160. Ned Boulting: The Tour de France Special

0:00It kind of pains me to admit this as a cyclist, but I rather like cars. And I think I've just been driving around in the nicest car I will ever, ever drive. And that's the Maserati Gricali, which it turns out is what happens if an Italian supercar company designed an SUV for people like me, for cyclists. Now, the Gricali is fast, like 0-60 in 4.1 seconds fast, but it is also, it's just delightful to sit in. It has the legroom of a first-class flight to Singapore. or it's arguably more luxurious inside than my own house. And yet, I kind of can't believe I'm saying it because of what it is. It's a genuinely practical car.

0:36I could happily chuck a dirty bike in the back of it, then do the shopping, and then go and pick up the rest of the family. Now, I've been driving the electric Fulgori version, which has the equivalent of a 557 brake horsepower dual electric motor with a 360 mile range, which sounds incredibly impressive, I know, but let's just put that in cycling terms, which we actually understand. That is the same power output as a thousand Tadej Pogacchas all racing Milan-San Remo at once and then racing back again. Now, as well as the electric version, there are multiple engine options too, and prices start from£59 ,990, which, when you think about it, is something of a bargain given Pogaccha's Tour de France winning Colnago from last year sold at auction for£143 ,000.

1:23You could have bought two brand new Maserati Gricalis for that. Now you can find out more and also find out where your local Maserati dealer is at maserati.com where else. So that's maserati.com and check out the Maserati Gricali.

1:42Welcome back to another episode of the Cycist Magazine podcast and today is a very exciting one. We're not going to hang around too much on the intro but I'm joined today I'm Will Strix and I forgot to introduce myself, but you know who I am, maybe, maybe not. I'm joined today by Robin Davison, who I'm sure you know Robin by now. She's fresh off Magdalene Valliers, I feel like, recently, although sadly she didn't quite have the Giro that you were expecting. Robin, we've got Ned Bolting on today. What are you expecting from this conversation? A lot of Ned gems, I think. There's a lot of people, I think Ned is synonymous with Tour de France coverage, although unfortunately not.

2:20anymore with itv4 but there's just some i can listen to him forever there's something about his voice like him and rob hatch for me are like they could be talking about anything and i would listen so hopefully you have them playing when you sleep like what like white noise yeah i actually i play brown noise when i sleep i think it's like a lower tone or something but uh yeah how about you william what are you looking forward to i'm looking forward to outlandish predictions that you know we always make i feel like we probably between us we probably make them way too much on on the podcast when we're on so i'll try and dial that down leave that to ned today so that's good good for me save mine for another time luckily i think our online duo predictions went better than our podcast ones from last time so i was pleased about that one um but yeah let's get into it it's our tour de france preview with mr tour de france ned bolting talking about how you can still listen to Ned talk about Tour de France throughout the summer and beyond because Ned loves the Tour de France.

3:24But yeah, let's go into it.

3:30Ned, you're back once again, the Renegade Master, but in a slightly different form. Everyone knows that ITV for now is no longer in the cycling sphere and you're back with For the Love of Cycling. Now, when we had spoke to you before, I think you were sort of teasing your plans for the post ITV Tour de France world. I think it was just before the Giro that you launched this new venture, which was a podcast, YouTube show, with the same crew that everyone can expect you to be with David Miller, Pete Kennock, Lizzie Daiglin, and guests, I think, I would assume. Yeah. But you're also part of a bigger network, which also includes What's Occurring.

4:09So you're kind of the same family as Karen Thomas and Luke Crow and What's Occurring fam, of course. and also people might recognize the title for the love of cycling from for the love of rugby and I think there's a for the love of cricket as well there is I'm guessing they're branching out how did that all come about and what is what does this mean for how we will be seeing you this year so I suppose it's born out of our impulse our desire to go back to France not to turn our backs on you know the race that we love and to try and offer as much as we possibly could free of charge within the parameters of what is feasible to a big audience that is going to be disenfranchised this summer.

4:52You know, our initial hope and aspiration that we could somehow create a sort of live watch along ballooned into something that was, for now at least, just beyond what we were capable of putting together in quite a short space of time. There are a number of, you know, commercial, technical and also possibly legal hurdles that proved a little bit too much in year one. And it was at roughly that point that Crowd Network, who, as you alluded to, they support and produce a huge number of podcasts, very successful podcasts across the sports world. they approached us and said why don't we get together and launch something with um with a sort of mainstream appeal and their understanding of the podcast industry behind it to reach as big a possible audience because as you rightly say that you know they've got this kind of juggernaut podcasts already in their portfolio and it felt at that time that um you know little old never strays far which hasn't gone away it's just our podcast that's been going for a long, long time.

5:58We've just pressed pause on it. And what used to be a bit of a cottage industry, in other words, me doing, you know, editing and doing all that, I can't sort of take on the scope all on my own of what needed to be done here. So we've got an army of Gen Zs and millennials helping us, you know, clip things up and put them out there in the way that you have to, frankly, if you're going to punch through in the year 2026. So that's a very long winded answer. I apologise for that. But the upshot of it all is that, and this we absolutely insisted on, is that primarily David and I, but also joined, as you say, by Lizzie and Pete, are going to be in France.

6:35We're going to be watching the race from the side of the road as fans, making up our own agenda and having the time of our lives, really. And when each stage finishes, we are then going to, which we will have watched, just like everybody in the planet, rather than commentating, We'll just be watching it on the television and indeed at the side of the road. So every day we're going to see them come past at some point. We're then going to kick back and chat about what it is that we've just seen. So every single day there will be an audio, if that's how you want to consume it, or a video podcast.

7:09And I think quite significantly from France, because there's an awful lot of cycling podcasts that don't go to France, but we will be at the side of the road. And how has your preparation changed from your many years of being in the booth to being now by the side of the road? Do you have to know the route a bit more because you figure out where you go or is it a bit more relaxed? Yeah, that's interesting in itself. So working for television, the thing that we always had to do was get ahead of the race to get to the next finish line, which is where we work every day. Don't have to do that now. We can literally, after 23 years of sitting in traffic jams at the Tour de France, what's 23 times 21 it's a big number it's a lot of stages of the tour de france that i've that i've been to that's a lot of traffic jams in my life and now at my time in life i i deeply deeply want to avoid sitting in traffic jams ever again in france and so with that in mind i've quite deliberately i had to book all the hotels hopefully next year i'll get a bit of help from crowd network but i've booked all the hotels and i've quite deliberately booked hotels in the middle of each race i'm going nowhere near the start i'm definitely going nowhere near the finish with the exception of out there was in paris other than that i'm not going near any of the finished towns and we're just gonna freestyle our way around and and go and see stuff in the mornings before the race starts or even while the race is on actually go and see stuff in france that really interests us and uh film a bit of that journey as well so all the cultural side of it that i think people have always quite enjoyed from the from the itv coverage will be a big part of of what we offer up to the sort of viewing and listening public so in terms of all your like preparation from the race as well as we're recording we're about a week and a bit away from the start of the tour de france it's all very exciting the biggest story could be paul's success and for those who aren't up to speed can you give people a little bit of a breakdown what we can expect realistically for his first tour and also potentially maybe with this injury from the not Dauphiné but still is Dauphiné that might have hampered things a little bit.

9:21Yeah I mean Sex As has changed everything just the the mention of his word in terms of you know for years now we've been treated to I mean a duel an epic duel for the ages there's been six years in which either Pogacar or Wingergaard have won. And on five of those years, they finished first and second in the Tour de France. It's quite remarkable. You know, it's kind of off the scale when you think about it. It's gone way, way beyond Coppi and Bartoli and Pulido and Oncatil and Merckx and his various different rivals. You know, this is the greatest rivalry in the history of the Tour de France. But it has been slightly monolithic.

9:58And over recent years, it's been tipping very much in favor of one rider over the other. And I don't really see that changing. So sex-ass is the random factor that has arrived almost from nowhere and has confounded expectations in his first year as an out-and-out leader at the age of 19, by the way. When Pogacar won the Tour de France, he was 21 in 2020, and we all went, that's just inconceivable. This kid is two years younger than Pogacar was. But it's a different proposition. you're right he's i think the dauphiné the not dauphiné as you put it was actually quite an important moment in paul sexas's career because there was a huge there was a huge level of expectation in how he would perform at that race with given that he's already won a world tour gc this year the first frenchman to do so since christophe moreau won the dauphiné almost 20 years ago so he went into that race with a massive massive expectation because there was no Pogacar and Vingegaard it was almost considered to be a formality that he would win given you know how good he is at all the chosen disciplines and that's not what happened you know his team produced a modest a modest team time trial it wasn't bad but it wasn't blistering at all and his contribution in that team time trial was a little bit naive as well and then he crashed and crashing is something you can't do if you want to win a grand tour.

11:21So within that sort of sequence of underperformance, if you like, if that isn't too harsh a word, I think there were, we saw why people are so deeply, deeply convinced by Paul Seixas, because the way he chased back on, having crashed, was the ride of a champion. You know, it really was psychologically and physiologically an enormous feat to get back on after that crash. And so that is kind of like in the positive side of the balance book but I think it's probably no bad thing that he didn't win the Dauphiné he'll win plenty of Dauphinés in the years to come and I think it just tempers our anticipation of what he can and can't achieve at the Tour de France although I was having precisely this conversation yesterday with David and Miller about it actually and I think he has to go to the Tour de France this year as young as he is and as green as he is because I think just get it done he will be he is going to have to live for the rest of his racing life with this enormous pressure on his shoulders of being the heir apparent for France.

12:21So let's get it done. Let's get him used to that. And I don't think realistically anybody with a sane mind was genuinely thinking he'll win the Tour de France this year. I don't think people were thinking that. I mean, I think if they were, they need to watch another sport. So I genuinely don't think, yes, there is a lot of pressure, but I don't think, even with the most kind of like tricolour, tinted glasses. Anyone was thinking he'll win the Tour de France this year. So I don't know how much pressure there is really on him. I think people are just interested in seeing how far he can go in the general classification.

12:58You know, can he get onto the podium? I think that's a realistic aim. And if he falls short of that, then fine. He's 19. But the words, you know, I went down for some writing I was doing earlier on this year. In February, I went to the Tour de la Provence and I bumped into Thomas Vucler who works for that race and we chatted before the race got underway and I said to him both on and off the record actually I said Thomas is in Paul's sex house have you got as good a rider as everybody thinks and he unequivocally did not hesitate to say this kid will win the Tour de France and he'll be the next French world road race champion as well and he's in charge of this project from a national perspective anyway and he's a good judge of horse flesh, Tom of a class.

13:44So I think he is that good. But he's not going to win the Tour de France, not this year. Because that is the thing, like you mentioned his age, like he's still got time to develop even from the incredible point that he is now in his second year as a pro, still I think the second youngest rider in the World Tour. It was pretty crazy. You mentioned the podium battle because I think this is sort of slightly going under the radar with all the focus on Sexless himself and obviously the general Wingergaard-Pogaccia battle. but the top end, the top 10 of this year's tour just seems absolutely stacked with riders more so than in previous years.

14:18I mean, the battle for the podium, you've obviously got the last couple of years. You've got Lipovic, Evan Le Paul, both there now teammates. You've got Sexass. Ayuso, who knows, if he can do it over three weeks if he can keep his head screwed on and not get stung by a bee. And Isaac Del Toro, who also pretty emphatically did win the Not Dauphiné and also will be working for Pogaccia. how do they separate themselves and is there someone that you think is you know standing above the rest yeah Tadej Pogacar is he's so far ahead of everybody you know but for me that the rider who fascinates me of that list the most is is Isaac del Toro because you know if you remove Tadej Pogacar from the equation which obviously you can't his form is just off this I mean it's what is it 23 victories or something like that since the Giro last year that he threw away and the way he absolutely cruised to victory at the Dauphiné made you think, I think it made us all feel rather stupid for not kind of looking at the Dauphiné start list and going there's only one rider who can win this race.

15:22You can keep your Jorgensen's, you can throw your Ayuso, you can, you know, discard poor Texas. There's only one rider who's going to win this race and he's going to win it by minutes and it's Isaac Del Toro. Of course it is. Of course it is. You know, so to have him on the same team, and then he will know, Isaac Del Toro, how far behind Tadej Pogacar he is, actually. You know, so it's very hard to judge, isn't it, when you just see him destroying the Dauphiné field. But put him on a climb next to Tadej Pogacar, and he will know better than anyone, because he trains with this guy all the time.

15:56He will know how far behind Pogacar is. He is, you know. So I don't, is he going to finish on, I mean, are they going to do a one-two? Why not? You know, like a turbocharged version of what Visma Lisa bike attempted to do at the Giro this year with Vinger God and with, what's his name, Piganzoli, you know. Oh, can you keep him in the GC? Maybe he could end up on the podium. It didn't quite work out like that, but they damn near had a go. Well, Del Toro and Pogacar could finish one too. I mean, they really could in the bike race, depending on how they economize, how they use Isaac Del Toro or otherwise.

16:30I mean, they might just go nuclear and might just send him up the road in the Pyrenees and explode the race. And he might win. So he's the one. He's the magic source. It's not Paul Seixas, I don't think. I think Paul Seixas will be in a battle of his own, maybe for the podium and be doing his thing, unless I've completely misjudged it. I think the really interesting rider is Isaac Del Toro in the worst mix. I think we know roughly where Lipovic will be, and maybe he won't be quite as strong as he was last year. I think we'll know where Roglic is going, right? Isn't he? I think. The Vuelta. Oh, he's doing the Vuelta.

17:05He's not going to the Tour. Fine. Okay, well, Roglic is definitely not going to finish on the podium this year. Yeah. And I think we know where Remco Evenapur's weaknesses lie. You know, I think we're all learning now that maybe Remco Evenapur isn't actually a three-week GC racer. And I think maybe this July will confirm that. And Ayuso and the rest of them, we kind of know where they all are. But Del Toro, we don't know, I don't think. It is interesting. like with the rise of success, it's happened so quickly that everyone kind of has already maybe forgotten about Del Toro, who did almost win the Giro.

17:39And I want to ask as well, in terms of like the Vingegaard aspect to this equation, as you say, like Del Toro was so strong that he could realistically finish second. Do you think that the Giro pivot helped Vingegaard in any way close the gap to Tade Pogaccia? Well, none of us know. And it's a legitimate question. It's a really interesting question, because he's not done it before. So we've never seen Wingergaard with the Giro in his legs. My hope is that it's done for him what it did for Pogaccia two years ago, and actually been a really good block of training. Because he did win it, let's face it, he did win it with a degree of comfort, the Giro d 'Italia.

18:21So his race, his campaign in 2026 has been perfection hasn't it you're not speaking it's not had a single bad day that one sort of modest performance in the individual time trial at the Giro is completely explicable when you step back and think about what kind of rider he is what weight he is the nature of that course that's fine you know he's not going to be able to produce an individual time trial like he did at the tour a few years every single time he pulls a skin suit on but in every other regard everything that he's done this year has been faultless and his Giro was faultless so we might see the best of Inger that we can see at the Tour de France, but I don't, in my heart, I don't think he's in the same bracket any longer as Tadej Pogacar.

19:03I would love to be proved wrong. You know, the notion that Jonas Vingegaard can turn it on its head again, even after all these years of these two battling and win, would be the best thing that could happen for the sport, I think. But can I realistically see it? No. But I'd love to be proved wrong. Do you think Pogacar was at all worried watching him win so comfortably, or do you think he just brushed it off? No. I don't think so. He's Tadej Pogacar. He would have been sitting in Monaco with a tuft of hair sticking out of his helmet and sipping an espresso. And he probably didn't even watch. I was about to say that.

19:38Probably looked at pro cycling stats a week later and went, oh, he won. Okay. Yeah, that's a good point. On to the route for this year, because I'm assuming you know every metre of road that will be on this. You've toured France now. You've booked all your hotels and scoped out your cultural spots. was he was starting with a team time trial in Barcelona. Now, I think the last time that there was a team time trial and a grand tour in Barcelona was at the Vuelta in 2023 when it was pitch black and some of the riders thought they were going to die. Do you think they've learned their lesson? Do you think it's going to go smoothly this time?

20:10Yeah, I mean, I think I'm by and large in favour of both team time trials being in a grand tour. I mean, they are slightly weird. They're slightly distorting, but that's fine. And there's lots of things that distort general classifications over three weeks. So I kind of like, I go with the, I don't mind the fact that they're slightly odd. They're quite spectacular. I'll take a team time trial as a spectacle over an individual time trial any day of the week. And as a commentator, my God, they're much more interesting to talk. There's actually something to talk about in a team time trial. You know, there are observable patterns of behavior within the eight riders trying to work together rather than just an individual.

20:50You know, like, I find I'm so glad I'm not commentating on any more individual time trials for ITV. So there's that. And I kind of like, I quite like, I think, you know, the rule change with the individual times, people are hating on that a lot. And I think that's okay. I actually think it's less weird than everybody getting the same time sort of thing as well. I kind of, I think it's okay. And I find it, you know, it's quite revealing of the way that the teams are working, especially on stage one. And we'll see how many teams try to keep two riders in the general classification. There we go, straight away, what's Del Toro going to do?

21:27Well, we'll find out on the very first opportunity. So I kind of like the team time trial. I'm glad it's not any longer than it is, because it could have a seriously deleterious sort of impact on some people's GC chances very early on. When you consider how much time Paul Seixas and Decathlon shipped in the Dauphiné, which was almost 10 kilometers longer, I'm glad it's shorter than that, because I think you want to keep the gaps close. Well, actually, Ned, my next question was about the individual time trials that you love so much. We saw a longer individual time trial at the Giro. Obviously, it was like a flatter route, Ghana one.

22:04Do you sort of think that individual ones should be a little bit longer and potentially more decisive in the GC, if that's even possible? because historically they used to be absolutely ridiculous, like bonkers lengths in kilometres. I'm not talking about that, but maybe, you know, nice little 40 plus maybe kilometre point. What are your opinions on that? Yeah, I mean, my opinion is really quite Machiavellian. You know, I think that you design a course, if you're Christian Prudhomme or indeed, you know, in charge of any of the Grand Tours, you design a course specifically for the peloton that you're inviting or expecting to come to your race.

22:42it's always been this way you know since the inception of this this sport people have always had one eye on who they can attract and with what result in mind right so you tweak it and i am stunned frankly that the tour de france hasn't accommodated remco even a pool more than they than they have and give him a proper chance you know so yeah i'm completely with you if i were prudhomme i would have stuck in a 65 kilometer pan flat time trial and gone come on remco here's you two minutes that you can lose in the mountains take your two minutes there and let's have a proper race between two you know different styles of general classification rider how good would that be and i don't think it would be unfair it would just be creating a spectacle giving a different kind of rider a chance because the individual time trial that they put in the race in tonne isn't it tonne on liban or something it's got a really hard climb in it and it's it's kind of like not remco's terrain he's he's going to lose time again there probably probably i think so so yeah i mean i'm more for manipulating the course design to make it closer why not because it's a weird one because it's what they did for wiggins like the amount of time trial kilometers in the 2012 tour was enormous exactly but it's just a weird thing with the sort of current crop of gc rides that there was always before you know you get one or two that were good at time trials you get your Joaquin Rodrigues, who basically, you know, was a sale, just getting, losing time every kilometer.

24:08But now it sort of seems that everyone's pretty good. I feel like the weakness maybe is Del Toro, which might throw a spanner in his podium race when it comes to the individual one. But like you say, there's a climb. Who do you see as the sort of, is there any loser from there being a TTT and an ITT in terms of the general classification? Or is everyone, you know, they'll be all right? I think they'll all be okay, won't they? Ayuso, Ayuso, I don't know. Ayuso's beaten Gunner on a time trial before. Yeah, that's also true. That's also true. I mean, it shouldn't really be a mystery, should it, that the GC riders are really good individual time trialists.

24:45Even the guys who we used to worry for and about when they were 10 years ago in that peloton when you had Naira Quintana shipping time in an individual time trial. But then you look at the results that he did in an individual time trial and he'd regularly finish in the top 30, you know, of 170 riders. So they're not bad. Even the ones who aren't very good are really not bad as testers because they've got the engine. But what's, you know, with the exception of Filippo Ganna, Josh Tarling, there aren't, what's changed is the GC riders now are the best time trialists in the world. You know, whereas the kind of era of Fabian Cancellara and Tony Martin, David Miller, you know, taking the individual time trial and then not doing anything else really in the race is kind of behind us a little bit.

25:39So, yeah, yeah. I mean, Pogacar, innit? He'll take time everywhere and he'll take time in the individual time trial. Maybe not in the team time trial, though. So that's, you know, that's much more open. I don't know who's going to win the team time trial. Decaflon, why not? So the Perineers, they hit early and a Grand Tour favourite Poe on stage six. We've got the Cold Aspen, the Cold Atomaly. In terms of early action in a Grand Tour, I'm all for it personally. I think it's a bit more interesting than just, say, almost every stage being a flat stage. It mixes things up. Do you think that's, with the strength of Pogacar, now potentially detrimental to this sort of, I guess this edition of the Grand Tour because what if he gets a lead so early that everyone's like, oh, well, it's done.

26:34But now I've talked myself out of it because there's a great fight for the podium. So what do you think, Ned? Well, there's only one rider who can answer that. You know, you think back to last year and actually Pogac was quite patient, wasn't he? You know, he pounced on the Otakam, which was into the second week. And remember last year, we had 10 days, I think, of racing before the first rest day. It was almost unprecedented. so half the race was gone before he made his big move so he was quite he was quite patient when you compare to his approach in previous years of just getting it down early doors that was the race whichever year it was two years ago wasn't it that started in Florence where you know the Galibier was where he made his move for that stage that was that was similarly early on wasn't it that was stage four or something um so I don't know you know that's I can't predict how he's going to race it but I slightly disagree with you I don't love the fact that they've put the Pyrenees in so early and it's again it's quite a cursory visit to the Pyrenees.

27:30They dip a toe in. Yeah I actually I actually think that last year the stage to Boulogne and a few of those stages in the early week before that it got super flat were actually really good and I think putting a few more of those sort of fiddly little stages with potential pitfalls and opportunities for Van der Poel to race Pogacar, you know, is actually kind of more interesting than just slapping a great big mountain stage in early doors. You know, mountain stages consistently underwhelm, don't they? Let's face it, they just do. The Giro had, what was it, five summit finishes, Winger Goal won all of them, and Felix Gauw finished second in all of them.

28:14With those, we really are sometimes into the territory of can you just email us the results and we'll just spare spare us the bother of watching it and certainly commentating on it you know my heart i was watching um tnt's coverage of the dauphine the other day and my my heart sank for poor rob hatch when del toro moved at nine kilometers to go because i i feel his pain you know what can you say about del toro for the next nine kilometers and they are like what was the last truly thrilling big mountain stage i suppose it was the Giro when Simon Yates won. Yes, I would probably agree with that one.

28:48And at the Tour de France? Probably when Pogacar cracked. I can think about the women's Tour de France, but maybe not the men's. Yeah, I think that's a very good point, but the men's Tour de France, you know, they're never the best stages. End of. And especially with the all-rounded nature of Tani Piazza and as you say Van der Pol at the tour where do you stand on cobbles they're a bit like Marmite some people love it some people hate it Chris Froome in 2014 hated it but do you think that in order to win a grand tour you've just got to deal with them or do you think they're sort of an added unnecessary risk um god I'm a bit like that character in the fast show who sometimes who just agrees with whoever spoke last.

29:38And I can't remember what my second... Oh, it's fine. I like it because I spoke last. So I'm like, yes, that's brilliant. Well, you asked me a question, but you didn't, you know, so I can't agree with you. I've just got to find an answer somehow. Because I tend to flip-flop on this one a little bit. That's fair. It's a risk, isn't it? And if the risk backfires, then you go, that was a terrible idea. But if the risk doesn't backfire, and more often than not, it doesn't backfire. You know, the race organisers get away with it, don't they? I can't think of, on the gravel stages and the cobble stages, I can't think of too many big-name victims.

30:06and then you think about 2014 tour de france which had a roubaix stage in it in the in the rain and chris froome abandoned that day but he didn't abandon it wasn't anything to do with the cobbles it was the fact that he had an innocuous crash the previous day and he was suffering from the so there haven't actually been very many decisive unless i've completely forgotten one now any decisive the tour one a couple of years ago i think was the start of roglic's bad luck with the hay bales. Oh, that was a hay bale. That was out there. Yeah, that was a hay bale, wasn't it? You know, that was just a slight narrowing in the road.

30:42And the thing I got had to be, was Van Aert had to pull him back after some bike change stuff. I feel like I've read some of Robin's writing on this quite recently. Yeah, that was pretty recent. Yeah, it was the one where they were all scattered over the road and then running in front of the car. Yeah, that was brilliant. It was also like that was a day of, that moment contributed to, I think, the legendary status of Wout van Aerts because it was that race, that edition of the race that, for me, produced the single finest performance in the history of the Tour de France. And that was Wout van Aerts' contribution because it's absolutely unprecedented.

31:13No one's won that range of stages and also been a domestique at the same time. It's just absolutely bonkers. But yeah, but then we go, there we go. That kind of comes to my point. The race organisers got away with it because actually at the end of the day, Wingergaard didn't lose time and he was rescued. Had it gone the other way, then you would have been sort of bemoaning, you would have been critical of the inclusion of that, but they got away with it. So I think you can only judge in hindsight. But I think it would be pretty tedious if every single race director just went, we're not going to put...

31:49They draw the eye, don't they? Let's face it, come on. When the race route is announced, you do go, ooh, gravel. I circle it, I love it. Yeah, so on balance, they go in, don't they? They go in and they're part of it and suck it up. So I think that we might be expecting a gravel stage in 2028 because they announced that the race will start in Rem, I believe, which is near that sort of Champagne or is in the Champagne region. So maybe they may not, but I feel like that gravel stage, most recently, I can't remember, was the year before last or last year, whenever it was, pretty sure it was the year before when Tom Pickup got there.

32:27It was a year before us. But that was a different kind of chaos where they, you know, tried to put Vingegaard under pressure. He was fine. They caught the break and then they decided they were going to let the break go. It's just a bit more entertaining to watch. Do you remember that? That was amazing. You had that big breakaway full of like really quite good riders. I can't remember who was in it, but there were some proper sort of like breakaway specialists in that group. Some of the strongest riders in the bunch. And then Pogacar, Evenapool and Vingegaard just noodled up. Mad. You know, and just hung around for a bit and then went, oh, we'll sack it off now.

32:56and it must have been so dispiriting for the other right. Like, A, yeah, fine, thanks for letting us go, but also just to have demonstrated the difference in class between... That we can let you go. And the way that they just drifted across to the front, went, OK, we're here now, bye. And then, you know, like, it's mind-blowing how much better they are than everybody else. So, fun pub quiz fact. The processor in the Hammerhead Karoo bike computer is about a thousand times faster than the one that put man on the moon. And it also has 64 gigs of storage to store global maps and ride data, which is literally a million times more than the Apollo 11 guidance computer had.

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36:33Looking forward on the route we have I feel like the Pyrenees have probably got a bit of an outcast because we're going to the Vosges. But then the sort of headline, well, the real headline, is that there's back-to-back stage finishes on Alpe d 'Huez. Not two climbs up Alpe d 'Huez, it's just one up the normal one and one up the Seren, but finishing at the top. And obviously you mentioned you're going to be there. Will the race have already been decided by then? Is it going to be a bit of, all right, it's Alpe d 'Huez now? A couple of breakaway wins? Yeah, I think the race probably will have been decided by then.

37:04Listen, that's my least favourite mountain in in the world i can't i can't detest that place why why do you why do you hate alp du hues have you ever been there i have never had the fortune of cycling up it yeah yeah yeah it's just a it's just it's just an ugly place that you know it's just a real example of how humanity has ruined nature alp du hues is kind of like it's just ghastly and i'm what's your favorite as well what's my favorite climb montventu no nowhere come i mean i've i'm i'm much much fonder of the pyrenees because i think uh that their their little towns and villages if you think of bannier de luchon uh bannier de bigore those places they are real places with stone-built churches and houses and little streets they've existed for hundreds of years they've got you know they are built around farming communities and the hard mountain life over many centuries they're not concrete sort of monstrosities built in the 1960s for the for the skiing tourist industry which a lot of the alpine resorts are and and yeah so i'm a big i much prefer the pyrenees but of all the climbs i think vontu stands alone i mean it literally stands alone doesn't it because it's so isolated i love that mountain absolutely adore it what um what so what stages have you got a circle in your calendar as being like the ones that you're looking forward to the most thanks so we know it's not out to us now yeah it's definitely not it's definitely not out to us i think i'm looking forward to the the couple of stages around the first rest day in the massive central i think massive central stages are always interesting possibly because they're the first you know you've got a bit of clarity in the general classification you get your first big breakaway days and you go you know it'll be a ben healy day or something like that or a quinn simmons day or you know i like them i think they're interesting and maybe a bit of a gc battle behind so i always like the massive central i think it's beautiful and underrated and and really really hard uh racing so that intrigues me and i'm also looking forward to paris because um i think that it was again you know we're talking about sort of risk and reward i think it was a risky decision to and it was again i i misjudged that completely last year i was sort of railing against the changes and I thought it was really unfair on the sprinters to have their big moment taken away after all the suffering through the Alps but actually when it came to it I thought it was a real spectacle I thought it was brilliant and obviously it's here to stay any doubts that the peloton had about the safety of the that race given how narrow that climb is and everything I think they were dispelled last year when they had a wet race and nobody crashed so they can't even complain about safety and yeah it'd be really interesting to see if it's a similar script to Paris or with a similar sort of a result or whether it's raced completely differently so yeah I'm looking forward to Paris.

39:56And in terms of Bastille Day now if we take success out of the equation who are the French riders that you think could really make themselves known on that because that's going to be like we circle a lot of things you might as well circle the entire Tour de France But French riders, Bastille Day, who do you think is looking at that going, I could realistically do something there? Where are they on Bastille Day? You'll have to tell me that much. What is it? Oh, it's Mountain Stage. Le Lioran. I was thinking a Parrain Pantre. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, it does look a very Parrain Pantre-y sort of a day, doesn't it?

40:37And he's exactly the kind of rider who would... He's like a turbocharged. He's like a really, really good Pierre Roland, isn't he? Who doesn't miss the move. He gets in the breakaway. So I think that's a great shout. I think Paris Pintre would be a really good candidate for that. Baudin was impressive, wasn't he, at the Dauphiné? I have him down as his career progresses as a bit of a Giulio Ciccone type figure. I think he could turn into that kind of a rider. But, you know, across the piece, I mean, who knows? Vauclain might have dropped out of GC contention by then. and you might see him on the move.

41:14But I think across the piece, something good is happening with French cycling for the first time in a number of generations because it's not just the climb-y types and the GC riders. You've got Paul Manier as well emerging as right up there alongside the very fastest men in the world. And that's really good for the race. It's good for cycling full stop that the French are on a real uptick in terms of what they can achieve, and both for the women and the men as well, because I think Pauline Ferrand-Prévot will go into the Tour de France-Fam as a real hot favourite to take that race again. Yeah, I think she won again.

41:51Do you think Sexass being the guy takes the pressure off everyone else? I feel like someone like Lenny Martinez would be like a classic fallen hero. They would never quite live up to expectation if he had the sort of the mantle on his shoulders. Yeah, he needs to get some results, doesn't he, Lenny Martinez? is he feels like after, he's still very young, but after all that blistering start to his career, it feels like it's plateaued just a little bit. And what you don't want to be as a French rider, I think is David Godou. You know, like that's the rider you don't want to be. And I really hope that Martinez can get over the line.

42:30Godou in his whole career never won a stage of the Tour de France. It's sort of tied. He did finish fourth overall. David Godou. Yeah. The silence. Lots of riders have finished fourth overall. And, you know, a lot of them will be forgotten forever. Savage. You briefly mentioned Vaucalan. From a, it'll obviously be a large majority of our audience, probably British, and looking at what net company Ineos' chances are this year's Tour de France. It kind of seemed like we're on a good track. They look, riders look strong. They made some good signings. They've got Geraint Thomas in charge. Brailsford's back.

43:08but then the not Dauphiné didn't really go very well it didn't go to plan no but it's hard to you know it's a bit like the sexist Dauphiné I don't know what to make of it really because it all fell apart really um although I did enjoy the kind of histrionics in the team time trial with Vauclain um objecting to yeah that was good wasn't it it was good wasn't it it was like it was a little bit Movistar. I quite enjoyed it. So I quite like the idea of, I mean, I don't expect them to do masses at the race if I'm perfectly honest. It's not a Movistar trident, is it? It's a kind of two-pronged assault on fourth place.

43:48Are you forgetting about Carlos Rodriguez? That big hope, big money. I've literally forgotten about Carlos Rodriguez. But I have to say, they do have a knack and they do have a way, and they do it at all the Grand Tours of sort of coming away with enough in terms of results. They just about do enough somehow with, I mean, kind of quite a mediocre crop of riders, relatively speaking. They've got no riders apart from Filippo Gana in their roster who are genuinely on the top of their game, or even close in terms of their standing in the peloton, which is unimaginable for that team. But they do, yeah, they're well managed and they are sort of on the trajectory that's heading in the right direction, but it's tiptoeing in the right direction.

44:36Because it's a tricky one, because I feel like they were definitely targeting the team time trial. They could have won the team trial if not. If they're all riding for one team time overall at the Dauphiné, they probably would have won that and not waited for it only. Yeah. But now Tarling's out because of the crash he had at the Dauphiné. Only almost fell into a ravine and ended up hanging by a tree. who knows whether he'll even race or if he does, what kind of stuff that puts to his proven. Yeah, their team time trial is historically something of a mystery, isn't it? Because individually, they always perform brilliantly in the individual time trials.

45:18Even their riders who are not riders you'd consider to be individual time trial specialists. They just, Sky, Ineos, they just make riders fast in the individual time trial. And yet their collective, I mean, it's not much of an evidence base, is it? Because team time trials are so few and far between. But their collective record over the last 10 years is pretty modest, actually, in team time trials. They don't win very often. But I think you're right. I think the evidence of the Dauphine suggests that they could take the yellow jersey on in Barcelona, which would be. There we go. So we talk about they always come away with something.

45:51Well, if they can do that, that's fine. That's it. That's their Tour de France, really, isn't it? if they can take their first yellow jersey and hold it for a little while. Just looking at the provisional style for the race, which can change, but looking at Net Company's team, Ganna, who I assume he might have been in there anyway for the team time trial, but he'll definitely be needed now. There's no tarling. Carlos Rodriguez, who was in the Dauphiné team and did have a couple of okay finishes from the breakaway and obviously was fine in the time trial. Kriotkovsky, you know, always good. I feel like he's always good.

46:24Vokalan, good time trialist, as we saw. still good god on who has been very good this season and could definitely take a couple of stages he's been brilliant no he has been properly brilliant yeah currently on the list is team and aaronsman who yeah had a good year and a very good time trial so there could still be something there i mean there will be something there but i'm not quite sure what it is that they're going to do except for team in ironsman will win stage 17 from the breakaway or something you know that that's kind of like that's about the measure of it isn't it and i wanted to ask you as well about little trek i think obviously they're trying to find their footing as a gc team not just you know Mads Pedersen and Milan and winning stages.

47:16Sort of maybe things didn't go quite right at the Giro in terms of how they maybe would have liked their riders to be presented on the road. But they came away with something. So in the end, it worked out fine. How do you kind of balance the Ciccone aspect as maybe the most interesting one? Because he's sort of in the middle. like he will work for GC kind of but he'll go for like the stages or the mountains jersey and like Derek G's over here like trying to make up time yeah how do you see them balancing this in the future as well because they're thinking of are they thinking of getting Felix Gould did I read that right somewhere as well and it's like it feels like they're just throwing paint at the wall at the moment and seeing where it all lands and they've got away you're right they got away with it at the Giro d 'Italia they left it very late though didn't they because Ciccone was banging his head against a brick wall for most of the race and then found the key to unlock success eventually although he would have swapped the mountains jersey for a stage victory 100 % and then Milan just I mean the sprinters at the Giro were so unfortunate weren't they just day after day it didn't work for them um so I think it was it was wonderful that Jonathan Milan won the last stage in Rome because he deserved it.

48:35So they kind of got away with it. But about Ciccone, can we just move on from this entire conversation about Giulio Ciccone? Because it arises, particularly at the Giro, but even when he goes to the Tour de France, every single time he goes to a Grand Tour, people say, well, GC for Ciccone, he is not a GC rider for a Grand Tour. He has never finished in the top 10. It's not what he does. so can we just not have that conversation about Giulio Ciccone ever again he's very very good at doing what he does but it's not GC if you think about his initials GC yeah that's a very good observation but I kind of like I thought they had an okay Dauphiné I must admit and the sort of the polemic the narrative about Scalmosa's reaction to Ayuso's addition to the squad seemed to be very well managed.

49:33You know, Scalmosa did a lot of work on behalf of Ayuso and he had a really good race, I think. And Ayuso, there were positive signs, I think, for Ayuso. Is there a hope this year that the Polkadot jersey might go to someone that's not Tadej Pogacar? I feel like with early mountain stages where he might not want to let the race go, maybe there'll be a breakaway wins at Al Dues when it's decided. there's been two riders who have publicly said that they're targeting it in Bantan Paripantra. Who was the other one? Paripantra and who? Lorenzo Fortunato. Oh, yeah, of course. And there are obviously more, if Ciccone goes, I feel like, you know, there's one more.

50:10And looking through the start list, there are plenty of riders who could target it. Is that too many? Yeah, it's interesting that you have riders actually declaring that they want the King of the Mountains to go. That's quite unusual, isn't it? Very rarely do riders say that out loud. It's a competition you end up being in. And then it kind of happens organically. I can't really answer that question, Will, because I haven't done enough research in terms of what's really significant is the way that they've structured the points always in every edition of the race. And without having the regulations in front of me, I don't know how backloaded it is towards the GC riders.

50:45And that's been the problem over the last few years. You think back to Simon Geschke's tears of being denied the King of the Mountains jersey that he'd worked so hard for. And then he had to have the indignity of actually wearing the jersey he hadn't won. Just rubbing it in his face. I hated it. Rubbing it in his face. But that says, you know, that Geschke story told you everything you need to know about how badly constructed the King of the Mountains competitions are these days because fundamentally misconstrue what that jersey is actually about. You know, it's not, obviously it's not for the best climber.

51:19The best climber wins the Tour de France. Can we just move on from that? it's for it's the reward for the rider who gets on hilly stages up the road you know that's what it is so allow them to win the competition they've entered you know and stop backloading it but i'm you know the reason they do that is of course a financial imperative because the sponsor of the king of the mountains jersey doesn't want lorenzo fortunato with respect to stand there in paris wearing his jersey they want tadej pogaccia to wear their jersey so they can put it in all their pamphlets and their leaflets and tell everybody about it.

51:52And that's what we've paid 3 million euros for. So that's the reality of it, isn't it? But I do hope that they've adjusted the way the points are allocated and tilted it a little bit back in favour of the attackers. And in terms of the wildcard teams, obviously they're always out in front trying to get that airtime. But where do you stand on the Carre Rural versus Unibet Rose Rockets debate? Obviously, Unibet went to the Giro in the end. But do you think that that was the right decision to not have them at the Tour de France and to have a... Like, we know about Carre Rural. We know what they're about.

52:33Where do you stand on it? Was that the right choice? Yeah, it absolutely was. I think Carre Rural have done enough to justify their inclusion in the Tour de France, you know, in recent years. I think they've produced some really good riders. They've had some good results. They've done enough, you know. And frankly, Unibet Rose Rockets haven't yet. They don't win enough races. I know that Grunewagen had a good start to the year, didn't win a stage at the Giro, and they didn't come close to winning a stage at the Giro d 'Italia. So until they can kind of prove that they are worthy of their place, I don't think they're close enough yet.

53:05And I think they're probably still some way off. And also, I know that they were founded by Baz Tietema with this unusual origin story. But now they are a team like any other team. I mean, they are sponsored by an international betting company. There's nothing really that unusual about them any longer. There was, but there isn't. They're just a team. And that's how they need to be judged, you know. Yeah. In terms of the other jersey, the sprinters, well, points jersey, we'll see if Pogaccio wins that one as well. how do you rank the the crop of sprinters that we've got this year's race who do you think will be coming out on top who's declared that they're going malia phillipson pederson maybe coy maybe not coy yeah he's playing coy sorry um uh delay but you probably don't need to worry about him yeah yeah i think i think it's really interesting the sprinters competition i think it has been for a long time because none of these riders who we've mentioned whether it's philipson or malia milan or now manier seem able to dominate for very long you know they they can hit or coy as well they can hit hot periods of form but they'll last half a season or something and then someone else will take over and it's been that way for quite a while hasn't it so i think probably the last sprinter who was able to actually dominate for a period of time going stretching into years was Marcel Kittel and before him, obviously, Mark Cavendish.

54:34But after those two, it's been a really kind of fluctuating field. And you've had riders come and go like Caleb Ewan, who's now obviously retired, who you look at him and you think, he should be dominating now. But none of them seem able to do it because the competition is a lot more fierce. I think probably Jasper Philipson is the fastest rider. And I think he does have that advantage of the team that he rides for, and in particular the lead-out rider who will once again work for him, which does make a hell of a difference when he's on it, doesn't it? Mathieu van der Poel is the lead-out rider.

55:10So my money is on Philips and I think for the green jersey. Would you say that it's a bit more of an even playing field with Jasper Sturven helping Malia in terms of a lead-out? He was nothing short of brilliant in the Giro d 'Italia, Jasper Sturven, and he made the difference over and over again for his new team. Malia is a rider, though, I think, who's kind of good enough to do it. You know, I don't think he really depends on Jasper Stoven in quite the same way that Paul Manier, who's a much younger, less experienced rider, sort of at times depended on the contribution of Jasper Stoven. I think Malia navigates his way around the bunch instinctively pretty brilliantly.

55:51but so yeah I mean they'll share out the wins won't they Malia and Philipson I just said they're kind of like probably head and shoulders above the rest yeah it's one thing that Malia doesn't ever really target the green jersey either he just sort of lets everyone go about the intermediate sprints and save himself at the end which is probably quite wise works out yeah it works out right yeah are there any other riders who you've mentioned Healy and Simmons Healy obviously coming off the back of a bit of a time away if it was an illness or a crash and Simmons obviously in form because he won a stage at the Tour of Ernest Rhone Alps to give it its official name, formerly the Dauphine.

56:27Are there any other riders who you think are going to make their name, or like Healy did last year and be really prominent at the front of the race? Good question. You have to look for the middle tier of teams to identify that kind of rider, don't you? Because they're not going to emerge from any of the super teams, the GC teams. So it is the kind of riders from the sort of EF variation, or even, you know, with respect, Net Company, Ineos, they're almost in that bracket of teams that you look to to find the breakthrough rider. I'm just padding for time here because I can't think of anyone. I can't think of anyone.

57:04But in a way, that's the point, isn't it? You know, you look at the example of Jonas Abrahamsen and his contribution over the last few years at the Tour de France. No one really saw that coming until the Tour two years ago. And then he confirmed all his class last year. So I don't think, you know, if we'd rewound and done this podcast two years ago, I don't think anyone would have said Jonas Abrahamsen. But that's what happened. I'm going to quickly run through the start list. I'm going to read a few names who stand out to me. Go on. You can tell me. You can answer your own question then, that's great.

57:35I'll just agree or disagree. Yeah. Yeah. No one from Alpsen. Bahrain, Mohric's passed it, but Peo Bibao's retiring this year. Still a good rider, has some good results this year. Stage win for Peo Bibao? No, I don't think so. I would like to see it. Yeah, I think we'd all love to see it, but I can't visualise it. In 2026, it feels like his legs aren't quite there for him any longer. Odekaf, I'm going to let anyone have anything other than working for Sexass. Tish Beno, Dan, Hauler, Stefan Bissker. Not initially, they'd be mad, wouldn't they? But it depends what happens to Sexass' race, I suppose.

58:09EF, currently Healy, Askren, Carapaz, Bodan. Yeah, Carapaz to do something? Not on GC. Could he go for the polka dot jersey? Yeah, yeah, that's a good shout. I like that. I like the sound of that. Why not? I feel like you'd probably rate him over a Fortunato or a Paripuntra. I think he's, yeah, I think Richard Carapaz is a dynamite racer. I love watching him race. He's unpredictable, but he's, you know, he's one of those rare beasts that can race a grand tour as if it was a series of one-day races, and I really like that. He's lit up and animated the Giro and the Tour over recent years. He's not done much this year, has he, Carapaz?

58:50I'm trying to think what he's... Yeah, I think he was meant to be at the Giro. Yeah, and it didn't show. Yay, Paul Bell. So... I think my favourite Carapaz one was when he finished on the podium with Pogaccio and Vingard, and they were all looking at him. I don't know if it was a Vontu stage or one of the others. They were looking at him. He was putting a really big pain face. And as soon as they look away, he was in tax. Yes. That's pure Carapaz. Yeah. We don't need to talk about Groupon or FDJ because the current stylist is Godou and Guillaume Martin, so that's pretty relevant. We've spoken about Netcompany.

59:21Little Trek are probably going to be a mix of working for Iuso and Pedersen, so I don't think they'll get a go. Although Quinn Simmons will have a go. Yeah, he's hardly an unknown quantity, though, is he? But he's obviously in really good form. Leonard van Eichveld, is he going to save Lotto's Tour de France? Well, he started well at the Giro d 'Italia, didn't he? Van Eipfeldt. He could get a... Yeah, he could have a really good race, actually. He could end up in the polka dot jersey. Why not? He's another one. Movistar is interesting for me. Might not be interesting for most people. Keanu Oterbrooks had a pretty good Dauphiné.

1:00:03Yeah. Aino Rubio, he does what Aino Rubio does. Probably going to have a scrap with Chikone on one of the days. Is Ivan Romeo also good, another potential stage winner? Yeah, super talented rider. So, yeah, they actually, year on year over the last few years, Movistar are producing more and more convincing teams, aren't they? They become good to watch, actually, rather than just slightly amusing to watch. Benjam Goma, is he competitive with sprinters? He's not shown us that he is for quite a while. But then again, none of us saw his green jersey. year really coming um so if he arrives in that team yeah yeah red bull currently have 20 riders on their start list so i'm going to skip over that i know that's outrageous but maxim van hills had a had a great definite i think that's worth yeah he did worth pointing that one out jaco michael matthews coming off a pretty big injury so probably not necessarily expecting much from him luke plapp They've lost their way a bit, for me, Jake O 'Lula at the moment.

1:01:06Mauro Schmidt, though, is having some good stage race results this season. He was second at the Tour Down Under, Home Roads. He won the coffee bar tally just off the podium at the Tour of Oman. I feel like he's always putting together good results, but then you have someone like Ben O 'Connor in the team and you kind of get overshadowed because then it doesn't work out for Ben O 'Connor and by that time it's already too late, I think, for Mauro Schmidt. Yeah, and he's an interesting rider, isn't he? Because he falls between a few stools physiologically. And so the range of stages and race situations in which he can thrive is quite narrow.

1:01:44So he's got to be super, super targeted about when he gets up the road and which kind of like, if that makes sense, it's sort of like when he's picked the right move on the right day with the right kind of form, he is a winner and you could really kind of see him winning a stage of the Tour de France. It's just those opportunities, you know, on the big mountain days, he's not going to be able to live with the best sort of breakaway specialist climbers. And then if he's on a sort of Mathieu van der Poel-y sort of a day, he's going to be beaten by Mathieu van der Poel, you know. So it's kind of like, it's quite hard for him to find the key to unlock success.

1:02:18But he's good to watch and he's an exciting rider. And yeah, he's probably their best chance of sort of success in some ways. yeah I'd like him for a sort of a gravel stage breakaway which we're not going to get this year there's no point talking about picnic because they are not good Wisma all in for Wingergaard yeah but I mean all eyes on Wart van Aert again you know yeah what's he going to be able to do this year because like Paris-Roubaix winner took that stage at the Dauphiné first bunch sprint for two years I think although it was a Dauphiné bunch wasn't it so it's all relative but um yeah, he just carries the entire wishes of the cycling public on his slightly curvaceous shoulders, doesn't he?

1:02:59I think he'll hopefully ride into form. I know he had that training crash pre-Dauphiné and they were saying that's what it probably was. But I don't know, it's just a Tour de France without a Sean Wout van Aert. It's a bit weird. It feels like something that shouldn't happen. You know, maybe we pause the Tour de France until he's back. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Think about last year, without Wout, Pogacar wins in Paris. Very different prospect. Also on Visma, I mean, really the thing is whether they will go straight into the lead on the team time trial because it's pretty good. I mean, they won the Dauphine one, didn't they?

1:03:37Ben Tullet in the squad. He's come on very well. I feel like we're still waiting for him to take the next step. Do you think this is a good year to show really the bigger cycling fandom what Ben Tullet is really about? Yeah. I mean, what is he now, 24, something like that, Ben Talitz, maybe 25, I don't know. He's had his move from Ineos to Visma. It was a slight hiatus in his career while he had a few, I think, off the bike, a few issues to kind of address and get through. So I think, yes, I think he's had a couple of years of good health and increasing form. And I think that's a good shout. I think this is the year where, and he's got, I don't think he's ever been handed quite the responsibility that he's got as well of being one of the absolutely key lieutenants for Jonas Wienergaard because as I think the quality of the riders that support Jonas Wienergaard is gradually diminishing a little bit I think I feel I think Ben Tulloch's status within that field is kind of like rising as a consequence and I think he's a super talented rider so I'm looking forward to seeing how well he does What is the seething for Tobias Holland-Johannesson?

1:04:50Yeah, well, that caught everybody by surprise at the final stage of the Dauphiné, where he nearly, like the cameras had completely missed him, and he really wasn't too far behind Juan Ayuso on a big, what was it, 14-kilometre climb right at the end of the Dauphiné, which suggests that he's actually probably the GC rider who goes into the Tour de France the most underestimated and could actually do a really strong general classification and could be threatening the podium places. He just seems to be learning and getting better and better really quite rapidly over the last year or two. I'll skip off for this because Giannis Aguirre, as Robin knows very well, has had some really good results this year.

1:05:32Alaphilippe, he's not going to do anything, is he? No. I mean... Trying to convince yourself. Yeah, I was trying to, again, you know, a bit like Peo Bilbao I was just trying to imagine what it might look like with his arms in the air yeah two more personally for me I've got an eye on Jordan Jaeger did he sneak into the top 10 or maybe just missed out on the top 10 last year I think he was top 10 yeah potentially moving to another one that's linked with Little Trek although his team manager said that if he signs a contract he's not going to the Tour de France so we'll see if he's even there he should be going for the polka dot jersey for me yeah i don't i i mean yeah i mean he's one of those riders i haven't really got a sense of who he is yet as a you know how what where his ceiling lies in terms of potential so i'm going to put his tour de france down as a as a learning exercise for him and uh for all of us but he's now you know he's a marked rider and he this time last year he kind of wasn't so he's definitely one to keep an eye on so the two riders and this is the last one we go to.

1:06:41Two riders on Pinarello, Keith 36.5's team. Tom Pidcock, Fred Wright. Yeah. How do they do in this Tour de France? Well, Pidcock's the... I mean, Fred, we know what we're going to get from Fred, I think, battling away. You know, he's going to be off the front a lot, and he's probably in a sort of slightly Maro Schmidt way. He's going to pick the wrong breakaway to be in a lot. You know, and it's going to be quite frustrating to watch. He's such an honest rider. Obviously, it would be fabulous if he could get himself that long four victory. Still only got one win to his name, hasn't he? And that was at the British National Championships in Saltburn.

1:07:20So, yeah, I mean, but Pidcock is the fascination, you know. What does he do now? I remember being, I was in Girona during the Vuelta, at the beginning of the Vuelta last year when it started in Italy and bumped into his dad and had a coffee with Giles Pidcock, his father. And I said, how's Tom getting on? and Giles was basically kind of off the record saying, well, he's just waiting for his general classification race to fall apart. You know, and then, you know, it obviously didn't. And he discovered his general classification legs for the first time. So if he goes in with the same attitude, that'll be interesting.

1:07:56Really interesting and really good to see. And I think his form is a little bit unknown, isn't it? So it remains to be seen how he fares. That's a really good subplot, isn't it? It's a sort of tough year for him to then be trying to develop on that GCLEX with so much competition. Because, you know, is Tom Pickcock happy with 10th in the Tour de France? Yeah, it's a really good question. I mean, historically, he hasn't been, has he? He's not wanted to fight for 10th. But maybe that's changed now. You know, maybe the Vuelta experience has actually flicked a switch. And we will see him dedicate himself for the next year or two.

1:08:28But it's the Tour de France peloton, isn't it? With respect to the Vuelta, it's just such a gulf apart. You know, the names you've just reeled off, it's pretty terrifying, really. So, Ned, if you had to lock in the podium, the top three, I feel like you're going to say Taddy Fugaccia, and I think that you will say del Toro second. Who? Who's in, is... Vingegaard. Del Toro. Is Vingegaard getting that third place for you, or is someone else going to surprise? I mean, you forced me into saying del Toro second, but I mean, that's a terrible prediction, but I'll stick with it. It's not going to happen, but it's kind of an amusingly...

1:09:09It's fun to say. Yeah, it's fun to say, so I'll say it. It's wrong. I know it's wrong, but let's go with it. Pogacar first, del Toro second, yeah, Wingergaard third. Yeah, that's the way it's not going to end. I feel like we're dangerously underwriting, yeah, there's Wingergaard now, two-time Tour de France winner. Yeah, I mean, that's why it's a nonsense prediction, but I had my arm bent, didn't I? But yeah, yeah, Joran Sviggaard second is what will actually happen, but it's much more fun to say del Toro second. How long will it be before Sexus wins? Three years. What is it now? 2026. He will win the 2029 Tour de France.

1:09:46After Pogaccio's retired following the Olympics? Yeah. Yeah. And for you, Ned, obviously Tour de France is so soon, but what is the beauty of the Tour de France for you? I actually don't know what else to do with my life in July. It's just so, like, the most heartbreaking thing about ICV announcing that they were going to pack up their bags and leave the Tour de France was this terrifying notion that I would somehow be in the United Kingdom in July. and yeah I just couldn't I don't know what happens in July in the UK so for me France in July it's just golden isn't it and even the Dauphiné just to see France as you approach the end of the middle of June and everything just laid out like that and the hay bales are already getting stacked up in the fields and you know we're getting ready now it's a month it's a race like no other so it's impossible to encapsulate which is why I've written about nine books about it already so how's it going to feel not commentating are you just going to be commentating to yourself while you're watching it yeah I'm going to do you know what the longer time has gone by the more cross I feel about the decision I'm going to miss it an awful lot I'm going to miss my job so clearly I'm not going to commentate to myself I'm going to listen to other people comment I'm going to listen to France Television Marion Rousse and Vecler and the rest of them which is a great way of consuming the race actually in France but it's going to be mighty strange.

1:11:19I'm going to be watching it in a bar most days or a cafe with David Miller, just the two of us just sitting there side by side, not talking. It's going to be very, very odd. I'd quite like to see a picture of you and David Miller in the polka dot jersey shirt and bucket hat. Yeah. That's what I'd quite like to see. Let's get Ned in a bucket hat, everyone. Come on. I will get, I'm going to, oh, I'm going to absolutely love seeing the publicity caravan come past. Yeah, you'll love it. because I've never been able to do that. So I'm going to be wearing everything that I can possibly scrounge off the publicity caravan.

1:11:52It's going to be great. Actually, I'm going to see the publicity caravan come past once and then I'm going to avoid it for the rest of the Tour de France because basically it's hell on wheels, isn't it? What am I talking about? So this year, Ned, everyone can find you on for the love of cycling across podcasts, platforms and YouTube and social media. There's a lot of clips. I've already seen all the clips going around from the Jiro and Post Jiro. post-women's Giro, stuff going around. You've got all sorts of cycling. Yeah, and worth saying I'm staying out in France as well for a long time because Lizzie Dignan is coming out to join me for the entirety of the Tour de France fam and we'll give it exactly the same treatment as the race that is still not known as the Tour de France Homme and it should be known as the Tour de France Homme.

1:12:35And you'll be on Mont Ventoux, I'm assuming. Are you going to go to the top? Yeah, I've got some random plans. You know, Emily Chappell, the writer. Yeah. Yeah. We did have some random plans that in between the men's race and the women's race, Emily and I were going to go and ride up Mont Ventoux together at night. So I need to drop Emily a line and see if we're really going to do that because we had an idea that that would be fun. Oh, that's so cool. Yeah. Well, everyone look out for that. That's well cool. And can anyone catch you anywhere else? You got any more books coming? Any more shows?

1:13:08I have. TBC? I'm not doing a one-man show for the foreseeable because that's an awful lot of work but I am a long way through writing another book which I'm not allowed to talk about but it's about cycling and it's coming out this time next year so I have to submit the draft in January and yeah, and that's about it So we're keeping an eye out for that we're keeping an eye out for the road book obviously The road book's coming out Ever, ever coming out Right, Ned, well, thank you very much I'm sure all those predictions that you've just made will be exactly correct. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, no doubt about it.

1:13:42I look forward to seeing you on our screens and in our ears this summer. All right, guys. Nice to talk. Cheers.

1:13:51Well, Ned Bolting, as ever, a fantastic guest. I feel like we could just have days of Ned, but we could just get Ned on every week. Why doesn't Ned start his own podcast? Yeah, that's a good point. We should definitely listen to For the Love of Cycling once again. and we'll put a link to how you can watch that in our show notes, which is very, very kind of us, obviously. But yeah, we'll obviously be consuming Ned Bolting and friends this summer. Robin, now that we've heard about Ned, what Ned thinks of this tour of France, what are you looking forward to the most? I'm looking forward to the fight for third place the most.

1:14:26I think that's really, and that's kind of how it was last year for me, was Oscar Onley and Florian Lipovitz. that ended up being like oh my god this is so exciting going down to the wire so I think that and on one hand how success is Tour de France is going to go I don't for me obviously there's no expectations I just want him to get as Ned was saying get this one done and over and then you've experienced it and you've got over that first hurdle I don't know how long he's going to go for obviously with that Dauphiné crash and abandon I don't think getting to Paris is his finish line and I don't think it should be really yeah just see what's going on for for him I think and also guys there's also the vibes classification will be making a return so who knows who's going to win that and that's the beauty of it if you had to predict now For those that don't know, Robin, from every Grand Tour, likes to classify the riders who brought the most vibes to the experience.

1:15:30From a fan's perspective, we don't know what the vibes are like inside the peloton, obviously. Who won the Giro? The last Giro, it was Alfonso Ulaglio. Sean Kelly's favourite rider. And the last Tour de France was Ben Healy. Yeah, of course it was. Yeah, yellow jersey, Ben Healy. Who's this year? Oh, that's so hard. That's so hard. And I don't know. I simply can't make that prediction well because I didn't predict Julio doing bits at the tour. So if anyone loses their leader, look out for who's waiting in the wings, maybe is my advice there. I feel like you're always a Giulio Ciccone fan. And I feel like if Giulio Ciccone does Giulio Ciccone at this race, I feel like he's assuring to at least make the Vibes podium.

1:16:18If he doesn't argue with people again, yes. Yes, he didn't make the Giro podium. It's exciting to see him race. I think he rides... Did he get negative points for the drama of his... For that drama, yeah. I wasn't happy with it. Well, I wasn't happy with it. But he rides on a motion, which I love. And if he wins a stage, he always throws his sunglasses. I think it is interesting, that balance with stage wins versus GC versus Chikone in the middle trying to get a mountains jersey. I just don't know if that formula's necessarily working anymore even though it did at the Giro before anyone interjects but yeah so aside from Jordan Jagat at Total Energies Will who are you looking at?

1:17:04I've got to go back down the start list now I've just gone through it so many times and I literally can't remember. You went through the whole thing with Ned? Yeah I think now that I've said Jagat I think he'll be completely invisible for the whole three weeks oh this is really difficult to do on the spot the problem is the good teams take the good riders that's that's the problem we've got here Mikel Lander's back Mikel Lander's back Mikel Lander and Pelo Bilbao we've got the unction everybody do you know what so I've got I've got two two riders that I've seen here that for me are going to be ones to watch in very different ways they might not actually be very successful in what you might define as success but Dorian Godon, Net Company Ineos Solid shop He is like the one because Mads Pedersen has come for the green jersey but he's not the best sprinter he's not going to win the bunch of sprints but he's going to try and Peter Sagan his way into green through the heliast stages through the ones where the sprints are getting dropped maybe through a few breakaways if anyone is capable of matching that and beating Pedersen it's Godon he won a few stages this year he's got a good team forward doing that and well he won't be in the French National Champions jersey anymore will he by the time the Tour de France comes I don't know what the course is like for a loss yeah it will be sadly so he probably won't win anything now but I like him and the other one is Kean Oterbrooks because I'm just very interested to see how he goes I feel like he's getting some form back he was you know for a while he was the next Belgian one post yeah Evan Paul he was going to come through he switched teams about eight times but what team I don't even remember what team he started on this point was it Lotto?

1:18:49Yes Lotto very dramatically left them for Visma then less dramatically but mainly because people have forgotten about him it's now on Movistar but gaining some legs back gaining some confidence he had a good Torre van Reneapps, Dauphine It wasn't Lotto I think we're thinking of Deleu it was Bora was the one I was thinking of but then he went to Visma at least about three years. And now he's on Momister. You remember that? Anyway, yeah. I'm not necessarily expecting him to be a world beater. He came seventh at the Dauphine. But it was pretty competitive Dauphine. And looked good. Had fifth and ninth on the last two stages, which is positive.

1:19:30I just think it'd be quite interesting to see where he ends up. Not necessarily a great one for viewing. It's either good or very bad. And I hope it's the good end of the spectrum. I feel like there could be a Belgian battle here if evanipol does what most people are expecting evanipol to do which is not come third between him and kian for the best belgian which could also be quite interesting what about lennart he'll be he'll be in a couple of breakaways okay yeah but yeah that's the tour de france we're excited you're probably excited now i know robin's excited i know robin's very excited for Tour de France next year when it's in the UK.

1:20:08Yes, back in the UK. Think of all the cobble and gravel they'll get with all the potholes. I know. Amazing. I mean, they're meant to be, the women's race meant to be going over Snake Pass, which I don't think is, I feel like it's like cascading. I think it's falling apart at the moment. So it'll be interesting how they put that back together. But this Tour de France, surely they'll figure it out. Who knows? Also looking forward to the Tour of Britain going to Skegness this year that will be the one to watch put it in your diary big skag vegas on the map let's go who's gonna win skag vegas that is the real conversation we'll get to that later in the year robin thank you very much thank you will i will see you tomorrow in the cyclist office very exciting see you there uh enjoy when we'll be back before the tour de france i can't really work out what date the tour de france start i think we probably actually have another podcast before the tour do we no during the tour i don't think it'll be like the first week of the of the there you go yeah so enjoy that enjoy Pikachu winning the Tour de Swiss which will have already happened by the time this comes out anyway bye