163. The art of the climb, with Simon Warren

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1:19you raring to go will raring i'm as rare as a rare state you are as rare as a rabbit for ages i just thought that was just a weird way of saying rabbit yeah exactly especially it's Welsh. I was like, yeah, probably that's the phonetic spelling of rabbit in Welsh. Like Brer Rabbit. It's more like Liverpudlian, isn't it? Brer Rabbit. Well, Liverpudlian sort of goes into Welsh. It's sort of a bit of Welsh, bit of Irish, all sort of... Yes, the melting pot of Welsh and Irish. Anyway, on that note, should we start the show? Shall we say welcome to the Cyclist Magazine podcast? I'm your host, James Spender, and join me down a wire, although that wire is now ending in a different room.

2:00Whoa. It's not his usual room. There's no England rugby shirt behind him. It's Mr. Will Strixon. Will, how are you doing? I'm good, thank you. Yeah, I've been, as I explained, off air. I've been kicked out of my desk because now there are two of us working from home today, which doesn't normally happen. So I've taken the really good decision to be like, you can have the desk. Is that when you brown your points? No, I don't think so. Does that mean you get to eat at the table later on while the other person has to eat on the floor? I'm assuming the other person is your wife, by the way. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

2:30No, it's actually the dog. He's tapping away on the old keys. So, so, so. Bye, bye, bye. Always be closing. He's typing hate tweets to all the local cats and foxes. I thought that was perfect. Probably, but posing as a cat himself. Excellent. Great. Infiltrating that. Well, our guest today, he is called Simon Warren. And I think a lot of people will have heard of that name because I reckon one in three cyclists for Christmas 2010 got a copy of 100 Greatest Cycling Climbs by Simon Warren. It was that popular. British cyclists, probably. British cyclists, yes. It was about climbs in the UK. But it was written.

3:14It's kind of mad to think. I would say that this was a genre-defining book when those kind of clickbait sort of listicles were just a little twinkle in the internet's eyes. Simon was actually writing real books. This was one of them. It had, as you might imagine, 100 climbs. They were considered the greatest climbs in the UK by Simon, but not ranked in any kind of order, grouped together geographically. So you had everything from Box Hill to Balacna Bar in Scotland. And I think Balacna Bar, my little tidbit is it's the longest vertical ascent in the UK, i.e. it goes from near sea level to something like 640 metres.

3:51It doesn't really compare to the Alps, but bloody hard. because it's very exposed and it's very bleak and beautiful. Anyway, that's a bit of a tangent, although we do talk about stuff like that, obviously, because Simon's kind of into climbs. Simon has since, that was 2010, Simon's, I think, probably written, I'm going to say, 14 books and someone can correct me since then, mostly about climbs in the UK, but also climbs in Belgium, Italy, France, Spain, you know, the classic cycling nations. So obviously, this is going to be an episode dedicated to climbing, the art of climbing, the beauty of climbing and the suffering of climbing.

4:26So we talk about kind of what makes a good climb, duh, obviously. Elevation versus distance and which one makes something harder. But also, is hardness what makes a climb great? I don't think it necessarily is, but it is a crucial factor and is one of those things that you'll find in those big marquee climbs. So we also sort of delve into how you might kind of break down the climb in order to plan how you're going to attack, say, the Vontu for the first time and actually not just do it, but kind of enjoy it or maybe even get a good time. So loads of stuff. I probably say the word climb even more the times than I said the word climb in this introduction.

5:02So climb, climb, climb, climb, climb. And earlier this year, Simon also re-released Cycling Climbs of Scotland, which is an updated guide to beautiful climbs in Scotland, Blacknabar also being one of them. So that's fully updated for 2026. So it's got refreshed. It said in the press release I got, it's got refreshed stats. So maybe it takes into account the shifting of tectonic plates and the different kinds of climbs. I don't know. But it does have the latest read information and guides for your next rides. And that is, if anyone isn't familiar, if you were two in three cyclists who didn't get 100 greatest climbs that one Christmas, then it's all about the climb from a kind of statistical point of view.

5:40But it's also about what makes that climb great and kind of how you do it, if you like. So it's a kind of experience piece because Simon has ridden all those climbs. Anyway, without further ado, let's get onto the show and welcome Simon Warren.

5:57So I would say Simon Warren is, I'm not sure if you'd see yourself this way, but I think from the enthusiastic cycling amateur, I am cycling with other enthusiastic amateurs. You've ended up being the kind of de facto gatekeeper or custodian of cycling climbing knowledge in the British Isles, having kicked off in 2010 with 100 greatest climbs. I feel like now there couldn't be someone on the planet who knows any more about cycling in the UK up a steep hill than you? Probably not. I mean, there's plenty of people who can go up faster than me. But yeah, that was never my intention, but I started and I kept going and I still like discovering new climbs.

6:37Obviously, I've not really, I've not done any new material for a while, but there are climbs out there. I do keep a short list if I was going to go back and publish another list. But yeah, wherever I am, I like to ride a new road. And yeah, I have sort of created this position for myself or I look after them. And is it a position that's in a way a rod for your own back or for your family's back as it were you know suddenly you're off on the road having to tick off climb after climb to get books done? You've got to put a bed at the table haven't you? Which was an excuse I applied for many years and the summer holidays are still oh we need to go to Switzerland I need to ride all the mountains to Switzerland we need to go to Austria so I mean to be honest my daughter's put a foot down now I mean she's left for university but She'll still like to come on holiday in the summer.

7:22It's just, I've had it. We're not going to need more mountain holidays. I also leave her at home, just take my son and my wife. A mountain holiday is better than no holiday. Yeah, that's very true. But yeah, gone are the days when they'll follow me around the UK, searching for climbs. So is that how it worked then? You were cycling long before you were writing books about cycling up steep things. What was the moment where you thought, hang on, I just need to start getting all this stuff down. There's a book here or maybe even a series of books. And then did you have to go away and actually find where all of these other clients were?

8:00Or had you just built this kind of ad hoc database? It was sort of when there was a couple of key things. I was watching EastEnders one night. This is the historical story I tell. And I just realized I was just wasting my life. It was the same. It's just the same nonsense. So I'm not going to watch TV anymore in the evenings. I'm going to go to my desk, which was in the same room. We live in a small one-bedroom flat. And I'm going to write some ideas down. And one of those ideas was something that had been milling my head for quite some time, which was a little black book of where all the steepest climbs are in Britain.

8:30Because when I was a teenager, I was reasonably fast uphill. And I loved going to find new climbs. I loved their names. And I thought, yeah, there's room in this. And that evening, I wrote down 75 names. So I got to that level off the top of my head. I've been a cycling fan. I follow the races. and I knew about the Rosedale Chimney and Hard Knock Pass and all these sort of things. And then I had to find the others. And then I had to find a geographical spread as well. So we can't just have a more center. I could do 100 climbs in the northwest easily, but you've got to sell it to everyone in the country.

9:01So it was hills that are famous for racing hill climbs in the southeast. Because at this point, I'd started bike racing again. So I had 10 years off in my 20s to get drunk and dance. And then I got to 30. I got back into it properly. and raced properly. But then I managed to get a first-cut license, and I was going away at the weekend, and I was just getting hammered by kids and people with talent and coming home miserable. And my wife has just had enough of it. So I needed a way to keep riding for a different purpose. And the book seemed like the perfect idea. Right, I need to go out and research and ride all these roads so I can photograph them and write about them.

9:40My dad's a wildlife artist, and his mantra is you can't paint a bird unless you've seen it in life. You need to see it in its surroundings and how it reacts and stuff, which I think was an excuse to go out birdwatching. Yeah, it's a good one though. So I just basically copied and pasted the same excuse into my life. I can't write about a hill unless I've actually ridden it and taken a picture of it. Yeah, and that played, that worked. So what was the first one that you went out and you're like, this is the one that kicks off the project now? um i think so what i did was i created a five climb sort of mini book with a cover because i'm a graphic designer i laid it all out and then i wrote the words so i went to the southeast where i've been racing and i did york's hill which the catford cycling club uses the hill climb um white lane which the beck uses i think i did toys hill and then there's a couple more down ditching beaking maybe there's five in the southeast so i could just go off on the bike on the train, take a picture, and then write it.

10:39I drew the profile. So I put it as a little mini book, created, I think, 10 of those and send them off to publishers who I thought might be receptive to the idea. And luckily one was. And the rest is history. And the rest is it. But then the rest is 95 more climbs just to complete that first book. So did you just go, right, I'm just going to commit, there's a month here, and I'm just going to go around the UK and do them all? Or is this, you slowly kind of amass them when you're in that neck of the woods? Yes, exactly. So I've got a full-time job. A full-time job, you generally have what, 25 holiday days.

11:15I had one young child at the time. I didn't have a car. So it was, yeah, basically just working around weekends, borrowing cars or getting a train. So you get a train to so-and-so, you ride 100, 120 miles, take off as many climbs as you can, get back on the train, get home. All the work was done in the evening. So instead of watching EastEnders, I would work at my computer and then stop at news night each night. I did that for five years straight from book to book to book until I'd had enough and wanted to watch EastEnders again. So yeah, it was basically fitting it around holidays, bank holidays, weekends.

11:52We did go abroad for a couple of years, but then the Tour de France book came along and that was, yeah, That was a different prospect altogether. Yeah. So in this time, have you got a kind of vague idea of how many vertical meters you have ascended in pursuit? Because I think, have you done 14, 13 or 14 books total? I think it's 14. I have written it down somewhere, but I can't remember where. I was looking at Strava the other day. Since 2010, I've done two and a half million vertical meters on Strava, which is a decent amount. Pretty decent, yeah. So yeah, you could add them all up. But there's a lot more meters of vertical climb.

12:32Some climbs, it'll take you all day to get to them. You climb more than you do to get to the climb, than the actual climb itself. But I think this overall, because we're just relaunching my apps, there's 1 ,000 climbs. There would have been 1 ,001, but one had to be removed because the farmer doesn't like cyclists. And he's got a shotgun. So yeah, so there's 1 ,000 climbs I documented in total. until the next project comes along. And I'll keep adding to it. And without this being the most basic question a journalist could ask you, what's the hardest climb you've done? I think it has to be the steepest, which is very recently.

13:09I mean, there's plenty that have broken me. The angler who broke me. In Spain? Yeah, I had to go back and do that. There's a few if I had to walk. The hard not first time I had to walk at the end of the Fred Whitten, but I went back the next day and I did it because I was fresh rather than having 100 miles in my legs. But there's one climb, it's very local to me, called Bamford Clough, which isn't in my books. It's on my app, which they tarmac a couple of years ago now. And it's over 36%. But on a standard road bike, I failed twice by breaking the bike. The third time I managed to do it. How did you break the bike?

13:45Well, it's partly bad mechanics, but I did a new chain ring and I couldn't be bothered spending£100 on a Campag one. So I got a Mish one, which was sort of similar. and it wasn't quite as good, but it meant to fit, but it didn't, and it snapped. And then the next time, the chain snapped and rammed into the frame. And it's just so unbelievably steep. If you've got clowns gears, which you get on most modern bikes now, you'll be fine, but I stick to it. I've got a 3428, and I wasn't going to go any smaller than that, otherwise... It's cheating. Exactly. I've still got a 34 at the back now. Austria forced me to get one of those, so I could get back with that.

14:23But I don't know. Now, once it's done, it's not the sort of thing you do twice, especially if you've got 50-year-old knees. Nice, yeah. I mean, you can feel the grinding patellas, can't you, when you're going on something like that? Yeah. So is that the steepest, because I've heard of this, so Bamford Clough, which is in Derbyshire, is that? Yes. And has that officially, or kind of officially, unofficially, taken the mantle away from what everyone said was the steepest road in the world in New Zealand? I don't think it's quite as steep for as long. Yeah, Baldwin Street in Dunedin. which I haven't been lucky enough to have been to, but not with a bike.

14:57I threatened to drive a camper van up to my wife's screen, so we're not. So we parked at the bottom and walked up it. That's a really crazy street in a straight line, but I think it is potentially steeper than that. There are steeper roads. There's one in Italy I've attempted called the Via Scania Pier. Yeah, I've heard of you about that. That's 42%. I didn't get very far at all on that. There's a video online. and you can watch Andrew Feather romping up it like it's... Just nothing. Yeah, yeah. But we sort of... And we had basic gears. Again, I think I put it on a 34, 28 and basically got about 100 metres up and then keeled off sideways.

15:35But we tried. So that's technically steeper. And there's the whole hoo-ha about Ford Penlech in Harlech in Wales who contacted Guinness and said, we've got the steepest street in the world. But it's only on that one little corner where it actually reaches its maximum. Whereas Baldwin Street is steep, steep, steep for so long. Because that corner is ostensibly a bit of a kind of hairpin of a sort. So they're measuring, they're taking it across the apex, aren't they? Yeah, they'd bent the rules a bit. And they've got themselves some good publicity. But the story of Baldwin Street is it was planned, like a lot of towns there, it was planned in London.

16:14And they didn't even look at the contours of the map. They just put a grid system in place and then told the contractors to build it. Nice. And yeah, so it was just up, along, down, up, along, down. And that's where you got stupidly steep roads instead of any hairpins or twisting lanes. Because the, do you say Scannopia or Scannopia? But the one in Italy you mentioned. That's on one of, which I hope you don't mind me mentioning, one of my favourite websites, Pjam. Yes, yeah, I work with them a bit. Oh, cool. Because they rank that as the hardest climb in the world. Yeah. What are their metrics?

16:48And do you sort of believe in them? How do you rank the hardest climb in the world? Because it's not necessarily the steepest, but it's got sections. Like, hasn't it got the steepest half mile and then the steepest 5Ks? But then there's longer climbs or there's climbs that have more vertical ascent? Or how do you work it out? I think when it's really steep, it's simply a sense of strength. It's hard in the instant, whereas a 30-kilometer climb will weigh you down, weigh you down. But you can go slower and slower. it's not going to sort of snap you like a twig. Yeah. If you see what I mean, you know, just wither you away.

17:25But yeah, a really steep climb, it becomes impossible instantly. Yeah. Yeah. Whereas a really long climb, you could maybe rest and keep going. At least you can keep going. There's plenty of 30 kilometer climbs, which are very hard, but yeah, they are doable. I mean, things like the Zonkerland, that's incredibly hard. Yeah. And you really just question your life choices. and plenty of the ones I've recently been riding in Austria, they're 15 % for 10 kilometers, which is just like nothing else in Europe. So there's lots of really hard out there. But to give it a ranking, a lot of it's horses for courses as well.

18:02Some people like it short. They've got that huge power. Some people just can't cope with length. So I use my own personal algorithm when I'm creating my books for my ratings. I guess other people have their own. So if you applied that then to the big world climbs, like Maurekeia, Alto de Letras. So Maurekeia is in Hawaii. Alto de Letras in Colombia, which has sort of received an extension not so long ago, Letras, with the El Siphon, which is they've kind of connected another peak to the end of Letras. And so you can kind of go between them, which then makes it insanely long. You can max it out to like 117 kilometers.

18:42Wow. And then there's a Taiwan challenge, of course. Yeah, the one in Taroko. gorge which is yeah if you kind of measure really generously i think you can you can say it's a hundred kilometer climb but i think the first 20k sort of very very gentle but then at the top you've got you know you go over 3 000 meters it's insanely steep people zigzag i mean obviously that's still on my bucket list so where would you where do you look and you think i reckon that's probably all told all the different metrics combined probably i'd say that's like the hardest climb in the world? Because those are so far, you know, they're lottery winning clients.

19:18You don't just pop off to Columbia to ride up the climb and then nip over to Hawaii and then off to Taiwan just so you can compare or three. Having watched videos, I mean, I've seen Phil Gaiman's attempt at Monokia. Yeah. And a lot of that's gravel. I don't know, I think he swapped bikes, did he, to get a care run? But yeah, but that looks incredibly difficult for various reasons and all of them, you know, the altitude. I remember when Dan Evans went out to try and win the Taiwan KOM challenge because he had not raced above 3 ,000 meters. It just destroyed him. He was great at leading at one point.

19:51But again, there's so many different factors, whether it's the steepness, the length, or simply the altitude. I think a lot of us flatlanders would really struggle out in Colombia and the locals would have spinned past on their bikes on the way to school when it got to a higher altitude because they're just used to it. But yeah, so to say which is the hardest in the world, it's almost impossible. unless you've been out to them all in the same week, in the same form. Yeah, no, too right. And yeah, you know, altitude, as you say, is like, is such a massive killer. And I had done the tow-on KOM for cyclists.

20:28And I remember seeing, well, two things that still stick in my memory was a guy about halfway up, who I realized was like, stood up out of the saddle. He went pretty fast past me. And I looked at him and realized that he didn't have a saddle. he just had he had what was just the end of the post and the clamp had shaken loose and he he was at the top when i eventually got to the top he'd done this climb somehow for most of it stood up which is or perhaps sat on his top tube or something but i was like that's absolutely nuts and then there was somebody from i can't remember her name she'd been selected for canyon off the back of a zwift um you know the zwift academy so yeah so she was a really good esports racer she's a really strong bike rider because we did like a ride with her a couple of days before and about 3 000 meters she was draped over her bars off the side of the road just being sick just like and it was just like whoa and it was almost indiscriminate so people you look at and you go i don't know if you're going to get to the top yeah would just be fine and then other people are like bloody hell like you're you look an absolute specimen yeah just capitulate because yeah we're all born differently with different attributes yeah do you find that you respond sort of i don't know what are your best conditions i don't know i see i'm getting older now i think i like something that's reasonably steep reasonably long yeah not too steep not too long and i think you always have to ride within your abilities i think you know if you have a power meter that helps you on climbs if you're if you're going to ride them at pace to just stay within your capabilities and not pretend to be Andrew Feather or whatever and know your what's.

22:08Altitude-wise, I've never really suffered. I've done Pick of a Letter. That's the highest I've been. So that goes to 3 ,300. And that's Spain, isn't it? Yeah, and that's way higher than anything else in Europe. And the next is Chimidumana, which is 2.8 something. And you can feel it up there. You can feel it's thin. But I didn't really feel any adverse effects. Maybe I need to go. Maybe I could for the part of that attitude. I don't know yet to try. Because I feel like we're really Euro-focused, obviously, from the UK. And you look at those lists of hardest climbs in the world. There's some in America.

22:44There's things like Pikes Peak. There's so many I've just never heard of in countries like Bolivia, Ecuador. South America is madly mountainous, isn't it? Yeah. And GCO are doing a good job of sending all over all in. People are doing on backpacking trips and showcasing a lot of these stupid climbs. There's ones in a place like Turkmenistan, the Silk Route, wherever it goes across 4 ,000 meters and stuff. They're not the sort of thing that your average reader is ever going to get out to taste, whereas we can hop across and ride the Alps, the Pyrenees. I mean, the fullest I've ever felt have been, I've done Mount Fuji, that's the most exotic mountain I've climbed.

23:24I don't rate it. It's just forested. you don't see nothing but it's good to say you've done it it looks good on Strava yeah well that I mean because that's another part of it right is there's all you know we love just doing the thing that we can point to the data and say I did this thing that's really difficult everyone can objectively see that but cycling isn't just that cycling is obviously you know you're supposed to enjoy yourself from time to time and so having climbs that are beautiful but not necessarily specifically challenging in a way you know they're the best climbs aren't they because you're getting the most out of them.

23:58If you've got a crazy view, so last year, I took the family to Croatia. Okay. We basically stayed in Dubrovnik. Really nice. Beautiful water to swim in. That's what we were there for. But I took a day out to head up the coast to ride Croatia's toughest climb. It's Svete Dura, I think it's pronounced. Okay, yeah. It's simply sensational. It goes right into my top 10 because the first half of it, you are just listed on this balcony road looking across the sea. It's Adriatic, isn't it? crystal blue waters and it's just a wonder to behold and then you'd switch inland and you've got this rocky landscape so it had everything it was an amazing road literally worth the plane ticket alone to go there and there's a few of these I've ridden there's one in Sardinia there's one in Turkey which we actually went to Turkey just because I'd seen a climb on the tour of Turkey which is what your national tour should do it should be an advert for your country so you know they showcased this massive climb I just went this is where we're going next summer what was that climb called?

24:56That's called Badadag. Oh, yeah. I think we've done that in Cyclist. Yeah. Because there was a, I'm not sure if it still exists, there was a Cyclist Turkey kind of franchise, and the editor there was like, this is an amazing climb. And yeah, it looked. Yeah, it's just bonkers. It's up to a cable car where they do jump off Parasite and down to the sea. A lot of it's like rugged, sort of tarmac-ed and ridged, and some of it's unsealed. and a lot of 20%, just hilariously bad. But yeah, again, worth the trip alone. It kind of pains me to admit this as a cyclist, but I rather like cars. And I think I've just been driving around in the nicest car I will ever, ever drive.

25:42And that's the Maserati Gricali, which it turns out is what happens if an Italian supercar company designed an SUV for people like me, for cyclists. Now, the Grakali is fast, like 0-60 in 4.1 seconds fast, but it is also, it's just delightful to sit in. It has the legroom of a first-class flight to Singapore. It's arguably more luxurious inside than my own house. And yet, I kind of can't believe I'm saying it because of what it is. It's a genuinely practical car. I could happily chuck a dirty bike in the back of it, then do the shopping, and then go and pick up the rest of the family. Now, I've been driving the electric Fulgori version, which has the equivalent of a 557 brake horsepower dual electric motor with a 360 mile range, which sounds incredibly impressive, I know, but let's just put that in cycling terms, which we actually understand.

26:31That is the same power output as a thousand Tadej Pogacchas, all racing Milan San Remo at once and then racing back again. Now, as well as the electric version, there are multiple engine options too, and prices start from£59 ,990, which when you think about it is something of a bargain given Pogaccia's Tour de France winning Colnago from last year sold at auction for£143 ,000. You could have bought two brand new Maserati Gricalis for that. Now you can find out more and also find out where your local Maserati dealer is at maserati.com where else. So that's maserati.com and check out the Maserati Gricali.

27:17so what would be in your let's start at the home first so what would be in your top 10 you know your personal top 10 climbs in the uk not to do with how you've rated them with your algorithm or you know anything else just what you'd like to ride yes i top my head so um i always say my favorite uk climb is newland's past um just because the legs yeah the greenery the simplicity It's a simple line of tarmac interspersed in the perfect green hillsides. So I love that one. I love when it's passed, which is on my doorstep. Although after the 20-whatever-it-was, National Hill Climbing has put a scar on my brain for that one.

27:54Why is that? Because it was just so horrendously hard. Yeah, it's just horrendous, Wayne. It was so cold, just shivering rain. It was the grimmest day of bike racing of all time. Ask anyone who was there, I'd repeat that. But when it's always has to be on list. Balakny Bar, of course. And there's a couple in Scotland. There's one remote one in Scotland to the Muller of Kintyre Lighthouse. It's literally a day's drive from anywhere. You have to get right down to the bottom of the Muller of Kintyre without singing the Paul McCartney song. I was going to say, is that just in your head the entire time?

28:22As soon as you get there. Or do you just play it out of rocks, like in posh hotels? Honest to God, I spent a New Year's up there in the 90s with a load of college friends. And we went into this pub. Little of nowhere, jukebox is on the jukebox. So we just kept putting money in until the landlord got really pissed off. and didn't want us in there anymore. So yeah, you've got, yeah, it's an amazing road. So you get to this dead end, you park your car, you could ride all the way there, but I'm never on that sort of schedule. And then you ride down to the coast, turn around and back up again. It's just simply spectacular looking across, I think it's the Atlantic or whatever.

28:52So that's always in my top 10. Rosedale Chimney, of course, which I raced last time for the first time ever. CTT, I've put a couple of time trials on last, so that's insane. Gets the blood flowing. What else in the north? Oh, yeah, Great Dunfell, which didn't go in my first book. It was an oversight, but you always keep something for the sequel. That's the highest climbing. And I often get sent pictures of people up there in the cloud. You're very lucky if you get a clear day up there. So how high is that then? It's very high. Because it's Bill Attena Bar in Scotland. Is that the longest, the biggest ascent?

29:31Yeah, so that's the highest altitude you can get. Yeah, so that's like, and it's like 600, because it tops out at like 640 something. Yeah, I've got my app here. So, Great Dunbar is 838 metres actually, and gains 620 metres along the way, with a maximum gradient of 25%. If I go to Blacknebar, did you remember that number? Yeah. It was 828. Oh, Blacknebar is only 621, so it's nowhere near as high summit-wise. but then yeah Great Newfell is a dead end whereas the highest summit the highest pass in England is Chapel Fell out of Weardale okay I mean the climbs up there are sensational because they're so quiet and wild so I couldn't put Chapel Fell in my top 10 because I mean I could pretty easily more easily give you a top 10 of climbs I hate like Chapel Fell is one of them yeah Ditching Beacon is another Ditching is a big horrendous just traffic for anything.

30:30It's claustrophobic. Green Howe Hill out of Pateley Bridge. Okay. Don't have it on. Yeah, it's always a headwind. It's always raining. It could be sunny about two miles either side. It's literal hell. What else around here? Well, they're the three that spring to mind. Another favorite, Michael Gate. Oh, yeah, all the cobbled climbs in Halifax I love. Shibden Wall, Triple Lane. I mean, cobbled climbs that are far harder than anything in Flanders. the belders might be upset but it's the truth they're always spectacular, I said spectacular a few times too many times, but yeah they're always great to ride but no hills I enjoy all hills to a certain extent yeah is it just the pleasure of going up and you're not really too fussed about the descents or are you a rider that kind of goes well I've got to go up to go down and that's where the real thrill is no no I always claim I was born with my central gravity in the wrong place I was riding the Maratona once in the Dolomites and I was on a good day I was climbing well with this group and I dropped them all and then halfway down the scent they'll catch me and this one guy we all had our names on our backs he's called Simon Simon he says you were climbing very strong but you descend like shit sort of swear words I live in London where do I practice?

31:50this is it but I'm not Tom Pidcock I can't you know how many times have we watched that picture of him descending the glimier I just can't do that. Maybe I'm too fearful. I mean, I'm the worst descender, but I'm so far from the best. And so how about overseas? So you've cycled lots of places. I know, like you say, there's even more that you'd like to go to. But where would be top five, top ten climbs that you've been to? Yeah, so the big ones. The top of the list you've got to go to is the Cordo Nivelle in Italy, the Italian Alps, which simply is sensational. I said sensational. That's a very, very beautiful one, isn't it?

32:29Yeah, it's where they filmed famously the bus going over the edge and the Italian job. There's this tunnel at the start of it. I think there's a path around the outside, but we didn't know about it. So we start off through the tunnel, three kilometers at 10%. And it's horrendous. And then when you get out of that, it's hard, it's hard, it's hard. But then you get to the dam and after that gets easier, but you're surrounded by these lakes and it's the Park del Paradiso, what it's called. Yeah, it's mind-blowing. So that's my favorite Italian one. In Italy, in France, it's the Côte d 'Abonnet. Yeah, it goes like 28 kilometers long.

33:01I've ridden it a couple of times, both early in the morning. You don't see anyone. I remember going up there, there's a guy in his tent a couple of kilometers from the summit with a huge astronomical telescope. It must be that early on, because there's nothing. There's no light. It's the perfect place for that. And then you get to the top, and there's this wonderful sign that says Nice, 100 kilometers, and it's all downhill from there to the coast. So the bonnet is my favorite French one. In Spain, I think it has to be a pick of a letter because there's nothing like it. You can almost see the curvature of the earth.

33:33You feel so high up at the top. The road deteriorates to the point, I never actually reached the top. I fell short about 500 meters because it got so rough. I mean, I ride 26 mil tires, slick tires. I wasn't going to wreck them, and I certainly wasn't going to wreck my new shoes. So I said, I can see the top. That will do me. So there's that. I mean there's another okay there's another one the Canaries so everyone goes to Tenerife or Grand Canaria but what you need to do is get a boat to La Palma and ride up to the summit there so you've got one road 42 kilometers up we did we spent the day doing it I think it's like two and a half thousand meters inclined it's the most inclined I've ever done from sea level to summit after a thousand meters we got through the cloud so the rest of that we're climbing in this sort of pinnacle and looking out over this ocean of cloud across as far as you can see.

34:25And then you enter this volcanic landscape, and at the top is where the European space agencies have all their antennas and big domes searching the stars, and it's an hour of this world environment. Amazing. And then we had a sandwich, then we rode all the way down the other side, then turned around and rode back up again, hoping to find something to eat at the top. Sure, we saw a cafe, it was nothing. And we were just dead on our feet. We flagged this German camper van down and begged them for food, and they gave us some biscuits. because then after that, you've got 42 kilometers downhill and even, you know, you think that's downhill, but that's not easy.

34:59Yeah. Break it in and out of every hairpin. So that is somewhere where I always say, you know, get the plane to Tenerife and then just get the boat across and La Gomera, the other island, to the south. That's really nice. And then the one I mentioned in Croatia. Yeah, the Sveta Dura. Yeah. And then last year, I went to Austria and rode some crazy roads up to these dams. one's called Gross Sea and they're sort of not private roads but service roads up to dams with stupid gradients stupidly empty I mean Austria is beautiful but it's the hardest place I've ever ridden I had to buy a 30 tooth sprocket for the back because they just don't give up the Austrian climbs yeah yeah yeah I think one of the guys Sam has done or tried to do Gross Sea and just got off yeah yeah the Kitzel Kinspoorhorn, Glossnock.

35:51Oh, yeah. Yeah, they're all just multiple kilometers of 10 % and 12%. It's the Rettenbach Glacier, the Kuntau Glacier, I think it is. I don't know what pronunciation is. The spelling is just terrible. They're all, again, all just kilometer after kilometer of 10%, 12%. It's enough to have you in tears. Yeah, spectacular places. It's amazing how much cycling owes to basically every single other kind of industry that isn't cycling for its infrastructure. Yes. Because it's all ski stations or hydroelectric dams that need service roads or a pass that is just there to connect a place to a place, but then becomes a kind of, you know, I struggle to think of many purpose-built climbs for cycling.

36:39I mean, there's hardly any, right? No. But there's something like, you know, the one, the Col de la Lose. Yes. So the top of that where that was kind of connecting Courcheval and Meribel. Yeah. And that was like, right, this can be used for cycling. But everything else is just like we're bloody lucky that other people have gone and built these things. Yeah, yes. And then we can just play on it. Yeah. I saw one of the comments here today. There's a race out in the United Arab Airways. It's not the main tour, but it's a smaller race. And they're going up a climb, which hasn't been used in the UAE tour, but it's like a four-lane highway.

37:14and said, why are these climbs out there, four-lane highways? And all the ones in Europe are just tiny little roads. Because they've only just been built last year for SUVs, whereas all the ones in Europe were built for goat herders and then eventually maybe sealed. So they've all had a different purpose. And now they're our plaything. Some of them have gates to the bottom, and some of them have farmers telling you not to ride up them. But if someone's going to build a piece of tarmac I've got to a transmitter in the North York Moors, then I've got to ride up it. You look on Google Earth, that's got a hairpin on it.

37:50Yeah. Do you use that then as a tool quite a lot? Would you use something like Google Earth to be like, okay? Because I'm thinking at this point in time, A, from your point of view, you've ridden loads and loads of stuff, but also just from the world's point of view and the internet connecting all the dots for us, you kind of almost feel like there's no stone left unturned. Yeah, so that is a good tool for research. I mean, one of the great things about the Austrian climbs I did last year as Google Earth stopped, I had to then search the internet for pictures on people's Strava feeds to see if people have actually taken bikes up there.

38:22I mean, you could see that the heat map showed some people have been up there. But you know it's going to be special if the Google car hasn't made it up, which is, you know, that's the badge of honor now. It certainly hasn't been at Bamford Clough. But yeah, I mean, there are so many tools at our disposal for research purposes now. I mean, when I did the first book, a lot of this wasn't there. Strava wasn't there. There wasn't any real profiles. I was actually drawing profiles by using a piece of cotton with lines marked on it by marking each contour line on the detailed OS map. And then, you know, they never said, you know, a level math came in handy, but it did at times.

39:00So, yeah, so you can literally, you know, research the whole thing before you get there. But if you can't, then there's that excitement of going into the unknown and finding a gate and wondering, you know, is it an army base or is it? Yeah, is some guy going to come down with an automatic rifle of fatigues? I mean, I had that in northern Spain, one climb, which I didn't put in my Spanish book, purely because the man at the top with the machine gun told me, you shouldn't be here, turn around, didn't you see the signs, and don't take any pictures. So I did take some pictures and one was on the cover, but I didn't reference the climb I'd written up to get there.

39:35Yeah, we've definitely had some moments like that with cyclists. I remember a couple of the guys getting stuck where were they cycling in um I want to say in Romania and they ended up going down to the center and crossing a border and then suddenly realized they're in another country and didn't have their passports and there was actually a checkpoint and then the guys just like well what you want to come back up that road I'm sorry where's your documents and obviously eventually they got back but I sort of love those things and in a way there's fewer and fewer of those stories because I don't know about you but But I could kind of lament the massive amount of information that kind of means that things just aren't unknown.

40:15Harder and harder to discover new things. Yeah. I'm always sort of working to a time. I'm always time-starved. So there was a holiday like three years ago when I finished the Spain book and I gave the family a 17-page document on the holiday. My daughter thought this was tantamount to child abuse. But that was the agenda because there wasn't any time for mistakes. I need to ride this climb in this many hours, then we drive here and I ride this climb, then we drive here and I ride this climb, and then you can go and look around that town and then we'll go for a nice dinner. Then you can go to the pool, but I've got to do this climb.

40:49The more information you can get means the less mistakes you're going to make and the more you can make of your time. Other people who haven't got time constraints know how to set up on their bike and wander around and see what happens, but I've never been in that position. Do you get people who kind of tap you up on social media or however, you know, they find you and go, I've got an amazing client, come and see this. And are they amazing when you get there? Or do you kind of end up going, it's probably, it's amazing to you. A hundred percent. Well, the best thing is, tell me that, I've already been there, and that's a good feeling.

41:20But of course, I've not been everywhere. And often it's like, damn it, why haven't I seen this? And then you research, it's not actually that good. Or if it is really good, then yeah, credit to them, thanks for that. I mean the last list I did which in my app I called it the X list which is all these sort of hidden like service roads up and down the country and tiny roads which I'd never heard of which only really need local knowledge from each part of the country which people had sent me over the years and I put them in a list and I went out and rode them all and that sort of covered a lot of the really hidden ones and of course there's more and are they hidden in a like a you're not really supposed to ride them but you can jump over a fence or are they hidden as in they're just access roads which just aren't really obvious so people don't take that turning.

42:07Yeah, if you're going somewhere, you'd probably take that road and you wouldn't think of turning left and jumping at the path. There's one just north of Sheffield where if you were just riding down this hill, you wouldn't know it was there because they haven't dropped the pavement. There's a dropped pavement, but it's not like a road junction. So you actually have to go up the pavement and then you get on it. It's a perfectly legal road and then you find yourself on Wheel Lane. and you think, this is amazing, it's got hairpins, it's 20%, but you wouldn't normally, you wouldn't notice it unless you knew it was there.

42:34So it's those sort of roads. I think the Muller of Kintyre Lighthouse Road sort of tipped me off on that. No one's going down to the bottom of Muller of Kintyre unless you're looking for puffins, they want to come there, whatever. And there it is, it's outrageous. And there's a few of those around. There's one called the Bardsley Lookout in North Wales. And, you know, there's real horrors in the Conway Valley, which, yeah, you wouldn't really know they were there. so it took a lot more than me just scouring them out looking for chevrons. It took an army of people doing the same thing and feeding me the results.

43:07Amazing. I always struggle. Our job, our bread and butter for lots of it, is to try and work out where to go riding and then to document it and show people, you know, great job. And I'm not complaining about it in any shape or form, but it is, I find, an oddly hard undertaking to try and work out kind of where to go next. so to show somebody something new but not only to show them something new to also make maybe a route around it so i noticed you've got um you know in your oeuvre of books you've got um rides so which you kind of explain as i've unshackled myself from just doing climbs i've built a 40 rides from dartmoor to the highlands you know what are your top tips that i can learn from and anyone else but i'm just mining you for information how you work out those routes yeah To the point where you're like, this is a route that I believe enough to put in a book.

43:58I mean, that's sort of the start of the year. I sort of plan my year. What am I going to do? I like to do a few magazine features. There you have to come up with a concept, something that may be unique, something that no one's done before, or something that's going to interest people. Last year, I thought, where's the furthest place from the sea in England? So it turned out to be this... It's somewhere in Nottingham. It's in Derbyshire, a village called Cotton in the Elms. So I thought, well, I'm going to go there. I'm going to ride from there to the coast and back and see how quickly I can do it.

44:29And it's equidistant from three separate points, somewhere in the Wirral, somewhere in the Bristol Channel, then somewhere on the Lincolnshire coast. I thought, I'll tell the Lincolnshire it's flattest. And again, it's a spark that comes to you. I rode 100 climbs in Sheffield in one ride in 100 miles. 100 climbs in one ride? Yeah, in 100 miles. Man. So I had to set the parameters. And literally, it took months to plot. I mean, Sheffield is a city of seven hills. They said the whole thing is climbs. So just starting from my doorstep, and I mean, a climb, you know, it's not like with its pass. It's like, you know, Ramby Road is a climb because it starts at the bottom and finishes at the top, and that's a climb.

45:07If it has a definitive start and finish and gains altitude, then it ranked in my list. So I just crisscrossed with that doubling back on myself. I rode all the big local favorites and then chucked in lots of others. and yeah again it's searching for a little bit of inspiration I did a cake ride where I rode from place to place to place towns had cakes named after them like the Bakewell Tart the Eccles Cake the Chorley Cake that was a good ride I pitched an idea one for cheese but apparently cyclists don't stop for cheese but that was going to be from Stilton to Cheddar and back and then again I think for people who are new to it like me we ride all the time we've done everything maybe but new people that's why I like the book was like the first book this is 100 days out on the bike at least 50 oh we're going to go here we're going to ditch in Beacon we're going to drive we're going to try this climb and a climb becomes the focus you might spend 30 miles getting there but you're focused on this climb you're going to ride it and then you spend 30 miles coming home happy that you've done it yeah so if let's say you've got a ride like that as you say that's like a pretty common way of you centre a ride on something there's a good chance particularly for listeners who are going to do this sort of thing overseas and it's your kind of it's your big cycling holiday you've found this climb it's probably pretty epic it's therefore probably very daunting how would you advise somebody to sort of prepare for it because you know you've got to kind of prepare you can't just go if you're going to have fun you can't just go out and think oh you know hope for the best so how would you kind of break down like what's going to be quite an epic climb so that it becomes you know doable and therefore a good fun thing to do i mean it's good to ask you it's quite simple but to break it into sections is there any way you can stop on the way are there cafes uh are the shops where you know you can refuel uh or even bail if you're with a group of people so they can go to the top do a bit of research look into the weather is it going to be horrendous um is it going to be good weather and it's just you know I do it virtually all in one alone and you know you head off into the middle of the Austrian Alps and there's no one there's just no one there if you're thinking about it at home you'll think that's a bit daunting I'm the only person out here but then once you're in that you're not because you're riding your bike you're moving and it's awesome once you're doing it I don't know it's hard to people prepare you know you just got to take just smile it hurts stop make sure you've got plenty of food with you keep putting fuel in the tank and every time you feel a bit, this is broken, we look at the snowy peaks around you and realize how lucky you are doing it and then get ready for that descent.

47:49Pretend to be a strong pick. And do you personally kind of use, I don't know, like a power meter or something? Do you kind of meter your climbs based on known parameters like your heart rate? Only if I'm racing at the end of the year, so time trial or whatever. I pretty much know a level to ride at. if their research climbs, it's steady because I've usually got three or four in a day. And also, if I'm on holiday with the family, I've got to get it done early in the morning and then we've got to spend four hours walking around the city in the afternoon. So you can't burn all your matches doing the cycling stuff because I've got to fight my son in the pool for four hours and then drink five pints of the local ale.

48:33So all my holidays are managing different energy pockets and then you come back destroyed. so yeah i only really focus on power if it's if it's me against the clock or to to basically hold hold me back from going too hard too soon yeah but yeah for for for a casual you know right up a hill researching it's very much yeah just listen to your body you know take it in and often you know if the climb's long and hard there's only one level you can go at anyway until you get you know when you hit bottom gear it's it's grinding speed and you just yeah how many kilometers to go yeah I mean, that's useful.

49:09If you go to places like France, nearly all the big climbs will have your kilometre markers. And you start to become dependent on them. It's when you get to a climb that hasn't got them, then you start, how far is it to go? And then you get into the cloud, and it's going on forever and ever, and that can break you mentally. It's funny, isn't it? It sort of depends, in a way, what mood you're in, because I have found that kind of friend and foe, those kilometre markers, because sometimes when you know how far you've got to go, and you see how far you have therefore left it's soul destroying and you kind of you're suddenly aware of like wow i've just seen one and the last time i saw one was ages ago so that means i'm going really slowly and i still know there's at least 10 left however if you you pass number seven and where's number six where's number six and then number five turns up yeah because number six didn't exist and that is a complete win that's like yeah do you think they do that on purpose Maybe.

50:04Every time and again, someone just goes, you know what? Just take one out. But then often, you look at it, you see this, then you glance down and it says, little figures, 10 % average. And that's when your heart sinks. But then the next time, it can say 1 % average because you know you're just going to knock that one off. Yeah. Do you feel like in Britain, most climbs, if they have a percent sign, is 16 %? I just feel like at some point, somebody got a job lot of 16 %ers. you don't tend to see much more than that? Well, if you go to the North York malls, virtually everything's got a 30%. And there's only a couple that actually go to 30%.

50:41I'm pretty sure they've got like 10 for one price at the printers. So they just churned the load out and stuck them up to scare people. I don't know who accurately measured them all. And I reckon I can pretty much guess a gradient when I'm on it. I certainly could at the heyday of producing the books because I was riding them all the time. and knew what I was on. There's quite a few that have been over-egged. Yeah. What do you reckon is the most, not necessarily over-egged, but kind of over-rated, or some of the most more over-rated climbs that you've done, where you just think, everyone bangs on about it, and you get there and you do it, and it's just not all that.

51:17How do you say, Rocca Cacabra, near Girona. Oh, yeah. The most underwhelming climb ever really. It's what all the pros do. They've got clothing lines named after it. It's ugly. It's just set in the woods, and then you only see the daylight on the last 50 metres. But yeah, it's where everyone puts their effort down. But it's the most unremarkable road I've ever ridden. There's so many better ones around there. And this country, most of them live up to expectations. I'm sure if I think of it, some that are totally oversold. I think there are quite a few in the north moors. There's one called Slates Moor, which gets to about 25, but it's not 30.

51:55But then Rosedale's 30. That's definitely 30. Yeah. I'd say I've only ridden properly in the lakes once doing the Fred Witton many moons ago. I don't think I could complete it now. And my goodness, having been lucky enough to ride in lots of different places for cyclists, I would say that that's the steepest area I've ever come across for roads. I mean, they're not long, long. I mean, they're not long. They're like a couple of K maximum. But those Romans just went straight up. Straight across, yes. It's absolutely insane. And I wonder, on the one hand, sometimes I think, how on earth does anyone from the UK go and do something like the Atap or the Maratona?

52:38Because how can you train here for something like proper high mountains? But I also think, if you were unlucky enough to come from Italy with these lovely long sinewy 10-kilometer climbs to do the Fred Witton, then you are in for an absolute shock. It's a completely different ballgame. Yeah. And it is hard, but yeah, the Conway Valley, I mentioned before, North Wales, that is harder. That is harder than the lakes. That is the hardest place to ride a bike in Britain. Either the road down the middle, then all the roads that go off either side, just beyond vicious. And it takes a different type of climbing.

53:13We just can't prepare for, I ride in the TAP the last three summers. That last climb, I'm always cramping. My back always goes, because we can't just do 20-kilometer climbs in that position with that sort of power output. and we can't replicate that at home. You can try, you can't do it on a Strava. I mean, you can pretend to do it, but it's not the same. Yeah. And then even if you could get close, you can't then replicate, say, the heat because that's the other thing, isn't it? No, yeah, exactly. Unless you put the heat in on full, but no one can afford to do that anymore. And finally, Simon, I just wanted to ask you a couple of questions about hill climbs because you are a hill climb aficionado and competitor and have been doing it for decades at this point.

53:53I always look at those hill climb bikes I think how much of what they, you know, the ones that get put up on websites and people go, well, look at, you know, the drillium on this thing. There's barely any of that brake lever left because it's been drilled out and the bars have been chopped down. There's no, there's no tape and et cetera, et cetera. So it goes on. How much of that really is placebo thinking you've got the lightest bike? It's all utterly necessary. It's all utterly necessary. You look at Harry Mack's bike, who is one of the last couple. he literally drilled holes in his down tube I mean that's a Cervelo is that an old Cervelo R3 is that his bike?

54:31it was like the one he had this year and then put some extra carbon fibre in lettering for his initials that's utter lunacy but he's doing that and he's winning it it has to be basic physics every gram you don't have to take up it's true I mean I do it I just do it because I just love the process of taking the bike apart. I love it's part of the scene. But I can't stop putting weight on it. It's just the age I am. So it makes no difference to me anymore. I mean, I rode Fix last year, just a laugh, to get a super light bike. But it's all part of the event. It's all part of doing it. It's part of the attraction of it.

55:10Some of the crazy stuff. One guy had reverse engineered a SRAM electronic shifter and taken all the parts out of it and then glued them to his handlebars. That was the craziest one I'd seen. And you can even see the button cell battery that's exposed and the lever that's just kind of like taped on there with Lecky tape. And it works. Often things don't work. And I wrote one guy, he's a years at university, who took all but one of the sprockets off his cassette and then just filled it with spacers. It fell apart. And the first time he put some pressure through, there's lots, you know, So Callum Brown regularly snaps frames and chainsets.

55:48So you can go too far. But if Harry Mack's bike held up the power he puts through and he had a cutout frame, then yeah. It's worth doing if you want to be at the top or you just want to have fun. And it's DIY. You don't have to spend 15 grand. You can get a super light competitive bike for a couple of grand. Yeah. and actually what's great is the kind of older parts and i see because i've seen i've seen you on social and you've got the rim brake mafia yes jerseys and you know older parts such as rim brakes and you know remember wheels that are like 13 millimeter internal wheels yeah and you know those things way cheaper now and they're they're still the lightest things right yeah because actually things bikes have just gotten heavier yeah disc brakes have made stuff heavier and if you can only have a single little rim caliper and some old zip tubulars.

56:42You've got a fairly light bike. Yeah. Which, yeah, my zip tubulars, which, you know, from 2004, I wouldn't want them, you know, any other thing other than hill climb, but yeah, they weigh kilograms. Yeah. Everything weighs twice as much now. You've got batteries, you've got electric, you know, brake fluid, you've got these aero housings. It's rubbish, but this is for a different topic if you want to get me on to talk about the lunacy of modern bikes, then yeah, I can go all day on there. A whole other podcast. Yeah. Nice. Finally, would you subscribe to, I'm going to say, I haven't cross-referenced this for a while, I think it was Jacques Oncatil who would take a bottle, or maybe it was Louis-Homme Balbert, but take a bottle out of his frame and put it in his jersey pocket to make his bike lighter for the climbs.

57:29Does that make any sense? No. But I can see where he's getting at I will never use a saddlebag or strap anything to my bike. I see people lining up at Sportifs with 30 gels strapped to the bike. The bike has to be clean. If you're carrying anything, it goes in the pockets. Not in your handlebar, handbag or anywhere. It has to go on you. But the bike is light. I think there's something in that. If it's moving, if you take the bottles off of a bike, it moves better underneath you. It's true, right? Because when you're climbing out of the saddle, it's a pendulum. Effectively, you're propelling. If the pendulum is lighter, then you have to use less energy to make it move side to side.

58:06Yes. Or be it you have to put more energy into standing up now because you're heavier than you were before. I've never actually done that. I've probably got all the things in them, but I've never taken a bottle out to put it in my pocket. I'm more likely to throw it in a hedge and then come back for it, only if I know I'm coming back that way. In the old days when I was regularly chasing KOMs on hills here and there, the bottles always go in a hedge. with your rat with your inner tube in it if you're doing it properly. How many have you lost? How many has you come back here? I've always found, I've never actually had one stolen.

58:40I've always done a good job at digging holes and hiding them. Nice one. Well, Simon, thank you so much for the chat. That was really, really great. Yeah, love the books, by the way. Thank you very much. Yeah, and yes, the Psychon Clives of Scotland is back on the shelves now. Of course, which is why we started this. It's exactly why we're here. So I've got to put this link in. I'll put that at the beginning. And then later in the year, add this in, the original book, 100 Climbed, has been revitalized, completely refreshed, just like the Scottish book has, so that in May there's a new version with more pages, new pictures.

59:15And yeah, I might even squeeze another book out. Brilliant. Well, thank you very much, Simon. That was great. All right. Thank you very much.

59:25Simon and Warren, ladies and gentlemen, that obviously leads us very nicely into discussing our favorite climbs why don't we do that will why don't we end the show by discussing our favorite climbs i'm sure we've done it again before but we could do it again i think you should go first because you've climbed a lot more climbs than i've climbed i reckon maybe i could write a book james spender's 100 greatest climbs have i done 100 climbs probably maybe i reckon i've ridden up when i used to live in brighton i rode up ditchling beacon a bazillion times and that's a kind of a great climb that's a notorious climb in the area once i had to walk up it the one time not the one i think without sounding like incredibly arrogant the one time i've walked up a climb that's not to say anything other than i haven't obviously gone up very steep climbs but i bonked by the bottom and then had to take off my shoes because i'm going to wear my cleats out and walk up in my socks and it's very humbling But I would say possibly the Alto de Letras in Colombia because it was at the time of writing or climbing considered to be the longest climb in the world.

1:00:28And damn it if they haven't changed it and they've added an extra bit of road, which I haven't managed to ride. And so therefore I can't forfeit my cycling chops as having done such a long climb. But you've also done a Taiwan KOM. Was that harder than Taiwan? weren't uh the last bit of that was really hard because it sort of did like a thousand vertical meters in like 10k no must mean less than that it's really short it got incredibly i can't do the last but yeah it got incredibly steep at the end and that happens at altitude so there were people getting off their bikes and being sick which was really disgusting but uh i feel that the it's anything altitude that's what gets has got me anyway because electros is the same thing where you kind of go over 3 ,000 meters and then your legs sort of go pop.

1:01:13And then it's just really hard to find any energy, even though you don't feel knackered. You just can't do it. It's like when your nerves go in your hands from cold and you can't grip something. It's just like, why won't this work? It all feels like it should. Anyway, so that was hard. At the top you get kind of sugar cane water with little lumps of cheese in it, which sounds disgusting, but it's actually really delicious. So it's sugary and it's cheesy at the same time? It's kind of sugary. It's like kind of paneer. It's called Agua Panelo Con Cueto or something like that. I've mangled that entirely.

1:01:47But it's a classic mountain kind of sustenance drink, part drink, part soup, part food, and then they serve it in a little cafe at the top. And my goodness, it tastes good at that time. Gives you everything you need. 3 ,600 meters. Was that the hardest climb or the best climb you'd done? I reckon it was probably one of the best climbs because it was part of just generally being in Colombia trip, which was amazing because I hadn't been there before and it's super, it's just such a sick place. I loved it. Did you feel like you were channeling all the classic Colombian cyclists? I was a escalabar.

1:02:21Again, I said that completely wrong. That translates as the beetle. I was, yeah, I was Lucho Herrera and who else was a big, go on, you've got some good encyclopedic knowledge. Maricentona? No, I was going to go for an older one. I've never been able to find this here's the end of the show tangents that I ask all the questions and I'm just bathering on about something completely different I've never been able to find clarification of this story so if anyone's listening this far and they've ever heard this story then tell me there was a Colombian cyclist who was one of the early riders like with Luis Herrera who was called Little Gardner wasn't he?

1:03:00was that his name? and he won I think he won something in Spain and one of the prizes, because you know you get like mad prizes per stage from the little kind of municipality you're in, was this like bull, like this prize bull. And so then he was like, cool, I'll take that back with me. Obviously that just didn't work, flying a bull back to Columbia. So it got stuck in customs and then just like lived out his life a bit like Tom Hanks in a terminal in this airport until it sort of withered and died. And I just thought it was one of the weirdest, most heartbreaking stories. Surely that wouldn't have happened.

1:03:33I think this was in the 80s, and loads of mad shit happened in the 80s. But then, like, the people that work in the airport got to look after the bull. Surely they'd just give it to someone. They'd just be like, no, this isn't going anywhere. But at that point, it's probably in quarantine and you're not allowed to have it, because it's considered to... It would have to hang around and pass various anti-disease tests. I'd have watched that episode of Airport. Is that show still going? I don't know. Is Jeremy from it still with us? I don't know. Isn't it funny, all those people from... It was airport, late 90s, early 2000s.

1:04:05They became, ordinary people became like these stratospheric celebrities for the briefest point in time. You had Jeremy, you had Maureen from the driving one. Do you remember that? No. It was like about a driving instructor. And there was the guy from like, the kind of compare guy from The Coach, which was about people going on coach trips. And there was Howard from the Halifax adverts. So bringing back those days. No longer at Halifax. no longer was he gone to another bank Starling I don't know but I think he left Halifax in some controversy a couple of years ago I know do you want to tell me your favourite Climbing Master type, can you do two things at once?

1:04:47I've got a few I've been thinking about this I'm not sure it's a tricky one, I've really enjoyed, and I'm going to butcher the pronunciation, the Alto de Gammonetero in Asturias in Spain, I thought that was really great but hard but basically turned into a cycle path for the last second half it goes very high it's like the compared to avantix it's got a radio tower at the top but it was it was uh very wet that half of the day and very misty so there could be a great view off the side but i never saw it i love those but it made it feel a lot more epic crap photos but when you're doing it does feel pretty it feels it feels kind of almost a bit scary doesn't it which is yeah which just adds to it yeah and i was riding with a very good spanish triathlete who was really struggling to go as slow as i was i was just sort of i was like i'm just gonna like slowly grind my way to the top here and he was just looking behind like do i have to wait for you it's choking it down with rain and i should just say just for context as an aside if anyone's listening to the psychics magazine podcast and just hasn't clocked that the magazine in the title indicates we're also a magazine which we are and you can buy us part of the mainstay well the mainstay of the magazine uh is our riding and what we're talking about here is we do a lot of rides for the magazine so that's why will's going out to spain and riding with an incredibly good spanish triathlete that he's never met before because you go over well you can explain how it works how does it work will this is a little behind the scenes this is an easter egg it's not an easter egg is it this is just a kind of director's cut of the dvd right now yeah well in this particular one it's quite funny.

1:06:20We go over, we get to the hotel. This was arranged by the tourist board. And they're not all arranged by tourist boards, but we went there, went to the hotel, the guide, who's a local guide slash coach, and he is the coach of this triathlete, which is why he became the one to ride with us. While Javi, who was the guide, was driving our photographer, because the pictures have got to be taken. Spoilers. They do. So Javi comes in, he looks at the routes that I've been given by our boss, Pete, to be like you know we want this is the climb the ride we want you to do he got he looks at them as a he's a basc man but he's lives in the local astorias area astorias being home to like the angler and other such hard steep climbs he looks at the really looks at me and he's like you know this is hard right he had zero faith zero faith that i could do i could do this right he's like yeah that's that's the point he said no we could do this route i was like no no we want to get that climb in so oh okay and then we spend a few days working around the rain to do another climb and basically the whole time he is like i worked out by the end of the week that it was his coaching method was to basically tell you you are rubbish and you will not get up this climb as a motivational tool so there was no way that i wasn't getting up the climbs because he was like i bet you five euro you won't get up that climb and it's like well and that's not happening but we got there in the end and it was yeah it was very good and he he was coaching this spanish triathlete who also briefly had his own internet fame after there was a what a triathlon and he'd gone viral for so he was racing for third alongside this british guy and the british guy went off the course he took the wrong turn and diego waited for him in a sporting way to let the guy take third place and will smith shared it as an amazing story on his uh social media and went the will very viral fresh prince fresh prince yeah um went very viral and he said will smith sent him like a bike and a lot of other stuff as a that's a nice one do you recommend as well like a really shit bike because i've got that feed you only see celebrities with loads of money and then they're just on like these absolutely awful bikes it wasn't actually i think it was a very nice specialised bike but unfortunately I don't think he can ride it because he has his own sponsors

1:08:45and how we laugh well big up yourself Diego what a lovely sporting moment triathlons littered with those obviously the Brownlee brothers top of that pile yeah also good climbs before I forget Portoil which you've done as well very good and I've also done a bit of a gravel bit after that which was quite difficult but then descending off that down you know one of those little mountain roads which is the concrete block but it's ridged so the cars can drive up and descending on that fully shaking on my way down this was like the first gravel ride i've ever done absolutely pulling my pants and then i slightly came off the concrete block and then had to save it but that was fun oh those are mad those roads aren't they they've got yeah they sort of like they just poured concrete slats as opposed to actual tarmac because they're so steep that the tarmac would roll down the slope so they have to lay it in concrete slab sections.

1:09:38And also, I think it's cheaper. Also, what's the big one that sat on the edge that I did semi-recently a couple years ago? The big one on the edge. Montegrappa. Montegrappa. Montegrappa. Montegrappa is a fantastic climb. I did love that climb. Although, I did it sort of under the auspices of the magazine but it never actually came to anything because we're out there seeing a bike brand which i don't know if it still exists anymore called epoca and um they were just like yeah come to our factory the guy told me some brilliant stories about how they used to build bikes for eddie merckx and he said that any merckx used to drive down or drive wherever from you know up down left right somewhere from belgium to this factory a sound of the grappa in like northern italy and he just like drink beers on the way down really in his car but anyway apparently and then you get out and then he go he's like and you go around the corner here and you stand right here in the car park and just take a piss and start talking to me and that was eddie merks i'm like really that's such an odd story that i feel like it has to be true but upon reflection i just can't believe that anyway so um we go there go and look at the factory and then they're like oh yeah james you want to do some riding afterwards you brought your kit and i'm like i haven't bought my kit actually don't worry we've got some for you here you go but it's one of those like really long Italian lunches in the middle of the high heat of the day where you're just given loads of food and obviously I'm quite greedy and it's free so you eat it plus the wine and then they're like brilliant we'll see you at the top yeah and they just like drove me out because they're like absolutely like they were just hell bent on me using one of their bikes that day and they're like yeah it's just like it's one of our local climb and then I just wrote it goes on for so long if anyone's ridden Monte Grappa it starts off and you kind of you kind of there's a few hairpins and you get kind of higher and you can see over i don't know the valley this bit of the sort of distant village town a bit so there's that sensation you're climbing and then you go into trees and then you just don't really know what's going on and then it sort of feels like you're well you are kind of going downhill yeah is that right there's a sort of fault falls flat the natural downhill and you're like ah cursing gravity because it's taking away these um precious one meters in elevation and then you pop out and you're on the side of this sort of pretty bald looking i mean it's like fields but you can just see the road and you're like that's so far away and I'm not sure what day you did it but when I did it there were loads of people doing paragliding off the top which really gives you a sense of horrible scale because they're tiny these little like fluorescent dots going and you're like okay well I can now infer from their position that's where I need to go and it's really exposed and they're not even jumping from the top oh yeah they're not the top is a sacred war monument you can't be knocking around it though it is yeah that's the other thing yeah but paragliders got stuck in a tree when i was climbing up it which was did you cycle past him was he dangling in a kind of common sort of fashion stuck in the tree they had to get like the rescued thing up yeah they looked they weren't too high up and they looked uninjured but um yeah quite funny but yeah then they jump off from like halfway because you sort of you climb up loads of it and then you sort of go along the top of the mountain but it's still climbing that all the way to the top and then you get to the there's a little cafe and a pretty impressive war memorial It is a very impressive war memorial.

1:13:01It looks almost like aliens have built it or something It's just like It's like what Mount Olympus should be Yes, it's like a kind of brutalist Mount Olympus Do you think, what's less or what's more boring two people talking about a climb that the listeners may not have done or someone showing you their GoPro footage of doing any ride ever. Yeah, interesting. No, probably the GoPro, but it depends because the GoPro thing, especially if you're going uphill, it's like, this is just so slow. But it's why people like the Seth O 'Brien guy. If you go on the descent and, well, as long as you're actually doing something fairly interesting to make it entertaining.

1:13:43Some of it is good. I've had a couple of entertaining GoPro watches before. I feel like it's better when you get the sort of pretty good but not pro like crit racing and you get it on there and they're like and and they're all like shoulders out really cutting each other on the corners i feel like that's quite entertaining that is quite in center and they're quite entertaining easy for you to say on that point and we'll round up on this do you reckon meta glasses which are meta being facebook whatsapp ai glasses so little cameras our colleague lawrence has just been testing some they've got a collaboration with oakley also there in ray-bans various other sunglasses so little cameras that film stuff based on maybe your heart rate it could turn on when your heart rate's up or you could just say hey meta film me buying a pint at a bar and it's got speakers in there as well so you can listen through that and lauren said loads of people had them on possibly yeah to listen to motivational messages i had them on their tap that he did recently and i saw some comment on them on Instagram or something being like yeah this is going to revolutionize pro cycling do you reckon that could ever be a thing because we saw it in the world cup with like ref cam where you could see what the referees could see from a little camera on their heads and maybe everyone could wear AI glasses and then you would get that mad in the bunch sort of footage that you just described with that crit stuff yeah so they do that with I think some of them that occasionally stick a little GoPro on the back but I feel like being able to actually see the point of view because I've seen lawrence's footage from the attack on a couple of the descents and the camera quality is really good like i feel like gopro etc will be very nervous about the quality of the glasses camera considering how small the actual camera part is and he says the sound quality is really good as well but um he also did say that as glasses they weren't necessarily the best so i think they'd probably need to make some improvements before they're being used in pro races but definitely you wouldn't even need to have everyone doing it you just have a couple of riders that have got it on and you could see like get a point of view from inside a bunch print would be pretty insane like imagine if you had like Mark Cavendish with the glasses camera on but I feel like it wouldn't work thinking about it because something I'm just reminded of how they did have them on I think Giant had them on bicycles as in cameras what you just described cameras under seats and they had footage and then then other riders got really annoyed about it.

1:16:11And they sort of said, we don't want you, basically we don't want people to see what goes on in sprints. We don't want you to hear us shouting and swearing at each other. The argue, I don't know. They just got, is it Vellon at the time? Which was a sort of like riders, still going with sort of riders union. I think they sort of went, yeah, we don't want this. And it kind of stopped. I think Vellon do them now. Oh, was Vellon the one who was pushing it? Maybe Vellon was pushing it and there was backlash against Vellon. But yeah, I felt like it sort of ended up, coming to nothing because the rider's just like, no, we don't want...

1:16:42Because in essence, you could put whatever you want on your bike unless maybe ASO owns the rights of you filming its race, i.e. the Tour de France. They would do, yes. That's why you get YouTubers who have filmed stuff at the Tour have basically been said you can't actually include any footage of the race. It's totally mad, isn't it? Because it's ours. I love how they... I think the Tour de France still reckons it's the most watched sporting event on earth. Yeah. That's the snooker. it's massive in China Snooker's huge in China a lot of things are huge in China China's huge in China China's huge in China Wales is huge in China there's a big wall I've heard there's a big wall yeah is there a big war in China wall wall oh there's a big wall yeah it's great I've heard 100 Greatest Walls by Will Strixon right