Beth Raymer is obsessed with gambling

0:00David Greene: If you'd like to join the Obsessed community, head over to joincampsite.com. We'll give you updates on episodes, some behind-the-scenes access, and a whole lot more. That's joincampsite.com. Hope to see you there. Just a note here before we get started, this episode does contain discussion of both gambling addiction and suicide. Take care while listening, and you can see our show notes if you want more resources and information.

0:27Beth Raymer: Campsite Media.

0:33Hey, everybody.

0:34David Greene: This is David Green is Obsessed. I'm David Green. This is the show where we talk about all our obsessions, try and work them out and figure out what we can learn from them. And I want to start today by telling you a little bit about my mom. When she passed away in 2006, I had to pay off her debts because I was handling everything. And paying off debts meant doing a lot of things. One of those things was taking a trip to a very sketchy guy's house. It was a few miles from where my mom lived. It was her sports bookie. I owed a few thousand dollars because my mom was in debt to her sports bookie.

1:13David Greene: And the last thing I wanted was to have some guy chasing me down just as I was in the healing process. But I'm going to be totally honest with you. I think paying off that debt itself was kind of healing. It brought back so many memories of me and my mom and gambling. You know, my parents were divorced, had a great relationship with my father, but it was mostly me and my mother when I was growing up. And we would gamble a good bit. I mean, it wasn't like astronomical losses, but we'd love going to the racetrack together. We'd love going with our neighbor to an off-track wagering facility in a strip mall in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

1:56David Greene: I also spent most of my summers growing up in Atlantic City where my mom grew up. We would visit my grandmother and the three of us would go up to the boardwalk. My Nana would play the slots. My mom would play blackjack, but mostly craps. That was her game. And when I was too young, I would wander the boardwalk, play in the arcades and, you know, be outside on the beach and then meet my mom and Nana at a prearranged time. And sometimes I would meet up with them. My mom would have the smile on her face. She was holding a stack of hundred dollar bills. She'd be celebrating and we would go out for lobster or go out for Italian food.

2:38David Greene: Sometimes though, she looked pretty miserable. And those are the times when I was a little afraid because she would tell me to go home with my Nana back to my Nana's condo. And my mom said that she was going to stay up on the boardwalk by herself. And very often I'd be asleep in Nana's apartment and I would hear my mom tiptoeing in, shutting the door gently at two, three in the morning, not saying anything. And I just knew, I knew that it wasn't good. I knew that she had lost a good bit of money. And that was hard because we weren't exactly rich when I was growing up. My mom was a college professor.

3:21David Greene: We lived for a time in Kentucky. And she was in such credit card debt that she had to go bankrupt, which a lot of people do. But I remember that it was humiliating and confusing. And we go to the grocery store, the Piggly Wiggly to get groceries. And she would cash a check with the cashier and tell me that she knew there wasn't money in her checking account to cover it. But she'd take some of the cash from the cash check, get groceries, and then stick the rest in her bank account to cover that check. Somehow she just made it work. But then we'd go to Atlantic City and she would gamble. And I was just confused.

4:01David Greene: Like, when is it too much given whatever your finances are and whatever your reality is? And so I still gamble today. I gamble on sports. I love going to the casino, but I always think about my mom in a really positive way. I can't sit at a craps table without thinking about her, but also I think about the importance of being disciplined because I remember so vividly the fear when I thought that she was going too far. So this is what I want to talk about today, gambling. When is it an obsession? When is it an addiction? And what role does it play in our lives? And I'm going to bring in someone who knows about this very well.

4:46David Greene: She's a journalist and author in New York City. Her name is Beth Raymer. She's written about gambling and she's been a gambler herself and we're going to talk to her in just a minute all right we're back with more david green is obsessed uh thank you all for joining us uh i really appreciate it i'm david green i am maybe obsessed with gambling among other things and my guest today is author and journalist uh beth ramer who's the author of a book uh called lay the favorite a memoir of gambling it also became a movie about her life with a hell of a cast. Vince Vaughn, Catherine Zeta-Jones, Bruce Willis.

5:29David Greene: I believe you, Beth, were played by Rebecca Hall. Is that right?

5:33Beth Raymer: Yes, right.

5:33David Greene: Well, thanks for being here.

5:35Beth Raymer: Thank you for having me.

5:37David Greene: How often do you watch that movie? Do you watch a movie about your life over and over again? Or do you put it to the side and never think about it? I put it to the side. Did it reflect your life, do you feel like?

5:48Beth Raymer: my life not really maybe a small time in my life the cast of characters um very much a snapshot i guess um you know lay the favorite the memoir i wrote it only takes place in like a four year period that's where the action happens when i worked when i started working for a professional gambler in Vegas. That's the beginning. And by the end, I was working for an offshore betting agency in Central America. So it's just that journey that only went on for four years of my life. But like you, I had a childhood full of the ups and downs of gambling, a parent who gambled. So there's a lot of flashbacks.

6:40Beth Raymer: And yeah.

6:42David Greene: Well, tell me, tell me about childhood. Tell me about the parent who gambled and tell me some of the memories there.

6:47Beth Raymer: Oh, gosh, it's kind of I mean, just listening to you talk. I had a very similar childhood. My dad was the gambler. Blackjack was probably his biggest game, but really he would bet on anything. But being at the blackjack table with my father, still, I mean, just the feelings just come back because when I was growing up, my dad would take me gambling. Like I always just went with him. And we would go, we lived in Florida, so we would take junkets to the Bahamas. And in the late 80s or even early 80s, kids were allowed in the casinos. It's not like how it is now. I'm so jealous.

7:32David Greene: I wanted to be in there so much. It was a magical world.

7:36Beth Raymer: I would just go sit with my dad at the table. The dealers would deal me in as almost like a, it's the equivalent of when you go to the bar. When I would go to the bar with my dad, the bartender would give me a Shirley Temple. It was just so I could be part of the environment. Well, this was the same thing. They would deal me in the game and I knew how to play blackjack. I played blackjack a lot with my dad. What age were you now?

7:59David Greene: Are we talking like nine, 10? Well,

8:01Beth Raymer: my sister would go and buy weed. So I must, she must've been a teenager. So I was probably like 10.

8:09David Greene: Okay.

8:10Beth Raymer: Blackjack player 10.

8:11David Greene: I love that.

8:11Beth Raymer: So it's, but it was very emotional. My dad, you know, just the way that he would choose a dealer, we would have to look for a deal. My dad did not like dealers who, who talked. He liked the very like silent dealers.

8:25David Greene: Interesting. I like the talkers. I like the conversation at the...

8:28Beth Raymer: Oh, my dad would, if we got a talk, if like there was an exchange and the one dealer left and a new chatty dealer came in, my dad would like stop the game, stand up. My dad had a real big physical presence, very tall, good looking, charismatic. And like, I remember just being like, oh God, you know, my dad would just like say, cash me out and we would go find another silent dealer. So being at the table, it wasn't such a joyful thing. It was an intense thing where my dad was throwing down thousands of dollars. And, you know, and I am just sitting there like riding the wave with him. And it was just intense.

9:10Beth Raymer: I remember the big losses. I remember the big wins. But of course, it's all very poker face. And there's not the celebration until you step outside when you leave the table. And my dad would sit there for hours and hours and hours and hours, and I would sit there with him. And were you enjoying it the whole time?

9:27David Greene: Or do you remember being afraid, being like, should I tell him to leave? I mean, was there conflict?

9:34Beth Raymer: I would not dream of telling my dad to leave the blackjack table. I was just like, dream blackjack companion when my dad won. Oh, dad, when he lost. Oh, it's okay. Next one, we're going to win. I was just like this champion mascot to my gambling addicted father.

9:54David Greene: So as your life goes on and, you know, leading up to when you ended up, you know, heading to Vegas, you know, you were working for some time in Florida as a private dancer, right?

10:06Beth Raymer: Yeah.

10:07David Greene: Tell me the journey into – is that the right word? You tell me if I'm –

10:12Beth Raymer: It's so funny. I don't really know what it's called, but at the time, you know, this was in Tallahassee and, um, I was a social work, uh, student. And, you know, when you go to college, you hit this part and it's your senior year, your last year of college where you have to do an unpaid internship, um, full time. And that was going to be very hard for me because I was already waitressing, you know, putting myself through college. And I was like, how in the hell am I going to take on a 40 hour, and it was at, it was the I had to work with the Department of Children and Families. So it's a very, it's a State Department internship.

10:48Beth Raymer: And I was like, I have to be there truly from nine to five. The only way I could, I thought that I could kind of keep my academic career going and graduate was I needed a job that started at night that I made a lot of money because I was going to have to quit my waitressing job because the shift started at four. and so I started stripping and it was a very good decision I made a lot of money I was able to pay for my I remember just paying for my last semester or maybe I was even in debt I was paying with cash and I just went there and like life became very easy because I had money and so all the things that I was like struggling with before, they totally went away.

11:36Beth Raymer: And yeah, and that was because of stripping. The only other person I've ever heard talk about like how positive stripping can be is Cardi B. Like she talks a lot about how it's a very good business decision if you have the right mindset and you get in and you get out. You don't linger in the stripping world. You just Kind of do what you have to do and go. And that's what I did.

12:01David Greene: So you and Carly B are aligned there. I mean, no regrets. And you think it was a really good business decision.

12:06Beth Raymer: It was a very good business decision. I do look back. There were a few moments. And I don't even really remember this part so fully. But there was a guy who pulled a gun. I was in incredibly stressful situations. but somehow I was like, it didn't phase me so much. I was like, Oh, you know, these people, he has a gun. He's been doing Coke. I'm, I'm not high. I'm going to get out of this. And then I would just go on with, I know.

12:38David Greene: It's just the two of you in the, two of you in a room, you're with

12:40Beth Raymer: a guy and you're at gunpoint.

12:42David Greene: Yes.

12:42Beth Raymer: And that's what would happen. You know, if you're like, you know, some, is this the direction we want this to go in this interview? But you know, There is a lot of drug use. And so you're managing your client's drug use, you know, or you're like kind of, I was young, 22 years old. And it's in Tallahassee. So my customers are just across the spectrum from college professors, people in politics, it's the capital. you know but then you have the guys who just kind of are retired and do a lot of drugs and they call you at four in the after whatever the seven in the evening they don't even really know what time it is and you're just hanging out with them and then by the time it's 11 they're just really high and then but you're just still hanging out with them you know and then like all kinds of things can happen when someone's been on a bender.

13:39Beth Raymer: And so I did get into like those situations, uh, like a couple of times.

13:43David Greene: And you're doing this and in those, those, what sounds to me like very scary situations and you're, and by day you're going to school. Um, like what were you studying?

13:54Beth Raymer: Social work. And so I had my, yeah, I had my social work internship. I go, I was like working in McCullough County and child welfare work. I would have to go to like court, you know, so it was very like double, very double light feeling, but the same concept. You're going into people's houses, you know, you're, you're in these awkward situations, having to tell people things they might not want to hear or trying to navigate things where you're uncomfortable. My job at, as a social work student was to make sure that men weren't in the houses. Like a lot of the families had restraining orders or for whatever, whatever reason.

14:35Beth Raymer: So I'd have to do surprise visits, you know, and look to see if the guys were around. That was like this split screen

14:42David Greene: is stunning to me. The idea of you're like both day and night spending time, like in people's homes, trying to sort of navigate a difficult environment, but into completely different roles. And that's, that's amazing. So how, how does Vegas happen? Because I'm, I'm imagining, you know, this, this young woman in college, um, who, you know, is thinking about social work and kind of what career you want, um, you know, stripping at night to support yourself and, and then the decision to, to move to Vegas, like what, what went through your mind and how did you get there?

15:18Beth Raymer: I mean, I was just, um, by this point I had an actual social work job and I got fired from it. And I was only a social worker, like a real social worker for probably three months. I was just too young to be a social worker and I didn't have boundaries. And so I got fired and I had a boyfriend whose parents had a restaurant in Las Vegas. And he was like, let's go to Vegas, work at my parents' restaurant and then continue with our dreams. He was actually in film school at Florida State. And I was like, oh, that sounds great. And so then we went and we broke up right away. And so again, I was like, oh, I think I'm just going to stay in Las Vegas because I loved it so much.

16:02Beth Raymer: It was a lot of fun. It was unique. And very soon when I decided to stay, I met someone who introduced me to the person who would become my first gambling boss.

16:15David Greene: And that's a guy named Dink, right? So tell me about him and for people who don't understand the way Las Vegas works, like who is Dink and what role did he play in the gambling world?

16:28Beth Raymer: Dink was a professional gambler and, you know, but in Las Vegas, and he's a professional sports gambler. So this required like an, he had an operation. He had an office, a lot of staff, all the televisions, the, hundreds of thousands of dollars on the desk that I as a runner would just like grab, throw in my backpack, go and make bets at the casinos. It was a very, he wrote, it was like a real operation. I did not know any of that when I met this person who introduced me to Dink. I was clueless as to what to expect. But he was the one who showed me the ropes. He was someone who had been a bookmaker in Queens for years and had gotten arrested and went to a halfway house.

17:20Beth Raymer: And he couldn't, he wasn't comfortable being a bookie again, because if he got arrested again, it would be major prison time. So he kind of had to be a gambler, which is a much harder way to make a living compared to being a bookie. So he's the one who kind of taught me everything. And I I ended up working for him for many years. And through him, I met a lot of other gambling bosses who were bookies in New York City, which was very interesting. I went offshore to the Caribbean. I helped open an offshore sports betting business there. That was wild. And then it finally ended up in Costa Rica, where finally I said I can't do it anymore.

18:07David Greene: what did what did you like about this world once you know dink brought you in and he was a professional gambler and making tons of money and you know what we should say i i guess lay the favorite i mean the name of your book that's what you learned from dink it was playing against the favorite and kind of playing the spreads on um really wisely on on games and so forth to to know how to to maximize your profits but like what i mean what what did you like about it it sounds like you were brought into this world so quickly and so immersively.

18:40Beth Raymer: Yes, it was like the learning curve was just tremendous. I was the only woman most of the time. I was one of the youngest. Almost everyone I was working with was in their like 40s, 50s, 60s. I loved the freedom. I loved having very unconventional bosses. All of them were geniuses in one way or another, usually with math, almost all of them had worked on Wall Street at some point and just did not want that, you know, the square life. And I liked that I had like a very similar mindset. I didn't want to set an alarm and go to work and do all that. I wanted to be free and have fun and wear my tank top and Converse just to work every day.

19:30Beth Raymer: And And when I wanted to go work out, I'd go work out and I'd come back to work. It was just so free and easy. But of course, it's not because underneath of that, just like being at the blackjack table, there's so many emotions and so much darkness and people going broke and suicide and gambling really, truly does ruin families. but it's hard to see when you're so deep in it and when your boss is winning and when you're making money and like those very dark things would pop up I don't know like once every like five months and I remember always being so shocked that something had happened um like something

20:16David Greene: negative you were living this kind of like you know fantasy fantasy life and all of a sudden it's like wait a minute it could all go away or someone could be really hurt because of all this money on the line.

20:26Beth Raymer: Well, yeah. Or like Dink would get robbed like a bit. And, you know, he would get robbed for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars. And I would just be like, what are you going to do? What are we going to do? And it's like, are you really going to try to go after the guy or what's going to happen? And then the guy who like stole the money would call and he would be like, I lost it all. I'm going to kill myself. You know, so just this world of just such high stakes, high emotion. The backdrop of it all was just a lot to take in about human nature.

21:04David Greene: But the back, there is something about the backdrop. And I, I know that people who don't love Vegas have no idea what the hell I'm talking about when I tell them why I love it so much. But even, I mean, every trip I go on, even today, I love it. I'll, you know, if I'm on a work trip to Vegas or if I go with friends or if I'm passing through for work or something on my own, I've gone to Vegas to just like spend a weekend betting on sports, watching my Pittsburgh Steelers at a Steelers bar in Vegas. And then just wandering the strip or, you know, like one, two in the morning, there's something I still find intoxicating about it.

21:46David Greene: It's like a lot of lost souls who have found this place where you can be accepted and not have to think about anything negative. I don't know. I just connected so much with your story and kind of your years in Vegas and those feelings. But what does that say about us?

22:06Beth Raymer: I think it kind of says we're supposed to be in the arts.

22:10David Greene: Interesting. I like that. Say more.

22:14Beth Raymer: Well, no, I think there is something that there are a lot of lost souls in Vegas and you kind of have to, I don't know. It's the feeling I feel about being a writer. I mean, my writer friends are very lost souls and they've had a lot of ups and downs in life, you know, and they've kind of tried to find this way to get around the system and capitalism and stuff. And is it going to work for any of us? Who knows? It's a major gamble. Some days feel great. Some days feel so absolutely what have I gotten myself into? And that's kind of the mood of Vegas. I love my favorite thing, just like you, wandering Las Vegas Boulevard, really downtown Las Vegas at like three in the morning.

23:03David Greene: Yeah.

23:03Beth Raymer: Three in the morning. And there used to be, I don't know if it's still there, but there was this bank that showed the temperature and it would be like 111 degrees at like four and three in the morning and going into the El Cortez and like putting money on double zero on the roulette table. Like this was just so like life was just at its peak amazingness when I would do this. And I do sometimes I get that feeling back right when I kind of, I don't know, get a book deal or when I send my final proposal to my editor to see if she'll buy the next book. And it's the same thing of like, is it going to land on double zero?

23:45Beth Raymer: How much money am I going to be offered? Will I be able to make enough to just get me through the writing of the book? It's the same kind of psychic math and emotions and hope that I felt at a table.

24:01David Greene: I think you're pointing to something that I feel, and I know you've written about too, that kind of the when parents model something for you and imprint some sort of behavior or way to approach life it's like impossible to to make that go away and there's something about you either fight it or you embrace it and I think I love embracing it as long as it's not dangerous and letting myself love life in that way and going to Vegas and walking the strip late at night But I do, I wanted to ask you about kind of how you've reflected on your dad, you know, now that you're a writer and, you know, write for places like the New York Times and write books.

24:49David Greene: I know he passed away in the pandemic, right? I'm so sorry.

24:53Beth Raymer: Okay. Thank you.

24:56David Greene: You wrote a piece in the New York Times about, and the way you framed it was that your father taught you the benefits of delusion. which seems to capture a lot of what we're talking about. Why do those words, do you think, capture this relationship?

25:12Beth Raymer: The relationship I had with my father?

25:14David Greene: Yeah.

25:15Beth Raymer: Well, you know, because he kind of walked this thin line of being this hard worker person in the world. It's really hard to describe, but, you know, my father ended up homeless, on the streets, homeless. And a big reason why he got there was because of his gambling and just bad, bad financial habits, which I have completely inherited, which I try so hard. And I do all these things to kind of not do them. But yeah, they're definitely a part of me. They're inside of me. It's how internal, external. This is totally what my father passed down to me. But my dad got so far in life with the having fun attitude.

26:14Beth Raymer: I don't know if I'm making any sense, but I think it was just really hard for me to, when, you know, when the house was finally lost, we lost it in the foreclosure. And just, you know, I was so kind of it took me a while to really understand what was happening, which is ignorant of me. But he just like wanted to live on the street. This was very difficult for me because I kept on being like, Dad, I'm going to get you an apartment. I'm going to put down first, last and security. I did this so many times because in my mind, it's like, oh, dad's just maybe this is what happens to older people. when they take a lot of risks.

26:54Beth Raymer: I want, I'm, I'm glad my dad didn't have some conventional life, you know, that he modeled to me. I want to show him how much I appreciate this, this spirit that he passed down to me. I'll keep getting in these apartments. And I would spend so much money and he would just like leave the apartment and just go onto the streets. And he basically, I mean, you were, he had lost his house.

27:20David Greene: Yes, it was such a choice.

27:21Beth Raymer: It was almost like his obsession with freedom and his maverick ways, like just overcame his entire brain. Like he couldn't even stand to be like enclosed in a house.

27:36David Greene: sounds a little like you loving vegas i mean i know it's so scary and this is what scares me

27:42Beth Raymer: and kind of like when you were talking about how it's kind of scary when you have you know that when you've been exposed to this because it's like i all i can think is i'm capable of that if my father if it happened to my father it can happen to me it's like there's no that i have sold books that i have a master's degree like none of it matters

28:02David Greene: because we're always on the brink because of who we are and where we come from in some way yeah and the modeling or like i i think you said like i'm always afraid i might take it

28:14Beth Raymer: too far um yeah like i have those feelings too and i'm you know raising a child on my own so it's like i have to in new york city as a writer and so i have to really stay focused i mean your story about how you, you know, how you felt toward your mom. And also just kind of like the son paying off for gambling debts. I had when you were telling that story, I was like, oh, my God, that could be my son talking about me in the future, like how it was just the two of you. Not that I'm going to have gambling debts, I don't think. But like, what if I own a loan shark money? who knows. But like, I have to like really rein it in because I'm so attracted and open to risk.

29:07David Greene: Beth, let me, let me ask you, take me back to Costa Rica. Like what, what was the, what was the moment when you decided like, I, this sort of gambling profession is not the right path?

29:21Beth Raymer: Oh my gosh. Well, there were like two, I mean, there were many times through lay the favorite where I'm like, this business is too crazy. I want to leave. And I would always get drawn back to it for all different kinds of reasons. But in Costa Rica, basically the business went bust in Curacao, Island of Curacao. So we moved to Costa Rica to kind of like recover. And I just found it depressing. It was during rainy season. The sun would like set at four o 'clock. There were some earthquakes. I think just environmentally, I was like, get me out of here. And I just remember eating this empanada, sitting in this parking lot.

30:04Beth Raymer: And I'm just like, what has happened? And I was getting older. I was like 28, which now seems so young. But of course, all my friends by now have graduated law school. They're having babies. And I am just in this parking lot, whatever. I think I wasn't even wearing shoes in the image. I have in my memory. And so I was like, I'm leaving. And I left like the next day. And then I went on an interview. I'm like, I'm really gonna like try to be an upstanding person in society. I don't even care. I will work at Citibank, whatever. I went on an interview. And during I think I put on my resume that I had worked in sports gambling.

30:45Beth Raymer: I actually I didn't know any better. And the guy interviewing me was like, you know, you work in sports gambling, I love to gamble. He's like, you know, you're like, I'm trying to get away from this. But this guy was such a square. And he's like, I swear, he's like wearing a New York jets from head to toe, his whole outfit. And I'm just thinking, oh my God, if I put him in an office, I will kill it. Cause I'm going to get a percentage of his losing, you know, what he loses. So he's like, you know, do you know anybody I can gamble with? And I'm like, yes. And so this started a whole new, kind of like my last part of being in gambling.

31:24David Greene: Did you take the job that you were interviewing for?

31:27Beth Raymer: He didn't offer me the job.

31:28David Greene: Oh, he just wanted to use you for your... Yeah. Oh, you became his bookie. So you kept going a little bit longer.

31:32Beth Raymer: I was like that. Yes. I became the person, like the middle man. And I made some money from him. Of course, he introduces me to all of his friends. I'm now putting them in offices. is because this is how the world works. But again, rather quickly, because he actually didn't pay. He didn't pay me one week after losing a ton of money. And very soon after that, I quit again. And that's when I also got accepted to graduate school at Columbia.

32:04David Greene: And you went on to begin your writing career.

32:07Beth Raymer: Yes. It all happened around the same time. I remember being in my Vegas apartment and I was really trying to get this guy to give me money. And I was having people call him and threaten him and pretend that they were my boss, all this stuff. And I was in my Las Vegas apartment in Summerlin. I'd never, this is like the nicest apartment I've had in Las Vegas. And a 212 number popped up on my cell phone. And I was like, it's Dave Greenberg. That was his name. He's calling from a pay phone. And I'm like, okay, I'm going to, this is my one chance to like tell him I need this money. And I answered it and it was Mike Janeway at Columbia telling me that I had gotten accepted.

32:50David Greene: What an amazing moment.

32:52Beth Raymer: I know. And right when that happened, I hung up the phone and I was like, I do not care about Dave Greenberg. I do not care about the money. I will get it. I know I will. But I just completely kind of like my spirit just moved out of the gambling world, like instantaneously.

33:11David Greene: What, what, um, I know this is a bigger question that we could, we could spend a lot of time on, but what advice do you have for people, um, in terms of how to find the balance?

33:23Beth Raymer: I thought you'd say how to find a good bookie.

33:27David Greene: And also offline, I'm going to ask you if you have advice on a new bookie for me, but let's take that offline. I'm curious. Um, got some bets in mind it's the beginning of it's the beginning of football season soon um uh but do you have a good bookie yeah okay good um send me the number but like honestly what like what advice do you have for for people who are you know not not rock bottom and and having to to call for but like sort of trying to manage this this love in their life um and also have other responsibility as a job, maybe kids, but also I love gambling.

34:08Beth Raymer: I don't know. I don't think I have any advice. I mean, I don't know how to do it. I don't know how anyone does it. A lot of people aren't able to do it. A lot of people are able to do it for, you know, balance it for a short amount of time in their life. I mean, how many gamblers I have been in this business for so long. I have met hundreds and hundreds of gamblers. How many of them own a house and have an intact family at the age of like 65? Zero. I don't know one. And those are successful ones who are making money. So.

34:47David Greene: So recognize the dangers. I guess that's one important.

34:51Beth Raymer: Definitely recognize the dangers. That's a big one. I mean, are we talking actual, actual like physical gambling? Of course there's money management, but I've never been able to do that. I have no self-control with anything like that. So I don't know. I'm sorry. I don't have any answers for anyone.

35:13David Greene: No, I think the answer is it's hard and there's no magic solution. But I love that I feel like we've really gotten a picture with each other in terms of A, don't assume that anyone is not a gambler. And B, it goes so much deeper. Like it's not just, oh, you know, I love the thrill. There can be relationships involved. There can be memories of parents. There can be experiences. it goes a lot deeper than we might think.

35:48Beth Raymer: Yes.

35:50David Greene: I would like to take a very quick break and then Beth Raymer and I are going to come back and I'm going to turn the tables a little bit and talk about what Beth Raymer is obsessed with. Not gambling. We're going to talk about some other stuff when we come right back.

36:11David Greene: All right, we're back with more. David Green is obsessed. I am with New York-based writer and journalist Beth Raymer, and I'm going to put you on the spot a little bit, Beth, in a kind of fun way. This is the part of the show that I'm going to call Beth Raymer is Obsessed. So let me ask you, what is an obsession in your life that you've never told anyone about, even the people closest to you, like your son and best friends?

36:39Beth Raymer: Oh, my gosh. I don't know. I tell everybody everything.

36:47David Greene: I'm kind of the same way.

36:51Beth Raymer: Something that I'm obsessed with, I don't think, I don't know. I honestly don't think I have many obsessions at all. The obsessions I have are like the, they're kind of like, I don't know, are they like existential obsessions? Maybe that's what they're called, but it's kind of like wonderment, understanding. I mean, this is what drives me as a writer. And so it's like, I always have to have that element in my life or I'm, you know, or I make sure to have that element in my life or else it feels like life isn't worth living. So I think that's like just a big obsession.

37:32David Greene: How do you define wonderment?

37:35Beth Raymer: wonderment to me is like something really big and confusing that that allows me to just like wonder about it for years and to like always like have some way of getting to an answer about like how something possibly happened or how could this person possibly think this way or something big where I get to like be the detective or like the forensic, whatever, to like find out exactly how this is occurring. And then once I do, usually I write something about it and then I get to move on to my next big wonderment.

38:17David Greene: Oh, I love that. Well, you're, um, I know your newest book is a novel. It's called Fireworks Every Night. Uh, does, does that fit into that sort of category of If you, there was wonderment and you wanted to explore something and discover.

38:32Beth Raymer: I mean, with that, I just wondered a lot about my childhood. And so there's a lot of, and I really wondered about the things I brought from my childhood into a marriage that I had. I wasn't married for very long at all, but I just wanted to like finally be able to set aside time to really understand like what happened? What was my influence? What was I bringing to the table as like this 29-year-old wife to this guy? So that's basically that whole thing allowed me, that book allowed me to do, you know, to find some answers about it.

39:08David Greene: I have not read your new novel yet, but I can't wait to grab it. What's an obsession in your life that will make all of us go, holy shit?

39:19Beth Raymer: I really don't think I have anything like that. I mean, what's yours? I don't have anything like that.

39:27David Greene: Holy shit. Mine is probably SoulCycle. It's really embarrassing.

39:38David Greene: It's just so different from the identity I like to have of myself, which is a hardcore journalist who loves to travel the world and go to war zones. I'm a big-time sports fan. I like drinking beer and watching football on weekends. Oh, by the way, I love this like bougie fitness program. I think that's, but I love it. I love the, I love the music. I love the dark room. So that's probably one that I think would be in the holy shit category. I don't know. Does that make you go holy shit or maybe just raise your eyebrows? I mean, that just seems so funny.

40:14Beth Raymer: You're right. It is, I guess, a little, a little out of character, but no, I don't think, I don't think really shit. I don't know. It would take a lot for me to be like, holy shit about somebody.

40:25David Greene: They would have to reveal something like, you know, earth shattering. Okay. Last one. Some kind of obsession that, and, you know, beyond, you know, gambling and, and the story we've kind of been talking about an obsession in your life that kind of scares you a little bit.

40:43Beth Raymer: Oh gosh. Obsession in my life that kind of scares me a little bit. I mean, I think it's just, and I think it just entwined though. I mean, I think I would just, I will do anything, you know, to have writing time. I feel like an addict how I am with my, how much time I get to write. Like if, if there's anything I can do, like to get an extra two or three hours in a writing, like I will do it. I just, I don't know. There's some, it's something like that. It's very like cancel, cancel dinner with friends.

41:19David Greene: Oh, well, yeah.

41:22Beth Raymer: Definitely that.

41:25David Greene: But even more radical.

41:27Beth Raymer: More radical. Just anything to, yeah, have the time to write, which it's hard to come by.

41:34David Greene: Well, everyone out there, if you want to read Beth's writing, that she will do anything to get done. Her memoir is Lay the Favorite, a memoir of gambling. Her newest novel is called Fireworks Every Night. Beth Raymer is a New York-based journalist and writer. Beth, thank you for being so honest and being so game to talk about this. Thank you so much.

41:58Beth Raymer: This was fun. Thank you.

42:03David Greene: If you or someone you know is struggling, help is available. In the United States, you can call or text 988 to reach the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. For support with gambling addiction, call the National Problem Gambling Helpline at 1-800-522-4700. If you're outside the United States, you can find local crisis resources at findahelpline.com. That's findahelpline.com.

42:36David Greene: David Green is obsessed as a production of Campside Media. It is hosted by me, David Green. Our senior producer is Lane Rose. We are mixed by Ewan Leitramuwen. The executive producers of Campside Media are Vanessa Gregoriadis, Matt Scherr, and Josh Dean. Special thanks to our operations team, Ashley Warren and Sabina Mara. If you have an obsession you would like to share, hope you do, you can send us an email. The address is obsessed at campsidemedia.com. That's obsessed at campsidemedia.com. And hey, if you enjoyed the show, please rate and review the show wherever you get your podcasts. Really appreciate you listening.

43:16David Greene: We all enjoy a little mystery. And with One Strange Thing, that's just what you'll get. Every other week, One Strange Thing podcast presents forgotten stories from America's newspaper archives. They all have something in common, a single element that can't quite be explained. From cryptids and curses to UFOs and modern day miracles, One Strange Thing brings you stories that are very real and just a little unworldly. Subscribe now wherever you listen.