543 - 3 Shifts to Make if You Feel Off Creatively

0:00Do you ever wish you could just step away from all the noise? Stories from The Village of Nothing Much Takes You there. Each episode invites you into a cozy, soothing village where life moves gently. From the inn on the lake to the downtown bookshop, from the farmer's market to a cabin in the woods, you'll hear warm, family-friendly stories designed to help you slow down, breathe easier, and feel at home. It's a bit like a grown-up version of Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood. gentle, thoughtful, and full of everyday magic. From the creator of the internationally beloved podcast, Nothing Much Happens, this series expands the village into a rich, ongoing world.

0:45It's not about falling asleep. It's more about comfort, calm, and the joy of a good story. If you're new, try episode 84, All Animal Edition. It's a delightful introduction to the village's gentle pace and whimsy. You can listen to stories from the village of Nothing Much wherever you get your podcasts. Do things feel a bit off in your creative practice at the moment? I mean, beyond just like the state of things or the general stuff you're worried about, does your creativity feel off, imbalanced, off kilter, if you will? I have a friend, illustrator Fabiola Lara. She says, I hear her say this every once in a while, like, uh-oh, hate everything I've ever made again.

1:32And I feel like that is very relatable. That happens to me sometimes. I have another friend who is a rapper named Andy Mineo, and he's got a song called Lost and a song called Clarity. One of those starts with a little bit where he says, you ever feel lost? And that's really just part of the creative journey. That's just part of the journey. So true. That offness. It is part of the hills and valleys and peaks and lows that is the creative process. But if you're in that zone, if you're not careful, you're going to stay in that zone. If you don't realize like you do have to counterbalance that thing and also understand the thing you need to counterbalance, you could get stuck there.

2:20And I have been in those ruts for too long at different points in my own creative journey. but learning to listen to oh things feel off don't just bury that don't just hide figure out the counterbalance i need to make and then take some action when i've done that it's led to some of my favorite things i've ever done there are times where i was like i have gotten too analog i need to learn how to draw digitally i got too digital now i learned need to learn how to paint and my all my picture books ended up becoming really painterly because of that i'm so happy that I listened to that voice that said, things feel a bit off.

2:57And so in this episode, we're gonna do a little self audit through a few things, through a few tight ropes that you need to stay in balance. And you can go through and be like, are any of these places where things are off? And then you can do our call to adventure. It's called counterbalance. It will help you put things back into a sweet spot. if you will. And you will with our call to adventure that will be at the end of the episode. First, we're gonna go through the three tight ropes that artists have to walk, the tension that they have to hold. Let's go. On the creative journey, it's easy to get lost, but don't worry, you'll lift off.

3:44Sometimes you just need a creative pep talk.

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6:40Creativity is innovation. Whatever. You've heard it before. I've probably said plenty of those things in this very show. But I think the problem with trying to define creativity is that it's not one thing. It is lots of different things. In fact, I would say it's all the things that your brain can do in a kind of symphony, playing their parts at the right time. I like to think of great creative work as whole brain creating. And so it is problem solving. You know, this thing that's very like solving a puzzle and getting every piece in the right place, but it's also exploring and breaking things and chaos.

7:17And that's the opposite of solving a puzzle. But it's both of those things. And one of the things that makes a creative practice so challenging, so interesting, but also so challenging is that you have to master all these different pieces. It feels kind of like creativity is sports for the brain and you have to know how to play all the positions and how to get into those very different roles at different times throughout your creative process. And so this episode, we're going to talk about a few different tightropes that we have to walk that aren't this or that, but balancing two very, very different energies, sometimes seemingly contradictory injuries, energies, and you might injure yourself on the way.

8:12And the best way I've heard this described comes from two folks that I talk about quite frequently, Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell. Carl Jung talked a lot about the tension of the opposites, masculinity, femininity, the conscious and the unconscious, the self and the ego, like how, like being a great person, being a good person, walking your path is about how to hold these tensions, these opposites in a, in a, in a nice tension and a tension that creates chaos, you know, this place between chaos and order that's really vibrant and alive and interesting and life-giving. and then joseph campbell talked about it like master of both worlds if you don't know joseph campbell was the guy who coined this idea of the hero's journey and wrote a whole book about it and all kinds of other things about it and one of the pieces that i find really compelling about this and how it relates to being a creative person is this idea of master of both worlds so really minor uh simple oversimplification of the hero's journey is you start in the ordinary world you go into the extraordinary world but it's a circle so you come all the way back you return to the ordinary but it's the same world but you're a different person you're a different because you're taking something from the extraordinary so you but you can't come back to ordinary and be carrying all of the same energy that you had when you were in the extraordinary fighting dragons and leaving things behind and, you know, in mission mode and not in present mode.

9:55Like you have to be able to carry both of those things and show up in the right way, depending on what the day demands of you. And the same is true for your art. I almost feel like the hero journey, if you think about it on a psychological lens, it It feels a bit like as a creator, you're leaving the ordinary of everyday rational logic, maybe even left hemisphere dominant type thinking. And then you're going into the extraordinary, the symbolic realm of the right hemisphere, the weird imaginary world where anything's possible. And then you're coming back to the surface and trying to make sense of it and trying to fix it and trying to edit it.

10:40But there are things you can't do at the same time. Now, all that stuff might be lost on you. That's fine. It's really just like an impression to get us to set the stage of we're going to be trying to do, we're going to try to do very, very different things, not at the same time, but in the same creative practice at different times. And externalizing that, realizing that's the case means that you can call those different parts of yourself to action when you need them. And one of the things that gets really dicey when we start trying to talk about making work is that we're usually only focusing on one side of that spectrum, one side of that pendulum.

11:28And so I wanted to kind of course correct that with an episode and be like, hey, here's two sides of the pendulum. Here's two sides of the coin. Let's talk about both so that you can recognize when you need to pull at which one. Let's do it.

11:53Okay, so this can act, all these categories can act as a self-checkup, a diagnosis to be like, am I balancing these two things in these different really key parts of creative practice? The first one is standing out versus fitting in. Okay, this one is, I feel severely misunderstood. I feel like generally in the culture, we feel like being an artist is all about being different. It's all about standing out. However, when you're in creative practice, when you're really, if you're a creative professional or you're participating in a particular scene, I would say you probably are more likely to struggle with trying to fit in too much.

12:45you know if you're a typographic dude a type of typographer um you might be like look comic sans totally lame we only like these five fonts if you're cool if you're an illustrator it might be like we cool people don't draw noses i don't know i feel like i was in that club for a while um dumb things like that but if you're a musician you're like saxophones never you're only losers put sax breakdown at the bridge, whatever it is. I strongly think that fitting in is a key part of the creative journey, making sure you can hang, making sure you are part of a scene. You are part of a group. Like almost every pioneer started in some kind of new wave of art.

13:37And it's a place where ideas are exchanged and you get so much from your peers and those collaborations. It's so, so essential. And in order to hang in those groups, you got to have a similar taste profile. You have to agree to a degree on certain elements of what the movement is about. But if you stick within that, if you just think I'm never using comic sans, no matter what, because my people say no to that. If you do that, you will never break out. You will always be part of the crowd, you will never have your own point of view and your own perspective. And so it requires you to choose, pick and choose the things, the rules that you're going to break.

14:20And this can kind of look like a different tightrope that's very similar. We'll just keep it in this category, which is following the rules versus breaking them. A lot of creative people don't even like close their ears. La la la la. Don't even want to know the rules. Don't even tell me the rules. I'm scared of even hearing about the rules for all kinds of reasons. I think for a long time, I didn't want to know the rules of storytelling or anatomy or anything like that because I just didn't believe I was capable of learning those things. So some of it was just like self-esteem kind of thing. But a lot of artists think I don't even want to know all those things.

14:59I don't want to get in my head about it. I don't want to make formulaic work. Whereas it's so powerful. there's not really any downside to having a loose grasp on all of the wealth of knowledge that came before you i often think about del the funky homo sapien and when i say i often think about i think about him a lot no no kidding like i like think where is he now why don't people why doesn't he get on these lists of greatest rappers of all time why people don't know about him all that i just think he's great um i'm a pretty big fan love deltron 30 30 um love his gorilla song he's he's just such an interesting character um if he was on clint eastwood that gorilla song if you're not familiar with him he's the rapper in that you should check out deltron 30 30 it's the only concept album that i know of that i actually liked and felt like the concept brought something to it supposed to be an album in the year 30 30 and he's kind of like mega man but a rapper.

16:02Anyway, one thing I do think about with him a lot is that song Clint Eastwood, which put gorillas on the map. He made those verses right after reading this, how to write a hit song for dummies kind of book. And I feel like most artists tend to fall off on that side of the tightrope where they don't even want to know the rules. They don't even want to try to fit in because they think that's not what creativity is, man. And that's, I think, where we get it wrong, where it's not one thing. It's not this or that. It's not standing out or fitting in. It is a tension of those opposites. And so if you, you can look at your own practice and think, do I need to brush up on the rules?

16:45Do I need to learn them a little bit before I learn to break them? And also it can happen where if you get obsessed with story structure, if you get obsessed with this is how you do a hit song you can get stuck in this world where it's like it has to be less than three minutes to be a hit song and then you never do anything to break out you never listen to your intuition and taste and now when i'm writing story that's what i'm thinking a lot about i let the structure stuff guide the way when i'm building a podcast episode or telling a story on the show or making a picture book or whatever making a talk i'm thinking i'm usually using the structure stuff as a jumping off point but then when i notice like oh this kind of breaks the rules like you're not supposed to do this i have to tap into my intuition and be like yeah but is that my taste would i like that like a lot of my adhd tangential stuff i'm just letting it fly because my taste requires it not to be boring and samey so i like the unexpected little twist on things or addition or the maximalism i like all of that so that's that's the first one standing out and fitting in, creativity is both.

17:52And it's always both. That's why it's yes and in the creative world. That's why it's both and. It's never either or because we got to have both of those energies standing out and fitting in and just figuring out the balance of that for you. Number two, self versus audience. Now, I think it's worth saying that for a lot of these, we often think in binary. I think it's when we're more in the left hemisphere type of thinking of the brain and we're thinking, is it this or that on off that sort of thing? Whereas a lot of creative stuff is more like the universe. It's more like seasons. It's more like this and that, then this, then that there's a pulse, there's a pendulum, there's a seasonal seasonality to it.

18:40And so I think it's worth saying that for a lot of these, it's a little bit about understanding when in the process to do them. And for the previous one, standing out, fitting in, I think you probably need to fit in and then stand out. Or you start out being standing out because you're totally unique as a person. Then you learn to fit in and then you stand out. For this one, self versus audience, I really like what Rick Rubin says where he says the audience comes last. and what i've said this a couple times in the show so forgive me if you're a long time listener uh i think that that's a so brilliant because it's not saying the audience is out of the equation never think about the audience it's saying think about the audience last that's part of how this process is going to unfold and i can think about it like a stand-up comedian a stand-up comedian doesn't go on stage and say what do you guys want me to talk about uh i mean some people do but i think it's more poignant to be like, what do I think is funny?

19:37Take some notes, come up with some ideas, and then work it out in front of the audience and be like, either do you find this funny? But even more so, am I able to communicate what's funny about this if I really think it's funny? And for me, that's writing on stage. I think about this all the time. That's the primary way I recommend using the internet as a creative person, that I think I'm always working on something a little bit more, hopefully long standing perennial hope, even maybe a little bit timeless. I'm working my big final creative energy is going into books and classes and posters and that sort of thing.

20:18And the internet is where I write on stage. It's I'm going in the clubs, working out the material, and then I have my specials, which that's the stuff that I actually sell. This looks like the episode art of this podcast. So every week I do another piece of art and only about 12, literally no 12 into a calendar. That's the special, but I'm writing on stage. I'm trying them out every single week because I'm not a genius. I need to try. I need a bunch of errors. And it's so, and the internet's a great place to put that stuff because most people don't see what you post anyway. So no harm, no foul.

20:53And so for me, that's what this balance looks like. It looks like listening to your taste, watching your experience, pull from that stuff, and then find a place to test it out. One thing I've been thinking about on this tangent recently, this tear that I get on sometimes about writing on stage, is one of the things you want to do is road test the material. I've heard comedians talk about, you don't want to just make material that works in Brooklyn. You want it to work in LA. You want it to work all throughout the country if you want this thing to work. Now, it doesn't have to work for all people, but you want it to be versatile enough to appeal to a wider group of people.

21:33And so that requires you going to different clubs. I think the same is true on the internet. Like for me, I'm testing material on Instagram, YouTube, podcast, sub stack, all these different places. And you don't have to do that many, but I think it's an interesting way to think about like, okay, Instagram, maybe that's the coasts. Maybe Substack is the Midwest. It doesn't really break down like that. Maybe the YouTube, I'd say YouTube's more Midwest because it's a little bit more down to earth. But I think it's really important to think about that. Think about how are you getting your stuff out there?

22:11This is also a little bit into whether you sit on ideas and keep them to yourself and keep them completely private until you launch because you don't want any influence from anybody else or whether you're giving all of your best stuff away before you even actually do the work. One of the ways that I try to strike the balance of this is I try not to talk about or post about anything that I think I'm going to do. I'm not going to talk about, I'm going to write a book unless I've already started writing that book. I'm not going to talk about, this is, I think I'm going to do this picture book because I've heard the brain science says around goals that if you talk about what you're going to do, you get the dopamine hit like you already did it.

23:00And then you don't feel the impulse to actually follow through. So for me, one way of balancing this is creating something, sharing a little piece of that, creating something, share a little piece of that, letting that inform you. I really like, as I've done school visits, letting that, those presentations inform how we do the next book a little bit, realizing like, oh, they really respond to this character or they really respond to that joke. I want to play that up. I want that to be more like that when we do the next book and I do the next reading. So this is the second balance, self versus audience.

23:37To me, I just don't know if we are the type of animals that can be completely selfish, unless you are pathological, a sociopath. But if you aren't, if you are, you're probably not listening to this podcast, honestly. Um, but, but, uh, if you, if you are human, you're a social animal and you, a lot of your drive to do anything is about connection to yourself and to others. And so to me, it's never about art is always about pleasing yourself or art is all about knowing your audience. It's not either of those things. It's not this or that it's this and that, and having a sense of that, uh, balance is really key.

24:25and so how do you have do you have a practice like morning pages do you have a practice where you are getting in touch with yourself you are continually having some space where you're checking in and being like what am i thinking about i uh my reflection on dreams is a bit of this my writing for this podcast is a lot that is a lot like what is hot topic in my heart right now where where are the people with all the piercings in my heart you know hot topic what's the hot topic what are the what's the thing i'm thinking about and then uh putting it out every week and and dripping it out and trying it out and as i'm saying it as i'm thinking about it i think about this a lot where cal newport the writer says if you're a writer you don't really have to worry so much about capturing all of your ideas the ideas that are usually worth pursuing are the ones that are deeply persistent.

25:19You never quit thinking about them. And for me, doing this podcast is part of that. Like seeing, I'm talking about it and thinking, is that something I'm really passionate about? Maybe that perspective shift is the hint of a story that I want to tell in a picture book or in a talk. So do you have a practice where you are touching base with yourself, touching base with the audience in a sort of somewhat balanced manner?

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26:45My youngest has been really into cooking lately, so I'm excited to have all the stuff together, easily accessible and ready to cook with her. I think she's going to really love it. With HelloFresh, choose from more than 100 recipes every week, including cuisines from around the world and meals that help you beat the winter blues. Go to HelloFresh.com slash PepTalk10FM to get 10 free meals, a free Zwilling knife, a$144.99 value knife on your third box. Offer valid while supplies last. Free meals applied as discount on first box. New subscribers only. Varies by plan. Last one, plot versus pants.

27:30One of my favorite topics. You know it. I never stopped thinking about it because I feel like this tightrope is a daily thing to touch base with in your creative practice. if you're not familiar with it it's a general idea from the writing community plotting versus pantsing are you a plotter are you a pantser plotters they're the people with the outline they know the end before they write the beginning and they work their way there that's that's one way of doing it pantsing flying by the seat of your pants you just start writing baby and it's the creative ouija board as john mayer would say where the the song wrote itself the paintbrush has a mind of its own, that sort of thing.

28:07So I personally think that everyone needs both. But depending on the type of creator you are, you have to figure out what is striking the right balance for you. And if you are overemphasizing one side, I would recommend you testing out the other side and not being set in your ways. I think it's not like you strike a balance once and your practice and your path and then you're set and you're golden you're always going to be a 10 plotter 90 pantser i don't think it works like that i think it's really really worthwhile to challenge yourself to explore go dominant on the other side project to project even what this looks like if you're not a writer it could look like if you're an illustrator it could be sometimes you want to go full on pants and you want to everybody pants now like Leslie Knope and you are just putting some paint on the page before you even know what you're making.

29:14You start doodling before you even know what you did and you just start moving, right? You don't decide what am I drawing? What am I doing? What am I trying to make? And you let it find its way. and if you're usually doing that i recommend pushing yourself for a few pieces of work to say i'm going to make the tightest sketch that anyone i i'm going to make this so unbelievably tight that no one's ever done this before where you are going to take like this is why i got into a habit of doing this for a long time where i would draw it i'd put it on a light box redraw it put it on a light box, redraw it, do it like 15 times before I have it exactly how I want it to be.

29:58I like that. I'm down for that. And when I was younger, I didn't do any of that. I didn't even have a light box. I was all about the instant mark. And so whichever one you are, I would just recommend trying the other. If you are a plotter, if you're a person who needs to know the plan, you want the control, it could be really scary to think I'm going to start writing this story and I have no idea what's gonna happen. For the longest time, all the way until probably 2015 in my life, I was always winging all kinds of talks. I would wing school presentations. I would wing talking to a group of students, whatever it was, I was always just gonna make it up on the spot because I felt like I'm good at that.