In short
The episode examines Haitians living in fear of systematic deportations in the Dominican Republic, especially in tourism hub Punta Cana. It describes President Luis Abinader’s reported target to expel 10,000 undocumented Haitians per week, with claims that raids occur at night and even at hospitals, where immigration officials are said to be present. Haitians describe being detained, having phones and money taken, and being sent back to Haiti—described as precarious and violent—sometimes after being held in the Heine detention centre without lawyer access. Notable examples include Derival, whose 16-year-old daughter was taken from a restaurant and held for days before deportation, and a 15-year-old minor detained despite protections. The episode also highlights Haitian-descended communities preserving Gaga music and the building of border walls and daily deportation convoys.
Guests
Santiago Molina, Dominican human-rights advocate; Derival, Haitian woman in the DR; Simon Rodriguez, local journalist; Linus, father seeking his detained son; Mirabel (Gaga Queen), community leader; Maria, Dominican of Haitian descent; Abraham, NGO consultant near the border.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOLife of Haitians in the Dominican Republic
1:51 to 4:54
Hear firsthand accounts from Haitians navigating life under threat of expulsion.
“we'll be travelling across the Dominican Republic, meeting Haitians caught between a rock and a hard place.”
Human Rights Struggles and Corruption
4:54 to 9:11
Learn about the human rights issues and corruption faced by Haitians.
“Many Haitians work in Punta Cana, the main tourist area in the east of the country, but few can afford to stay there.”
Consequences of Immigration Raids
9:11 to 12:51
Discover the harrowing experiences of families affected by immigration raids.
“Santiago is taking us to meet a woman who lives in a tiny, stiflingly hot two-room apartment.”
Inside the Heine Detention Centre
12:51 to 14:00
Get insights into the conditions and processes at the notorious Heine Detention Centre.
“The government claims it's only targeting illegal migrants and is respecting all human rights.”
Conditions at the Detention Centre
14:00 to 16:40
Learn about the harsh realities faced by detainees in the Dominican Republic.
“Yeah, one of the things about this detention centre, which is worse than a regular jail, is that people who are detained can't get access to a lawyer.”
The Community and Cultural Heritage
16:40 to 18:20
Discover the significance of gaga music and its cultural roots among Haitians.
“We've travelled two, two and a half hours north of the capital, Santo Domingo, to the area of Monte Plata in the countryside.”
Exploring Cultural Identity
18:20 to 22:50
Explore the complexities of identity among Haitians and Dominicans living in proximity.
“So she takes a leading role, coordinating the whole group.”
Border Enforcement and Deportation
22:50 to 27:20
Examine the current anti-immigration policies and their impact on Haitian migrants.
“taking a sack of something or other into Haiti.”
Reflections on Injustice
27:20 to 28:00
Understand the emotional toll of witnessing the struggles of deported migrants.
“who should be doing more to help Haitians.”
Navigating Change and Sharing Stories
28:30 to 29:05
Discussion on the significance of sharing stories in times of change and uncertainty.
“We are living through one of those hinge moments in history when all the old certainties crumble and a new world struggles to be born.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00As we can see in the headlines, migration, especially illegal migration, is top of the political agenda, with politicians often coming up with targets of how many people they want to expel. Well, the Dominican Republic, which is a top tourist destination in the Caribbean, has one of the most systematic expulsion regimes anywhere in the world. I went there with my colleague Bob Howard to see what's happening.
0:37Early morning yoga on the beach, on this soft sand with the waves lapping at the shore, before the sun gets too hot. Or perhaps you'd prefer some gentle meditation with soothing music. The Dominican Republic has become the number one tourist destination in the Caribbean, though many of the visitors barely leave the giant five-star resorts with their manicured lawns and welcoming swimming pools that skirt the coast of this island called Hispaniola. Many of the workers who built these places and look after the tourists' requirements are in fact Haitians, escaping the poverty, violence and instability that rains back home in Haiti, in the west of this island.
1:23But the Dominican government says they must go. Last year, the president announced an extraordinary target of expelling undocumented Haitians at the rate of 10 ,000 a week, arguing they're a security risk. Now, many Haitians here live in fear of being rounded up day and night and being sent back to an extremely precarious existence in the Western Hemisphere's poorest country. In this week's Crossing Continents, we'll be travelling across the Dominican Republic, meeting Haitians caught between a rock and a hard place.
2:04The beach resorts of Punta Cana are at the centre of the tourism industry here. In 2024, 11 million holidaymakers visited the Dominican Republic, the same number as the whole population of the country. Spanish is the official language, but it's not hard to find Haitian Creole being spoken around here, and many of the shops are run by Haitians. Hi, how are you? Oh, how are you? We've been brought into this shop which sells all kinds of goodies, t-shirt, dresses and booze on the shelves. It's owned by Desiree and one of his shop assistants is 24-year-old Gregory. How long have you been here? Like three years and a half.
2:46I'm from Haiti, like a hench. It's sited by Port-au-Prince, the capital of Haiti. I just terminated my classical school and university, everything, just come here for work. I just left Haiti because I can say Haiti, there's no life. It's not good, there's no work there, and they killed the president. I can say from Haiti to come here, it's not easy, but I'm just cool, I'm here. So you don't have the official papers to stay here in the Dominican Republic? I got no paper to leave here, and the president here never gives the Haitians paper, the legal paper. Haitians do everything here in this country.
3:21We do contractions, shops, with the tourists, because it's only the Haitians who speak other languages. They use us, but they don't want us. Have you personally seen raids by the immigration people? There's immigration for the Haitians here every day. I think today they came at 3 or 4 in the morning. 3 or 4 in the morning? Yeah, because Haitians know they're going to come. The Haitians go out earlier, and they know that they come earlier. So it's like cat and mouse. The Haitians try and leave early before the immigration people come, and then the immigration people come even earlier. Yeah, they come before.
3:58Every day they go to a different house. Today I got a friend. He said to me, immigration was here. They took three of my friends, but I'm just waiting for it because they're going to come in my house, but I'm just waiting for it. I'm still surviving though. So far they've not come to your house? They're going to take me and I'm going to go to Haiti. You think they will do that one day? When they take you, if you don't want to go, say, please leave me alone. They're going to hate you. They're going to strike you so hard and they can kill you. The prisoners will never say nothing because even the prisoners don't like Haitians.
4:28And then will you come back again? I prefer to die in my country. I will never come back here if the immigration takes me here, get me go back to Haiti. But do you think there are some Haitians who get sent back and then come back again? Every day. They take you here, get you go back to Haiti. The same people who take you here, take the money from you to come with you. It is a game. They're playing with us. So money is changing hands with the immigration people. Yeah. It is a business. corruption. Many Haitians work in Punta Cana, the main tourist area in the east of the country, but few can afford to stay there.
5:03Instead, they live in poor neighbourhoods in places like nearby Friusa. We're just a few kilometres from the big posh hotels and this is a world away as well. masses of little trucks and motorbikes, lots of little shops and salons, hairdressers, and our drivers saying that 80 % of the population here is Haitian. This place grew up because of all the construction workers who came to build those massive complexes for the tourists. You can see all this commerce is Haitian commerce. My name is Santiago Molina. For about 40 years, I'm fighting for the human rights of the people, especially for the Haitian people and now more because it's not easy you see that the president sent to Haiti a lady pregnant with a baby and sent to Haiti in one truck with bad condition what you're saying is that they are expelling even pregnant women or women with small babies they are sending them back to Haiti they sent to Haiti and some lady of them died Right now, Haiti is not in good condition right now.
6:18No, it's in a terrible condition, to be frank. So why are you saying to trade a woman to Haiti? That is very bad, man. And at the same time, many people with different kinds of problems, they are afraid to go to the hospital. Because they need to go to the hospital, but they don't dare go in case the immigration company gets them. No, immediately. In each hospital of the Dominican Republic, there are immigration offices there. Immediately someone Haitian goes there, the doctor calls, hey, we have one Haitian here. And the Haitian people don't want to go to the hospital. Many Haitian people prefer to die in the house and don't go to the hospital.
6:59Nobody knows exactly how many Haitians are here. A figure of half a million illegals is often quoted by the government. There are also people of Haitian descent. But activists like Santiago say even those born here, and with the correct paperwork, are being swept up. For some Dominicans, though, even this intense level of expulsions isn't enough. An extreme nationalist group marched through these very streets recently, demanding all Haitians be sent home. Santiago filmed it on his phone. So what I can see is hundreds of people wandering along with flags. Yeah, it's in the same road that we are right now, three or five months ago.
7:44That happened because a lot of Dominican people don't want a Haitian here. They're saying, get out. Get out, yeah. And so what did the Haitians do? The Haitians had to go to another place that day, close their business, close the door, and with the children had to go out because they tried to give a problem to the Haitian people here. and I should point out that Santiago himself is not Haitian. You are from Dominican Republic. Of course, I am Dominican. Many people think, oh, you are Haitian. No, I only fight for the human rights of the people and the Haitians are human. Some people in Dominican Republic think they are not human.
8:26Of course they are human and they need help. The system immigration, the company immigration, taking money of the Haitians. A little bribe. Yeah, they take the money of them. They take the cellular, they take everything of them. So they take their phones and they take their money. Yeah, it's business. Well, and then they come back. If you want to go to Dominican Republic, you have to give it 25 ,000 pesos, for example. So 25 ,000 pesos, that's about 400 US dollars. So if you have that money, you can pay and get yourself back into the country. Yeah. If you have a lot of money, you don't have problem.
9:02If you don't have money, you go to Haiti. And that situation has to change. We have to think they are people. A lot of Haitians live in constant fear that they or their loved ones could be picked up by the immigration authorities and sent back across the border to a country riven with gang violence, sexual assaults on women, as well as political and economic insecurity. Santiago is taking us to meet a woman who lives in a tiny, stiflingly hot two-room apartment. My name is Derival. I am 36 years old and I'm from Haiti. I am from Port-au-Prince. I have been here for five years in the Dominican Republic.
9:48Derival's daughter was taken recently in an immigration raid. The immigration people have sent her back to Haiti. And how old is she? She's 16 years old and she's been sent back to Haiti. How did that happen? I was out at work in a local restaurant and the immigration people came and broke down the door and took my daughter away. I didn't find out until three in the afternoon when immigration had already taken her to the centre in the capital. She spent four days there without being given anything to eat or drink or wash. She slept on the floor and only had a T-shirt on. She didn't even have any shorts on.
10:33That's all she was wearing when they took her away, just in her T-shirts. She managed to borrow a phone from an Athenian to call me and tell me what happened. Then they took her to the border. Will it be possible to get her back here? No, there is no hope of bringing her back because there is no hope of getting a visa. And if you wanted to do it illegally, by bribing people and getting across the border, it's super expensive. If she got here, it would be very difficult to leave. I don't sleep in these rooms where we are. I am worried about immigration people coming, So every night I go up to the hills to keep myself safe.
11:20Where do you stay in the mountains, in the hills? Life up in the hills is very difficult and dangerous. There are armed men who steal our phones, steal our stuff if they can. And it's especially difficult now when there is rain. Last night we had a really big downpour. But despite all that, I still have to go up there. There is no shelter in the mountains. I have to stand under trees, and sometimes I have to take the young children with me. Have you ever been caught by the immigration? Yes, the immigration took me from work. For two days, I was given no food. Then on the third day, I was taken to the frontier and left there.
12:13The second time when I was taken, they broke into the house. I gave them some money to leave me alone.
12:24I am very, very frightened of the immigration people. I've come across them now three times, and when I think about them, it gives me a headache. It makes me feel ill. My heart beats so fast, I think I might die of a heart attack. Derival's daughter was eventually picked up at the border by her uncle, who brought her some clothes. She's still in Haiti. Just to clarify, Dominican law says minors, breastfeeding women and the elderly should not be deported. The government claims it's only targeting illegal migrants and is respecting all human rights. Many of the people caught, like Derival's daughter, are taken hours away to a notorious processing centre outside the capital, Santo Domingo.
13:16Approaching the detention centre, it's become an industrial zone now, and along this road there are shacks where people seem to be living. And here's one of these infamous yellow school buses, ex-American school buses, which are used to bring the detainees to this place, Heine.
13:40We've come to these large grey gates with local journalist Simon Rodriguez, who's helping us with this story. So those are the gates of the famous Heiner Detention Centre. Yes, so people who are brought in, detained, they go through those gates. Also, if they're released, they'll come out from there. There are a few people hanging outside. Yeah, one of the things about this detention centre, which is worse than a regular jail, is that people who are detained can't get access to a lawyer. They won't let family members in either to see people who are detained. So in some sense it's worse than a regular jail.
14:23One of the problems is also all of the process is quite arbitrary and disorderly. So there are no clear statistics as to how many people are deported, how many people are detained. There's a lot of obscurity regarding statistics and processes. There are one, two, three, four, five people on this side of the road just sitting on the ground and there are four others over there. Some of them have brought little camping chairs and they're just all waiting for news of family members who may be inside.
14:58His child was detained on Tuesday, so he's here to find out if he has been deported or if he's still here. He's 15 years old. 15, so he's a minor. So in theory, he shouldn't be here at all. He says, well, this is a regular thing that happens as part of the normal migration work. And your name? Linus. How long have you been in the country here? I'm not... Oh, you speak English? Yeah, I have 25 years already here. 25 years here? Yeah. OK. What job do you do here? Construction. Construction? Yeah. OK. But do you have the papers? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I have. Does your son have the papers? Yeah, this son is living in Haiti.
15:44His son was visiting from Haiti and he was caught on Tuesday. Can we have a name of your son? John. John. John John. John John. Yeah. Have you been given any information about him in there? Not yet. Not yet? So they told him at some point they will give him information. He thinks it's probable that he's here if he hasn't been already deported. He doesn't actually know if his son is here? It's not certain. How long will you wait? It's not going to be here. It's going to be a spiral. We will wait as long as necessary. When he was taken, he did not have his cell phone, so there's no way to communicate with him now.
16:21There's a female guard that's appeared at the metal door there, and our friend Lenas is now talking to her. We're stepping inside. So Lenas has now been able to step inside, and the door has been shut.
16:40We've travelled two, two and a half hours north of the capital, Santo Domingo, to the area of Monte Plata in the countryside. We've come off the main road and we're now going very slowly along this bumpy dirt track. Haitians have been living in the Dominican Republic for generations. We're on our way to visit Abate, a settlement created for sugarcane cutters, where they've kept many Haitian traditions, including a love of spiritual music known as gaga.
17:18to encourage the music to flow. I'm being given a plastic cup of beer. Maria's our guide here, but first up, it's Gaga Queen Mirabel. So, Mirabel, tell me how important this music is to your community. This is very important. We enjoy it. We celebrate it in the Holy Week because it's part of our culture, our tradition, and we enjoy it. Who's your audience? For the public, for everyone who wants to enjoy it. For anyone who wants to enjoy it. Where does it come from, this music? It comes from Africa. It's an African tradition. With all the drums and the pipes and the singing, and I've seen videos of women dancing.
18:03Is that what you do? Yes. Yes. She dances. You're the queen of the dance. One of the queens. There are several queens. What's the role of a queen?
18:21So she takes a leading role, coordinating the whole group. When you're performing Gaga, what do you feel? I feel very happy because this is something I like a lot. So I believe the government prefers merengue music, which they think is much more Hispanic. Is there a comparison between the two types of music?
18:43They have in common that they have the drumming, drumming from African origin, but perhaps the gaga is more tropical as compared to merengue, which perhaps is softer. Because this is an afrodescendent tradition, the government doesn't like African traditions or black people. They don't like gaga for this reason. So does merengue also have African roots, do you think? Dominicana, Haitian, African. Haitian, Dominican, the girl comes from Africa. African. This particular bate, with its rickety-looking wooden and corrugated iron shacks, was originally set up for sugar cane workers in the 1940s. But there's no cane left here anymore.
19:31So what do people do for work today?
19:40Young people who have their documents usually work in construction in the capital, young men for example. Those who do not have documents usually stay in the community. Do you feel safe in this community from the immigration officials? There is concern. Even having your documents doesn't mean you will not get detained. because the main reason why people are detained is because of the skin colour. Have they tried to come here, the officials? They have been told that the migration was coming and that halfway they decided to turn back because the road was too bad. So that's a good thing you have a bad road.
20:23Yeah, yeah. It's a lot of bad. Maria, I know you were born here of Haitian parents, parents who came from Haiti. Do you feel in your heart that you're Haitian or do you feel you're Dominican? I feel Dominican, yet I also feel I have Haitian blood, so I also embrace my Haitian part. I am a Dominican of Haitian descent. There's been a long, turbulent history between Haiti and the Dominican Republic. In the early 1990s, thousands of Haitians and Dominicans of Haitian descent were pushed across the border, while tens of thousands of others fled to avoid forced deportation. Most notoriously, in 1937, historians estimate that between 9 ,000 and 20 ,000 Haitians were killed in the border area on the orders of the Dominican dictator Rafael Trujillo.
21:21Coming towards the border, as we've approached it, there have been more and more military checkpoints. We've just gone through another one, but they seem to be more interested and the vehicles going away from the border, checking those.
21:35And now we're approaching the commercial area of Comendador, which is very close to the border. So we're with Abraham. He's born and bred in this area. He's a consultant for a non-governmental organisation and he's taking us to the border with Haiti. Actually, there are a lot of warehouses here. There's one full of bricks, others I've seen full of boxes of food and dead ahead we can see the actual frontier a big concrete structure and the Dominican flag on top oh honey Abraham seems to know everybody here just said hello to a policeman and we're passing through
22:26that's the great frontier building here. Haiti is just the other side there and there are some more Dominican soldiers just here in front of us in their khaki uniforms. So we're trying to be a bit discreet so I'm recording on my phone and we can see into Haiti a bunch of 4x4s, pretty beaten up ones and motorbikes and here's a man with a wheelbarrow coming from the Dominican Republic taking a sack of something or other into Haiti. Here's another man with a couple of plastic chairs. I've seen onions go through. I'm being warned not to take any photos or videos. The soldiers did photograph us and examine my colleague's press pass.
23:11It seemed like the right time to leave.
23:18We've just come round the corner from the main border crossing here in Comendador and there's a new fence that's been built, concrete slabs at the bottom topped off with metal grills and on top of that rolled barbed wire going all along, altogether about two, three metres high. and there's a big, large, concrete watchtower and this is part of the tough anti-immigration policy, building a border wall, rather like President Trump announced for the Mexico border. Abraham, how much of this new wall is there here? Six kilometres. So it's six kilometres. And how much of the new wall in total do you think has been built along the border?
24:07As far as I know in Dajabón, there are around 20 kilometres of fence has been built. And next to the other official crossings is where they are investing more in the development of the border wall. From the total of 200 that they would want to build, which is around half of the total extension of the frontier. So the plan is to build 200 kilometres? Approximately, yes. and this is another part of the president's policy to keep Haitians out.
24:43We got as close as we could to the border fence. Now we're waiting up the road for the daily arrival of deportees being sent back to Haiti. Here they come. There's a big coach. It says Dirección General de Migración and Control Migratorio, the next truck. It looks like a police truck that you keep prisoners in, and there are several of them coming along now. These are migrants who have been taken from Jaina, the centre near the capital. They're heading straight to the border now. They genuinely look like trucks you might keep prisoners in. There are high grills at the top. And so far we've seen a couple of coaches and about four or five of these trucks going by.
Read the full transcript
25:36Apparently full of what are supposed to be Haitian migrants, illegals, heading back to the border. How often does this happen, Abraham? Every day, every day, he's saying. I mean, we saw six just now. Is that an average number?
25:58The convoys could be as large as 20 on weekdays, Monday through Friday. 20? How many people is that altogether? Well, we know that many times, 850, 870, more or less. Approximately 850, 870. Wow, that's quite a lot. The president talks about 10 ,000 people a week being expelled back to Haiti. Do you think those are the kind of numbers that they're reaching at the moment? I think that yes. He thinks yes. And do you think those people who are being put across the border back into Haiti, are they staying in Haiti or are they coming back?
26:41I would calculate that around 50 % of those who are deported return immediately. We know of people who have been counted several times. With the violence and instability in Haiti, you can see why people will keep trying to cross the border into the Dominican Republic. In recent years, this country has had the fastest-growing economy in Latin America and has a GDP per person, which is six times that of Haiti, though it's also one of the most unequal societies in the world. The Dominican president, Luis Abinader, says it's the international community, not Dominicans, who should be doing more to help Haitians.
27:25And he remains, as he puts it, committed to protecting his country and to expelling all illegal migrants. You see this every day and you deal with cases each week. Does it disturb you still, what's going on?
27:44You can never get used to it because it's very hard to get used to injustice. Sometimes you feel helpless, sometimes you feel like you want to cry because some of the cases are quite moving. You can't get used to the situation. No matter how much you see it, it always hits you.
28:08That's Crossing Continents from the Dominican Republic. I'm John Murphy, the producer's Bob Howard and the programme was mixed by Rod Farker. The production coordinator is Katie Morrison and the editor of the series is Penny Murphy. Hello, I'm Amol Rajan and from BBC Radio 4, this is Radical. We are living through one of those hinge moments in history when all the old certainties crumble and a new world struggles to be born. So the idea behind this podcast is to help you navigate it. What's really changed is the volume of information. That has exploded. and also by offering a safe space for the radical ideas that our future demands.
28:52Go to the Chancellor and say, radically cut the taxes of those with children. Telling our stories is powerful and a radical act. Listen to Radical with Amol Rajan on BBC Sounds.
From the publisher
How Haitians in the Dominican Republic are being targeted for expulsion. The Dominican Republic is the Caribbean’s number one tourist destination. Last year 11 million visitors came here, many enjoying the five star resorts that skirt the island’s coast.
Much of the construction work building those tourist facilities is in fact done by Haitians, and many of the staff who work in them are from Haiti, which occupies the western half of this island of Hispaniola. Over recent years the tourism industry has helped make the Dominican economy the fastest growing in Latin America.
However, the Dominican government is now implementing one of the most systematic deportation policies anywhere in the world. Last year the president, Luis Abinader, announced that his country would expel illegal migrants at the rate of ten thousand a week. The chief target is Haitians and people of Haitian descent. President Abinader says he is keeping his country secure and implementing the constitution. Meanwhile Haitians in the Dominican Republic are living in fear of raids by the immigration authorities and of being sent back across the border, to a country riven by violence as well as political and economic instability.
John Murphy is in the Dominican Republic to talk to Haitians stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Producer: Bob Howard Mix: Rod Farquhar Programme Coordinator: Katie Morrison Series Editor: Penny Murphy
