Design for Good | Chief Design Officer, Cat Drew, on Turning £1 into £20 Through Design

37:09And from my personal experience of having conversations with a variety of design leaders it is this point that you reach in your career where you start questioning things of like okay i've won all the awards i've done the brilliant designs i know how to do good design but what do i leave behind me and you become more aware of sustainability of other issues that surround design and you realize how big of an impact you have on actual potentially negative influence on our planet and you become more conscious about everything you do. And I'll be very honest, I personally become stuck somewhere between anxiety of, oh my gosh, there is so much to change.

37:52How can we do it? It's a lot. And everything I do can have negative impact, but can have positive impact. It's too much. And I also have to champion the design and design leadership. But on the other hand, I need to do all these other things. So it kind of, it sometimes can be a paralyzing feeling that you need to care now about more things. Now that you realize that this is the power that you have, now you need to care even about more things. On another hand, it is a very valid question to ask when you, okay, you already have influence, you have power, you are in some sort of leadership position or an influence position of any kind.

38:27Maybe you don't have direct management or leadership, but you have influence around things that you create. where would you recommend someone to start this journey not to get overwhelmed but everything that is wrong with our planet and that it's impossible to fix overnight how would you

38:44Cat Drew:recommend to start thinking about it well i think in a way uh that kind of uh system paralysis you can sometimes call it or a system overwhelm when you realize oh my goodness the scale of the the challenge that i have to tackle how everything is interconnected if you do this thing over here it pops up negatively over there you know can feel totally paralyzing but I would always say that actually design and designers is a really good place to start because they start through action and I think so much of the kind of the system sinking world gets stuck in that analysis of what's happening and doesn't actually start somewhere and for me that is the absolute power of design design is this amazing thing to well let's start creating a smallest possible expression of the new system that we want to show people to excite people to to demonstrate that it is possible and build out of that rather than trying to boil the ocean but you know to go back to the kind of the original point of it all designers have got this huge power and responsibility 80 % of the environmental impact of a product is determined by a designer at the design stage through the material choice through how it's designed whether it can be disassembled how you're thinking about not just one life but its fifth life and on the flip side if you're not a kind of product designer or an architect dealing with materials actually 60 % of the the emission reductions that we need by 2030 will require behavior change and guess what designers are amazing at behavior change because they make sustainable choices irresistible easy frictionless so design has got this huge huge power and why wouldn't you use it if we all want a kind of future for us to to all live in and where to start well I mean we as you you said we have over the past past five years had our design for planet mission which we've been building we've had a skills um design for planet festival each year with all the recordings on our website we've got an amazing last year was the biggie we had we hosted the world design congress with a thousand designers from around the world coming to the Barber Contento in London to talk about that.

40:59Cat Drew:So we've got all of the recordings from there that you'd ever want to watch. And amazing speakers from Indie Johar to Nat Sae-Audrey Chiesa to Jan Bolan. We had Tori Chowder, the activist, and Brian Eno really powerfully on stage. You know, Tori was asking everyone, designers, you have got huge power. within that power think carefully about who you're designing for whose lives are you improving and whose lives you're not and so that kind of call to action is a good kind of place to start and then if you want some practical kind of skills about how to then put that into practice we have a movement to upskill one million designers in green skills by 2050 and a skills for planet blueprints which we co-designed with over a hundred of our experts designers from fashion, product, service, digital architecture.

41:50Cat Drew:So it sets out those skills in six areas which I can go through with some really practical advice about how to do that. We've got some Skills for Planet training which we offer through some of our experts on our website and we're about to launch in October our learning lab where we are going to be offering different free different kind of CPD, green CPD. We're starting with eight different prototypes to test which educational formats learn back best, but that is going to be to kind of fill this gap which we see of designers being able to access the skills they need. So yeah, watch this space. Love, love, love this and I'm always so impressed by the sheer amount of work you do as an organization for public benefit and distributing it for free for everyone to again take a note get inspiration and i actually know um from a lot of other organizations in other countries design council is always shared as an example of someone who managed to build such an incredible system and infrastructure of championing design and positive impact at such scale and as you mentioned you you attract actually global talent and global interest to this topic so it's not just benefiting us as the UK but also benefits the wider world of communities taking all those skills and all the inspiration to their local countries and governments and going from there which is brilliant.

43:24Cat Drew:So just on that as a result of the World Design Congress we launched or the Minister the creative industries endorsed our skills for planet mission movement rather that we launched there and then last month san diego and tijuana had their design week and they launched their skills for planet mission to upskill one million of their designers and so hopefully we can see this thing was seeded around the world in different countries because actually you need a global movement of designers working in this way rather than just one country doing it this gives me so much hope about the future. This is brilliant.

43:59Would love to, I suppose, hear on the other side of this conversation. We actually were having a chat with Don Norman, obviously very legendary designer and writer and hugely influential figure in the world of design. And he has been advocate for human centered design for a long time. And the latest book that he wrote is about actually design for planets and for making the world better and he has been sharing that it has been a struggle for him to advocate for that mission even though he has incredible influence he obviously already proved that what he does and what he thinks can create incredible impact his book the design of everyday things is probably one of the most popular books among designers And still, when he starts talking about human-centric design for the planet, about action for the planet, about the role that designers have in that mission, he mentioned there is a lot of resistance from governments, from businesses and from organizations to care about it.

45:02going back to they want to see the numbers they want to see their financial impact and it's almost like another thing they have to care about now now we're doing all of that and now we have to care about planet and and society and and i also love that in your framework when you talk about planet it's not just sustainability you you talk about society you talk about like all sorts of other influence that the design can make so how again would you advise someone maybe like don but also to all of us who are not as influential as Don himself, to even start these conversations within governments or businesses, where, again, there is so much on everyone's plate at the moment, from just in general uncertainty of the market, financial performance, technology, everything else.

45:49And on top of that, us as designers already have to advocate for the value of design, for all the things that we could do, and now we have to advocate for the planet. so what would be the maybe practical way to start this conversation so to gain the momentum within

46:05Cat Drew:the businesses but i think again this all comes down to the kind of the multiple outcomes that you're designing for and linking that to the organizations that care about it so i mean i don't think i can advise don really but i was at an event uh with him a couple of weeks ago as part of london climate action week uh which was designed for good which is this amazing alliance of loads of big global businesses like Nestle and Pepsi and Lloyds Bank and Logitech and so on who have all kind of given their designers volunteers time to work on projects related to the sustainable development goals and if you look at the latest sustainable development goal report I mean it's all orange and reds right like none of them are kind of green they're all either stable or going backwards some way which is you know really significant and if you think again about governments yes government has to care about growth but also government has to care about mental health it has to care about education it's got this wider array of statutory things that it has to achieve for its citizens otherwise they're just not going to vote vote for it so I think you know again it's like it's it's positioning design to serve the the kind of the outcomes of those different stakeholders that and based on what they care about but for business I mean again I would go back to that point that I made earlier about the way that we've tried to reframe design for planet in very very business speak so kind of reducing your carbon becomes it saves money through cutting material costs it makes sustainability irresistible becomes it increases commerciality so those are the things that we've tried to do but I mean we're in a fortunate position because within government we sit on the creative industries council where design sits but we also sit on the net zero council and so you know for us we we've got a a conversation with the department whose explicit role is to reduce emissions and so they have to care about that at the same time as growing business growth and we're saying you know design can absolutely do both of those things at once.

48:14Brilliant well that definitely gives me hope and I do feel like it's finding that alignment between what you're trying to do as individuals or organization or as a team whether it's design or creative team and what another stakeholder organization cares about and finding that alignment and going the same direction definitely produces much better results than trying to kind of pull things apart so brilliant examples as we are talking about hope and the bright future. You obviously are involved with Futureland Academy, not just by having great conversations, but also you've been judging the final project of our executive program.

48:50So all the lovely, incredible design and creative leaders who come on our year-long executive MBA. And then at the end, they have to present what they're doing next, whether it is their business plans, whether it is their new businesses they're building or what changes they want to make within the organizations they work. and you've been watching all of their presentation as part of the judging panel. So we'd love to hear your opinion of what have you seen maybe as an outsider looking into these great initiatives they're planning? What did you spot about maybe the state of design or the state of design leaders thinking from that?

49:31Cat Drew:Yeah, I mean, it was such a privilege to hear all of the amazing kind of journeys, I suppose, that they've been on. So they're obviously all at that stage of their careers where they are starting to think a bit more. Well, they're thinking about legacy, about what next. And I was just struck by some of them really, I think, felt the itch to go back and do the designing and really miss that kind of very hands on. And we're making the decision. Do you do that or do you get more into the leadership role? And then your role is actually to do that lesson and be comfortable with supporting and empowering others.

50:03And I think that's the bit of the leadership that I really saw shine through from some people.

50:10Cat Drew:You know, there were people from Guatemala, from Nigeria, from Qatar, who were talking about how they create the infrastructure for a design economy to grow and thrive, which is obviously very aligned with what we do. so I was like brilliant there were some people who were talking about how they work with a collective from the UK a collective of other designers to come together to show the value of design for good business growth and so it was these kind of people who were seeing their role not as to kind of create a finished shiny thing in the kind of normal double diamond you come to a kind of a point of one thing but actually almost opening it out like Jenny Winhill says into a funnel how you're creating a platform for lots and lots of innovation and ideas and people to thrive and i think that's you know shifting from doing the doing and the finished product to creating the platform for others is a key part of leadership i 100 agree with you and we always felt like the design can have such a massive influence and design leaders are in very unique positions to create that influence not just on their businesses and yes they can help grow the revenue and scale their companies their businesses to the next level but I also love that as you said every single person who was presenting their final project thought about that legacy piece not just the immediate results of financial benefit but also what do we live on this planet how can we impact the communities and societies we are part of so that definitely gives me hope that there are more and more of these incredible people who will be actioning on our behalf and thinking about bigger things and changing the world for the better, one by one, company one company at a time.

52:02We have some pre-submitted questions that I would love to ask you. What evidence do you think clients and consumers will trust most in five years time? Certifications like B Corp or businesses being able to demonstrate measurable regenerative impact? Well I think they'll probably come hand

52:21Cat Drew:in hand because I think for BCOR you do have to show some of that kind of impact measurements but yeah I probably I would say I mean the the biggest thing for me is probably you know you do the certificates. Certification is a kind of an outcome where I'm sorry an output whereas the outcomes is what you're ultimately aiming for and actually what the BCOR movement is aiming for so So I'd say they probably come in that order. Great. We have a question from Rebecca. It's a very long one. So I hope I'll read the good parts of it. With Design for the Planet, I'm interested in seeing more of a radical shift in our relationship to the planet.

53:00For me, it's really simple. Designers need to build out of the studio, of their laptops, and into the real and deep connection with the local wild, not just as a hobby, a nice view or something to enjoy on the weekend. designers have really powerful skills but what kind of much more radical solutions might come through when designers have hands and soil feet and rivers and bodies fully immersed in the seasons and changes of places most needing good design I love that it has like such a poetic um but I'm not even sure if it's a question of a statement but I suppose do you have a a perspective on

53:40Cat Drew:designers going into the nature oh my gosh I mean yeah I'd fully kind of uh endorse that and I think particularly uh you know with more and more of us just designing on our screens with gen ai meaning actually we're not we might not even be doing the design it might be an agent doing the design you know there is no so on the kind of human center thing there is still no substitute for going into a job centre and really understanding kind of the visceral feeling of someone coming with their shopping bags full of their medical records you know really defensive and worried about you know what might happen if they even took that first step to um going back to work how their needs are benefits you don't get that from kind of synthetic user research And on the flip side also, what can you feel when you're out in nature?

54:33Cat Drew:How can you reconnect with the earth? How can you learn from fractals, from kind of how everything is connected through mycelium webs, how you can see the patterns of swallows and how they kind of work together? All of these things are huge inspiration that designers have always taken, particularly biomimicry designers or those indigenous low tech solutions, which are you know quite often have got nature at their heart so I think it's incredibly important and there's something actually coming up which is the Royal Designers of Industry at the moment they've got their keeper is Jo Gibbons who runs a landscape design practice who've done amazing work actually in the front of the National History Museum but she is incredible and really thinking about how designers need to be entwined with nature and they are created, each year they have a summer session at Darsington Hall in the south west of the UK and it's open so if any designers want to go and be part of that and that is a whole weekend of being immersed in nature and doing exactly that.

55:41Yeah love it, I have so many friends actually who stepped away from design either part-time or fully stepped away from design to go into more hands-on nature related activities from gardening to landscape design to other things which is fascinating to see that there is as you said there is this already big relationship between designers and inspiration uh in in the nature and how it's literally unlimited source of ideas that nature gives us but i think at some point also So we have this inclining to get back in touch with everything nature gives us, which is, I think, why not in the world where everything is becoming digital, going back to the physical is the way to go.

56:27I have a question about the new generation of design and the young talent. How can we shift designers' mindset from thinking that our role is just to create new stuff for the sake of nice colors and typography, whether it's posters, t-shirts and even having their online stores just because? as if this will change the world or will make their career or the design industry better? Do we need to change the narrative for young professionals?

56:53Cat Drew:I mean, yes, I would say. So some of the ways that we've been doing that, I mean, yeah, absolutely. I think there's a big conversation in the UK, at least, about design technology at school and how we need to really change the curriculum. Design and technology has been going down by 68 % in the last 10 years. So that's a huge, huge kind of concern for the design industry in the UK. Part of that, I think, is about parents not understanding the value of design, which goes back to all the things that we were saying at the top of the podcast. But also the curriculum is a lot about just making things right rather than solving or trying to kind of solve a part of these complex challenges.

57:35Cat Drew:And we have just been working with the government to influence the curriculum review. So from 2028, sustainability and inclusion will be part of the design and technology GCSE. So that's one thing. The other thing is in the UK, there's something called New Designers, which is a kind of a show of lots of amazing emerging design talent from universities. and we have for the last four years created a design for planet award which we just judged last week some of the team went and judged and awarded it to i think i remember her name is diana flower and she created this um this design for a circular system but we're thinking not just about the product itself but actually the whole system around it so that kind of push into thinking about these big challenges and thinking and taking a real systemic design perspective is the things that I think design where design education needs to go I love that the new generation of designers but in general the new generation it feels like they're more aware of the the world and the impact we all should think about and how we can be part of this kind of movement so I do feel like it's almost more natural for them to have this as part of their curriculum to understand the tools and the frameworks they can use to create a positive impact so it's great to hear that that has been implemented I wonder as you've been kind of doing this a lot in the UK but also you've been across the world and spoke at many events and conferences and collaborated with local communities I'm sure you've seen that I suppose the understanding of design and kind of that ladder of design is at different stages at different countries.

59:22And one thing that we hear a lot as a question in our future London Academy community is it's all well in the UK, you also had in terms of everyone's understanding of design. And again, we can take any part of design, whether it is branding or whether it is UX, digital design, product design, industrial design, or systematic design and kind of organization design and kind of all the other more intangible types of design but us in and then put any country name that maybe had this conversation um only for the past maybe five or ten years we we're kind of trying to navigate the first step of how to communicate even the the value of visual design and the branding forget the systematic design and all the other things that you're already kind of talking about and i always feel like there is a big opportunity for anyone who kind of at this stage now not to go through this 80 year journey and kind of jump through certain stages that we had to go through because of technology because of communication because of just the state of the world what would you recommend someone uh who feels like their local community is not there yet with understanding of design or understanding of planet's uh impact of how to go

1:00:39Cat Drew:through this journey faster well i mean we are being approached by a number of countries who kind of wanting to do that so I think a lot of countries might have a really rich heritage in kind of product design or kind of or craft so the design of things and spaces but I think where you see kind of more where design is more diffuse across other industries like design into public services design into healthcare that's where you see just design not being a specific kind of sector in its own right that actually diffuse so we know for example in the uk 77 percent of designers don't work for design agencies they work in all of the other bits of the economy and so the first thing that i think we would recommend is people do a piece of research about what their design economy does look like and where there might be opportunities for design where there's need for design in those wider industries and yeah as i say that's what we've kind of been doing with a a few kind of places around the world and you know hoping to have more conversations on the on the back of the design economy launch in september love it and would you recommend any particular types of partners that usually help first of all in doing this research but also getting this attention to this research um so for example partnering with large organization or governments or local like what would you if someone decides to do to start doing this research in their country to show the value of design what would be the strategic partners that would actually benefit on this journey yeah so I think definitely I mean definitely kind of engaging with governments both the bit of government that looks after the design sector which is often part of the creative industries but also the parts of government that could really benefit from design whether that's health and health whether that's housing whether that's energy use whether that's Public sector services is quite an obvious one.

1:02:41Cat Drew:And GDS, Government Digital Service, which is another UK kind of export or great example of design, is a really good way to showcase the value that design can bring to government in that respect. But I would also say engage your design community as well and understand what clients they've got. So some of them might be working with those types of clients anyway. and then engage your local business kind of nefora, because actually this is about not just growing the design sector and the supply of design, but actually it's about thinking, how do you grow the awareness of design among commissioners who need to use it and marry those two things together?

1:03:20Brilliant advice, I love this. We have a question from Zeynep. I want to share this dilemma I keep running into. Meaningful change requires designing for systems, but clients, public or private commission projects, usually on temporary subsidy. When the funding ends, the work dies and the next project starts from scratch. How do you negotiate that gap between being commissioned for deliverables and designing for a whole system? And has the Design Council found ways to make projects build on one another or grow into something self-sustaining rather than always starting over?

1:03:54Cat Drew:I mean, this is a perennial challenge, but I think there are some ways of doing it. When we worked with the Greater London Authority on a programme called Designing London's Recovery, we were really trying to think about this right from the beginning and thinking about how you design for legacy. So that programme had four missions that the GLA at the time was working on, which were around good employment, which were around healthy communities, one other I forget. But we were trying to work out kind of what their policy objectives were. And then how do you start a number of different innovations which are led from communities or businesses or universities within those?

1:04:35Cat Drew:But all of those projects, we weren't just thinking about the project itself. We were helping them think about how they create more scale, either by influencing a policy so that actually more people around the UK have to do something similar, creating an inspiring story so other people want to fund it and become involved and add more resources into it all by creating a further connection so using the actual design process to create more connections to then build the project even further and and so i think you know if you know that you've got a project and it's got a kind of defined beginning middle and end make sure that part of the project is thinking about all of those sustaining things but you know it is hard and sometimes it doesn't work and we've had lots of projects at design council where we've had these big ambitions and it hasn't gone anywhere so and then the other bit I suppose which is always really important is thinking through kind of impact and evaluation because that is actually what you often need to have to be able to make the case for continuing the work.

1:05:41I think this is a brilliant answer and actually we have one more question clearly it is a hot topic very much related to project-based versus continuous collaboration so Simran is asking project-based work for design strategy and design for sustainability is abundant however how can designers make a business case where such work becomes a retainer-based engagement considering funds are put into sustainable strategies design more project by project and with a restrained mindset any any other ways we can build this retainment model for sustainability yeah that I

1:06:15Cat Drew:that I don't know I mean I guess I guess a lot of the retaining stuff is is is built on trust and good relationships and so you know that investment in really understanding the clients and and and demonstrating demonstrating value I think is probably at the heart of it the other thing I mean the other thing I would be saying is like what is the case for an in-house role within that client team like do they have a chief design officer do they have a kind of a design the you know what what's the kind of the thing that yeah kind of builds it kind of at the heart of what they do and I think the the kind of the other bit of because what you want to do is you want to have really good people who get design capability within the organization who feel that they can always reach out to you so I think that kind of capability building alongside it is really really important so not just delivering the project as a kind of standalone thing but investing the extra time in building those wider relationships and and also the capability of of the clients I mean the other thing that we have have said is we've got a part in our projects to recognize exactly that thing that no problem is ever really solved actually if you work in systems there's always another bigger challenge if you're dealing with mental health you are never going to solve mental health there's always another bit that you need to work on so rather than the double diamond just finishing neatly at this point the systemic design framework opens up into a continuing the journey phase and that's always about what are the other who are the other allies working in a similar space who are working on similar purpose to you how can you connect with them how can you build alliances and so that you're always part of these kind of bigger networks because i think that's really and because you often will need to have lots of you working together on a portfolio of work to really achieve change so sorry it's not a need project by project answer but i think that's part of the issue right how do you break away how do we how can we experiment and break away from some of these uh time-bound procurement models.

1:08:25I love that you mentioned trust because I see that in other parts of the industry as well just in general retainers are going away whether it is creative branding agencies like any other type of work. I hear it from other organizations that in general it's much harder to get a client or retainer and in general and clients in general don't like retainers because why would you retain for no reason but what it comes down to it is trust and partnership and how can you keep providing value to each other and that's the power exactly what you mentioned of trying to embed yourself within the organization even if you are an independent studio or a consultancy how can you be more than just an outsider kind of being attracted to project by project how you can be constantly thinking about the client and proactively think about their challenges what do you need to know about them to make sure that they don't come to you with a project but you're more ahead of them and thinking okay this is on the horizon and again applies to any industry whether you talk about branding digital work like any design or again systemic sustainability work how can you be proactive and be more helpful to clients seeing that we think this is happening we see that's where the industry is going based on what we've seen you doing this with English, you should do that.

1:09:46And by the way, we can help you, but by all means, you don't need to use us. But the more you do that, the more clients start trusting you that you don't just come there to get money for the project and run away, but actually you do care and you build this partnership with trust as with any partnership and trust and relationship that you genuinely care about your partner and you want to bring some value, even if there is no immediate return on what you're doing, there is some sort of relationship built from there. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And yeah, and you can see it as a kind of a biz dev strategy as well.

1:10:19I would like to ask, Katya, who do you think we should bring as the next podcast guest? We always love asking our lovely guests, what are you interested in? What do you see on the horizon? Who are you fascinated by? Who you would want to learn from? That's a great question.

1:10:37Cat Drew:I mean, we're just about to kick off a big project about how design should be at the heart of kind of a nation's AI adoption story thinking about how you create how you how design can be embedded so that AI is genuinely purposeful ethical and sustainable so I think organizations that are doing interesting things around that we held a roundtable that as part of London Climate Action Week and we had people Usman Huck who's one of our experts who was talking about kind of how you design AI agents which are kind of which like do not just kind of reinforce the extractive economy but actually create a different one people like Sarah Gold who's been doing a lot of work around AI and trust people like Cuba Buttwicky at GDS government digital service so I think that would be a really interesting example for the next session brilliant and I agree I think there is so much that design and creative community can do in this rapid changing world and I think again we are best placed to to be those guardians but also visionaries who can show not just what the future looks like but what the better future looks like and how we can proactively design for it rather than wait for it to happen and I love that you are having this conversation with incredible leaders in that community and we almost avoided conversation by AI for the whole one and a half hour but no no we cannot we cannot um but i think it's um it's definitely something that again designers can have a massive influence on so i love that you're doing that proactively we have one more question before i suppose uh we can wrap up this conversation sarah ellen is asking as a project program and portfolio management profession from business i would like to bridge my career to a purpose-led movement where should one start to make a difference oh well that's a huge question i mean look at purpose-led move purpose-led businesses um so i'd start with someone thing like before because that is an organization which brings together purpose-led organizations yeah i think it's right now it's probably the best time to to be part of any purpose-led movement organization there are so many problems that need to be solved there are There is not lack of problems to be solved.

1:13:04So if you want to make a difference right now, it's a really great time to start doing it or create your own organization that will make a difference. Depends on what you are passionate about. And I think it's probably the key without jumping into, I suppose, any organization that tries to make a difference. There are so many problems that could be solved, but actually picking the one that you genuinely feel passionate about and connected to, because then you will actually keep doing it and keep making an impact and actually feel good about it because that's something you generally care about I think it's incredibly satisfying so definitely check out lots of organizations there are in that space.

1:13:43Kat I have one last question that we ask everyone who comes to our lovely podcast and it's probably even more relevant for the conversation that we just had today if you could change one thing in the world what would it be?

1:13:57Cat Drew:I would make businesses kind of responsible for environmental and social outcomes as well as economic ones and give them the value of design as a way to achieve it there you go oh brilliant love it uh and yes to that i think there is so much more there we can do to all as a society as the world to contribute to the positive future that we all want to see and want to be part of so definitely more businesses i think should and I think we'll actually start making an action. I'm positive and hopeful about the future. So definitely that could be a good future for all of us. Kat, thank you so, so much for joining us for this conversation.

1:14:42You're always such a pleasure to talk to and so knowledgeable about the topic, so knowledgeable about everything that's happening in economy, the industry, all this stats. I don't know how you keep all these numbers in your head. This is so impressive in a world of short memories and you can pull all sorts of case studies and thank you for sharing additional resources we also link to all these resources and as FutureLine Academy we also send the newsletter with the summaries of our conversation so we'll make sure we link all the links that you shared there so people can enjoy the case studies the metrics, the approaches the design council has been championing and we can all benefit from from this hard work that you and your organization have been doing.

1:15:29Thank you so much. And thanks everyone for joining. We love that there are so many curious minds in our Future London Academy community who care about the future of the planet and want to have these conversations and want to be proactive with what we do as design and creative communities. So thank you for being part of it and hopefully being inspired by Kat's thoughts. Thank you, Kat. And if any of you find anything that we shared interesting, inspiring, controversial, provocative, or just delightful, please do share it on any social network that you prefer, whether it's LinkedIn, Instagram. We love seeing what resonated with all of you so we know how to create better conversations and what more we should talk about.

1:16:13So please do share. It really helps us to bring incredible guests like Kat and have great conversations about topics that really matter. Thank you everyone for joining and until next time. Bye.