The Lie at the Center of Antisemitism, with Dara Horn

27:07Coleman Hughes:Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue, and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms, and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert-Eaton syndrome, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. Why wait? Ask your doctor, visit BotoxChronicMigraine.com, or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more. Okay, so, you know, speaking of debunking lies, you know, in a room like this, everyone knows what I mean when I say the word blood libel.

27:47Coleman Hughes:This is precisely the kind of audience that most people could actually describe what that actually means, right? But we learned recently that the vice president of the United States, educated at Yale, has no idea what blood libel means. No, apparently not. But uses it. He deploys that term as if he knows what it means, and then it turns out he has no idea what it means. And then even more depressing than that, one of the most popular podcasts in the country, Pod Save America, was discussing this about President Vance. And in the middle of the discussion, they realized that they didn't know what a blood libel was either.

28:29Coleman Hughes:And one of them thought it was the charge that Jews kill Jesus, which is not with a blood libel. So, you know, one of the ironic things is I've heard many educated people that care about anti-Semitism, whether you're on TV, on cable news, or on a stage like this, say, look, that's similar to a blood libel, right? And do we all have to wake up and realize that actually nobody knows what that means? The only people that know what a blood libel is are Jews, hardcore anti-Semites that have studied their anti-Semitism, and like me and Douglas Murray and Michael Moynihan. Nobody else knows. Well, hats off to you and Douglas Murray.

29:16Coleman Hughes:But if that's true, does the fight against anti-Semitism have to descend to the low intellectual level of a lot of the people in the fight, if that makes sense? Short answer, yes. Yes. Yes, I mean, it is like the level of ignorance is like staggering. And I mean, look, we see this. I mean, this is a hallmark of what we've seen in anti-Semitism in the past few years. All these people chanting from the river to the sea. I mean, nobody knows which river, nobody knows which sea. Right? I mean, there's not even like a pretense toward interest in the realities here. So, you know, this is, but you're correct that, like, I think people in the Jewish community and maybe people like you maybe make this mistake of thinking, like, if you mention this, then people will get it.

30:14They're not going to get it. They're not going to get it. And so you have to become what I think it's Irving Howe years and years ago called the master of the subordinate phrase. Like, it is our job, people like me and you who are, you know, people who are explainers to the public and various media to educate the public. And that is our responsibility. Look, part of what we're doing at the Tell is making this as simple as possible, making this something that a 13-year-old can understand, because it is actually something a 13-year-old can understand. Jews are destroying what you value the most.

30:50Fill in the blank. What do you value the most? Who's benefiting from pushing this in your eyeballs all day long? Right? But, like, yeah, I mean, we do. way. And I think that also, it gets even more basic than that, Coleman, because what I found is that no one knows who Jews are. No one knows who Jews are. I mean, I have spoken in so many places where people say, you know, are Jews a religion, are Jews an ethnicity, are Jews a nationality, or then, of course, you know, we have all of our favorite people these days saying, you know, like, oh, I love the Jewish religion. I love the Jewish faith. And, you know, I hate half the Jews in the world who live in Israel, but I love the Jewish faith, right?

31:29I mean, this is a very, you know, this is, you know, a very popular tactic. Jews aren't a religion. Jews have a religion, which many Jews observe, many do not, but like millions of Jews are secular. Have you ever met a secular Mormon? Probably not, right? Because Mormonism is a religion. So like, there's an answer to who Jews are. Jews are a joinable tribal group with a shared history, homeland, and culture. That was a sentence in English. In Hebrew, it's one word. It's two letters long. Am. Jews are Am Yisrael, the people of Israel. And the reason this category is unfamiliar to modern people is because other groups like this were assimilated into empires and destroyed.

32:12Right? There aren't a lot of groups like this left. So, yeah, you do have to give that sentence and explain it. But you're correct. Nobody knows what the blood libel is. Certainly nobody knows what Zionism is. I just had a reader this morning who wrote to me, they said, oh, I saw you on Morning Joe, and you were talking about Zionism, and you said most Jews are Zionists, and that can't possibly be, because, you know, Zionism is when you believe everything that's written in the Old Testament about the promised land. I'm like, that's a new one. Like, I never heard that one before. So, yeah, I mean, we cannot assume.

32:46Did Theodor Herzl believe that?

32:46Coleman Hughes:I don't think so. What? By that definition, Theodor Herzl wasn't a Zionist. I mean, exactly. Exactly. Most Jews are not Zionist by that definition. Right? But as you say, I mean, the anti-Semites seem to know what it is. I mean, certainly all the Islamist jihadis know exactly what it is. So, I mean, yes. Candace Owens knows exactly what a blood libel is because she believes Christian babies disappear on Passover. You know, she knows. They're up to date on that. Yes. But yes, I mean, look, the only other thing I'll say about ignorance is that, I mean, I often have said this, there is a lot more ignorance than malice.

33:22And I feel like that is an opportunity. That is an opportunity that I think we're not taking advantage of enough.

33:30Coleman Hughes:How do we take advantage of that better? I think that people are actually really curious about who Jews are. And they have nowhere to go with their curiosity. Right? Because what are you going to do, like, Google Jews? Right? I mean, have fun with that. have fun. So I mean, this is like, there are opportunities for us to reset this conversation with these very basic definitions. There are opportunities for that in AI. I know there's some people in the audience here who are working on this project. There's opportunities for this in social media. There's opportunities for this in education. I mean, the reason I started the tell was because I was, and the reason I wrote this book was because I was like, Jews have been erased from school curricula, right?

34:13I mean, the only thing that often Jews will learn about, American students will learn about Jews in public schools, if they learn anything at all, is that Jews were murdered in the Holocaust. And that's like the, and it was, one of the things I write about in the book about Holocaust education is being in the Dallas Holocaust Museum and hearing from one of the docents there that sometimes the students will ask him, are there still Jews alive today? I mean, this is a profound layer of ignorance, but we do have these institutions, and there is a possibility of changing the conversation. There actually really is, because most people are ignorant.

34:49They're not malicious. It's about becoming first to market in somebody's brain.

34:54Coleman Hughes:So you've been critical of Holocaust remembrance education. Yes. I want to understand that because it seems to me remembering the Holocaust is very important for multiple reasons. I've been to Yad Vashem and had the experience of, you know, and I've never been a huge museum guy, but it really is. You really picked a fun one. Well, but it did everything a museum should do. It was so much more than a pornography of atrocity. I came out really understanding more richly what the Holocaust was. And none of it felt as if it was being crammed down your throat. It was just a brilliant example of, you know, to me, everyone should have that experience.

35:44Coleman Hughes:So when you criticize Holocaust remembrance, what is it that your critique consists in? Yes, I want to be really clear. I am not against Holocaust education. this is often a straw man made against you know when people are like Dara Horn hates Holocaust education like no this is not true it's there's I think 20 28 states in this country that mandate Holocaust education in schools I want to be super clear it should be 50 I it should be 50 especially now when you know we're there's you know Holocaust denials had this resurgence there's this total ignorance of history I mean history education in this country has gone down the toilet.

36:25I am not arguing against Holocaust education. What I found disturbing about Holocaust education, and in the book I talk about this, I mean, I spent about a year of my life researching Holocaust education in America, which is a very different project than what you saw at Yad Vashem. I mean, because Yad Vashem is like one room in a house, right? I mean, that's like, there's, you know, many other things you're learning about the Jewish people, the nation of Israel, etc., etc., when you're on your trip to Israel. You're probably not only going to Yad Vashem. But as I mentioned, learning about the Holocaust is often the only thing that public school students in the United States will learn, or any non-Jewish students in the United States will learn about who Jews are.

37:06And what that means is, what I talk about in the book is what educators call the null curriculum, null like zero, like N-U-L-L. The null curriculum is an idea that what's not taught in schools is also part of the curriculum. because you're signaling to students, you're not saying don't learn this, you're saying don't learn it from me, like sex education a few generations ago, right? They're not, teachers weren't saying don't learn about sex, they were saying learn about it from your older brother's porn magazines, right? That was the message the schools were sending. What I think is interesting about this is that Jews have been placed in the null curriculum, right?

37:46The only thing, if the only, And what that means is that we have outsourced everything about who Jews are. Everything we're going to teach about who Jews are has been outsourced to TikTok. And we're living with the results. So, you know, if the only thing you learn in school about the Holocaust is that, you know, that's the only thing you know about Jews. Is Jews are people who were murdered in Europe between 1933 and 1945. And their murders were there to, you know, teach us some nice lesson about humanity. And then TikTok tells you Jews are white European colonizers who have no business in the Middle East and are like, you know, stealing land from, you know, righteous indigenous people.

38:24Like, that completely comports with what you learned in school. That fits exactly with what you learned in school. What's different than, you know, there's no challenge there. You've learned absolutely nothing else about Jews. So, you know, and I think that the deeper issue I have with it, though, is what I explore more in People Love Dead Jews, which is that there's this implication that Jews are only presentable to a non-Jewish public when they have no power, whether that means they're politically impotent or dead. And to me, that is sort of, you know, that is ultimately the way that non-Jewish societies are most comfortable presenting Jews.

39:08And that is this removal of agency, right? And what I think is so fascinating is the only reason Jews still exist now after thousands of years is because of choices that Jewish communities made against all odds over thousands and thousands of years.

39:24Coleman Hughes:So if we think about anti-Semitism in the way you've prescribed, as whatever society values, that's what Jews are said to be threatening. Yes. How do you view anti-Semitism from the political right as different than anti-Semitism from the political left? Are they equally worrisome to you, or do you worry more about one than the other? So I think that if you think there's right-wing anti-Semitism and left-wing anti-Semitism, you've already lost. Because they're the same. They're the same. And what I mean by that is, you know, look, if you look on, I mean, first of all, we see this in our current situation online where, like, people like Tucker Carlson and Hasan Piker, they're, like, retweeting each other.

40:17You know, I mean, like, you know, Tucker Carlson has a house in Doha. like everybody's got a house in Doha, right? I mean, like, you know, the idea that this is, like, some difference, you know, that there's, like, oh, there's this over here and that over here, and the one that's the real problem is whoever I didn't vote for, you know? I mean, I think this is something self-protective that people do. And I want to also point out that historically, you know, you have this virulence that spans the political spectrum and almost is, it's not even horseshoe theory. It's a circle. Can I give just one story about illustrating this?

40:51Please. Yeah, so this is a story I tell in the book about a Nazi officer that probably, unless you've read this book, you probably never heard of him, is a man named Johann von Lehrs. This was a Nazi ideologue. He published like 27 books about Nazi ideology. He wrote all the curricula for all the schools of the Third Reich. The only interesting thing about this man is what happened to him after World War II. In 1945, he escaped. He did not face justice. He was like, you know, second to Goebbels and Himmler, but he did not face justice. He escaped first to Argentina and then to Egypt, where in the 1950s, he was hired by the Egyptian dictator Gamal Abdel Nasser to write anti-Israel propaganda for the entire Arab League.

41:38their school curricula all their broadcasts everything about anti-zionist anti-arab propaganda and he did that for the rest of his life he like lived through until the 1960s and he died in the 1960s having converted to islam by hajameen al-hussaini the mufti of jerusalem who converted him to islam and then his material also gets translated into russian by the soviets who then use it as part of their anti-zionist campaign in the 1960s which is all the slogans we still hear today. Zionism is racism. Zionism is colonialism. Zionism is apartheid. Zionism is genocide. It's like, it's not horseshoe theory when it's one person, right?

42:17So, you know, I think that, like, this entire frame of, like, right wing and left wing, and they need different approaches, like, nope, it's all the same. It's the lie. Jews are destroying what you value the most. Like, it's really that simple. And to me, the way you fight a lie is not through, you know, empathy. It's through exposure. It is through exposure, pre-bunking, telling people to anticipate this lie and to be able to recognize it when it's infesting their phone.

42:51Coleman Hughes:So we're now going to go to some audience questions. Someone writes, Alana Newhouse at Tablet has an idea. She had a great essay to this effect. that Western societies are losing touch with their ethnos and what makes their identity and society something to admire. And that drives hate, I would add, via envy, hate via envy towards Israel and Israelis slash Zionists who are in touch with their ethnos and what makes their specific particular identity something to admire. How do you think about the tension or need for American Jews specifically to advocate for what makes us great and not sure what the end of that says.

43:35Coleman Hughes:Great and cool. Great and cool. Well, I wouldn't argue that we're cool, but I think we're at the height of uncool for the last several thousand years. Maybe that is what makes you cool. The uncool. Willingness to be uncool. I don't know. I've never been cool. I couldn't say. But, you know, I think that, you know, I I thought her essay was great. I think it's, what's so interesting to me is that there has been this strategy of self-erasure in diaspora Jewish communities that traces back thousands of years. I could give many examples of this. But this is a self-preservation strategy that people don't even realize that they're participating in this.

44:15And this is part of what brought us this so-called golden age of American Jews that we now are lamenting is coming to an end. And I write in the book about how that was really brought to us not by this magic of, like, oh, after World War II, people felt bad about the Holocaust. The way it happened was through American Jewish activism, you know, in fighting discrimination. And one of the ways that American Jewish activists at the time fought discrimination was by saying that people had to, by taking what was at that time called a colorblind approach to discrimination. They actually often worked with black American groups that were obviously fighting a much bigger battle against legal segregation.

44:52But the idea was like basically to allow you to not be Jewish in public was the standard. Like basically making it a legal for someone to ask if you were Jewish at a job interview, for example. And that was the victory. That you would not be asked your religion on a job application. If you changed your name in court, they wouldn't ask for your father's name on a job application, that sort of thing. Think about what that meant to call that victory. Calling that victory is like, don't ask, don't tell. For gay service members in the US military 15 years ago, ultimately gay rights advocates saw that don't ask, don't tell was itself homophobic because it's accommodating homophobia.

45:38is basically saying, let's figure out a way to not upset the homophobes. That's what this was. It was basically finding a way for Jews to pass. And that is so ingrained in a lot of American Jews because this is our heritage as American Jews. But I think Alana is really correct that there is an absence in a lot of broader American culture. And I actually, here's where I see this the most, is actually in the anti-Israel movement. And I talk about this in the book. I often do events at college campuses where, you know, often it will happen that some, usually the way I think of it, it's like, you know, it's like the white non-Jewish kid in a keffiyeh who gets up and like heckles you at events.

46:22Maybe this happens to you too, I don't know. But probably, you're like, not, you know. I've seen it. Maybe, yep, yeah. And, you know, I actually, you know, I'm a mother of four teenagers, so I'm not scared of teenagers. And so when these people would come up to me and they'd be heckling me with their, I felt sorry for them. Because I look at them and I thought, wow, you don't have anything from your own culture to wear. Right? I'm like, you don't have a way to like go to, you know, somewhere once a week where you can sit in a circle and bang on a table and chant meaningful words that make you feel part of a story that matters.

47:00Like, my kids do that every Shabbos. Right? It's like, but you know, it's like, they can't do that. You know, it's like if only, you know, they can't go to Chabad. So instead, you know, they have like this other thing they do. And it's like people are searching for that kind of community and historical consciousness and wanting to be part of a bigger story. And unfortunately, that's something that unfortunately a lot of our broader culture doesn't give us. And I think Alana's point, like, you know, everyone should be a Zionist, meaning not a Zionist specifically, you know, a person who supports Israel specifically, but everyone should be a person who's part of this culture.

47:37And, you know, we've lost a lot of that, I think, in a broader American culture, of feeling that sense of community and connection to the past and the future.

47:44Coleman Hughes:Yeah, I think it was Bill Maher who said that, you know, the greatest mistake Democrats ever made in this country is to make the flag a Republican Party symbol. Yes. To cede that ground. Yes. So that Democrats feel a little bit embarrassed to fly a flag over their home. Yes. You know? This next question is something I think many people in the room will resonate with. It's probably the most frequent question I get from my podcast audience. I'm losing or have lost friends, good people, who fall for the current bombardment from the media. What should I do? Yes. This is a tough one. You know, look, I feel, I don't blame anyone who, you know, it's funny, I was doing an interview with someone else recently, it was someone in Europe who was saying, like, I feel like my friends have been bitten by a zombie.

48:43And it's like, once they're bitten by the zombie, it's like, they're like, sorry, can't talk to you anymore, I was bitten by the zombie. Right? It's like, it's like, suddenly, like, we can't be friends anymore. And, you know, I think that, I don't blame anyone who falls for what I call the lie. because it's almost impossible not to, because this is what's coming at you all day long. You don't pay for TikTok, you don't pay for Instagram, that means you're the product. Very few people question that, and very few people think, suddenly a lot of my news comes from Al Jazeera. Why is that my main source of news?

49:22Nobody ever really thinks about that. They're just watching whatever video comes through their feed. And 20 years ago, or 10 years ago, nobody was watching a news network from foreign countries. That was not common. And now it's like, whatever's on my phone is on my phone. Here it is. I don't pay for TikTok. I don't pay for Instagram. But to answer, so the question about, but what do you do when this is, and this is one thing when it's somebody heckling you at an event, but what do you do when it's someone in your life? You know, look, I don't think that the approach is to try to, like, deprogram someone, which you probably are not going to succeed at anyway.

50:01But to me, and this is one of the things that I talk about in the book, to me the opposite of love isn't hate, it's curiosity. It is curiosity. It is the willingness to approach something unfamiliar with interest rather than fear or contempt. And I think that we need to model that in our friendships and our relationships. So the way I would approach someone who's in this position is to ask them questions. In other words, not to tell them, like, oh, here's 10 reasons why you're wrong. Because that's not going to work, number one. They're just going to shut down. But also, it's the relationship that matters.

50:43And also, what you're doing is opening up space for curiosity, which is what has been lost. Right? The unquestioning piece is what's been lost. So to even ask people, you know, I'm curious, where did you hear that? Where did you come up with that idea? And I remember you telling me this.

51:02Coleman Hughes:It can be a very powerful question because if I just said, well, you know, the algebra is Jewish and they put the letters in the math to bedazzle us. Well, where did you hear that? Well, yeah, it was this guy on Tucker Carlson's podcast. Well, what were his credentials? Was he a mathematician? Well, no, he was a landscaper. And it's just, as you say it out loud, you increasingly, obviously that's a little bit of a caricature, right? But... But it's a lot of things are like that when you review it. Even the more realistic version of that conversation gets a person to actually back into the fact that they're not an expert on the subject.

51:45Coleman Hughes:They probably saw a convincing two-minute TikTok reel. Basically, yes. At most, they read probably one article from a news source that they could be easily made to see could be biased, right? Is it possible that that news source could be biased? It's great to frame things as a question, as you said, because a question tells your friend or loved one the subtext, I'm interested in what you have to say. Correct. And the subtext in communication, as we know from relationships, at least the wiser among us know or learn very quickly is just as important as the text, whereas telling someone here's why you're wrong, that's the exact opposite subtext.

52:27Coleman Hughes:I don't care what you have to say. You couldn't possibly have anything to say that is interesting to me, right? So framing things as a question, is it possible that source could have been biased? Again, possibility is a really important threshold to put there because it's... It's a low threshold. It's a low threshold. It's a low threshold. Yes. And it really is what we are operating with. Most of us normal people, we're not spending 10 hours a day chasing the footnote to the footnote to the footnote and then contacting the initial source that said that the Israeli guard trained a dog to pee on whoever, right?

53:03Coleman Hughes:So we're all operating in this information landscape where we are just trusting sources that seem trustworthy to us. And yet we know that even the hallowed halls of the New York Times can literally put a quote-unquote starving child on the front page who is in fact not a starving child. His brother who is not starving is cropped out of the frame. And so we know that those, if you want to call them not-so-innocent mistakes that always go in one direction, we know that happens all over the place. And so if you can use questions in a tone of curiosity rather than attack to unspool that for your friend or family member, it's not necessarily going to convince them, but you're going to be able to air that argument in a way more constructive way.

53:53Coleman Hughes:And that's not something I'm inventing. I had Daryl Davis on my podcast recently who has the distinction of having deprogrammed over 200 neo-Nazis and white supremacists as a black man. And I said, how do you talk to these people, Daryl? And he goes, well, first of all, do not try to convince them. Lose that expectation when you walk in the door. And then you're just asking questions, right? So I think that's very important. And I think it's something also that comes so deep in Jewish civilization. When I talked about what are the aspects of Jewish civilization that dominant cultures perceive as a threat, one of those things is debate, civil discourse, and dissent.

54:36in Jewish civilization, we train children to ask questions. And I mean, that is to me something that also, you know, broader American culture can learn from as well.

54:47Coleman Hughes:Yeah. Okay. One of the questions, what about the issue within the Jewish community about those Jews who perpetrate anti-Israel narratives or voices? This person is thinking in particular of Jewish New Yorkers that say voted for Mamdani or like his stance on Israel, which he totally didn't care about in the primary, or rather in the campaign, and now is obsessed with. Yes. You know, look, as I said, this is a community that has always had dissenting voices. I mean, that's, you know, two Jews, three opinions is not just a joke. It is part of Jewish tradition. You know, the reason the Talmud is 3 ,000 pages long is because it includes everyone's opinions and not just the people who won the argument.

55:32So, you know, those people who don't agree are always part of the community. And you're not going to find a Jewish community where everyone agrees. Like, we don't have a Pope. We don't have an Ayatollah. So, which is why it always annoys me when people are like, you know, why isn't the Jewish community as good at, like, messaging? You know, we need a better PR, blah, blah. I'm like, you know, it's really easy to stay on message when you kill the people who don't stay on message. So, you know, we're not doing that. So we're at a disadvantage. Yeah. Yeah, so hats off to people who are on many different messages.

56:04But what I will say is that I think that there's a misunderstanding about the history of anti-Zionism, which I talk about in the book, I bring it back to its origins, which the first anti-Zionist tract, the first anti-Zionist text in world history is the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, right, this forged document that was pretending to be about this cabal of Jews who are plotting to take over the world. Protocols of the Elders of Zion is created by the Russian secret police in 1903. It is written in response to the world Zionist congresses that had then been happening for the previous six years.

56:47So, I mean, that is an anti-Zionist text. The only thing I will say about Jews who are taking this position of, you know, and it's one thing you can say, oh, Jews were always debating about Zionism. I'm like, you know, that was a fun thing to debate in 1920, right, when it was a fun hypothetical. It's a really different thing to debate in 2026 when there is a country which is where half the world's Jews live. The thing I will say about people who take this position is that Jews who are anti-Zionists are coming from a position of almost unfathomable privilege. Almost unfathomable privilege. because you can have a fun hypothetical conversation in a Harvard seminar room or at a New York dinner party about maybe Israel should open up its borders and see what happens.

57:41Like you can't have that fun hypothetical conversation. You don't have that privilege when you are living in Israel and you saw on October 7th exactly what happens when Israel opens up its borders. This is not a fun hypothetical conversation you're going to have in a bomb shelter. And so I think that it is, yes, we have all these rich opinions in our community, and I think what is really remarkable about this one is the almost unfathomable level of privilege that comes with it and makes it possible.

58:10Coleman Hughes:Okay, Dara, final question. What is the final solution to the Jewish question? Do I want to ruin the book and spoil the ending? You know, I actually do come to an answer in this book. And I spoke earlier about how Jewish civilization has always been this anti-tyrannical movement for thousands of years. This is a community that, even when it was at the highest possible cost, does not bow to tyrants. Does not bow to tyrants. And that is something that requires courage. It requires courage to be a Jew because you are living in a world where everyone around you is going to disagree with you on many, many things that are most important to you.

58:57And when you are a person raising Jewish children, you are raising them to understand that you're going to be living in a world where most people around you don't agree with you. And that is a model for being a person in the world. That is a model for courage and integrity. and every person who's Jewish today is here and is Jewish because of people in the past, and in some cases for people who are Jews by choice it's themselves, and for each of us, everyone today is essentially a Jew by choice. Or it's people somewhere in your family's past who made this unbelievably difficult counter-cultural choice not to bow to tyrants.

59:44the people who don't bow to tyrants are the final solution, and they always will be. And I hope all of you will be inspired to be part of the solution.

1:00:03Coleman Hughes:Okay, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you, Dara. All right, thank you. This was great.

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