💀 JAKE KOUNS // DEAD MEAT SOCIETY FOUNDER & CHIEF GRILLING OFFICER

25:10And the Dead Meat Society is about look at the society member stuff. So that's a big difference. That's really clever. Are there things for, okay, so cybersecurity, right? I love you said secret scroll. Like, does any of that translate? Like, is anything that you learned at your first business useful to you here? Or is that like totally uncharted territory? You know, it's interesting. There are some things that translate, just business type things. Yeah. There is so much that is absolutely new. You know, if I think about the cybersecurity company, right, it's business to business, SaaS, right?

25:45You know, software is a service for those watching that aren't in the tech space, right? So like, and it's, you know, you're selling to enterprises mostly of what I did. This is direct to consumer, consumer product goods, very, very, very different. So I think from, you know, finding product market fit and how do you do that and getting a product done and testing and like getting out there, I'm finding it very, very different. So that stuff doesn't translate. A lot of the, you know, the basic, I'll say management skills that, you know, I've learned over the time, setting arbitrary dates, you know, doing these things.

26:18Like those are things that I think translate, but there's some stuff that I had expectation that we could go a lot faster. And I know I keep saying this, but I thought I could test and go a lot faster than we were able to with a physical product. But I will tell you, there is something about holding a physical skull spatula that came from the lizard brain and like, look at this versus, hey, log into this software thing we created. Like it's so much more rewarding and amazing. And when, whether it's friends and family or people that have seen what I'm up to, or when we post on LinkedIn that people are like, what the heck are you doing?

26:52Like cybersecurity to like spatulas? Like they think it's nuts, but when they actually are able to hold something, it hits a little different. You know what I mean? Yeah, completely. I mean, cause I've been on, you know, that, I don't know. Yeah, I'm sort of real, but like, um, yeah, like a reverse journey of sorts. and always find myself drawn to just high adjacency with like with physical things that I can see and touch and feel. And, you know, I think that's one of the things that interests me about the software that we built is that like it is, it is enabling all of those things, you know, it's the rails that allow the whole engine to go.

27:27But I think I would be, I would be a little bit lost in a sea of abstraction if I was building anything else. Like I like to, you know, I can code. I like to build little tools for myself, but I'm never as happy building a tool to solve like an abstract, just like internet problem as I am building a tool that like helps me that I can like touch in some way. Yeah, no, I can see that. And you've got a great intersection of your career of doing products and now software to help people do products and helping crazy people like me with ideas to make them happy. So like, I see where you're going with that.

28:01But I will tell you it Like for me, switching from the tech side to here, there is just like this whole stack of tools and software and stuff that's very, very different. Yeah. And so there is some level of excitement of like, oh, what is this? And then at the same time, you're like the frustration of like, how many more places in Shopify do I have to, I thought I hit everything that I needed to do. Now I need this plugin thing here. Oh, and I'm not doing this and this. And so there's this level of like, as a founder in the CPG space, like there is, again, we've talked about this. But I don't think there's one clear playbook and stack that is like, hey, here's what you want to do.

28:38Yeah. And so there's some level of problem solving fun. And there's another thing of like the last thing I want to do, go in there and brand some Klaviyo thing. I thought I branded all those. I thought all those workflows worked. What do you mean there's one that I missed by accident? Right. I spent hours on this stuff. Yeah. Yeah. It's I always call it plumbing because it's like, you know, at the end of the day, I thought I was signing up to do one job. And then I just, but my job was so much more by just setting up Klaviyo, setting up Shopify, setting up Shopify again, setting up Shopify's connection with my 3PL, setting up.

29:09And actually I think, you know, in part, that's why we started to build our own software because I was like, I'm so sick of using other people's limited tools. Like I'm going to make this thing that will make the behind the scenes of my engine run in a way that feels, you know, like thoughtful and, you know, and feels like in alignment with all of the different, I mean, I was just stringing data together from all these different places. Like for the love of Pete, can this be under one roof? So, so yeah, I, I feel for you in the dark of night in your secret squirrel mode. Yeah.

29:43Jake Kouns:Another setting. Tell me about like your, is it just you doing this still? Are you building the team? Are you, how are you thinking about that. I know you've built a really big business before. Does that like translate here? Well, the interesting thing is, you know, in some ways I'm still like a recovering CEO founder, right? Like I'm not entirely looking to build a massive team and like have standups at like eight something in the morning. I don't like mornings to begin with. I don't want to stand up meeting, you know, like, so, so I'm trying to engineer this next phase of my life where there's purpose and meaning and I'm building and I'm doing things and I'm excited about that creation.

30:22But at the same time, like I'm not really interested in jumping back into like the full on startup thug life and going crazy. I'm having a hard time finding that balance because every time I want to go faster, I'm like, I'm the bottleneck for a lot of things because it's sort of mostly me. Now, finding great partners, like I was fortunate and blessed to find you so like I can, you know, hit you with my problems and you've been amazing when I'm texting like, Like, hey, this tariff thing is really making my eye twitch. Like, we need to talk, right? Or I've got a great guy that's helping me, you know, do the newsletter.

30:55And then another really good friend was doing, you know, all of the design. So, like, you know, I'm not at all saying, hey, this is just me. But on the operations side of it, right now, it's mostly just me. And I'm in that phase of, like, all right, I want this to be serious. So I need to treat it as serious. and I need to bring on people, whether they're, you know, fractional helping with marketing or merch or shipping or whatever, or is it time to get some people that are like, all they think about is dead meat society, brushing their teeth and thinking about dead meat society. Like that, is it time?

31:27It's a product idea. You know, just a jerky shaped toothbrush. Yeah. Hey, another product idea. You're going to design this one for me? Absolutely. Jerky toothbrushes will be a, I hope someone does that one day. I hope it's you. Man. You know, it's interesting though, like learning. So here's the other funny thing. You know, you're an expert in what you do. And, you know, I always hate to say I'm an expert in cybersecurity. It just sounds sort of bad. But I knew cybersecurity really well. You can go out and, like, look me up in YouTube, and I'm, like, slightly nerd famous on a small level of, like, did a bunch of security things.

32:00Going into the grilling space and the CPG space, not expert. So I'm not even a good griller. I, like, grill burgers and drink bourbon. I'm not, like, some barbecue guy, right? Right. So building a company where you're not the expert is also really, really eye opening. And that's actually a lens that I was I was shying away from. But now I'm leaning into of like, hey, I'm not great at this stuff. Right. So like I'm not there being like, here's how you trim and do a brisket. I'm like, I'm trying to figure this stuff out. Like, I'm sure there's a whole bunch of other people that are trying to figure this out, whether it's grilling or building a company or whatnot.

32:35And so I think that's been really something that slowed me down in the beginning because I was like, man, I don't want people I don't want like grilling barbecue people be like, dude, get off my lawn. Who are you? Some cyber nerd trying to think you can grill. You know what I mean? Yeah, I so know what you mean, because I literally took the opposite path. And when I started building software a few years ago, I was like, ah, I, you know, I mean, I've always been handy with code, but like, I don't know, building a whole, just all of the, all of the, oh my gosh, I'm going to say it. You're going to hate me for saying it.

33:07The operating rhythms of a software company. Just like, how does this work happen? I know how to make work happen, but how does this work happen? And how do I optimize that? And like, how do I get comfortable feeling so stupid all of the time? Right. Especially having come from a place where I was, you know, an absolute subject matter expert. And now I'm like, I think this is how this distributed system works. But let me go like read a 30 page blog post about distributed systems so that I'm not like. You are like me. Sometimes you know enough to be dangerous. Right. Where you're like you're reading and then you're going to people being like, hang on a second.

33:45I think it should go like this. And then the people are looking at you. But sometimes you're right. That's what's also interesting. You can hire people and bring people on. And sometimes your gut instinct as a founder is still right to push for something to say, hang on a second here, instead of just blindly taking what people tell you you need to do. So that contrarian is important. And I think that you can be a good contrarian when you're well-researched. If you're low information, you're going to struggle on some of these things. Yeah. And I think that I think that's the critical element is just being willing to read and learn and talk to people and like go find find ways to get yourself sort of better informed so that you can be dangerous in the right way.

34:26Because being dangerous in the wrong way is like being, I don't know, rude and unempathetic with someone who's like the thing you're asking for is impossible because of X, Y, Y, Z. Sam software doesn't work that way. Yeah. You know, I don't want it to seem insincere, but, you know, a lot of times like saying no, that's not a good answer. Right. If it takes five no's to get to a yes, because that it's always been done this way. I mean, whether it's software, whether it's, you know, manufacturing, there are ways to solve things. And so sometimes I think those people that have been in the industry for so long, they just have one view of it.

35:03And their view doesn't necessarily need to be the view. I mean, from a tech standpoint, vibe coding was not a thing when I was building my company, right? And I'm still not, you know, huge vibe coding fan, but you can figure out the front end of software and get really close to what you want it to look like in days where that would take months and months before, right? So like, I don't want people to go out there and think they can just, you know, go into some vibe coding software. And the next thing they have enterprise software that's going to stand up to everything. But you can get a lot further, a lot faster, and then show it to the developers and say, this is how I think it should work.

35:39So I think there's a lot of stuff that's changing. So don't ever let some IT person tell you the answer is no. There's a way to solve whatever you want. That's refreshing. I want to go tell him you said that. Well, so I, you know, I had some of that. I learned a hard lesson, an expensive lesson a few years ago, because we the original stack for our system was like it was microservices because I thought, OK, like that's how that's just how enterprise software should be done. And I was listening to some I was reading, but I was listening to some people who were giving me advice that was colored by their own experience.

36:15And that was a hot fad for a while, you know, so hot. Yeah. Well, you know what really put the, I don't know if it's a nail in a coffin. I don't know if it's that discreet, but AI and having like a single source of data to just drink from. I mean, microservices make that really difficult. So I'm grateful that I, I mean, I did learn that expensive lesson, but right before it became even more expensive, which is to say that like we rebuilt, not fully monolithically, but more monolithically later. And now I'm like, oh yeah, so smart. Yeah. You know what's funny? I think this is the other thing. And again, I think this applies to any industry when you're staying in the loop and you're reading something and you're like, oh, this is how all the cool kids are doing it now.

37:01And this is what I should do. That doesn't necessarily apply to where you are. Right. So like, you know, building new software, I wouldn't push anyone in microservices. Right. You're just trying to get something that can work and up and run and a model. It's fine. When you get so big that you've got like 10 different products and you're a bigger company now, and now you like to fix one bug in this one little thing, you have to push the whole thing. All right. Now we're talking about something that might need to be broken out. Right. But I think that's the concern sometimes is if you listen to, oh, this is the way it should be.

37:34This is the new way to do it. That you push yourself in a way that you could do that. But like that does not really, it doesn't really apply for your situation of what you're up to. Right, right. Yeah. And I think that's so important to calibrate, too, is just like there's a lot of right answers. Which one is the right one for you right now is really what you have to sort of like seek. And since that answer, since that, you know, is it's ephemeral. It's like you got to feel you got to trust your gut at the end. the day. I think even this time around for me, I think it is founder decision. Trust what you think is right.

38:09You know, you always want to listen to advisors and vendors you're paying. You want to listen to things, but at the end of the day, it's your company. You got to make the decision of what's the right, the right call. Sometimes I think people can just listen to advisors too much that don't have that skin in the game or the passion. And they're like, oh, well, you know, that didn't work out for you. Sorry about that. Like, that's not great. So your own gut decision, go with that, definitely. Is there like, okay, tell me about a couple of gut decisions you made in bringing Dead Meat Society to life that are, you know, you have maybe enough distance behind it that you're like, yeah, rear view, like that was a gut decision, but it paid off.

38:48So there's a bunch of them. Let's start with the first. So the first, and you know, you can kind of see behind me here, this risk-based security logo. Branding-wise, when you're running a tech company, like no one's going to wear a shirt with your logo on it. You know, no one cares about Endless Commerce. I'm not wearing an Endless Commerce logo. Okay. You will. No, I will, but no one else will. And your employees will and they'll proudly wear it, but it doesn't, the branding needs to make you look professional and trustworthy, but it doesn't need to be something that like, people are like, oh, that's amazing, right?

39:23And so the first best decision, Buddy Joe runs a high-end design firm up in New York, you know, worked with him and he was like, I got you on brand. And so we spent time and effort and thoughtfulness about the brand. And I won't even go into like all, because we went through a whole identity palette. What are the colors? What is the typography? And what's our feel? And what's all these, you know, even those stripes and colors, like we went through, we spent a lot of time on it. Even with the DMS skull, you see the DMS in the skull. Like that is stuff that my past life I would have been like, just whatever logo, it doesn't matter.

40:00So I think first best decision was be intentional and thoughtful about the brand. That's going to be everything with it. And that's paid out really well. The other thing, and I would say even maybe some members of your team, you know, were really trying to talk me out of the skull spatula. What? That was the whole point. Oh, I know. The number of times that it was like, this is going to be a little hard. Like, are you sure we can't just like, you know, put the logo, like laser it on? I'm like, no, there must be a skull. Like I stayed firm on that. I was not in that meeting. A number of times. It was a little wild, but it was true.

40:38It was more complicated. Someone hadn't really done that. I mean, you know, heck, even the tongs. We have skull tongs. They're so cool. Right? They're killer. but it was like you know when you're pushing for something new that you know i can't say someone hasn't carved stuff into thing but this element was it was a real like goodness how's this gonna happen right so being that unreasonable like no this will work we gotta have this and yeah you're right some people may be concerned that the stuff the it'll won't flip burgers as well because it like you know the design will cause problems and like are you don't you want this and i'm like

41:13Jake Kouns:we'll do we'll do another one we'll do just a normal turner right so i think the two things right now to answer your question is firm on brand if it really is consumer facing like make sure you're really clear on that identity brand what's it all about i mean i was even i won't say annoyed but i was trying to go fast and so when it was like man we got to like take we got to slow down and like really think about the brand and and all these things i look back and go that was the right call, right? I would have just wanted to get going. I want to get something up, but I think being super intentional about the brand and then sticking to your gut, whether it's software or whether it's a product, if the whole intention of your thing was, I want to make software that solves this problem, don't sort of take the easy exit ramp and be like, oh, I got close.

42:02Stay to the vision of what you're trying to accomplish. What is that problem that you're trying to solve out there, that pain point, whatever it is, and stay on course, get it done. You tug in a couple of really interesting things, one of which is like, okay, we really have to trust our guts, but we also have to know when to fold them or when to trust someone else's gut. That is so hard to calibrate for. Trust my gut until some moment when I'm not supposed to, and that is a gut thing, right? You just have to feel your way through it because there are so many decisions around. Yeah. I mean, just in every vector in building a brand where you really need to follow what you believe and, um, and then have interested.

42:47Yeah, you go. If we step back and we think about like leadership principles, like servant leadership got really huge over the last couple of years. Right. And it's, it's like, Hey, you as a manager to step out of the way, like clear roadblocks and let your team and just make them amazing. And they're going to do everything and like it's not about you and I think in some ways and in some companies and with the right team that makes total sense and I'm all in on it but in a lot of different ways the phase of a company the early phases of company that is not the right approach if you're trying to do something innovative if you're trying to sort of make a big difference if you're trying to go what are those kind of things you really need a more founder-led directional sort of vision that kind of pushes back a little bit.

43:29And as the company grows, there are times where, you know, and I've gone through this a lot where my team would come in to me and they would say, hey, we want to do this. And I would look at it and I was like, well, I just can't see this working. And I like could not get out of my brain of like, damn, I don't think this is going to work. But there were times that I would say, all right, let's give it, let's test it out. And then, you know, when it went down the path, like I thought it would, you know, I didn't want to be sort of arrogant about it, But there are times I think where you got to let the team go and the team's going to make things better.

44:01And, you know, even with Dead Meat Society, again, it's not been all my decisions. I've just I've had lots of people offer advice and help and I'm pulling the best pieces of it. But I'm not taking all of one sort of thing because that sometimes isn't the best. So you're right. But I do believe just like we were talking about building software at the stage of your company, you can sort of back off of some of those things. But early on, getting to that vision, getting to that brand, what you set out to accomplish, I think that has to be sort of really firmly founder led. I agree with that. And I think two things come up for me when you say that.

44:36One, there needs to be like a nuclear source of energy for this stuff. Right. It's just like someone who's obsessed and you can build a team around that obsession. But I don't know that I've seen, I'm sure in the abstract it's possible, but I don't know that I've seen a team coalesce around like organically around a shared vision. where there's absolutely no leader and have that just work on a zero to one basis without any frameworks or any like vision or any of that. I'm sure a team could coalesce around a shared mission of some sort, but like in product land, you have to have someone who's just like unrelentingly controversially obsessed with a mission to drive the traffic for it.

45:17And the other thing that I think resides in that person is a sense of risk tolerance and risk management and risk taking, which is to say that like from an advisory perspective, right, you don't want Jake to get hurt because this thing is hard. And, uh, you know, if you're an advisor, you're like, no, like have a, have a more realistic timeline because we don't want you to miss the timeline or don't do, you know, don't spend more time on the brand because of whatever, all of these things where, where someone from the outside is sort of trying to like de-risk you, but without a real intuition for how much risk you are willing to tolerate or how well you can calibrate it.

45:55Because ultimately, probably it's your money on the line. And that's one of the things I love about, I mean, I'm the beneficiary of venture backing and very, very grateful for it. We would not be here without it. I've also bootstrapped a lot of stuff. And I can say, and I've invested in the things that my investors have invested in too. So having that skin in the game is so important because you are going to be challenged to survive. And if you don't have your skin in the game in the proper way, like you won't be able to drive the progress and you also won't be able to pull back at just the right moment, you know, when like the two jets are coming to each other and both of them turn right.

46:33Yeah. You know, and not to keep beating on this, but I think timeline stuff's really important. I mean, if you've got that energy and that momentum and you're trying to build a community and then it's like a year plus later and people are like, when's that school special coming out? I mean, like it really drags down the excitement. So going faster, I think is the better approach. But I think where, where people don't always understand is that like, we can set aggressive dates. And then if we hit problems or landmines, then like, we're just going to have to accept them. You know, the same thing that happened with like, you know, was I disappointed that we didn't get things out faster?

47:10Yeah. But was it the right call? Yeah. And no one's mad at anyone. Is it a disappointment? Yeah. It's like, we could have sold a ton for Christmas. Now we'll wait for Father's Day maybe, right? So like, there's always something, but I think people usually let fear bother them. You know, they let fear get, but what if we don't hit this date? So I'm going to put all this fluff in a timeline so we can hit what we said. Like, just be transparent about it. Hey, this is, if we build in, this is what it is. If we, if everything goes our way, here's where we can compress things down. And I think that's where I try to coach people, whether they're people I'm working with or work for me of like, look, here's what we want to hit.

47:48What can we do to get that? What can we control? And with that sort of momentum going, it kind of forces us like, hey, like if you want to hit those dates, we need a decision in two days, right? And then wait two weeks for that, then it's pushed us out. So I still think that that's the right approach with some sense of reasonableness. And whether it's been in the cpg world and it guys are the same right they say oh man that'll take six months to do yeah i want it in a month well well and don't worry about all the problems let's just let's just focus on what can we get and if we need to strip things down to be more of an mb what can we get done don't tell me we can't tell me what we can do yeah yeah i and i find myself asking a lot like what would need to be if i want this then what would need to be true sometimes the answer is you need seven more developers.

48:36I'm like, okay. Yeah. Since we only have 10, I guess, what can we do? Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, it's always going to be sort of, I think people are just scared to be held accountable, right? I mean, it sounds bad to say that, but people get worried. And I think if you can remove that and have more radical, candor, transparent conversations of like, look, we really want to get this done. So let's do everything that we can versus them. Oh, we can't do that and then like like the vibes just all off like getting them aligned on like this is our intention let's see what we can do to get there and if we run into problems let's work on it quickly to solve them that's sort of that better energy is there anything about this process that has been just like a totally joyful surprise you're like i didn't realize i would like you know setting up klavio as much as i do or something like i i think for me again recovering tech founder, like learning all the software has been fun for a bit, but then when it gets operational, then I'm like, oh man, like, so I've learned for me that like the fun stuff is the zero to one creation.

49:42Like, I think I've already told you, Hey, we got two new products that I've, I haven't even really sold the other stuff yet. And I'm excited about the new products. So I think that has been the, the sort of the creation from nothing to what could be. And then like having it has just been, man, it just feels really good. And then when you actually put out a high quality product and you're not just like, you know, the first couple of times I showed people, I was like, all right, don't tell me what you like. Tell me what you hate about this. Cause like, I don't want you to be scared to like, be like, Jake, these tools gotta suck.

50:12I know you've been working on it for like a year. And so getting real honest feedback that like the idea and the execution, everything's come out. It's great. But sometimes it's hard to get that honest feedback from friends and family and people that you know. So I don't know, man. I've loved the physical element of it and then getting real honest feedback. That's been great. Yeah, I love that. I love that. Yeah, like the first time that someone who was not my family bought a thing that I had, it was like, oh my gosh, they got like, I gotta tell you, I was telling someone the other day, you know, when we put out our first thing, all the orders that I saw coming in were people that I knew, right?

50:52And so new meaning that over the last year of talking to them about dead meat or they've been in our Facebook group or on the mailing list or like so I knew that. But then when the first order that came in, I was like, I don't know that name. Like it was a big deal. I was like, I hope I hope they love it, but I have no idea who they are. And it was such a like an excitement that I didn't think I would have. Yeah. Yeah. It really is. That's like a gift that keeps on giving. Like the first time you stumble into a shop and your thing is there, you're like, oh, my gosh. Oh, man. This has been such a great conversation.

51:24I would love to wrap with any like teasers that you want to give us about what's next. You don't have to, but if you have it, great. All right. A couple of teasers. Well, first of all, if you're on Facebook, join our Facebook group. Do, you know, people post images of them cooking, even like we're here in Virginia with a whole bunch of snow. Some people are still out there snow grilling, which is amazing. And then once a week we do what we call the smoke show winner, where we we pick like the best picture and all that sort of stuff. So like join our Facebook group, join the dead meat spam. I think you'll, you'll like all that.

51:55What's really coming next is our local chapters. And so what, you know, I think we kind of told, we have a give back. We give back to the food bank here in Virginia, Operation Barbecue Relief. So they're a really great organization when there's like a fire or a hurricane or something, they come in with a bunch of guys that, you know, grill and, and help people that lost their homes and stuff. And so we're making sort of good charitable get back. But, you know, if you're out in California, like you don't really care about like a food bank in Virginia, right? And if we're talking also about getting people together, it just can't be getting together in Virginia.

52:31And so we're creating this concept of Dead Meat Society chapters, and we're trying to encourage people to get together in real life. And I don't care if they go to a park, a church, a fireside, wherever you want to go, get together, grill, and then feed people. And so like, that's really where we're going with it to get more local. And so that, you know, if you're raising money, it's for the local community, feeding the local community, getting people like, look, I love that I can talk to you online like this, right? This is amazing, but people need to get the hell out of their house and get in real life and realize we're all kind of similar and we all, you know, want to get together and enjoy good food and help others.

53:11I love that. But thank you for sharing the mission. I really admire what you're building. And I really like the way that you're building it. It's so fun to just be on the ride with you and to watch some of the journey. And you're a really incredible leader. So it's been a privilege. Thank you. Well, I appreciate it. Thanks for having me on. And we got to talk soon. We got more to do. There's always more to do. Yeah, maybe we'll do it. Maybe we'll do it, you know, over an open flame. I love it. I'm going to hold you to it. Deal. Thanks. Bye. Thank you. Thanks for joining us for another episode of Commerce is Chaos.

53:48If you're listening, have a feeling you know just how much good leaving a five-star review can do for a team. Drop us a review on Apple Podcasts and subscribe to Commerce is Chaos wherever you get your podcasts. Don't forget to subscribe to our sub stack, also called Commerce is Chaos, for more good stuff and actionable tools to build your business.