Suing 'Alligator Alcatraz': Immigration in the US

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1:05BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Thank you for downloading the Crossing Continents podcast. I'm Josephine Cassidy and I'm reporting from Florida, which is at the forefront of President Trump's immigration crackdown.

1:23Ah, OK, OK. I think we're here. So there's a big slowdown congestion sign. Turn right onto training and transition. and there's an Alligator Alcatraz sign. I'm in the car with immigration lawyer Mitch Gonzalez. It's July and we're driving to Alligator Alcatraz, a new immigration detention centre deep in Florida's swamp plant. So what time is the appointment? I may be set after 8.30 and it's 8.18 now. So we're bang on time. Early. We're early, yes. We're early. Let's see what happens. I'm Josephine Cassidy and for this Crossing Continents I'm in Florida where this controversial new centre with a foreboding name has become a lightning rod for fierce debates around immigration in the US.

2:06I assume we're going to get stopped quite soon, I would imagine. There's a truck up in front of us with blue flashing lights. We're accompanying Mitch as he tries to make a visit to his client, Michael, who's being held inside. Mitch is slight, with dark curly hair and tattoos peeking out from under his shirt sleeves. He describes himself as a movement or activist lawyer, and he has this frenetic energy fuelled by adrenaline and Cuban espresso. I have my ID on me. And just in case, just because I am Mitch Gonzalez and I am Cuban American, I also brought my passport card. Just in case, I don't know, in case they let me in there and they don't want to let me out again.

2:47Alligator Alcatraz was built very quickly, in eight days at the end of June. It's part of an expansion in the detention system, following President Trump's crackdown on immigration. The centre's on an abandoned airstrip in the middle of the Everglades, a protected wetland that's famous for its alligators. Checkpoint ahead. It's on this sign. It does sort of feel like we're somewhere we're not meant to be. It does, yeah. It's the last week of July, and to our knowledge, no lawyers or journalists have been allowed into Alligator Alcatraz since it opened around four weeks before our visit. This question around legal access to the facility is at the centre of a lawsuit.

3:31Mitch's organisation, Sanctuary of the South, along with other legal groups, is suing the Trump administration. They claim that without access to confidential, in-person legal visits, the rights of the people inside are being violated. But the people running this facility have claimed that there is access for lawyers. So we're trying it out to see whether Mitch can meet with his client today. Good morning. How y 'all doing? I'm here for a legal visit. I submitted my credentials the day before yesterday. As an attorney? As an attorney, yeah.

4:09We pull up at a checkpoint on the road into the centre. I'm not sure if they're having any visitors come in today. Sorry, I was told that this week there would finally be in-person legal visitation and I submitted my credentials and paperwork two days ago to visit my client. Everyone's being very polite, but the atmosphere's tense. Just behind the police officer who's talking to Mitch, there's an armed state trooper who's peering through the window of our car. A few metres away are two Florida National Guards in full camo with big guns. I mean, legally, I'm supposed to have the right to just see my client.

4:45I understand, but that's why you've got to go through that. Right. The police officer gets a woman who works for the detention centre on the phone. She says that Mitch has to send an email. He's already done that, but he's told to wait a few more days for a reply. That's, but a few days, that's a long time for something that I should be able to do. I understand you have your... Mitch says that in-person visits are the norm at other immigration detention centres. He doesn't normally need to book, he just turns up. But this centre is different. When we visit, Michael's been detained here for three and a half weeks.

5:21Mitch has managed to have a video call with him, but he didn't feel assured that it was confidential. For him, in-person meetings are at the heart of lawyer-client confidentiality. This is the first time this has ever happened to me. I've been doing this over a decade. And at every other detention facility, I can just go in the day of with my legal credentials and meet my client. They tell him to email again. All right. Thanks, officer. All right. Close your truck. Have a good one, y 'all. 15 minutes of negotiation later, it's clear that we're not getting in today. We turn around and drive back out, along the road lined with black metal fences.

6:02Back on the main road, we pull over, and Mitch looks defeated. And now I have to go tell his family that I'm still not able to see him in person. And that is really heartbreaking. The stress that they're enduring, the pain and suffering that they're enduring right now, is unspeakable. Every day, not knowing what is going to happen. Will he die in there? Will he get disappeared and we won't know where he's been sent? And they look to me for answers and I'm running out. There's been confusion about who is in charge here. These kinds of facilities are usually managed by the federal government in Washington.

6:35But Alligator Alcatraz is managed by the Florida State Emergency Department. And the Trump administration has claimed this means that they don't have to comply with federal law. There's no public phone number for the facility. Only that email address, which Mitch says sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. Legal at privacy6.com. That doesn't sound like a real email address. No. What is privacy6? And I'm concerned about privacies one through five. I mean, honestly, who is in charge here? What is going on? What kind of pyramid scheme, profit scam are we dealing with here? We know from official photos of the site that it consists of large white tents.

7:21Each tent contains eight big cages, with bunk beds sleeping 32 men. It can house 2 ,000 people, but when we go there, it's not at capacity. Mitch says that his client Michael, who's also suffering from a serious health condition, has no idea how long he'll be there or what might happen to him. I'm running, I'm just running out of tools, I'm running out of tools. I can't even tell him who's in charge of whether or not he ever leaves this place they're making me futile I just know Michael's right in there and I can't meet with him and to be able to hear from him and for him to know he can speak freely without fear of reprisals it's not asking for a lot that is asking for the barest minimum

8:14The American people overwhelmingly voted to have these illegals removed from our country. The next day, we're on the same road heading to the same place, but with a very different person. We are going to the entrance of what's called Alligator Alcatraz. Jack Lombardi is a Republican. He's voted for Trump in the last three elections and has his own political aspirations in the state of Florida. He has a stocky build and is a mixed martial arts fighter. The gate and everything we just saw right there is a representation that borders work. There's just exactly the concept. You want to know who's coming into your facility because you want to know they're not a threat.

9:02We pull over opposite the entrance.

9:09We step outside into the heat. We're not trying to get into the centre like we did the day before with Mitch. Instead, we stop at the big blue road sign with Alligator Alcatraz printed in white letters. When I first heard about this centre, I thought that that was just a nickname, but it's not. Yeah, can you get a picture? So you're just taking a picture of the sign? The sign in the background? This sign has become something of a tourist attraction for people who support Trump's approach to immigration. We see four groups of people pull over to take their photo with the sign. An elderly couple, a man with his young son, and a trucker who takes a selfie.

9:47You had your picture taken with the sign just then. What are you going to do with it? I don't know. It's more of a novelty. Maybe nothing. Maybe send it to some of my friends, you know. Can you see why someone who maybe their son or their brother was inside there, they were incredibly worried about. It might feel like it's quite insensitive for people to be coming and treating it like a tourist attraction. I can empathise with people who don't know when they're going to see their loved one again. If the person is a criminal or not, it's still your loved one. The Miami Herald reported in July that of the 700 detainees at the time, 250 had no criminal record.

10:24But they did have immigration violations. Well, we have laws that you have to follow. And you're a guest in our country. So, you know, if you're going to break one law, when does it end? The facts are you came to this country illegally. You came in here unwanted. There's been lots of reports, and we've heard from people, about the conditions inside. Open toilets, which are often flowing into the site, one meal a day. I think at first there were a lot of mosquitoes. It was very hot in there. Do you feel like there are appropriate conditions to keep people in here? I would say most of it would be misrepresented, right?

11:03These people are going to, listen, they're going to advocate for themselves, but again, they broke our laws, they came here, that's what you do with criminals. A spokesperson for the Florida Division of Emergency Management told us that these allegations are false, and that detainees receive three meals per day and have access to indoor and outdoor recreation facilities. Without journalists like us being able to get inside, and with conflicting reports from those who have been in the facility, it's their word against the detainees. Turn the air on, Jack. We get back into the car to escape the heat.

11:38If it did happen that there was really concrete, irrefutable evidence that there was inhumane treatment of people in that centre, how would you feel about that? If there was widespread, rampant, ignored, irresponsible treatment, that would be a problem because these people don't deserve that. It's just not cool. It's not a representation of the nation that I love. I do believe in my heart that the people, because this got so much spotlight on it, they don't want bad press. They do not want it, and they're going to nip it in the butt as quickly as possible. And that's my hope and prayer for the system to work, that it works in a humane, compassionate way.

12:17But we still don't want you here.

12:26We leave Jack and drive back towards Miami. Native Americans who live in this area call it grassy waters, and you can see why. On both sides of the road, flat swampland expands out to the horizon. The grasses rise from an opaque still water, which is home to hundreds of thousands of alligators. Oh my gosh. Alligator roadkill, a very squashed alligator just on the side of the road. basically severed in two. Oh God, oh gosh. We're told by a local environmentalist that increased traffic coming in and out of the detention centre is posing a threat to alligators. There is a second lawsuit against alligator Alcatraz.

13:09It's all about the effects of the facility on the Everglades which surround it. Environmental groups sued the government claiming that they didn't do an environmental impact analysis before construction, which they say is required by law. And just last week, after our trip to Florida, there was a big development in this case. A judge ruled that much of the detention centre must be dismantled and no new migrants taken there. It's a preliminary ruling and the case will continue to be litigated. As we record, the Florida state government has already filed an appeal.

13:49After an hour and a half driving through the Everglades swamp, we approach the skyscrapers, highways and palm trees of Miami.

14:01Immigration lawyer Mitch takes us to meet his client Michael's mom, Yanisi Fernandez. She lives in a modern apartment block right on the edge of one of Miami's islands, looking out over the ocean.

14:15Yanisi lives here with Michael's wife and their two-year-old daughter, who's a US citizen. And you can feel right away that this is a home where someone's missing. Oh, this is Michael's dog. She's stressed out. She's losing a lot of hair. She's really stressed. We sit down on the sofa with Yanisi. She came to the US eight years ago from Cuba as an asylum seeker, a political refugee. She now has a green card, so is allowed by the US government to live and work here. Then, in 2019, Michael joined her in the US. Michael was being persecuted by the government. The Cuban government works in a way that if you have a family member who is a political prisoner, they abuse the whole family.

15:03Michael presented himself at the US border. He was initially detained and then given parole, which means that he was allowed to stay in the US for a year because of having a credible fear for his safety in his home country. He really liked Miami. Michael first started working as a gardener in Fort Lauderdale and life was normal. Michael's case is complicated, as immigration cases often are. His lawyer Mitch tells us that by 2025, Michael did have an order issued for his removal from the country, although he says he didn't know about it. And he had a criminal record. Mitch says that Michael had a job selling hot tubs for a man who turned out to be a fraudster.

15:48Michael said he had no idea that the business was a scam. He was just on the bottom rung as a salesman. But he pleaded guilty as part of a deal to avoid going to court. Then in May this year... I was with him on the day that he was pulled over. He was driving to his niece's school not far from here, a few blocks away, and they stopped him with an expired driving license. Eight weeks after this arrest, having been moved around the Florida jail system, Michael ended up at Alligator Alcatraz. Normally, the families and lawyers of detained immigrants can find out where they're being held by searching for their name on a government database.

16:30But Yanisi says Michael didn't show up, which is something we've heard about a number of detainees in Alligator Alcatraz. We had no idea where he was until he called us. He said, Mom, they took me to the facility of the crocodiles. That's how he put it. Michael had been at the facility less than a week when Yanisi got a call from some of the men detained alongside him. They called me and told me that Michael woke up covered in blood. but then they transferred him to hospital. She says that Michael had stage 4 hemorrhoids, the most severe type. In the hospital, he underwent colon surgery. And back at the facility, Michael called his mom.

17:16He couldn't even stay on the phone for more than a few seconds because he was in such severe pain. He said, I have an infection and I can't take it anymore. He felt he was going to have a heart attack and they took him back to hospital. They had him handcuffed the entire night. The feet, the hands and the waist. Unable to sleep because he has to sleep face down because of his surgery. They didn't let him shower. They wouldn't give him a change of underwear. His briefs were covered in his blood. In stool. This is not hygienic. They left him there like a dog. Like someone who's been thrown away.

18:02Michael's testimony is included in the lawsuit that Mitch's organisation and others have filed against Alligator Alcatraz to demand legal access to detainees. State and federal officials have told us that the claims about Michael's treatment are false and that he received proper medical care and medications. They also said this in their response to us. When will the media stop peddling hoaxes about illegal alien detention centers and start focusing on American victims of illegal alien crime?

18:53or nitrites in any of their deli meat, so you can pack lunch boxes with peace of mind. Get back to school ready at Whole Foods Market. The number of people in immigrant detention is at a record high in the U.S. President Trump came to office promising mass deportations, and he's tripled the budget of ICE, the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement. All of this means that the scale and the nature of the work of immigration lawyers is changing drastically. Sometimes I compare myself to the president. I go, I want to have his energy. I don't know how this man can just fight so many battles all the time.

19:36Gunther Sanabria has been an immigration lawyer for 25 years. We meet him at his offices on the outskirts of Miami, where he says that he and his team are working overtime. Before, to prove an asylum, it wasn't that difficult. Now, the judges are not just buying any testimony. Now they want proof, they want evidence. Oh, Venezuela has a dictator. Well, prove it to me. Show me. Isn't that right that they would be exerting that level of due diligence? Yes, I agree. But at the same time, sometimes when a father leaves a country, he's more worried about bringing his baby out than the evidence that he was being beat up by the cops or the government.

20:19So then what do we do? We don't believe him and we send him back and he potentially dies. Isn't that part of the equation? Is it different in this Trump administration compared to the last Trump administration? Yes. The new administration have realized that the laws were there and they're using them. Now they do things by the book because the law has been there for many years. It's just that nobody noticed. So if these laws have already existed, why is it a problem that this administration is enforcing them? That is surely their right. Correct. But that's more like a moral or a personal dilemma.

20:56What do we do if the government allowed you to be here for 20 years and now tells you, well, the law says that I can kick you out and it kicks you out. But you were here 20 years, you have kids here, you bought a house, you opened a business. And just because the government can't do it, should they do it? That's the question.

21:23We're running a bit late, partly because we didn't account for the fact that walking around the hotel to get to the entrance would take about 10 minutes. It's an absolutely massive hotel. This hotel is the venue of the Florida Republican Party convention, and people seem in high spirits letting loose after a day of meetings.

21:47We find the man we're here to meet, Evan Power, the chairman of the Florida Party. He takes us into a side room. People are fired up about the idea that we are finally closing the border and sending people who are here illegally who are committing crimes out of the country. When Alligator Alcatraz opened, Evan says he saw an opportunity, and the Florida Republican Party commissioned Alligator Alcatraz merchandise. They started selling T-shirts, baseball caps and beer coolers, all with pictures of alligators on them. Our voters are excited that we're bringing law and order back, because here's the fact, is that Lakin Riley was murdered by a criminal illegal.

22:27The case of 22-year-old Lakin Riley, who was murdered last year by a man who entered the country illegally has become a rallying cry for conservatives calling for tougher borders. And so people are excited that this administration has closed the border and is starting to get rid of these people who've committed crimes who have no business being in the United States. To give you a few examples of some people who have been in Alligator Alcatraz, there was a 15-year-old boy there with no criminal record. There's been a Cuban asylum seeker there with no criminal record. A Guatemalan who's been here for 20 years with no criminal record.

22:58none of those people seem to fit the profile that you're talking about. Well, they're here illegally. You also have people who are sexual predators who have been caught. You have people who've committed murder in other countries that were sent to Alligator Alcatraz. I think what you have is people who are here illegally and we're enforcing the laws of our country. But if you're waiting for your asylum claim, you're not here illegally? Generally, I think what we would say is it's the wait-in-place policy that Trump has had is that if you're claiming asylum, you should wait in the country that you're waiting for before you come here.

23:33But on the US government website, on the Citizenship and Immigration Services website, it says that you have to be in the US to seek asylum here. There's, I think it's, I'm not a huge immigration expert, but I think... This is a sticking point. There have been some routes to claim asylum from outside the US, but President Trump has suspended the main refugee program. and the government website itself advises people to request asylum at the border when they're in the country. We cannot allow people to claim asylum, enter our country and then disappear because that's what's been happening. We've also heard about people who, for example, have medical conditions in Alligator Alcatraz.

24:15They say they're not receiving proper care, they've had operations where they need care after them. What does that concern you? I have full faith in our Department of Emergency Management who's running that facility. I've not been there, but the people I know that have been there say it's a really nice facility, and I trust their opinion. When you hear these sorts of claims from Democrats, from immigration lawyers, do you spend time thinking about whether or not some of those complaints have evidence and whether there could be some truth behind them? I think under the current leadership, there's no possibility that that would be happening.