Christophe Egret on Leading Studio Egret West, Architecture with Soul and Building with Purpose

30:38And I happen to believe that it's the second. We create collectively, all of us create reality. And if we are coherent, if we are alive, if we are active, we then shape that reality and we create good architecture, good urbanism, good landscape. At the moment, it sometimes feels like the tail is wagging the dog rather than the proper way. And it's not so easy to be comfortable in that inner world because it's becoming more and more difficult to be calm, to be, you know, we are bombarded by 24-7 news cycles. We are bombarded by social media. We are watching digital screens eight hours on average a day.

31:25That's a third of our lives receiving information from a digital screen. It can be a little bit of a challenge to breathe and eat properly and meditate and look at the world with clarity. The platform of Soul in the City is to say, can we give a voice to all these wonderful things that could inform the outer side, from the inner to the outer side, and make a city where you can go on the top of Primrose Hill and watch the sunset or the full moon, or you can, you know, close a street and create gardens where there were cars and children can play rather than go to their computers. Or, and I could go on and on and on about things that are, that you can't touch.

32:10So Soul in the City is really about all the architecture you can't touch. You know, if you can't, if you can't touch it, it's, it's on the, it's on the collective, cultural, emotional side. And that is what we should be filling our cities with. That's the starting point. We know that people are suffering from isolation, from loneliness. We know that old people are not seeing young people. So all these things that we could do to create intergenerational connections between several generations, playing in the city. you know, we play in the countryside, we cycle and we sail and we do all sorts of things.

32:51We should be able to do the same. You know, and there was a kind of moment where parkour was this kind of big thing that you could jump around the city. Well, and in China, they do Tai Chi in the big square, you know, all these things become really important. And I just feel at the moment, this is, if 80 % of the population is going to live in cities in human-made environments. You know, it's really easy to feel well in the countryside. You walk down the country, you're in the woods, you hear the birds, you see the sunset, the rain falls on you. It's like you feel that you are of the planet rather than on the planet.

33:35And that distinction is really important. I think for too long we've been on the planet. I would like to talk about being of the planet. I 100 % agree with you. I do believe that where we live influences so much of how we think. And especially as creatives, we know the difference of working in a space that inspires us, in a city that inspires us, in a place that gives us freedom of thought and creativity versus something where we feel constrained and feel in a box. and it makes a real difference in outcomes. And the same with any decision-making. I feel like if we are constantly stuck in boxes in a very uninspiring environment, we will be feeling certain feelings whatever the architecture and the place dictates us.

34:26Saying that, when you describe the nature and the countryside, I agree with you. I think this is beautiful and wonderful, but it comes with a challenge of no infrastructure, no convenience, no everything. And I feel like a lot of the time, the reason why cities lose its soul, and to be honest, any products and services in general lose the souls in a way to find efficiency and convenience and speed that people value at the moment and try to minimize discomfort. So even if we talk about communities in the houses, I feel like people try to avoid their neighbors because it's uncomfortable to talk to people.

35:05It's uncomfortable to meet a stranger. You need to have certain courage to come up to someone that you don't know and have a conversation and maybe feel embarrassed. And the more and more we develop things, the more we try to reduce the friction. And actually, the friction is what makes us human and what makes our lives worth living. So how do you find that balance between efficiency where we don't see anyone, we are in our straightforward way? Because if we can have that just a straight line that goes to work, we don't need to wander around. That's so efficient. It's so good. On the other hand, our life will be meaningless.

35:42So how do we find the balance between efficiency and practicality versus detour and the soul? Difficult question to answer. I don't think I have the answer, but I'll try. I've got a feeling that, you know, we've gone from an economy of production to an economy of attention. Everything is asking for our attention. I mean, we talked about social media, but, you know, I could, you know, and the news cycle. But all the time it's, we're distracted. And all the time we are being pushed towards individuality, whether it's the Apple, Google, or computer games, or some kind of TV program. it's your attention.

36:26And they're not allowed to be bored. We wait for somebody in a cafe or something and we open our phone and it's something to look at. And Instagram's algorithms are kind of, I erased Instagram yesterday from my phone and it felt like wonderful. So I'm on that journey of kind of reclaiming my attention should be mine. And also, we live in a consumer society for good or for bad. And it is your television and your washing machine and your home and everything is yours. But we could create homes that are collective homes. We could have watched a football match like they do in cities in Africa, at least 35 people in a bar looking at football on one television.

37:17In America, in New York, they share their washing machine on the top in the basement of a building and that's where they meet each other. So all the things we can do to kind of break individuality and everything that we can do to reclaim attention, I will, and maybe this is part of the conversation we can have after the podcast, but is a little closer to our well-being, to our connection with other people and to that clarity that then helps us to design cities that are a little bit closer to how nature would design the rural environment. If we feel so good when nature designs a rural environment, then we should take guidance and concentrate on the river, concentrate on the quality of the air, concentrate on noise pollution, concentrate on celebrating the noise of children playing.

38:17Because I can still hear, when I lived in Paris, we overlooked a courtyard with children and I can remember that sound of joy that children had. And now, apart from half-time, you don't see the children, they're hidden away. Where are they? And they're the future. So, you know, I'm not sure I answered the question, but I'm sure that that might open up a few questions later on. This is very interesting how you thought of the kind of the communal spaces and the way we can learn from nature. I definitely think we can just learn so much more from the environments that we feel good at. And I love the example that you gave about the washing machine.

39:06Again, it poses an interesting challenge. Like on one hand, I agree those spaces with washing machines is a fantastic way to meet people, queues, any other, any places where we can be stuck with other humans for no other reasons for long enough time, create these wonderful small conversations that potentially can lead to long-term friendships and relationships. But again, if we think from the convenience perspective, of course, everyone would prefer a washing machine in their flats instead of going downstairs in a basement and being stuck for two hours. So when you talk to developers or clients, how do you push for that inconvenience or soul or something that is not straightforward because they want the most efficiency, they want the numbers, they want the business outcomes.

39:54And these things, like it would be more difficult for a developer to sell an apartment that doesn't have washing machines in that, but you have to go to a basement. So how would you find a way to push people for those special moments? One step at a time. I mean, I think developer traditionally, not all of them, tend to make a calculation based on the past. That's how people used to do things and therefore they'll want to have a car in their car park and they will want two cars in the basement. We can't do a development without that. But over time, you know, automated cars will happen and smaller cars will come along.

40:37Some are electric, some are not. People take on bicycling. We pedestrianise certain environments. So the planners have a really important role to play here. Not more than one car per flat or even less ratios today, but more space for bicycles and so on. So whenever we are often the people who, as architects and urban designers, who translate the desires of the planners, who are also following the desires of the politicians, who eventually are really following the desires of the citizens. My answer is step by step, little by little, pushing the envelope as far as you can push it without breaking the tree.

41:17And also having a good narrative. It's better for the project. It'll be cheaper. It'll be, you know, you can. you can articulate it in certain ways. If you don't need a washing machine in your apartment, you have a tiny little bit more space. And maybe that space can be for a piano or for a yoga mat or something else that helps to make your space better. In the end, I think it comes down to, we all need to speak and to be active about how we want to change our world for the better. So that is the point, is that there is currently, I would suggest, we are collectively pushed to being quite passive.

41:59You know, we receive information and we've forgotten to be active, to fight for what we believe in, to fight to change the view of our politicians. We tend to vote every four or five years and we kind of then forget about, you know, how to influence local and national politics. And so it's quite important to, and even, you know, even in your street, somebody in my street, we said, oh, we could have a centralized energy system for creating cheaper electricity. You know, and suddenly this person's taken initiative. I'm lucky I live in a street that is quite well defined that really came together.

42:42Strangely during COVID when we kind of were so bored at home that we would talk to our neighbors. You know, sometimes you need a little, I know COVID was terrible for some people, but for some others, it was actually a moment where new discoveries were made and new connections were made. This is so great how you mentioned about developers or clients sometimes thinking in decisions based on the past versus us, creatives and architects and designers can give them the glimpse of the future. And I think actually that's probably now would be the biggest selling point for anyone creative trying to convince clients of any sort of vision or any direction that maybe not has been that directly maybe easy to convince.

43:32Because I think now everyone is obsessed with future. Everyone is on one hand scared with the future. On another hand, they're trying to understand how to prepare for the future. people look at trends, people look at future forecasting, foresight, all of these things, and try to analyze how AI will affect the future. So maybe now is one of the best times to sell our creativity, imagination, the soul through the lens of the future, because this is something that a lot of clients and developers actually struggle with to understand what does the future look like. And we are the unique glue who can give them the glimpse and visualize it in sketches or write about it in a story or just describe it in a way that other people will see the future.

44:15So I love that you mentioned future as one way to sell the kind of the ideas and maybe creativity beyond what the brief is. Were there any other things? Because you work with City of London, you work on Springfield Market at the moment, which is one of the most exciting redevelopment in London and iconic in many ways. So you work with very serious people who care about very serious thing and numbers. Are there any other things that you felt like they react to or resonate with them when you mentioned someone maybe future, but are there any other things that you feel like they cared about? They're not just numbers and finance.

44:54It's never just figures and numbers. I mean, sometimes it is, but on the whole, you know, people are also people who go cycling, who go to the restaurant who like to do it. But sometimes when they put their business hat, they think in it and then they face with the bottom line. I think you're right that we are at a tipping point at the moment of it's very hard to find solutions that worked like in the past. And therefore, you know, every 20 years, every 30, 40, maybe I don't know exactly the figure, but every so often you have to kind of reinvent. The old rules don't work anymore and you have to review the rules and you have to be a little bit...

45:41At the moment, I'm going to just add a little thing that kind of amuses me at the moment. I've been rereading Jung's archetypes. You know, you have the joker and the lover and the magician and the outlaw and the rebel, the ruler. And I think we need a little bit more of the rebel and we need a little bit of the jester and a bit more of the magician and a bit of the lover, not so much of the ruler and the, you know, so maybe we do, I don't know, but rules are quite important too. But that's where I'm playing at the moment, I kind of, and it's not one window you look through, you look, you have to look through that window, imagine, and then look through that window, the magician, the magician who can turn despair into hope, the gesture who thinks about the present, the lover who kind of looks for beauty everywhere and kind of try and reinvent the future.

46:42And if that future is connected with that coherence that I was talking about earlier, then we have a better chance to create more interesting future. I think it's really, yeah, you're right. It's so important that we, that we invent the future that we want and that we don't, we don't just inherit our future. We have to shape it and no better time than now. No better time than now. I am obviously subscribed to that philosophy considering Future London Academy believes that creatives are the ones who define the future and can definitely change the world for better. And we're all responsible for things that we're doing now to make sure that the future is bright and is something that we all will want to live in.

47:28So I'm glad to hear that we're not the only one thinking about it. There is a need for it. There are other people on the planet who care about these things. There are so many questions about the practice and your studio. So I would like to kind of go back to that part of your life. And actually, before we jump into questions, I would like to ask you about you stepping down because it's not an easy decision to leave your own practice. Why did you leave and was it always the plan and you always knew at some point you will leave your own company? Was it a spontaneous decision and how did you assess if that's the right thing to do?

48:06It took me by surprise. I thought I would be in the studio for till I was 85 and or however long I would be given to live. But the numbers just worked. I was 65. The practice was 20. The EOT was four. And I don't know, sometimes, and more often than not now, you have to follow your intuition and you have to say, ah. And also, I mean, one really good reason for stepping down is that it gives a little bit more oxygen for the rest of the practice to feel like, ah, maybe my voice can be interesting. And so you shake things up. And just in the same way we're talking about, you have to shake the past and there are times when things have to become a little bit, the rules have to be broken.

48:59I'm sure that me stepping down has allowed the studio to kind of change its inner architecture and inner creative forces are kind of slightly different. It's also given me more time and not kind of lazy time, but time to think about other things that I would never have had the time to think about. I've been reading extraordinary books, seeing extraordinary exhibitions, listening to extraordinary talks and hopefully I will be kind of making a few voices on the soul in the city come to life and also just have time to become. You know, running a practice takes a lot of energy and a lot, and sometimes you can close your vision a little bit.

49:45I appreciate how you decided to prepare for stepping down with employee ownership. And I don't think every country has the same kind of scheme that allows basically employees to become partial owners of the company. So therefore, you don't need to sell the company to someone else. So you can basically leave it running and be directed by the people who are part of it. Why did you decide to go that route compared to selling the practice or maybe finding another director who will step in in your shoes and you will still be an owner on the practice afterwards and then creating, I don't know, a foundation that will look after all the kind of money that will continue to grow.

50:29So why employee ownership versus any other direction? I guess because if you sell a company to a bigger company, 90 out of a hundred times, the ethos, the quality, the nature of the original practice is lost and subsumed into the bigger practice. It's absorbed. And very quickly, all the talents that were in the original business kind of go and find different ways. So it might be a good financial solution, but it's not a good, if you really believe in the purpose of a practice, which is to create everyday wonder and to make the world better and to be a good placemaker, and you know that it will have to change.

51:11It won't be like that for forever and ever, but if you keep to that mission statement and the people who are running it have been there for 10 years, five years, maybe some people 20 years, you have such a much better chance of success. And actually the EOT framework was created because it was in particularly in a small and medium enterprise, so much better success by giving the ownership back to the people who are already working in the business and understand the day-to-day, who understands the roots, the root of the building, who understand the soul of the place, who understand that the Beotap is there for Thursday and Friday evenings and not for Monday mornings.

52:01So that's why we did it. And I hope it's successful. And now reflecting on that decision of going for UT, first of all, you're still happy that you made this decision. And what, if anyone currently thinking of going their route, what would you want to warn them about? Maybe something that you didn't know that would be part of the process that you wish someone told you? What I didn't know is that it would take so long, is that people don't metamorphose from employee to initiator. It's, you know, learning how to speak to clients, learning to be present, learning to find new ideas that will be economically viable.

52:40It takes time. And some people rise to the occasion and others don't, and as you would expect. The other thing is that it shouldn't be a free for all. It's not everybody can be creative and everybody can push into what you have. So still, I mean, one of the things that we initiated very early on at Studio Agro West was let the best idea win. It sounds like, you know, you have to let the ego out and you have to, but on the whole, it's worked really well. people kind of know what is the best idea, even if the best idea is not theirs. And if you have that at the beginning of your creative statement, it's kind of useful.

53:25I think also, how long does it take to make that transition? Because there's also, we're talking about a financial transition to the studio is paying the directors to be able to then in the future earn better bonuses, there's better salaries and so on. So, so that also takes time. And that needs, that needs to be explained. That is, it doesn't just happen the day you become an EOT, it takes time. Brilliant. And for anyone who is interested in UK, EOT, a lot of interesting resources, unfortunately, it's very different from every country, how the employee ownership works. I think US has something similar.

54:04But I actually don't know how it's structured around other countries. It's very, very specific to certain regulation and the way of doing it. But it's definitely something that I personally see many branding agencies doing that don't want to sell to bigger conglomerates. A lot of generally creative businesses explore it. But yeah, as you said, it comes with its challenges, but I think it's ethically and maybe philosophically one of the best ways to create succession. But I think there are technical things that people should be aware of going through this process. Okay. Let's pick some questions from the lovely audience.

54:40Said is asking, how can you maintain the spirit of innovation and passion in my team? Most of the time, especially during challenging periods when ideas are sometimes rejected. There isn't a, it is not a simple answer. It is a, when somebody rejects your idea, when a client rejects your idea. I mean, I would say that architect more than most other professions able to take a slap and, you know, kind of metaphorically speaking, fall down and then stand out. I mean, the number of competitions we've lost, and we still do competitions, and occasionally we win two or three in a row and it's wonderful, and then we're on the roll and then we lose three in a row.

55:23It's a form of mental resilience that one has to have. I guess you also have to be careful not to be so attached to your ideas. And at the same time, I think we have to do more is architecture, urbanism are really expensive businesses. People are spending the biggest amount that they're ever going to spend. So you have to respect that. And so architects have to listen. It's not just their little obsession that has to be catered for. And I wanted this brick like this and the windows like that. The conversation is bigger. So, you know, listening, compromising, you know, if you get 70 or 80 % of your authorship through a project, this is good.

56:14This is, you know, you have to accept that all. And the other way to kind of approach it is that some architects are really good at identity. You know, with Zaha Hadid, you knew exactly and you still know exactly what you're going to get. You're going to get curves and it's going to be expensive and it's going to be memorable. And it's, I can invest in that. Or these studio A. Grey West knows how to reuse this old building and give it a second life. And it will be there for another, you know, I'm going to choose them. So the more you, you, you're clear about your identity and the easier it is for clients and architects to be talking the same language.

56:55So then, then there is, what I'm kind of saying is there's less chance of the ideas being rejected. Also, maybe, uh, sometimes you have to fight. Sometimes you have to say, okay, I'm leaving the project. I mean, it doesn't happen very often, but it has happened on a couple of occasions. Did you win? Did they come back to you and say, please don't leave, we'll take your ideas? No, I think when we said we'll, I mean, I'm thinking of something that was like, we were really happy to leave the project. On the whole, you have to just develop good conversation, make the compromise, make your peace with a certain regret, re-energize yourself and keep going.

57:37It is sometimes, I mean, the answer to the question is, you just have to be resilient and you have to find that energy somewhere. I have two follow-up questions in what you said. One, you mentioned about losing the competitions and losing the projects and kind of being resilient. And I think there are two parts of that resilience. One is your own mental resilience of, okay, I can do it. I know. And I think there is a lot of your personal psychology and training that you need to do to get to this point. But another thing is the team. And how do you announce this news to the team? How do you make sure that they don't get demotivated?

58:12Did you have any rituals or the way you decided to work around that when you lose a competition? Did you give a debrief with the team? How would you announce the news? Did you find any better way of doing this throughout these years? It's so much easier to celebrate a success than a disappointment. I mean, the way we would do it, and we still do it in the studio, is to take a bell and ding, ding, ding, or a glass and, you know, we've won this project. And when we've lost a project, we might wait a couple of days before and we'd wait for the right moment to mention it. And usually there is less a positive and less a negative, and you kind of have to weave through that.

58:55There is not an easy way. Sometimes you just have to say, we lost this project. And when you lose a project, we've all lost it. The team has lost it. Everybody has worked until three o 'clock in the morning and many, many hours and on the weekends. And like everybody in the studio, they've learned that resilience. I'm actually always surprised how resilient the whole team is. Well, I think that, again, comes back to having a soul and having that culture where you feel supported, you don't feel alone. And I feel like then people, I suppose, unite around bad news and good news. I mean, when we lose a competition or we lose a project, we often refer to, oh, it was stolen from us, or it was, you know, we were meant to win, or they didn't understand, or they were completely focused.

59:44We invent our stories to justify. Sometimes we have seen, oh, that was a better project. They deserve it. So sometimes you have to also be honest about that. But quite often, no, not quite often, but quite often, there has been some projects that were not as good that one, and it was a blow. Well, I feel like we all can relate to that experience, no matter which industry we're in. So, glad to hear. I love that you mentioned kind of storytelling, of turning what it is. You kind of turn it into learning, whether you turn it into this story of what you stand for, and that you're still great, and the project has been stolen.

1:00:23And I think a lot of communication from the leadership perspective comes down to storytelling that you give to the team as well. And also in that honesty I was talking about to learn about the mistake and see, oh, if we had done that extra drawing that talked about the atmosphere of a place or if we worked on the facade in a better way. And so all the time we can, you can improve and, you know, and yeah. We have a few more technical questions. Yazid is asking about your innovation and R &D. How can the expenses of R &D be covered? I think you mentioned all these exhibitions and these thought kind of provoking ideas that you had.

1:01:04How do you budget them? How do you cover these expenses? Where does it sit within your company? It comes out of the profit margin. Some profits go to bonuses. Some go to improving the studio and others go into the R &D. you have a budget and you stick to it. And so I remember the early ones would cost, you know, maybe 10 ,000 pounds for an exhibition, for two or three people working on an exhibition, for the time for very different people to think with the creative ideas of the R &D. But I think we have made those calculations and we probably, that money spent was multiplied many times by the new jobs and the noise it created about our practice and how suddenly they felt that we were ahead of the game.

1:01:59And that's good. So I think the important, I suppose, factor there is, it's not just spending time and money on R &D, but also making sure it's shared and people know that you've done this R &D and you kind of communicate your findings and learnings. We create a specific website. We create a little brochure. We write a little manifesto. There would be an exhibition. There would be money spent on food and drinks for 200 people to come to the opening. There would be some talks. So we were talking earlier about the atmosphere of the studio. But, you know, everybody in the studio is invited to that event.

1:02:42And so out of the 200, 50 or 60 of these are from the studio and they're getting to talk with people in the industry and they feel engaged. So that's also how you keep the spirit up. And did you always have this idea of doing this? The reason why I'm asking, I feel like in any studio, in any creative team, there are always these ideas, let's do this and it will be fun. It will bring us clients and we'll help our culture and all of this. And I'm sure you've done many ideas that may be not in that format or didn't work. So first of all, was it obvious for you? So this idea in this format will work.

1:03:15We need to do this R and D we need to create a website, create a party and share. And this is what will potentially bring us clients. And at which point you decided, okay, we've been doing it for a while. It definitely works. We should keep doing it. I think it's definitely been in the last 10 years of the 20 years or 21 years of the practice. Before that, I think it's also a question of scale. You know, you have a budget when you're maybe that's one of the advantages of being more than 35 people is that you have the budgets to do the R &D. Before the R &D might have been focusing on the content of the website or it would have been about publishing a book or it would have been something else.

1:03:57But whatever it is, you have to learn to communicate to the rest of the world what it is that makes your heart beat. what makes your, gives it, you know, what is the fire in the belly that makes you tick? Because if people, clients in particular, want to feel the enthusiasm, want to feel that you believe in something, and that's why they're going to give you that job, the enthusiasm, pure enthusiasm. And that's often why we invite people into the studio so they can see the atmosphere and really feel that it's not just a director or an associate or that is full of talk. It's the whole studio is kind of lit by the same flame.

1:04:42Oh, thank you for sharing the journey of discovering this and also how many different aspects of the studio's life it touches. It's nice for me, particularly now that I've stepped down to talk about these things, because they are precious and I'm quite sentimental about those things, yes. That's good. That means you still have a soul, no matter how many years you've been running the business. We have a few last questions before we wrap up. One question was from Vera about the size of the studio. You already mentioned that 35 or around 30 was your favourite size to get on a bus and go places. But in general, Vera is asking, I'm looking for some advice regarding studio size and team structure specifically when the goal is to maintain close proximity with both clients and collaborators.

1:05:28If I were the sole person responsible for running a studio while also wanting to ensure a close connection with clients, what team size do you think would be ideal? More broadly, what do you consider to be comfortable studio size that allows for strong collaboration among team members, but also fosters close relationship with clients? 35 is a wonderful size. And the reason to go bigger is either because you've got more than one big project. It's like when I stepped down, we were 70, 80, 85 people. It's sort of double the 35 kind of zone. And what it means is that you can have specialists on mapping and you have a specialist on computer generationing this, and you can have a specialist doing research on artificial intelligence.

1:06:17So the size means that you can have a bit more specializations. And also you can move a team of seven from that project to that project and then bring back. But with it has the problem that when the project stops, then you have to find work for these seven people. So For 20 years, I remember David Lukasen and I always kind of asking for advice on the perfect size, and there is no perfect size. And you just have to follow your intuition. I would say maybe that the remaining agile is probably the most important thing. Being able to start small and then grow in an ideal situation. and that's something that we never properly did, but we touched on it at some point, is collaboration.

1:07:16If you want to grow bigger for a short period of time, if you've made good contacts with the industry, other architects, other teams, another team of seven people, do you want to team up with us on this competition? Do you want to team? And actually clients ask for collaboration anyway because they want the safe pair of hands who've done it before, but they want the young creative because it's important and they want a female company because otherwise it's, you know. So suddenly the industry is forcing us to collaborate. So the key element of collaboration, I think, is really one worth, you know, particularly in the contemporary environment of the industry today is really a good way, an agile way of growing and contracting to adapt to the different projects.

1:08:12I love that you mentioned collaboration. I think Barbican is the famous example of the architects who decided whoever wins the competition, they all built it together. And I mean, Barbican is a beautiful example of space with a soul and experience in so many different corners of it. So definitely collaboration is brilliant. A few last questions. Christoph, you've been running a company for 20 years. You stepped away now. If you had to start a company now again, what would you do differently? I would be more precise about the authorship. So I would, I, I, and not, not that this R studio is not precise because of the thing that I explained before, which is that people are spending so much money on your product, on your product, that if your authorship and their requirement are aligned, there is a better sense of, of things working, working together.

1:09:11And I think for me, that is the, that's the, the crux of the matter. Do you want to be an architectural practice or an urban design practice that is a service industry, which is the way that a lot of the industry is going towards? Or are you still the writer, the author, the drawer, the imaginator of the work that you do and that it's not completely prescribed? And, you know, I would say that the architectural profession has to also reinvent what we were doing 20 years ago. We will not be doing in five years' time. The rules of the games are changing. Artificial intelligence is changing, is actually changing the material side, the construction, the, you know, the pipeline of coordination with engineer and so on.

1:10:01That is, I would suggest is, is, will, will be eventually automated. Not yet, but it will. So the architectural profession have to think about placemaking, have to think about the soul, because I don't think AI is yet able to kind of create social cohesion and playfulness and dreaming and praying and celebrations and rituals. That's not what it's being designed to do. So if I was designing a practice now, I would say that's definitely, it would be more inner soul rather than shape and form. You will have a very clear vision and very clear brand around your practice that would be all about the soul and all about building spaces that bring this soul.

1:10:52Love it. Brilliant. Well, we have a question actually about your favorite places with soul. What would be your top three places, cities, places in London that actually have a soul so we can go, all of us, and experience what does it feel to be in a soulful place? I didn't prepare for that question. But I do think that of all the cities in the world that I know, maybe with the exception of Venice, London is extraordinary. It has gardens and trees and squares and low rise and rivers and parks and hills and Parliament Hill and Primoz Hill and Alexander Palace. And I'm only talking about North London, but it's an extraordinary city.

1:11:43So there's so much to enjoy. And the thing about London that is so interesting is that it was a series of villages that grew and grew and grew and kind of touched each other and made this big city. And I think that what is happening now is that the Westminster and the Southwark and the Islington and the Camden and the Hackney are redefining their own identity. So that even if we're in the wider London, I mean, I had some friends coming from Paris on the weekend and once upon a time they would have gone to Soho and Covent Garden and Kensington. And every time they were going east, they were going to Stratford, they were going to Hackney, they were going to Haringey.

1:12:35So to answer the question, Stratford Park, I think, is one of the most beautiful spaces, an extraordinary swimming pool. Studio A Grey West's shawl that is shimmering above the station, made of titanium leaves that move in the wind and kind of tell you about climate and so on. I guess there, and in that area, you've got Eastwick and Sweetwater, which is also a master plan that we did a long time ago, which once upon a time was pylons and wasteland. And now is one of, you know, a new kind of part of oxygen in the space. And you can, yeah, and you can never beat walking and promenading along the river, the South Bank.

1:13:20And, you know, one of my wishes is, could we have another bank on the other, on the north side, which would get the sun from the south. And, you know, but instead of which we've kind of put a big road there and we can't, you know, so in front of Somerset House, you can't walk along the river. And once upon a time, there was a project, I think it was at the Millennium, when there was this idea of a floating pontoon that would go the length of the time. So my third That proposal is not built yet. To put the seed in somebody's mind sometime in the future. I love all the suggestions. I'm definitely with you on London being full of soul.

1:14:03And I personally love walking around London. And as you said, it has so many different areas that were villages at some point. So you do feel like you move literally from one village to another when you cross that path. whether you're going from Clackhamville to Shoreditch, it does feel like you literally are in two different little towns. And I think that's what makes London so unique. And diverse. And diverse, exactly. I have one last question left for you, Christoph, which is a bit philosophical that we ask everyone who comes in our podcast. If you could change one thing in the world, what would it be?

1:14:36You didn't tell me that you would ask me a question like that. If I could change one thing in the world. At the moment, it probably is something that I've already mentioned, but that we are of the world and not in the world, that we are not there to extract. If everybody could understand that they are part, they're all connected and part of the same river, they are all the different waves of the same ocean. I think there would be such an extraordinary, I mean, you know, a lot of Buddhists and other religions talk about that. But if on a day-to-day basis, we all kind of understand that, then I think we'd have better cities, better societies, better citizens talking to each other and maybe a few less wars.

1:15:30Yes, to more of this and understanding that we're all part of one big planet, Christoph. Thank you so much for your thoughtful, wise answers and bringing soul to all of us and reminding all of us that we all have souls and also that our cities have souls and we should create more soulful projects and just think more spiritually in the work that we do. It's such a great reminder, especially in the world of AI and technology that we live in now, that there is still space for that imagination and creativity. And I think it's now more than ever, we are craving it as a society, as a community, as a creative practice.

1:16:14We all want that connection with humans. We all want emotions and experiences that unite us. So thank you for sharing your stories and visions. I've enjoyed it very much. And thank you so much for those nice questions. Thank you. And thank everyone for joining and listening to our conversations and asking thoughtful questions as well. As you all know, we love sharing this wisdom as Future Learning Academy and we hope that it inspires you to do something great and change the world for the better. One step at a time, one step at a time, but hopefully that will give you some power and inspiration to do something small within your work.

1:16:55Thanks everyone for joining. If you found this insightful, please share your thoughts, your reflections, anything you learned anywhere in the world so more people can start thinking through soul, through spirituality, through bigger world and the planet we live in. Let's spread this great thoughts to the wider creative community. Thank you very much, everybody. I will let you know when I have a website that is running on soul in the city. I hope nobody takes the name before I have to do that. And maybe that among the people listening today, there will be people who want to talk about, who want to be part of a podcast about something that talks about that non-material side of a city.

1:17:36I'm looking forward to listening to all these conversations. It's something that we definitely do need to get us inspired and engaged with these ideas. Thank you so much again, Christophe, for staying with us, for finding time for these conversations. And thanks everyone. And until next time, bye! Bye-bye. Thank you.