147. David Millar: The Christmas special (sort of)

0:00So fun pub quiz fact. The processor in the Hammerhead Karoo bike computer is about a thousand times faster than the one that put man on the moon. And it also has 64 gigs of storage to store global maps and ride data, which is literally a million times more than the Apollo 11 guidance computer had. And yet it's smaller than a bar of soap and weighs just 118 grams, slightly less than the Apollo system, which I think was 29.5 kilos. To be fair, it took eight days to get to the moon and back, as it's about 380 ,000 kilometres, which is only slightly longer than most Audaxes, and the crew is good for up to 35 hours.

0:39But I still reckon Neil and Buzz's minds would have been blown by the crew's detailed but simple mapping. It's all free to download, it's available offline, and it includes base maps, heat maps, popular routes, topography, and even the surface you're riding on. the Karoo can flag up upcoming gravel sections as part of its turn-by-turn navigation. It also does loads more besides. I mean, I don't know if Apollo 11 ran Spotify or could connect to Bluetooth headphones. So check out our full review of the Hammerhead Karoo at cyclist.co.uk and see why we gave it our Cyclist Recommended Award. Then head over to hammerhead.io and use the code cyclist to get a free heart rate strap with every Karoo purchase.

1:21just be sure to add the strap to your cart then apply the code at checkout next year is the 110th anniversary of the battle of the somme so to commemorate our heroes of yesterday and fundraise for the armed forces community today help for heroes will take on a special four-day 250 mile route across belgium and northern france via the poignant scenery of the somme taking place between the 23rd and the 28th of June 2026, the big battlefield bike ride winds its way from Ypres to Amiens. Along the way, you'll visit historical First World War sites, hear stories of the courageous soldiers who fought for our freedom and have the opportunity to participate in the last post ceremony at Menengate.

2:03Wrap up with a ceremony at Europe's largest Commonwealth memorial in Thiepval before receiving your medal at the end of ride dinner. This is more than a ride, it's a journey of remembrance, camaraderie and a chance to support the veterans and their families to live better. Visit helpforheroes.org.uk to find out more about the big battlefield bike ride 2026. Help for Heroes is registered with the fundraising regulator.

2:33Welcome back to the Cyclist Magazine podcast. I am your host James Spender and joining me down his wires, down his many ISDN line wires, is Mr. Will Strixon. Will, how are you doing? I'm very good. It's Christmas, James. It is Christmas, Will. Today is Christmas, officially Christmas. Merry Christmas. Have you wrapped all your presents? What did you get? All sorts of stuff. Yeah? Okay. Anything really good? Yeah, loads. Okay, nice. As anyone will realize, we're doing some funny jokes because today obviously isn't Christmas for us, really. Although it's going out on Christmas Day because Christmas Day is a thursday and the podcast comes out on a thursday actually no you know what james i hope no one is listening to this on christmas day well apparently an alarming number of people do their tax returns on christmas day and i think there's some stats about like a third of all men spend at least an hour in the shed something like that um i did make that up but that is there's that there is an alarming stat about men in sheds um on christmas day so anyway men in sheds listening to the cyclist magazine podcast doing their tax returns imagine that what a beautiful scene that would be for a Christmas card.

3:38Maybe we can get those made next year. But look, I would like just to ask you, Will, about a post that you put up on Instagram vis-a-vis Ineos' team kit, which garnered lots of attention. It's definitely not clickbait. As you rightly called, it's engagement content. And it was, what do you think of Ineos' kit? So briefly explain said kit. And then I'd like just to read you one or two answers from Instagram because I found them quite funny. Yeah, and it definitely was bait for anyone who has seen it. But it worked. It wasn't clickbait, but it was bait. And everyone fell for it, which was really nice.

4:14But I actually do think it's a pretty good kit. It's orange at the top, as it should be. It's a slightly different kind of orange to what Ineos have used before. White in the middle, probably for the Total Energy sponsor. The shorts are very light, I would describe as ashy grey, which people think are white, but they also think they're... I mean, you could call it an off-white, really. It's what white shorts end up looking like. But people, you know what I don't get, James? People like white when it's like World Champions kit. When Pikachu gets the white shorts out, it's like, whoa, so cool. They do.

4:48And that's one of the most enduring images etched into my mind is the undercarriage of Tony Martin having worn his white skin suit. Did he win the time trial again? He was riding as a defending champion, hence the white skin suit, and he had blood underneath from the sandpaper that he put in a saddle for extra grip. So there you go. There's an image. It's definitely an image. Yeah. But I'd just like to share with you some feedback. And the first is from, I'm not going to use people's real names, but luckily on Instagram, people tend to use kind of monikers, which is great. And she's a lovely woman moniker.

5:23She is lovely. And also, retrospectively, having rewatched a bit of Friends recently, one of the funniest. Anyway. Wilson, probably shouldn't admit that. Wilson 48 forever a man who I guess identifies with 48 as being his best time and if anyone says Wilson happy 65th birthday he says no no no no I still feel 48 inside he says Marlboro McLaren vibes which is a reference to the Formula 1 car which I like I like that car and I think you're alright there Wilson and then you get quite a lot of no it's not good guy called MNE Mark it's awful some sick emojis a bit harsh let's see how it handles a wet race yep well done get active roads and then the uh a few little gifts and then my favorite it's appalling there is no place for it in the peloton no place for white shorts and that's from power goose um which you can't argue with power goose you can't argue with a name like that not just any goose a very powerful goose cycling images says they are gray As you said, Will, they're not white.

6:29And then somebody else says, is that in the sense they call white horses grey? Well, I don't think they call them grey. I think they call them greys. But anyway, over to you on Facebook, because I think you've got a few corkers there. Yeah, my favourite Facebook one was from Phil, who said they'll look like toddler that have shat themselves during the classics. Nice. I find that funny because of the image of a toddler riding Paris-Roubaix. Yeah. I think maybe we should have a toddler's version. Yeah, a really young kind of like L 'Avenir sort of styling. Yeah. Sandy said, save me a fortune. I'll be cycling my underpants from now on.

7:07Hooray, go Sandy. And my favourite's from John. I like it. I'd not wear white shorts. I'm a fat old bastard and black is more slimming. Yes, John. I think we can all get behind that. I admire that honesty. Fair play. So there you go. Not sure if they'll be shifting that many replicates, but cycling teams don't really care. but they are going to stand out in the peloton. And as you said, Will, there's a lovely sort of analogousness, if that is even a word to the kit, which they've yet to point out, but maybe you could say it now and anyone from the marketing team can steal it if they hear it. Yeah, anyone that's subscribed to our newsletter, which you should actually, will have read this in Ewan's The Broom Wagon Weekly Monday Pro Cycling newsletter.

7:48But I, and I actually put that in, I couldn't take the credit away from Ewan on that one, that I really thought that they were going to go with the and really stick it that it's an ash-coloured short or whatever season is. And the top being a very fiery orange, you've got Phoenix rising from the ashes. Ineos were not as good. Now back. About to be great. Vokalan got on. Probably only. Whoa. Whoa. Yeah, no, there you go. It would have written itself. Yeah. So yeah, anyone from Ineos, feel free to, if you use that though, give Will as name. slip him a tenner or something. Yes, please. Right, but should we move on?

8:25Should we say, should we introduce our guest? You probably read it in the title of the podcast, but I'll elaborate on that theme because I think everyone knows David Miller, certainly from the UK side of things. He has been the voice of the Tour de France along with Ned Bolting, Gary Imlach, Peter Kernok. David was obviously also a decorated, highly seasoned pro with a bit of a past. He started off, he turned pro in 97, right? and he rode for Confidus until 2004. And then he served a two-year ban for using performance-enhancing substances. Served that, was stripped of a few titles. And we don't talk about that.

9:01And I'm just going to say, we don't talk about that because we feel it's been done to death in a way. And there is an amazing book that David wrote called Riding Through the Dark, which is all about that. And I do think if we asked David about it, he'd be happy to chat about it. But yeah, just kind of moved on from that, really. But David has loads more interesting stuff to say because not only did he serve that band, he came back 2006. 2008, he was racing for Garmin Sharp. And over his career, he won four Tour de France stages and five Belta stages. British National Road champ and Time Trial champ.

9:37And he was also the first British rider to wear the leader's jersey in all three Grand Tours, which great bit of trivia there for you. And Will, can you name the other two? Is it Mark Cavendish and Chris Froome? It is Mark Havnish and Chris Froome. Well done. Okay, good for you. Hopefully, you've got Will on your team for the cycling quiz round. But in more recent years, along with the commentary, David started his own sort of fashion label, Chapter 3, which did collabs with Brompton, with Factor Bikes, and also its own clothing and kit, most recently, Chapter 3 Shoes. That's had some ups and downs, and we talk about that.

10:16And in a way, kind of segued, or at least got him in the orbit of a chap called Rob Jatelis, who, as David said, makes carbon fiber bikes, made lots of bikes that David raced on. And David now works for Rob's brand, which is Factor, as the brand director. He's been doing that since January. So he's been instrumental in the launch of the Factor 1. And then David also has Never Strays Far, his own vastly superior, much slicker, funnier, more insightful podcast than this. which, strangely enough, is about cycling, which he presents with Ned and Lizzie Digan and Pete Canuck. And they will be back, I think, in the new year and also be hopefully covering the Tour de France in a more kind of gonzo capacity.

11:02Something else we chat to David about. Yeah, I mean, I really enjoyed it. It was really good. I admire the guy's honesty as much as his just general wit. He's a smart, funny guy, and I think you guys will really enjoy the interview because of that. But also, yeah, he's lived a life. He's got a lot to say about cycling and the industry. And by the way, if we reference Fran, we don't really explain that. Fran Miller is David's sister and is the CEO of RAFA, which is where some of that chat at the end comes from. So without further ado, I've been speaking too much already. Here is David Miller.

11:38I thought I'd do something incredibly earnest to kick off this interview. you you won't remember but i interviewed you in 2018 in taiwan just before the taiwan kom which i'd also like to talk to you about quickly we grabbed a couple of portraits in the lobby you very kindly bought me and a photographer a drink and i asked you a series of questions and this was the first one so i'm going to go back to it i've even got the actual magazine from back in the day in my hand and this is how bad a journalist i was and hopefully i've improved since since retiring from racing you started the clothing brand with chapter three had bike collaborations with factor and brompton and taken up commentating how's it all going if there's not a more earnest kind of question to ask and to lead with i don't know what it is but i don't know maybe that's a good place to start because you know for one the factor thing is is going strong and you're now a brand leader brand director that's the one yeah so yeah so where are you at with where are out with Factor at the moment?

12:40Well, I was gonna, I can answer that because I've lost my commentary job. I closed down chapter three, so it's gone well. Um, but fortunately Factor is still standing and actually going really well. Now, I mean, it's, it's good. It's really good. I'm in a, I'm in a good place. It's seven years since then that's nuts. So much has happened, but yeah, I mean, I think actually now that I can look back kind of over the last 10 years, if you like, Like since, if I go back to 2018, I was still in the throes of kind of that post-pro cyclist life, you know, scrambling around trying to figure out what to do.

13:19And since then, it's taken me actually until last year and letting Chapter 3 go and Rob Jatilis from Factor hiring me to kind of rediscover my calling, if you like. Because I love what I do at Factor. So I effectively run all their marketing, the whole marketing team, the brand strategy, the creative team, all the racing sponsorships. And what I didn't realize was that when I closed out chapter three, I was like, well, that was a waste of nine years of my life. But actually it ended up being a fantastic sort of school of hard knocks on business and that sort of entrepreneurial startup life, which gave me this huge toolkit, which I wasn't even aware of until I came into Factor and was allowed to put it all to use.

14:08So yeah, it's been a really interesting place, James, because I think if I was to go back and meet me in that lobby, I'd say it's not going to get easier for a while, but it's all going to end up okay. 2025, things are all good, but it was a pretty rollercoaster few years to get to here, that's for sure. Yeah. And I think, you know, a lot of people will have seen what happened at the beginning of the year and over the summer with ITV Tour de France. I know you'll have talked about that probably to its death, but just for now you've had a bit of time to take stock and look back on that. How does that look in your rear view mirror?

14:48and we had Ned on the podcast not so long ago and he said one of the most difficult things even now was the way in which the news broke to you guys which was you just didn't even know and you had mates saying, hey, shit, really sorry about this guys. I've just seen this on social media and you're like, what? Excuse me? Yeah. Yeah, that was... I mean, I feel incredibly privileged to have got to have done that. To have stepped out of pro cycling and straight into commentary. it was never a trajectory I saw myself upon. Number one, because that gig didn't exist. It was my serendipity that ITV had decided to change the commentary team.

15:30And fortuitous timing that I ended my career when I did, that I landed in the role with Ned. And it was an amazing experience because I genuinely never thought it'd be something I'd do. I never thought I'd work in TV and never thought I'd be a commentator. And to go into it and watch, but have to get paid to watch bike races, which was, I wouldn't have done it, I don't think, in that first couple of years out. I think I needed distance. So it was an amazing halfway house to go and watch these bike races and be genuinely on the other side of the barriers in a world that I actually had no comprehension of.

16:08As a pro racer, you just have no, you don't even give it any consideration about what goes on, there's own technique, what the people in the media are doing, what that world's like. So it was an amazing experience. And then the friendship I formed with Ned and Pete, again, those were friendships that wouldn't have existed without that job. And they're two of the strongest friendships I have now in my life. So I really considered that to have been one of the great privileges of my life to get to do that for the duration that I got. And I was perhaps a little bit lucky that it's come to an end at a point in my life where I've actually moved into something else and I'm entering kind of another phase of my life where it would have been different if I'm honest now with my role at Factor would have been difficult to fit it in because I'm so busy and this is an all-encompassing full-time job to have got the the time away in parentes to kind of go and commentate wouldn't have really been an option i don't think i think i'd have had to have made the decision at some point that perhaps it got to the end of the road yet it still i mean i think it was wonderful it genuinely was wonderful and i look back at it with and even when it's only a few months out since the tour of france ending with rose tinted glasses it was it was a wonderful experience and how does it feel It was quite a big era for cycling, obviously mostly post-Team Sky, and you've got Pogacic coming through.

17:36You commentated on Cavendish breaking the record. How does it feel to have your voice connected with that, the coverage that goes on and gets replayed over and over again? I think I was speechless when Cavendish won. I genuinely couldn't talk. I was just genuinely speechless, which isn't very good for a commentator. But Ned and I discussed that we were blessed with a golden era. If we look back to the Team Sky era, to the Armstrong era, even to Indurain, the racing wasn't that exciting. I mean, I think to have got to have witnessed the kind of the ascension of Pogaccia, to see Mathieu van der Poel, to see Wout van Aert, to see these battles.

18:19And I think it's been amazing. Watch, as you say, watch Cavendish, see G win. I think it's pretty much our first Tour de France was when Froome ran up Mont Ventoux. You know, it was like, well, I was like, after I was like, Ned, that's it. You're kind of cemented in history now in your first Tour de France. You commentated on Froome Dog running up Mont Ventoux. So, yeah, and I think, again, that goes back to that privilege bit and that good fortune that we got nearer, which I think is perhaps indicative of modern cycling. Modern cycling is very different to what it was in the past. It's an absolute joy to be a spectator.

18:55It's a joy to be a commentator in any part of the media. Because I'm definitely, I'm in that side of the argument where I think we've got an absolute, it's a joy to watch Pogaccia. I'm not always making the races boring. I think to get to witness somebody like that, it's not just generational. It's probably once every kind of century you get to see an athlete do what Pogaccia's doing. And I think that's just, I'm in awe of it. I think it's fantastic. So yeah, it was good. It was better than good. We got the best of it, there's no doubt. Who do you think looked a little bit like Pogaccio when you were racing that kind of like made you feel like, okay, we're witnessing somebody special for this generation?

19:40Oh, that's a really good question. It's so weird, isn't it? Because it didn't exist. It genuinely didn't exist to have riders is that we're just that exceptional constantly. And the exploits just get bigger and bigger. You know, we might see a rider perform one exploit and it'd be amazing, but they'd never back it up. To watch this happening, not just with Pogaccia, but with Van der Poel. And then seeing Wout van Aert doing his, Wout van Aert as the underdog, for God's sake. That's mad. And then Remco Evanepoel, of course. I don't know. I don't think this is unheralded to have a generation like this.

20:21So we're just spoiled for choice. And in my generation, it didn't really exist. You'd have flashes in the pan, but that's what they'd be, flashes, and then on to the next flash. So it's very different, the sport, to what it was in the past. And I go as far as saying incomparable. It can't really come up with any comparison to what's going on now. And do you have plans for Never Stray's Far next year? I know that there was sort of a tease that you would continue with a Tour de France thing in some way. Obviously, hard to pin that down a year in advance with ITV going on and, you know, Factor. What are your plans?

21:00Can you say anything about your plans? Is it a secret? Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, no, definitely. I mean, Ned's booking hotels. So in his blind optimism. But I think it's, no, no, I think it will happen. I think we're out there now, we're talking to people. The idea is that Ned, Lizzie and I will be on the road and hopefully Pete as well and going around and doing a podcast from the roadside, doing video kind of within that gray area, if you like, of not actually filming the race or the road, the kind of the ASO rules. But being out there, being present, kind of going on a road trip around France as kind of on the periphery of the Tour de France.

21:44and doing, kind of commentating on the race in a different way. And I think it's going to happen in one form or another. So yeah, I mean, Ned is very much working really hard at that. And we've kind of done the sort of the groundwork for it. Now we've got to get out there and find the funding to make it happen. But yeah, the goal is that we will be at the Tour de France next year doing our thing in a different way, yet present, to allowing people to follow the race, be part of it, and a mixture of kind of the racing, but also the periphery of the Tour de France, which is, I think, as important as the race itself.

22:22So is that right then? You can't film and broadcast the road? As far as I know, yeah. That's crazy. Yeah, it's wild. I mean, it's full lockdown. The AISO are pretty much kind of draconian when it comes to the rights, which is fair enough. yeah so it means we're kind of there but not there if you like fans who are talking about the race which I think is amazing because I think that's amazing and arguably more interesting particularly more interesting than 60-70 % of stages anyway where for a lot of the average fans that tune in for the bigger races like the Tour they're not looking so much for that chess play they want to see some explosive moments as well so I think that's the joy of the Tour is the mentalness, the melee around it, those fans with flares Alpe d 'Huez and guys running along in mankinis.

23:13And that's sort of getting in the thick of it, which I feel like you guys did with ITV's coverage, despite the fact it was also quite prosaic coverage too, like any sporting event. There's the camera. Here are the different angles. You're talking about what's going on. But then you had these brilliant little montages of you guys, you know, getting out in your Bromptons and riding up the Vontu or something. Or I think there was one year where you did a really good video of you guys just busting around in your car together. kind of like yeah just like ned and david do and that's there's a one yeah there's a wonderful kind of like humanness to that which i really yeah i really hope continues yeah i mean i think that's i think you've you've nailed it that's for us i mean the the podcast was always for as an antidote to the commentary in the sense that we were when we're commentating we would do our best to be very professional and focus on the race and there's a lot of things you can't go off on tangents You can't sort of have, I mean, we wouldn't talk about local cheeses and things like that.

24:15We try not to. We know that Chateau's new geography and everything is very important, and we can integrate that where we could. But the podcast allowed us to just go and kind of wax lyrical about what was going on, opinions of racing, but also where we are and the things that are going on. And I think that was one of the things that the ITV, the ITV production was so good at. they understood that the vast majority of the people watching the Tour de France, the race was almost a bit part. It was the whole sort of smorgasbord of the Tour de France is what people liked. And I remember actually our first year commentating, Ned and I were adamant on being, we'll only talk about the racing.

24:54And then we were asked by the director, you've got to talk more about the chateaus. You've got to talk more because that's what people, they enjoy that. And we're like, oh, okay. Yeah, maybe you're right. So we sort of shifted and started to understand that it's as much. And if you watch the France television broadcast, it's nuts. Because where you see it on the international feed, which we get, and they'll do the shots of the chateau, and they'll kind of hover on it. If we would have the French feed on our screens as well, and we could see it, it would go on for three, four times longer. And they have a member of the French production who sits there and who's, we just call him history man.

25:33His whole job at the Tour de France was they'd switch over to him and then they'd have extra footage. They'd gone before the race. They'd have footage from inside those chateaus and there'd be a whole segment on that piece because they understood even for the French television audience, the majority were watching to learn more about France, that it was as much a travel show as it was a bike race. And so you're right. And I think that's something that Ned and I always relished and loved was going and visiting cathedrals and going on, kind of finding out what was going on in the local town where we were, because that's what brought it to life to us.

26:09And it was one of the reasons Ned was like, we could never commentate. During COVID, we did two years in Maidstone. And the first year, I was like, Ned, this is the dream. We can just stay in a hotel and just Brompton to the studio, do our thing, Brompton back. But after like two weeks, I was like, this is miserable. This is not the Tour de France. We need to be on the road, kind of like immersed in it, the crazy. So I think with the podcast next year, we hope to be able to kind of amalgamate the two and have pretty much carte blanche on creating that bike race travel show. Amazing. I mean, it's always struck me with cycling, unlike any other sport.

26:44It's so rooted in the place. You know, you could take a football stadium and bar the fans, you could put that in any country and you wouldn't know where it is. And yeah, sure, the TV production can bring some like local colour, but realistically, it just is contained and so it goes on even you know golf is probably about as big as it gets and for a kind of space and then you go into cycling and cycling so much about the place and it has its culture which is rooted to the place and different races have their different flavors because of where they are i just wonder how much of that you actually get when you're racing and then how much of that is a kind of surprise to you when you're in the commentary box you know on the other side of that fence and there's a brilliant quote from jens voigt i think i remember when he retired it's like oh i now realize that you know i always thought that cycling on in the peloton we were looking at the animals you know the fans everything else now i realize we were in the zoo now i'm commentating we were the animals yeah i mean yeah it's it's strange when in the race often you're kind of in that bubble you know it's is pretty focused environment but there are times i mean i remember the gyro it was the first time i've been to the dolomites and it was just breathtaking you're in the peloton and you're like what is this this is just simply remarkable and then in france i used to always be amazed at even though i knew france so well there'd be moments where you'd be like wow this is really wild that this exists and i had no idea it exists and same in asturias and the vueltor often if you're on the groupetto and you're on not an absolute hanging on by your fingernails kind of day you could appreciate it and you'd find yourself and especially in the mountains you could just soak it up and understand this is pretty magical actually we've got closed roads we're out here i'm not bleeding through my eyes right now i can just kind of absorb this and soak it out but yeah it's it's wild and i think one of the things i used to love because obviously i in 97, so it's so long ago.

28:48And you used to stay in like weird local hotels and things. Now it's all quite generic. You kind of have all the hotels are pretty similar. It doesn't matter where you go on the Tour de France or the Vente Espagne or the Giro d 'Italia. You're not getting that sort of parochial feel of where you are. And I do kind of relish the fact that I got for the first half of my career, get to experience places and they'd be super quirky. There was no internet. You'd have to kind of, we'd go out for a walk in the village afterwards. You're staying in these weird little hotels. And whereas now I do notice that everything's become quite gentrified and you could go through a whole three week stage race and never really noticed that you've changed town or village because you're always staying in another cookie cut hotel.

29:37But I think that's the world at large to be fair that's just me being romantic perhaps because at the time they were just like crappy hotels well yeah that's that's it isn't it at the time they're crappy hotels you look back with this kind of nostalgia but yeah you definitely crossed over with those the earlier more romantic spit and sawdust part of cycling to the point where i mean you did a very kind of what would seem mental now but kind of classic move you're just about is this right you were just about to go off to art college and then you went, you know what, I'm not going to do that. I'm going to go to France and join a small club and just start racing.

30:13And that just blows my mind, being a young man going to another country to do something that the chances of breaking through are pretty small, but also try to explain that to your mates or your parents. They're like, excuse me, what now? And then for someone, I guess where you'd actually end up when you get off that train, you might put your bags down and go, ah, have I made the right decision here? I did that after the first week there. I remember going out to a phone box and calling up Mike Taylor, who was my mentor in the north of England, saying, I think I've made a terrible mistake. This is what was I thinking.

30:48But I mean, I had an advantage. I mean, that was 1995 when I left for France. So I'd lived in Hong Kong. So I'd moved back to, I'd left Hong Kong where I'd be, spent my adolescence, gone to school. and I came back to England to go to art college. So I finished my A-levels and I was going to go to art college. Came back and started racing that summer again because I'd only raced in my school holidays up to that point. So I'd fly back from Hong Kong on my school holidays to visit my mum. She knew I'd gone into cycling. I had no friends, didn't know anybody in England. So she just joined me into a local cycling club to give me something to do.

31:21So I didn't just like mine myself away at home. And I raced and just loved it. And it was the thing where I've often said, I remember you say this a lot when I was younger. I did so many different, I tried so many different things when I was young. So many different sports, so many different just interests. And cycling was the one thing I got into in amnesia. I realized, oh, I think this is the one that I love and I'm really good at. And I always considered that to be one of the greatest gifts that I stumbled across something that I loved and I was good at. So when I left school and went back to England to go to art college, didn't know anybody there.

31:59England may as well have been a foreign country for me. So making the decision to say, I'm going to go to France and try and be a pro. I mean, it was bonkers because it was 1995. There was no track record. Everyone told me you won't make it. It's because the failure rate was pretty much 99%. But I thought, well, if they can do it over there, why can't we do it? They would say, oh, you have to wait till you're 20 or something to go across there. I was like, well, 18-year-old French and Belgian, Italian, Spanish kids can somehow do it. Why can't we do it? And I went across there and I, my mother, although I did have to defer my place at art college by a year.

32:33So I kind of said to my mom, I'd like to give this a go. She said, okay, we'll write to art college, see if I defer your place. And I said, if I don't do any year, I'll go back to art college. And so that was a deal. She said, well, you got to get a job. So I went and got a job at Tesco's stacking shelves that winter and kind of, and scrabbled around trying to get a place. And actually it was Paul Sherwin, whose shoes I ended up filling in commentary, who got me the place on a French team at the death, kind of because no one would take me. So I was just this unknown kid. And so I went across in February and didn't speak a word of French and was on this mission to prove everybody wrong more than anything else, I think.

33:10And within three or four months, I had five teams wanting to sign me. So it's just, I was so determined. I remember that I was not going to not do it. And I was so dedicated. I didn't go back, I didn't see any of my friends for 18 months from when I left school in Hong Kong to going back there. It was just this absolute mission I went on to do this. And it was also, I figured, I don't want to go to art college. I don't want to do, this is what I want to do. This is my future. This is, I got to do this. And so, yeah, there was a lot going on there in my young 18 year old mind. But I had the advantage of coming from Hong Kong.

33:48I wasn't just going to go back across the channel and go back home. I didn't really have a home to go back to. Hong Kong was my home. So I was already very far away. So it was more in that kind of mindset of the Aussies and the Americans who kind of came across and were fully invested. There wasn't the kind of, you couldn't bail out once you were in there, which was a great advantage, which does kind of mean that I can't really compare myself to the other British kids at the time because I didn't have a parachute per se. I was just, I was in, I was doing it. but it was it was mad when you when i look back it was um i can't believe i did it now looking back adolescence we did crazy things i mean i promised i promised we'll at the top of this before we came on that i wouldn't make this some trip down memory lane because we've also got some other more present stuff to talk about but one of the things that kind of blows my mind is is that you're so young and then you create this kind of like mini fury around yourself by winning bunch of races and then not only did you sign pro but you sign with sir guimard who is a guy who's he's at cofidus but he's with renault winning four tours de france with hino kind of discovering nurturing le monde and then he also wins a couple of tours with um with finion like that's like an alex ferguson of his day and he's knocking on your door and saying can you come and sign for us like that's a an amazing head trip moment right can you pinch yourself is this real that i mean that that because i had roger leger barque maddio kind of a chabury from benesto they all got in touch but sir guimard came to the where i live to the north of france and took me out to lunch and at that lunch i had alan bondu there who a former pro who was a friend of sherwin who actually got me into teams translating a lot for me because i still didn't speak French very well.

35:44And Cyril Guimard at that lunch mapped out the next five years of my career that it was 96 when we met for that lunch. And he said, you'll do your first Tour de France in 2000 when you're 23. And we'll build you up. He wanted to keep me amateur for another year. But yeah, and I'd, because in Hong Kong, I'd read, there weren't so many books back then of cycling as there is now, but I knew all about Guimard. I'd read about him and he was, as you said at the time he was still the direct sportif with the biggest hit rate of success so kind of signing the air pros and telling them to tour de france winners and that's how he treated me and i remember just thinking this is this is surreal i'm sitting here with sirubi mad in a small restaurant from north of france and he's telling me when my first tour de france will be and i was just a freshly turned 19 year old kid from hong kong so yeah sirubi mad was that was amazing.

36:34It was, yeah, surreal. And that, the whole experience, I mean, in hindsight, it probably wasn't the best team for me to go to, but hindsight's 2020. But I went for Guimard, and then Guimard was only there for like a year and a half, and then he moved on. But c 'est la vie. But he was ultimately right in as much as your first tour was 2000. And pretty bloody special because you've been in the prologue. Yeah. I'd just relegise him for a couple of days. So yeah, a soothsayer as well. Yeah, he was so much bang on. I mean, he had it all. And you know, the thing is with Gimard, he was still, this was the 1990s and it was the absolute, the nadir, let's say, of EPO and doping.

37:16And Gimard was still very much in the 1980s. He was not at all, he was still mapping my career out like somebody from the 1970s, 80s, early 90s. and and you know what and he said to me don't go near any sort of abstract wise he says you you've got to let yourself mature physically naturally and the earliest you should be doing the tour of france is when you're 23 i mean that's how different the sport was back then because they didn't expect they didn't expect me to start peaking out till i was 26 27 that was the kind of that was the trajectory and that was i was just turned 19 when he was telling me all this that You'll do your first tour at 23, but they wouldn't expect me getting to kind of where they hoped me to get to until I was 26, 27.

38:02And it was a different era. And yeah, that would be frowned upon. That was just incomprehensible in the modern age. But it was a different time. So do you think if it was, you know, 20, 30 years later when you were moving back from Hong Kong, wanting to make it as a pro, do you think you would have still been able to make it through with that determination? Or do you think, you know, the way the system's set up these days makes it a lot harder for someone like that? Ooh, that's a really good question, because I've actually thought about this. I'm not sure if cycling would be as aspirational, as interesting to me.

38:42I was 15 when I got my first road bike. I was 15 when I fell in love with road racing. So that was 1992. and it was still in the anglophone world it was just a cult weird oddball thing cycling you know if you wanted a guaranteed way not to be cool it would be a cyclist and and yeah I kind of fell in love with it all the same and I think and I like the fact it was a real loner sport and nobody knew about it and there was no you were never doing it for fame you were never doing it for likes on Instagram, you know, kind of a popularity. You were doing it because it was a singular focus. It was something that you were obsessed with, with no other ulterior motive.

39:26Whereas now there's, I mean, it's cool in certain circles. It's tribal. It's quite a socially acceptable sport. And I don't know, I'm not really, perhaps I wouldn't have found that as attractive. I like the weirdness of it. Yeah, do you think it's lost its romance? Ooh, yes and no. I mean, I liked the fact that you had to go down a rabbit hole. You had to find out about it. It wasn't there. It wasn't just easily kind of discoverable, which meant it attracted a certain type of person. And it's probably as well, I mean, the fact that I was a very curious and creative person, cycling just really ticked those boxes it was this whole kind of universe that was my universe you know it was something it was like finding a super cool band that nobody knew about you know it was like this is my band i'm gonna go to small gigs and doesn't matter and and i i i always loved that so i do question if teenage version me now would be find it as fascinating and i wouldn't want to go and get dressed the same and go coffee rides and post on Instagram that's not what it was about for me it was about disappearing it was about kind of doing something that was my thing that I owned so beyond the actual the kind of the physical ability to do it or that's that's one thing either have you or haven't but it was the it was a psychological kind of passion and curiosity and drive that really sort of gave me the edge I think the kind of I wanted to be part of this alternative universe and which was which was kind of cool and it's it's just different or attracts a different type of person i think it's the less less counterculture these days and more itv free to air that's what i was looking for counterculture yeah counterculture yeah is yeah so i mean i i think but there's also i loved all this i always loved all the science and the tech and there's a part of me that probably would that would love to have access to everything now you know it's like having all be able to track everything like all the training nutrition the equipment is that i'd have probably been equally passionate about you know it's probably more so because i was always right at the sharp end of that you know when i was a pro i loved all the latest stuff i loved all the cool tech the kind of the cool training the different things so the but at the same time i i don't know if i could have handled all the tracking or the never being off the the the fact that you become in many ways a machine because there was a certain black art to it when i was for i i often say actually since i retired in 2014 to now in 2025 i think the sport has progressed more in those 10 years than it had in the previous 50 i think it's it's completely different now i mean it's the it's just everything about it And I'm not saying it's a negative, but I do think that it's almost kind of a completely different sport with regards to professionalism and regards kind of what we know and how we train people and how performance is measured.

42:38So I feel quite, again, it was pretty cool that I got to see both sides of the sport and can appreciate looking back now what I thought was archaic and old-fashioned and ridiculous at times and very frustrating was actually pretty cool. Next year is the 110th anniversary of the Battle of the Somme. So to commemorate our Heroes of Yesterday and fundraise for the Armed Forces community today, Help for Heroes will take on a special four-day, 250-mile route across Belgium and northern France via the poignant scenery of the Somme. Taking place between the 23rd and the 28th of June, 2026, the big battlefield bike ride winds its way from Ypres to Amiens.

43:22Along the way, you'll visit historical First World War sites, hear stories of the courageous soldiers who fought for our freedom and have the opportunity to participate in the last poster ceremony at Meningate Wrap up with a ceremony at Europe's largest Commonwealth Memorial in Teatval before receiving your medal at the end of ride dinner This is more than a ride, it's a journey of remembrance, camaraderie and a chance to support the veterans and their families to live better Visit helpforheroes.org.uk to find out more about the big battlefield bike ride 2026. Help for Heroes is registered with the fundraising regulator.

44:02So fun pub quiz fact. The processor in the Hammerhead Karoo bike computer is about a thousand times faster than the one that put man on the moon. and it also has 64 gigs of storage to store global maps and ride data, which is literally a million times more than the Apollo 11 guidance computer had. And yet, it's smaller than a bar of soap and weighs just 118 grams, slightly less than the Apollo system, which I think was 29.5 kilos. To be fair, it took eight days to get to the moon and back, as it's about 380 ,000 kilometers, which is only slightly longer than most Audaxes, and the crew is good for up to 35 hours.

44:42But I still reckon Neil and Buzz's minds would have been blown by the crew's detailed but simple mapping. It's all free to download. It's available offline and it includes base maps, heat maps, popular routes, topography, and even the surface you're riding on. The crew can flag up upcoming gravel sections as part of its turn-by-turn navigation. It also does loads more besides. I mean, I don't know if Apollo 11 ran Spotify or could connect to Bluetooth headphones. so check out our full review of the Hammerhead Karoo at cyclist.co.uk and see why we gave it our cyclist recommended award then head over to hammerhead.io and use the code cyclist to get a free heart rate strap with every Karoo purchase just be sure to add the strap to your cart then apply the code at checkout bringing it right up to the present lots of people will have seen the, I think I'm right in saying, and I don't know what this is going to be like come the 25th, but still unreleased Factor 1, well, Factor, can I say Factor?

45:47You say Factor 1. Super, like, super nth degree level aero road bike. Lots of people have seen that. It's, I mean, there's no point in me trying to describe it because a picture literally is a thousand words, especially if you're on a podcast and you're trying to talk about how a bayonet fork goes into a headset and da-da-da-da. It looks, it looks extreme what would 25 year old in your like time trialing heyday have thought when if someone presented you with a bike like that because probably the fastest thing you were riding which interestingly rob jatelis once told me he reckons was still the fastest bike ever made probably up until the latest one was a savolo soloist what would you have made of a bike like that oh i'd have died i mean i i got on i've only ridden it once so far the one and it was what three weeks ago and I got on it and I just had this, just, I felt like the 18 year old me again.

46:42I was like, this is wild. This is so different. And I'm so envious, you know, of modern pros in that respect, the equipment. I used to battle, like my TT bikes, my pride and joy, because they were the only bikes where I could actually have some ownership of, where I could kind of customize them and go back to buy throat bearings buy my silk tubes kind of buy certain wheels fix out the front end do all these different bits and but i kind of had to do that so even last year i got one of the factor hanzos and kind of got it all built up to ride because i just wanted to try a modern tt bike and see what that like but the one is just it's so different in the sense that even and i see the pride from our engineering team from graham shrive who's our chief engineer who actually did my Cervelo S5 custom back in the day.

47:30The last race I won at Tour de France in 2012 and stage 12 was on a bike that Graham Shrive and Rob had made, which is kind of nuts. And if we go back even to my first bikes as a pro, my fondriest, Rob was involved in those, making those bikes. So Rob's been making my bikes through my career, but for Rob and Graham, the one is the greatest bike they've ever made. not just in we do we do presentation here we've done a couple of presentations to people and everyone expects us to go on the aerodynamics but we spend 80 percent the first 80 percent of the presentation talking about the geometry because it's like this bike is a complete paradigm shift it's they've shifted everything because we're now using shorter cranks where With the UCI, they've moved the setback from 50 mil to zero mil above the bracket vertical.

48:27People are using narrower bars. And if you go to, if you were at a bike race and you go and see all the bikes parked outside the bus before the start, all the saddles are just slammed all the way far forward. And that's because people are using these shorter cranks. They've kind of opened their hips up more. They've narrowed this, going further over the front end. But the riders are sitting on bikes that no longer fit them. they're just trying to make make themselves kind of fit on the bike somehow with the one we've done something which was classic rob and graham incredibly brave we've shifted everything so the whole bike has moved rotated over forward love the bottom bracket's been lowered it's a kind of it's compensating for the shorter cranks and bigger volume tires most people are using 30s now 28s the front end they've moved the whole center of gravity kind of lower and further forward the seat tube angle kind of goes completely so if you're using a zero setback it's further for you'd have to use a zero setback on the one to achieve a zero set sorry a setback to achieve a zero setback on a on a normal bike it's just wild i mean but you get on it and you're like oh shit this is what a bike's supposed to be like and and everything about it so i think that's what we're most proud about it with the bike is it's actually a bike that's the first bike that's actually got the modern fit that's actually designed for how we ride bikes now and you go and anyone listening to go and look at pictures of pros on their bikes and they've all got their seats just slammed all the way far forward and it's got these stupid long stems on because by having narrow handlebars that pushes you further forward as well so the whole thing's kind of out of sync so so the bike itself is aerodynamically it's the kind of accumulation of what the guys have been learning the last three years in with from the hanzo track the ostrovam and it's all kind of referred refer to it inside factor as we're now entering the third era of design within factor so the first era was leading up to ostrovam then ostrovam through hanzo track was to here and then with the one the third era begins where all bikes start to kind of amalgamate into this new system not only the aerodynamics but the flow systems and how they how they do aerodynamics now is just we've kind of found this ire i mean i don't know how it's happened but they've managed to find this new system where the bikes even recently games the wind tunnel they just keep getting faster which is just simply wild but it's almost they treat the aerodynamics as a footnote so of course that's happening we're just getting better and better at that we know how to do it but it's the geometry system which is the kind of the full game changer it's uh it's like the ultimate racing bike.

51:06And it does look, it almost looks like the back end is trying to catch up with the front, like the front's gone off. It's like so, it looks stretched out, but then you realise it's not, it's just all, like you say, shifted forward. But it sits in a, I mean, I was going to ask actually, are you in Taiwan at the moment? No, no, I'm in Toronto. You're in Toronto? Okay. Because over, obviously you'll have been out to Taiwan numerous times. I've seen their collection of the kind of pantheon of the evolution of Factor as a bike brand. And it is nuts, isn't it? Because the first one, pre-Rob Jatelis, and maybe I'll get you to tell the kind of bigger story about how the brand kind of came to be, was BF1 Systems, which was a motorsport company.

51:49And I remember this bike coming into the office, and it was, I don't know, it was made in tandem with the launch of the 177 Aston Martin. And so it was this kind of companion piece for the Uber Rich, and it cost 25 grand, I think, in, I don't know, 2015 or something like that, finger in the wind. It had hardwired hydraulic cables baked into the carbon. It had this like kind of dashboard display. It was completely mental. And then factors never really let up because it had like the Fizz Varese, which had the split down tube. And then bikes like the one just look absolutely nuts. but it blows my mind that you just said that Rob's actually kind of been designing bikes for you since day dot almost like how is that the case?

52:39It's a mad story like it's one of the reasons when I first met Rob in 2015 it kind of captured my imagination because I'd never met anybody that actually made the bikes I rode you know especially the carbon fiber that came from the far east and it was just sort of like this abstract concept of how the bikes were made and where they were made and they're kind of outsourced for everyone but learning rob's story so rob was actually he was mad he's from miami originally and he got into fell in love with cycling kind of similar to me in the sense it was a random sport imagine being in miami in the 1980s and he kind of fell in love with it um but he ended up being on the u.s national team and actually ended up being a pro for Onsay in the early 90s.

53:25And so he was a pro racer, but he also got a degree in chemical engineering from the University of Miami. So he's a little bit of an outsider in that respect. He was a pro with an education. And come 1996, he was pretty much sort of realized this wasn't going to happen for multiple reasons. And he went to visit his girlfriend from University of Miami in Taiwan. She was Taiwanese. And he decided, you know what, I'm not going back to Europe. I'm going to stay here. And he was one of the only people there that knew bikes, spoke English, and could be this conduit to companies that were going to Taiwan to get stuff made.

54:02And before he knew it, he was basically running Profile, which became Profile Design. And he saw the writing on the wall, regards carbon fiber bike manufacturing, and sort of decided to take that upon himself, that he could do this. He could kind of go the factories and figure out how this worked. And he started making bikes for everyone else. And by the mid 2000s, all those Cervelo's that first came to market in the 2000s, they were all made by Rob and his factory. And he ended up having a factory with a lot of people, hundreds and hundreds of people making bikes for everyone in the 2000s. And we're talking Trek, Canyon in the early days, Cervelo.

54:41Rob was the go to guy. If you wanted the best carbon fiber bike made, you went to Rob to Tillis and he would get it done. And so he was basically an OEM manufacturer and all the big brands would go to him. Come 2011, 12 was when Cervelo and some of his big contracts that were bought out by these kind of big conglomerates and they tried to get him to basically lessen the price, go cheaper. And he refused to. And he was like, I'm not making the bikes that are less good than I can. And at that point he made the decision you know what i'm going to phase out these contracts and i'm going to do it on my own it's kind of i'm at that point in my life is mid late 40s and thought if i don't do it now i'll never do it let's kind of bite the bullet and at the same time go back to bf1 so john bailey who owned bf1 and the skunk works projects they had of making that bike which was literally that's what it was 2007 they decided at bf1 they had some downtime he was like let's kind of keep my team sort of inspired why don't we try and make like the best bike in the world and integrate all our tech into it and so they did this and it won all the bike awards i think at 2009 2010 euro bike and i think it was early 210s when it's the aston martin bike yeah and they thought well this has got a bit of traction why don't we try and do a production run of this and they were told well there's only one person in the world who could make a bike as complex as this is rob totillos why do you then speak to him so they got in touch come 2014 2015 2015, made the first kind of production run of 100 bikes.

56:13And at this point, Factor as it was, and John Bailey's were like, we don't know how to do this. This is kind of out of our wheelhouse now. And Rob was like, well, this is the perfect vehicle for what I want to do. He bought the brand and said, the Factor will be my vehicle to make the best, boldest, most exciting bikes in the world because he needed, that was the brand was there and it kind of encapsulates it. so that was in 2015 2016 he kind of got full ownership of factor he'd now phase out everyone he'd downsize his factory and was like i'm gonna do this and during the winter of he started making bikes he kind of made that first hundred run of a hundred so he'd made this kind of this this o2 a road bike and somehow roman bardet got wind of this and was he wasn't happy with his bike on ag2r in 2016 so in the winter he was testing a few different bikes and he tested the facts and like this is the one I want.

57:05And he'd finished second that year's Tour de France, so he had some pool. And so there, Rob signed with AG2R for 2017 and he still hadn't made 250 bikes. So it ended up being in the world tour in 2017 before even making any bikes and ended up with the 2017 tour on the podium with a stage win, basically within a year of Rob owning factor. And then it's just been all guns blazing since then. But it's taken Rob, I think, until about four years ago to really get his full engineering team in place. And Graham Shrive, who's the chief engineer, head of engineering at FACTA, had come from him being the head of engineer at Cervelo previously.

57:50And he came on board and has now, since three years, built the team. And he says, it takes five years for me to kind of, for us to get this fully going. And so we're in year three of the full-blown team kind of working together. And so that's why we talk about the third era of design. From this bike onwards, things start to basically all kind of amalgamate together. So it's amazing to be part of, because you see that it's just an engineering first company, because there's no other bike brand in the world that owns its own factory that doesn't have product managers, that kind of just is madly passionate about making insane bikes and can do it at a pace no one else can.

58:35So for me as a kind of bike nerd, it's been like going back to school because I kind of got a WhatsApp group with Rob and then the engineers and stuff and I get to see everything going on and it's just like, no wonder none of you listened to me as a pro because it's like, it knew nothing. It's like, it's so advanced. So I got a whole new respect, kind of an understanding of why as pros, we would never listen to because actually we don't know anything. It sort of comes at a semi weird time to be, you know, releasing a super era. I think you guys labeled it as a lead out bike, but I mean, saw Jake Stewart in the summer going very quickly in Tour de France in the Dauphiné.

59:17But as we're talking now, the start of December like unless there's secret plans that haven't been announced yet yet you don't have a men's world tour team to be riding this bike in 26 but you have women's human powered health team is there a plan in place to have this in you know biggest men's races or is that more long term now and right now it's look at this amazing bike it's look at this amazing bike for now it's like it's it it's just it's the ultimate irony that we've made the greatest ever road racing bike and won't be in the world tour probably next year so it's uh it's not ideal but it's it is what it is and i think we'll see what how it unfolds but we're gonna have modern adventure human powered health um a couple of other smaller teams but there's nothing we can do about it it's just this series of events that have unfolded it's put us in this situation so we're just going to have to do something which is kind of uh unorthodox which is trying to tell people about the fastest road bike in the world and not being the fastest races under the fastest racers which yeah it's it's not it's not how we would have wanted it but it is what it is are there any eyes on expiring team bike brand deals next year or is this just sort of see how it goes maybe modern adventure will really you know kick off i mean modern adventure whatever happens with that work that's george hincap he's kind of american team which is on a very long-term project to become a US and American Tour de France team.

1:00:44So whatever happens, we're kind of backing them 100%. And we know they'll grow and get bigger. They have the backing. Yeah, I think it's going to be interesting because I think as a bike brand, the status quo is you have to sponsor a world tour team. But if you ask the majority of people, they won't know who's riding what bike. Unless you've got Tali Pogac, Remco Evan Nippur, Mathieu Van Nippur, Wout Van Aar, Jonas Wiengegaard and that's only three bike brands there it's it's pretty hard to sort of for people to know what they're on I think often it's just a validator it's a oh we are at the Tour de France we are in the world tour and then it's so I think it's going to be down to us to really sort of talk to be more proactive in how we kind of talk to people in our marketing and get people behind the curtain of what factor is and why we do it I mean obviously at a marketing level it sucks kind of because we're now gonna have to think differently and i think at a deeper level we love racing so we would love our bikes to be kind of in the biggest races being raced because that's what they're designed for but it doesn't stop us designing and making bikes how we do it for that purpose it's just we're probably just going to be a bit patient until we get back in the in the world tour but it's it's not so simple just to get in the world to a team they tend to be fairly booked up it's a it's a bit of a waiting list and i guess insanely expensive and i don't know how long a bike like that takes to manufacture but i mean you're supplying what 200 bikes to a big wild tour outfit a year that's a lot of bikes 250 yeah it's yeah it's a significant investment i mean you got cash money and the bikes um but i mean this is the thing as well we don't know if we can't tell if we are going to lose that money by not being in it yeah kind of more so it's it's going to be very interesting next year uh because maybe it's an opportunity to try something different i don't think it's uh it's it's a challenge let's say and i think it's one there's actually it's actually quite is it's an exciting challenge you know because i think it is kind of cookie cut to just leaf blow money at a world tour team and wash your hands of it and there we go there's our bike it's being raced but actually now we've got to actually talk more about it.

1:02:59And that's one of the joys as well in my role at Factor is actually being in a company and brand that means what it says. There's no smoke and mirrors. We don't have to make stuff up. When I came on board in the end of last year, I was like, Jesus, guys. It's like, there's no brand book, no kind of marketing or brand strategy. It was just, we made bikes. It was engineering first. And it was such a breath of fresh air. It was like, oh, this is like, because you guys are so real. This is so much fun and nobody knows about it. So this is actually kind of, we can have fun with this. So that's next year we can have even more fun with it.

1:03:35Brilliant. Well, I mean, do you think there's a scope for you to become a kind of get back in training ambassador, do a kind of Phil Gaiman style, KOM Slayer on a one? You're blowing your cheeks out there like someone's asked you about that already at work. I'm in that classic one where you work in a bike company of access, those beautiful bikes in the world you have no time to ride them and because and i did i did have time at the beginning of the year and i did the tracker 560 that 560 kilometer gravel thing and that that's that's just put me off riding my bike the rest of the year i mean it was an amazing experience but i came out of it so buckled it kind of completely took the wind out of my sales.

1:04:20So hopefully by the time this podcast airs, I'll be back on my bike because that's my kind of plan once this launch is done to actually start giving myself some riding time because I do miss it at the moment. But regards challenges and stuff, the last few years I tried to give myself a challenge each year and I think I overdid it this year. So I want to just get back to be able I was going to go out for fun hammer sessions for an hour and a half, two hours and enjoy going fast. But presumably your sister is making you do the RAFA Festive 500, which I'm assuming does that still exist? I did it last year.

1:04:57I did it last year. And it does. And I did it, actually, I'd only just found I'd been kind of dared to do the track of 560 a week before. So I was like, I'll do the 500. That would kick me into gear. But this year I can't. We're away with the family over Christmas. So otherwise I might have, she might have made me do it. but actually it took up so much time and i mean i hammered it as well i averaged like 34 k's an hour which i was super proud of for the 500 k's and still it felt like my whole christmas was ruined because all i was thinking about was how do i get the k's in it was just like so maybe not maybe not this year and then it's the family just like come on like david dad's like what you're supposed to be doing this is supposed to be a time of of quiet reflection and enjoying each other's company not going out and beasting yourself on your own in the rain but then i don't know maybe you're still hardwired on some level like you say like there's an attraction isn't there in cycling that strange um solitude yeah i mean i you know what i'm so this is an interesting one with i do road i do gravel i do mountain bike and i love them because i can just become a different person each one I do.

1:06:10So road, I'm just antisocial. I love just going out on my own and hammering and just kind of disappearing. Gravel, it's just, I tend to just only do it if I'm doing events and it's just fun adventures and kind of not really caring. It doesn't really matter what happens. And then mountain biking, and you know, you can get dressed up for different things as well. Roads are like super era and like kind of still feel like a pro even though you don't look at gravel you can be a bit sort of utilitarian and overprepared and then mountain biking is just loose i kind of just go out and hope i don't break a bone and it stops starting and it's just a totally different vibe so yeah so each one of them still has that kind of identity but road there's no doubt for me is i love just going out on my own and just hammering but you did that you did the cape epic didn't you with with fran yeah yeah that must be very different that was amazing I'm still in awe that she did that.

1:07:07I mean, we had no idea what we'd signed up for. And she'd never ridden a mountain bike until a month before. And we got there and I remember opening up the book and going, oh my God, France, this is like the hardest mountain bike stage race in the world. That's one by Cadell Evans. Yeah. I was like, this is ridiculous. And we had the hardest one in history because the weather was bad and the course was bad. that was just an amazing bonding experience it was my first time on the bike really for for for years really and there was she she did it mainly just to get me back on the bike and so it was a lovely bonding experience so i think that was a i would recommend it even kind of doing those sort of two up team experiences they're pretty magical and obviously now she's taken over at Rafa, you're in the position you are, are you sort of sharing notes with your brawls that you're in now or are you just letting each other do what you need to do?

1:08:08It's quite cool because obviously with Factor and Rafa we have sort of collaboration things going on, we work pretty tightly with them but it's been really cool actually because we're so different my sister and I, kind of yin and yang in many ways, so it's nice that I can be doing this with Factor which is very much kind of my wheelhouse bikes and performance and engineering and edginess and france is much more into the kind of the community and kind of all that sort of thing and whereas so it's we're both doing the things we love into very different but parallel brands that sit at the same sort of position in the industry in many ways so yeah i mean i'd have never thought we'd end up kind of effectively working in the same world just in using our different skill sets in different places it's it's fun it's it's unexpected and of course rafa without a world tour team for next year as well so i guess you can share your plans on that as well yeah exactly says me right because she'd asked me like last year what do you think it'll be all right with that world tour team i was like you'll be fine I was like, don't worry about it.

1:09:13I was like, oh, shit. So, yeah, I had to live up to what I said. Yeah, I think it's serious. On a serious note, though, it is worth pointing out that you guys have, unlike lots of other people in a sport that has notoriously courted slightly, I don't know, dubious sponsorship and has some, I don't know, there's some stuff around cycling, let's say, sponsorship-wise, which has been caught into question. and more recently it's to do with sports washing right and you guys have actually stepped away from a contract and also would have been part of your plans to have a world tour team and to pour money into a world tour level bike the fastest you know fastest bike the world has ever seen on the road to step away from that must have been incredibly difficult but you did so on political grounds and i don't know help me out elaborate on that a little bit because i hear so much from other or we hear as fans so much from from riders particularly when quizzed with uh what do you think about your sponsor x being involved in and then them going oh sports nothing to do with me that's not what we're here for and there's always a bit of me and a bit of lots of fans i think they go well to a degree yeah but also no that's exactly what you're here for because you get a soapbox other people don't and you can make some you know meaningful statements that the rest of us can't and i think a you guys should be massively praised for for doing what you've done because that must have been extremely difficult but then the question is how do you sit on that do you feel like more brands more teams more riders need to actually kind of step up a little bit i think it's very individual um we didn't step away from anything in the sense that it's at a contract level that's that's something else completely but i think for us as a company and a brand is it's very much i think anybody in the same situation it just becomes untenable we're in for the sport in anything we do and i think any brand is the same you're going in because we're it's a good news thing it's we're doing it because all we care about are the races and the races and the moment i think for for any company or brand that is invested in a sport you want it to be about the sport and i think it's that's that's what it is and i think it's and i i don't But no, I mean, I think with cycling, as you say, it's a mad one regards to sponsorships.

1:11:37I mean, you can go from having like agricultural tubing to the kind of a sovereign Middle Eastern state. You know, it's pretty wild in that respect. And I think we can dig into most sponsors and you can find skeletons in the closet. But I think the moment it becomes political in the public domain, it's something that becomes very challenging. because politics by its very nature isn't something I don't think should be mixed up in sport. It's the whole concept of sport is it's an arena that is kind of free of that, which is idealistic, it's not true, because if we look at World Cups, etc., they're effectively kind of war with referees.

1:12:21But I think when you come to sort of commercial sponsorships and things like that, then it becomes a bit more delicate in regards how it is. So for us, it's been a very challenging experience. And I think it's something that it was, I think, even Robin's interview a couple of months ago, the bottom line is it's just untenable for us. That's what it does. It's damaging our company and our brand. And we have to be realistic about the fact that we can't be involved with anything, but ends up being detrimental to our company and brand. And it's as simple as that. really. So yeah, it's not simple. And it's a very unfortunate situation for anybody to be in.

1:13:04Yeah. I'm just racking my brains now to try and think of a non-nefarious cycling team sponsor. Best I can come up with, Linda McCartney. I feel like Linda McCartney, vegetarian foods. There's probably some controversy there. Yeah. What's wrong with Sudol Quickstep? Yeah. You've got sea lint floors. Yeah, but they're probably getting some mag petrochemicals from somewhere and they're exploiting children in their factories. I don't know. I mean, that's not true. Do not sue us for libel. I use Quickstep products myself. Fantastic sealants. But yeah, I don't know. Yeah. I mean, yeah, as you say, the skeletons, skeletons in all closets.

1:13:38I want to end on a happier note. And I'd like to ask you a question, which I hope you're going to say, answering the positive to. And then, because it's Christmas, give me a few traditions or topics of arguments that happen on Christmas Day in the Miller household. How does it kind of paint us a picture? But the question I want to ask you is, And this is from my deepest, darkest research into Wikipedia, which is how my journalistic tendrils extend. Is it true that in 2013, you banged your head on a beam and you lost your sense of smell? And has it come back? I did. I did. That's a very true story.

1:14:12I was in a chateau in northern France, and I was consulting on the Stephen Frears film, The Programme. And we had a day off filming, and we were going to go. So I'd organize for us all to go champagne to visit, who was Verve Clicquot, I think. And I'd forgotten my phone in my room. So I went rushing up to my room, got my phone, left my room, was looking at my phone. I was walking along and banged my head in a beam and effectively knocked myself out. And when I came to, I was in an ambulance. And it was about a week later when I was with my wife back in Girona and had a barber jacket on. and she was like oh that stinks and i was like what and i went so it doesn't smell and i was like oh that's weird and then i kind of cuff i went got home later and i got this odor cloth and i shoved up my nose i was like oh my god i can't smell anything and then it kind of went on google and banging head and i didn't and miraculously a year later my smell came back which is which is wild so i had a year of no smell sounds horrible can't taste food properly Well, you know what?

1:15:18You know what? It's interesting because the one thing that I was really sad about that I would never smell freshly cut grass again. Nice. Yeah. So it was that. And you kind of obviously, food becomes a whole different experience. Because Ryder Hesjadar, my former teammate, had no sense of smell from a crash. And he used to take a great amount of joy from textures. Okay. So he'd rack up his plate with different textures. But that was it. That's how dull life can get. So I would consider that to be one of the greatest fortunes of my life, that my smell returned. So yeah, I'm back to normal. I can smell cut grass again.

1:15:56So yeah, that's a true story. Wow. Great. As for Christmas, not much. We're not one of those families that has big issues on Christmas Day. It tends to be a very joyous, lovely day. Until you go out riding 500k. Yeah, exactly. until I'm jumping on Zwift at four o 'clock to try and get like 50Ks in to try and like rack it up. No, Christmas is a good time in our house. Fortunately, because we kind of do what we call the Christmas Olympics because my parents are divorced. My wife's parents are divorced. So it was a time where you'd just be getting different parents. That's a four-year cycle of having different parents.

1:16:33So you kind of mix it up. Nothing ever gets, the Vikings can't get too cyclical on a yearly basis. Whatever happened bad is forgotten by the four-year cycle. so we're all good Well David, it's been an absolute pleasure to chat, thanks so much for your time No, thank you Best of luck with Factor 1 launch you'll see it in, I'm not trying to plug cyclist, you'll see it across the media you will be able to see it in Cyclist magazine you've actually just been away on a press camp with my boss Pete Muir who sends his regards and says you're an absolute beast on the bike but also a gent in the bar and you didn't do the thing that so many people do on those junkets where you start trying to kind of slightly prove yourself in that one-upmanship sort of way on a bike, you know, there is, I think, you know, I'm going, I'm peeping, you know, this is lifting the curtain.

1:17:21We're not going to talk about press trips, but yeah. Yeah, I tap out the moment anyone half-wheels me. Those days are behind me. Excellent. Well, good stuff. But yeah, thanks again, David, and yeah, have a wiki Christmas. Thank you, guys. Merry Christmas.

1:17:42David Miller, ladies and gentlemen. Our last guest of the year. Great guest. Great guest, best guest of the year. He's got to be up there. I really enjoyed that. I won't say he was definitely the best because I can't remember off the top of my head all the guests that I've been on. I won't say I was definitely the best, but I was definitely in the top one. Yeah, thanks Brian Clough. Thank you. Anyway, so I like the fact that you've got a little bit of insight into, well, not really, but you know, a cursory glance at what the Millers might be doing. come Christmas, which obviously segues nicely into asking me what you are doing this day that is Christmas will.

1:18:18But that hasn't happened yet because as noted, it's not Christmas and you might not even be listening to this on Christmas Day. We hope you're not listening to this on Christmas Day unless you've got a good, solid, long, isolated drive. So what I want to do is just furnish you with a few little ideas that might take you through the rest of the festive season because there's a lot of it and you're going to have chat and there's going to be those little bits of the conversation dries up. So here's some good questions. I think that A, I'd write them down if I were you, you can use them. B, I'd like to hear what you think of them, Will.

1:18:49And I just want to point out, I got these questions from chat GPT, because this was, if nothing else, the year of AI. I think the creators of AI were the time people of the year. So why not ask AI to generate conversational content? Because goodness knows, we're probably We're going to get replaced ourselves fairly soon. So, yeah, let's usher that in now. So my first question to you, Will, what do you think most people get wrong about you? So, yeah, you've sent me these questions before, and I was expecting them to be more Christmassy, considering the theme, but I'm fine to go with it, especially if conversations start at the table, we'll probably start a few fights, but let's go.

1:19:28People that most people probably get wrong about me is they probably look at me and think I'm older than I am. like you still identify as being like you're 48 i'm 48 forever yeah 48 forever what's what's what's the average guess i don't even know how old you are so i mean i sort of do but i'm going to guess i reckon you're actually 26 and people reckon you're like 39 yeah you've definitely thought i've been in my 30s before i'm 29 it's 29 that's the time of recording wow there we go i just well you know just to explain where these questions came from initially i said ask chat gpt to generate five great questions to ask someone on Christmas Day to keep the conversation going.

1:20:07I'd give that one maybe a two out of five for a Christmas Day conversation. Well, initially it gave me these five. It said, here are five great low-pressure questions which you can ask on Christmas Day. And they were actually very Christmassy. It said, what's been a small moment that's really stuck with you this year? Do you have a Christmas tradition you secretly love the most? What's something you're looking forward to in the new year? What's the best meal, trip or experience you had this year? If today could be exactly how you want it, what would make it perfect? And I said, I want some higher pressure questions, please.

1:20:38Not necessarily based on the year or Christmas. Well, you can't have them. So hence the asking you what people get wrong about you. I'd also like to know, what's a belief you've changed your mind about and why? I'm struggling with this one, actually. I'm not sure. I'm really not sure. It wasn't your departure from Catholicism. No, I think probably it's more like sometimes you can be a bit mean. and that's fine. Okay. I don't really understand. What do you mean? Because sometimes you're out and you just think this person is being an absolute arsehole. Before I would have said it, just be nice to everyone.

1:21:13And sometimes, in the Christmas spirit, just tell them. So you've become sort of like kind of accepting of meanness. You've chosen to be less kind. Okay, great. Well, that's nice. How about this one? Have you ever flown a kite? Not that I can remember. No? What? You've never flown a kite? I probably have, but not that I remember. Well, hopefully someone got one for you for Christmas. If not, there's still time for me to get one sent over to you. Is there anything purple within 10 feet of you? Oh, that's a great question. Have a look around. Could be. 10 feet, yes. I can see some purple. Yeah, what is it?

1:21:57it's the shirt or vest that I run the London Marathon in purple for the charity Aspirin Lung UK not because you're sponsored by Cadbury no it's for Aspirin Lung UK Aspirin Lung UK okay nice what do you think matters more being kind or being honest I think you just answered that question it's being mean C A being kind B being honest or C being mean yeah no I do think it's being kind okay good I'm pleased It's good to lie. Sometimes it helps. Yeah. And what do you do to optimise your life? And what do you do it for? Wow. Welcome to the diary of a CEO. Yeah, wow. Thanks, Stephen. Optimise my life.

1:22:41I optimise my life in trying to cause the least hassle possible. Not for you or for other people? For other people, yeah. By you existing, you try not to create hassle. Yeah, try not to get away. Yeah. Will the shrinking violet. and where do you think people your age which we know as 29 tend to lie to themselves i would say people might probably think that they're better people than they are generally yeah i would also think that people lie to themselves they probably put too much pressure on themselves to think that they should be further ahead in life when actually 29 it's fine yeah okay well yeah i mean i'd sort sort of buy into that.

1:23:21I definitely think I thought I was pretty rad when I was in my mid-twenties and my thirties has been, you know, hallmarked by great seeds of doubt. But there's nothing like some therapy to get over that one. So, yeah. No, on a serious note, everyone should have a chat to somebody, especially at Christmas. Yeah. Well, that's lovely, Will. Anything you'd like to add? I'd also like to maybe go over some of those other questions that were about Christmas in the year because they were good. Favourite meal I've had this year was... I had some great meals, safari in Kenya at Saruni Mara. And there was some really, actually it was more than one.

1:24:00Wasn't she in Girl with a Dragon Tattoo? Yeah, her family owns the Pittsburgh Steelers and the New York Giants. They're all going for that. Interesting, Rooney Mara is actually their last name. She's not called Rooney. They're the Rooney Mara family because some of them are Roonies. And if you know NFL, you know the Roonies own Pittsburgh Steelers and the Mara's own menu of Giants. I don't know any of that, no. They did some cohabitation and now it's a super family who are rich and two of them are actors. Okay. And I've forgotten the question. Best meal? Best meal. I also, in Florence... You didn't say what the meal was, you just said where you had it.

1:24:40I just said the whole menu, it was really good. That's not that exciting, is it? So that's saying, what's the funniest joke you've ever heard? The really funny one I heard that time. There was a really bloody well-cooked steak and a great quiche. Great quiche? Yes, great quiche. Quiche Lorraine Kelly. Yes, exactly. And then also in Florence, really excellent sandwich with a little crispy... Bread. Bread, that's what I'm looking for. And I can't remember the name of the restaurant. One of those words that often readily come to mind when you say sandwich, I always find what is that word I'm trying to think of that's connected yeah I can't remember what the name of the sandwich shop was but it's one of those that's been viral so you'll probably be able to find it great okay you said you like the questions so I'll just give you one other one alright what's been a small moment this year that's really stuck with you talking to David Miller on the Cyclist Magazine podcast I would say that's a large moment Will that's true actually that's true I don't know, actually, then.

1:25:48Oh, okay. Because all the best moments in my life are enormous. They're enormous. Large moments. The large moments of Will Strixon. Yeah. Oh, that's lovely. I'm going to leave you with a few jokes, because it's Christmas, and the ones in your cracker were probably rubbish. That guy that invented the Tic Tac, he made a mint. Yeah. Of all the guys I know, you're one of them. Yeah, I'm really good. don't take your kids to see orchestras. It's too much sax and violins. Nice. Very good. How do you make a duck into a soul singer? Oh, gosh. Don't know. Put him in the microwave until his bill withers.

1:26:31That's good, isn't it? On that note, toodaloo, enjoy Boxing Day.

1:26:41hello lovely listeners i just wanted to tell you that cyclist isn't just a podcast no cyclist is also a beautiful print magazine it's packed full of all the best rides from around the world the newest bikes and kit and loads of in-depth articles featuring guests just like on today's show so head on over to cyclist.co.uk slash subscriptions and check out our latest cyclist magazine subscription offers