🍬 ALISON WHRITENOUR // UNREAL SNACKS CHIEF COMMERCIAL OFFICER

0:00Alison Whritenour:I'm Sam Rose, and you're tuning in to Commerce is Chaos, the podcast for consumer brand founders who know that building a business is messier than the highlight reel shows. Your supplier just missed their deadline, your top product is out of stock, and your competitors somehow launched the same thing at half the price. Sound familiar? Every week, we dive into the real problems that keep founders up at night, from inventory disasters to supply chain nightmares, because surviving the chaos is what separates brands that fail from brands that scale. okay let's get to it i was so excited for this conversation um if that's not like terribly obvious because you you've spent your life doing or at least your career doing something like really hard which is to take mission driven brands and make them like very commercially serious which is i think a hard thing to do um thank you for acknowledging that i feel seen i really do um i love i want to hear the story of how you got uh started in all of this but let me just sing your praises for a moment um you started at colgate palm olive yeah i worked at the colgate building for a while and you did actually yeah yeah we're in like an elevator bank we must have yeah um and then i mean a decade at seventh gen like uh just climbing over every single function and ultimately the CEO and so much growth.

1:28And now you're at one of my very favorite brands that my children have evangelized to me, much to my surprise and delight, because I'm like, oh, you want healthy snacks? Like, yes, please. And they're colorful and fun. And yes, please. So I have a pantry full of your products. I'm so happy to hear that. Yes. And I'd love to know like the secret sauce. Let's talk about what it takes to make a values driven brand grow and like be commercially successful? Um, oh my gosh, that like, that's a, that's a, that's a huge question. I'm glad that we have time. No, I think it's a great one. I, I think like I would maybe approach the question in two ways.

2:12I think first is, you know, what's the mindset, um, that you need to have to like really be able to stay in this work. Um, And then also, what are some of the strategies and tactics that have helped move the needle from that critical inflection point of like, this is a great idea, this can change the world, to actually, you have a scalable business that's on shelf in Target and Walmart. So maybe I'll start with mindset. I was really grateful that you started the way you did. We're like, it's hard. art. I think I, you know, having especially sort of like started in some bigger legacy brands, observed a lot of big legacy brands through my like Unilever acquisition experience with 7Gen, I think probably one of my biggest observations is like just how hard it is to like ride against the status quo.

3:09It truly is. You're doing something different. And in order to do that, I think you like you really have to believe in it. You have to like believe in the work and believe in the mission and believe that in your like, at least for me, in my own very small way, I'm doing what I can to like make this world better. even if it looks like a CBG product, like that's what I can bring. And really making sure that you're surrounding yourself with people who also share that mindset, because in those like really hard moments where it's not working, or you're losing market share, or your retailer thinks it's too small of an idea and needs to see your velocities improve radically on shelf.

3:56you need people who are cheering you on. So I definitely think the headspace really matters and just like truly believing in what you're doing. And then in terms of like the bigger question around like how to actually do it, for me, especially like, you know, we can probably talk more about this in the conversation, but there's like a huge difference between the world and the categories that I was operating in at 7th Generation compared to the space that I'm in now. But at its core, I think you need a great product. I think it doesn't matter that it's a mission-based product or it's made with better ingredients.

4:43It has to be amazing at what it does. For us at Unreal, it has to taste great. In my 7th Gen experience, it actually had to work. It had to clean your clothes. It had to like clean your countertops. And I, I think like that is the expectation that consumers want. And so no matter what, if you're like thinking of a new idea in the space or like working on brands that have been at this for a long time, I think the product has to be amazing. And it's like my job and the job of these companies to do that by way of better ingredients and better science and, you know, better choices with their profitability.

5:24So that's first and foremost. And then the second thing that I like have always thought about is like really knowing who your competition is. Um, I, I've always found it really important to take note of like who's swimming in the same water as you, um, but not to think about that as competition. So these are people that are pushing water upstream with you. And certainly in the spaces that I've been, my competition is conventional. I am stealing market share, stealing dollars, stealing household penetration from big brands that aren't necessarily serving consumers the way they have been. And so really having a bullseye on your source of volume is also like one of the most important things for how you start to like think about things commercially.

6:17And then the last thing is really just honestly having an extraordinary mission that you're authentic to. And I think that's like, for me, it's so much more important that is first and foremost authentic in the company to the employees to like your day to day experience, your day to day experience with how you're building products, how you're communicating with one another. And then if you're doing that right, that's how consumers are then going to be able to authentically understand that as well. Um, so yeah, just like, just a couple of things that I've observed over my time. No, it's so useful.

6:58What a great and useful framework. I mean, okay. So just to recap what I heard, um, it's gotta be a great product, right? Uh, mission or not, it has to perform, uh, step number two, uh, no, you're a real competition. It's probably a conventional brand. They're probably more capitalized than you. They probably have more market share. this will be an uphill battle, but ultimately everyone I think is, can be generally oriented around wanting to do good things for, for the consumer or their stockholders. Maybe, maybe not everyone. All right. There's, there's a gray area there. Um, and then number three, uh, having an authentic vision and really believing in what you're doing.

7:37Um, and, and not just having it be a marketing angle. Exactly. Yeah. You got it. And I think on that third, to build on your third point, you know, you have to like operationalize like this mission. It can't just be like, we say that we want to do these things. Like you have to do it. Make it into the dough. Yes. The hardest part about that or the place where you have felt over time, like, oh man, every time I try to do this, there's a disconnect between what we're saying we want to do and how we get it done? Oh my gosh. That is a great question. It's funny. I teach a class at the UVM through the UVM Business School.

8:25That's like the practical application of sustainable business models where I literally teach about how to like start to embed this and what it's actually like to work on some of these questions around bringing mission into this decision making process so i should be able to answer this i'm asking you to compress a curriculum into a minute sorry i think like i think probably the hardest thing that i have experienced is coming down to the tension point between the right thing to do and what that means from a cost perspective And that's the tension point in all of this is oftentimes doing new things costs more because it doesn't have the scale and the ease and the accessibility that comes with time with other brands participating, with growing infrastructure.

9:20So oftentimes, especially for brands and companies that are running up against the status quo, you're relying on things that are more unproven, that don't have as much access, therefore cost more for small companies to leverage and embed in their product development process. And for us to make this work, to actually have it be scaled and have somebody make this choice over what they're doing today, we need to do everything possible to make the price points as accessible as we can. So I feel certainly in my career that I have lived, especially through stage gate processes and through the whole product innovation development process, I've lived in so many tiny moments of trying to figure out how we do the right thing without making it hugely expensive.

10:11Because the more expensive these products become, the more niche they end up being because only certain populations can buy them. And I think for me, the sweet spot is actually like, how do you get this to scale? And how do these brands and companies become part of mainstream culture and mainstream conversation? Oh, man. Okay. This is like such great. I mean, you're doing it. It's clear that you are practiced in speaking about this. And I'm grateful to have such thoughtful partnership in the conversation because I think people are really going to learn. um let's talk about cost curves how like where are the levers right we're talking about basically structural disadvantages that these small brands have in trying to innovate or grab share or both against incumbents that's a structural disadvantage um what are a couple of common levers you feel like and if common to you may be sort of like surprising and and you know like black magic to the people that might be listening to help bend those cost curves earlier.

11:20Is it, is it ingredient swaps? Is it co-man partnerships? Is it like how to address packouts or how to, how to think about retailer programming? How to, how do these smaller brands like grab onto those levers without hurting taste or performance, whether, whether it's a snack or a. Yeah, yeah, totally. Well, I think the thing that I always come back to is that growth solves all problems. So I think scale, scale, scale is really the answer. And the thing to like keep in mind as you're making short term trade ops in the beginning is knowing that how much you're going to be able to gain from a gross margin and a cost profile perspective as you scale.

12:09So just like believing in that, you know, and so much of the business case work that I've done with teams over the years, like, tell me where it makes sense. Tell me the scale that this starts to really hunt for us that we can live with that is sustainable in our business model. And let's go there. But obviously, to get there, we're probably going to need to make different tradeoffs, whether that be different financial tradeoffs in our P &L, having different conversations with our board or our stakeholders about like, you know, what their expectations are. But I think really like knowing where the math starts to make real sense is such an important North Star.

12:47But to get there, I guess I think for me personally, I have found the most value in those contract manufacturer relationships. I think oftentimes, you know, there's ways to get to ingredient pools, like ways that you're starting to like share and shoulder costs with other brands that they work with in order to like make these things possible. and especially at the beginning of a great idea or a new technology, like something that you know is going to really be the thing to push the, you know, the science of biotechnology over to the next side, like lean in on that. It matters less that the person next to you is also using the same thing and more the fact that you're going to be able to leverage it within your products, within your supply chain, within the way that you even think about your logistics and warehousing.

13:44So definitely a lot of friends and partners in those early days are so important to getting to like more critical mass on really expensive things. Critical mass on really expensive things. So it's so true. Like, yeah, I mean, we vertically integrated pretty early at a couple of my businesses And it just, it allowed us to, and then we spun ourselves into services too. And those two things parked next to each other really allowed us to be a better partner to the folks that were on the other side of the table and ultimately helped their businesses grow too, because we kept bringing friends to the table.

14:26And to your point earlier about kind of like viewing your competition, not necessarily as the competition, but also as just like the, all the little fishies swimming upstream together and like everyone trying to get to the same mission, like find, find friends that might be your competition, but like make them more friends than competition. And then like band together to make something better. Right. A hundred percent. And, and so much, especially in like the early days of getting ideas off the ground, it's partnerships, it's great relationships. It's like people honestly being willing to like lean in and help.

15:03Um, and I, I think that's one of the, probably the most fun things that I found in my early days at seven generation. And now at the life stage that unreal is that like those relationships with your partners, with your contract manufacturers, with your logistics partners, with your customers. I mean, that makes all of the difference in, um, in like getting an idea off the ground.

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16:09Alison Whritenour:Ready to ditch the chaos? Visit endlesscommerce.com, mention commerce as chaos when you reach out, and get three months free. Because your op stack should be your competitive advantage, not your biggest headache. Yeah. I'm going to take us on a little bit of a different tack conversationally and talk about like competition within the space and try and try to stand out, right? Like, yes, let's be friends, but also how are you going to scale and build a business? And one of the things that I love about Unreal in this like really crowded category of, you Better for You candy, um, is that it taps into nostalgia.

16:55And this is actually a theme that I've been, uh, I'm realizing it now. And so I'll make it, I'll make it like official, but we're talking about nostalgia. Like this season on, on the podcast, um, had the founder of Good Pop on, um, and the chief brand officer of Little Spoon and now you, and, and, and what all of these better for you brands are doing, yours included, is tapping into like us storytelling about ourselves and the piece of nostalgia where we can really like share in the building of the brand and like in the building of the community consciousness around it. And so with that as setting the table, what I want to dive into is like how do we make better for you really mean something?

17:43Like what does it have to mean operationally to earn loyalty rather than like, oh, I tried this because I'm like hungry and snacky, but, and I want something better. I don't feel guilty, but oh gosh, I don't take that good. Totally. And so I think to your point around unreal and nostalgia, like that's it. That's the magic. And I, first of all, like I'm a millennial woman. I like my whole world is nostalgia right now. if you were to go on like any of my social feeds. I think there's just this human nature right now to go back to like times that felt happy in our control. Our problems felt easier.

18:22You know, the whole world is shifting back to remembering these times. And it's so funny, even for like my kids for, you know, Gen Z, they're nostalgic to times that they didn't even have. And so I think we're all just like grabbing, grabbing onto things that make us feel good, which makes it such an amazing moment for a brand that has really been designed to take the taste profiles, take the memories of these amazing treats that you had in your childhood, but have them now, but don't sacrifice. So these things that you remember, these, you know, these tastes that you remember, they can still be yours.

19:03But now without the guilt, with less sugar, with better ingredients. And so certainly part of our special sauce right now is just really making that accessible and and making it possible for people to overcome this belief that better for you can actually taste extraordinary. Yeah. And to be honest, I mean, that's like why I came to Unreal. Um, I think especially having like lived for so long in this, um, natural world, I was like, okay, whatever I do next, wherever, whatever company I, I land in the product needs to be amazing. And so my, I need my job as a marketer to be like slightly easier.

19:51and so how do I work upstream yes how do I make sure that whatever I take on as the next chapter for myself comes from a place of like an extraordinary product and I remember sitting down with um our now our head of supply chain and he was like talking about the company and he had just like put all the product on the table and he was like just taste it just go home taste it and call me back and I got home, I tasted it and I called him back. And I was like, how, like, how can I get involved with this company? Because these actually taste amazing. Yeah. It's unreal. I like, we're, I have to, you know, not get too far ahead of myself.

20:32Um, but yes, truly unreal.

20:38Um, something that you, that you mentioned just there struck me, uh, like moving things upstream as far as possible for the purpose of really allowing the next to follow function to have its job be like as easy and delightful and effective and scalable and punchy as possible. So marketing can't do its job without like a good product. And good product can't do its job without like a good co-man. And the co-man can't do their job without like good ingredient suppliers. And I remember, um, you know, as we were building out our product line and I was so in the trenches for, I mean, for literally for a decade, just like every, every little, Oh, it's such a, I'm touching my fingers right now because it's such a visceral tactile memory for me of like touching every part of the product.

21:31And I remember, so we owned our own 3PL and I'm like, wow, there are things about the way that this is packed out right now that like I have to retouch this is hard and I'm asking like I'm asking folks on the ground to do a lot of work before we can just get the product out the door be like a repackaging thing or a stickering thing or you know a polybagging thing yeah can I move that upstream like can I bring that to the factory and have them you know in their kind of cleanliness and scale and focus like can I have them do that touch there and then at the you know thinking about them with an empathetic view it's like well what can i do in the physical design of the product to make their unmolding process two seconds faster so that like so that we can make 20 more per day or whatever it is and so this idea of sort of moving quality upstream so that you can unlock quality downstream um is is such a good nugget out of what you're out of what you're saying and i wonder if if my anecdote inspires any kind of like visceral feeling.

22:38Yeah. I mean, I think so definitely product quality. I think that honestly has been such an important learning for me through my CPG career, just like, just how crucial that is every step of the way and how much that has, I mean, I've been in CPG for like 20 years, right? So a lot has changed in the world. and even now more than ever with how much information consumers have at their fingertips how much more vital that is and so your point around making that top of mind every single step of the way I think is so important from a product experience perspective a product taste how it shows up how it feels in your hand how the packaging feels in your hand everything is a brand experience and so really weaving those two things together Oh my gosh.

23:30I love it. Like how deep can we go? How basically how tight can we knit this textile of the supply chain so that it is self-reinforcing and like beautiful? The other thing I would say too along that point, so, you know, obviously product quality is really important. I would say keeping the proposition as simple as possible is also a really vital aspect to commercial success. I definitely and I have sat in many tables where there's this existential probably debate over do you talk about mission? Do you talk about sustainability? Do you talk about what your product does? And I have like lived in my 7th gen experience through like various arcs of what leads versus what follows.

24:23And I think through that and now coming to Unreal where it's so clear and it's so simple, I keep coming back to that now just as a proof point that you need to make it your proposition, your point of difference as simple as possible. even if there's a lot of like mission-led work, even if there's so much investment in the sustainability of the product or the quality of the product, how do you just get that so simply articulated for consumers? Because that's going to make it easier for them to buy in, quickly understand, and then come back to learn more. And I definitely think there's like, Like there's a instinct in the spaces of mission and purpose led brands to like pile on all the amazing things that you're doing.

25:12And I think the thing that I've learned the most is to like serve that to people one bite at a time after you've served them. Like the most important thing that they need to understand about how amazing this product is going to be and the role that it plays in their life. Okay. Now I have so many more questions. Um, I'll ask one kind of specific one just because I'm, I'm curious and I want to hear how you frame it verbally. Like what is that one thing for unreal taste? I mean, it's like, it's taste for us. It like, it is mind blowing. Oh my God. I can't believe that something that is better for you can actually taste this great.

25:53And I think that is the beauty of that is when you can connect that point with product experience really quickly. I think like if if we didn't believe that these products tasted great, this would be a much harder, harder hill to climb. But I think you got to back it up with great product. But I think for us, this this like belief and therefore communication of taste is the thing. It's what everyone wants. They want to feel good. They want to taste something great. They're choosing our products because it serves like it serves a happy point in their day. So that's really the thing that we rally around and make sure that people get to experience and share their taste experiences as well.

26:43um that idea of belief and asking your customers to believe um counts for the team too and i think what i heard and what you were saying is that like the people creating the product really have to believe too they have to like that mission has to infuse them or ultimately it's it's very hard to have like a team that doesn't authentically believe in the mission of the product and for the product to be obsessively good too. Of course. And I think one, everyone has to be on the same page with that because there is a lot of tension in that. Oftentimes like getting to great taste and the highest quality and the most ethically sourced ingredients takes time.

27:31And I definitely feel it. So I'm a commercial leader at Unreal. I want things to come to me faster. I want things to be perfect when they show up. I want to be able to check every box for my customers. And I want to make sure that my sales team like has every tool in their toolkit. So there's one part of me that's like, I need it. I need it faster. I need it now. And then there's the other part of me that really like understands that these things take time. And for us to really continue to lean into the fact that our taste is extraordinary, we might have to be more patient and not settle for things that aren't all the way there.

28:12So that tension needs to stay healthy, but it definitely needs to live and breathe as part of the company culture to make sure that people can understand why we can't get things as fast as we can or you know this process takes time. I think that what you're pointing out is one of the things that that defines really great leadership like yours is is being able to hold that tension and also live by your gut. No pun intended. There's no way to like like there's no metric that can really express we're moving fast enough relative to the quality standards that we wish to maintain or we're maintaining our quality standards highly enough but still growing at an acceptable rate it's like you can't actually diagnose that maybe in retrospect right like you could do a post-mortem on what went wrong what went right but but you have to be able to follow your gut in that and say like these are the things that sort of the immutable truths about our brand, our product, and our quality, and wanting to also be a business that moves quickly and grows quickly.

29:26Here's where that line is. And I don't even know if the right word is compromise. It's just sort of in balance. Yeah. I don't like to use the word compromise because I feel like there you're kind of like giving something up. Yeah. I think loaded. It's just constant trade-offs and discussion around what you gain versus what you might need to make up. And that's something that I'm grateful for the number of years that I've spent in this space because I can, on one hand, be like, well, if we miss this deadline, that's Target's reset. So it's going to be another year until we get a shot at this. But I understand why.

30:07So let's hold hands on the fact that we're going to continue to chase this opportunity, but it might just have to come a little bit later. And here's the things that we can do to keep Target, as an example, invested. But yeah, I just, I appreciate like leadership tables and cross-functional tables where you feel comfortable just like putting that all out there and being okay with the fact that we can't have it all if we're searching for something that continues to uphold certainly our set of standards. Yeah. And yet you've like all of these businesses that you've touched have sort of grown spectacularly so clearly clearly you're really good at that thing I want to ask about your customers and customer education my my impression but I think it's well-founded is that like today's customer is better educated than ever we have more access to information and resources also businesses are meeting us there they're being more transparent And that is a rising tide that raises all of the ships.

31:09Um, and I wonder if having a better educated customer makes your job easier or harder, or, or I bet it's a little bit of both, but like, yeah, educated customer makes it easier and harder. Give me both. Yeah. I just like thinking that through a little bit. I do think it's both. I'm, I'm so grateful for this evolution in access to information that everybody can can have, I think it's made us all smarter. I mean, I can't even imagine now participating in conversations without being able to quickly Google something. And so I think certainly it's helped provide everyone with more access to information, gives people the right questions to ask.