Wahoo's Fish Tacos Wing Lam | Coffeez for Closers with Joe Shalaby Ep. 39

0:03What's up everybody, welcome to another episode of Feast for Closes where we dive deep into the stories of industry leaders and innovators. Today, we have a special guest who has made a significant impact in the restaurant world. From blending Mexican, Brazilian, and Asian flavors to creating a unique dining experience, he's the co-founder of a beloved restaurant chain that started right here in Costa Mesa, California, and has grown internationally. He's not only a hyper-successful entrepreneur, he's also a dedicated community advocate supporting education, health, and many different environmental causes.

0:44Get ready to be inspired by the incredible journey of Wing Lamb, co-founder of Wahoo's Fish Tacos. Great to be here, Joe. Always fun to tell the story of how an immigrant can do it, and so can you. I love it. I love it, Wing. And we bonded on that, you know, both immigrants, both founders of different companies. You just happen to have a very, very successful internationally known company. And it's just been such a blessing to know you, get to hang out with you on a couple different occasions. And this is our first coffee date. Yes, it is. It kicks off well. I like to start the show off with all my guests with the same question.

1:27And that is, what is Wing Lam's morning routine? Morning routine. I wake up and I call it Old Dark 100. right? These days includes walking the dog, you know, because they like to go out and pee before we go pee, right? But normally I'll either hit the gym or go surf, you know, or sometimes when I'm lucky, I have enough for, you know, time for both. Then I can make sure I get home in time to make breakfast for my little guy, Levi, and either take him to this now in the year when summertime, I take him to the junior lifeguard, you know, camp, or I'll take him to school. And then it's off to work and go make plans and see what we can do.

2:05Nice. What gym do you go to? I go to Equinox. Nice. We're actually going to have the founder of Equinox on in a couple of weeks. That'd be great. Great gym. Yeah, but that's a commute from the peninsula. No, no, no. In Newport, there's one in Huntington Beach. Okay. So you go just right down PCH. Yeah. Nice. Beautiful gym. The new one in Huntington. Stunning. Oh yeah. You can see the oceans right there. now what i want to get uh ask you and uh you get this question asked a lot like first off where did you get the concept for wahoo's well the idea is you know when surfers you know first get their permits you know driver's license before 9-11 it was much easier to drive across the border so the first quote-unquote surf trip you make outside of california back in the 70s 80s whatever was across the border down to mexico and what happens when you surf you get hungry and what do you eat along the beach is mostly fish tacos and the question was always how come nobody does it here and the answer pretty much is nobody everybody loves to eat them nobody wants to make them yeah so that was the inspiration and the name wahus how did that name wahus my kid brother mingo went to a wedding in hawaii and we were jockeying you know we wanted to call the restaurant after a fish like dorado mahi mahi redstone we were like every fish under the sun you know marlins whatever we can come up with and nothing just sounded interesting and fun my brother comes back and he goes hey what about we call it onos which is hawaiian for everything is delicious yeah like what a great idea but just like in the mexican version of nova nova i says what if somebody says instead of oh no this is oh no i'm like we're not going to go there right because oh my god you're right if they put the accent on the wrong part of the word and then they said well the other word for ono is wahoo and i had never heard of it but then they said yeah wahoo so it goes oh my god wahoo's fish taco what a great name and this was way before yahoo was around so that's how the name came about and we just actually me and my son were fishing in hawaii and i didn't know the wahoo the ono is the fastest fish in the ocean yes it is it's the most sought after sport fishing game you're i mean to catch a tuna mahi mahi all those are great but if you catch a wahoo it's unbelievable yeah we caught one um uh we were just trolling so that the boat caught one yeah like no one really caught one that but the boat caught one because we were trolling quickly but it was amazing we ended up eating it and it was just an awesome experience to just it's delicious and the good part for us is unlike all of the other tunas most of the wahoo caught they never turned it into sushi so it's basically the only way to really eat it is cooking it right you could eat it sushi though right you could but for some reason it's never i've never seen that anybody's because it's not like a fatty you know like a tuna so it's they're very lean very lean because that's why they're really fast so the whole idea of eating something that really in relative terms has no flavor right but when you cook it it tastes more like chicken than anything else yeah you guys actually cook a wahoo there like you import them well we are the largest buy your oahu in the united states wow yeah we buy a lot of it and that must be so expensive to import because they're the hawaiian fish yeah it's very very expensive we buy as we know futures in the fish so before the boats ever leave the dock we already bought it so that's the only way we can afford to turn it into tacos because we buy a lot of it and we buy you know ahead of everybody else and in relative speak relatively speaking with the cost of fish right now you guys have a great it's a great deal to eat at wahoo's in comparison to anywhere else right now to eat fish you're basically eating the filet mignon of tacos when you eat wahoo's fish taco because it's the most expensive cooked fish tunas obviously because depending on their size could get much more expensive but you're going to get you know a quarter of an ounce in a bite not four ounces fillet yeah so yeah you get a great value by eating wahoo's yeah and it's still i mean and we talked about this with margin compression now how are you coping with margin compression in a market where the food is the most expensive in the world right now we're all scratching our heads trying to you know nickel and dime our way out of this whole thing but yeah labor is going through the roof uh food cost is going through the roof uh we just got a report on our salmon salmon count right now just telling everybody out there it's anywhere between 25 and 40 percent down production from last year harvest so you're going to see prices in the next two to three months you know go 25 to 40 percent higher on salmon on salmon that's not good because we love salmon in my household yeah so there get ready when you see it now you remember oh yeah wing was telling me back in august that salmon's gonna skyrocket it's gonna skyrocket yeah by the time this show airs on its normal cadence like people would be like it already went up yeah so what is salmon going to cost per pound like on well if you right now let's say it's eight dollars a pound it about be towards it eight dollars a pound i'm just saying if it was eight it'd be like 12.

7:10it all depends what you're buying yeah farm won't be it would be different because they can control the farming but again farming is not necessarily the best thing to buy but the wild caught stuff which is what we use it we got reports today it it's it's down so that means the price is going to go up so you only use wild caught salmon at wahoo's only wild farm not farm yeah what if you pivoted to farm well it's just i i don't necessarily want to eat something that's farmed so i don't serve what i don't want to eat you know because i got to eat there every day you know you know because i do a lot of events so i'm always testing the food that's why i love our fish because i can guarantee nobody in the world is making fish tacos out of wahoo yeah yeah and i you're right you're right it's just too high quality it's high quality it's very pricey let me ask you just because this has always been a question between and a debate between me and my wife it's like what's wrong with farm it's not what's wrong is what they feed them so if you did it properly you know like chickens everything else you're eating what they eat right so if you end up giving them like you see salmon that has really bright colors well there's some food dyes in the food that they're eating right because salmon naturally isn't that bright yeah right so texture size right so like cows right if you want something you know i hate to think about american came up with corn fat well cows don't normally eat corn as a staple right because it's sugar so if you think about it you're fattening up the cow so think about production right the only cost involved in fish chicken any of the proteins we buy is the feed so if you can get them as quickly as possible to bigger size spending the least amount of possible you know there's no harm no foul if you're not the one eating it so if i know what i'm eating i'm like i'd rather not eat that you know because i know that they're not eating something that i wouldn't necessarily want to eat right that's amazing that you maintain that level of quality at scale amongst a national food chain yeah it is not easy to do i'm saying commodity wise on the other side like the beef the chicken the pork we're all buying relatively speaking the same product right because they're doing the best they can to kind of keep the prices down and all that but on the fish side i have the option so i opt not to you know go to any of the farm stuff Now, the Wahoo is on Bristol.

9:41That's the first one? That's the third location. Where's the first one in Costa Mesa? Over by Hogue Hospital on the west side of Costa Mesa. That's the first one? Yeah, the little shack on the corner. Yeah, that's the first one. Wow. Laguna was the second, and Bristol and Baker was the third. That's amazing. And now how many are there nationally? There are 52 locations and one in Japan. And at its peak, pre-COVID, how many were there? I believe there were 64 locations. You lost only 12. About a dozen, yeah, about a dozen. And we talked about this briefly, but we could let the world know. How did COVID impact Wahoos?

10:17Well, it was like everything else that was not listed on an essential. So I think supermarkets, gas stations, and something else were at the top. And then everything else was considered non-essential, right? But then on the bottom as a footnote, they said, oh, yeah, restaurants can stay open. well nobody read that far down so on wednesday when they announced in california that everything was going to shut down by friday two days 85 of our business disappeared like our restaurant became a ghost town so we literally lost 85 of our staff so most restaurant had a cashier a server and a cook three people that normally would have like 15 20 on a shift wow so it was like oh my god So basically everything was just trying to keep the lights on.

11:06But in L.A. we had these scenes called the looters and the riots, whatever that was going on in L.A., right? So L.A., that's where the majority of stores that we lost were in L.A. So that got shut down pretty quickly. And we were getting ready to close like five additional stores. So I went to my kid brother and goes, well, what do we need to do? Because we need to find a way to get them to like stay afloat, like get people in the stores. I'm like, I can't find people to come in. but I had just started delivering food to hospitals that was going to expire anyway. So once I did a couple of those, I'm like, if I can keep this going, I can maybe save five stores.

11:44And my brother goes, yeah, this is great, but somebody's got to pay for it. And I'm like, okay, back pre-COVID, we would always donate to every charity event. But I always remember at the underwriting meeting, there'd be somebody who goes, hey, somebody need to underwrite the centerpiece somebody needs to underwrite the valet somebody needs to underwrite the photographer and i'm like why are we always giving the food away why can't we run of those items so i asked all my charity friends i'm like what do you need when he goes well since all the galas golf everything got canceled can i have some of that money so we can use for this they're like sure why not and one of the first companies that you're gonna laugh when your buddies um what do you call loan depot was like yeah Tony Shea goes we got money and I didn't know that they were going to have their best year in 2021 in 20 right but they're like yeah we give you some money because you've been helping us so I got a little bit of money bare paint yeah everybody's at home doing home improvements they were flash free cash the CFO and I went to you know same fraternity together we got a little bit of money so all of these charity guys say there's nothing else going on and goes what are you going to do goes i just need to cover my costs so i can go deliver meals to the essential frontline workers so i started going to hospitals police fire so i didn't make money but i kept the lights on and i was able to save five stores so i created this movement and somebody says well how can we be a part of it as well you can either come with me donate money or if you have a service so monster energy drink gave me all the drinks hint water gave me all the Waters, Monster, you know, Yogurtline gave me all the yogurts, Cliff Bar gave me all their bars, and then I had treats, dessert, drinks, and burritos to take to all these frontliners, and then the people that didn't have a product was, well, can you give me a little bit of money, and they all said, sure, because they had a bucket of money set aside for charity events, and nothing was going on, so four years later, we're still doing it, because now instead of going to a hospital which we still do during like say prostate breast cancer all these different national times that we celebrate you know the people that take care of us but we'll go to brown mcdonald house we'll go to casa we'll go to all these local charities say hey how can we help you take care of your volunteers so the movement is there and you know we find money people that have money to say hey can we take our kids and go with you well yeah bring them so that's what we do We go out.

14:11How often do you guys do that? We do it like once or twice a week. We do Red's Lives at least once a week. So I'm going to get. You're going out on these charities? I go out, yeah. We'd love to get our company involved. Yeah, we'll get you guys to help us out and go. And your people will be like backpack drives, school supplies, computer monitors. We'll get the equipment. And when we deliver, we bring food, treats to the kids. And your people help us do all of it because nobody's getting paid. We're all volunteering. No, we want to be a part of like more of a local charity too. because it's here in Orange County.

14:41And we can decide who, it can be the benefactor, so we can do beach cleanups. We do anything we want. So we created this, instead of just being Wahoos, we created this movement called the California Love Drop. And we have great partners, KTLA, you know, the news people help us. KLOS is an amazing partner. Heidi and Frank have been behind us because giving us a platform to thank our partners helps everybody justify, you know, because somebody goes, well, who's going to know about what we did? And we're going to be talking about it every Friday on the radio. So we have a platform where we can thank people for helping us.

15:17That's awesome. And anyways, we don't need the thanking on a public forum. We just need to be of service. And our number one pillar here at this organization is to serve everyone you possibly can. This is great. It would be a great partnership. Yeah. Yeah. So this would just kind of line up right with our servitude mindset here and just give people another outlet. And more importantly, like those who don't have their kids doing service work, this would fall right in line with the kids being able to serve as well. Absolutely. And it's fun because like half of it is work, half of it is fun. You know, because we just did a luau for SEMA, the Surf Industry Manufacturers Association last week on the beach.

15:55And I got to hang out with all my old pro surfers. Right. So it's fun. You get to be there. you're making a difference because all the funds being raised go to involve my rental funds right so Surfrider Foundation Coast Keepers they all get that money but we're having fun we're having a couple of cocktails we're eating great food and you know and you get to hang out with really fun people yeah yeah that's awesome yeah thanks for letting me know about that and we're definitely getting involved um now I want to ask you about your entrepreneur journey at what age did you realize you wanted to be an entrepreneur you know my parents wanted us to all get a college degree By the way, my parents still own a restaurant on Bobo Island.

16:32It's the Shanghai Pine Garden. It's been around for over 50 years, right? So they've been entrepreneurs. But they said, we want you to get a, we call a real job, you know? So my oldest brother became an attorney. My second brother became a doctor. And I became, quote unquote, a semi-engineer, I call it, right? I went to work on the space shuttle out of college, right? But as I say, I didn't realize that corporate America, their structure. structure my first two brothers didn't have structure because they were technically even though they were an attorney and doctor they were their own bosses where i was working in the department i had you know rules and regulations to follow and it was kind of like wow this is kind of really like cut and dry boring way too boring way too boring and talk about the box right there was a box you couldn't get out of your box right and i'm like oh my god and i'm gonna be doing this for the next 35 40 years of my life i'm like you know there's got to be something i'm out of here but at the time it was more like hey no I'm not having that much fun and my kid brother Ed was getting out and I'm like you know what this corporate America thing may not be the best gig Ed was a doctor no Young's a doctor Ed was graduating from college and he's you know three years younger than me and I'm like four brothers there's five of us right three in the business so Ed was in college graduating and Mingo was still in college right so Mingo got forced into the business I don't think he ever wanted to be with us but he didn't have a choice he was like I was like, well somebody's gotta keep an eye on those two guys, right?

17:55So Mingo kind of come in, and it's been a pretty good journey for him, right? But Mingo didn't necessarily wanna be here. He was getting ready to go to law school. And my brother that had the law office goes, you guys should all come here. And we were literally, I had taken the ALSTAT, and I was thinking about it, but then after my little experience at Corp, we go, I don't know if I wanna be wearing a suit all the time, and I goes, Ed, what do you think? And Ed goes, you know what? Why don't we do something more related to the action sports. So we sat around and we literally wrote everything on a napkin and he goes, you know what, I think we can do this.

18:28And we borrowed a little bit of money from my mom and dad and we started while I was in Costa Mesa. And literally no plan other than to have a place that he and I could go to work. The problem is there's not enough money in one restaurant for two people. And all of a sudden we go, maybe we should get a second one, right, so we can split it. And then all of a sudden we go, well maybe we should get three, so the three of us. and then the rest kind of like took a life of its own we started opening more you know that's awesome how many states is wahoo's in we're i think four states right now and uh like outside of japan we have one international yeah and any plans to grow like in every single state we've gone back and forth at one point we had more states the problem is like say covet you know operators that didn't necessarily follow the rule so i'm going to tell everybody don't get into i call food manual labor thing if you're going to be an absentee owner because i think typically you know a lot of franchises there that don't necessarily have to cook everything from scratch those are relatively easy to run because there's manuals and you literally press buttons it's two minutes one minute it's relatively like you know cut bags and you know take out of the freezer whatever i'm not putting it down but that's the system right it's relatively you know easy to run Yeah, I can't imagine the complexity of Oahu's.

19:47But we make fresh salsa. We make a lot of stuff from scratch. So, again, it's not like the tomatoes and the salsa come in a bag. I mean, there's fresh tomatoes. You've got to cut them. You've got to dice them. Green onions, all that, and you mix it together. That's how you make pico de gallo. So part of it is our own fault because we chose to make everything from scratch. But part of it is the reason why we're successful because people realize that we make easy good food. So you've got to take the two, right? You can't scale good like that. You can't see it and then you can't buy that many Wahoos anyway.

20:17Yeah. So, so part of us is like, okay, I wish we would have made things easier. You know, and again, of all the proteins, you can screw up fishes at the top of that list. 30 seconds in, that thing's over, done, right? So everything that we do. Especially in Wahoo. Yeah. It's the hardest fish, the hardest salsa, everything. So if we made cooked salsas, things that you, you know, like you see in the salsa bars, those relatively speaking, you can bag them because it's all cooked. But fresh stuff like, you know, guacamole, all that, needs to be done when you make it because it turns in like half of the day, it's gone, right?

20:54So that's part of the give and take. You know, if you want to keep fresh, you got to make things literally, you know, twice a day, three times a day, right? So there's a lot to it. And that's, again, part of what I love what we do, part about what I hate what we do because I go, oh my God, I can't believe you screwed up. And then I realize, hey, I'm asking a kid to cook something that I've been cooking for 36 years, right? So give him a little break, let him feel it out, and then he'll learn how to cook it. Let me ask you, because you're an immigrant and I'm an immigrant, and, you know, when you go outside of the immigrant trajectory, which is what your first two brothers were, which is doctor, lawyer, and that's what every immigrant wants for their kid, and you're like, Mom, Dad, I'm going to start my own business.

21:37Not only that, I'm going to enter the restaurant business, which you're in, which you probably hate. Yeah. how did they take that they didn't like it at all because their whole thing was we didn't send you guys to go to college get a degree and come back and work with your hands that's what they consider a restaurant working with your hands now your mind but it took a while but 13 years into the business literally 13 years it was the year 2000 right we opened in 88 and we ended up in a commercial for Merrill Lynch, a national commercial. And my mom and dad are in the commercial with us. It was about a small business and what do you do and the American dream, right?

22:15So here we are making tacos, a bunch of Asian kids from Brazil. And the entire Asian community goes, we used to make fun of your kids because they realized that they're Chinese born, whatever, but they're in Brazil, whatever, that they're not supposed to be making tacos. They're supposed to be making Chinese food. And now we're here. We are in a national commercial and my mom and dad are in it. and the best part we all got paid to be in it like we all got like 20 000 bucks to talk about what we did and literally put us on the map because it was one at the time i believe one of the first brands out of orange county to be in a commercial of any sort that was on a national basis and this is before at the beginning i called the food network and all that so nobody in orange county was seen outside of orange county other than like i said an in and out or somebody that was already you know they've been around since the 40s right but we're talking outside of in and out of carl's jr both that were been around for a long time nobody knew about any really other brands from orange county how did you get on how did you get on the map like that well because merrill lynch food well merrill lynch had a broker uh dominic alvarez that was friends with my little brother mingo and they said hey we got a memo that says hey do we have any clients that are minority-owned business, and there's something interesting that can basically talk about what they do.

23:32And we submitted, and there were over 650, I think, applicants across the country. And out of the 650, about 30 of them got picked. And then they interviewed us on the phone. And my kid brother, Ed, was on the phone like, so what's the big deal? And my brother goes, hey, where else in the world can a Chinese guy sell Mexican food? This is the American dream. And the guy goes, what are you talking about? He goes, well, didn't you see the look at the pictures and they look down you know a while they're talking to my brother on the phone they're like oh my god there's three Asian kids surfing making tacos and he made for a great content it was a city checked all the boxes is and more important we gave him the slogan for the campaign the American dream which we didn't know that's what it was so out of the 36 got picked of the six we ended up with over a half of the campaign's budget so we ended up on the air almost nightly for a year so you talk about giving a company that has 13 locations 60 plus million dollars in marketing you know what that does for your brand wow it just puts you through the stratosphere everybody that came to california had to go to wahoo's because they were like we saw you on tv we saw you on tv and we're like what the hell's going on but literally our lines you know have had 10 people it is very unique i mean just skyrocketing chinese kids cooking fish tacos and newport beach yeah it's like the only three chinese in all of newport at the time pretty much definitely the only three chinese people in the beach surfing so we're always the only ones you know pretty much wherever we were and then you know back then i still had the short hair like yours i said you know what if i'm gonna be embracing this i'm gonna let it grow and see what happens so the facial hair the hair kind of grew over time and you know your signature look It's like now everybody knows Mr.

25:21Miyagi beard. Yeah long hair and it's been that way for decades I mean because I've seen pictures of you and oh yeah publicity and it's always been 30 years at least Yeah, always been that look Do your brothers have that look too? No, it remained, you know, very traditional because they got to go see the bankers in the attorneys and whatever Yeah, cuz you're the only one really in the limelight like I am you're the face of Wahoos Like I didn't even know there was anyone else. Yeah, I do all the events and that's really the main reasons It's like, hey, they have their families. They want to, you know, I have mine too.

25:52But it's like, hey, I like being. But you waited until you were like 45 to have a family. No, I did. No, 55. No, I started young and now I'm in my 60s. I still got again. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay. It's round two. Yeah, round two. And it's great. So you have older kids too? I have a 37-year-old, yeah, Greg. And then I got a nine-year-old, Levi. And it's awesome. I mean, this little guy, I mean, dropping him off today at the Junior Lifeguard is awesome. Yeah. Yeah. You talk about that. That's awesome. kid so you have a 37 year old son too is he in wahoo's no he's got his own little company that he started with his boss and it's they're doing really really well so he's also chose the path of entrepreneurship he's done very well yeah that's good because he's gonna get support from his dad who is an entrepreneur yeah who understands entrepreneurship in america yeah yeah like for me obviously obviously entrepreneurship was not the route that my parents wanted because my dad's a doctor too and of course yeah and he goes what do you mean you're not going to med school like you want to survive and like yeah there i have no neighbors in newport that are doctors not one exactly nobody in newport beach is a doctor i know everyone's an entrepreneur i know i mean even though still i mean in my in my mind like for my kids like i know that being a doctor is probably the least path of resistance yeah because you just go to school and then you get a job and it's nine to five and you're guaranteed a good salary and you don't gotta worry about how you're gonna make bills and struggle or work as hard as we do yeah I mean, but then once you're really working and jiving and grooving, you'll never work it in your life.

27:19That's right. You get to do a lot of things that most people never get to do. Let's face it. There's only one Wahoos and there's only one e-mortar channel. So the probability of success or mega success is very rare versus everyone who finishes med school is going to get a six-figure job. Yeah. The failure rate is, what, 90 plus percent. Yeah. But the 10 % of us that make it, it's not a bad life. Yeah. It's an awesome life. Yeah. So let me ask you this on that point. Is there any specific skills or mindset that one must have in order to succeed in the restaurant industry? Well, in any industry, I would say it's like, you know what you know and figure out what you don't know and surround yourself.

28:01I always say with smart people that can, you know, bring those skill sets that you're missing, you know, they can compliment you. but also always make sure that you understand what they do because a lot of I think successes and failures happen because people don't understand what they don't understand and they don't understand that they don't understand is what I'm getting right so if somebody steals money from you but if you know what you're looking for and it's harder for them to try to get away with something so if you know your numbers you know like in other words you don't need to know the job but you just need to know what the job does you know if that makes sense right so you can kind of keep people eye goes, am I moving forward?

28:38Does this make sense? Like we've done these actions. Should these be the results? Are we short? Are we more? You know what I'm getting at? So you can kind of say, okay, how are we progressing as a company, as a business, right? Because the last thing you want to wake up is one day goes, oh my God, we made all these strides and here we are losing money. How's that possible? Well, because you didn't really understand what the actions that that were being taken, what the ups and downs of it is. Like what's the risk, what's the reward, all that stuff. So always make sure that you keep an eye on. You don't have to know what they do, you just need to know what they do.

29:14Does that make sense? Yeah. So that's, for me, it's like having two brothers in the business with me. Yeah, because the attorneys, the CPAs, the brokers, everything that's happening from a business and this and that, I know just enough to just go, okay, Ed's got it, or Mingo's got it. So we always know that because we always say what is good for Wahoos and how is this helping us? This is not about, hey, am I getting something out of it, right? So a lot of people in business, you know, whatever position they're in goes, hmm, I could really benefit. How can I line my pockets? Yeah, you know, whatever that means.

29:48And then all of a sudden, if the alignment of their pocket is not in the same alignment as the company, something is going to give, right? And it's usually the company, not the pocket. it and I found that you know having my siblings in my business even my business partner we've been best friends since 14 years old my brother works with us my sister works with us yeah you know they don't have a vested interest other than the company succeeding exactly because it's if the company succeeds we all succeed it's when I succeed and I really don't care what happens the company that's when you got to be careful with and there's a lot of that going around I mean and it's just you know people if you understand I mean most of the people they're selfish.

30:25I'm going to help myself first and then help everybody else second. You know, and if I go down, I'm going to make sure everybody goes down before I go down. Right. So I don't think that's a good alignment, but as long as everybody says, Hey, the company's first, everybody else comes second, then that's a good alignment. Yeah. That's actually great advice. Yeah. Now, um, what do you think was the biggest motivation for you to start Wahoos? Was it a mentor? Was it like just the vision was it the fact you wanted to surf all day no it wasn't you know the idea of surfing all day was there but that didn't work out that well because you know the parents being chinese goes you got to work if you're going to take borrow our money guess what we want to make sure you keep an eye on it it was mostly i guess to tell the people around because hey we can do this right and corporate america is for some people but not for us right and we wanted to really be different right because here we were you know just kind of like you know grinding it out because it It wasn't that much fun.

31:21So it wasn't like so much anger. It was just to say, hey, I think we can do this and we're gonna prove all you guys wrong, basically, that we are a lot smarter than you think we are. But all my friends said, do you realize, though, one, you're Asian? Well, yeah, you don't think I know that. But they were like, and you're going into what? A business that is 90 % failure, right? Why don't you just take over your dad's restaurant, you know? He goes, no, we really wanna make our own brand. And so we went against everybody and we're still here. It worked out. I mean, you know, what you've done with Wahoos is a true testament to like the American dream because the failure rate is insane.

32:00It's probably higher than 90%. But the fact that you did it in Mexican food as Chinese immigrants. Yeah. That's like, I don't even know. You're one of one. but there's funny part is we open the door there's a whole generation now they're about 10 20 years behind me that you know whenever i run into them they go say thank you because when the argument came with our parents or our friends they're like hey wing did it we can do it too and they're like you're right you know it's possible but before us you know the possibility wasn't really there people like well really nobody's done it but now you know it's a little bit i'm not saying easy it's a little bit easier for at least to get started to convince your friends that you can be done because they see us and goes okay well who's has done it right but it's still a lot a lot of hard work behind you know in front of you now we talked about this and i'm gonna circle back to this is wahoo's is like i think one of the original godfathers of guerrilla marketing oh and i the way i knew about wahoo's as a kid was from Ed Rock the Mullet.

33:08Yep. And Wahoo's taco flyers were, stickers were everywhere. Everywhere you parked your car was a Wahoo's sticker. Yep. Especially at the beach. Yep. You couldn't go anywhere in Newport Beach, Huntington Beach, anywhere without seeing Wahoo's. Yeah. On everything. Yep. Stop signs. Yep. You know, and you guys started that. Well, you know, we piggyback on the surf industry, right? so the original guy Dan Flecky owned a company called Flecky Silkscreen so and then he went on to start Black Flies but back when he started he came into the restaurant and being a kid I'm like oh my god we'd love to get some stickers and stickers by the way are not cheap but Dan goes well I'll make it so we can make it for you guys so what I'll do is when I have a sticker sheet I'll throw in a couple on the end you know basically for you guys so we just you know had a few right and eventually when they started black flies they were making a lot more stickers and then they was well we'll make a whole sheet for you guys and we'll just trade so it became affordable for us because they're not cheap again i mean because remember you can't just buy one sticker and a sheet there'll be like 30 slots right and 30 times 100 sheets whatever it's a lot of stickers so we basically said well what are we going to do as well we're going to do a lot of events for black flies so we can trade for stickers right so it was our way of doing it And the more we traded, the more parties they started having, the more stickers we would get.

34:32And the cycle just kept going, right? So it was like this unlimited amount of stickers forever. Now, I mean, we do spend a little money buying it because Flecky no longer has, you know, screen print. But you're also not doing guerrilla marketing as much. Yeah, not as much because when you're small, it's easier not to get caught. Yeah, now you see a Wahoo's taco sticker and you're going to be like, I'm just going to go find Wahoo's. Yeah, you're just going to go find Wahoo's. Wahoo's.com, whatever. but back then it was also instead of you know putting banners which cost more money than stickers all these things cost money so stickers was a really great way to tag places and let people know you're there kind of a thing and again guerrilla marketing was all about marketing yourself without paying big bucks you know so eddie was our guy so there's still some guerrilla marketing tactics who's going out there slapping stickers it's not you no but we give them to the kids and the kids do it now because that's how all those surf brands do they give them to the kids and the kids go out and boom boom boom you know they cover the skate parks the surf parks whatever it is they just put them on the trails they put them in a lot of places you're not supposed to but we're not doing it the kids are yeah that's awesome yeah i remember i mean that's really like how wahoo's just just catapulted they were everywhere yeah it's everywhere you went yeah um now let me ask you how did you get started in the uh you know in the extreme sports industry and how did you dominate extreme sports like not only did you start in extreme sports like you dominate like every pro skateboarder surfer i mean and then now you're you're in uh like hockey stadiums and basketball stadiums and you know well the thing is did it always was did Did it start with extreme sports?

36:12It started with surfing. So the real story is we couldn't afford to go in and sponsor anything that was legitimate anyway. When I say legitimate, it's like basketball games cost money. Football games cost money. Everything costs a lot of money to put your banner or your sign anywhere near any of the games, right? Surfing and skateboarding and snowboarding in the 80s and 90s, nobody cared about. it was basically what we call athletes that by most standards were kids that couldn't do the real sports they're like oh yeah the guy is not tall enough to play basketball so that's why he skateboards oh the guy is not good enough to do this that's why he serves it was mostly that or oh yeah he can't really swim fast enough so he's surf whatever right so around the world you know it's a really cool thing but in terms of i could call it you know recognized sports by the olympics and all that it was nowhere on the map right the x games didn't exist so when you would go to a surf contest or a skateboard contest you were lucky if there was anything there to eat or drink because there was no budget for hospitality this isn't like a football you know game in college or something like that this is like a bunch of guys getting together and some brands go say we'll put up some prize money or have some money for you know the judges and whatever but there was zero left for hospitality so when i approached the billabongs in the quicksilvers of the world and say hey can i come and do this with you guys and says well we can't pay you for any of it because we don't have a budget for it i'm like well you guys make t-shirts and shorts i go yeah i goes can we trade for it and i'm like you're gonna take a thousand dollars worth of t-shirts and shorts i like why not i can give them to my vendors i can you know give them to my staff i can give them to anybody I know.

38:01And then maybe I can trade for more beers, I can trade for more whatever I can trade with, right? You're bartering with with that's awesome. So that's how we did it. And then all of a sudden we did one surf contest. And all the kids that came, not all of them serve for billabong. Some of them serve for quicksilver. Some of them were O 'Neill. Some of them were gotcha. They went back and told their team managers, guess what, we just went to this contest. And they had wild who's there we should have them at our event and then i would get a call say i heard you did this for quicksilver or you had the billabongas can you do this with us i'm like sure and it was like just trade again and then all of a sudden we became synonymous so when skateboarding started when snowboarding we were doing all of it and people like this is crazy i mean there's no real value here right because only the people that were there but goes yeah but these kids i'm betting that some of them will end up somewhere down the road and sure enough they've been in the olympics summer and winter they've been at the x games all these events so was that you know so today yes i'm synonymous with it but back then everybody goes who's this dummy that is willing to you know bring a grill onto a beach and you know and not surf and everybody else is surfing around him you know because it was me you know so i did it in the snow i did in the skate parks motor you were working for shorts i was working for shorts and t-shirts yeah you know that that that idea like it sounded crazy probably at the time oh it sounded crazy and dumb but my brother's like what are you doing but it that's what catapulted you guys yeah now you guys are like the the and and this this is a testament to people listening like you may think your idea is crazy yeah but look at what it did for you now you are the kingpin of these sports events you're at every event you're at you're in every big stadium here in socal yep and it started with you just giving away food for shorts and t-shirts yeah and the coolest part is like the other night when we did the luau for sima the first guy i ran into is a former world champion sean thompson from south africa and he used to be part of a brand then in the 70s called instinct and it hasn't been around for 30 plus years he bought the license back and the first thing he goes when you want to do something together and i'm like hell yeah so this is the kind of conversation that you know i've been doing it for so long they all know that i'm crazy about doing collaborations partnerships and that's really the key to all this is when you find again going right back to the skill sets that you don't have i don't make clothing but somebody who does let's do something together so whatever event he's going to come up with so we're going to meet up you know and talk about some of the opportunities and see what he's got in mind and i'll see what i want to do and then somewhere in the middle we're going to do some really fun stuff collaboration is everything collaboration yeah yeah and that's another one of our one of our company pillars is community and collaboration because you know that's how we're growing as a company yeah we have 900 independent people here exactly but but these independent people all have a unique skill set they all have a different talent that they can bring to you yep it can catapult your business that's it yeah that's awesome the story of wahoo is just so fascinating just because it's a cultural icon especially here in southern california which is you know a hub for culture globally oh yeah this is where i mean coolness you know between surf culture, skate culture, everything, sports, everything's right here, you know, mountain culture, everything's here.

41:39Um, and you're, you're at the cusp of it. You're one of the founders of like, cool. Hey, I still look cool. I just made cool, good food for a lot of cool people. Yeah. Like just every cool person that everyone knows. Um, so like you look super cool what are some of your hobbies and interests you know like what i love to do is i love to surf still i mean as much as i can i like to snowboard because i actually my group of friends we run the u.s snowboard association so my joy is not only being able to do it it's taking my friends and their kids to do it so this last winter you know my son decided it was time to go snowboarding so my pride and joy was getting him into the snow and holding his hand and having him go you know down the hill with me so that to me is exciting I love golfing I wish I had more time to golf still you know and basically that's you know and then going to you know amazing concerts and you know hanging out with amazing fun friends on their world tours I mean all these garage bands from the 90s 2000 whatever now the world tours I so it went like the green days of the world you know dirty don't they live in newport yeah yeah they all have houses here uh but yeah they're touring the world right now uh the guys from dirty heads the guys from offspring you know there's a bunch of really cool bands out there that you know we met them when they were you know we're young i mean blink 182 when they were young and now they're touring the world you know so it's fun to be able to say i knew them then right when they were playing garage bands you know stuff yeah you know everybody yeah so it's fun yeah and then and being able to bring my friends along for a ride that's the really cool you know the whole take me along a ride for the blink oh we will yeah yeah we'll go out and see those guys they're they're fun guys i mean just it's it's just something to to check off your box right yeah like going to a concert is awesome being on that stage when they're performing in front of 20 30 40 50 000 it's just a whole different experience i can't imagine and it's just something you'll go check you know i've been there you know like even a game you know being on the field check you know just some of those things you know but then you take it a step above like you go on stage you're you're and then then then you're done then you go backstage now you're cooking them food and then you're putting a smile on their face on their kids face yeah and that's the real fun yeah and that's the joy right there you know like there's so much joy in feeding someone yes there is and again it's breaking bread together it's super fun it's just something that goes since the beginning of time yep yeah when you break bread together it's just there's so much associated with that joy absolutely especially when you're the one preparing it serving it and you're seeing the smile on their face oh yeah a lot a lot of fun like i said like at the summer x games they're eating and then they're going out and competing they come back with a gold medal you're like well thank you you know thanks i won this gold medal because you put a smile on my face that's right no problem yeah i got you next time like i'll get another one yes yeah um so what is uh i'm gonna ask some some some cool mantras you like to live by sure so what's your favorite quote you know the quote is more of like the only book i remember to this day is siddhartha gotama it's about a you know i call it a uh monk right that spends his life searching for the meaning of life right and at the end of the book you know the monk you know know he's in his deathbed and one of the other guy comes because dude i spent my whole life searching and i never really you know found it he goes that's right instead of living it you spend your life looking and i'm like because so many people are not happy until right instead of being happy with what they have they're always saying well i'm only going to be happy when i get this and when you get it you're like now i'm only going to be happy when i get that so it's okay to want it like you know so the thing is enjoy the moment while you're searching for you know me aspiring whatever it is next but enjoy it now as well and most people don't enjoy the moment that's i think the biggest thing because they're only if i'm like well if that if never happens you're never going to be happy right so the whole thing for me is like you know enjoy you know so like yes i wish i had a bigger whatever right but if you don't enjoy what you have in the moment right so that there's a lot to be said because the people that enjoy the moment and you'd be surprised because there are you know those guys that work in a factory and friday night comes they get their paycheck and they go bowling and they're as happy as can be and that to me is like i wish i could do that but in my head i'm like okay i can't work in the factory but i wish i could just go bowling fridays and be happy right because but that is the moment right that's truly enjoyable being that camaraderie your friends and just that right but to me it's like well i'm only going to be happy if i do this or that and so so sometimes i wish that i could just simplify because i'm like oh unless i'm at the stadium and da da da da right so part of me sometimes i'm at you know my worst enemy too but i said you know what i just got to be more enjoyable So like surfing.

46:59See, in that moment, I'm enjoying it, right? Yes, I wish I was in Hawaii surfing better waves. But right now, Newport doesn't. I mean, Newport's waves are, I was just in Hawaii. We have better waves right now. Yeah, I know. I'm just saying, you know. So again, enjoy. Yes, it's okay to wish for Hawaii, but enjoy the moment. They're not always that great in North Shore. No, they're not. But they're not always great here. But you know, you got to enjoy it. Yeah, you're right. We're at this podcast right now enjoying it. Enjoying it. This is the moment. Yeah. um what do you think is the greatest life lesson that you've had i think it's watching my mom and dad you know just like what they've done in their lives the fact that they've outlasted all their friends what they've done for the buddhist although your mom and dad 93 years old they're still working there no they're retired but they're a fact that they're just you know enjoying themselves but what they've done for the buddhist church and all the community things that they've been involved with is always putting other people first you know never really worrying about themselves you know and at the end of the day well that's a pretty good you know again way to live and inspires you to basically say hey put other people first don't be so self-centered things are going to be okay for yourself just take care of everybody else you know that's awesome great way to live yeah and then what do you think is the greatest hardship you've ever dealt with and how How did you overcome it?

48:16You know, there's been a few, I think, you know, like losing family members, right? My oldest brother passed away, you know, about 10 years into the business. That was the lawyer? Yeah, the lawyer. Yeah, he was in a car accident. And again, it was unexpected. You know, so now one of those who was old or whatever, he just got in a car accident, right? So that moment, it changed a lot of things, you know, because it was unexpected. and we've had a few other, you know, incidents like that where, you know, people have died and it's just one of those where you're like, wow, you know. But in terms of all the economic stuff, we've seen all the recessions, all these crazy, you know, market collapse, the internet boom, the real estate.

48:57Yes, it sucked, but you get over it, you know. But the people, they're not going to be here, right? So having friends, I mean, just found out another one. Today, the worst phone call I get is when somebody says, did you hear? And I'm like, it's gonna be somebody's happened, right? So I got one yesterday. It goes, hey, did you hear? I'm like, oh, here we go again. That was about salmon. Hey, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was about a friend that was riding a motorcycle that I used to ride with. And a car, a truck, whatever, a tire came off the wrong side of the freeway and instantly hit them on their bike, killed them.