In short
Victoria Falls region in Zambia/Zimbabwe—how to manage tourism and development while protecting UNESCO World Heritage values and enabling coexistence with elephants.
Guest backgrounds
Chaminolwa Chambu, lead driver for CATS emergency response team (local non-profit promoting coexistence); Larry Norton, Zimbabwean artist in a legal fight over a restaurant near the Falls; Namu Chuma, Environment Africa NGO sustainability advocate; Evans Mubanga, Permanent Secretary, Zambia Ministry of Tourism; Hamakoa Himulonga, community volunteer with Zambia’s Department of National Parks and Wildlife; Teresa Mishiba, coordinator of Livingston volunteer program; Stanley in Nyakichanda, CATS community business organizer; Gift, trained community guide working with elephant whisperer Chamu.
Key claims
Elephant deaths and raids are driven by drought, shrinking corridors from development, and human harassment; UNESCO warns overdevelopment could cost World Heritage status; Zambia argues jobs justify buffer-zone development; locals want jobs but fear losing access and wilderness.
Notable examples
night elephant patrols in Livingston; a court battle to stop/contest a restaurant; UNESCO core vs buffer construction rules; elephant corridors blocked by lodges; free community river cruise to change attitudes.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOLivingston's Night Patrol
1:13 to 1:42
Explore the nighttime activities and concerns in Livingston, Zambia.
“And I've told them it's not really safe for you to be moving in the night.”
Human-Elephant Encounters
1:42 to 2:14
Understand the rising tension between elephants and residents in Livingston.
“You would find, say, at least before 6pm.”
Causes of Elephant Raids
2:14 to 3:38
Learn about the factors causing elephants to invade urban areas.
“I think I would say we have four deaths.”
Balancing Development and Conservation
3:38 to 4:38
Discover the challenges of development near Victoria Falls.
“which has cut across old feeding grounds and routes used by elephants as they migrate from neighbouring Zimbabwe and Botswana to Zambia.”
Artistic and Cultural Significance
4:53 to 8:34
Explore the cultural and emotional significance of Victoria Falls.
“Right now, standing here, I'm struck by the pristine beauty of this place.”
Legal Battles Over Development
8:34 to 9:40
Learn about the ongoing legal issues surrounding construction near the falls.
“How can the ministers not understand this?”
Tourism and Economic Balancing Act
9:40 to 12:01
Understand the impact of tourism on local economies and the environment.
“because my instincts tell me what's coming.”
Future Challenges and Opportunities
12:01 to 14:00
Examine the future pressures and opportunities for development at Victoria Falls.
“will be able to enjoy the view that we are enjoying today.”
Zambia's Tourism Development Dilemma
14:00 to 14:51
Explore the balance between economic development and conservation in Zambia.
“Evans Mubanga is the Permanent Secretary at Zambia's Ministry of Tourism.”
Livingston: A Tourist Capital's Evolution
14:51 to 17:12
Learn about Livingston's transformation from manufacturing to tourism hub.
“Yes, we go to UNESCO, there's a lot of consultation, but I think that we are not doing things outside to destroy our very site, not at all.”
Show all 15 chapters
Community Challenges with Wildlife
17:12 to 19:34
Understand the growing tensions between local communities and wildlife.
“Livingston is the tourist capital of Zambia.”
Chamu: The Elephant Whisperer
19:34 to 22:21
Discover how one individual uses gentle methods to guide elephants away from urban areas.
“Elephants have great hearing and smell, but poor eyesight, so they can be easily startled by all this commotion.”
Changing Perceptions of Elephants
22:21 to 26:06
Learn about efforts to shift local attitudes towards elephants and promote coexistence.
“One shows a little irritation and shakes his head at being asked to leave.”
The Future of Victoria Falls
26:06 to 28:36
Examine hopes for sustainable development that preserves the area's natural beauty.
“and see wildlife as a benefit, not a curse.”
The Lockerbie Tragedy
28:36 to 29:22
Learn about the infamous Lockerbie bombing and its lasting impact on global politics.
“Christmas 1988 a plane takes off from Heathrow Airport 38 minutes later everyone on board is dead A Libyan man, Abdul Bassett al-Megrahi, is convicted of murdering 270 people.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.
0:30School ready at Whole Foods Market. We face the greatest challenges of our time. Challenges that test our limits. There is a place where we can find answers. Where journeys break new ground and connections unlock opportunities. Where innovation can spark real change and our actions can push our world forward. Singapore, where business events can create lasting impact.
1:13Night has fallen and a team of Zambians are patrolling the dark streets on the edge of the peaceful town of Livingston, the tourist capital of Zambia in southern Africa, which lies just a few miles from the Victoria Falls, one of the natural wonders of the world. And I've told them it's not really safe for you to be moving in the night. Please let it be your last time moving in the night. And they said, OK, we don't advise people, you know, to use this area. You would find, say, at least before 6pm. Try by all means to be at your houses. But they're not worried about criminals. They're looking for elephants.
1:54There's an elephant? Yeah. Oh, wow. It's white moving fast. It's gone? Yeah. In recent years, elephants have been coming into the outskirts of the town to raid people's gardens and feast on food waste dumped around the city. It's led to deadly encounters with residents. People have actually died this year from... I think I would say we have four deaths. Chaminolwa Chambu is the lead driver for the emergency response team, created by the Conservation and Tourism Society, or CATS, a local non-profit organization which aims to promote coexistence between communities and wildlife. Elephants are one of the best animals that are very gentle.
2:39So you think it's human behavior that's basically causing them to attack? Yeah, more especially in our communities, you know. They would throw stones on them. There are these gangs whereby they even end up following elephants to the game park. If you want to join their group, you are supposed to touch a tail of an elephant. I would say they lack knowledge in our communities. Is that because the Zambians living in Livingston and around aren't used to elephants? Yeah, elephants never are used to come in our communities. So why are they coming into town? Over decades, Zambia's elephant population was decimated by poaching.
3:18More recently, their numbers have been growing again, helped by the ban on ivory. And though there are national parks nearby, experts say that recent severe droughts have forced animals to seek food in unusual places, to which they still return. But another key driver is increased development around the town and the falls, which has cut across old feeding grounds and routes used by elephants as they migrate from neighbouring Zimbabwe and Botswana to Zambia. These elephants corridors, the place where these animals can feed from, is getting smaller and smaller. And they keep on building lodges, hotels, they give out land, just like that.
3:58at the end you find to say elephants or these animals do not have enough place or space for them to feed they end up visiting those communities you know causing damages so there is something being built here yeah right inside yeah there is yeah but it'll create another blockage yeah so this place was one of the corridors that elephant would stay or eat or graceful. This is just one aspect of a growing debate about the management of the Victoria Falls. How to balance tourism, development and the need for jobs with the preservation of the unique environment which surrounds one of Africa's most famous attractions.
4:42I'm Isa Jacobson and welcome to Crossing Continents.
4:52that incredible sound you can hear that thunderous sound is the sound of the victoria falls here on the border of zambia and zimbabwe in southern africa by volume it is the largest waterfall in the world from here i can see the top of the falls and the zambesi river flanked by forest driving a massive curtain of water over this rocky precipice, a mile or nearly two kilometers wide, down a hundred meter drop into a churning torrent below. Right now, standing here, I'm struck by the pristine beauty of this place. But there are concerns that all that could change.
5:44Isa Jacobson:It's a winter's day, beautiful blue sky and the spray from high water is blowing towards us and through the spray we can see the silhouette of the knife edge and behind that is the mystery of Mosia Tunia, the Victoria Falls, the smoke that thunders. Larry Norton is a Zimbabwean artist. I meet him on the old bridge which links the two countries, Zambia and Zimbabwe, and provides a stunning view of the falls. This extraordinary, powerful place that's had such spiritual, emotional meaning to every person in Zambia and Zimbabwe. It's a place we all own inside ourselves, and we have to protect it. Larry has been fighting a four-year legal battle taking on the Zimbabwean government and developers to stop the construction of a restaurant on the Zimbabwean side next to the Falls which he argues contravenes a ban on permanent construction in the core of this UNESCO World Heritage Site.
6:53The Zimbabwean authorities reject this. The restaurant has since been built. He's now being countersued for US$2 million for defamation by the restaurant's operators. Larry says in recent months he's also been visited by Zimbabwean security officers. But he's determined to keep on fighting.
7:15Isa Jacobson:You look at what you're looking on there. It's absolutely incredible. And the way things work, we all know, it starts with a small thing and it grows. many of these things, the lease is given to a small structure. It then grows and grows and grows. So our concern is that the precedent will lead to massive development. We've seen it our whole life. The World Heritage Site around the falls is divided into a core area close to the falls and a buffer zone, each with their own restrictions on construction. UNESCO has in recent years expressed real concern about building around the falls on both sides of the border, even saying that overdevelopment could potentially lead to the withdrawal of the falls status as a world heritage site.
8:09Isa Jacobson:If this place ends up with hotels everywhere, buildings, construction, if you look onto the falls and there's millions of people running around on the islands and boats going backwards and forth, it loses what UNESCO referred to the outstanding universal value. And that's an intrinsic thing. It's hard to describe, but it's what you see in front of you. What we respond to in our soul as human beings is wilderness. And how can we not understand this? How can the ministers not understand this? How can the ministers not fight for this? Well, you've got two economies that rely heavily on tourism and there is so much unemployment.
8:51So where is the balance in that?
8:53Isa Jacobson:It's a very good point that you raise. And I'm not saying that we shouldn't develop. Zambia and Zimbabwe critically need development and growth and employment. But let's look after the thing that's going to bring people here. It's just the most incredible, magical place. A Garden of Eden here. You have something of such value. But if you built hotels right up to the lips of the falls, that's gone. and once it's gone, it's gone. Those tourists are not coming and the promises of employment and education that you've made cannot be fulfilled. The key to making this work and providing all of that is in protecting it and that applies to both Zambia and Zimbabwe.
9:36Isa Jacobson:These are sacred sites and I'll fight like hell to look after this because my instincts tell me what's coming.
9:49Currently, around half a million visitors come to the falls each year. For tourists, there's a lot to do here. There's canoeing, river rafting, kayaking, bungee jumping. You can take a helicopter or microlight ride above the falls. And you can also go on safari drives. It draws visitors from around the world. It was absolutely amazing. Totally see why it's one of the seven natural wonders of the world. It's absolutely incredible. You have to experience it. You have to go to them. And we've been to the other two falls as well, Igasu and Niagara. I think this one tops it, the whole experience. This still feels like the Africa we think about.
10:25You know, the bushland and the red mud. Yeah, it's more of the experiences. Is that a selling point? Yeah. Yeah. Would you like to see more accommodation, more hotels? I would say less. I was even a bit, not annoyed, but the noise of the helicopters, I didn't really like that. I think more development will be better. Because people are coming, so we need expansion so that it attracts more people. If we have got these major events, Livingstone being the tourist capital of Zambia, we find that people struggle finding space where to sleep, so we really need a lot of accommodations. Here are my local guys.
11:05From a glance of view, this is what they want to come here to experience. Not much development like the Niagara Falls, where there are buildings all over the place. I think we still have to preserve it as it is. Our grandfathers were here a thousand years ago. They should keep it as it is. Tourists stay on both sides of the border and the Falls Heritage Site is jointly managed by both Zimbabwe and Zambia. On the Zambian side, there's pressure to develop too.
11:33Isa Jacobson:We do know that communities depend on tourism for them to get their jobs, for them to feed their families. to send their kids to school. There's an influx of tourists from Europe who would love to come and enjoy the falls. But this should be done in such a way that we don't destroy the site itself. We don't overdevelop it. So that generations that will come after us will be able to enjoy the view that we are enjoying today.
12:10Namu Chuma is from the local NGO Environment Africa, which promotes sustainability in the region. He meets us at the Dry Manzi picnic site, one of the last spots along the river, open to the public. And where do you see the future? What does the future look like to you?
12:28Isa Jacobson:The future is scary, particularly in terms of the pressure for development around the falls, both Zimbabwe and Zambia. I think our governments should take very strong positions to make sure that developments are taken further away from the core. Then people can just drive to go and see the falls. But I see a lot of pressure over the coming years for developers wanting to get as close as possible to the falls. I see a future where even places like this one where we are standing at some point will be given to a private investor. Put a lodge and then local Zambians will not have access to come and enjoy the beauty of their own country.
13:14For the environment, the wildlife and the tourism industry, there is the question of climate change. Water levels in the Zambezi have declined, but at the moment, after good recent rains, it's flowing fast over the rapids. And there are plans for a joint hydroelectric dam about 30 miles down river. This drive for growth has also led to a new coal-fired power station being built on the Zambian side, not too far from the falls. For Zambia, where youth unemployment is high, growing the tourist industry is crucial. After copper mining and agriculture, it's the biggest sector of the economy. The need to compete with Zimbabwe for tourist dollars is real.
13:53The falls is much more than just a natural wonder. It is one of Zambia's greatest economic assets and a catalyst for sustainable national development. Evans Mubanga is the Permanent Secretary at Zambia's Ministry of Tourism. We meet at a new luxury resort on the Zambezi, built with government money, a few miles upriver from the falls in the heritage site's buffer zone. It reportedly has created 1 ,500 jobs, a compelling argument for development. But its construction did not go down well with UNESCO, nor with environmentalists concerned it was blocking elephant migration corridors. It's a balance of what we want to conserve, but also in terms of economic beneficiation that comes to our people.
14:43and today I'll tell you that Zambia is far much better off than when we were. So whatever we do, we abide by the laws of the country. Yes, we go to UNESCO, there's a lot of consultation, but I think that we are not doing things outside to destroy our very site, not at all. And I think that even the development that has happened here, I would like to see somebody who would say that this is what you've damaged. Yes, there was the element of saying that this is an elephant corridor, but elephants still roam around this very corridor. But the benefit that has come to the economy and to the people around this place who stay very close to the foes is phenomenal.
15:35Because we've spoken to a lot of people, both Zambians and foreign tourists, who say they want to see it pristine. Yes, they want it pristine, but those who are advancing such conversations need to face reality as well, that it's not about just pristineness, but what you do to be able to make sure that the people that live around there benefit. It's a balancing act. So what next? There are parts of the heritage site that are currently earmarked as zones for sustainable development. But he says their focus is also on harnessing the potential of the nearby town of Livingston, which lies just 10 minutes' drive from the falls.
16:19There are so many, of course, iconic hotels and lodges that want to come into here, you know, and say, no, we just want to be closer to the falls. No, I think as government we say, no, we can maintain the falls, but you can be able to build, buy off some of the assets around in town, Because it's very near. And regardless whether you've slept in town or you've slept closer to the foes, you know, the experience is the same. So for me, there is a value to maintain the foes in its pristine nature around those areas. But also, we need to look at now other areas where development can actually go. But without forgetting the communities that really live around here.
17:12Livingston is the tourist capital of Zambia. It's grown to be home to around 200 ,000 people. A few decades ago, it was a centre of manufacturing and textiles. But as its old industries died, tourism has become the lifeblood of the town. It's a tree-lined, bustling place, safe, peaceful and incredibly friendly. But as it's expanded into the surrounding countryside, there's a growing recognition that people will have to develop a new relationship with the wildlife on their doorstep. Me, I came here in 1994, when I was almost 10 years old. This area, it was a bush. There were no people here when we came in 1994.
17:56Hamakoa Himulonga is a community-based volunteer working with the Zambian Department of National Parks and Wildlife. I meet him in Dambwa, a neighbourhood of Livingston that has grown right up to the edge of the national park. That time we had no, the elephant were not coming in. Then even these monkeys which are troubling us, they were not coming in. It's just a few years ago, I would say maybe two or three years ago, that's when elephants started coming in the communities. Teresa Mishiba lives nearby. She's the coordinator of the Livingston Victoria Falls International Volunteer Program. which collaborates with the park's department.
18:36That fence, that's demarcation between the community and the national park. Wow, it doesn't look like much protection at all. Yeah, the fence is too light for the elephants. You can see wire mesh in between wooden poles, stretching into the distance with the park on one side and houses on the other. and there is an entire community just mere metres away from this fence. They had six years today that came in this community. So you find that each household has mango trees. Then when elephants start coming looking for food, they always pluck big branches. Something that's bringing elephants in the community, we have poor waste management.
19:21So in the past people just dump anyhow. Then you find that elephants will be coming to the same place wanting the same food. But at least now people are slowly changing the mindset that dumping waste in places where it's supposed to be dumped. When elephants do come, people often shout, bang pots, throw stones or little fireworks to get them to leave, which can be counterproductive. Elephants have great hearing and smell, but poor eyesight, so they can be easily startled by all this commotion. And a scared, panicked elephant can be dangerous. So we tell them not to throw stones to the animals.
19:58If they start chasing them, it's when they become vicious. Maureen lives just a couple of meters from the fence with her young family. You're living very, very, very close to the national park. It must be quite scary. So she's saying that they just stay in the house when elephants come. Do you feel like you can live with the elephants in future?
20:28So she's saying elephant problems are not something that's ending anytime soon. So if they can have anywhere to go, they would rather relocate to another safe place. You'd rather move than stay here?
20:44Some in the community would like the elephants to be gone, whatever it takes. But Zambia, unlike other countries in the region, says no to culling elephants. There are people seeking other solutions and trying to ease tensions. Among them, Chamu. On his night patrol, Chamu has a special job. He tries to coax elephants away from hostile areas. He shows that gentleness and understanding really can work. Mostly, you know, we just talk to them in a gentle voice. Yeah, if they don't move in a gentle voice, then our engine rave. We just rave a little bit of the vehicle.
21:27There's some elephants. There's some elephants. Oh, wow. So one is there. So there are houses behind us. There are buildings to the left of us. And there's an elephant right here. Right here, feeding in the grass. It's only a few meters away from us. and on our right, the elephants are really only a metre or two away. Leaning out the window, Chamu the elephant whisperer works his magic. Come on guys, it's time to go. It's time to go.
22:09There you go. There you go, keep moving guys. There you go. There you go. No, no, no, no, hey. One shows a little irritation and shakes his head at being asked to leave. Chamu gives him some room. All right, there's a little space for you. You can cross. And then, incredibly, these massive animals respond to his words and slowly trundle across the road. He's guiding them away from a neighbourhood called Cold Storage, where locals are known to harass the animals. So the reason why I'm pushing them on the other side, it's because when they just go to Cold Storage, it won't be good for them. That's amazing, they're actually moving off.
23:08Yeah, so they're going round like that behind these buildings. Are they heading towards the park? Yeah. I've seen elephants in the bush, but I've never seen them in an urban environment before. And so to see them tonight like that, just standing on the side of the road, is just surreal. The job is done, for now. Coexistence is the mantra. It can be a hard sell, but there are some novel ways to get people on board.
23:48We're on a riverboat on the Zambezi, but this is a cruise with a difference. The passengers are all from communities affected by elephants. It's an outing few can afford, so it's laid on for free. The idea is to show people the wonders of being in nature and use it as an opportunity to change their minds about living with wildlife.
24:17Stanley in Nyakichanda is one of the organisers. He runs a community business unit set up by the Conservation and Tourism Society, or CATS. Gone are the days when we had a park that had a game reserve, where when there's no food in the park, the animals can go and cushion their feeding on the reserve. But all the reserve land has now been built, there are houses there. Most of them, actually, their houses are built along the corridors. Those corridors have been used by these elephants, time and memorial, you know. So they need to understand that they are in the conflict zone, and then they need to know how to coexist with these animals.
24:55I'm Caroline, and this is my first time on the river. I'm happy, and it's so exciting. I'm enjoying it. It's very, very nice, like, seeing some animals, like hippos and the crocodiles, and even to learn something about how we should be living with the animals, especially the elephants which are coming into our homes, staying away from them, like not chasing them, because they are so scary, but they are friendly as well. So I have to stay away from them. A key message is that there are different economic opportunities for locals that coexistence can bring. They have projects to help people raise livestock or grow crops that elephants don't eat.
Read the full transcript
25:41One community even started doing night-time urban safaris for tourists. So the only way we can stop the fighting is getting them to see the benefit of the tourism and the beauty, you know, wildlife. I mean, it's just nice to watch, not to fight. They also work with local youths in these conflict zones to provide training so that they can earn money from tourism and see wildlife as a benefit, not a curse. I was chasing elephants. Myself, I was chasing elephants. I would say, me, I didn't like elephants. Each time they come out from the national park, I'll be the first one to pick a stone and throw at them.
26:28Then we chase them, they chase us. We chase them, they chase us. So it was like a game. We were just like playing because we had nothing to do at home. And how many of you were in a group doing that? We were 30, 40. Wow.
26:51A lot of youths in our community, they just stay at home doing nothing. It was here in Livingstone or in Zambia to just find a job. It's hard. But through cats, Gift got training and is now a community guide. He works with Chamu, the elephant whisperer, and they take us into the national park, home to giraffe, hippos, elephants and white rhinos. He's come to love the wildlife here, even the elephants, which we finally find in their natural habitat, by the banks of the Zambezi.
27:29So you can see how the ears are moving. They are flapping. So it's just like cooling its body, the temperature. Because if they were not happy, the time that we approached, they can even shake their head to warn us. But they're in a happy zone, so they are OK now. To preserve this place, people must feel that they have a stake in it. The catch is to make sure that the jobs and development locals want do not ruin what makes the Victoria Falls attractive to so many. Change seems inevitable, but both Gift and Chamu hope people will find a way to share this special land. People will get to learn and they will understand the animals.
28:21They will change. My prayer always is these animals, they can just live freely. In the next, maybe not even ten years, maybe in the next five years, you know, people's mindset will definitely be going to change yeah
28:48Christmas 1988 a plane takes off from Heathrow Airport 38 minutes later everyone on board is dead A Libyan man, Abdul Bassett al-Megrahi, is convicted of murdering 270 people. But that's not the end of the story. Almost four decades on, fresh evidence and a new trial. I'm Miles Bonner. In this podcast, I'm delving into a world of extremist groups, mysterious intelligence agents and global politics. From Radio 4, this is Intrigue, Lockerbie. Listen first on BBC Sounds.
29:33Lives Less Ordinary is bringing you a special series of extraordinary love stories from all around the world. In India, love at first sight feels more psychotic than arranged marriage. Love stories that break all the rules. We came into our relationship with a lot of complicated pieces. Stories that show that sometimes love is all you need. Lives Less Ordinary love stories from the BBC World Service. Listen now. Search for Lives Less Ordinary wherever you get your BBC podcasts.
From the publisher
The Victoria Falls on the border of Zambia and Zimbabwe is one of the natural wonders of the world. It's also one of Africa's great tourist attractions. As both countries seek to grow the tourism economy, there’s been a push to develop land around the Falls. But as Isa Jacobson reports from Zambia, it's led to fears for the preservation of the World Heritage Site, and warnings that the loss of land will exacerbate a deadly conflict between local people and wildlife.
Presenter: Isa Jacobson Producer: Alex Last Sound Mix: Neil Churchill Production Co-ordinator: Gemma Ashman Series Editor: Penny Murphy
