What it really takes to lead a global creative team | Tim Greenhalgh, Like a Moth, ex Landor & Fitch

24:38Tim Greenhalgh:organically bitch because obviously the business grew i i took on more responsibility and then before we knew it we had several offices in several locations in lots of different parts of the world with several creative directors and those creative directors needed managing and the creative process needed managing and codifying so that people understood what it was we were trying to do and i think that i'd always said that as a creative director or a chief creative officer whilst i needed to clearly understand how to design things and i was always pretty hands-on i still enjoyed designing and sketching and doing whatever and that can be very annoying if creative directors are taking a mouse or somebody's hand and saying do it like that that is really annoying so but i'll be drawing on the back of on things and sketching with people all that type of stuff and because i enjoyed it i enjoyed the process and also it was a way in which you communicate with fellow creatives but my view was never to pretend to be the best interior designer or their best graphic designer or whatever my role was to make sure that there was a culture where creativity thrived and that was as much making sure that it was appreciated by other senior people in the business who weren't who didn't have creative in their title and kind of looked at the designers as the weird ones in the back room covered in paint and crayon and my job was to make sure they were seen as really powerful strong contributors to the process of coming up with a fantastic solution but also to be very hard on designers who weren't taking it seriously who weren't using the opportunity weren't building a studio culture that was determined ambitious curious and all those different words and so it was very much it was very much that that was the thing the one thing i that surprised me that i was asked to do and i hated because i thought it was so lame and stupid was that everybody because i was chief director officer i had to tell them what good looked like and it was like fuck off what i think's good doesn't matter but they just they just needed they wanted to know they wanted a silver bullet they wanted to say we need to know from tim what is good design it's like no no no i need to know from you what you think good design is.

26:51Tim Greenhalgh:Yeah, it was remarkable. And also it was remarkable that a lot of other people on the senior leadership team who weren't designers or creatives, kind of, you know, when you find out at a dinner party that the person sitting next to you is a doctor. So you say, oh, by the way, my shoulder's been really hurt. And the minute they find out you're a designer, they want you to redesign their bathroom. It's like, that's not what I do for a living. Can you help us pick these tiles for our kitchen? This is brilliant. And I love that you talk about the culture as the driver to actually create good work.

27:20Tim Greenhalgh:It has to be, right? I mean, it absolutely has to be. And I love that you also talk about potential team members or designers who not necessarily want to push their work forward. So how do you deal with something like that? Because everyone has different motivations. I think we all need to kind of be realistic about why people have jobs. Not everyone feels like potentially that's their calling for life. So how do you deal when someone maybe is not taking on this kind of attitude of excellence and next level creativity? I don't know if Nick would agree because we work together, but, you know, there was never really that much shouting going on.

27:56Tim Greenhalgh:There was never really that much. I mean, we were all having a good time. We were all actually, it was a bit competitive, actually. And so anybody that really didn't want to do their best work was found out quite quickly by the collective as opposed to by the most senior person in the room. And I think that's probably the best way. It's a bit like being on a football team or a bit like being on any kind of team. You know when somebody's not pulling their weight and they're waiting for you to pick up the ball and pass the ball. Sorry, I'm going to stop that analogy now because it's too football and too blokey.

28:30Tim Greenhalgh:no i think i think there was a i think there was a genuine again the culture was was competitive sometimes it was a bit too competitive but whatever but it was competitive it was ambitious and it was and also i think designers were treated very well they were treated as really important people as opposed to the service service people that was the other thing also about our relationship with the client. Whenever we felt like we were a supplier, our work was never as good as when we felt like we were a consultant. And how did you differentiate it? What do you mean designers were treated well? Can you give an example of what did this show up as?

29:11Tim Greenhalgh:They were given time to come up with ideas. They were encouraged to present the work to the client. It wasn't a case of handing it over to the senior people who had been to Oxford and were really intelligent to go and present the work so they were they were the they were the heartbeat of the business i've worked in other companies where the designers are kept in a room off to one side and all the semi supposedly the intelligent people are the people that go off and present it and the designers really get very little credit for it or the brief is handed to them through a door and they say get on with that and we'll come back in a week and show us what you've come up with it was never like that it was it was the designers were working with the strategists they were working with the creative people, they were working with the researchers.

29:51Tim Greenhalgh:It was a very fluid, creative studio. And again, I keep coming up with that word. It was a studio and it was a studio culture rather than an office culture. I'd love to dive into a few things that you mentioned that I'm particularly curious about. Going back to the kind of excellence and someone who maybe is not motivated to create excellent work. Let's say they are found out by the team, they're not pulling on their way? Like, how would you go about it? Is it a simple like, okay, this person does not belong here? Would you try to motivate this person? What would be your way around this situation?

30:29Tim Greenhalgh:Well, I think that you would talk to them. You would work out if there was something about the way the studio was operating that really wasn't allowing them to do their best work. You would challenge them to come up with some interesting, more interesting ideas. And you would just have to monitor it you know and again i'm trying to avoid saying and then if they didn't come if they didn't show up properly then you get rid of them i'm just you just have to work with them you know because i mean again i think one of the things potentially behind your question is not everybody works at the same speed right and also some people have different skills than others some people are naturally more they're more showmen or show women some people are more quiet just leave this with me i'll get on with it and i'll come back to you and show you a really nice solution so you just have to understand the different dynamics in the studio.

31:15Tim Greenhalgh:But I think as long as the overall culture is one of ambition, curiosity, determination, wanting to do something different, then hopefully, you know, everybody kind of rises up with that as an ambition. What would be your, I suppose, answer to someone who says, this is all great team, but that leads to burnout when everyone is so competitive and trying to do their best work all the time, stays late, and that's just not healthy. It might have been okay 40 years ago, but we live in the world of now where everyone prefers to have multiple kind of career paths. There was a bit of that. There was a bit of that at that time in the late 80s, 90s.

32:02Tim Greenhalgh:It may still be. But if you think about it, at no point in any of our conversation have I mentioned anything about late nights or working late. to be honest as i got older i realized it wasn't as much maybe because i started having a family and you know so maybe it's all about me who cares about me i started to realize that it wasn't about that it was about when you show up for whatever however long you're there seven hours five hours eight hours from nine till five just make sure that we're all really trying as hard as we can and i don't and that's and there's and because i'm i'm very conscious of what you're saying about burnout.

32:37Tim Greenhalgh:And I think that we have a responsibility as senior leadership to not do that. Part of my frustration with my final company before I resigned was that there was an expectation that those in the leadership position who were not created could suddenly decide to change the entire scheme and would expect the entire team to work the weekend to sort it out. And it was always, they always made that decision on a Friday. That really upset me. I'm not claiming I'm some kind of Joan of Arc hero trying to save the world. But it was just like, come on, you are actually taking the piss. That said, when you are there, when you have been given an opportunity and are in a really interesting brief, then come on, you do your, you absolutely, because we're passionate people.

33:21Tim Greenhalgh:I mean, it's what we do. It's not a job. It's who we are. We want to create stuff. We want to do stuff that's different. There was one thing I do remember. There was a, sorry to everybody else in the fall, although I keep referring to Nick because only because he, we've got a little bit of shared history. There was a guy that, who was a remarkable designer who worked at Fitch back in the day, a guy called Mark Landini. He was on the cover of magazines. He was quite the poster child for the design industry in those days. And a few people, and every single piece of work he did won awards and everyone said, oh my God, I wish I could have done that.

33:54Tim Greenhalgh:Oh my God. So they said, they said, right. I remember them saying, we're going to show this guy. We're going to give him the worst project. in their view, the worst project that comes through the door next week. And sure enough, it was a DIY store in Belgium. After designing Jonathan Ross's offices and doing a restaurant and doing a wine shop, he suddenly got a DIY shop in Belgium. A week later, because of the culture that he created in his team, everybody said, why does he get the best project? Because he turned it into something that everybody got excited about. It wasn't because they worked all night.

34:30Tim Greenhalgh:It was just because he made people think differently about the work that they were doing. And I just, it always struck me when that happened. It was just, it was remarkable. And it struck me. And really, that whole thinking just made me think, there is no such thing as a bad project. What did he do? Could you remember what were the maybe - It was amazing. It was amazing. It was just a, I can't go into the detail now, but it was an incredible layout. The graphic designers that worked on it did a really interesting scheme. There was a really interesting idea about how you can teach normal people how to do quite difficult jobs in the house.

35:05Tim Greenhalgh:It was just really good. And it was like nothing you'd ever seen before. The client loved it. But again, it was more watching people kind of scowling in the corner going, why does he always get the best project? So what do you think was his secret now that you reflect back on it? What was he doing or saying or behaving that made people feel this way? It was his cultural mindset. it. Everything I do, I want to do. I want it to be different. I want it to be groundbreaking. I want it to be thought-provoking. I want it to challenge the convention, et cetera, et cetera. I suppose, yeah, visionary people do inspire others, do great things.

35:41And that's what I personally believe is the power of creativity in design is creating this vision for companies that maybe didn't think something is possible at that level. It's about, again, creating the culture where everyone thinks anything is possible, which actually leads me to the next question about the role of chief creative officer, because one of the interesting conversations that is happening in the industry right now is around ethics and around kind of technology versus humanity. And particularly, we are seeing many companies who start with good intention, eventually are taken over by finance and kind of numbers and maybe a bit of greed that derails them from their original vision to do something good or their original vision to help humanity or planet or anything else.

36:36And they become kind of slightly evil companies. And from my perspective, I feel like that does make sense because people at the top, potentially the data they're looking at is a financial data. It is a whatever market share, financial performance, everything that matters, which does not imply that it needs to be good for humanity. It needs to be good for the world or anything like that. And I do believe that chief creative officers or chief design officers, someone who comes from creativity, imagination and kind of empathy and feeling and understanding the user and thinking about sustainability and all these other things as your day-to-day role can bring this new angle to the business suite of, okay, let's wait a second.

37:25What are we doing? Why are we doing this here? Again, going back to the vision, it could be the vision, it could be ethical, it could be sustainable and go whatever this is, this is the missing ingredients in a lot of boardrooms. Someone with that and go someone who brings culture, someone who doesn't want people to work on the weekends because it will increase financial performance. So do you feel like there is a space for creatives and designers add this to the boardroom as an extra value?

37:55Tim Greenhalgh:Just so I'm clear on your question, are you saying adding that chief creative officer to the board of a commercial business or to the board of a design company? Oh, very good question. And I agree with you. I think it is slightly two different scenarios. When you're already a creative company, I suppose you have many of these values instilled as a creative business. Well, obviously, if you're any other company, then it's a bit of a different mindset. But whichever way you want to take it, I still believe even in creative companies, not every creative company, funnily enough, has a chief creative officer, chief design officer.

38:32So it seems like the problem exists even in that world.

38:36Tim Greenhalgh:Well, I mean, okay, I don't think it's a problem in that I think some companies don't need that level of structure because Fitch and Lando and then lastly Lando and Fitch need it because they have 26 creative directors in 26 studios around the world. And so those people needed corralling. those people needed, just like the client managers needed looking and the client directors needed looking after and the strategic directors needed looking after. They needed a senior person to make sure that they were all moving in the same direction. So I don't think a chief creative officer is a panacea for every problem or every business.

39:14Tim Greenhalgh:But your broader question, though, I think is something I've been thinking about recently is only because I've been finding it personally quite fascinating, which is where is creativity now? Therefore, what does somebody who has the title of creative director or chief creative officer, we can move between the two of those titles. What role are they performing these days? And what level of expectation is there either within design companies or within client organizations for creativity? Is creativity seen these days now as a bet on a roulette wheel or is it seen as a thumbtack in a wall to hold up the strategy?

39:56Tim Greenhalgh:And I'm worried now that it's seen as kind of a, it's seen too much as a kind of a bet. Let's hope it becomes right. I don't know why that's happened, but, and I don't know if anybody else on the call agrees, but I think that, again, I was having, I, as much as I had to create the culture, which is what I saw my role as, particularly in the latter role I had, it was also proving the validity of creativity and design within the company that was promoting itself as a design company, which seemed rather obtuse to me because we're a design company and I'm trying to prove the validity of it. But I'm not going to go into a huge amount of detail because that would be disingenuous of me.

40:35Tim Greenhalgh:But it was frustrating. The reason I'm just talking about a bet is because I think that, and I guess we've all seen this, the binary choice of do we do this or do we do that is driven now by very, very, very hard objective reasoning. Of course, one should never just do something based on a feeling, but some of the best things that have ever happened in the world have been based on a feeling, an intelligent feeling, notwithstanding, but it was based on a feeling as opposed to, you know, the idea that this thing could work, but let's try it, let's experiment it, let's prototype it. I've seen, I'm seeing far less prototyping these days than I ever have, as opposed to we need to get to the answers pretty quickly because we haven't got enough time.

41:19Tim Greenhalgh:we need to have this sorted before not too long. Whereas we were prototyping and testing things a lot back in the day. But also I'm starting to sound like a bit of a dinosaur now. So I need to be careful here. I think it's a totally valid point. But do you think this is exactly because of the speed of things? As you said, everyone expects things fast. And therefore you cannot see, or rather short-term value is prioritized over a long-term value. and things like trust, they're never short-term. Things like sustainability, things that actually make a difference, they are never quick wins. And by prioritizing decision, they are visible, as you said, in data short-term, that overall companies potentially are making these decisions because investing in something that is proven long-term seems like a bet, even though it's not a bet, it's just long-term rather than short-term.

42:18Tim Greenhalgh:I am really struggling with this conversation, not because I don't have my views, but just because the problem is I can see both sides in the argument. I can see why there needs to be more ambition and more prototyping and experimentation. but i can also see why the body politic that is the client needs certainty needs absolute definition and needs things doing quickly and actually a series of incremental things done that they can then prove to the people above them that they worked and they've made a difference rather than larger wholesale changes that actually could create such significant incremental improvements as opposed to just simple lots of little incremental improvements but again there's two sides to that argument you know they did brailsford who the ex-leader of sky racing would say you know bit just improve tiny bits everywhere and you'll improve a lot there's still an argument for that but i still want i mean something again if there are people on the call who have a similar experience to me who work in design industries when was the last time you really got a brief that blew your mind that was so challenging and ambitious and dynamic?

43:31Tim Greenhalgh:Or was it a brief where you go, I feel like I've seen this a hundred times? And that's not to sound conceited or smug or complacent, but just the briefs these days just don't feel quite as ambitious. But do you think that's the role of the creative or designer to make the brief ambitious? You can't put it on the client to make your dreams come true. As you said before, you have to push it back you have to come up with what it could be because that's literally your role as a creative to you're right further well yes but yes but i can think of the number of times where we've worked with a particularly brident ambitious client who really wanted to do something and had the ear of the ceo and they were the marketing director and like linker code when we worked with gilio and linker code i mean that guy really wanted to do something different really wanted to challenge every convention that was going and got a great result, got a great piece of thinking as a result.

44:26Tim Greenhalgh:So I do, I think it's a two-way street. I think it's as much the culture of the client and the ambition of the client as it is the skill of the chief creative officer and his team to encourage a client to say maybe when their instinct is simply to say no because you're not answering our brief. That's not what we asked for. You go, well, I know that's not what you asked for, but this is probably what you need. Never-ending debate of client experience. creative relationships. And I'm not, I mean, I am. I mean, am I slacking clients off? I don't, I'm not meaning to slag clients off because I think clients are, they have as many sleepless nights as we do.

45:00Tim Greenhalgh:Yeah, I 100 % agree with you. I think that's the basic of human relationship. I think in general, we find difficult to agree on things, whether it's client and creative, whether it's agency versus anything or even people on the same team. So it's totally understandable challenge, but it's a fun creative challenge. I would love to shift gears a little bit towards destroying ordinary and your way of thinking to make sure that the briefs are ambitious and the projects are ambitious. Starting with the question of creative rituals, you already spoke about the culture, but do you have a creative ritual, any ritual to get into this state of creative ideas?

45:37Whatever we mean by ritual, whether it is where you literally, whatever you do before starting a project or on a more holistic level, what you do within the studio to make sure you kind of, start on the right note?

45:51Tim Greenhalgh:Okay, so I think it's nothing particularly groundbreaking, but I think it worked just about every single time, which was, it was sight, insight, foresight, which was, we need to get out there and see what's happening. And that's very much looking at the convention through conventional eyes. We then, as a team and with a strategic team, we need to build an insight. We need to, you know, what is it we're trying to design here? Because again, the choice of, The use of words and the choice of words can actually premeditate the solution you come up with. Johnny Ives always said, you know, you should never say to somebody, design a lunchbox.

46:27Tim Greenhalgh:Because what you'll end up with is a lunchbox. Because you've said it, it's a box for keeping your lunch in. So somebody's going to design a lunchbox. But if the brief was design something for keeping food in that you can use at school, you may not end up with something that looks like a lunchbox. And that was an interesting thing for us as designers, which was being able to work closely with a strategic team, where spending time coming up with words was really important. And also being able to say to each other, in either a word, a phrase, a sentence, or a paragraph, what the concept was. Most designers, most creatives, people talk in paragraphs.

47:05Few can talk in sentences, less people can talk in phrases,

47:10Tim Greenhalgh:and it's very hard for most people to sum up their idea in a word. But actually, some of the greatest things that have ever been designed or some of the greatest concepts in the world can be summed up in a word or a phrase because they are so visceral. And I feel like we've wasted a lot of time designing stuff because we didn't know what we were designing. And the person over there thought they were designing something that was different from the person over there who thought they were designing something that was different from somebody over there who thought they were designing something that was completely different from what the client thought they wanted.

47:38Tim Greenhalgh:And so actually having a set of words that had you all thinking about what it was you wanted to do was really important. And then foresight, so that was sight, insight, and then foresight was very much us as a team, also strategic team and the design team, really trying to push as far as we could go into where the future might be. Because even though we weren't necessarily being asked to design that, if we could start to try to imagine it, it might also start to influence where our design might go in the future. So it was about keeping, keep looking forward. Does that make sense? Totally makes sense.

48:14And I absolutely love that you spoke again about communication, of communicating your idea in a single word or a phrase as a very much forgotten tool of making sure that everyone is aligned and you are going in the same direction, whether it is with client or with a team. So I think it's really, really beautifully described. I would love to also hear a bit more about your reflection on the 40 years the industry has been developing and evolving and especially the role of creativity and creative leadership has been evolving. What do you think changed in the way that, or maybe nothing changed, the way that creative leaders need to show up or what their responsibilities are or what they should do through their four decades that you've seen creative leadership?

49:05Tim Greenhalgh:so i'm going to say that now more than ever whatever age you are we still need to make to maintain an absolute and unparalleled enthusiasm for what it is we're doing because what we do is truly remarkable when it's done well and i think that when i was first offered the job even though they said you're the last thing we're looking for we've just won this big project can you start on monday you know i almost wet my pants i was so excited but that feeling never really went away i mean my early 60s that might have something to do with my prostate but i am again i still get very excited about what it is that i do and i think that is something that in whatever role you perform that should be infectious that should be something that gets other people excited about what they're doing and also that should get clients excited about maybe, is that word again, thinking about saying maybe.

50:04Tim Greenhalgh:It should come through the enthusiasm and the expertise that you're bringing to the table with an enthusiasm. And I also have realized that now more than ever, I mean, I'm reading more than I ever did. I'm spending so much time looking at stuff because I think I always have been a very curious person. But to even just exist in the creative world these days you your your level of curiosity has to go up even more to really understand the different ways things are being tackled and approached and different ways in which brands are responding to changes in consumer behavior changes in social media behavior all that type of stuff so and again you said it yourself hasn't it always been like that well maybe it has actually maybe that's i mean just picking up magazines watching programs going to the cinema, just completely immersing yourself in the whole subject, I think is just the only way to do it.

51:01Tim Greenhalgh:And I still, genuinely, I still love it. Absolutely love it. How do you scale though that approach? I think you as individual can be very passionate and you already spoke about culture and encouraging this, but when you start talking about multiple studios across the world in multiple time zones, as again, chief creative officer, you cannot have control of everything that is going on. So how do you influence through other people to make sure that these standards of high quality exist? You may not be able to control it, but you can influence it. And that's by having regular meetings and regular discussions and actually spending less time watching people present project work to you and having more time debating what is the future of design?

51:47Tim Greenhalgh:What is the future of this what do you think about this what's the most interesting thing you've seen in this last week that's again that's going back to the culture i was talking about that's what mark is the guy who always seems to get the best project he spent little time just doing kind of a review on the wall of all the designs we've come up with he was talking about bigger more broader subjects about have you seen what so-and-so has just designed have you seen this should we think about this should we look at this that's what i mean that's that's i think that when a creative director is really nurturing, whether it's a team of five people or a team of 500 people.

52:17Tim Greenhalgh:And with Zoom, you can do it. I was able, when I was at Landau Fitch, I was able to go to every studio once a week, every week, because I was just on Zoom calls with them and we got together. And yes, we had to make sure the projects were going right. But most of the time we were talking about broad, rather esoteric, abstract concepts about what was happening in their market. And sorry, So that was, begat the whole idea of Destroy Ordinary. That was our big calling card for us all to be thinking about. Can I just quickly explain it? Please do. So the business had miraculously come up with this idea of brand transformation, extraordinary brand transformation.

52:59Tim Greenhalgh:And whilst on paper it sounded quite interesting, it started becoming a stick that senior people started hitting other people with. So they would do a piece of work and they would say, well that's not very extraordinary it just started it just started becoming a term of abuse rather than the term of celebration plus it became clear that again people were saying we need we need you to show us what is extraordinary and of course i have a view but working with a couple of others and some bright sparks in some of the studios it became very clear that rather than trying to get to the top of this extraordinary mountain where you just you felt like you got to the top of out and there was a little bit more to go and all that kind of stuff.

53:41Tim Greenhalgh:We decided that what we do is we do it in reverse. And whenever we started then talking about how about we all sit down now and destroy ordinary, because there's a lot of ordinary in the world. Everybody leaned in and got really excited about this idea of destroy ordinary. And the beauty of it was, is that ordinary in Singapore is different than ordinary in Hong Kong, is different than ordinary in LA, or different than ordinary in Mexico or different than ordinary in London. Everybody has their own version because of where they live in the world and what their clients need to achieve. And so I said, the last thing I want to do, which was typical of a business at the time, was to turn this into a PowerPoint presentation.

54:20Tim Greenhalgh:So then we have this kind of manifesto on ordinary. I want it to be a living, breathing thing that we talk about every time we make. And it really, really, it really took off. And it became a thing that we all looked forward to each week when we all got together in the various studios to talk about how we could destroy ordinary. What was the thing we'd seen that was ordinary and how our work was trying not to be ordinary. And that was such a fulfilling conversation. It was really interesting. Really, really interesting. It's this beautiful approach and overall mindset to really create groundbreaking work, but also enjoy the process of it.

54:57It's actually constantly challenging your thinking.

54:58Tim Greenhalgh:It gave everybody a voice. You know, some people felt nervous about having to stand up and say what they thought was extraordinary because they thought they'd get laughed at. Nobody minded saying what they thought was ordinary because it just became a great big giggle where everybody was saying, yeah, that's really ordinary. That's awful. So what was the format of it? Everyone needs to bring an image. How does it work? Yeah, people need to bring an image. People need to, or we got a brief. So we got a brief from a Belgium DIY company. I'm making it up. What is ordinary about DIY in Belgium? And then we all talked about it.

55:30Tim Greenhalgh:So what could we do that would be better, that would make consumers more excited, make them spend more money, make them... And so it became the foundation of challenging convention, essentially. I mean, destroy ordinary is another way of saying challenge convention, whether that's a piece of graphic or whether that's a brochure or whether that's a piece of interior design. It was great. It's absolutely brilliant. What would be the outcome? I think, let's say everyone comes up with all these ideas. would you then try to pick one or direction? What would this lead to as the next step of the process?

56:03Tim Greenhalgh:So it was used as a way of starting the meetings and of having weekly team meetings with the various creatives in all the various studios. And then the creative directors used it on specific projects to challenge the convention on that project. So there was a universal destroyer of me. What we've seen recently that's just appalling and we could... But the other point was it was never just a case of let's just spend all this time giggling behind our hands about something we don't like. We have to then say how we do it better. Because otherwise, all you're doing is just standing on the sidelines laughing.

56:38Tim Greenhalgh:And that's not acceptable. That's lazy. We had to come up with how we do it better. That was the challenge. And that's when you start getting closer to extraordinary. Even though we chose not to go from the mountain top down, we chose to go from the bottom up. Oh, thank you for sharing. I think this is a great, I think just in general, conversation starter for any meeting, maybe not even a creative meeting. Maybe next time we'll go there with friends. It would be good to destroy some ordinary around us. I wanted to ask a few more about the future and where the industry is going. Again, you had this time to see four decades of evolution of the industry.

57:17Okay.

57:17Tim Greenhalgh:All right. Steady on. What do you think? What do you expect next? What excites you maybe the most about the next maybe 10 or 40 years of creative industry and creative leadership? I am interested in what the future of craft is. Craft was always associated with a manual process. You know, you would think of craft a bit. Whereas I think that with all the tools that are available to us now as creatives, I'm curious to see when we can start to really recognize where something's being done with real crack, as opposed to generic technical ability. And that's as true as making a cardboard model as it is as typing something relevant into an AI agent.

58:07Tim Greenhalgh:So I am worried. Am I worried? I don't know, that seems rather too grandiose. I'm keen to see beautiful work that's been beautifully crafted, no matter what the technology, whether it's a manual technology or a digital technology that has been used to create it in the first place. And the other point being is, is that I'm also slightly nervous about, and I've started to witness it myself, was that I was seeing the death of the idea. And I think I'd like to see the rebirth of the idea. ideas that are brilliantly executed and brilliantly communicated as opposed to brilliantly visualized. How can we revive it?

58:50I hear it a lot, actually. I'm glad that you mentioned it. I was talking to a few agency founders and clients and everyone talks about exactly the same problem that what we used to cherish is these big ideas, again, that executed and communicated. So kind of all the steps are there, but somehow we missed it. So how can we

59:11Tim Greenhalgh:resurrected right like we're doing now is start the conversation i think we as creative directors we as chief creative officers whatever you want to call the site we've been in the business for 10 years we've been in the business for 40 years and thank you for telling people i'm old i am i think we've got to start the conversation whether we whether we have to sit quietly in our rooms and work it out ourselves or whether we sit with our teams and just have the conversation because i'm i'm more interested in i in really interested in ideas have you seen the idea about or sharing ideas with each other than having a half an hour discussion about the 15 new things that Firefly can do.

59:44Tim Greenhalgh:Who gives a fuck? Thank you. I think this is a great reflection on what we're seeing in the industry. And following up on that, actually, what excites you about the new generation, whether Gen Alpha or Gen Z or whoever is 25 and younger? I do believe every generation is excellent at something and bad at other things, as we were, as your generation, any generation. So I think we hear enough about what's wrong with the next generation. We can all complain about everything that is wrong, as every generation does. But what do you think they're actually really good at? What do you see in young creatives that just surprises you and just makes you very happy and hopeful?

1:00:24Tim Greenhalgh:The best young creatives I've ever seen are the ones that hold on to their naivety for the longest. I see a lot of creators who come in who try to pretend like they've got 20 years experience. And that's not why we've employed them. We've employed them to be raw. And I think, and ever was thus. And I think, you know, and the raw, a student, a graduate who was raw 30 years ago was raw in a different way than a graduate who is raw now. Their ability to be more free thinking, their ability to be more experimental. at all. I'm seeing that in bucket loads with a lot of students that I see and a lot of young designers that I see.

1:01:04Tim Greenhalgh:It's making sure that with all the pressure of trying to hold down a job, worried about paying off their student loans, blah, blah, blah, blah, all the pressures that they have, which is different than when I was a child, which was a long time ago, if you remember. How many years ago was it? I think it's important for them to hold on to that. But I can understand that it's hard because, you know, they have to make a living and they have to get on in the world. And really tough. It's really, really tough. Thank you for sharing the hope. I 100 % agree with you. I think staying naive and raw is the best in any creative.

1:01:39I always love giving an example of Michael Wolff, who is a dear friend of mine and is 90 something years old and as curious and raw as a child could ever be and never stop being that way. And I think this is the only way to live your life as a creative. So please, young designers under 25, stay raw, stay curious. This will lead you to 100 years of happiness. That's for sure.

1:02:03Tim Greenhalgh:And if any of us on this call today get an opportunity to mentor those people, let's make sure that we encourage them to do that. 100 % agree. Okay, let's pick up some questions. There are so many that were popping up. Have you ever convinced a company doesn't want to invest in redesign their space but you believe that the brand can truly benefit from a refresh of the space to actually make profit no in that we never went speculating for work by but there has been times when we've been working with a client and there's been something that we've spotted as we've been working on something else where we've actually said to the client you know this is something we could help you with because we really think this would be a lot better we did a little bit of speculative work to show them what we meant.

1:02:49Tim Greenhalgh:And that was quite productive. But we didn't speculate in that regard. We didn't kind of go and analyze the client's business and go to them, even if they didn't think they needed it, just said, you should do this. But actually, I'm not suggesting that's a bad thing. It's just something that we just didn't do it because we had enough work really at the time. Luke is asking a very provocative question. Do you think the traditional creative agency model is at risk of becoming ordinary? And how would you design it from scratch if you had a blank sheet of paper and a check? I think that, how do I answer that question?

1:03:21Tim Greenhalgh:Because it depends on the agency, blah, blah, blah, blah. I think, yes, I think that we have to be careful that we don't do the same thing tomorrow that we were doing yesterday. I think we've got to make sure that we are constantly reinventing ourselves because we have to be a step ahead of our clients in terms of how we think about the world and how we come to solving problems for them and looking at problems for them. And so I think, yeah, I mean, I think that we should be, and again, a state of constant reinvention, but we and our industry is beginning to get, if not already completely, pigeonholed in terms of what it is they think we do.

1:04:02Tim Greenhalgh:And I think that that wasn't always the case. And I think that we've got to make sure that we are bringing new things to the table in terms of what we can do. Okay, I think it isn't, as with anything in the world, it is in danger of becoming ordinary because everything is in danger of becoming ordinary because we are saturated with stuff that we see. If I was starting from scratch, I think that I would create an agency that absolutely had design and strategy working in lockstep, not separately. That the designer's responsibility was to present the work to the client so they had to think even harder about what they were doing so that they could actually express it in a way that was hearing and logical.

1:04:37Tim Greenhalgh:And I would build in from the beginning a room that was called the experimenting room because I think we've forgotten how to experiment. And I think that a lot of our work is held back by doing what we know we can do rather than what we think we might be able to do. Easy answer. I don't know if that answers your question, but that's the best I can do in one minute, Luke. Brilliant answer. I also like that you spoke about the room to experiment. I do believe that any creative agency used to have a workshop or like things where you could play with tools. Pentagram still has a beautiful, wonderful place where people can pick up the tools and experiment and do things.

1:05:14and I especially feel like in the world of digital we kind of lost that physical space to come in and feel like we are not trying to create anything specific here we're just here for the sake of experimentation and kind of yeah and that experimenting room can have

1:05:30Tim Greenhalgh:soldering irons in it paper in it glue in it as much as it can have clawed x-code in it I mean it can have people sitting down experimenting with coding as much as it can be you know making things out of papier-mâché. Love the combo of Claude and papier-mâché. I would love to see that. There you go. That's the future of design. Adam is asking, how do you convince business leaders of the value of the idea? Do you have any specific techniques or example that you find help make the argument? By which I mean the value of idea as a principle. I don't mean selling a specific idea. Yes. So I think there is a difference between walking into a room and selling the client the design solution versus the language and narrative and storytelling that's required to sell somebody an idea.

1:06:19Tim Greenhalgh:Because an idea needs the sight, insight and foresight. It needs the context. It needs the single word. It needs the phrase, et cetera. And I think that as designers, and I'm being as critical of myself as I have of anybody else, is that we too quickly jump to the visual rather than to the narrative and i think that ideas have got to be visceral and be able to be communicated i was listening to a really great guy called blind boy if anybody's ever not listened to blind boy podcast listen to it he's an irish guy he's brilliant he wears a plastic bag on his head but he does a lot of work on irish folklore and he was saying that the reason that a lot of celtic communities and this wasn't being rude but he was saying because we didn't have things to write things down because most people couldn't write as opposed to people in England where there was a much stronger educational system we would tell stories to each other and if and the only way to tell somebody the story about that lake was to tell them that in that lake there lived a giant because if I told you a giant lived in that lake you'd believe you'd remember the story so we had fables and folklore and fables and folklore are great ways of telling stories and ideas and I think we've got to continue to develop techniques by which we can tell and express compelling ideas to clients and then show them the design that supports it rather than pretending the design is the idea.

1:07:51Tim Greenhalgh:The design isn't the idea, the design is the execution. And that's a mistake we often make. Sorry to sound preachy. This is great. And I do believe we use sometimes word storytelling too easily without actually telling the stories. We sometimes try to find narrative in the solution rather than the other way around. And I'm glad you believe in that. The reason the Giant's Causeway is called the Giant's Causeway is because Finn McCool, the giant, wanted to have a fight against the giant in Scotland. So he threw lots of rocks in the sea. Anyway, the Scottish giant came across the water and he was huge and his mother saw him dress Finn McCool up as a baby.

1:08:31Tim Greenhalgh:the big Scottish giant thought, if that's the baby, how big must the dad be? And he ran back to Scotland scared and ripped up the causeway so that Finn were cool, couldn't get a car. I've never forgotten that story. But I mean, that to me is how we should be telling our ideas. We should be creating. Yeah. That's powerful. That is very powerful. Nick is asking. Hey. I'm curious on your thoughts on the new hybrid reality we find ourselves in. reflecting on our time together to fetch the in-person time together with a huge contributor to inspiration, sharing, and richer connected creative ideas. Thoughts?

1:09:12Tim Greenhalgh:Yeah, okay. I mean, that is, it's so, I'm finding it quite painful because what Nick touches on, and I'm sure there's lots of other people, you know, we are inevitably social animals, not just because we're created human beings are social animals we're losing uh those moments of uh peripheral vision where you kind of go how did you just do that what what's that what's that you're working on and i think that you know i'm i'm clear i've always said that that this idea of hybrid working is is ridiculous it's actually dislocation and dislocation is painful i mean you dislocate to something because you're never quite sure where you're supposed to be you know you go into the office and you think you're having a meeting with five other people and they're all on zoom you could have stayed at home on zoom anyway in your pajamas and your slippers so i don't know how i don't know how to promise i nick i can't answer the question i see that it's a very very fundamental art of what makes a studio but i i think we're all witnessing the disintegration of studios because we are quite rightly having to take into consideration the next generation's attitude to wanting to work from home and mental health issues and all that type of stuff.

1:10:28Tim Greenhalgh:And, you know, that's not necessarily our fault. It's COVID. It's a whole heap of things. But I do think it's making it quite difficult because as much as we'd like to insist that everybody comes into the office, I think this is the point you're trying to make, Nick, right? As much as we'd like to insist everybody coming into the office, I don't know how we can do it other than, I mean, it was just the most thrilling time of my life. I mean, it was just brilliant. It was just such, I learned so much. I laughed so much. I just, I mean, it was just, sorry, we're getting into kind of like sepia pictures now, so we've got to be careful it doesn't start descending into black and white films.

1:11:08Tim Greenhalgh:But anyway, so what's the answer to the question? The answer to the question is, we as creative directors have got to find a way in which we can encourage a studio culture, even if it's not a physical manifestation. I don't know how you do that, But surely that has to be something we strive for. I like your open-mindedness about that. We cannot definitely go back in time and change people's habits and aspirations and what people want from their experience. But you're right. We can find new ways of doing the same things that made it special, but also make it so fun that people would want to come in.

1:11:45Tim Greenhalgh:My oldest boy who's 26 is an architect now. and he, the particular practice he works at, he goes in five days a week and loves it. And they make models and they, and he can't understand why anybody would only go in three days a week, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday, whatever, he just, he loves it. But, you know, it's not, you can't say that for everybody. That's very true. I feel like we are running out of time, unfortunately, but we definitely answered many questions and a lot from Tim. I have last few questions, Tim, that we ask everyone who comes on our lovely podcast.

1:12:22My question is quite philosophical to you. If you could change one thing in the world, what would it be?

1:12:30Tim Greenhalgh:Oh my goodness. I don't know. I don't know. That's such a difficult question because I've got loads of ideas. I think I would make every art institution free. Every cultural and art institution free. Because I think that, I think it's a responsible, It's the responsibility of every government to encourage culture to be accessible to all, it would be my view. I love this answer. This is beautiful. And yes, to more art and culture and creativity in everyone's life at every age and every place in the world. I do believe that would change so much in the way we see the world, the way we connect with the world, the way we connect with each other.

1:13:15So this is brilliant. And my last question is about the next guest. Who team do you think we should have as the next guest? Any recommendations from everything you see in the world? How can we destroy ordinary? Who should we invite as our next guest?

1:13:29Tim Greenhalgh:You should invite the current chief architect who is doing the last touches to the Sagrada Familia in Barcelona. Somebody who's had to pick up all the destroyed sketches and drawings and models to try and recreate Antonio Gaudi's vision for that amazing, it is the most incredible thing I have ever seen. It is, but also the process using 3D technology, using 3D printers, using the blending of old techniques with new techniques. I just think that the architect, what they are doing is out of this world. I've never seen anything like it in my life. Wow, that's a beautiful way to finish our conversation.

1:14:16It's something that has been here for decades and still is in process for all of us. Another six years, I think.

1:14:24Tim Greenhalgh:Another six years. And I think that is a great metaphor for creativity and ideas and life. And more of that we need for all of us to get inspired. So thank you, Tim, for sharing this time with us and going on all sorts of wild conversations about leadership and business and the future of creative industry and being so honest and raw about your experiences and what you see in the world. it is such a pleasure always to have you and hear your thinking and how you destroy ordinary every single day not just through the creative work that you do but also how you inspire and educate the next generation of creative designers the next generation of chief creative officers and obviously we're very grateful to have you as our faculty member at future lands and academy and our lovely executive leaders they actually have a chance to meet in person and i feel like this is probably the, I think, the biggest luck in anyone's life to meet someone like you and learn from you directly.

1:15:27So thank you for being part of our community. And thanks everyone for joining. It has been a pleasure hearing your questions, concerns, and inspiration and ideas. And please feel free to share anything that you found today, inspiring, provocative, you disagreed with, share these insights with the world. We always love hearing what you find the most interesting and what more we should put in this podcast. This really helps us to make it better and make sure that we drive relevant conversations that are helpful for all of you, but also driving the community, the creative community forward. Any last words, Tim?

1:16:05Anything else you want to leave everyone with?

1:16:08Tim Greenhalgh:No, just stay curious. Always the same. Stay curious, destroy ordinary. stay curious and destroy ordinary thanks everyone for joining thank you team and until next time bye