In short
Hostage families debate whether Israel should accept a ceasefire/hostage deal or continue fighting to “destroy Hamas,” amid renewed indirect talks and a proposed 60-day ceasefire (Egyptian official; Hamas says yes; Israel has not yet agreed). The episode also argues that military pressure and public diplomacy affect hostage survival and international opinion.
Guests
- Dalia Kuzner Horn: Sister-in-law of Yair and Eitan Horn, kidnapped from Kibbutz Niroz near Gaza on Oct 7. Yair was released in the Jan 2025 deal (Feb 15), but Dalia says he is not psychologically “free.” Eitan remains captive. She describes beatings during transfer to tunnels and says Eitan’s captors used a mosque during the abduction.
- Tavika and Talik (Mothers of Israel protest): Mothers of Israeli soldiers/hostages advocating “finish the war.” Talik’s son Ron was wounded, ran out of ammunition, was kidnapped, and she was told in Jan 2024 he was killed; she still hopes he may have survived. Another guest (Talik’s family) says Eitan (25) was kidnapped after saving people at Nova.
Key claims
- Dalia: Israel should accept the “Whitkoff deal” now to save lives; she argues Hamas cannot be eliminated, citing historical parallels (Al-Qaeda/ISIS; Nazis/neo-Nazis).
- She says military pressure has already led to hostage deaths (she cites 42 killed due to military pressure) and that agreement is the only path to bring hostages back.
- She criticizes Netanyahu as prolonging war for political reasons.
- Tavika/Talik: They argue Hamas must be destroyed; they claim Israel can force surrender by cutting water/electricity after evacuating civilians, and that Hamas will not release hostages while it survives.
Notable examples
- Yair Horn released after 498 days; Eitan still held.
- “Beautiful Six” executed by Hamas (including Israeli-American Hirsch Goldberg-Polin).
- References to hostage videos (e.g., “Rome and Eviatal”) and prior hostage releases (Nov 2023).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VODalia Kuzner Horn's Story
0:45 to 4:00
Dalia shares her family's experience with hostage situations and the impact of the abduction.
“After her husband's brothers were taken hostage, she became a prominent spokesperson and activist advocating for their release and the return of all hostages held in Gaza.”
Psychological Impact on Released Hostages
4:00 to 6:40
Discussion on the mental state of released hostages and their struggles after captivity.
“But as we know, the ceasefire collapsed and Hamas and Israel did not make it to the second part.”
The Call for a Hostage Deal
6:40 to 9:20
Dalia discusses the necessity for a hostage deal amidst ongoing conflict and public opinion.
“destroyed, even if it means not getting a hostage deal.”
Negotiations with Hamas
9:20 to 12:20
Insights into the current negotiation status with Hamas and public sentiment regarding their power.
“considered to be alive, but saving them and bringing them back to burial is saving their families.”
Perspectives on War and Peace
12:20 to 14:00
Dalia's thoughts on the broader implications of the hostage situation for peace in the region.
“But you can reach, in my belief, you can reach a comprehensive deal only from the negotiation table.”
The Complexity of Hostage Situations
14:00 to 14:40
Exploring the difficult choices faced by hostage families and the implications of Hamas' power.
“And this is why, if you ask me, and I'm a hostage family, imagine if it was your brother-in-law.”
Arguments for Eliminating Hamas
14:40 to 15:20
Discussing the reasoning behind the need to eliminate Hamas as a threat.
“So they don't have anyone following to just take the lead.”
The Futility of Total Elimination
15:20 to 16:00
Arguing against the notion that Hamas can be completely eliminated.
“The argument from the, you might call it the hardliners, is that we have to seize this one opportunity to get rid of Hamas once and for all, or else this will happen again, whether it's 10 years or 50 years.”
Shared Values and the Fight Against Terror
16:00 to 16:40
Highlighting the differences between democratic nations and terrorist organizations.
“There's no such a thing as finishing the job as long as you have Qatar and you have Iran who's sending money.”
The Role of International Support
16:40 to 17:40
Emphasizing the need for global unity against terror and support for Israel.
“What you can do is stay strong and stay and be yourself.”
Show all 26 chapters
The Importance of Humanitarian Aid
17:40 to 19:20
Discussing the necessity of humanitarian support for both hostages and civilians.
“On the Israeli side, I don't think that all the people in Gaza, including Hamas, the day after will say, OK, let's become friends.”
Concerns Over International Perception
19:20 to 20:00
Addressing fears about changing international sentiment towards Israel.
“because at the end, if those terrorists don't have money, they won't be able to do it.”
Critique of Leadership and Strategy
20:00 to 21:40
Analyzing the actions of Israeli leadership during the conflict.
“But once again, I believe that by choosing life and by choosing to build, and when I say build, it's not necessarily build a higher world, because that's not the thing.”
The Burden of Hostage Families
21:40 to 23:00
Reflecting on the emotional and moral dilemmas faced by families of hostages.
“Now, I can be in this place of a victim and say it's anti-San.”
Military Pressure and its Consequences
23:00 to 24:20
Examining the dangers of military operations on hostage safety.
“You have the Red Cross who's not condemning.”
Remembering the Beautiful Six
24:20 to 28:05
Honoring the memory of hostages executed by Hamas and their struggles.
“So I think that if we come together, there's a possibility of rebuilding something better for the region and for the entire world.”
The Hostage Situation and Military Pressure
28:05 to 29:24
Discussion of the complexities surrounding military pressure and its impact on hostages.
“And then the army was coming very, very close.”
Personal Stories of Hostage Families
29:24 to 33:05
Insights into the emotional struggles of families with loved ones taken hostage.
“I think a lot of people in your situation where you have family members taken hostage, a lot of people would just say, I'm not going to talk publicly about this.”
Demonstrations and Personal Advocacy
34:43 to 42:05
Discussion on personal experiences at protests and the importance of advocacy for hostages.
“different perspective on the resolution for Israel.”
Parental Sacrifice for National Safety
42:05 to 44:40
Exploration of the emotional conflict between personal desires and national interests during wartime.
“And you have staked out a different position, a position that must be incredibly difficult for a parent to articulate, which is we actually do not want to end the war on any terms.”
Winning the War Against Hamas
44:41 to 47:59
Discussion on the military strategies and challenges in defeating Hamas.
“Like you can, we can debate about what policy Israel should have, but it's clear that you have chosen what you view to be the national long-term safety of the country.”
International Pressure and Public Opinion
48:00 to 53:08
Analysis of how global views and pressure affect Israel's military decisions.
“because of the mechanics of the battlefield, because of the, for really nitty-gritty military reasons, it's just a war that they're able to fight using guerrilla tactics forever.”
The Political Landscape and Future Implications
53:09 to 56:00
Insight into the potential political changes in the U.S. and their effects on Israel.
“How worried are you about the long-term effect of international pressure on Israel?”
The Complexity of War Decisions
56:00 to 1:00:42
Explore the difficult decisions surrounding Israel's current military strategy.
“How much faith do you have in the current administration and Netanyahu to pull off a successful end to the war?”
A Mother's Advocacy in Conflict
1:00:42 to 1:02:06
Hear a mother's perspective on advocating for her son amidst the chaos of war.
“I know this is, as I said before, this is a really tough thing for you.”
Divergent Views on Hostage Situations
1:02:06 to 1:03:52
Understand the different viewpoints on hostage negotiations and military actions.
“Because I think a lot of people, they would want to be able to do that, but they're not really able to.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:05Coleman Hughes:Welcome to another episode of Conversations with Coleman. It's been over 690 days since October 7th when Hamas took at least 250 people hostage. The families have been united in a campaign to raise attention about the plight of their loved ones, but their views on whether a ceasefire is the answer have always diverged. As we approach the two-year mark, I wanted to know where the families of hostages stood now. What do they think Israel and its allies should be doing now that a new deal is on the table? First, I speak to Dalia Kuzner Horn. She's the sister-in-law of brothers Yair and Eitan Horn, who were kidnapped from kibbutz near Oz by Hamas on October 7th.
0:46Coleman Hughes:After her husband's brothers were taken hostage, she became a prominent spokesperson and activist advocating for their release and the return of all hostages held in Gaza. Eventually, Yair was released and is safely at home. Eitan remains a captive. Okay, Dalia, thanks so much for coming on my show. Thank you. In this episode, we're trying to get different perspectives from families of people that were kidnapped by Hamas. And it's a pleasure to talk to you. The first thing is my audience may not be familiar with your particular story, the story of your two brothers-in-law. So I'm sure you've told it many times before, and I know it's a difficult story to tell.
1:32Coleman Hughes:But if you could just briefly tell us from your perspective on October 7th, what did you learn about your brothers-in-law? And maybe you could talk about each one of them and what's happened with them since. Okay. So I'll start by saying that I am married to Amos, my husband, and he's the middle brother. He has two siblings. Yair is the oldest. He's 47 and Eitan is the youngest, is 38. Yair lives in a community, small community on the border, two kilometers from the border with Gaza, Kibbutz Niroz. And Eitan, the youngest, was visiting him for that weekend. Actually, my husband was supposed to be there as well.
2:13They were about to do like a sibling weekend. But luckily, my husband finished working that Friday, October 6th, very late. So he did enjoy, join that weekend. Most amazing people, funny, very loving, warm people, wants to make this world a better place. I think it's always important to remember who are they, that we're talking about just human beings. On October 7th, both of them were kidnapped. I think it was an hour after the attack started. Around 7.30 in the morning, we lost contact with them. We didn't know what happened, but they stopped answering. And both of them were taken into Gaza.
2:54We know that on the same day they were taken to the tunnels. I think they took them around like four hours. They walked them from place to place and the Gaza population would come and beat them with big rocks and pieces of wood. They would go around with them as if they were the trophy and they were screaming, we have a Jew, we have a Jew. And all the people would come and just hit them and beat them. And the last place they were taken was inside the mosque. And people came inside the mosque and beat them. And this way they become injured because they were not injured in the abduction. And since then, they were in the tunnels.
3:37It was released after 498 days in the January 2025 deal. It was released in February 15. and we were hoping that agreement would be concluded and would go into the second and the third phase. And in that second phase, Eitan was supposed to get released as well. But as we know, the ceasefire collapsed and Hamas and Israel did not make it to the second part. And we still have Eitan hostage.
4:10Coleman Hughes:So has Yair talked about what his experience was like as a captive? So unfortunately, he's not talking about it. I think he wants to protect the family. But more than this, he's afraid that something bad will happen to Eitan. So just imagine I was, I just mentioned that he was released on February 15, which is more than six months ago, but he's not really a free man. He is physically walking around among us, but he's not here with us. And his head and his thoughts, everything is back in Gaza. He's not willing to go through rehabilitation, not physical and not psychological. And just imagine what they went through.
4:56We know the torture and the starvation. And we know that the only thing he says is that it's hell. It's hell. No other word to describe, but he's not going into details. So for us, people say, you have half job done, you know, you have 50 % back. And I say, first of all, no, Yair is not a free man. And second, we need all the 50 hostages. So we as an Israeli society and as a nation can start rebuilding ourselves and, of course, the region. And for me, it's part of the story. I believe that the key component to a better future here in the region for the Gazan population as well is that Hamas releases the hostages and they leave Gaza because the Gazan population, I believe that they're being held captive as well by this terror organization way too many years.
5:57Yeah.
5:58Coleman Hughes:It's also possible that before Yair was released, Hamas told him, if you talk too much about what happened to you, we will harm Eitan. It's possible. Yeah. Yeah. It's a very disturbing situation. I want to talk about what you think should happen right now because the latest polls I've seen, and obviously I'm American, I'm not Israeli. I read the American news and I read some parts of Israeli news, but it seems like just over 50 % of Israelis want to end the war and get a hostage deal, even if it potentially means leaving Hamas in power for some amount of time. And something like 30 % of Israelis believe Hamas has to be destroyed, even if it means not getting a hostage deal.
6:45Coleman Hughes:So what is your opinion on what should happen with the war? And why do you think that should happen? So I'm glad that you have those numbers. I want to add you another number that we have here in Israel, according to I think it was a poll made three or four weeks ago, 84 % of the Israeli population wants to see all the hostages back, even if it means the end of the war. And as we know in polls, it's always depending, the answer always depends on how you ask the question. But if you take this 84 % and you understand that most of those who voted to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu are included in this number.
7:30That means that Israel wants the hostages back. And I feel comfortable saying that it doesn't matter what the price. Why? Because unfortunately, we know that you cannot eliminate Hamas. The same way that the U.S. could not eliminate Al-Qaeda nor ISIS. And let's go 80 years back in history. We, the Jews, we have the trauma of the Holocaust. And the Allies, the United States and UK and France, and even together with Russia, they could not eliminate the Nazis. And we still see neo-Nazi parties here and there. And we see a lot of antisemitism rise now around the world. We cannot eliminate an ideology.
8:17We can save life. And what we need to do right now is save as many lives as we can. And that means doing an agreement right now. And there's a deal on the table, and we're talking today, the end of August 2025. I hope it's not going to be too late, but there's an agreement right now that was made and prepared with the mediation of Qatar and, of course, with the leadership of the U.S., and it's called the Whitcoff deal. And I believe that Israel should accept that deal now, yesterday, a month ago. Two months ago, Israel accepted to that agreement, but Hamas said no. And now I think it was a week ago that Hamas said yes.
9:03And now Israel is not taking it. Now I understand that they want a comprehensive deal and they want to eliminate Hamas and all those kinds of things. But I think what makes us so special and so unique is the fact that we sanctify life. And if you want to sanctify life, so it's more important to save now those 50 hostages, even though around 30 are not considered to be alive, but saving them and bringing them back to burial is saving their families. And of course, the living hostages that, as we speak, they can get killed any second, Or maybe they starve to death already because a month ago we saw the horrible video of Rome and Eviatal.
9:43So we need to take that deal. There's no such a thing as a good deal to Israel. When you release terrorists from the Israeli prisons, it's not a good deal. It is a deal that saves lives. And Israel is a strong country. And it has all the security that the U.S. is willing to be part of the day after. And so many other Arab countries that were never part of those conversations, they're willing to be part of the day after. And yes, unfortunately, we won't become best friends with Gazans. But we need to live side by side with a lot of security and to make sure that October 7th won't happen again and all those kind of things.
10:27but the first thing in the Israeli and in Judaism is saving life.
10:32Coleman Hughes:The latest round of indirect ceasefire talks hit a dead end in late July, with both sides pointing fingers over who was to blame. Israel has said it's willing to stop fighting, but only if all the hostages are released and Hamas agrees to disarm. That second condition, though, has been firmly rejected by Hamas, which says it won't lay down arms until a Palestinian state is created. As of August 18th, there's been a potential breakthrough. According to an Egyptian official, Hamas has agreed to a 60-day ceasefire deal with Israel. The proposal includes Hamas releasing about half of the hostages in Gaza, while Israel would free some Palestinian prisoners in return.
11:13Coleman Hughes:Senior Hamas officials confirmed the group's agreement in a Facebook post. Hamas also said that other Palestinian factions have given the green light to mediators. Israel has not yet agreed to this. The main things are that there's going to be a ceasefire and Israel is going to start to withdraw from the Gaza Strip. Israel will stay in this perimeter around because we need to have those security guidelines. and Hamas will release half of the living hostages and half of the deceased hostages. And then there are so many other things that I don't know. I think they try to include the fact that they will bring information about the rest of the hostages that are not going to be released.
12:04And I don't know exactly what it says there about Hamas leaving the weapons. I do know that on the second day of the deal, one of the basic conditions is to start negotiating the end of the war. And this is what we need. But you can reach, in my belief, you can reach a comprehensive deal only from the negotiation table. So this is why I believe, and the vast majority of the Israeli population believe that they should agree to that deal now. and then just don't leave the room until you transform the partial deal into a comprehensive deal. But we need the support and the pressure of President Trump because they've been very supportive.
12:51And I think that it's thanks to President Trump and Special Envoy Whitkoff, one brother-in-law back home. But we need them to push harder the Israeli government to accept this deal.
13:05Coleman Hughes:I think you said, correct me if I'm wrong, you said earlier that you would accept, even though it's horrible, you would accept all the hostages returned, even if it meant at any price, including leaving Hamas in power and letting them rebuild. What percent of Israelis do you think would accept that? When you say it like this, I think it's very hard for any Israeli, because we all saw and felt what happened on October 7th. They did horrible things, so I don't want to see them in power. And I think this is an international task to not have them in power. But I also understand that those same terrorists are holding 22 living hostages right now and 28 deceased hostages.
14:01And this is why, if you ask me, and I'm a hostage family, imagine if it was your brother-in-law. So if you ask me, yes, we need to do everything. And then you put all this diplomacy and all those things. I think that Israeli population wants to see them back and not leaving Hamas in power. But Hamas has agreed to not be in power. The problem is that you don't have any other good options of who's going to be in power, because Hamas has been in power for, I believe, almost 20 years as a dictator. It's not even a dictatorship. There's a terror organization. So they don't have anyone following to just take the lead.
14:51And that's always a problem. So if you change your phrase, most of the Israeli society is there. If you're saying that Hamas is staying in power with their arms, with their weapons, so it's problematic.
15:04Coleman Hughes:Yeah, I mean, it's really an impossible situation. And I don't fault anyone for having the opinion they have on it because it's a terrible choice to have to make. Let me say one other thing, which is the counter argument is if Hamas stays in power, they've promised to do October 7th again and again. The argument from the, you might call it the hardliners, is that we have to seize this one opportunity to get rid of Hamas once and for all, or else this will happen again, whether it's 10 years or 50 years. eventually the strategy of building a wall is vulnerable to complacency, which is just a human tendency.
15:50Coleman Hughes:Israel was surprised in 1973, surprised on 10-7. One day you'll be surprised again. It always happens. And so in the long run, it's better to finish the job now. That's the argument. What would you say to that argument? There's no such a thing. There's no such a thing as finishing the job as long as you have Qatar and you have Iran who's sending money. So what do you mean by saying eliminate Hamas? When do you feel Hamas is being eliminated? Look at how many Hamas' leaders and commanders and whatever you want to call them, Israel eliminated already. And they always have new ones because that's the thing of a destructive ideology.
16:34Once again, the same way The United States could not eliminate Al-Qaeda and ISIS and the same way that we still have neo-Nazis walking around the world, right? So you cannot eliminate them. What you can do is stay strong and stay and be yourself. And what's the difference between Israel and Hamas? What's the difference between the U.S. and Hamas? What's the difference between those democratic nations who share value of life is sacred and will do everything we can, but on the same time, we need to fight terror together. So when you have countries like the UK or France or even Canada who are saying, you know what, it's about time to declare a Palestinian state.
17:22What you're saying is, first of all, their statehood is based on terror. And second, those people killed, slaughtered, burned, and they're still holding hostages? Oh, let's give them a price. So if we could just have the world, the democratic country, the Western world together with us, understanding that the only way of fighting terror is by being together in this path, in this struggle. And you know what? On the Israeli side, I don't think that all the people in Gaza, including Hamas, the day after will say, OK, let's become friends. and they won't start sending me flowers. We will need our army strong.
18:10We will need the intelligence. We will need to make sure that it will not happen again because unfortunately that's the story. And when I chose to get married and have kids in Israel, knowing that by the age of 18, they will need to go to the army. I understand that we're living in a tough neighborhood, which is called the Middle East, and not everyone around us loves us. But we know who we are, and we're people of light and life. And right now, we're not being people of light and life, because we're being blighted by this, I don't know if it's this feeling of wanting to revenge, and you cannot revenge the loss of your loved ones or wanting to eliminate something that history shows us that we cannot eliminate them.
19:06And I think there's so many examples, unfortunately, in history. So I think that if the world can put pressure on Qatar and Iran to stop sending money to Hamas, because at the end, if those terrorists don't have money, they won't be able to do it. So So I think that if you take so many, if you take some steps back and you do zoom out and more zoom out and more zoom out, so there's a way to make Hamas weak and Israel forever will need to defend itself and to make sure that October 7th won't happen again. Those terrorists want to do it over and over. You hear from all the release hostages in the first deal in November 2023, they told them, don't go back to your home because we're coming for you again.
20:00And this is the reality. But once again, I believe that by choosing life and by choosing to build, and when I say build, it's not necessarily build a higher world, because that's not the thing. You saw how they crossed all the worlds that we had there. But when I say build, it's we need to build agreement with other countries. And there's so many Arab countries that want to eliminate the idea of terror, and they want to have you see in the Abraham Accords and you see so many things, but we cannot do it by ourselves. If France and UK and Canada would only say, you want a Palestinian state? Okay, start by releasing the hostages.
20:45Then Hamas has to leave the weapons. Then they have to leave Gaza. There's so many, I think, ways of doing it. And I'm an educator, I'm not a diplomat, okay? But we need help for that.
20:59Coleman Hughes:How worried are you about the turning of international public opinion against Israel in the past year? Do you think that this is a serious long-term threat to Israel? Or do you think at the end of the day, the world is going to hate you anyway, and you have to fend for yourself? I'm terrified of what's going on. I'm terrified not only because Jewish communities around the world are being attacked. I'm terrified because I think that this is a long-term damage. And this war started as a war where many countries were with us because they saw what happened. And it turned out now to be different. Now, I can be in this place of a victim and say it's anti-San.
21:50I think that Israel is also doing things wrong. And I think it's the combination of prime ministers in Europe, as I told you, giving prices to Hamas by wanting to declare their independent state. And on the same time, Israel is maybe not dealing in the best way it could. But I think this is the moment where we need to come together and see that Hamas is the real enemy. When Hamas did October 7th, they published, I think it was a few days after, that they started with Israel, but they're going to go into Europe and into the United States as well. And I think you know that there is Islamic, extreme Islamic terror in Europe and in the United States already.
22:45And I think it's the moment to come together and to fight. But when you let those people have hostages starving to death, make them make their own grave in front of a camera, and still you have presidents and prime ministers who are not condemning. You have the Red Cross who's not condemning. You have the UN who's not condemning. So there's a big problem. And I think the problem is not only moral and ethical, the problem is very deep. Where is the word cross? Where are all those countries who are, as we speak, sending humanitarian food and medicine to the population of Gaza, which I think they should do?
23:38And I think those people should get food because they have the same right to eat as you and I. And their kids have the same right to a secure future as my kids. And I don't know if you have kids, but they have the same. But where are those countries who are saying this food should go to the hostages as well? I want to see proofs of that. I want to see a doctor visiting my brother-in-law. He's sick with a severe skin disease that can cause his death. I didn't see any doctor, any medicine, anything. or any of those organizations condemning. So I think that if we come together, there's a possibility of rebuilding something better for the region and for the entire world.
24:30And then Israel will deal with the name and the propaganda and everything all around. But I'm terrified. I'm terrified because I feel like it's a one-way ticket right now. And instead of remembering who started this, all the cameras are on Israel.
24:47Coleman Hughes:A lot of people are saying that Prime Minister Netanyahu is prolonging the war for his own personal benefit. Do you believe that's true? With a big pain in my heart, unfortunately, I believe it's true now. At first, I could not believe. I could not believe this because he's the prime minister of all of us. It doesn't matter who you voted for, right? It's a democratic country. But as for now, after the past few months that we all seen all the opportunities he had for signing a deal, we could have been after, we could have been now in the part of rehabilitation and starting to build ourselves once again.
25:27And this is what I unfortunately feel. I still know that he can do this agreement. And I still, I think it's been a week since Hamas said yes to this deal. And once again, there's no such a thing as a good deal, OK? Because I want to release my brother-in-law, which is the happiest and funniest person on earth. And they're going to release terrorists who has blood of way too many people on their hands. You cannot even compare that, right? But I think he has to do the right thing. and he knows how to do it because he signed two hostage deals before. And it feels sometimes like it's being transformed as a political game.
26:10And it's heartbreaking.
26:11Coleman Hughes:How do you feel about the hostage families that disagree with you, that feel, you know, you have to destroy Hamas, even if it's at the expense of the hostages? How do you feel about those families and their position? So I want to say that on October 7th, no one asked, no one asked us our opinions. They You just abducted those people. And then you find yourself fighting for your loved ones with people who think like you and others who don't. So I respect everyone. And I believe that everyone wants to see their loved ones back home. But we have different opinions. The vast majority of families out of their 50 hostages, it's 48 families because we have two pair of siblings.
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26:55The vast majority of families believe that it should be through a signed agreement. And as I said before, there's no such a thing as a good agreement, but agreement would save life. And this is why it's good for us. I don't believe that the military pressure is the way to do it, because when you want to eliminate Hamas, you do it by a military campaign. And we've seen till today 42 hostages that were kidnapped alive and are now dead because of military pressure. Part of them were killed in a very sad and tragic way due to Israeli airstrikes, which I believe the army did not know those hostages are there.
27:39And it was not their intention. But at the end, those people are dead now. And part of the people were killed by Hamas terrorists because the Israeli army was coming close. Tomorrow is going to be the one-year anniversary of the Beautiful Six. We call the Beautiful Six the six hostages that were executed a year ago by Hamas, one of whom is Hirsch Goldberg-Polin, an Israeli-American citizen that I think that this name is very familiar. around the world, but we're talking about six hostages that survived for 350 days, something like this, even though they were starved and injured and sick, but they survived and they knew that we're doing everything to bring them back.
28:30And then the army was coming very, very close. And those Hamas terrorists thought that maybe they're coming for them. So they just executed them and the army found their bodies. So military pressure is dangerous for the hostages. 42 dead people can say this statistic. I don't want to go into their minds and heads and understand that they're going through a lot of pain. But if we just look at the numbers, more than 120 hostages alive were saved and released in an agreement, the first one and the second one, and 42 were killed because of military pressure. So I don't think there's a big question here.
29:17We need more agreement and less military operations.
29:23Coleman Hughes:Okay, final question for you, more personal question. I think a lot of people in your situation where you have family members taken hostage, a lot of people would just say, I'm not going to talk publicly about this. I don't want to be involved in media. I just want to deal with this privately and would retreat into private life. But you've chosen to speak publicly about this. Why have you made that choice and why is that important to you? I need your help. I need your help and I need the help of everyone who's listening to this podcast right now. First of all, I want you to know that people might be talking about 50 hostages, or at first it was 251, and each and every one of them is an entire world.
30:12Instead of talking about my Eitan, born, that's his name, imagine it was your brother-in-law, imagine it was your son, imagine it was your brother. Wouldn't you do everything that is in your power to save him? I know the answer is yes. I want to see Eitan back with my kids. I want to see him dancing and playing with my small kids who are waiting almost two years for their beloved uncle. And I need to talk about Eitan, and I need to make the entire world understand that they're holding 50 civilians who had done nothing. Their only crime was sleeping that morning in their safe rooms. two kilometers from the border and within the area of the sovereign country of Israel.
31:04And I need the help of everyone who's listening, who can pick their phone or send a letter or an email to their administration, to their senators, to the American government. Or if you know someone on an international health organization, or if you work in a hospital, maybe your hospital can and send a letter and say, this is against all human rights. And maybe together, not maybe, I believe that together we can make a change. So I'm talking publicly about Eitan, and I'm opening my heart, and I'm opening this entire story of my life just because I need help, because I understand that alone I cannot save them.
31:50And I saw when Trump got elected that very soon there was a hostage deal and I got one of my brothers-in-law back. So I understand that with the leadership of President Trump and with the pressure of the U.S. government, all the Israeli government, it can happen again. And I think this is the message. I think that in 50 years from now, we're going to all look back and say, what have we done to help solve this hostage crisis because once again, there are American citizens being held hostage as we speak. So this is not something only against Israel. My brother-in-law is an Argentinian citizen. This is an international thing, an international battle they started.
32:42So if we don't want to have hostages next year, God forbid, from the U.S. or in New York, we need to come together. We need to fight terror. We need to fight this horrible values of sanctifying death. We need to remind the entire world that we believe in construction. We believe in life. We need to make sure that our values stay as top priority. And the key component for this building and construction is releasing the hostages and showing them that this is not the way things work out.
33:19Coleman Hughes:I want to tell you about a podcast I think you're going to appreciate. It's called Unpacking Israeli History. If you follow the news about Israel, you're just getting headlines. But headlines are just a tiny slice of a long, complicated, and genuinely fascinating story. One of the things I care about on this show is engaging seriously with complexity rather than flattening it. That's exactly what host Dr. Noam Weissman does on Unpacking Israeli History. He dives deep into the events, the people, and the moments that shaped Israel past and present, with genuine empathy and a willingness to explore multiple perspectives.
33:56Coleman Hughes:And when he brings in guests, like philosopher Micah Goodman or journalist Haviv Retzig-Gor, they add real depth to the conversation. It's deeply researched storytelling for people who want to understand Israel rather than just confirm what they already think. In today's climate, that's rare, and it matters. Find Unpacking Israeli History on your favorite podcast app or YouTube and subscribe today.
34:43Coleman Hughes:different perspective on the resolution for Israel. Tavika spoke to me from a protest by the Mothers of Israel, a women's organization that advocates for total victory. It took place in front of the Minister of Security's house. Tavika and Talik, thank you so much for coming on my show. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, so I noticed, Tavika, right before we started recording, you're outside because you are at a demonstration outside a member of government. Can you explain where you are and what you're doing before we get into the topics of the podcast? Yes. I'm in a village called Kfar Achim. Kfar Achim is village of brothers.
35:27This is the meaning of this name in Hebrew, okay? Village of brothers. And I came to here this day with hundreds of women, mothers of Israeli soldiers that want the Israeli government to start the operation and finish this war with surrender of Hamas. Okay, we want Hamas to be surrendered to Israel.
35:57Coleman Hughes:Okay, so thank you for taking a moment of your time from this demonstration to do my podcast. So I want both of you to tell your personal stories. Obviously, our audience is mostly American. We're familiar with the details of October 7th, and we follow the war, but we don't know your personal stories. We don't know the story of your children. So if we could just begin by perhaps bring us back to October 7th, if you don't mind. I know it's an incredibly difficult thing to talk about, but I think it's important for our audiences to understand who you are, who your children are, what happened and how personal this is for you.
36:42Coleman Hughes:So let's start with Talik, if you don't mind. Tell us the story of your son.
36:53Coleman Hughes:Talik spoke in Hebrew sometimes so we've had her answers translated and voiced by an actor Ron was on sick leave when he got a call from his police unit He was on sick leave with a broken shoulder He went out to his unit, fought, and was wounded in the process and kidnapped after he ran out of ammunition After two days, we didn't know where he was. After two days, they came to us and told us they had no contact with him.
37:49In January, January 2024, they told us that he was killed. In the 7th of October, they think that he didn't get a treatment and he doesn't survive. But we have a big hope that maybe he gets treatment and he will come back to us. He pray, he is a very strong guy.
38:19Coleman Hughes:I'm so sorry. Okay, Sfika, tell us about your son and your experience of October 7th as a parent. Okay, so on October 7th, we're living in Kiryat Arba Hebron. Hebron is the second only city for the Jewish nation. King David was king in Hebron seven years before he was king in Jerusalem. and we are living there. And we are parents of eight kids, four boys and four girls. And Eitan is our eldest son, 25 years old. Eitan was a security guard at the Nova Festival and saved dozens of people before he was kidnapped. Eitan was kidnapped by Gaza civilians, okay, with jeans and shirts and T-shirts, okay?
39:14Eitan was missing for 10 days. For 10 days before we get the first information from the Israeli intelligence that Eitan is in Gaza. We thought that Eitan is dead. But they told us that Eitan is in Gaza, but they don't know if he's alive. And the first life sign came after three weeks. after three weeks, the Israeli intelligence told us that Eitan is alive. And right now, we didn't get any information about Eitan for about six months. About six months, I don't know if my son is alive. And if he is alive, I don't know if Eitan gets food, water, appropriate facilities, of course, the tunnels. and it's very important for me to give you the whole picture about the lives in Israel look, we came home we came back to our only only land our only state after 2000 years and since then since more than 100 years the Arabs don't want us to be here and all the world knows that this land the land of israel belongs to the israeli nation the arabs have 22 21 22 okay 22 states to be there and we have only one state this is our land We are the kids of the prophets.
41:02And now we came back. And we want to live here in peace. And we tried several times since the Israeli state established. We tried to make a peace with the Arabs. But they refused. Every time they refused because they want all this country. And they are not going to get it. because we are going to fight for our land and for our lives. We are not going to get back to Europe or other countries.
41:39Coleman Hughes:There's a lot of things you said in there, and we'll get to it all. But first, I want to talk about your political advocacy as parents of hostages. In America, we hear from hostage families in the news sometimes, but we only ever hear about hostage families who want the war to end now on any terms, including leaving Hamas in power. And you have staked out a different position, a position that must be incredibly difficult for a parent to articulate, which is we actually do not want to end the war on any terms. This war has to end with Hamas destroyed, even if that compromises the hostage situation.
42:33Coleman Hughes:So it's a situation where your interest as a parent might be the opposite of the interest as a country, and you have chosen the interest of the country, which is an incredibly difficult decision emotionally. So can you walk me through why you feel that Israeli decision makers should not just do a hostage deal on any terms, even if that were to mean bringing back your son, both of your sons? Okay. Okay. Okay. that's not exactly accurate. We want to live in a country where we can raise both our grandchildren and our other children as well. I do not think that Hamas will release the abductees as long as Hamas lives and stands and breathes.
43:32Anyone who has read the Hamas Charter knows that all it wants to do is basically exterminate the Jewish people and the Zionist people and take our lands. Hamas won't release the abductees. No way. I mean, we're going to have to continue in this horrible period for a few more years.
44:01I want to add that from day one, Hamas didn't provide a list of the hostages. we don't know the condition of our loved ones it means that Hamas can say that he has only 15 hostages and what about the rest he can say that he doesn't know so we don't have we don't have another option, we have to fight okay, we have to force Hamas to give us all our people in one time, in one day. We're afraid that Hamas will keep some of the hostages for decades.
44:46Coleman Hughes:I mean, that answer makes sense to me. It also, I'm curious what your relationship is like with the hostage families who are on the other side of that issue, because you guys have taken a position, agree with it or not, you've taken a position that's extremely selfless as a parent, right? Like you can, we can debate about what policy Israel should have, but it's clear that you have chosen what you view to be the national long-term safety of the country. You mentioned thinking about your grandchildren's generation. You've chosen that over what would be your selfish interest as a parent. And I could imagine that would rub some of the other hostage families.
45:38Coleman Hughes:In a way, your position is a challenge to them because what you're saying is, I can still be a good parent. I can still be a loving parent and prioritize the long-term well-being of my country. And that becomes a challenge to the other hostage families, whether you mean it to be a challenge or not, that becomes a challenge to them to think about whether they are being narrow and self-interested in advocating for a ceasefire now at any cost. So I'm curious, what has your relationship been with the hostage families on the other side of this issue? And are you guys able to find camaraderie or are you political enemies?
46:19No, we're not political enemies. We love all the family. we are in contact a good contact with them we talk with them every day i'm talking and when you say what you really mean or really believed and you say it clearly they understand they understand us they don't agree with us but they understand us like we don't agree with them but it's one family In our family, it's the same. My brother thinks something else, but we are still brothers. Yes, I believe that the only chance for me to see my dear son is to win this war. Hamas didn't provide a picture, a video of my son. Okay? Hamas saying that he doesn't know where's my son.
47:17Okay? Hamas doesn't admit that Eitan is in his hands. So I'm afraid that Eitan, my son, will be there in captivity for a long time. So I think that the both things, winning this war, this national view, and getting back, my son, is going together.
47:43Coleman Hughes:So do you think that it is possible to win the war against Hamas? Separate the question, the strategic question, separate the hostage question. Do you think militarily it is possible because both Israel and America have examples, Israel and Lebanon, America and Vietnam, where we are fighting an enemy that is a lot weaker than us on paper, but we're actually not able to win. because of the mechanics of the battlefield, because of the, for really nitty-gritty military reasons, it's just a war that they're able to fight using guerrilla tactics forever. And the more powerful army actually can't really win.
48:31Coleman Hughes:So do you think it is possible from a military point of view to destroy Hamas? Of course, of course. You have to close water, electricity, and you will see that Hamas will surrender. It's very easy. But for us, okay, for us it's difficult to do that. But if you think about it, it's very easy. Just close the water. They don't have water there. They get their water from us, okay? I think that if we just now, closing the water, I think that in a couple of weeks, Hamas will surrender. The counter argument to that is if you close water, you close aid, the civilians are going to die before Hamas because Hamas steals everything.
49:24Coleman Hughes:So they'll be the last ones to suffer. No, no, no. You have to evacuate all the civilians to the south of the Gaza Strip. OK, women, children, elders. OK, and Hamas will stay in one area and then close the water, close the electricity, and they will have to go up from the tunnels and surrender. OK, OK, I'll let you go. Thank you for your time. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. All right. So, Talib, do you agree with that strategy and do you think it's possible to destroy Hamas? I'm not a military woman. I was in the IDF, but I don't know how to fight. I'm saying that on a logical level, it isn't a lie.
50:17He's not a military man, but on a logical level, it makes sense. Evacuate the population centers, just evacuate them. There is a plan to evacuate the population from the northern region and then just submit it to a constant fire. It's to take certain areas, cut them off and occupy them, to cut them off from water and electricity and crush them. Whatever we've done up to now, we fought the right way. We were in and out, in and out. And it doesn't mean anything. In the end, every time we went out, the terrorists came in again. We are aware of this because there are hostages there. It's like we are working with tweezers.
51:19But there are still all kinds of options here that for some reason they do not use. There is also the global public opinion that keeps creating a problem here.
51:34Coleman Hughes:Okay, so a few questions. One, I mean, this strategy sounds good on paper of separating Hamas from the population, but I assume Hamas's entire strategy is to not ever get separated from the population because their only shield is their people. Their only shield is their own civilians. So what has been stopping the government from implementing this strategy? We did it in Rafa. It could be because of Israeli public opinion, the demonstrations and protests that essentially led to the halt of the military operation, or because of the international pressure on Israel. We don't really know. It's also connected to the fact that a lot of time was spent on negotiations over the hostage deals, which limited the continuation of the military campaign, and in the end, only some of the deals went through, while others did not.
52:46Coleman Hughes:How worried are you about international pressure? because from the beginning of the war, Hamas knows that they can't beat Israel on the battlefield. Their strategy is to make Israel respond so aggressively that the world isolates Israel. And so in their mind, they're not fighting a two-year war. They're fighting a hundred-year war. They're hoping one day Israel will be viewed like North Korea and everyone, Iran, Lebanon, the Houthis will all attack at once and there will be no America, there will be no aid from Europe because Israel will have been isolated because of these past campaigns. How worried are you about the long-term effect of international pressure on Israel?
53:41Look, I think it's very simple. We're constantly on a global offensive. There's pressure on us all the time, and so I think we just shouldn't get stressed about it. We just very much have to do our job. They will talk about us that way anyway. It doesn't matter that much. We need to continue the pressure and not treat the world, except only our friends, of course, the United States, like it really matters.
54:19Coleman Hughes:There's a lot of developments in America during this war that would be troubling, though, on that front. If you look at what's happening on college campuses, the eruption of anti-Israel protests. The 20 years ago, Bill Clinton was a great ally to Israel in a lot of ways. But the way the Democrat Party is trending, it could be that those days are over. So obviously, Trump, to the surprise of a lot of people in his base, actually, has been very steadfastly supportive of Israel, from recognizing Golan Heights, to moving the embassy, to supporting the war effort. And he's been bombing Iran, which was his policy for years, of course, that he wouldn't allow Iran to get a nuke.
55:04But when Trump is gone, there's a probably greater than 50 % chance, in my opinion, greater than 50 % chance a Democrat will win because the American public, we always want the opposite of whatever we just had.
55:19Coleman Hughes:So if a Democrat wins, for the first time, they might be facing a party base that is more anti-Israel than pro-Israel. Because that wasn't true of Democrats even 10 years ago, definitely not 20 years ago. And so I'm curious, does the Israeli decision makers and the public feel that they have a ticking clock on this war? Like it's got to be wrapped up by the time Trump is gone. We hope it ends well before. We want to end everything, and so we really need to make a very, very unequivocal action when we have the opportunity. When Trump is in power to do the very, very sharp and real action to destroy Hamas and collapse the entire access that is around it, all its proxies, I very much hope we succeed.
56:17Coleman Hughes:How much faith do you have in the current administration and Netanyahu to pull off a successful end to the war? I can't really think of anyone else who could replace him right now. I have a lot of criticism of him. I believe we should have acted much more forcefully and decisively and defeated Hamas long ago. But at the moment, I don't see anyone else who could manage this huge and terrible situation other than him. I also think he is in an extremely difficult position. Every decision he makes could either endanger the hostages, the soldiers, or the Israeli population. You often hear the critique that Netanyahu is prolonging the war for his own personal benefit.
57:17Coleman Hughes:And I've also heard the critique from Israelis that he doesn't give, he gives more interviews for the international press in English than to the Israeli people in Hebrew. So I'm curious if either of those critiques hits you as true. If Netanyahu releases our abductees, I think there won't be one person in the country, certainly not on the right side, who won't elect him. It is in his interest to get everyone out and free everyone and win the war. He has no interest in continuing this war. Those who do not like him and those who criticize him are simply constantly looking for any excuse to do so.
58:07That's exactly what they're doing to Trump in the United States. That's what they do to Bibi in this country.
58:16Coleman Hughes:And what about the critique that he doesn't explain the war well enough and take interviews with the Israeli press in Hebrew? I am saying that I think it is very simple, the ideas in the media in Israel. I mean, there are some who are very, very leftists and take anything he says out of context. And he's mad at them because they're baiting what he's saying. He does interviews on Channel 14. He does get interviewed in places that talk to him correctly and do the interview in a good way. But at press conferences on several occasions, they just interrupted the broadcast while he was talking. What would you say to the following argument?
59:07Coleman Hughes:Israel has suffered so much in terms of its image around the world. What if the better thing to do right now is to cut those losses, double and triple and quadruple the border between Gaza and Israel and border security and make sure never to have another lapse again so that there will be no second October 7th? but basically say we have to make a hostage deal. Let's get the hostages back. We'll leave Hamas in power and they'll rebuild, but we will be so vigilant about security for the rest of time so that we won't allow another October 7th to happen.
59:54I just think that for Hamas, there is no interest to come and make a deal and return the hostages. I personally agree that if there was an opportunity to remove all the hostages and end the war, I would do that. I just don't think it's something that is real. They will not allow it. They will not let it happen. All of our hostages. We have hostages from 11 years ago who were kidnapped. Their bodies were there. Orin Shal and Hadar Golden. For 11 years, we haven't had any legitimacy to go to Gaza and take them out and fight them. This time, we have legitimacy.
1:00:42Coleman Hughes:Final question. Thank you so much for your time. I know this is, as I said before, this is a really tough thing for you. But why have you chosen to publicly advocate for these positions? I can imagine it would be very tempting as a mother to just withdraw and be private and say, I can't deal with public attention and the fact that my son was kidnapped and possibly killed. For many people, that would just be too much. And they would say, screw it. I'm just going to be a private person throughout all of this. I'm not going to talk to the media. I'm not going to participate in the clown car of politics.
1:01:20Coleman Hughes:But why have you chosen to make your positions public. My son is an hero. He's a soldier. He goes to save people in Israel. He goes on a mission. If he fights, then I feel like I should continue his war. If I asked Rani, how do you want me to behave? He would tell me, Mom, tell everyone you must eliminate and destroy Hamas. May there not be another mother like me in this country. I feel like I'm continuing his fight. It's hard to make a distinction between emotion and logic. That's a beautiful response. How are you able to do that? Because I think a lot of people, they would want to be able to do that, but they're not really able to.
1:02:15Coleman Hughes:They just, they can only speak from the emotional side. So is that like a choice you made at some point or is that a character trait you've always had in your life? It's my character, I think. But I speak with my child, with Ran, every day in my imagination. And I ask all the time, what we're going to do? I have another son and daughter. He's also a police officer. And I raise them to be good people, to follow their inspiration and their purpose. And as a mother, I carry the responsibility to keep going, to think about the bigger picture. I tell them, don't think emotionally, think rationally.
1:03:04Coleman Hughes:That's very admirable, and I wish there were more people like you. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for your time. Thank you. It's important. Eitan Moore has been held since October 7th. Hamas claims that Ran Gavili died in action, but as you heard, Talik hopes that her son may still be alive. So there you have it. Two very different points of view, and two points that I completely understand. On the one hand, families can hope for a ceasefire and accept leaving Hamas in power, but potentially get their loved ones back. Or they can advocate that the conflict continues, at their loved one's peril, but increase the odds of actually destroying Hamas.
1:03:48Coleman Hughes:It's an impossible choice, and only time will tell who is right.
From the publisher
It’s been nearly two years since October 7, when Hamas took over 250 people hostage. Since then, families of the captives have led a relentless campaign to bring them home, but they haven’t always agreed on how to get there.
As a new ceasefire deal is on the table, I speak with three voices from that struggle. One is Dalia Cusnir-Horn, who has one brother-in-law, Iair Horn, who was captured and then freed and another, Eitan Horn, who is still held in Gaza. Dalia has become a leading advocate for a negotiated release.
I also speak with Tzvika Mor and Talik Gvili, parents with a very different view. Tzvika speaks to me from a protest calling for “total victory.” Both argue that only military pressure will bring real resolution, and to negotiate with Hamas is not an option.
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