🪒 ADAM SIMONE // LEAF SHAVE & SMOOSH FOUNDER

0:01I'm Sam Rose and this is Commerce's Chaos, the podcast where we talk about what really happens when you're scaling a consumer brand. No fluff, no fairy tales, just the hard real life moments that every founder faces. From inventory nightmares to PR wins gone wrong to that sinking feeling when your best-selling product just got knocked off, we're covering the chaos that comes with commerce. Because if you're building something real, you know

0:24Adam Simone:it's never as clean as the highlight reel makes it look. Okay, right on. Well, welcome, Adam. Adam, you've built two successful consumer brands, Leaf, Shave, and Smooch, or I should say Leaf, Shave, thousands of people switching to sustainable shaving, and Smooch, which is a newer venture, and you're tackling wasted body care. I hope I'm getting all that right. You've got all that right so far. Leaf is the older of the siblings, and Smooch is a wee little one. And with both of them, though, there's a theme. You're tackling the same core challenge, sustainable alternatives that work better than conventional options, in addition to being sustainable, which is like a value prop of itself.

1:03Yeah, yeah. We always try to lead first with product, like a better product. And then that helps people be a little bit more sustainable on their consumption. And I love that angle because I think one of the challenges that many consumers have with sustainable options is that they're making a tradeoff, like a qualitative tradeoff or a functional tradeoff in the name of sustainability. And many people do. And I mean, that's like a great and right choice to make. But what I really admire about what you're building is that you don't have to make that compromise. Yeah, I actually refer to that as the paper straw problem.

1:34I mean, we've all used paper straws before and they are a more sustainable option than plastic ones, but they just kind of suck. And so it's hard to get widespread adoption when you don't lead with product that works as good, if not better than the less sustainable option. So that that is absolutely at the core of like what we try to do as product people. Well, at some point we're going to have to talk straws because I do how to beef with paper straws. And I made silicone straws, which I have my own environmental notes about, but it was a better for you and better for the environment alternative.

2:10And, you know, one of those like really simple ideas that was then just like kind of took off as, of course, Leaf Shaves Moosh are both doing like a systematic way that you identify these particular opportunities. Like you weren't the silicone straw guy, but you are the shave and smoosh guy. I wish that it was more systematic sometimes, but it is, it's largely not. I do everything that I do with a partner. His name is also Adam. So we've been business partners for about a little bit more than a decade, give or take. And we are both product first people or engineers. And so we tend to lead with the problem first, opposed to a particular holistic approach to where do we want to be in five years?

2:51In fact, Sush started off with us trying to solve a problem for leaf customers. The problem was that we make a shade bar for leaf. And shade bars are more sustainable than gooping in a squeeze tube or a can. But the usability of them inside a shower, it's just a bit harder to get a really glorious lather from them. So the idea of making a kind of a forever lather for the bar itself. And we started off designing the Smush product to help shave bars be better. And then we realized it was a little bit bigger of a problem that we were solving. So we just wanted to do a new brand that is around body care and body washing in general.

3:32So that was completely random. It wasn't planned. And tell me a little bit more about that decision point of like, why not continue to call it leaf shave? Yeah, that was a really hard decision to make. Part of it was the ultimately when we decided it had a bigger scope than just shaving bars that we felt like we had the opportunity to build a different kind. It was had to kind of be a different kind of brand. It's a little brighter. It's more fun, you know, in order to engage a different kind of audience. You know, our razors tend to attract people of like a tighter demographic band. And Smooch has customers who are 80 years old that have like reach issues or accessibility issues.

4:16We help children build better hygiene patterns when they're younger. It's just a completely different user base. And so it deserved its own way to work. How much do you look at what the competition is doing in order to define an opportunity or define how you're going to play in a specific category? Yeah, I mean, almost never. We are way too busy looking at ourselves and our customers to spend too much time on what the competition is doing. I mean, I can't say that I'm not cognizant of what else is out there. But I, for example, try not to, I don't tend to like subscribe to competitor emails. I don't tend to visit their sites because I kind of want to make sure that we're doing our own thing.

4:57That said, I have made friends with a lot of the competitors in my space, especially on the leaf side, which is a more mature business. And we talk shop in the background. And at the end of the day, although we may be competing over the same customer, we're all just trying to do good work. And so I've felt like competitors aren't really the right term for them, business, I don't know. I mean, I think one of the things that comes up for me really, really narrowly is just how to engineer a better product. And sometimes the answer to that engineering conundrum is like, let's just pull it out of effectively thin air.

5:33And then sometimes it's, okay, let us look at every review that's ever been written and buy every product that's ever been built and create a list of our own kind of like pain points, must haves, have to haves opportunities and engineer toward that. And it sounds like from what you're saying, you're more of like the blank slate approach. Is that how hard is that? That is totally fair. And yes, that is where we tend to drive most of our development from. It starts with like, what is the novel, what's the novel application we can make to a product that helps solve a problem that is particularly narrow at first that then we just like keep peeling the onion back to figure out how to like make the product better and solve bigger problems.

6:15For example, for smoosh, it was how do we make a solid bar of soap just to platter better? And that like generated into this whole brand and product identity that we could develop. at the LEAF side, it was how do we make, how do we hold classic safety razor blades in a form factor that is more modern and that just spins out into this whole other thing. So while we do try to pay attention to customer pain points and needs and we do survey our customers and understand where their heads are at, we have big swing internal ideas and ambitions and we kind of really focus on those without too much distraction and hope that it lands.

6:57I think your hopes and dreams are coming true. It's working. Thank you. So far, so good. I want to talk about manufacturing for a minute, if we can, and sort of the path to production. Your products require precision manufacturing. It's not just like a blunt instrument, if you will. Do you have a step-by-step process for moving from, say, that idea stage where it's a little bit blank slate, big ideas, into prototyping? And then from there, kind of like walk me through your process from getting from idea to prototype to scalable production at the level of precision that you're doing. Right. Wish it was that linear, as you know.

7:35But, you know, for us, it does. Honestly, the path depends on whether we are building a product for existing like manufacturing and supply chains that we already have in place versus if we need to build a new supply chain. And that can depend, as you all know, on like, well, it doesn't use similar manufacturing processes and materials that we're familiar with and our partners are, or we started from scratch. But most of, at this point, on the manufacturing side, we have very good partners globally in different markets with different capabilities that we know how to identify which one's going to be the right fit for what product we're going to, which makes the process a lot easier.

8:13It is still pretty circular and circuitous. It's one step forward, one step, half step back kind of thing. But for us, it starts with an idea on paper. And we work around it in our mind and paper a lot. Then it goes into CAD because we're mechanical engineers and we like to put things into the computer and start visualizing it dimensionally. It goes from there to prototype. So we have rapid prototyping capabilities in-house that we utilize. And that stage is where it tends to stall and work back and forth for quite a bit of time. We look at usability, ergonomics, we identify with quality challenges are going to be because there are precision instruments that require a high degree of confidence coming out of the line.

8:54Once we solve that stage, then we move it over to our manufacturer's partner, and it almost always starts with a high-fidelity prototype. So we don't go right to manufacturing. We'll go from printing plastic options to go printing or machining metal options. And the process, the manufacturing process to machine something is going to be obviously different than high volume metal manufacturing. And so that is another leap that then has to be made once we prove out kind of high fidelity prototyping capabilities. And it's that design for manufacturer, that leap that is the next big spinning. It can take months.

9:31It can take years. It takes as long as it takes to make sure that we get the product right on the other side. And it requires a high degree of trust and autonomy and intelligence from our manufacturing partners. They are highly skilled at translating good designs on paper into good designs for manufacturing. And that is a partnership that takes years to build. Yeah. And I think that there's a shorthand that needs to come out of that over time with the highly skilled teams on either side of the table so that the product doesn't end up as a Frankenstein at the end of the day. which is so often what happens when not enough time and care is taken at that stage.

10:10I think it's probably one of the things that requires the most patience from an entrepreneurial team or a product team is just like, nope, that's not it yet. Yes. And honestly, you're never done. Like even when we're in, if we're making the 200 ,000 piece of this one item that we've made 200 ,000 times, you know, it's still like, did you change something without telling us last time? Because this looks different. And because of that, that requires us to build our team from a quality side. We have our own in-house quality team on the United States that really digs in and has direct ownership for managing that relationship.

10:50I'll tell you a terrible story if you tell me one of yours. Has that ever gone really, really wrong? It has. And in fact, it started with the ambition was to build some redundancy in our supply chain. As you know, there can be risks associated with having a single source supplier. So for our primary product line, we began what ended up being about a 12 or 18 month secondary supplier process, quoting process. We narrowed from several down to one, and we began building that production line process that I just talked about, which is like prototyping into high fidelity prototyping, into building molds, into building that redundant system in place.

11:28And we got hundreds of thousands of dollars and 18 plus months down the line. And this was four years ago and we have yet to receive a single sellable usable product. We have severed the relationship but are still in severing negotiations with this group. It is really painful. It's risky. It is one of the challenges that If it had occurred with our first go at this, with our first manufacturing partner, we may not have a business today. We're lucky that we have the ability to absorb some serious losses and figure out how to offset those. But that costs a lot of consternation, and it still does.

12:08Yeah. Well, and on top of the money, the time, like the opportunity cost in the market and for you individually as a builder, you know, to be like problem solving for a bad manufacturing relationship or a dysfunctional DFM process rather than just like spending your time growing or building a new thing. Exactly. We only have so much time in the day and the week. You don't want to waste your time on stuff like that. Yeah. OK, well, now there's now I have like two or three stories to tell you. I want to hear it. I'll do one and then the next. So we designed whisks at my first business. By the way, I own some of your whisks and products.

12:46Is it falling apart or is it still intact? Still there. Yes. By the way, as a maker of things, that question hits really close to home. I've asked that before. Did it break? Then you got one from the second production run. Because the first production run, we designed this whisk. You know, and my, the whole, the whole point was we're, we're getting it right. We're going to just go to the nth degree of, you know, nerdiness on something like the whisk. And so we designed this like really cool, not very complicated, but somewhat innovative interlocking system for getting the handle and the whisk bulb to connect to each other and never fall apart and like transfer as much kinetic force from the handle to the bulb as possible.

13:30That was the whole point. And like sort of over-engineered. And a well-meaning factory engineer at the end was like, well, you know, we could just like glue and hammer these together. And so he redesigned this like alligator tooth interlock that we had to just be like literally like it looked like a finger. And so we order 10 ,000 whisks and they arrive and we start shipping them to customers. So now we're however much money in for production and for shipping. And we'd ran a Kickstarter campaign. We'll get to Kickstarter. That's the thing you and I both have in common. And I start getting messages like two or three days later from customers.

14:07They're like, hey, my whisk fell apart. And, you know, you get one or two and you're like, huh, that really sucks. Like every single whisk. Yeah. What is it like falling apart? That gives me hard palpitations. And in fact, it's a good lesson because where there is smoke, there's usually fire. And I've fallen into that trap like, oh, one or two of these things kind of failed. And stuff happens. We make a bunch of stuff, stuff happens. 10, 20, 50, 100, you're like, oh no. Yeah. It was, to make the story incrementally more personal, my kids were really little at the time, three little babies under four years old.

14:46And every evening to try to save these whisks, which ultimately was futile. And we had to just like reorder. And gratefully, our manufacturers supported us. They like copped to the issue. And because I started pulling them apart. I'm like, wait, this isn't our CAD. This is like something completely different. And Brian and I would just sit on the couch watching Top Shepherds. We were re-epoxying these things together with FoodSafe Epoxy. And eventually it was just like, you know, we've got to call it. We cannot spend the next two and a half years every evening. 10 ,000 of something is a lot of something to touch with your hands.

15:22If you've never re-stickered barcodes 10 ,000 times or re-epoxied something, I mean, yeah, you know, you will eventually. Like that is a, it's a certainty at some point. Something like that will happen. Come work for Sam or Adam and we'll give you the opportunity. Boy, do I have a project for you. Yeah, exactly. Okay, we touched on Kickstarter for a moment and let's come back to it. You launched on Kickstarter. You raised quite a bit of money, over 115. That was for Leaf, right? Yep, that's right. How long ago was that? But what's the scene now? And would you crowdfund again? Tell me a little bit about that keying into your framework for like now is a slightly more mature business.

16:04Your go-to-market planning. Yeah, that was in 2016. And the rationale there was some of the model coming to market proof and to hopefully raise enough to offset some portion of the initial production run. not all of it by any means um with moqs in places there for our kind of production uh you'd be set our goal at a hundred thousand dollars you know strategically was maybe not like the right shit at the time i don't know how it works today but set a regular goal pass very easily and then like go up and running and we're like have we can't like sell a thousand of these might not there might not be a market for this i don't know how true not true that is but that was the rationale we passed for goal luckily and we and we were running took us a year to figure out how to actually produce and then fulfill i mean it was almost 12 months in fact and then we did go back into the well two years later i think in 2020 maybe or 2019 with our second razor we did another kickstarter raised a fairly similar maybe a little bit more um for that one and that That was kind of painful in a way.

17:13It's such a public way to go to market. I'm much more of a private person. I'm not too much of a built-in public kind of person. No, I'm getting squats. Yeah, okay. It was a useful tool and we were able to kind of tap, honestly, a lot of our existing customer base at that point. And so we looked at the results and we could just probably have done the same thing with our email lists. And, you know, I'm not sure how much like additional juice we got from Kickstarter. And we haven't gone with them. I don't think we would, frankly. I think it is still a good option for a certain kind of business, a certain stage.

17:48But I think at our maturity right now, we're just more profitable. Yeah. Well, and I think for at least your first campaign, that falls into what I viewed as kind of the golden age of crowdfunding. Yeah. Which I was fortunate to build, to be building in that timeframe as well. Which year did you go live? Twelve. But I've run nine for a couple of different brands. And then I've consulted on a number of them subsequent to that, which is my way of paying it forward to the universe. Amazing. Yes. But yeah, nine. Wow. Props. Thanks. Just if there are gray hairs, they're from that. I used to have some.

18:26Yeah, I used to have some hair. I'm trending in the same direction. Join me. One of the things that you highlighted as a sort of gamification mechanic, right? Kickstarter is like a gamified way to go to market. And there's such incredible leverage in that for founders, whether or not it's their first time in the rodeo or their fourth or fifth or ninth time, if they're really crazy. And that gamification benefits from what you chose not to do, which is to pick a really, really low target. And then you get to tell the story, the success story, and we'll fund it in 24 hours. It's like, well, yeah, if our goal was, you know, a thousand bucks, how hard would that be?

19:04Right. Or we're 10 ,000 % funded or whatever. And those elements of social proof are a totally valid part of the overall mix of what makes the platform work. I think that, and I admire your choice because I think that one of the unfortunate side effects of that and pulling on that gamification lever for businesses is that they allow themselves in so many cases to be underfunded. Like if you needed$100 ,000 for your go-to-market plan and the product to be viable and you shot a little lower and you're like, okay, well, we got 80 and I guess it's enough. And then you still make the choice to go forward.

19:43What you end up with is a product that's under capitalized and the team is under capitalized and a bunch of really quite eager customers. And vocal, by the way. And vocal. And they're like, you know, they're ready. They're ready for their thing in no time flat. And not only is that very stressful as a builder, but also not everyone makes it through. And for those that haven't made it through, I feel like there is this really unfortunate dynamic within the crowdfunding space of like people just getting burned and burnt out. There is a it's unfortunate. There is no shame. And failing isn't even like the right word, but like not landing on the mark.

20:23You try to make something new. It's a risk. And certainly on Kickstarter, it's a given risk. But yeah, I mean, you know, it's really important because expectations are high with those people. That communication is incredibly pristine and ethical. And I think that doesn't always work out. And so people get burned, which creates a harder environment for others. And we always try to approach that as upfront as possible. Even given that there were some things we were like, let's slow roll this communication because, I don't know, we've got to figure some stuff out. And that doesn't always work out.

20:54But we try to do our best. Yeah, it's a tough environment. Yeah, it is. And I think that one of the things that surprised me most was how difficult it was to be. What are the right words for this? Transparency is really challenging in a volatile environment because transparency kind of equals truth. And the truth can be changing minute to minute. yes you know and so like in an aside from it just being uncomfortable and hard to tell which i like that's a pill we could probably swallow but like when the truth is uh is dynamic and what what ought you to say and if you say it and then it changes and then you say that it changed all of a sudden you're either you know like stupid or a liar and i i just really struggled with that because i wanted to build maybe a little bit unlike you I was happy to build in in public um and uh and use that you know use storytelling as sort of a tool there I'm not saying you're unhappy to build the public I'm just building on the I would be on okay fine you say person I yeah I don't know and honestly for that specific reason and that comes up so much in just normal business running as much as like talking to their customer service team I'm like don't give a date on a product yet to be released because it may be our best intended date, but we do not talk about these things publicly because the reality of running a business and making things is it is dynamic.

22:21Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a real, it's a real struggle. You know, you want to do right by your customers. They're asking a question. You're like, well, the answer right now is this, but this is just to the best of my knowledge. And then they're like, well, you're qualifying. I'm like, of course I qualify. Yes, we are qualified. Correct. I wish there was some sort of like founder school that taught that sort of thing. Yeah. I wish I'd had a better, I think that I followed my gut successfully. But I don't think that I always, ultimately looking back, made choices that I would make again. Totally. I think that is inevitable.

22:59Sometimes you have to learn those lessons, you know, the hard way, which is what we all need. Arts on the table.

23:05Adam Simone:Your tech stack is held together with duct tape and prayers. If you're a brand founder or COO juggling Shopify, your 3PL portal, three different inventory trackers, and yes, that one crucial Google sheet, you know exactly what I'm talking about. orders get lost inventory counts are fiction and your seamless integrations break every other tuesday endless commerce changes the game one platform for everything d2c wholesale marketplaces the works ai powered forecasting real-time inventory visibility and integrations that actually integrate teams like great jones food 52 and pattern brands have already made the switch Ready to ditch the chaos?

23:48Adam Simone:Visit endlesscommerce.com. Mention the podcast when you reach out and get three months free. Because your op stack should be your competitive advantage, not your biggest headache. Yeah. And so at this point, your new go-to-market strategy is digital heavy, crowdfunding light, and also sometimes retailer focused. Will you tell us a little bit about your path into brick and mortar? You know, it's stop and go and it is immature from a strategic perspective. Like our businesses are largely direct to consumer. We have Amazon. We have most of our businesses on our website. Leaf is in a few hundred like boutique doors globally.

24:32And then, yeah, Smooch, we did bring in two urban outfitters really early on. And the choice there was a little bit less about like, let's throw some philosophy through retail and more about let's just like grab a little something we can talk about some storytelling early. And yeah, I don't know. So like strategically, I have a bit all over the board, but we're learning as we go. There's some strong potential or smoosh to a stronger potential than we think is about$100 razor. It's hard to sell$100 razor at retail. You can tell a lot more of the story online. And yeah, I don't know. I guess we'll see.

25:07I wish I had some more insight there, but honestly, the truth is, I don't know. And we just feel our way out in the dark. And it has sometimes worked and sometimes not. I feel like there should be a manual for that, too. We all need this. But, you know, I don't I don't think it's wrong to be feeling your way through at all, of course. And I think that one of the things that you've sort of availed yourself of is just like an understanding of where you're going to be able to tell your story the most powerfully. And sometimes that is really a digital shelf. I'm reflecting on, you know, like it's so funny because people say the razor razor blade model and then with you it's literal, which is so cute.

25:46Ironically, my other company has the stronger razor razor blade model than my razor company. OK, I want to come back to that in a second. You beat out razor. You've literally beat razors and razor blades at their own game. How do you view the sort of subscription mechanics of your business playing out in direct to consumer versus like being able to kind of get traction there in the retail channels? And has that impacted how you've prioritized? It's an interesting question. You know, I think one of the advantages of launching and focusing direct first before retail is you get a lot more flexibility.