Why self-limiting beliefs about leadership are the hidden barrier for most design leaders | Julia Whitney, Executive Coach

35:09So some of those are broader societal trends and not necessarily age-related. So that brings me to the question that I want to probe a bit more on. What is the actual behavior or the actual habit or the actual skill or lack of skill or whatever that you're seeing that you are wondering? And maybe this is too pointed of a question you can't answer, so please feel free to defer, but yeah, that you're wondering about that is a such a great follow-up question because i agree with you i think that certain things that we see and attribute to maybe younger generation is just big societal shift like yes the expectations from work changed and they changed for every single generation not just for younger crowd but i suppose we usually see new behaviors from uh the younger generation because they haven't seen how it's supposed to be done.

36:06So therefore, they would follow their intuition and what makes sense right now in current economic situation in current state of the world. And that kind of trickles down to all the other generation, I suppose the most common one is flexible, working, questionable, again, we'll dive into whether we should be fully remote, flexible, hybrid, or fully in the office, never ending conversation. But in general, the idea that we should be flexible, we should be open to being flexible. That wasn't an idea, let's say, 10 years ago. Yeah, due to technology and other factors, but in general, the expectations wasn't there.

36:44Now with obviously COVID, but also younger generation in general expecting it, this expectation has opened up conversations for every single person. And it turns out, yes, in certain situations, certain scenarios it's so much better for people have flexibility when you have family when you have other things that it allows you actually to be more productive and do more work and and be happier with the work you're doing and the real life you're living if you have that extra flexibility but maybe we don't need to swing all the way and say we're just fully remote and we don't see each other again there are pros and cons in each but in general the younger generation opened the conversation that wasn't on the table yet because we were too stuck in our own ways of working and obviously COVID just made it much faster and much more obvious.

37:34So I suppose what I am observing as a conversation that is happening which I wonder will it trickle down to all of us or it will stay within kind of this new crowd is one term that I think was introduced as multi-hyphenate careers which is about or slashers I think there are different terms for that basically not going for one not just job but in general one profession you might be a musician and the artist usually I would say within creative field but I'm seeing that now even more within much more radical who feels like lawyers and investing bankers who actually on the side are musicians and artists and creators so not picking one career but picking multiple things that you're doing and it's not necessarily the one is side to another you're equally passionate about both of them or three of them and you spread your time across them and therefore their jobs and teams and and leaders should allow for those people to come into the workforce because they will never be five days a week there will be two days a week there will be one day a week and they will be equally as committed and productive and actually potentially career-driven within your company it's not a side gig for them while they're waiting for something better it is a very much committed place where they spend just 30 percent of their time compared to 100 of their time so i wonder if you've seen anything around that and whether, as I said, it is a broader trend that we all will follow or it's just a glitch and it will die down and we will go back to one career.

39:24Yeah, I certainly can't read the future on this one. I will just say my only evidence is anecdotal and I have zero clients currently who are experiencing this. So, you know, either in in terms of themselves or, or the people who, who they lead. So, I mean, that isn't to say that flexible working isn't a real thing, you know, a real present. And I think important because it's, for me, it feels, I mean, now I'm getting into my own personal beliefs, but it feels like a really, a prerequisite for making sure that there is gender equality in the workforce. So flexible working yes i've not come across the you know this what you're talking about flashers yet not yet i mean probably next week i will now that you brought it up but you know well it is it is constantly developing trend but speaking of remote versus in person that's another hot topic of the conversation that i think we go in circles throughout the past seven years whether we should all come to the office there is a new wave of five days in office at least in the uk Okay.

40:36Many companies, again, going for five days. And I see beauty in both. I think flexibility is great. I personally love being in the office and I love when other people in the office. actually I just had a conversation with again a friend of mine who is currently looking for new roles and for him it is a red flag when he sees a job post that says all sorts of flexibility all sorts of remote because he says and he's a senior professional with 20 plus years of experience so he says for him that means when he wants to come to the office there no there will be no one there. And he wants to build relationships and have a culture and learn from others.

41:20So for him, he actually doesn't want to join a company that is too flexible and too encouraging people to be flexible. Have you had any conversations with leaders that come to you about what they are trying to do? Are they trying to bring everyone in? Are they trying to bring, give everyone flexibility, what are you hearing? Well, I'm hearing a bunch of different things, as are you. But there is one example that's very close to my heart because it's my husband. So he is an individual contributor. He's a staff designer. And he used to rail in the current company he's working and he used to, he went in railing against the remote working because he felt that there wasn't enough of a sense of we're a team, we're working together.

42:13We overhear each other's conversations. We can look over each other's shoulders. There's a sense of camaraderie and best work, you know? So those were the reasons why, but because everybody else was taking advantage of remote, he started working from home three days a week. And he found that he really liked that flexibility. And so lo and behold, last week, there was a management announcement that they are now at his level going to require them to come in. I think it's one extra day per two-week period. It's not even that big of a deal, but it was an adjustment for him. So I can't help but think about that example because he was sort of dyed in the wool against it and then realized some of the benefits of it, but still believes that there is a real place for teamwork.

43:00So there is so much variety and nuance in this conversation, depending on all sorts of things, including personality, you know. So I find that I love being in a space where there are other people. I thrive off of the energy that other people bring. But I know that some people actually can do the work very well and be very productive without that. So there's the individual piece of it. There's also the pieces of, you know, whether you as a leader of a team need your team to be having that kind of collaborative relationship on an ongoing in-person basis, or whether you actually need a bunch of individual contributors who are just getting their tasks done and they don't actually need to, you know, that face-to-face collaboration.

43:47I think there's a whole other, actually, sorry, So I guess your original question, I was going to move into multiple cultures, but I think your other question was about whether I'm seeing this, whether people are talking about this. And yes, people are talking about this. And it definitely also depends on whether you're thinking about managing teams for their outcomes rather than their output or whether people are doing what they need. to do to do a good job, you know, all of those things, whether the economic model can, you know, it's just so nuanced, this conversation. I think it's hard to think of it in terms of one size fits all.

44:32100 % agree with you, Julia. And actually, to add to this thought, obviously, you teach in our executive program for design leaders, where we help design leaders to get to C-level. But another The colleague of yours, the faculty member of the executive program, he runs the consultancy called Spate Syntax. And essentially, they design spaces and offices. And the session he was actually doing during the program was about designing offices for different outcomes. And his point was exactly what you're saying. It's so nuanced. We say about work or remote, but we don't talk about what office are we going to.

45:11Is the office set up for the work that we need to do? It's one thing to make people come to the office. But as you said, first of all, personalities, whether people are extroverted, introverted, but most importantly, the culture. So are you, I don't know, an innovation consultancy or a place where you need to kind of collaborate, experiment, prototype, and does your space allow that? Are you more of a focus, safety, kind of concern type of place where you do need quiet time? You do need separators. You need your corners. You need to have private conversations. Like is or your work requires different types of spaces for different parts of your process and product.

45:57At the beginning stage, you need that type of space. At the middle time, you need to like a different type of space. And does your office work for that? because as we know, open plan was not a very good plan. So definitely there is more to experiment with how we design offices for this new environment that we want people to come in, including neurodiversity and how, again, neurodivergent leaders, neurodivergent team thrive from the noise cancellation to, again, just visual noise that can distract a lot of people from working. So I love that you brought the nuance. There is definitely more nuance to whether it is remote or in person.

46:41And we should hear why people want one or another. But also remember that I think people don't like change in general. Yes, I think that's true. Do you know the scarf model? Have you ever heard of the scarf model before? Please tell us. Okay. So this was developed by a doctor of neurology called Dr. David Rock. And it's S-C-A-R-F, scarf, like the thing that you wrap around your neck. And it basically is a model that talks about social drivers for humans that when they are threatened we feel the threat as keenly as if we were being physically threatened okay so those five things are status certainty autonomy autonomy, relatedness, and fairness.

47:46And so when you said people don't like change, you can often find in people's reaction to change that at least one of those five things is being threatened. And when it is, we're responding to it as if we're under a physical threat, you know, with the same degree of intensity, not as we know that we're not going to be physically hurt by it. But nonetheless, the feelings are very strong. So anyway, for what it's worth, that's a real tangent, a category. And I just thought I'd bring it up because when it comes to change and being a leader of change, it's really handy to keep it in mind. Yeah, I love that you brought this, Carl F.

48:24I think it's, yeah, kind of understanding what's underneath the rejection and the initial reaction that people might have. it's always a good way to actually try to solve the situation. Let's talk about multicultural teams, another topic that we all face because we all work in global teams, whether we are physically in one location. I think we now have the best time for creativity for that matter because we can definitely access to talent across the world and that's where the best ideas come from when all of us come together. but unfortunately as we know to actually get the most out of multicultural people actually need to understand other cultures and figure out how we can all work together just bringing lots of different people together does not equal good work we all need to figure out how we communicate how do we align how what do we do so I suppose what is your reflection or what have you seen around multicultural teams that design leaders might find helpful oh yeah so you will know because it's one of the things that i do with you in the executive design leader program that's one of the one of the pieces that i i do with your with your lovely design leaders is about leading multicultural teams i'm a massive fan i actually i'm going to hold it up i have it here is that I'll write a cat to Rita of the culture map by Aaron Myers or Meyer.

50:02Oh, do you have it up there? It's yellow. It's on brand. Yeah, it is very on brand. It might be in a different show, but yes, one of my favorite books as well. It's so great. It is so great. So I would say if you were leading a multi multicultural team with people from different, like read that book, read that book, there's great tools on Aaron Meyer's website that support the work you can run workshops with your own team to have a very open conversation about and really one of the main things I was about I didn't finish that sentence an open conversation about cultural differences and how they might be impacting the work that you're trying to do together and then I was going to say and really starting with yourself right because the real thing about understanding different cultures is understanding that you are bringing a set of expectations that come from the cultures that you grew up in.

50:59And you're carrying that around like a filter that you're looking at everything in the world through, or every other interaction with your colleagues through, and you're judging them based on your own set of expectations. And how is that fair, right? So yes, some people really object to this idea about learning about cultural differences because it's like, well, surely individual differences, you know, are way more important than cultural differences. They're both important. I'm just here to say they are both important because otherwise you, you know, you really may mistakenly judge people negatively is what it boils down to.

51:39So I would say, read this book. I was going to give an example back to my guy who got rejected for promotion the first time around. It turns out that cultural differences played a role in him being able to get promoted the second time around. So this is how it played out. So he is from India originally. In fact, he started working with his current company when he was still living in India. And then the company moved him over to the UK. And the culture is very much a UK culture in the company. And in India, or rather I should say, the culture in India is relative to the UK, more hierarchical, and also decisions are more likely to be top down relative to the UK.

52:38So when he was at the point where he was like, well, how am I going to, Do you remember we were talking about, you know, how am I going to recruit more sponsors, you know, and then we talked about empathizing with that person and then proactively driving, like initiating and proactively driving a project that that person was going to benefit from. Now, with his own cultural, his own set of cultural assumptions, he would never have proactively done that because that was not what you're supposed to do. You wait until somebody further up the chain invites you to do such a thing. You let the decision be made top down rather than in an egalitarian way.

53:25So once he realized that, he was able to see that he actually could flex his own behaviors in a way that might benefit him in a corporate culture that was very much determined or a company culture that was very much determined by the UK culture. So that's an individual example. I wanted to say something also about remote working and multicultural. So I think if that's all right, do we have time? I know we're over time. So, okay. So just to say that I think it's particularly, especially communication. So there's this concept and I'm going to put it up again, because I think somebody in the chat asked for the name of it.

54:12You can take a screenshot. There's, she has something like seven or eight. I, of course, I can't remember the number right off the top of my head of these facets that you can use, of these aspects of culture, of a country culture that you can think about. And one of them is communication. So on one end of the spectrum for communication are high context cultures, and on the other are low context cultures. So an example of a high context culture is one in which, well, is Japan. It's the most high context culture, I believe, in the world. And what that means is, you know, Japan, due to its history, was cut off from the entire rest of the world for hundreds of years.

55:02There is a lot of shared cultural assumptions, so much so that some things don't even need to be stated. They are implied. It works its way into the grammar of Japanese. It works its way into Japanese grammar, even. You can change a syllable and the meaning that is implied changes. So that's a culture that has so much context that it's quite different to the culture that I'm from, America, for example, which I believe is the lowest context culture. And that is, again, from its history, all these different people from all these different cultures coming together to try to work out what America meant and would become, tried to work together, etc.

55:52So zero context, or not zero context, but very little context. And so people had to be super explicit in order to understand each other. So you can imagine, take that really high degree of assumption and inference and, you know, you can just imply something and it's understood to a, you have to write everything down. You have to be crystal clear. You have to repeat the messages several times. It's really on you to make sure that you're clear to others. It's not on them. And think about that in a remote environment, right? Where you're communicating by, you know, by Zoom, by video conference, where you don't have face-to-face time.

56:34So, you know, where you're doing a lot in writing, for example, and typing and that kind of thing. So those from a low context culture like myself, you know, we run the risk of over explaining in our writing and sounding to others receiving it as being patronizing or condescending, right? And for those from a higher context culture, they run the risk of not being seen because they're reading the implications and everything and maybe not responding. And so there are some real issues that the cultural differences that come out, that are heightened. Another thing is some cultures and on one of her other spectra, one of Erin Meyer's other spectra, some cultures are very much about building trust through relationships, through building relationships.

57:25Some cultures are very much about building trust through the task. So getting the tasks done together. So imagine, you know, a team made up of people from both of those orientations, you know, those who are really wanting relationships in order to build trust. if let's say the boss is from a culture that really builds trust through through tasks getting tasks done together that boss may not see the need to spend time informal time building relationships in you know video conferences or or a slack channel or what have you so anyway two examples I've taken too much time on that I'll stop there I think it's a great examples and I remember I I think the part of that story about Japan was also that a typical thing to do for an American.

58:17And I would say in the UK, it also exists after a meeting is done to summarize what we discussed in the meeting. So the next steps, as we discussed, will be this, this, this and that. I do it all the time because I always feel like something can be misunderstood. Someone will forget something. We discussed something. let's repeat what we've discussed which in Japanese culture as you said will be seen as a rude thing because you kind of implying that we're all very stupid that we didn't hear it the first time you need to repeat to us as kind of little kids so again all of us have good intentions but sometimes can come across in a different way than we intend as well as people who communicate to us can come across not with the intention that they had in mind.

59:03So it's a good thing to have in mind and just be more open-minded. And have the communication with your team about it. You know, that's at the end of the day. And that is one where being more explicit in a multicultural environment is recommended. Erin Meyer would recommend it as well. I would love to finish with a few questions that, again, have been submitted. and I was personally curious about, about conflict, a topic that you cannot avoid in any good team, and especially creative team. Part of innovation, part of ideation is always having different points of view and potentially stumbling upon conflict.

59:46But then there are other types of conflicts where it potentially is a very difficult stakeholder or business leader you're dealing with and you feel like you're stuck, that you're banging your head against the wall and you really can't get through, what would you recommend someone? Are there any techniques? Are there any frameworks to work with when potentially you feel like your boss is difficult or your stakeholder you work with, you don't get along? What do you do then? Oh, that's such a good question. So I could talk about this for hours, but let me actually start with an example from my own experience at the BBC.

1:00:33So I had a peer from a different department who I found exceptionally difficult to work with. He was very aggressive, I would say. And his boss had told him that he was my boss, when actually he wasn't. So there was a lot of behavior that was very directive in a very unhealthful way. And I had a coach at the time. I benefited from coaching tremendously in dealing with this person. And at some point, my coach and I realized that if I just repeatedly stated what I needed from the situation and didn't let him cow me, didn't react to his aggression, that I can make some headway. So I've later discovered that this is called the broken record technique.

1:01:31So basically, yeah, just literally saying what I need in this situation is X and then repeating it over and over again. I hear what you're saying, but what I need in the situation is X. Yes. Yes. You've said that. You've said that. I've heard it. Yep. Yep. What I need from the situation is X, you know? So that actually worked wonders. It helped me keep my cool. It helped me, you know, draw a line. I did have to do the prep work ahead of time to figure out where my line was and what I did need from a situation sometimes. But it got me through some months of really, really hard going with this particular person.

1:02:14So that's an example from that standpoint. Back to your question around team conflict. I can give you one tip. I have all sorts of tips, but it's going to take too long. So I'll just give you one. So often you can try to identify, there are typically four different types of conflict that come up in the workplace. So one is goal conflict, where you're not working on the same definition of what what you're aiming toward. One is role conflict, where it's not clear who gets to decide or what role you're each playing. Process conflict is another one, where they're another typical one. So that's where your ideas about how to get from where you are now to the goal differ.

1:03:03And then finally personal conflict and so these four are useful to think of as a frame because if you can identify whether it's goal role or process then you can address it as those before it becomes personal conflict before it festers and becomes personal conflict so if you can say to the person that you're in conflict with i feel like we've got a difference a different understanding of what the goal is here. Let's try to clear it up. Or I feel like we both, we know what the goal is, but we have different ways of getting to the goal. I think this is, I think process is where we're, we're coming, you know, we're coming undone here.

1:03:43What can we do to sort it out together? So yeah, that's one thing that I would say. And then I would also say, actually, there's another model I want to say. So this comes from Patrick Lencioni and he talks about artificial harmony being on one end of a conflict spectrum for a team. And on the other end is obnoxious aggression Right. But he says that artificial harmony is bad, too. And what you want to do is you want to move across the spectrum so that you're right before flipping over to the other side that heads toward obnoxious aggression. So because that's where the goods are. So you do need conflict, especially in an innovation and creative space.

1:04:20And then it can be quite healthy as long as you stop short of personal insults. But, you know, if you're really passionate about the ideas, I call it or he calls it productive ideological conflict. All right. Now I'll start. Great models. And I am so happy that you mentioned the model about goal and process. And it's funny how we usually jump to personal as the first reason for conflict. I think it's very natural for humans to assume that everything that we disagree on must be coming from the personal perspective. It's just we as humans have very, very different ways of seeing the world, while most of the time it is the first three.

1:04:57Actually, it reminds me of, it's not a model, it's actually a piece of advice. Michael Wolff, the wonderful founder of Wolff Orleans, who is a design legend of his own. He taught me ages ago when we worked together that when clients does not like your design, you present it. obviously we worked in a world of branding. So you present something to the client. And if the client doesn't like it, first, you need to understand, do they not like a small detail? It's a color. They just cannot articulate. They just really don't like red and you present everything red and it just turns them off and they can't see beyond the red.

1:05:38Like that's it. Is it the small detail? Is it the big idea? You misunderstood the brief. There was some communication at the beginning that somehow was misaligned you presented something completely different than what they wanted in this situation so you need to go back I think to to your point of process and goal it's like what what are we trying to do here we've misunderstood each other let us go back to the drawing board and and reconfigure it and the third is are they and I'll rephrase a bad person did he use a more colorful phrase definitely more colorful but But whether it's even worth your time.

1:06:18So if you identify that this person is not worth arguing, going back and forth, and his advice would obviously usually identify that before you get into any projects, you don't get stuck in this situation. But if at that point you figure out, you know what, no matter what I change, no matter how much we go back and forth, this is not going to work, then unfortunately that's time for both of you to go separate ways. Yeah, right. Very similar way. Like, yes, there might be a personal conflict there, but potentially could be the first two. And you need to separate which one it is. You said goal and process, whether it is a detail or a debrief.

1:07:00So, yeah. Yeah. Brilliant. I love that. I love hearing that. In your experience working at a broadcaster, what are your thoughts of centralizing design across an organization? For example, graphic design for broadcast in the same department as UX and UI for streaming products and apps. If you tried this, how did you approach changing mindsets to group design together as a whole, as maybe more typical in a tech company? New to organization and trying to raise designs profile within the broadcaster. Basically, decentralized or more design as a function of the company. what what are your thoughts on that how do you shift that's so interesting so I mean my experience at the BBC leading design teams then ultimately leading the whole department I had that experience while the organization was shifting models so we started off with decentralized design teams because it's a broadcast organization the decentralization was based on at the time they were called petals there was a beautiful diagram where you know there was like a in the shape of a flower and each of the petals was one of the content areas so news would be a petal and sport would be a petal and like children's content would be a petal etc and so there were design teams in each of those areas and it was a nightmare to do anything that was sort of like across the hole which of course was the first job I had at the BBC to be leading the department.

1:08:35It wasn't a department, it was more of a team at that point that was doing stuff that was meant to go across the hole. At some point, in fact, around the same time that I took over the leadership of the entire department, we centralized. So in a way, it was more of a hybrid model though, to be fair, because we still attached heads of design to the different, they were no longer called pedals, but you know same idea and but we had teams that rotated through and in large part that was because we needed to do some things that were that were really cross-cutting so we needed to do a better job of creating design patterns that were going to not reinvent the wheel for every iteration of the same video player for example so and that structure helped us do it so i suppose the question is overall is how to raise a profile of a design as a department and a function in an organization that potentially is quite separated at the moment.

1:09:33Oh, I see. I see. In a media organization where it's quite separate. That's so interesting. Yeah. I mean, this is one of these where I would love to have a longer conversation with the individual who asked that question so that I could do a back and forth of answering, you know, of asking questions and hearing. Claire, would you like to step in and tell us more about your particular challenge so we can understand where it's coming from hello sorry I was trying to find a meeting room here I'm in the broadcaster as we speak it's hard to find you and so yeah it was basically a question around and I come from tech and I'm a new new to the company or new to the organization only about a year and so there is a separation between graphic design and all the other production design all those other teams and then the UX UI so everyone who works on the streaming apps the new audio sorry the new sort of mobile apps as well and in my previous experience it would be quite a centralized uh function design um but here I noticed like it's exactly as you kind of mentioned Julia petals in a way that and so the graphic design would be built that way and I'm I would my vision, I guess, is to bring everyone together.

1:10:52But that's not typical here. And so I'm kind of looking to do that. Good for you. I have to convince people about different ways of working. And I just wondered if you might have brought those two functions together. There's inside, I'm dealing with those conversations of should they be together? Are they actually very different um UX UI and graphic which I know the different disciplines but yeah yeah and this is where um so so first off I just want to say good for you for the aspiration I think that's fantastic and I so many questions I would love to ask you I won't I guess we don't have time but there are questions about the your particular situation in terms of who might you recruit for allies in this who else would it benefit, how you can make a case for it, who you need to make that case to, et cetera, et cetera, all of those questions.

1:11:47I would say it just from my own personal experience, my designers were visual designers as well. I had visual design as well as UX UI design, all in the same team, sometimes in the same person, although certain people had certain strengths toward one or the other. So that's the way we organized it at the time. We had it all there. That didn't necessarily mean that we were doing brand design, however. So that was where we were more influencing brand design rather than doing it ourselves. But anyway, if you wanted to contact me offline, I'd be happy to have a 15-minute conversation with you about this to see if I could help in any way.

1:12:28I love what you mentioned actually, Julia, about finding the sponsors and who benefits from any change in transformation. I think this is advice actually applicable to any situation within the company but also externally when again if you are an agency and you are pitching to any client they always say who is your kind of main sponsor who will benefit the most from what you're trying to do and what would be the measurable impact for them whether it is they literally will make their bonus this year if they buy from you, if you do what you want, or is it they will be seen as this leader of this AI transformation?

1:13:12It's very popular right now to be seen as the person who knows AI. And I like your example of thinking about that within the context of one company, again, who will benefit from this the most and kind of putting people together as your strategy for any transformation I think this is a great way to go I feel like we're running out of time unfortunately but I have a few last questions for you Julia which you probably know we ask all of our lovely guests who come on our podcast and the question to you is a bit of a philosophical question if you could change one thing in the world what would it be one thing in the world oh my goodness if i could change one thing in the world i didn't know that that was a question that you ask all your all of your lovely podcast interviewees the first thing that i want to say is human caused climate change so i'm very passionate about climate change i do a lot of work to try to do my part to toward mitigation and so I guess I would if I could change one thing in the world I would probably remove a ton of carbon from the atmosphere and keep us from yeah the devastating effects that are likely coming oh you didn't want me to be dark did you well it's a great one sitting in a very hot room today I definitely can appreciate that we should take care of our planet and make sure that we have many many thousands of years to enjoy what this planet is so i i love your answer and our last question is julia who should we bring next to our podcast who do you think is interesting to hear from uh for our lovely design leaders creative leaders who listen to our podcast maybe who you personally admire or wish to hear from yourself do you have a person in mind who maybe adds some different perspective or just a an interesting person to have a conversation with i think you've done some work with nicola ryan before she's fantastic so she would be great i think you may well i'm sure you've done i know of ben terrett maybe you know of matt jones so those are three people great selection brilliant design leaders and definitely we would love actually haven't had them on a podcast so maybe that's the sign for us to invite them but thank you so much julia for joining us for this conversation and thanks everyone for joining and listening to our chat and asking your wonderful questions any last words julia anything else you want to leave people with anywhere people should find you or any last thoughts you want to pass on so people can most reliably find me on linkedin but also I do have a website but anyway, just LinkedIn find me on LinkedIn, Julia Whitney and let's see any less, less, not so much just thank you so much Ekaterina, this has been a delightful conversation thank you for inviting me to be here and enjoy this lovely time together Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and for everyone who joined, thank you for listening until the end, if anything sparked any interesting thoughts in your mind, please share them.

1:16:38We love knowing what parts of the conversation were the most interesting. So please share your thoughts and tag future London Academy so we know what more we should bring or what conversations are interesting for our community. And if you're interested to learn more about Desire Leaders Program, you know where to find us, check our website and understand how you can become a chief creative officer and chief design officer and learn from wonderful faculty which Julie is part of thanks everyone again enjoy the rest of this lovely day and evening whatever time it is for you when you're listening this and until next time bye