the correct department, helps you schedule an appointment.

1:30It's another example. My philosophy with what I'm trying to do is not replace people with AI. I'm trying to augment them and complement them and make their jobs easier and hopefully take the work that, you know, they don't find very fun or fulfilling or meaningful. At least that's my guiding philosophy. We're going through such a transformational period right now. It's hard to predict exactly what's going to happen, But from what I can see and what my experience has been, I think we're going through more of a transformational shift and less like a everything's going to go away sort of shift. I think if you're like, let's say a business and you want to replace somebody that has to babysit the phone all day and like answer the phone calls.

2:19If you're a business and you replace that with an AI, the next question is like, well, what happens to that person, right? Do you fire them? What do you do? So if I'm going into your company, my recommendation to you is going to be like, look, let's say you're paying 50K a year for that employee to basically just sit and monitor the phone, right? If you replace that with an AI, you can take that same employee and you can have them do other things. Like maybe if they don't have to spend their time and bandwidth manning the phones, then they can improve your customer experience like two, three, four times to what it is.

2:59And then that helps you get more clients, right? So that's sort of my philosophy in it. So I don't wanna go into a company and say, hey, let's replace your entire team with voice AI, right? That's not what my general philosophy is. My general philosophy is how can we take and free up bandwidth for your team that you already have? And then how can we find new creative ways that you can increase your company's productivity or improve your experience for your customers with the existing employees that you have so that we don't get rid of all those employees that have jobs, that have lives, that need to pay their own bills, sort of things like that.

3:41So I know that was sort of a long answer. Right now, the biggest concern with AI, and this is pretty, you know, everyone's pretty open about it, is everyone's concerned about AI replacing humans. Everybody talks about it. My philosophy is AI isn't replacing humans. AI is enhancing those that adopt AI. Sure. You know, AI is enhancing those people that adopt AI. And in my industry specifically, you know, mortgage loan originators, for instance, or real estate agents, if they're using AI, they're performing at a much higher level than those that are not. And as a CEO of a company, we're very tech heavy and we use a lot of AI, whether it's voice agents, whether it's AI calling, AI routing, AI taking phone calls, AI helping with document preparation or document, you know, requesting documents or, you know, following up with clients or milestones.

4:44The world of AI, we're just scratching the surface. This wasn't even like a word a couple of years ago. Right. And now this is not just a buzzword. This is like, you know, the future. Yeah. Look, like it is the future. Whether we agree with it or not, it's coming. And so my philosophy has been I need to help people prepare for what's coming, because if they're not prepared for what's coming, then that's going to be really bad. Right. Then that is the situation where like they're I don't know, the CEO of their company has to make a hard decision and say, you know, I've got 100 employees, they don't know how to use AI, and the company is going to go bankrupt if I don't bring in employees that do, right?

5:28I want to try and avoid that situation. I want to help those employees and those teams upskill and retrain as quickly as possible, as easily as possible to avoid like situations like that. So however, we do have to be careful because there is a lot of like, there is, I've seen a lot of noise in the past with like, just because like a company puts AI on something, like they say we did this AI thing. Like people are burned out with like hearing that as like, even though like, I don't think it should be a buzzword. It has become that for like the layman person. There is genuine value and benefits to be gained in AI for like the reason, like an example I just provided earlier, but just be careful just because a company has the word AI on it doesn't mean it's necessarily like if you're a CEO of a company, just because somebody comes to you and they're like, Hey, this is AI.

6:20You shouldn't like just immediately adopt it. If they can provide you like meaningful value, kind of like how I did earlier, then that definitely, I think you should look into that seriously. Yeah. I mean, listen, there's a new AI application being created every second. Exactly. Yeah. And you say you come into companies and help them drain the noise. there's a lot of freaking noise you know around ai what ai should i use what ai i mean i don't know how many ai applications we got that we're paying for that we're subscribed to outside of chat gbt corporate chat gbt whatever difference that is than the general one um but we we ourselves have you know several sure and look don't feel i've i found people feel guilty i'm not necessarily not saying you but i've found people feel bad or they feel guilty or they feel ashamed about not being able to keep up with the pace of how fast things are going.

7:17Like all of these AI companies are releasing like ground breaking products. It feels like almost every week, almost every day. Right. And even, even I have had trouble like just, you mentioned like having trouble keeping up with how fast things are moving. And I don't think we should be ashamed of that. I think we should try and just be honest and transparent and frank with each other about it and lean into it. When I was at opening eyes developer conference a couple of months ago for or a few weeks ago for Tech Week. They had Sam Altman and Johnny Ive. They were talking on stage. You know who Johnny Ive is, right?

7:49For listeners who may not know, he was the basically chief creative officer at Apple. He basically shaped Apple's products with Steve Jobs like we know them today. So big deal in the design world. He's joined OpenAI now. He mentioned that they're building a family of AI hardware products at OpenAI. So that's exciting. But the reason I'm telling this story is When he was talking to Sam Altman, even he mentioned that he's feeling overwhelmed with the pace of AI innovation. So if that guy is feeling overwhelmed, don't like, don't, I tell people, don't feel guilty. Don't feel bad. We can be honest with each other.

8:24Right. And so once we're honest, right, then we can just start sharing our perspectives with each other. Like you and I are doing right now, like I'm seeing this, are you seeing this? What do you think of that? Have you use this? Have you tried that? We're not in this age right now where like, we were maybe the past 1015 years where like, technology, iPhones, apps were mature as an industry. And so like, the territory was mapped, so to speak. And you could just go to someone who had been doing something for five or 10 years, and you could ask their opinion, and they could give you the answer. And that was good enough.

8:59We're not in that period right now. We're more in a period where like, it's like an explorer or like exploring uncharted territory there's of course a few there's principles that still remain true right and that are never going to change and have always been true but there's a lot of things that are kind of unknown that we're going to have to figure out together so let me ask you this you know we we talk a lot about ai replacing workforces which workforce do you think is going to go first with AI innovation? I mean, you just said, I come in and I use voice agents. Is it the receptionist? Is it the programmer?

9:44It's nuanced. It's tricky. We're in shades of gray territory. I want to avoid being in black and white territory. So let me give you a couple of examples. So there are scenarios where I could replace like a receptionist with an AI, right? Now, my hope is that that receptionist will find other more productive, more fun things to do, right? That's my hope, right? At the same time, there's going to be companies and industries that don't want to do a voice AI for their business because it doesn't match their brand, doesn't match their culture. Their customers won't be comfortable with it, right? And then there's going to be some industries where they love it.

10:25It's a good thing for a company. Like if they pick up a phone and they call a company and it's like an AI or they're like, wow, this tech company, they they're really like tech forward. Do you get what I'm saying? So, I mean, a lot of people are like, when I call Wells Fargo or bet my bank, it's an AI agent. I hate it. Right. We don't have a voice AI agent answering phone calls. Maybe after hours, there could be like some something. But like you call a finance company, you don't get a human. You're pissed. well there's the traditional like phone tree systems that we've all used for the past i don't know two decades the the voice ais are sort of different it's more like you're talking with a natural conversation like almost like a human not quite so if you've used chat gpt and you've like talked and had conversations with cheap chat gpt or grok if you have a tesla you can use grok in your car, right?

11:16It's more like that now. So it's a much more rich, better quality experience, I believe, if it's done right. And that's where I think having a good customer service background is really helpful. And that's kind of what my background is. Because I've been on those front lines, so to speak, of interacting with customers. And so I know the disconnect firsthand of like, okay, here's the BS of what management is trying to do in their meetings. And here's what the customers are like experiencing on the ground with the frontline employees and how to make that an experience that the customer will actually enjoy rather than like sometimes what I see happen is I have to be careful here because I don't want to get myself in trouble but sometimes what I see happen here is like the a management team will have an initiative they'll hire their customer service team.

12:11They'll create all of their policies. They'll teach the customer service team. The customer service team will go out and do it. And then the customer service team will learn all of this information. They'll get feedback from customers, but then like the customer service representative, their hands are tied because they aren't making product decisions. And they're afraid of telling the management team what they really think, because they're afraid that they're going to get labeled as like super negative or not a team player or, or the manager will get mad at them, that sort of thing. And so that to me is a signal that the feedback isn't going up the chain of command like it should.

12:47And so my philosophy is that in a company, the managers should be fostering a culture of transparency and frankness in a kind and candid and respectful way. So that when customers have an issue, that's where they're getting signal, right? Ideally, their representatives are talking to the customers, acquiring all of the signal feedback of what should be done and how things should be improved. Those customer reps should have, feel like they can carry that up the chain of command. And then the management has more information that's valid to go off of. So let me see. Now, let me ask you this. Where does, let's talk about where this all began, where did you get the idea of starting Lucky Day Labs and what problem were you trying to start really solve for?

13:38Sure. That's a good question. So, you know, I guess I never really, I always wanted to start a company, you know, my family at different points before I was born, they were entrepreneurial as well, but it was just, it's, it seemed like this thing that was super far off in the distance. Like I could never really do it. That was for some other people to do. You know, that was just not something I was meant to do. But I think that in the age we're living now, it's never been easier to start a business. And I have this background in the tech space, like almost 10 years now at various different companies and startups and whatever.

14:20And people started coming to me and asking me sort of like, my advice or my opinion, or if I could do this or if I could do that. And it got to a point where I'm like, I just, I got to just make this official at this point and start a company. And then the rest is history, I guess you could say. But I mean, tech for me has always been fun. Like ever since I was a little kid, like my mom showed me like home videos and I was, I was always like trying to figure things out. I don't know what it was um but like i i i look at technology like that as well and i get frustrated when things don't work as they should from like a soft like a customer experience like you've had i'm sure you've had this you call and you gotta like argue with maybe like a receptionist or whatever because of some policy that didn't go right or you use some app and like there there might be bugs or whatever and it doesn't work like i don't i don't like that like that i don't think it should be that way and it's not to say the people that are making these systems aren't trying like they are trying to provide good experiences but there's there's always dynamics at play that might be limiting them and restricting them and so icai is a way to kind of unshackle these teams and these companies that you know before they were held back by something and now what's icai icai yeah oh you said i see ai is that another acronym oh did i i don't know maybe i did yeah i i see ai do you see ai oh no no i see oh i thought i heard i heard i see you see ai as something i see ai yes i see ai as something that can you know remove the traditional barriers that stopped these well intentioned people from wanting to create a good experience but weren't able to for you know whatever pick your reason right so got it yeah man so many acronyms with all these things i'm just keeping up like a new company i know i know right let me ask you this because you've worked with uh apple sotheby's surhan and you were in the tech development space for all these organizations um so i i worked in i worked in different companies as a representative that had partners with various companies.

16:42So I mean, if you want to take Apple, for instance, I was at the genius bar. So I was a, it's called a genius expert. Uh, and so, I mean, you know what the genius bar is. Yeah. I worked at a company called luxury presence, right? So I don't know if you've heard of them, but they basically help real estate agents with their online presence. Now they're doing AI automation, but I like realtors from all of these brokerages as you mentioned, would come to me as a part of that company. And I would like design their websites for them and give them branding strategy and SEO strategy. And then I would actually design it and then launch it for them.

17:20Right. And I would support them and help them learn like, OK, why do you need to Google my business profiler? Or why does your website have to look this way versus that way? And like, why should your brand present itself as this? and who are your customers and why are those your customers? All these sort of business strategy sort of things. And I learned a lot and I did really well. I broke company records multiple times. I'm very proud to say because early in my life, I was not that kind of overachiever person. I struggled in school. So it was just a really proud moment for me. I mean, you work out, right?

18:02So when you go to the gym and you lift a weight that's more than last time or last week, it feels really good. Yeah. I did actually. On Tuesday, I broke my PR for deadlifting, 300 pounds. Congrats. Good for you. It feels good, right? Yeah. And even though it might seem silly to some people that don't work out, you can take that confidence and you can apply it to other areas of your life because it's something that you were able to improve on yourself. Just you working hard at something. i've gamified everything in my life every single variable in my life is like a game now like there's just not nothing i haven't gamified sure sure i mean i hope we don't get into like the black mirror world but i do think that it's helpful to like gamify stuff sometimes i mean because i'm always trying to get better at everything i do and i'm 44 i'm in a basketball league i'm still trying to get better at basketball sure what do you think of competition i love competition yeah yeah because that's part of gamification right like competition with other people competition with other people competition with myself competition you know like in my industry we have all the mega companies there's four competitors i try to like i discussed earlier i try to distinguish myself from from my my top competition by you know a bunch of different uh things that are unique to me and my personal brand.

19:28We've gamified all of our top teams at our company, all of our top loan originators at our company and kind of see where they're at with their production and they could track what everyone's doing. So, you know, and I do that with pretty much everything in my life, whatever it is, you know, and same, I instill that mentality, sadly, in my kids. I don't know if it's sad or not, but they're always trying to get better at everything they're going to do so i know i'd love to kind of peel this onion with you a little bit and i want to hear what you think because i think it'll be useful to me so i don't like competition really yeah i've never liked it i don't know why there were people around me in my life an athlete i played soccer but even then i wasn't really competitive um i was around people that were competitive.

20:19But then you're okay with losing. No, no. I mean, I like winning too. But okay, so this is good. I like that we're unpacking this. So my thing is the reason I always, I didn't like competition was because I felt like it was a distraction from whatever the goal I was trying to accomplish was. There's truth to that too. I mean, but to get to that goal faster, you need to have someone lighting a flame under your butt true i i see that my so my thing is is i don't like to compete with other people i like to compete with the version of myself from yesterday yeah and going back to what you mentioned earlier where you try to do better every single day better every single day there you at the end of the day and that is true that you're only in competition with yourself the only person you need to compete with is the guy the mirror that's the ultimate competitor yesterday yeah but but to get there you need to have like benchmarks sure you know so i use my competitors now there's things in my life where like i don't have competitors left you know like sure so so let me give you an example let me i want to hear what you think about this so like let's say you broke your pr record right okay that's you competing against your record yesterday you set that bench for yourself right you set that standard you were self-motivated to keep up with it and then you did it but if i were gonna say okay well if you're competing with like arnold schwarzenegger you know like you're doubled that way right you're never gonna get that exactly so like if your goal is to compete with someone else like you shouldn't like you're not arnold schwarzenegger that's okay like the reason arnold schwarzenegger is who he is is because he's extraordinary and there's tons of other examples and so what i maybe i could be with him at this age he's at now but i mean look like do you right well we might be dead lifting the same way i don't know he still looks pretty good for his age i know but you know when you're 75 you can't deadlift 300 i mean he can but 300 is still pretty hard from right so i mean look like for me competition was a negative because i incorrectly at a young age i tried to compare myself with like unrealistic standards of competition and then it was like well why even get started like why even try because i'm never going to be yes at that level do you hear what i'm saying and so yeah sometimes competition is debilitating like i'll never get to that level like why even start right but that's not true of course you should try of course we should start we know this now it makes sense obvious when we say it but you know i worry there's a lot of people that were like i was where they get discouraged and they don't even start you know what i'm saying um but it shouldn't be that one of my mentors says the hardest and you know obviously peter thiel his book zero to one zero it's a great book to one is the hardest thing to do it's like after one it's easy zero to get to one it's like that's all the effort is is getting to the start and then from there it's just consistency i agree have you read any of the the books on like habits like power of habit by charles juth pig there's the atomic habits similar thing um that book i know people say this that book legitimately changed my life but i know it's No, Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg.

23:55Do you like it more than Atomic Habits? I haven't read Atomic Habits because I was like, I looked at the summary. I'm like, this seems like the same thing. I don't know. Maybe there's new information, but. It's just a more modern version. Power of Habits is just older. Sure. But look, that book changed my life. And I know that's cliche to say that. People say that about books, but legitimately. That book and Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman. I don't know if you've heard of it. if you pair those two together or even atomic habits with thinking fast and slow I think it'll help you a lot it just sort of it was this huge unlock for me in terms of like my personal development and like what was possible and what was not possible because there were all these things in my life that just sort of held me back that you know there's this impression like you're some people are good at some things other people are good at other things and you're just born with the way you are and there's not much you can change and and those two books help me see there is a lot you can change there's some things you can't change like arnold arnold schwarzenegger you're never going to lift as much as he did right but there's a lot of things you can change right like so i encourage anyone to go read those books if they can yeah or just start with chat gpt like ask chat gpt hey what's this book about and then start there and you can go buy the book if it piques your interest.

25:13Now, when you started Lucky Day Labs, what were some of the bigger risks that you took to get this company off the floor? And what are some of the bigger risks you foresee coming in this world of AI? Look, I think starting a company is really risky because if you're an employee and you've worked as a company, there's this hidden thing that is taken care of for you. And that hidden thing, I'm sure you're aware is like liability, right? When you work for an employee at another company, they're taking all of the liability and all of the risk, right? So like if you, if you do something and somebody has directed you to do something, then that's not really your fault.

25:53That's the company's fault. And then the company has to like pay for it or get lawyers for it or so on and so forth. Whereas if you're starting a company, the biggest risk is like going from an employee to a founder is now you're responsible, right? Like the buck stops with you, right? Yeah. So that's scary, legitimately, right? You've got to make sure you dot your I's, you cross your T's, you can't let things slip through. Like now if I go and I implement like a voice AI system for a company, like I've got to make sure that that thing is well put together, right? I can't just be like, thank you, sir.

26:29Have a good day, right? Like if you're working for someone else, like, oh, that's their problem. Maybe some people think, right? No, like it's my problem. And I got to make sure that I'm not messing things up in their company, right? Because if I mess things up in their company, they've got bills to pay. They've got vendors to pay. Like they've got employees that have to have their own things to pay as well, right? So, but look, we have legal structures and things in place to help encourage entrepreneurs to be able to take that risk and get a little bit of shield like LLCs and corporate structures and things like that, which is good.

27:09I'd like it to be easier, but the fact that we even have that I think is a miracle, like genuinely. Yeah, just some sort of corporate veil. Right. I'm constantly amazed at like working inside different companies. I'm sure you know this, like you see working with other people, even just like calling other companies, how many things go wrong and i think it's a miracle that like society and civilization and culture exists the way that it does and more things don't go wrong yeah you're right a lot goes wrong but we just sweep it under the rug or we just don't disclose it so sure and not the like i mean look we've got air conditioning we've got like relative security right like we've got like plumbing and food and and the planes take off and the cars drive and i don't know it's just like a kind of a miracle to me every day that that's happening so that's like my baseline you know i try to remind myself of so hey that's we got thanksgiving coming up so that that spirit of thankfulness is always in the works let's you know let's talk how ai like what what do you think uh what problem is lucky labs solving right now in a way that feels exciting human and necessary so two two different things right now that are really on my radar and are bringing me the most amount of joy number one doing things like this and having like really frank candid conversations with people like you and other people to help them sort through the noise and kind of comfort their fears um i find a lot of enjoyment out of that um technology like ai has been a really unique trend that's been different than any other technological trend that i've seen in my lifetime yeah when i was growing up there were these two camps of people i felt like maybe this is true maybe this was just anecdotal but there were two camps of people there were people that were wanting to adopt technology and then there are the people that just wanted to keep things traditional okay and most of the trend was people wanting to adopt technology that was the hottest thing we had the internet we had computers we had iphones like that was the cool thing to do when i was growing up and for better or for worse

29:38ai is the first time where even from people that are in technology and technology like literate and work in tech they were like hating ai and there was only seeing like the negatives of what it could do and it was a very like fear and anxiety i mean software engineers are the biggest ones that hate it because they're like right it's it can do my job right that shocked me at first i thought it was just like on the surface like there wasn't any depth to it but everywhere i went i found that sentiment and i'm like okay i gotta do something about this because I get where people are coming from. Everyone's afraid their jobs are going to get replaced.

30:19This was like two years ago. Everyone was afraid their jobs are going to get replaced. So on and so forth. I get the fear, right? I was afraid too. But isn't that kind of, I mean, Amazon had some of the biggest layoffs. Facebook had huge layoffs. All these big companies had big layoffs. I mean, was it AI the cause of those layoffs? That's tough to say. It's really tough to say like why layoffs happen inside of these big companies. Unless you know someone that made that decision, I really don't think we're ever going to know. We can all surmise and like kind of guess, but I don't know if we'll truly ever know the real reason.

30:52But look, I think a more accurate picture, if I was going to take a shot in the dark would be the future is unpredictable right now because of the transformational moment we're going on. Not only just AI, but like, look, there's wars going on too, right? And so these companies are looking at the future and they can't make the same like sure decisions that they could have made maybe in the past decade. And so they're adjusting their risk mitigation strategies accordingly. So that's just how I was going to take a shot in the dark. But look, like people were afraid their jobs were going to get replaced with AI.

31:27What I'm actually seeing is that the barrier to entry gets lowered because of AI, right? So you gave an engineer example, right? So now you don't have to be an engineer to make an app with Lovable or Claude or take your pick of OpenAI's codex, whatever it is, right? Now anyone can make an app. So if you're a software engineer, you're sitting there and you're like, well, what am I gonna do, right? So that's where that fear comes from and I get it.

31:58But it's true that it raised, it lowers the barrier to entry and makes the floor lower so more people can get in. But it also raises the ceiling of expectation at the same time. So it moves more like this or more like this, I guess you could say. So more is expected of that software engineer. So if you're a CEO, you want a prototype of an app in a day, not two weeks. It used to take two weeks, a week, right? Depending on the situation. Now it takes a day, two days. It used to take months. Sure. For some prototype. Sure. Right. So now that means if you're a CEO and you're sitting at your company, you're like, huh, I can do 10 prototypes in a quarter, which means I can potentially take two or three times as many products to market or features to market as I could before.

32:53Which means now I need more engineers, not less engineers, right? Or I can certainly keep the engineers that I have because now people's expectation from software, from customer experience is going to go up as well, right? You're using this old phone tree system. You're not using this AI that can just understand what I'm saying. I have to have these weird keywords to get to the right person. What is that? That expectation is not acceptable anymore. Because clients are interfacing with, give an example, ChatGPT. If you've used voice mode in ChatGPT, you can have a full conversation with it. The expectation is not, well, Siri, why can't Siri do that?

33:37Siri's been around for like 10 years. Why can't I do that with Siri? Some people say Siri's terrible, right? I don't know why we can't do that with Siri. Why doesn't Siri like that now? Exactly. You probably will be on version 18 and 19. We'll see. Look, I've heard Apple is making lots of different improvements. There's a whole controversy to that. But look, that's what I mean. Expectations are raising, but it's also easier. So I frankly think that it's one of the best times to be alive if you can adopt this stuff. and what's exciting about this that's even different than the past is you can talk in plain english anyone can go to chat.com and talk to chat tpt for free just as they would talk to their parents or their siblings or chat tpt.com both yeah oh they have both sites i think i think opening i spent like millions of dollars to get chat to.com it's crazy yeah that's cool yeah um now i want to talk about two things one is you are the forum leader for open ai what is the forum leader job description what do you do for open ai and how did you get that job sure so um i found a lot of people don't know this so if you go to forum.openai.com you'll find that they have a forum there.

35:00So they do virtual events, right? So like, there was a virtual event, where they hosted a museum curator in Paris, and they talked about how they're using AI to help educate museum guests as they go through the museum and inform them on, you know, different art pieces, right? To we had like, neuroscientists talking about how AI is helping them with their scientific research and helping move things along and increase the pace of research. And there's discussion forums where someone can go and they can just have a discussion, like the old school forum days, I guess you could say, are the classic forum days, right?

35:38And so my responsibility as a forum leader is just to encourage AI adoption in local communities. So I'm in that if you go into the discussion boards, you'll see me there. There's a virtual event. You'll see me helping encourage discussion there. I had the opportunity to go to an education guild summit at the office in San Francisco a couple weeks ago. And that was just to collect a bunch of educators from across the country to sort of figure out what does the future of education look like with AI. So all of these are sort of like what I like to call humanities based, artistic based, humanistic based approaches to kind of see how do we figure out this AI stuff together just by having conversations with each other and sharing what we're doing.

36:26So that's how I sort of see being a forum leader.