161. Victoria Pendleton: Fear and change

0:00Robyn: It kind of pains me to admit this as a cyclist, but I rather like cars. And I think I've just been driving around in the nicest car I will ever, ever drive. And that's the Maserati Gricali, which it turns out is what happens if an Italian supercar company designed an SUV for people like me, for cyclists. Now, the Gricali is fast, like 0-60 in 4.1 seconds fast, but it is also, it's just delightful to sit in. It has the legroom of a first-class flight to Singapore. or it's arguably more luxurious inside than my own house. And yet, I kind of can't believe I'm saying it because of what it is. It's a genuinely practical car.

0:36Robyn: I could happily chuck a dirty bike in the back of it, then do the shopping, and then go and pick up the rest of the family. Now, I've been driving the electric Fulgori version, which has the equivalent of a 557 brake horsepower dual electric motor with a 360-mile range, which sounds incredibly impressive, I know. But let's just put that in cycling terms, which we actually understand. That is the same power output as 1 ,000 Tadej Pogacchas all racing Milan-San Remo at once and then racing back again. Now, as well as the electric version, there are multiple engine options too. Prices start from£59 ,990, which, when you think about it, is something of a bargain, given Pogaccha's Tour de France-winning Colnago from last year sold at auction for£143 ,000.

1:23Robyn: You could have bought two brand-new Maserati Gucalis for that. Now you can find out more and also find out where your local Maserati dealer is at maserati.com. Where else? So that's maserati.com and check out the Maserati Gricali.

1:42Robyn: Hello, welcome back to another episode of the Cyclist Magazine podcast. It's Tour de France season, but today's not a Tour de France episode. Thankfully, we're joined by Robin Davison today. Robin, how are you doing? Before we get into our interview, you are you enjoying the tour de France so far as a sort of we're two days in as we record this we're just post del Toro stage victory I'm absolutely loving the tour de France because I was right and that was Mexico's only victory yesterday so still riding riding that high but I thought it's I'm really looking forward to seeing how they implement del Toro throughout these three weeks whether he's just going to be like drilling on the front for Pogaccia or whether who can be like go ahead and be like a dangling carrot for finger guard yeah one of the on my on our cyclist predictions which you can find on the internet um i do tend to try not to pick the favorites so i have picked del toro to win the race and that's sort of the only situation unless piatch crushes which you kind of don't want to predict was that it kind of be a little bit of a set because i actually can't attack you now sorry you're in the lead kind of situation maybe it came on maybe like two weeks too early that he gifted del toro the win maybe it happened in two weeks and you got a few minutes then fine but it can still happen maybe it could develop into a Bradley Wiggins Chris Froome scenario yeah exactly Chris Froome should have won in 2012 should be five tours but and he has retired now well done Chris nice career yes congratulations Chris um before we get in there let's talk a bit about our guest today it is as you've seen in the title I don't know if people listen to podcasts without seeing the title so it kind of feels weird leaving us maybe they're on shuffle just going crazy maybe it's the next episode to come up if you're in the car and a lot of people listen to podcasts in the car i've done that before very interesting chat anyway today we've got victoria pendleton the legendary track cyclist team gb etc robin she's got a book out which is the sort of crux of the interviews talks a lot about this it's called the fear opportunity you have read the book without obviously giving too much away we've got the interview and you know the idea is that she wants people to buy the book which they should it's published by bluebird you can find in all good bookshops robin brief description of what the theater opportunity is so it's all about kind of restructuring theater but you don't have to be obviously an olympian to do this and i think the great thing is that instead of doing like a post retirement sort of analysis of her own career she's gone in a very different lane and she interviews neuroscientists psychologists and researchers to sort of deconstruct fear and help people with like the really small steps in in daily lives because people aren't going to be you know on the start line of maybe an olympic race but you will be maybe an avenue in your life wondering which way do i go i don't want to do it because I'm so scared and then this will hopefully give you all the tips you need to know but I'm very excited to talk to Victoria Pendleton.

4:47Robyn: Not being afraid of fear. What's that? Who's that quote? What's there to fear but fear itself. Is that the one you're thinking of? Oh I don't know off the top of my head. Well that's gonna be embarrassing now. We'll come back to that in the outro because there'll be a lot of people shouting into their podcast. Yeah I can hear it already. Yeah um Robin are you afraid of anything am I afraid of anything the classic would be spiders but I to get to this I dealt with like very serious anxiety for like pretty much two decades so I think this could potentially be a great outlet for people dealing with mental health as well yeah but the classic the classic spiders I don't really fear anything else I think think maybe a fear of my own personal failure again to get really deep yeah because I'm a perfectionist so if it doesn't work out first try I'm like oh no I'm a failure what am I doing how about you what do you what do you fear clowns I definitely was afraid of clowns as as a young boy I could not stand that I didn't like clowns I didn't like fireworks it was too loud I've got over those that fear I still think clowns are creepy not I bother about spiders I'm not if there's a big spider it's a bit creepy but i'm not scared of it you're a braver person than me like the fear of heights thing i'm not afraid of heights but i don't want to fall off a cliff you know what i mean that's what people say it stems from you're not afraid of heights you're afraid of falling yeah i mean i think that's rational if you don't want to die you don't want to fall off a great height anyway but what people should really be afraid of is fear itself and that's what franklin d roosevelt president of the united states said there you go there we go quick google was it i didn't hear your fingers typing so that's impressive right what people shouldn't be afraid of those is to the rest of this podcast episode because we have a great interview with victoria pendleton and you can enjoy that now

6:46so welcome to the cyclist magazine podcast the one and only victoria pendleton it is brilliant to be sitting with you today. How are you? Good, thank you very much for having me. And where are you in the world at the moment? I'm in Dorset, sunny Dorset, which is nice. Living like a witch in the woods, which is the dream. That's beautiful. I was just, well, no, I'm lying if I say I was just there. I was like on the border with Somerset. Gorgeous. So jealous.

7:16Robyn: As long as you're on the right side of the border though, Robin, it's fine. Well, yes. So we're here today to talk about your cycling career, but also the book that's coming out. I have it right next to me. It is Victoria Pendleton, The Fear Opportunity. So the book also talks about five major fears, failure, change, the unknown, being different, and death. Which one was potentially the most interesting an avenue for you to explore? Well, I guess for me, I guess fear of change was a different, because I wrote that chapter with a slightly different viewpoint. But all the experts I met throughout writing this book were so brilliant and so generous with their time, the neuroscientists, the psychologists, the developmental psychologists, they were so good.

8:06And I could have written 10 books with the information they gave me. I was leaving these calls with them going just like, wow, that's so interesting. And I felt like I was back at school. It was like every day was a learning day but probably the chapter that resonates most with me personally and me as a cyclist was fear of failure just how how much weight of expectation and and you know worrying what people how people would judge me was a big part of something I had to break through in order to sort of achieve a performance at the highest level what was it that inspired you to write a

8:40Robyn: book and especially a book like this like you get a lot of sports people that do a nice autobiography with their face on the front. And it's just like, these are stories about me. And this one, it doesn't even have a picture of you on the front. It's just straight away. No, I was really adamant about that. Do you know, they were like, we should put a picture, a small picture. I was like, no, don't do it. I really wanted this book, well, it kind of draws on my personal experiences, but I really wanted it to be more sort of universal and helpful and try and hopefully inspire people to overcome their own barriers.

9:10And humans, we have lots of fear in our life and we live in sort of terrifying times as well. And I wish I could fix that too. But I just felt with the passing of my twin brother, how precious life is, how short and how precious life is. And I really wanted to hopefully give people some courage and insight to sort of make the most of the time they have, like not to stand in their own way of achieving what they're capable of. It felt like a really positive way to sort of channel my energy, sort of moving back and doing something constructive after quite a difficult period of my life.

9:43Robyn: You've done so, I mean, even after your cycling career, I feel like it's just been so many different things that you've tried, whether that's, you know, you went into horse racing, you straight come dancing, you did SES Who Does Wins, which probably sounds the scariest of most of them to me. Just getting showered at, please, no, stop. What really, when you look back, was the thing that, I guess, when you remember it now, where fear, was there a point where that was the driving force behind things that you were doing? well I kind of like putting myself in slightly challenging and fearful situations I mean the first time I was stood in front of a thoroughbred racehorse I was like wow that's quite a long way off the ground uh that's quite high when I got one I was like wow it feels really high up here and so that was those first riding lessons I kind of hadn't appreciated how big and muscly and powerful horses look up close and I was like well this is really bizarre and all new to me however it was terrifying and brilliant at the same time I was so excited about it and instantly had a really good feeling about learning to to ride and to race and fell in love with horses entirely in that moment and have been in love with them ever since.

10:56Was it the same horse throughout your process as a jockey or were you like mixing and seeing their vibes? Yeah I actually wrote a list of all the horses I rode in that first year and I rode 92 different horses in 18 months so and some of them many many many times so I was working as an exercise rider within eight weeks of learning to ride and I'd ride like four horses in the morning and then have lessons in the afternoon so I took it very seriously like a champion mindset like I'm going to learn as much as possible and actually every horse is different their personalities are different how they react is different and you don't get on with all of them like people you have to be very patient some of them you just get on with and others are like we're gonna have to find a way to make this work and my coach said that I should try and ride many horses because each one will teach you a different lesson so I was like yes yes yes please yes please yes I'll do that do you think that was

11:54Robyn: partially because you're riding a same bike for however long I know and and we and for so many years we were sponsored by the same manufacturer so you get an updated version of your last bike and it felt exactly the same exactly the same just maybe a little bit lighter but exactly the same so yeah there was there was something wonderful about doing a sport where the brakes don't always work uh all the steering uh quite frankly so yeah it was it was a completely new experience And in the book, you speak about post-retirement hobbies and you describe them as good ideas. Where do these ideas come from?

12:35Like, what is it that sparks like a neuron in your brain? And you're like, yes, I want to be a jockey. I want to climb Everest. Where do they come from? Do you have like a huge vision board? Not really. It's quite the opposite. I think I'm just very open, like as in open to opportunities. When they come my way, I don't dismiss them. I think, well, hang on a minute. Could I? Is there a chance? I think I'm quite optimistic in many ways. And I don't, rather than immediately say, I don't know anything about that, so I won't do it all. I'm worried about doing that. It's a bit daunting. I'm more like, well, if I try it, then at least I'll know.

13:07I think it's giant fear of missing out, quite frankly. And you don't know if the next thing is going to be the thing. So I'm like, well, give it a try. And then if it doesn't work out, try something new. And if that doesn't work out, try something new. So I think I'm just a very curious person and I'm very blessed and very privileged that my cycling career has allowed me these opportunities and these introductions and these you know meetings that have kind of created this array of weird and wonderful sports yeah because I sort of noticed

13:39Robyn: obviously it's called the fear opportunity whereas most people think about fear as you know scary which obviously it is yeah but it focuses on you know how to turn that into something else I mean even there's a quote from Bear Grylls on the cover, which is, you know, I'm sure he's been in a few scary situations. At what point in your cycling career or even afterwards, at what point did you start thinking that the fear maybe is a good thing to drive me to greater success or to do things that I wouldn't have done before? Well, I think a lot of people won't realise this about me genuinely, but I am a massive introvert who has learned to become an extrovert.

14:15so even competing in front of a crowd was something I found incredibly intimidating but it's like I'm going to have to learn how to do this or speak to the media was very very daunting or just even being photographed I was so self-conscious so I have through my life choices put myself in situations where I've had to overcome things that scare me and as a consequence I think I've developed quite a skill for it in many ways because I just I've been uncomfortable like competition is terrifying and nerve-wracking and I think I was forced to overcome them and found my own coping mechanisms in many ways if that makes sense.

14:55Robyn: Was there a part of your cycling career that you think was like the peak of that for you and the peak of that anxiety because we spoke to all of it yeah because we spoke to Emma Finucane on the podcast and she spoke about being at the Paris Olympics and I think what was she like throwing up or crying every day or something that's so anxiety inducing so was obviously and you had the extra thing of competing in London at the Olympics I can't imagine the kind of I mean pressure that goes into that but what kind of feelings do you have when you're on a start line ready especially for an event that so can be so quick like a sprint are you afraid of the pressure are you afraid of you know general failure or your own expectations or just afraid that you're having to race against the enemies i think it's more than anything it's dealing with all the symptoms of the the being adrenalized and sort of being able to channel them without them overwhelming you because you just one thing i learned to do and i spoke to the sprint girls about this when i when i met with them prior to paris i was like look you've got to pretend that you've got it all under control walk in there whatever's going on smile at people, put your shoulders back, walk in like that, you know, like, you know what you're doing and everything's going great.

16:10Like you're almost like an acting. It's like trying to kid yourself that it's okay when inside you're like pure panic and anxiety. But I've personally found that by trying to sort of portray that calmness and that confidence really, really helped me almost start to believe it. So it was all acting and body language, like learning body language that kind of said I'm in control of this situation the way I'd look at people the way I put my arms on the back of the chairs next to me which is so arrogant I would never do that I'm just going to sit there and I'm just going to look straight through you I'm going to make sure I sit opposite my opponent on purpose and do all these things these learned behaviors just to sort of something to focus on just to settle the internal turmoil but I I've worn my heart on my sleeve my whole career like I've not been someone who's been shy at coming forward about the struggles.

17:03During Beijing Olympics, I was the last one to start my event of the track team. I'd watched everybody, everybody win a medal, at least a gold one. I remember one occasion I was sat watching the little TV in the village because I wasn't allowed to actually go and watch. I had to rest up alone because everybody was at the track, hugging a pillow, watching the medal ceremonies, sobbing with joy for everybody because I couldn't be there. But because you knew these people and we were having such success, I was just like crying, crying, like, it's so good. Oh, please let me be one of them too. Like, desperate, like, please don't let me be the only one that doesn't win a medal.

17:42But yeah, it's a lot. Being at the Olympics is a lot. So clearly your next hobby will be acting, Ben, because you seem to have pretty mastered it pretty well. You know, like, honestly, it was, I remember watching, I had a team follow me for a documentary before London. And I remember watching back some of the footage and it's like, wow, no, I actually do look quite intimidating, which is weird. Something I worked on really hard, but I had no idea because I was in my own little internal world. And I saw myself strutting across the track centre. I was always like, is that me? That's embarrassing.

18:20Who is this? Who is this person? and doing a good job. But yeah, it was always nerve-wracking, always nerve-wracking.

18:27Robyn: Also must have been quite a change for you from when you started in what, the early 2000s to where British Cycling ended up in 2012. How did, was that, you know, on the inside, you know, being such a big driver of that, the gold rush that came? Oh, it was so good. We had such a blast in that earlier period towards, you know through Beijing where people started to recognize us as a team for the first time ever like we're from Great Britain we are good at cycling and then I remember being at the Commonwealth Games and it was like we got this somebody was explaining to us somebody track and field was explaining it's like everyone's a bit nervous and then the cycling team arrived it's like hey guys don't worry we're gonna win some medals don't worry and we were like no we aren't like that but everyone felt reassured that was like yeah we've arrived guys we've got we've got this how difficult was it to leave that behind after 2012 with such a high it was bittersweet because i'd obviously had quite a falling out with the immediate team around me and i they had made it very clear in 2011 that my time has come to an end and i didn't have i didn't offer four years worth of performance they didn't think i had another olympics in me and that was that so I was kind of caught between a rock and a hard place and then I just kept reminding myself in the words of Kurt Cobain better to burn out than fade away so I was like I kind of accepted my fate in many ways than London and and also coming out of a home games it would be difficult to know how anything could feel that way ever again how anything could feel that good like have that crowd behind you to have such incredible amount of support from the whole country the whole nation being totally tuned into that and the fact that it'd been let's say politically economically quite a sad and down time and we kind of gave them a lift so we felt precious in some ways and valuable and nothing was going to ever replace that feeling so maybe it was best to sort of close that chapter and start a new one and I was very lucky that you know I had made enough of a name of myself to have other opportunities not everyone is that lucky and I appreciate that but But I have been very fortunate.

20:46The gods must be smiling upon me. I don't know. But I am aware that I'm one of the lucky ones. And in the book, you mention a quote from Steve Peters, the Team GB psychiatrist. And I remember reading his book when it came out. And I actually love it. He says the fact that with success comes a full stop and with failure, there's an ellipsis. in terms of failure and how you define failure what was the moment in your career that you'd learned the most from despite it not being an initial success I mean there's a lot of failure and for me personally I'm someone who remembers the things that went wrong more than the things that went well because that's my like annoyingly that's my personality trait actually it was really interesting.

21:37I, for me, after I'd finished fourth at the world championships in Stuttgart, and that was at the very beginning of my career, and then had the opportunity to qualify for Athens Olympics, no one expected me to. I'd just come out of uni. I'd been, you know, being like, I'm going to get my education first because world class hadn't really established itself yet. So I was like, I've got time. I've got to get this to fall back on. And then suddenly everything started speeding up and I was qualified a place for Athens at the very last kind of World Cups of the year and I you know having been fourth in Stuttgart the World Championships I think there was an expectation that I might be able to scrape a third and obviously I went out in the first round and I was devastated because I I was overwhelmed by the experience of the Olympics the media everything about it was just nothing I'd ever experienced before and then to go out very very quickly it's a long way to go to an Olympic Games to be out in the first round and my heart was broken and I thought is there any point in me doing this because I don't want to be just okay at it and thankfully that was the time that Steve Peters came on board with the team and when I returned from Athens we started talking about my struggles and he was like you know you can do it a different way you know we can look at this a different way this is a starting point this failure we can move on and do things differently and I was like yes please can we do that please Steve he helped me and he did help me lots and I love Uncle Steve for that I couldn't have done it without him quite frankly I genuinely couldn't and I know that sounds probably quite flippant in many ways but he allowed me to be a bit kinder to myself and not be so hard and harsh a critic I will always be a critic but maybe not quite as harsh the volumes just turn down slightly yeah that's it i've got ways of thinking my way through and around these kind of this negative self talk and things like that and and it's helped me through all aspects of my life and for that i

23:36Robyn: will always be grateful it's interesting because he's sort of to my knowledge at the time obviously i was quite young then but it seemed like he revolutionized sport really i've been people weren't really talking about sports psychologists before he came along and worked with you and also like Bradley Wiggins I feel like that was highly publicized was it interesting then at the time with that a sports psychiatrist not necessarily being like this is a normal thing we're going to do this we're going to look at you mentally in this regard rather than just as like a physical specimen did you feel any like a guinea pig at all was it pure like okay I know this is working this is right how we should be doing things I think Steve Peters he did for the first time kind of approach our more human side in terms of it isn't just about creating kind of those stereotypical sports psychologists like using imagery and all these things to sort of try and imagine what you're going to do and put yourself in the position and all these things it was more about addressing your personal wiring like whether they're learned or inherited in many ways processes and how you deal with difficult things or the language you use with yourself in general they were it was the first time I think anybody really tried to make us happier individuals in order to find a performance rather than just try and squeeze a performance out he wanted us to be more comfortable more settled more in control of our own emotions and therefore able to deliver more and you know it is an emotional place to be at the top of sport when there is a lot of expectation and you can't promise it you can't guarantee it you're going to give it your absolute all and then when it goes wrong you know you're going to have to answer the questions about it and people will criticize you it's it's a lot to deal with so being prepared and having making sense of your your own sort of mental processes is vital and I actually met a coaching expert a while back she's more life coaching and she worked with experts and militaries and executives of all sorts.

25:40And he goes, like most of us go through our whole lives, not understanding the facets of our own mental function. And it's so true. We don't, unless you spend time thinking about yourself and what makes you tick or not tick your strengths, your weakness, your core values, then you're, you go through unaware and almost naive, maybe a bit ignorant towards what you're capable of in many ways, or how you get the best out of yourself. And when you can be, I guess, so critical towards yourself, and we also know how critical the media can be, how hard is it to shut out that external noise, I guess, and also deal with the internal noise when you're a competitor?

26:23I mean, I'm very lucky that because I'm getting on in years now, I was in a world where the social media was not quite as big an aspect of my day. I wouldn't read it anyway like back in the day when we only really were on twitter didn't read it facebook didn't read it instagram didn't have one so i was lucky enough to be blissfully unaware of all that going on because it's so difficult and there's so many critics and haters out there i think you should have to pay if you're going to make a negative comment it goes to charity yeah you know what i mean you can say something positive you can say you like it you can say well done that's for free but if you're going to go and if you want to be like mean about stuff you have to donate to charity so at least i know somewhere someone is going to benefit because that seems to make it

27:13Robyn: fair seems like a really good business idea yeah yeah basically because i'm just like it serves no purpose like even to this day out of the blue i've not done anything really in the media for some time. I get like direct messages from strange guys who basically tell me what utter disappointment I am. And I just think to myself, why would you waste the time writing? I don't know you. Who are you? But you'll write something really malicious and unnecessary. It's a cruel world out there. And I don't know, I don't understand the mentality of people being so negative. I think as you get older, you get thicker skin.

27:52And as you experience more of it, you also get it gets more familiar it just is what it is people will always want to bring you down when you're doing well that's life unfortunately sad but true actually Steve Peters was very he would always explain this in a very simple way he'd say like one in five people will love you they will just hear you coming and be like yes that is my person and he says and one in five people, won't like the look of you, won't like the way you speak, will never like you. And that's that, which is fine. And the other three, they're probably indifferent. They don't hate you.

28:28They don't love you. They're okay with you. And that's cool. So if you look at the odds on the whole, you took one away. It's not that bad. Yeah, that's all right. I'll take those odds. It's not that bad, is it? Really, in the scale of things, knowing that there's a proportion of people and it's not your fault, you're not one of their people. And just putting that to one side, that's life,

28:47Robyn: unfortunately so how did you deal with that when you're in something like strictly come dancing where you're actually being affected by other people's opinions what do you mean like uh you look like a showgirl with a hangover i think craig revel story of my life really well i was doing my best choreography is really hard to remember and you know coming off the back of the olympics and going immediately into training for strictly come dancing to be honest my head wasn't necessarily in it but I love the dressing up bit oh there's so much glitter and sparkle involved oh it's so good can I just say rhinestones on the dance floor are quite slippy as well if you tread on them so yeah it was a it was a good experience and it served the purpose in me creating a transition from cycling life to life after it was a very intense and surreal opportunity to be criticized by a bunch of other people instead but yeah I know it's fun I would love to I'd actually would love to be able to dance properly.

29:46I actually would love to be able to do it, but I need a few more lessons than like three days in a week.

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31:37Robyn: going on to another sort of tv thing that seemed to quite change i don't know if that changed your life you probably want something for you to decide but when you did sas who dares wins how did being in that environment sort of change your mindset how do you deal with that well well it did change my life actually weirdly enough which is a really cheesy thing to say about tv show again i'm out surfing in costa rica when i get this email through that someone says we need someone on this show because some a woman has failed the fitness test and we need someone else to take over so I don't know who this lady is but I would like to shake her hand and buy her a drink um because although it was a really weird and crazy thing to do I thoroughly enjoyed it it felt very real from the moment they put this hood over your head and then they kidnap you but um it was tough but I think if you're an athlete and you're a trained athlete and you're tough on yourself anyway it was it's easy to do as you're told and have people shouting at you it's quite familiar I loved it I absolutely loved it it was such a raw and interesting experience and you know when you're we know this from when you're in a team environment and you work towards championships together you get this special bond with people it's they might not be your friends necessarily they might not even know you that well but there's something about bonding and suffering like just links people together so you meet these strangers you're in these really difficult gnarly situations and you're you're so cold at one point you're all like a row of spoons lying in the bottom of a truck just trying to stay warm before you go on this like night trek the stuff they don't show you on the show and you're just all hugging to keep warm in chilly you know it's snowing outside and it was just a really surreal and remarkable experience i absolutely loved it and i didn't think I was going to make it through the first day so to make it to the end was just insane I felt brilliant for it and a big shout out to uh to Wayne Bridge who was my oppo in that because he's a legend tough as nails yeah yeah and in terms of tv shows now I used to have a German shepherd and one of our favorite things to do in the night was we'd go and sit on the sofa and we'd watch the doghouse yeah together and then I discovered that you were on episode of the doghouse Victoria please talk me through everything to do with this show immediately so I um during lockdown obviously everybody was wishing and hoping they had a pet dog to keep them company because life was sucked a bit um and my mum lives alone and she was like i'd really like a dog but i don't know if i've you know if whether i'll be able to look after it by myself and maybe we could like both like co-own it and i was like yeah well i'd do that mum i'd like we've got this like i can help you i've had dogs before we can totally work so so we got asked to go on the show together it was so brilliant loved it loved that show it was a blessing because mum and i got to go to wood green and we're introduced to lilo who is a rhodesian ridgeback she is dreamy she was like kind of a little bit aloof and nervous that's to start with but she is the best dog ever and she we call her my mum's shadow because she just basically is always following my mum and she's a big dog she never pulls on my little old mum walking down the street she's absolutely licky lovely brilliant dog although she has been known to eat a whole pack of butter with the paper that's valid yeah that's it i respect that you'll do that um and also i think my mum made a big batch of pizza dough she ate that raw too um i think there was enough for like five pizzas so but she is a beautiful dog and i love animals so much she's delightful and we got to give her a new home gorgeous thank you you mentioned earlier that you spoke to the gb track team before paris is that something you do uh frequently or was that a one-off no they just invited me um one of the guys who's on the support team invited me up to speak to the women and actually you know the women's sprint squad hadn't been necessarily doing as well in comparison to the other teams and actually to be honest the women's sprint team had never had more than you know one individual doing well or it was always seen as the less important parts of the team.

36:11I always felt like I was the last on the list. And I went and had a chat with the girls and just asked them how they were feeling and how training's going. And first things first, I was so delighted to see how much the environment had changed and what they were being provided with, not just in terms of training, but in terms of education and support and lifestyle. And I was like, this is brilliant. And I'm quite envious. I would love to do that, that those kind of things more. I don't want to be a coach. I haven't got that in me. Yeah. Okay. I'm too nice to start with, I think. But being there for people, being a mentor, being someone to call up and have a chat with, if you need to, I'm going to be ferociously in your corner.

36:53That's the kind of person I am, because I'm like, especially for women, I want to be, I will always be in the corner. And, and some people might think, oh, well, you know, they're going to like overtake you or something. I'm like, good, hurry up and become bigger, better, the best updated version of a female sprinter. Like, I want your name to go down in history. You deserve that. So I just, I love the fact that those girls are doing so well. I want to see more of them win medals, more medals and really dominate the team. Like the women's sprint squad being like the A1 top number one alpha team out front.

37:27That's what I want.

37:28Robyn: yeah because how does that feel for you now looking back on it being sort of the starting point especially for women's team sprint women's track cycling in the uk and then going on to do great things at emma finucan breaking records but also knowing that beyond just the sprint and the kieran and the other events that you're also inspiring people that aren't necessarily track cyclists like i know that robin was doing track cycling after after london 2012 like there's a lot of people there that didn't necessarily become a pro how does it feel knowing that your career and you being an early pioneer of that kind of stuff has impacted so many people.

38:01Honestly, it's a huge compliment. And when people approach me and say, oh, I remember watching you and you inspired me to start cycling. I'm so glad because things in my lifetime have changed so dramatically for the better. Because I remember when I was a kid going out on the back of the tandem with my dad, if I saw another lady cyclist, it was a big deal. I was like, lady, lady, dad, dad, dad, look, there's a lady on a bike. It was so rare. And for me to go to races and actually have other women to race against was rare. I mean, I had to race with the men in a lot of my early careers. The year I was born, women weren't even allowed to do track racing.

38:34That's insane. Just for men. So the sport has come on so far. In Beijing, I had one medal to race for. There was only the women's sprint. That was it. And then to finish my career in 2012 with an equal number of medals available for men and women in the Olympics and an equal-sized team participating, 14 men, 14 women. I feel like I'm glad to have experienced that, and it's a really positive change for the sport. So there was a few of us that were breaking trail back in the day, trying to make a change, the likes of Nicole Cook and Caroline Alexander, myself coming afterwards, but I'm glad to see things are very, very different now.

39:16Robyn: And how much of the experiences, when you look back on the hardships and the stuff about fear and about the anxiety that would be involved with that do you think was worse because you're a woman in that environment compared to what a male cyclist might have been going through I think probably the hardest thing for me was the fact that I didn't really have any teammates to female teammates to relate to so I was quite isolated a lot of time more than anything so trying to fit in with something where you don't really fit in is difficult and also just I think you coach into like women and men's maybe slightly differently I would coach them slightly differently and different requirements like I took myself very seriously I was quite mature for my age and I you know I would hope and think that people would be able to read and understand that about me and I don't know it's it's all part of a learning process really isn't it takes time to develop these things and to also give athletes the best opportunity like nobody knows the answers we're working into unknown territory right through the start of my career to the end there's unknown territory and someone had to go through first and that is the way I see it you know the things and the things I had to struggle with and the fears I had and the not fitting in or trying to fit in and not succeeding anyway they were all part of a process that needed to happen to make change so I would do it a thousand times over for the next women to come through and be better.

40:45That's beautiful. And in terms of your career, something that really sticks with me is the intense rivalry that you had with Anna Mears. Was it as intense to those looking from the outside looking in? And then at what point did it transition to, oh, this girl is great. I'm inviting her to my wedding. Like we're going to talk at the track at the Paris Games. Like, how did that transition? Like, I'm fascinated. Well, it was so weird because a lot of the, a lot of it was kind of externally kind of created. Like, we're like, there's some grudge match going. There's two girls and they really hate each other.

41:28So a lot of it was kind of very much within the media. Like, if I went to Australia, the media would be really frosty with me and it was always quite difficult in the press conferences. like um and she probably experienced the same over here so it was kind of like there were people like stirring the pot hoping to see incredible fireworks more than anything it boils down to and I've spoken to her personally about this I was really envious of what she had because she was the star of that team in many ways there are a few stars but she was had she was a star with longevity and respect and her coaches treated her in a way that I was like I want that I wish I wish I had people like that ride or die people either side of me I wish it felt that way and we had when we stepped off the track we had so much in common because we'd experienced very similar things very similar years same locations all the same and also her daughter Evelyn is mad into ponies so she used to start sending me like pictures of her having her first riding lessons and I was like more more more more more you can't I can't get enough ponies cute ponies and little tiny children like a pee on a drum sat on there brilliant so I was like don't stop with pony spam like literally love that love that vibe but yeah we've got a lot in common a lot in common oh I bet it was great when you were a jockey then and you could be like now I can send horse photos yeah yeah yeah yeah it's just like it's strange because it wasn't something we created but we almost got lulled into it you know like because that was the general consensus around us but it wasn't actually our story you know like I remember being asked I've talked about this in interviews before this was in a press conference I think for I think it may have been the Olympics and an Australian journalist was like is Anna Mears a cow and I'm like what I know it was for the Olympics is that the Olympics It was a press conference for the London 2012 Olympics.

43:26And I was like, did that one actually just say that to me? Did I, like, miss the translation? Like, what was that? I was like, no. That's just such a weird thing to say to someone. Also quite, like, questionable, like, your journalistic skills, because that's, you know, would you say that to Chris Boy? That's crazy. He wouldn't say it to Sir Chris, but, yeah, just wild. That's not from me. And I guess he wanted me to say yes. Victoria Pendleton says, Anna Mears is a cow. Yeah. What was that all about? I wasn't going to fall for that, was I? That's outrageous. That's so crazy, isn't it? In 2012.

44:06What?

44:07Robyn: So do you notice that during your career then, how were the media and also coaches generally treat the men's team differently? You say that, I wouldn't say that to Chris Hoy, obviously, but. Oh, yeah. I mean, as a female athlete, like there was always a lot of questions when I got to a certain age about having children stopping to have children whether you know and it's like actually and you know I always answer the questions politely but realistically it's none of anyone's business what I do with my uterus but you know like these certain questions would be like you take them on board because that is the way it's always been and that's what we have to do but now I think it's very different because people like there are boundaries and I think more likely as well as a female athlete if somebody was to ask you a ridiculous question you'd call them out and not feel embarrassed about it whereas I think I would have been a bit like sorry about that I don't know what to say you know inexperienced and naivety and maybe not feeling like I had a voice really to say I don't agree with that or you shouldn't ask me that I'd probably do things very differently now if somebody came at me with the questions they did then but I'm not sure if people would dare in this day and age you'd hope you'd help yeah do you think athletes have more power in that respect in today's world than when you're racing i think there's definitely i think you're more likely to get people to be more outspoken about their views and their opinions um and to call stuff out but also social media has allowed people to have their own personal narrative as well so you can give your version of the story in your words if you want to it won't always be edited by a magazine or a paper and and therefore you don't really know what you're going to get or how you're going to come across.

45:44It might not sound like you. It might not really be honest representation of you. It might be someone's perception and judgment of you in the moment of stress and anxiety and it's not really a fair one. So I think having that control of your own narrative, social media, things being recorded, it's difficult to, I think you do have a bit more power to speak your mind when it comes to certain subjects. And in terms of identity, a lot of it is so tied into someone's job. And you said you are a cyclist, an Olympian and a competitor. How would you identify yourself now? How would I describe myself?

46:26I mean, that's a really tricky thing. How would I describe myself now an advocate for women always first and foremost I don't know that's a really tricky one how would you describe me now blimey I mean I think I always think of myself and one of the reasons I started writing this book was because I was like is there something wrong with me I'm like I'm like perpetually like a midlife crisis kind of spiral of activities which I love I'm not ashamed of. Absolutely. I'm very lucky to have an interesting and varied life experience. I want to be somebody. I want to hopefully be an inspiration to people to do things their own way and to not let other people sort of question or put limits on their ability because I feel like I'm living proof of that.

47:15I think I've been underestimated my entire life and I've never let any of those people hold me down and back from doing everything and anything I wanted to do.

47:25Robyn: Because that's what the book really is. You're trying to help other people and encourage them to do things that they might necessarily be afraid to do. Yeah, that's it. I want people to make the most of every opportunity they have. Because as I mentioned earlier and at the beginning, life is so short and it's so precious. And I think I have a much greater understanding and appreciation for that now after losing my brother. And most of the things that we deem threatening or difficult or uncomfortable are really not that bad if we put our mind towards getting over them or overcoming them or reframing where our concern comes from.

48:00You can probably achieve a lot more than you think you can and that's how I've lived my entire life, I think. Not being afraid because I'm like, I'm going to give this a go. Give it 100%. See what happens. You never know because the next thing you try might well be your next passion. It might just literally set your soul on fire you might meet your tribe of people who make your life seem so much more meaningful and purposeful so like don't stop yourself from the incredible opportunities and wonderful things that could be lurking just around the corner if you dare to look so what's your next passion after writing this book so i'm doing a couple of little projects at the moment and at the moment i'm developing a house as well which you may have heard some drills early sorry about that so I'm developing a property but then I am actually working on a little project at the moment and also doing some work with the Royal Marines Commandos like trying to understand female performance oh wow I've been training a bit doing some of the physical training for it which has been fun working on my pull-ups I've got a six-foot wall in the back garden to practice climbing over so yeah that's sort of and a couple of ropes hanging from the trees in the front garden to practice on too so that's what I've been up to.

49:14Robyn: That's quite interesting you mentioned about female performance because I think we saw recently Kristen Faulkner, a road cyclist, talking about how all the accessories and stuff for coaching is all it's not necessarily focused around women or around her body specifically so she was doing something with AI with her own physiology to develop her own plans. How much do you think women's sport can progress because I feel like it's so far behind on the science because men's bodies in sport especially have been studied for so long and it's actually such a recent thing that maybe we're going to adapt training methods and nutrition and things for women.

49:51Robyn: How far do you think there is still to go in understanding what women are capable of, especially in sport? Well, I think the performance of women is on an ever-increasing sort of trajectory because sports science is a relatively new science. It's only been around really since the 80s. The majority of data fields are male-only data in nearly all of the physiology and exercise physiology because they provide more stable subjects without hormonal kind of fluctuations. So a lot of the data could be very false. A lot of the things we believe about training could be completely inaccurate when it comes to a woman's body.

50:28And it's going to take time in order to understand, to develop models and to appreciate the intricacies of female and male training. And I think there has been a lot of endocrinology done generally in studying hormones and impact on training. And through the research that I see and the stuff online and papers that have been published in medical journals, there is a movement towards getting there. But we are so far away. We are hundreds of years behind, it feels like, in many ways. All science, maybe many hundreds of years. But, you know, we literally, if you think about it, we are at least 40 years behind with women's sports science, which is a long time to catch up with.

51:09That's a lot of time to catch up with. That's a lot of cultural changes to be made. And they take even longer. So there is still a long way to go. So actually, it's kind of exciting in many ways that the scope for improvement is probably unimaginable right now. Who knows? make the races longer and harder and let's see what happens so when you're looking at that are

51:32Robyn: you looking i'm assuming you're looking beyond cycling and talk about climbing walls is there something that you've found so far in particular where women might be further forward than a sport in particular that maybe other ones could learn off and say actually this is a more level playing field i mean just ultra marathon running in general full stop that's quite we don't know enough about these people because like a lot of female ultra marathon runners are very much away in their own worlds doing their thing i mean when we just saw jasmine paris and the barclay marathons it was just like who is this woman where did she come from and she wasn't interested in anybody knowing any of that stuff she was just running around hills with her dog working out for herself what alongside a full-time job it was just insane it's there's like there's so much information that we need to access like how like i bet there were people like how do you train how many hours do you do what speed you run at what pace what do you eat there's so much we don't give us access to your brain everything she probably didn't want to give anything away because it's probably exhausting but do you know that's remarkable if someone can do that in their own time and space yeah i mean the whole parkley marathons thing if anyone listening doesn't know what that is i feel like you look up on youtube but there's several documentaries that will blow your mind yeah they will absolutely blow your mind from even the lighting of the cigarette to signal the star crazy crazy i love that stuff it's it's i can't imagine how hard that is as an event blows my mind because you have seen in ultra cycling events also women have been represented better on the top end of results than in other shorter sports i guess that endurance thing is quite interesting to see naturally i guess without necessarily as much science that is happening and just I think it was this week you mentioned ultra running uh Rachel Entrikin won the Cocodona 250 which 250 mile race in Arizona won overall beating all the men 56 hours nine minutes 48 seconds that's unbelievable isn't it I mean it absolutely incredible brilliant news story more of that please more of that please how do you feel looking at something like that and knowing your event was a sprint and it was really short do you think oh maybe I should have done something longer do you know what I don't think I had the mental capacity to do endurance sports especially as a young woman now I find it easier to channel my intention and pace and think about these things and and be lost for a long period and be very comfortable with suffering for a long time alone.

54:08But as a young woman, I think I was so, my head was so full of noise and concern and anxiety and doubt. I think I would have internally combusted if I'd had to have spent that many hours by myself. And it's crazy because physiologically I was perhaps better suited. No, I was always not exactly a sprint to build. So I don't know, but I just didn't have the, I didn't have the right mindset at the time to do that. Only later in my life have I become more adapted to doing sort of more endurance based things. I'd also like with the endurance on the track, I'd like lose count of laps and things like when people start getting lap gains and then they're ahead, I'd start freaking out internally, probably externally as well.

54:52And I'd be like, oh, should have done a sprint. Well, the first World Cup race I ever won was the scratch race. They entered me at the last minute because they had no one to ride it. And I was there and I was in Sydney and I was like, okay, I'll do it. And I won it. I actually used to ride all the races, including the points race at the nationals. And I have actually picked up a few national medals in Women's Omnium League and the first Derny Championship as well, I'm just going to say. Oh, that's brilliant. I had many laps in me. There wasn't really much to offer for women's endurance on the track at the time.

55:23Either way, it was slim pickings. And I didn't have, as I said, the mental capacity, I don't think, to be on the road.

55:30Robyn: that's just too many hours training and you came from a grass track right before you started so it was a natural thing for you to get into the indoor track that's it and and also you know we on the grass it's like there were the shorter races the ones I was successful at because they used to give me a really good handicap and I was quite light and if it was muddy I could just skim over the top of the grass rather than sink in so I had an advantage and that was nice so yeah that was kind of why I went that way it was really like a lack of other options do you I mean we'll probably have to wrap this up soon unfortunately but who do you I guess see yourself most in now with the current track squad uh I don't they're all like superhuman these days girl so are you I mean I don't know if I could turn the sprint gears they're so enormous like massive dinner plate chain rings going on it's like a different sport now I don't think I could have done it anyway I wouldn't have passed the selection in this day and age they would have they would have measured me up and gone no the reason is when I started track sprinting no one else really wanted to do it that's the truth there weren't any other women there who were really like I'm going to give this a go this could be an opportunity no one wanted to do it we had so little understanding and experience and history of the sport, it wasn't a thing, genuinely.

56:55I didn't know what I was doing, but no one else wanted to. So I saw it as a good opportunity to put my hand up and say, yeah, count me in. And look what became of it. Yeah, there we are. Never look a gift horse in the mouth. Every opportunity, say yes. Well, I think that's a beautiful way to end the podcast. With every opportunity, say yes.

57:17Robyn: Including buy the book. This book, say yes, everyone. say yes i've got it right next to me oh well thank you so much for your time victoria and for writing the like the fear opportunity it was an incredible read thank you thank you very much thank you very much victoria pendleton i think safe to say she is a legend that was a great interview definitely love to have her back on at some point robin what were your takeaways and i I do have a little question to put you on the spot a little bit. What were your first or favourite Olympic cycling memories of your very short lifetime so far? Oh, well, thank you for the short lifetime.

58:02I do feel it sometimes that I'm getting on. So I was actually inspired to be a track cyclist because of the 2012 Olympics. So a lot of my early memories are Victoria Pendleton, particularly against Anna Mears I just thought they would like these two giants of the sport and I would always get so like enthralled and also really funny that like she Victoria said about the British press were like making things up and they were actually like really chill off the bike and and then also the classic team pursuit it was the sprint and the team pursuit that I was really locked in on so laura kenny danny roach who really yeah were very inspiring to me and they're my first real olympics memories i guess i don't have too much memories of 2008 because i was 10 but yeah how about you yeah so you say that so my first olympic memories 2004

59:00Robyn: so i was born in 1996 damn and that was chris hoy i think he was still doing the kilo in that one unbelievable yeah i think yeah and how good is it to see chris hoy looking looking good at wimbledon this week yeah love that and also wiggins was coming through in that one and that's a lot that's just i was very young i didn't really understand what was going on but i felt that the wiggins and hoy legendary vibes just being born and then you see that keep going in 2008 i thought nicole cook 2008 was pretty legendary early on especially because the men's road team wouldn't be doing anything i was like watching that as like i was a few years into my cycling fandom sort of hoping that i could cheer on the the road cyclists and the men just didn't really do anything so it's kind of like oh but then the girls did it for us nicole won then we had second in the tt from from our friend emma pooling um yeah that was really good exactly i mean so many friends of the pod in the english team we had wiggins on poolie on pendleton on roussel on we need to complete the set at this point just get them all in at the same time maybe for the next yeah everyone just talk over each other yeah exactly we'll work it out la when's up 2028 we can do that round table what we need to do that's it robin okay everyone lock in to 2028 we're going to do a hollywood report style round table with all the legendary british truck cyclists oh we should do cyclists on cyclists yeah exactly and they can talk about how much they hated everyone else and they're fighting each other but also we actually discussed that briefly this morning i would like to see a cyclist on the cyclist wiggins through that'd be very interesting make amends i feel like they've already made amends but i would like to see that especially now the places they are now in their career there might be some underlying tension we can we can listen to yeah now now they're they're ready to talk to finish their careers wiggins can apologize for taking away frume's fifth tour de france frume can just soak it all up and apologize for not retiring earlier yeah anyway right i think uh we should get on because i mean it's funny we recorded this podcast i don't remember the interview quite a while ago and it's roasting today and i feel like we probably if anyone watches the youtube version of this we were probably like in puffer jackets yeah like hats and scarves like shivering yeah not great for the old continuity but i wasn't going to commit to that one it's too hot today but i hope you enjoyed this podcast and you'll be here for the next one a couple of weeks then who is yeah james hasn't revealed that to us which is i'm sure he's probably done the interview already but if not then i look forward to finding out who it is because i should probably stop preparing for that one um but robin go enjoy the tour de france and the rest of your day you too will thank you thank you thanks everybody