The real ‘Yellowstone’: a battle for the cowboy way of life

4 Nov 2025 · 27 min · 8 chapters

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In short

The episode of Crossing Continents, “The real ‘Yellowstone’: a battle for the cowboy way of life,” explores how Montana ranching and cowboy culture are being threatened by development and by proposed federal public-land selloffs. Guests include Brud Smith, a fifth-generation ranch owner in rural southwest Montana who grazes cattle on leased federal land (paying about $1.35 per cow per month versus ~$29 on private land); Tracy Stone Manning, former Biden-era head of the Bureau of Land Management and now head of the Wilderness Society, arguing public lands should be protected for future access; William Perry Pendley, a controversial conservative land lawyer who previously led BLM under Trump and supports selling/disposing of land; and Ryan Massad, a MAGA rancher who says public lands are multi-use and helped form cross-partisan opposition.

Key claims

selling up to 3 million acres would be a “slippery slope,” and public-land access is economically crucial for ranchers. Examples include grazing permits near Missoula, opposition to Senator Mike Lee’s bill, and Bozeman’s growth (“Boz Angeles”) driving up prices and replacing grazing/wildlife habitat.

Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.

Chapters

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Life on the Smith Ranch

1:10 to 3:42

Exploring the cowboy culture and daily life on a Montana ranch.

“Sniff, he's above my age in horse years.”

The Debate Over Public Lands

3:52 to 6:41

Discussing the ownership and management of public lands in Montana.

“You see where the brown is over there, where it starts out there?”

Legislation and Land Management

6:43 to 11:32

Examining proposed legislation concerning public land sales and its implications.

“In states like Utah, it's even more extreme.”

Historical Context of Land Ownership

11:39 to 14:01

Understanding the historical roots of federal land ownership in the West.

“I'm with Brad's ranch hand, Willie, back in the old barn.”

Controversial Figures and Public Land Debate

14:01 to 16:40

Explore the controversial nature of Pendley and the federal land management debate.

“When he headed up the Federal Land Agency under President Trump, a judge ruled that he was in the position unlawfully, because his appointment was never confirmed by the Senate.”

Ranchers' Perspectives on Public Lands

16:41 to 20:40

Ranchers discuss their dependency on public lands and the implications of proposed sales.

“Penley, I got to tell you, if we had not been authorized to dispose of all of this land, none of this would have been possible.”

Cultural Shifts in Montana's Communities

21:31 to 28:00

Discover the cultural changes in Montana and the impact of newcomers on local traditions.

“You're going to see top level talent tonight, top level competitors, top level bucket horses, bucket bulls.”

The Impact of Urbanization on Wilderness

28:00 to 28:33

Explore the consequences of urbanization on natural landscapes and lifestyles.

“Once you pave wilderness, it's not going to come back.”
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Transcript

Automatic transcript. May contain errors.

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1:10This is the horse I ride. Sniff, he's above my age in horse years. Brud Smith gently strokes the neck of a glossy chestnut horse. The little white patch on its muzzle matches Brud's moustache. On his head sits a wide-rimmed cowboy hat. He turns well and he's real gentle, but he's got lots of action when you go after a cow and have to turn him or whatever. I'm on a ranch in rural southwest Montana in the United States. A single dirt track led us to the entrance, marked, as most ranches are, by a timber archway. There's a hand-painted sign welcoming us to the Smith Ranch. In the distance, in all directions, are mountains.

1:51What makes a good horse is if they can chase a cow and turn the cow. They have to have a lot of horse sense too. They say if you've got a good horse sense, you're smart or whatever. And horses are pretty smart. This is a medium-sized ranch, Brud tells me. He owns the place, a real-life cowboy. Each summer, they saddle up the horses and drive their cattle into the mountains to graze the grass on higher ground. Think roping, lassoing and lots of yeehawing. This frees up the land on the main ranch for making hay, ready to feed the cows when Montana's brutal winter comes. This is our tackle. This is what you dally on when you rope a calf or a cow.

2:36You dally the rope around that to hold them. He takes us into a barn that's been standing here for more than a century. Occasionally, planks of wood get dislodged from the floor when you step in the wrong place. That's my saddle. I've had that since 1950. Montana is a western US state that goes all the way up to the Canadian border. The TV series Yellowstone, featuring 21st century gun-toting ranchers in the state's stunning landscapes, was set here. This is all part of a popular revival in country music and cowboy culture. But for Brudd and his family, this is their way of life, steeped in tradition.

3:15And this one is another saddle that's the same model as that. It was probably built in 1959. That's my daughter's. The ranch has been in this family for five generations. But there's now a feeling that this way of life is under threat by incomers to the area and by an ongoing debate about who should own the land here. I'm Ellie House, and this is Crossing Continents from the United States.

3:51I hop into Brad's dusty 4x4 truck. You see where the brown is over there, where it starts out there? Yeah. That's the edge of our ranch there, and we probably go over to where the trees, just on the side of the big trees down there. I've never been somewhere with so much open space. This area is known as Big Sky Country. It's almost overwhelming, the acres of flat land rimmed by mountains that poke up into an endless blue sky. There above those bales, it goes out to there. This is a patchwork of land, some in the private ownership of Brudd and his family. And actually that's private land up to that sign up there.

4:37And some is owned by the federal government. In the US, each state has its own government. But the national leadership, currently headed up by President Trump, is the federal government in Washington, D.C. This is all federal land here, and then it's federal land beyond that. About 30 % of Montana is owned by the federal government, and that's referred to as public or federal land. That percentage is higher in some other Western states. And this land is at the centre of a debate. Some think the government shouldn't own so much, calling for portions to be sold off or transferred to the state authorities.

5:19But Brudd says access to this land, and keeping it publicly owned, is crucial to his ranch. That could be a moose track, that big track right below there. Which one? This one. Oh, wow. We pull over near a muddy patch churned up by wild animals, horses and quad bikes next to a pristine meadow that's skirted by pine trees. So this is public land. So explain to me how it works. Well, we have a permit, a certain amount that we could run up here on a forest permit during the months of middle of June to the middle of October. Brudd leases this land from the government so that his cattle can graze up here in the summer.

6:01He pays$1.35 for each cow every month. But it's very, very low compared to what private property leaps for. The average monthly cost for each cow on private land here in Montana is around$29. How important is having access to this public land for your business, for your ranch? Incredibly important because without it you'd have to cut down your operation as to the number of cattle you're on. And most of the time you're running kind of on a margin. The cost of running a ranch, unfortunately, is very high too. Equipment's high, fuels high, all that. So the ranching industry here really relies on having access to public lands?

6:40Oh, definitely. Nearly one out of every three acres in America is owned by the federal government. In states like Utah, it's even more extreme. Almost 70 % of our land is controlled by Washington, D.C. That's not sustainable. It's not fair. It's not serving the Americans who actually live here. President Trump gets it. That's why his secretary... This is Utah Senator Mike Lee in a promotional video posted on X. He made a proposal on public land as part of President Trump's big, beautiful bill this summer, a mega piece of legislation where the president set out his spending plans. Now, Senator Lee's proposal would have required the government to sell up to 3 million acres of public land.

7:26In the West, for house building amid a nationwide shortage. We're opening underused federal land to expand housing, support local development, and get Washington, D.C. out of the way of communities that are just trying to grow. Three million acres sounds like a lot, but it's less than 1 % of what the government owns. That's how we make government smaller, freer, and work for Americans. Lee said it would raise as much as$10 billion for the federal government. I think that our public lands are one of our country's best ideas. This idea that we own these lands in common as American citizens is unique around the world at the scale at which we're talking about and beautiful.

8:13We meet Tracy Stone Manning by a creek on public land near the city of Missoula in Montana. Oh, wow. Yeah. Wow. That was a mother white-tailed deer and her fawn still with spots. They were just galloping in front of us. They just galloped away from us. Tracy headed up the Bureau of Land Management under President Joe Biden, the biggest agency overseeing federal lands. And she's now in charge of the Wilderness Society, which is an environmental conservation non-profit. The current administration under President Trump talks about our public lands in the form of a balance sheet. That kind of language and that kind of approach is about today's profits, not about what we need to pay forward to the future so that future generations have the ability to access and touch nature, have the ability to hunt and fish and camp and bird watch and picnic like we do.

9:12But Senator Mike Lee has argued that there's a real need to develop some of this land for housing. Oh, this isn't about housing. This is about a values war that the federal government should own these lands. The senator's sell-off proposal exempted national parks, monuments, protected wilderness areas. He said that nearly all of the land for sale would be close to an existing town or city. And he insisted that his proposal only covered a tiny portion of this land. Senator Lee was pretty clear that it would be maximum 0.75 % of public lands that would be eligible for sale, which is a pretty small percentage.

9:56The idea that this year they're going to just sell off just 3 million acres, what about next year? And what about the year after that? If you do that every year for 100 years, you don't have public lands left. So I think that's really what drove the backlash, people understanding this was the beginning of a very bad idea. This is ideological for a lot of people here. The land where Brudd grazes his cattle wasn't part of the proposed sell-off, but for many, it's seen as a slippery slope. housing is being used as a wedge to try and sell off public lands, to get at that deeper value of we don't like the federal government.

10:45The idea of a sell-off is very unpopular here in Montana. The state was left out of the senator's draft legislation, so land would be eligible for sale in all the other mainland western states, but not here. The public in huge numbers said don't sell. Republican Senator Lee first thinned down his proposal, then, facing opposition even from inside his own party, was forced to drop the whole thing. But Tracy says the fight isn't over. Senator Lee, when he withdrew his language, was very clear that he wasn't done. So the threat of losing this identity that we have in common as Americans, that we have this cherished thing called public lands, is real.

11:32and the risk to tinkering with that is more risk than reward. We approached Dennis Lee for an interview but didn't get a response.

11:48I'm with Brad's ranch hand, Willie, back in the old barn. He's got long blonde hair, aviator sunglasses and, of course, a cowboy hat. Open it. Open like that? Okay. He's showing me Pitch, his favourite horse A jet black fella with one eye missing Put it up to his nose, he'll find it Here you go Pitch

12:12I've never said a horse before, this is exciting So what sort of things do you do with Pitch and the horses around here? Mostly push cattle, which would be pushing the cattle to grass Branding season, horses are used quite a bit Do you still rope calves without dragging them to the fire? so you rope them by the heel. It's like the best part of the job. It's what young guys and old guys just love. Ranchers out here mark their cattle with a hot brand to prove who owns what. You're here at like four o 'clock in the morning. Everyone's got chaps and spears. You're looking in the 1800s still. These cowboy traditions do come from the 19th century.

12:48It's when these communities were first established. As the United States pushed west, it took over lands, often brutally from the Native Americans. This history is a big part of how the federal government came to own so much of the territory out here. This ranch had at least three homesteads on it here to begin with, and then there were some others. There was a drive to get American families settling in the West, called homesteading. The government would give settlers 160 acres for almost nothing if they could live self-sufficiently off that land. That was in the 1860s. It was right after the Civil War, and that's when people came out and they homesteaded.

13:32But not all the land was claimed for homesteads, and so much of it remained in federal hands. Whether it's right for the government to own all this land has been an on-and-off debate for decades. The United States government owns one-third of the country, 640 million acres. Most of that's in the American West. This is lawyer William Perry Pendley. I also ran the Bureau of Land Management for President Trump in his first term. Pendley is a controversial figure. When he headed up the Federal Land Agency under President Trump, a judge ruled that he was in the position unlawfully, because his appointment was never confirmed by the Senate.

14:12He was also an author on Project 2025, a conservative blueprint for Trump's second presidency. So when the federal government sneezes, we catch a cold. We really can't do anything economically without the permission of the federal government. A lot of these debates come back to a disparity between the east and the west of this country. The federal government owns around half of the land over here in the west, but only 4 % in the rest of the US. The people in Ohio, if they decide they want to do something, they don't have to say mother may I to the federal land managers in Washington, D.C. This is a point that Senator Mike Lee and his supporters made when trying to get his idea passed in Trump's big, beautiful bill.

14:59Well, I didn't take a position on Senator Lee's proposal. I will say all the photographs that I saw on X in opposition were of lands that I recognised as national parks or wilderness areas or even private land. and none of those were in his proposal. Critics of a sell-off posted photos on social media of public lands, many of which the senator said weren't actually part of his bill. He called out what he dubbed misinformation and in some cases outright lies. No one has ever suggested that we sell any part of our national parks. There's recent polling that shows 71 % oppose the sale of existing public lands to private bidders.

15:51So it is quite an unpopular proposal in general. Is that something you found? No. Well, based on what? Based on what? I saw some pictures on the internet that purport to show the lands that were going to be sold, and I wouldn't want to sell that. Public land is sometimes given up by the government for development, even in the current system. just nowhere near the scale that was proposed. When I was running the Bureau of Land Management for President Trump during his first term, I went down to Las Vegas. This comes up a lot. The Nevada casino city is infamously surrounded by federally owned desert land, making economic growth difficult.

16:35But since the 90s, there has been piecemeal sale or transfer of some of this land for development. And I met with a BLM official, and he pointed out all the things that were there, housing developments, commercial activity, recreation facilities. And he said, Mr. Penley, I got to tell you, if we had not been authorized to dispose of all of this land, none of this would have been possible. And all this economic activity you see here would have been prevented. I frankly think if fully informed, the American people would agree with that. Is there part of this argument that is more ideological, you know, more of the traditional libertarian anti-big state view?

17:22You know, it's just you just don't like the federal government. Is that part of it? No. No, that's none of it. The Constitution controls, federal laws control, unelected bureaucrats do not control. And that's the difference. This view of federal agencies has become part of mainstream Republican politics, and the recent proposals to sell public land came from the American political right. But it wasn't just shot down by people on the left. In a time where the US feels extremely polarised, on this issue, an unlikely coalition has formed. So I guess my political ethos is, I think I would be, the public would label me a conservative, but I believe in personal responsibility for sure.

18:14Ryan Massad is another rancher. We meet him in a bar in the Montana town of Dillon, where the first things we saw were shops to get your saddle repaired, to get new cowboy boots or to buy a gun. Did you hear about the proposal in the big, beautiful bill to sell off some public lands? Yeah. What did you think about that? I thought it was a bad idea. A bad idea. My first thought that comes, you know, was everything was, oh my gosh, this can't be true. There are very few ranches out here that don't depend on public ground. It's huge. Brian's not alone. Many Trump-supporting ranches, MAGA influencers and conservative hunters actively campaigned against Lee's bill, finding themselves on the same side as activists from the left.

19:04So we're all in lockstep together. So it doesn't matter if you're on the left, you're extreme environmentalists, or if all of our congressional delegation, our senators and congressmen and our governor are all supposedly far-right conservatives. And everybody said no on this one. It was a real good common core issue. And why do you think this issue on public lands was something that crossed that partisan divide politically? Because it's a multi-use. Public land is multi-use and so it brings your hunters together, your recreators together, your landowners that are there using it and we're all starting to realize how precious open space is.

19:43I think that's what brought us together. People listening to this might find it quite interesting to hear a conservative rancher advocating for the federal government to manage the lands over giving them to the market. And typically, the traditional conservative view is that the market wins. Is there a contradiction there? It's a different thing. Absolutely not. You sell to the highest bidder, it doesn't work, especially today, because the highest bidders, there's getting fewer and fewer and fewer of those that can do it. And the people who need it the most, and it trickles all the way down to the consumer, don't get anything, they get what's left, and that's not good for anybody.

20:53Tap summer fruit fest at Whole Foods Market. How did a boycott Jimmy become a billionaire from posting videos? On Good Bad Billionaire, we're going to find out how the world's most popular YouTuber, Mr Beast, made his fortune. He's buried himself in a coffin for days. Counted to 100 ,000 on camera. And even recreated squid games, all in an attempt to go viral on the internet. But it all started when he gave a homeless man$10 ,000. So is he a philanthropist reshaping capitalism? Or is he just the king of the attention economy? Find out on Good Bad Billionaire. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

21:30You're in Montana on a Thursday night. Are you ready to party? This is quite a party. You're going to see top level talent tonight, top level competitors, top level bucket horses, bucket bulls. There are a lot of women in cowboy boots and men with big buckles. The red, white and blue of the American flag is everywhere. I can definitively say this is my first rodeo. I'm very thankful to be born here in this great state of Montana. A traditional event in this neck of the woods, the patriotism of the crowd can't be contained. There's a lot to be thankful. Are you paying respect for all 50 of those stars?

22:09Are you paying respect for all 13 of those stripes? Are you paying respect for something that still stands for something? Well, friends, I want you to take a second and think. What does that red, white and blue mean? Freedom! A man stands up and yells, Freedom, as we rise for the national anthem. In the home of the brave.

22:37We take our seats again as the riders get ready to compete. This is a variety show of different Western events. The race is a rock rock and where it all comes from. The cowboy that couldn't be thrown and the horse that could not be rode. There's the bucking bronco, calf roping, barrel racing. Perhaps the most terrifying is the bull riding. For the bull riding, they're swapping the cowboy hats for helmets, which I think is a wise choice. The bull rushes out, writhing around furiously, trying to shake off its rider.

23:17Staying on for just eight seconds is considered an achievement.

23:25Round the back of the arena is a burger stall and a taco van. We sit down at a table. What's your name? Deanne. Deanne, nice to meet you, Deanne. You too. How long have you lived in Montana or Bozeman? 60 years and two weeks. Oh, wow. OK, a long time. Deanne says she's noticed big changes in this area in recent years. It's seen an influx of new people drawn to the culture and to the wide open spaces. It's just gotten harder to do everything. You know, prices have been driven up. Traffic is a nightmare. You know, so yeah, a lot of us wish it was the way it used to be. She tells me you can spot the newcomers a mile off with their unsullied cowboy boots and fur vests.

24:08But also, she feels, a disrespect for the history of the land. I'm a big fan of public lands and that's kind of what separates people who have been here a while and the people who have come in is, you know, public lands are great for all this kind of stuff so I think I will buy myself 600 acres of it and build my mansion on it and then block everybody out. This fear is echoed by a lot of people I speak to here in Montana. A feeling that their culture is under threat by all these changes. And in this conversation, one city in particular always comes up. It is 5pm in downtown Bozeman and I'm standing on the main street.

24:48And this city is the centre of Montana's development and population boom. And you can really feel that here. It's absolutely buzzing. It's almost like a Disney version of the American West. You've got all of the cowboy paraphernalia, but it's sold for quite high prices next to things like artisanal soap and handcrafted jewellery. Bozeman, often ranking as one of America's fastest growing cities, is emblematic of a modern changing Montana. It's nicknamed Boz Angeles by locals after the wealthy Californians they say are moving in and driving up prices. I mean, if you look at the Bozeman Valley, and just as you drive, you just see house after house after house, subdivision after subdivision.

25:33And that's beautiful, fertile land that really should be in agriculture. And now it will never be in agriculture. To many, this isn't just about who owns the land. It's about a way of life.

25:49I'm back on the Smith Ranch having lunch on the patio. Brad's wife, Terry, tells me what a changing Montana means to her. And then you get off the plane in Bozeman, and there's all these people with cowboy hats. Well, nothing to do with agriculture, nothing to do with ranching, nothing to do with really Montana. The ranchers point out a subdivision, a stretch of land maybe a kilometre or so across the valley with a handful of houses on it. That's all those little parcels over there as part of the subdivision. So those buildings just going slightly up the mountain, that's a subdivision. It's a relatively new and unwelcome development, says Brud's daughter Darby.

26:28It is disheartening to see the larger trends happening to our neighbours and to the land around us. I think because we are in this for the long haul, there's no way that we're going to sell this place. we put a conservation easement... Darby has recently moved back to Montana from New York to take over the ranch from her father, who's in his 80s. Her cream cowboy hat matches Brud's. What would you say to people who would say, you know, this is, are you not just a NIMBY, not in my backyard, you don't like this development because it's near you? Yeah, I mean, I think that is an interesting thing to grapple with.

Read the full transcript

27:09And, you know, looking, we complain a lot about the housing development that we can see across the valley, but that was once wildlife habitat. That was once grazing land. That land had a use, and now it is wealthy people's houses. So it's not to say that there can't be growth, but it just doesn't make sense to take land that already is important for other reasons. But I think it's more what it represents, which is just this land changing and forever changing. She's worried that as the juggernaut of development continues, whether through future sales of public land or the rush of outsiders flocking to Montana, something fundamental will be lost.

28:05Once you pave wilderness, it's not going to come back. It's forever that way. And, you know, people who buy those sorts of places are trying to get a version of Montana that we understand. It's really appealing to feel like you have your own slice of paradise. But you have to realise that in doing that, you're sullying the very thing that you came for. Assignment was presented by me, Ellie House, The producer was Josephine Cassidy. The production coordinators were Gemma Ashman and Katie Morrison. The sound mix was by Rod Farker. And the editor was Penny Murphy.

28:47He's widely recognised as one of the greatest footballers in history. He's won the prestigious Ballon d 'Or award five times. He's the all-time leading goal scorer in professional football. And according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index, he's the first active footballer in history to achieve billionaire status. Guess who we're talking about yet? That's right, Good Bad Billionaire is exploring the life and fortune of football icon Cristiano Ronaldo. That's Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service. Listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

From the publisher

Ranches, rodeos…and public land. This is the story of a surprising battle raging in the American West, and the unlikely coalition it’s forged. Nearly half of all land in the West of the United States is owned by the federal government. Some people are trying to change that; they argue that part of it should be used for housing, amid a nationwide shortage. But this debate about land and development has touched a nerve in the Western psyche - tapping into bigger fears that the old way of life is under threat. It’s about identity, trust, and the growing popularity of cowboy culture - driven in part by the TV series ‘Yellowstone’. In an increasingly polarised United States, this debate about public land is uniting cowboys, environmental activists, conservatives, and progressives. Ellie House reports from Montana - a state where the prospect of a public land selloff is deeply unpopular, and where people feel like their cultures and traditions are at stake. Presenter: Ellie House Producer: Josephine Casserly Production coordinators: Katie Morrison and Gemma Ashman Mix: Rod Farquhar Series editor: Penny Murphy

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