Mo Elleithee & Sarah Isgur are obsessed with politics

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0:21Hey, everyone. Welcome to another episode of David Greene is Obsessed. I'm David Greene. And I obsess about a lot of things, as you've probably come to realize, as you've been consuming this show. The one obsession I want to talk about today, I don't know if it's a true obsession or not. I'm going to work through that today. But in another life, what feels like another life, I covered the White House for the Baltimore Sun, for NPR, which meant I covered a lot of politics. And obsession with politics is what I want to really dive into in this episode. And for me, and this might come across as sappy, especially in this day and age, but I would cover campaign events.

1:02And, you know, as things were getting going, I remember I was covering the White House and George W. Bush and his reelection campaign in 2004 and other campaigns. I would always take a moment to step outside, whether it was an airport hangar or a big gymnasium, and look at the lines of people, families, lining up for hours to just wait, go through security, come inside, still wait as they were waiting for the candidate to show up. And everyone just looked like they were earnestly there for a reason. I thought it was hope. It was because they were putting their faith in someone to change their lives to come up with policies that might make their communities better There was something so magical and it would frequently give me chills I mean, I remember the song That George W.

1:55Bush would sing about America from Brooks and Dunn that became his campaign song Whenever it would come on the radio as I was covering that campaign I would just jam out to it because it would take me right back there to that arena only in America There's something about politics that really just feels addictive. Some people call me really sappy to still have these feelings today. And you're going to meet two of the most prominent people who call me sappy for having these feelings today. Two very good friends of mine, Moa Lathie and Sarah Isger. We're going to talk about their obsessions and whether they put politics on the list because they have sure been involved in politics for a long time.

2:34We'll be right back with more David Green is Obsessed.

2:43All right, we're back with David Green is Obsessed. I want to introduce the two people who are with me in the studio. To my left, very appropriately, Mo Alethi, dear friend of mine. Mo was communications director for the Democratic National Committee. He's now the executive director at the Institute of Politics and Public Service at Georgetown University. and he is a karaoke aficionado like myself, which we're going to talk about because that's very much at the center of our relationship, I would say. And the most important part of the title you assigned me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm sorry I put that last.

3:15Sarah Isger worked in the Department of Justice under President Trump during his first term. She hosts an incredible podcast called Advisory Opinions and she is the author of a forthcoming book called The Last Branch Standing. Did I get it right? No. Just last branch standing. Yeah. No, but we were talking right before this that you were all. Oh, the the is the thing I get wrong. Yeah. So it's just last branch standing. Yeah. Okay. Stress that. The book is called Last Branch Standing. But I always say it wrong. You were always saying it right. Well, then I feel okay that I get it. If you're getting the name of your book, I mean, save words.

3:47Don't say the. Just last branch standing. That's right. Yeah. Like those restaurants that are all one word. Yeah, exactly. So you can probably tell, I mean, the three of us have kind of a rapport. We are friends and we also do. We have a great rapport. We have a fabulous rapport. We do a show very often together on public radio called Left, Right, and Center. Mo is on the left. Sarah is on the right. I guess I'm sort of in the center. I'm definitely the one who you both say has the sappiest, most kumbaya attitude towards politics. I think naive is the word. Pollyannish. Naive, Pollyannish. Why do you think that?

4:23Well, because it's fun to tease you. And look, I actually think it's beautiful. I think it's beautiful that you still see hope in a system that so many people don't. But I do think sometimes you miss the political realities, shall we say, of certain moments. And you are always shocked when we point them out. Yeah. And that is maybe the most charming part of it. Yeah, it's like you see the outer part and we're trying to tell you why someone did that. Like, for instance, the No Kings rally. I think you were like, this is a great moment. Look at all the people dressing up with their kids and like fun costumes.

5:02And I'm like, yeah, that's for turnout, to get people to turn out in the upcoming election. And you were like, what? Like, that's an example where it's not bad and you're not wrong, but a political operative sees different things. Right. Well, you are both political operatives. Were. Were. Were. Were. Okay. What does the word operative mean, would you say? Because we and I have talked about this a lot, too. I mean, it sounds I don't love it. Like, I don't know if I'd want to be called an operative. I remember in 2010 was the first time in print someone referred to me as a political operative. And I got a text message or email, I guess, at that point from a friend.

5:37It was kind of like, you're not a political operative yet. And I was so wounded that like I had puffed myself up by calling myself an operative. I'd worked on several Senate races by that point and a presidential race. But I wasn't very senior in any of those yet. And so here I was, you know, holding myself out as an operative. And it was like, you haven't earned that. It's like all the people who go on cable news with the title Democratic or Republican strategist. What's the difference? Well, it just means that like you've literally like been a field operative one time on a campaign is what it usually means.

6:10But frankly, it should mean you're actually part of the strategic decisions being made. Not everyone who works on campaigns is actually involved in the strategy. That's right. OK, so you and I met Mo when you were working for Hillary Clinton. I was covering the Hillary Clinton's campaign in 2008. This is the first presidential. Yeah, the first presidential. Were you an operative, a strategist? Like, what were you doing? Don't puff yourself up. Don't puff yourself up too much. I don't want to. So by that point, I had been working full time on political campaigns for about a decade, maybe a little bit longer at that point.

6:48You know, working on campaigns all over the country. That was my third presidential campaign at that point. Definitely reached operative. So I guess, yeah, on the hierarchy, I was operative. Let's call me a pre-strategist. How about that? Yeah, I like that. Yeah, yeah. So our relationship, I mean, I was part of the traveling press corps covering Hillary Clinton, and you were representing her, obviously, and we had like a relationship. I had to come to you and ask for access and ask, beg you to let me interview her and things like that. I mean, what do you remember about that part of the job? Did you like us?

7:26Yeah. And look, I didn't start the campaign working in that role. You know, my role was for the listeners and viewers, my role was called the traveling press secretary. I was traveled everywhere that she went, as did a group of reporters. and I was the interface between the candidate and the reporters and headquarters. And so I didn't start off that campaign. It's a really cool job, by the way, because on the one hand, it's a junior, considered a junior position. Mid-level. Yeah. Pre-strategist. Pre-strategist. It's a pre-strategist position. But you have constant access to the principal and you're traveling the country, Whereas the press secretary and the comms director sitting in an office back sitting in an office.

8:14So they may have those relationships with reporters and presumably a pretty good relationship with the principal. But you're the one there minute to minute in their ear. And so you move up very quickly and it's an incredibly cool job. I mean, we should talk about the difference between obsessed and addiction. Yeah. But it's an addictive job. It was a very cool job. I didn't start off in that role. But at a certain point in the campaign, there was a lot of tension. between the campaign and the press corps that was. And so most of the people on the press team for the campaign had very contentious relationships with the national press corps.

8:50I was like the one guy who didn't. And so we kind of shuffled the chairs. They put me on the plane. And I loved it. I loved being able to sit down and talk with you guys and answer your questions, help you see the campaign through our eyes. I got into some pretty crazy conversations and late night arguments with reporters, but many of those reporters to this day are friends of mine. I don't think we ever got into a throwdown. We never got into a throwdown. I was mad when I, like, I mean to. Well, there was one physical one, but that, we'll bring that up during the karaoke segment of the. We should get to karaoke.

9:27Yeah, almost the bar fight. Yeah. We'll make people wait for that. The almost bar fight. Yeah, the almost bar fight. Were you, I'm getting the sense that you were not doing the traveling press secretary job as much as Mo. So I start out, I think, in a much more David Green part of politics. You were sappy and Pollyannish? Like beyond. Oh, nice. And I still am. I mean, when I... I think you both are. You just act like you're not. I think that's probably true. I think that's why all three of us are friends, actually. Right, yeah. But I always told people, and still to this day, if you're going to move to D.C., you have to have something that grounds you against the cynicism.

10:01And for me, that's going to the Lincoln Memorial late at night. Not only is it beautiful late at night, but you will always see a family there like way past bedtime. Like it's wildly inappropriate for the kids to be out that late. And there won't be that many people. And it's always important for me, at least, I think about the fact that they could have spent the money to go to Disney World or Mall of America or, you know, sat in on the late night show or something like that. And instead they chose to bring their children to the nation's capital and to bring them to Lincoln's memorial and to talk to them presumably about what it means to be an American in some respect for that family.

10:40And that what a privilege it is for us to be able to be here doing that and to get to visit Mr. Lincoln whenever we want. And it's often far too little. Yeah. That's where I proposed to my wife. At the Lincoln Memorial? At the Lincoln Memorial at night. But we did not talk about what it means to be an American in that moment. You were making an American family. You didn't need to. There you go. So for me, I mean, I got started because David Foster Wallace's piece in Rolling Stone about the McCain campaign, his primary campaign against George W. Bush, was just this like eureka eye opening moment where I just thought that's what I want to do.

11:21That's what I want to be. And so to the point, like I wanted to be the press secretary on the bus. I read every book that a member of the Reagan communications team had written. I mean, Larry Speaks' book. It's called like Speaking Now or something. It's a play on his name for sure. All Too Human by George Stephanopoulos was like a bedside Bible to me for a number of years. And so I got into this almost from the more obsession side and reading what everyone else was doing and like looking up to them and watching the White House briefing. and those things. And I did my first campaign in 2002. It was John Cornyn's first run for the Senate in Texas.

12:03And this is the part of the conversation that I'm really interested in. What is the difference between an obsession and an addiction? Because from that point forward, I would say pre-campaign, it was an obsession, right? I could recite all the lines to every West Wing episode up to that point. This, by the way, is all happening as the West Wing is currently airing. I'm hearing the music and wanting to cry right now. Josh Lyman was both my hero and crush, which is a little creepy maybe. And we should say, you are a Republican and a conservative. And that was kind of a Democratic administration, West Wing, which says something kind of cool about it.

12:36But Ainsley Hayes, Republican sex kitten. You know, when Gmail first baited. I don't think she – that character would be really proud of it. Is that a title in politics? Because that's far better than pre-strategist. Republican sex kitten. What do Democrats call the equivalent? It is a line, though, from the West Wing. Everyone knows the line. Like, anyway, it's a great episode. But she's making fun of them thinking that she's just some blonde Republican sex kitten. She was one of my favorite characters in the show. And she's a lawyer. Yeah. Now she went to Georgetown Law on the show. I did not.

13:06Oh, yeah. I see why you were connecting with her. Yeah. Right? Okay. But I become really addicted to campaigns after that point. And I don't know if Mo shared this experience, but I do mean like addicted in the sense that, you know, campaign life is about 18 months and then you have about six months or so of unemployment oftentimes. you're running towards this end goal. No matter if you hate the other person on the team, you're all trying to get to the same place. And you know that on November 10th, you're never gonna have to see these people again. So why fight this out? And I think it makes for really fun work cultures, hard charging work cultures.

13:41But like when you then have been going 100 miles an hour and election day happens and it's over, that could always be a really hard time for me. And I remember I would always go look for something else. Virginia advance would be happening because it's an off cycle election. And I would try to get on the, you know, some Virginia team so I could keep working or there'd be a recount out in New Mexico. I remember it was a feeling of withdrawal. I mean, it was legit. What what is what what is the addictive intoxication? Like what what are you actually missing and feeling like you're not experiencing that when you're not on a campaign?

14:15I don't know how to explain that. I mean, it really I can't explain enough how much it's in it. It was, at least for me, a true addiction. It's the constantness of it. It's that you wake up for the first thing in the morning and you've got a purpose. And you can't get it. It's a purpose with stakes. And you can't get it all done in a single day. And so you're constantly prioritizing what's the most important thing I can get done right now. What's the thing I have to get done. There's never boredom. And the stakes feel high. And you're with other people who feel that and push towards it. I think it's probably relevant that like most of your diet is alcohol and chicken wings.

14:54So you're also not taking care of yourself very well. And that can fuel the addiction in a way because you're running on fumes. It destroys your social life. So you bond even more so with the other people on the campaign. Yeah. And I think that's part of it. Like there's something, I mean, at least in my experience covering campaigns, it's like I'm hard charging. and the feeling and the sense of mission and the stakes makes it all self-validating. I'm crazy. I'm not sleeping. I'm a lunatic. I'm eating badly. But you know what? It's all worth it because I have to do this because it's important.

15:27Like I'm covering a campaign that will decide the future of this country. And when that's suddenly gone, it's like I can't order a pizza and indulge and feel like it's worth it. Suddenly I kind of feel like a little deflated. I'm like now I'm not being validated. by the... I'm struggling with the whole premise of this because I actually don't think I'm obsessed and I don't think I was addicted to it. I think I really liked it when I did it. And I don't know. We can discuss that. Did you have the withdrawal afterwards? Did you find November's and early December's really hard? Yes, I found them really hard not because of the withdrawal but because I was worried where my next paycheck was going to come from, if I'm being totally honest.

16:04But you weren't missing it. But I liked the break. I liked the chance to decompress because I knew I was going to get it again. whatever that rush and i agree that there's a rush um and you know look this wasn't my plan i wasn't going to go work in politics i i wanted to go into government i wanted to go to the state department my goal was always to be in the u.s foreign service and get posted as a press attache to an ambassador at an embassy overseas that'd be cool that was like my my teenage dream i was the kid who, you know, even when I started in politics, I would watch the TV and watch press secretaries never say, I want to grow up to be the White House press secretary.

16:48I wanted to grow up to be the State Department spokesperson. Like that was my, that was my interest. And I failed the foreign service exam. And I promised myself I was going to keep taking it until I passed, but I needed something to do. And I'll never forget this. I took a job as a paralegal for a Wall Street law firm because I thought maybe law school will be my backup, but I need a break right after college. So let me take this job. Tower One, World Trade was where my office was. And I hated it. I hated the job. Everything about it totally turned me off to the law. And I had one particularly bad day and I went home and I turned on the TV, made myself a turkey sandwich and popped open a beer.

17:30And it was election night, 1994. And I watched the Democratic Party get decimated, including two of my, at the time, contemporary political idols, Ann Richards, governor of Texas, and Mario Cuomo, the governor of New York. And I said, well, that's what I should go do while I wait to get into the Foreign Service. I didn't really know what that was, but I eventually found my way into campaigns while preparing to take the Foreign Service. On my third try, I passed the Foreign Service exam. I had my start date set. I was going to begin training three weeks after election day on the campaign that I was working on.

18:05And the day after we won, the congressman-elect called me up and said, do you want to come to Washington and be my press secretary? And I said to myself, and at this point, I had friends who'd been through the Foreign Service, and all they did was bitch about the bureaucracy of the State Department and how they wanted to make an impact and didn't really feel like they could. And I felt like I was making an impact. So I turned the Foreign Service down and went into politics, not realizing that being press secretary to a freshman member of Congress is like the least impactful job you could possibly have in politics.

18:38But at that point, you felt it. But I felt it. And then I jumped back into campaigns. So it wasn't like my addiction, but I realized I like it. And I realized I was good at it. And I liked having the break when I like the rhythm. I like that it was hard. Everything Sarah said, hard charging, intense, surrounded. It's a mission-driven organization, and you're surrounded by everyone who believes in that mission, usually. And you have the end date. You know when this thing, you know, it's a one-day going out of business sale. That's a huge deal because you leave it all on the field. So you leave it all on the field, and then you can catch your breath.

19:16It was stressful. Or miss it. I had mine was also a cycle, but November and December were part of my chasing the high. And then by Christmas or so, I would start reinflating. I would call it where you like reach out to your old friends you haven't seen in 18 months. Start having a salad to eat. Start sleeping and reading books again. But that period is probably disorienting. Like it like I very disorienting. Literally, like, who are you disorienting for me? Um, and then Mo's right. At some point you start looking at your credit card bills and you're like, how am I paying this? You know, you save up some money, um, but they're not getting paid very much.

19:58Yeah, exactly. Do you think the job today in 2025, um, is the same? This job of operative pre-strategists, like our politics today are so, so different in many ways and angrier. And here's the part that's not the same. I loved the challenge. I actually didn't start in comms. I started in opposition research more like that. You know, in any campaign job, you're kind of wearing several hats, especially when you're junior. I mean, I was also licking envelopes. But opposition research is like the war room where you were coming up with how to take down the other side. I mean. Sure. I mean, that makes it sound very glamorous.

20:36I was going through mortgage papers looking for financial discrepancies. But hoping you'd find that one thing that showed that they were terrible. I would love going through a voting record because on many bills, no matter how you voted. There's an attack. There's an attack, right? You didn't vote for enough money for puppies or you voted against cats, right? Like either way, I can hit you. Yeah. And that was fun. And on the comm side, what I think has changed is that 20, 30 years ago, it was really about, this is what made it fun. There's the guardrails from your principal of the things they believe.

21:15Now, there's some wiggle room in there of how you're going to talk to people about it. And that's sort of where your skill set comes in. You're largely representing them. That's right. You've got these guardrails. Some are going to be wider than others, depending on the issue. And then you've also got credibility, your credibility and your principal's credibility that you're trying to worry about as well. That's gone now. you're allowed to say anything and your team will cheer you on regardless i think that's a real um it's bad for our politics but if we're just like doing sort of what i call grifter sarah where we're just talking about the nitty-gritty of like what life is like i think it's bad for the comms people because it makes their job like too easy if you don't if you can say anything and it doesn't matter, then like anyone can do that job.

22:04It's not very hard. I'll say something else that I think has changed for much for the worse and has worsened our politics. It used to feel like that you were part of a community, regardless of your party, right? Like Sarah and I met and became friends actively working against one another. You were at the DNC and you were at the Republican National Committee, right? Yeah, they're about two blocks away from each other, which people don't realize. And there's these food trucks that were in the middle. And so if you wanted lunch, you were going to have to go stand in line in the food truck. It wasn't like a Republican food truck.

22:40That's right. The food truck. And so, you know, we'd sit there in the mornings and attack each other on Twitter. And then we'd go stand in line for falafel. And we'd go get breakfast tacos and talk and meet after work, after a while of standing in line in the food trucks. And again, back then, that made me more valuable to my team, that I knew them and could talk to them. Because sometimes something would happen on your side that you'd want to back channel and say like, hey, can we lay off this for just a sec? But even bigger than that, I knew that even though I was about to put out a press release or troll her on Twitter, it was far more likely she was trolling me on Twitter.

23:25I was far less of the troll. One direction. I was testing my wings. But we could push each other and certainly put out the press releases attacking each other's bosses. But I didn't think she was a bad person. I didn't think she was evil. We just didn't see eye to eye on solutions. She was part of your community. And we were. And we were learning each other's language as well. That's right. Part of talking to Mo was getting to learn how to speak fluent Democrat. Right. And vice versa. And that's a huge value add that no longer exists and no longer is valued. From a strategic standpoint. I don't think that exists anymore.

24:04Right. You know, I came up through Virginia politics besides the national stuff I did, done seven statewide races in Virginia. My most frequent opponent that I run numerous campaigns against is Chris Lasavita. Chris Lasavita, who was the co-campaign manager for Donald Trump's second winning presidential campaign. Chris and I are buddies and we see each other at D.C. events now. And, you know, we give each other the big, you know, bro, you know, bear hug. Do the thing on the back? Yeah, the double pound. Yeah, on the back. Two pounds on the back. Yeah. Not just one or three. That's right. That's right.

24:42Because we were that close. And Democratic friends of mine, particularly younger operatives, pre-strategists, see that and they're like, what the hell are you doing? How can you do that? I have known Chris for 25 years. I became a better operative because I would wake up in the morning and say, what would Las Vidas do? Right. And I did win more races than he did in our matchups. But I also know like this is a guy who literally bled for our country. You know, Purple Heart winner in the first, you know, Gulf War. I don't like how he runs every campaign. I don't like how he ran the Trump campaign.

25:21But because we were part of that community, we got to know each other and appreciate each other. I don't think that community exists the way it used to. That's sad. I think a Republican operative who is known to be good friends with Democratic operatives and is having breakfast tacos with them now would be suspect. That's right. instead of strategic and well-connected. Other Republicans will judge you and think that you're somehow not committed to the cause. I think that's true. I think it's true from the other side, too. But you almost make it sound like the strategic value is the main value.

25:51No, except I do want people to understand that there's both. There is benefit. There's benefit. Personal and professional benefit. You can be selfish and still think that that's the right thing to do. But also the friendships are meaningful. Of course they are. Most of them. I mean, D.C. is a repeat player town, and we've forgotten that. And again, I'm phrasing this from the selfish perspective, I guess, but there's very few people I've met in D.C. who I don't run into again in some new position, be it reporter or operative. And this idea that people dismiss one another, are rude to one another, and think they're being strategic is just bizarre to me.

26:28The most insulted I have ever been in D.C. is when someone treats me like they're never going to see me again. Because that's like the ultimate insult. Like, you're not going to last in this town. I wouldn't treat someone that way because it's unlikely to be true Before we move on from politics last question craziest memory from your career as a pre-strategist operative comms person I don't even know where to begin so maybe I'll go to Sarah first because I think mine will be a good segue into the next conversation Oh, okay, okay Sarah, craziest I have a lot of memories from the Carly campaign Carly Fiorina yeah I ran Carly's campaign in 2016 and that year was 2016 on the Republican Republican primary side there were several Veep moments where you're just like what how it literally her shoes were squeaking one time and that there's a Veep episode about the shoes squeaking as she walks towards the camera did it come from the Fiorina campaign I hope not the writers okay can we just say West Wing is the aspiration Veep is much more the reality okay So in the lexicon of strategists, it's like, it was a Veep moment.

27:38Bad. It was a West Wing moment. Good. Yeah. Okay. Or real versus fantasy. Got it. Yeah. Yeah, there were just a bunch of very surreal moments, obviously. Squeaky shoes? Like, did you have to go to her and tell her to take the shoes off? I think she was complaining. And I was like, I'm not a cobbler. She was complaining to you about her squeaky heels. Not like, Sarah, why are my shoes squeaky? More like, oh, my God, Sarah, my shoes are squeaky. Because when you walk out on stage, it can be very quiet. Yeah. And people are hearing your shoes squeak. And like, what are you supposed to do? Acknowledge the squeak.

28:13It's awkward. Very awkward. The whole crowd knows that you have a squeaky shoe. It was my first female principal that I'd worked for. And so I have a lot of very fond memories and realizations. You don't realize what you're being kept out of as a woman working on a man's campaign. but like one night I remember I went back to Carly's hotel room with a bottle of Rombauer Chardonnay which was her favorite and we like you know sat in her hotel room bed in our PJs and like drank Rombauer and it's like yeah you can't do this with Mitt Romney for a lot of reasons number of reasons yeah religion he's a guy yeah a lot of reasons I love that image though Yeah.

28:59On the flip side, I remember Jeff Sessions, when he was attorney general, we were in New York, him calling me to his hotel room. I just started working for him. We had no relationship previous to me working for him. You know, you're trying to build that rapport with your principal and it's 9 p.m. or whatever. And you've all settled into your rooms. And he's like, hey, Sarah, can you come? I assume it was to talk about the speech the next day. and I walk in and he's like in shorts but still has his work socks on. So it's like, you know, like knee high, calf high socks or whatever, but shorts. No one wants that, yeah.

29:28And it's this big hotel room. Yeah, no, no, no. And the lights aren't really on. And I'm like, oh God, have I really misjudged everything about this person, this situation? Sarah, they left me cheese. I bet you like cheese. Do you want cheese? He was just being a nice guy to see if he wanted some cheese. And I was like, yes, sir. Oh, wow. And he was like, here you go. And it was basically like my reward for doing a good job versus all the other staff who did not get cheese that night. And I took my cheese. And, you know, the FBI, his security details all in the hallway. They're watching all of this because they have cameras all over.

30:03The principal in his shorts giving you cheese. Giving me cheese. And, like, again, another surreal moment where you're like, huh. But I do want the cheese. I don't think I can unsee Jeff Sessions in his dress socks and shorts handing you cheese now. I've always wanted to compile a book where it just sits down with a bunch of us, just a bunch of campaign veterans sitting around just sharing those stories. Just like all the snippets of that. Yes. What's yours you want to share? Because people do not like know. No. Like the craziness of it. The cattle call events where in the primaries, you know, you've all worked together on campaigns before.

30:35Now you're all split up onto different campaigns. before those events all of you are backstage together and it ends up being the principals sort of all chatting in a clump in the middle and then the operatives primarily in primaries all primaries yeah the the operatives are all on the outside of their principals it will feel so much like kindergarten or like a preschool play date where you're like marco don't bite chris no no no no no no share share the toys because you kind of know the flaws of your principals that you each have but you're going to know you're you're going to work together at some point again yeah and so you're kind of trying to acknowledge and be self-effacing also and gossip central probably to total gossip central whose spouse is horrible and you know where you're going to eat after and then you find out that some operatives having an affair with some other operative and like everyone's going to scuttlebutt about that there's a lot of these there was a lot of sex drugs and rock and roll on the campaigns mo what's your sex drugs and rock and roll it really falls under none of those three categories.

31:36No, I mean, there's so many I could choose from. Like, I remember the one time I was working for a statewide candidate governor's race. And it's just, you know, everything we've talked about so far has been like presidential level where you're on planes. Like when you're running for governor or Congress, like it is. So we were in a van all day crisscrossing the state and it was Labor Day weekend. And we were going from a parade where the candidate walked the whole parade. And actually, this candidate jogged the whole parade and was drenched with sweat. And then at the end of the parade, all the candidates gather on a stage and they each say a few words and he needed to change because he was drenched with sweat.

32:17And so I was tasked with standing guard at the van door while he changed his clothes. And at one point, he called out my name because he needed something. And I turned and there he was, full glory, butt naked, you know, getting changed. Who does that? That's not okay. And like we got into it. He was a candidate who I got to know very well, clearly, apparently. I was just like, what are you doing? And he's like, why are you looking? Right. You know. Right. We went on to win this campaign. Like this was a governor, you know. And I'm like, we're yelling at each other because I saw him butt naked because he didn't think to wait until he got his skivvies back on.

32:55before yelling out my name. Do you know how I knew that Hillary was going to lose to Donald Trump in 2016? That story was not about Hillary, by the way, since you just segued there. I'm really glad that we, let's just, yes, for everyone to know. I knew that was not about Hillary. Yes, so did I. Yes. I knew Hillary was going to lose in 2016 to Donald Trump because about a week before, there was this story about Brooklyn HQ, and it literally was about how the kids weren't having sex with one another. And I was like, oh my God, that's a really bad sign for a campaign. The youngest staff. Her headquarters, the staff were not having sex.

33:25should be like euphoric. And I mean that in the literal sense, not euphoric happy, euphoric, like they don't have enough oxygen in their brains and making really bad decisions. And instead that wasn't happening. And I was like, if your junior campaign staff isn't boning, you've got a real problem on your hands. Because that means they're not working hard enough to lose their minds and lose their judgment. Something's wrong. There's so many things wrong with that story, including the fact that there was a story in the New York Times about it. But. I mean, but we wouldn't have been able I want to hear Sarah describe that.

33:55So that was one story, but probably the most memorable segue, segue. I've been involved not just in one, but two karaoke bar fights on the campaign trail. You know what? I'm going to say that we use that as the break moment, so we know people will come back to hear about our two bar fights. We'll be back with more David Green as Obsessed in just a moment to hear about some karaoke bar fights.

34:25All right, we're back with more David Green is obsessed cliffhanger before we left moa lathie longtime campaign Pre-strategist operative, but also as we learned from the beginning big karaoke guy and The way that we got to know each other during Hillary Clinton's campaign in 2008 as much as I love our relationship Over kind of me trying to do interviews with then senator Clinton And it really was about singing and our mutual love of karaoke. So I still try to remember how we discovered it. But it was on one of these long trips and we were just like bone tired at the end of the day. And it's not uncommon for the campaign staff on the plane and the traveling press corps to go grab drinks at the end of the night.

35:11Because they have the expense account. We don't. That's right. So this is how they would coax us. I was really just using that. You all realize that, huh? We need you to pay for our drinks and steak. We need you to justify the payment. You can't expense it without us, but we can't eat without you. We can't expense it without you. This was a perfect relationship. I never thought about how mutually beneficial that was. You are validating everybody's hatred of the whole game right now. The two of you. So back to karaoke. We actually call this part of the show Mo Alethe is Obsessed. Sarah Isger is Obsessed.

35:41So Mo Alethe is Obsessed with karaoke. We were out one night, and I don't even know how, But we discovered a mutual love for karaoke. It might have been in New Hampshire. And what ended up happening was it was early enough in the campaign that it just became a thing. And every night, no matter what state we were in, no matter how tired we were, a lot of times we weren't even sure what state we were in because we'd flown around so many different places. She loved going to like five states in a day. I mean, that was especially, yeah. David would sort of marshal the other reporters. I would marshal the rest of the campaign stuff and we would end up at a karaoke bar.

36:21Now, it started much earlier than that for me, probably 10 years earlier when I was working on my first statewide campaign in Arizona. And my roommate, who also was working on the campaign, dragged a bunch of people out to karaoke. And I was like, karaoke, what are you talking about? And by the end of the night, they couldn't pull me off the stage. Of course. And it's not like I got a voice. Because it's an addiction. I mean, we should say it's not just obsession, it's addiction when it comes to karaoke. That was in 98. In 2002, I was working on a governor's race in Florida. I was living in Miami Beach, and there was the best karaoke bar in the world, RIP, the studio.

36:56You introduced me to that place. Amazing. Opened seven nights a week from 10 p.m. to 5 a.m. I was in there three to four nights a week, sometimes with other staff, sometimes by myself. Stop judging over there, Sarah. Not crazy to find celebrities in there. I did a duet once with Wilmer Valderrama from that 70s show. I did a duet with a guy who's the drummer for 38 Special. Right? So I was like in. I was all in. And then when you and I discovered it, we decided to go national. And I think we counted that by the end of the campaign, we had done karaoke in 38 different states. I think. Something like that.

37:37Something like that. That's the number I go with. And we still are trying to hit 50. We are. And I'm committed. But the bar brawls. Right. Right. The first one in 2000, I was working on Bill Bradley's presidential campaign as his New Hampshire press secretary. That's such a cool job. I mean, that in particular, I mean. New Hampshire press secretary? Bill Bradley's New Hampshire press secretary in 2000 is a cool job. It was a cool job. And there's so many campaigns in these early primary states. And Manchester is not a big town. No. So every campaign took a bar and adopted it as their bar. and you knew that's the Bill Bradley bar.

38:13That's the Al Gore bar. That's the Steve Forbes bar. And ours ended up being this biker karaoke bar and right across the street from the Gore headquarters. And one night we're in there and these locals, these townies came in and they were hammered and they were starting to hit on all of our young volunteers and interns and me and another guy like saw what was going on. And so we danced our way out on the dance floor and just tried to dance your way to safety. In between them, right? and those guys subtly subtly keep them away from yourself and those guys didn't like it and at the end of the night as we were walking out they were waiting and they saw me and everyone else fleed and they left you that's the part I don't love me and me and one other guy well they probably thought he was gonna run too like you you know like we're all running the four women that they were hitting on they certainly like ran well that's your job right yeah and I'm standing there luckily another friend your job as a woman is not to force your male colleagues to get into a bar fight for you.

39:10Another friend of mine came out and by the end of the night, it was four on two and I ended up in the hospital with two black eyes and a broken nose two weeks before primary day. And I'm the spokesperson. So like I couldn't do any TV. Or you could have and it would have been really cool. Somehow the story became lore, campaign lore, New Hampshire lore. And because the bar was across the street from the Gore headquarters, the story morphed into Gore operatives, jump Bradley campaign staffer. but the funnest part about that fact is one of those young women three years later I remet and I'm now married to him aren't you happy that you came to their defense wasn't that broken nose worth it you were there for the second so you should tell that story I was I mean I have very little memory but you and I were at a bar Kentucky Louisville Louisville Kentucky yeah and there was a television producer who for another network for another network I mean, we all knew him and he would he just was really annoying.

40:11The karaoke DJ, the KJ, like over and over again. And like we all saw it happening. We were like the only people in this bar. Yeah. Like he needed us there to have business. But this this producer like was mouthing off to him because he was trying. He was imposing way too many rules. Right. Let's be honest. Right. I mean, he wasn't just letting the. But I think he was imposing rules thinking that he was doing like he was just too involved. That's right. Yeah, you're going to sing this. Like, you go up there and sing this with them. That's right. And karaoke DJs don't like when someone else is running the room.

40:42You're not open that room. It is their room. That's right. So he tried to kick us out. And my memory is you, I. And he grabbed him by the throat. Yeah. And threw him against the wall. Right. And you and I jumped in there. We did. And physically separated them. And it got aggressive. And I don't want to speak for you, but I'm not exactly the heavy in most of these instances. But you present. You could be. Oh, God. That's amazing. You look tough when you're in the moment. Are you hearing this? I really appreciate that. I know. That's like the highest compliment he's ever paid you. It actually is.

41:14It might be the only compliment I've ever paid you. It's very possible. Yeah. So karaoke, yeah, it's a shared love and a shared obsession. Now, anytime I'm in L.A., I call up David and he and I find a karaoke bar. Last time, we went with Piano Man, and I had not realized the extra skill that you bring to that song. I know how to play two songs on a harmonica and Piano Man is one of them. He literally brings the harmonica and plays the opening. Just in case. Like, yeah, he just brings it to karaoke bars. Shared obsession. Okay, I know the obsession that I want you to bring up. I don't know if you're going to do it, but I want you to.

41:51She will. What is another obsession, Sarah, that Mo and I know about and love when you talk about it? So I grew up in a rural part of East Texas, and my mother was a state and federally licensed wildlife rehabilitator. and her specialty was raptors, which is hawks and owls. You know, I'm an only child, but really I don't always present as an only child because I was in many ways the extra kid because the ones who needed the attention were these animals that would come in. But I speak, you know, fluent owl. You do. Any particular owl that you speak the language of? Eastern screech owl. Eastern screech owl.

42:31You speak it because you were around this so much and you learned. Yeah. And Eastern screech owls are almost always gray, but there is a non-dominant gene where you can have some redheaded Eastern screech owls that are very cute. And for a long time, we had a breeding female redheaded screech owl in our yard as well for an owl box. It's possible that from time to time, I would go and open the owl box and say hi to them and traumatize them for life. So if you were surrounded by a bunch of Eastern screech owls right now, since you speak fluent, what would you say to them? Yeah, what would actually come out of your mouth?

43:08This is the joke, by the way, is that you guys know that I do an Eastern screech owl impression and you're just trying to goad me into... Okay, okay. So here's the thing. Eastern screech owls, you are used to hearing barred owl impressions. That's the like hoot hoot owl. Right. What would that sound like? Shut up, go. You're going to get one impression out of this. So barred owls are the more traditional hoot hoot owls. And that's like hoot hoot. Or maybe you could do it better. No. Great horned owls are a little bit different, but that same quality. I mention all this because screech owls are not the owls that you're used to hearing.

43:44So even though you are very likely to have some screech owls in your yard, if you live in the suburbs or exurbs or anywhere else. You don't even know they're owls. You probably don't know that they're owls. Okay. So that's the only reason I'm doing this is because it's a public service to tell you. People now know. You're welcome, America. This is an Eastern screech-ell.

44:06Just makes me so happy. Every time. How long did it take you to perfect that? I mean, I've been doing it my whole life, David. Right. Yeah. See, the reality is doing that impression is not her obsession. It's our obsession. Well, but it makes me like your bird interest and the fact that you do this. What does this interest say about you? So we didn't do like cruises or fun places for vacation. We did birding and animal vacations. So like we went to Venezuela when I was five. Maybe I was four, but I think I was five. And, you know, it's like I'm in the middle of the Venezuelan, you know, outback basically.

44:51and there'd be like an anaconda orgy over there. Did you say anaconda orgy? Are you not familiar with how anacondas breed, David? I'm not. I'm not actually. Well, it's a clump of anacondas and they all kind of form a... Orgy. An orgy. It's like a large knotted looking thing and they kind of squirm around for a little while and then it's done and that's how baby anacondas are made. Okay. Yeah. That's good. We just birthed a new obsession for all of us. He did. Yeah. Yeah. don't google it you won't necessarily get snakes but yeah so we were always doing birding I mean these would be like long days looking for a cock of the rock where you have to like go to a cave and like find these very elusive birds birds of paradise stuff like that and so for me I think now as an adult birds are you know like you're not looking at your phone you're not thinking about what you have to do you are focusing on this bird and thinking about what its life is like.

45:53And it's very relaxing to me. Is it also nostalgic in connection to like things you did with family? Probably all part of it. I remember during COVID, I was six months pregnant when COVID hit with our first kiddo. And I just sat on our deck and watched this one mother downy woodpecker. Downies are little woodpeckers. And I could hear her babies. I never saw them. They were too high up in the tree. and I just thought like, you know what? I think my life is hard. I think this is hard. That poor mother, because she was just having to feed them every 15 minutes, all for every waking hour, every daylight hour, that downy mother is bringing something to these very annoying chicks and they are so loud and they will not shut up until you feed them and then you've only got like two minutes of quiet.

46:39And that was, it's, it puts your life in a larger perspective. what does karaoke do for you mo and what does it say about you we talked earlier about community right like the community of of brotherhood and sisterhood of the campaign folks there's something really special about walking into a bar with a bunch of strangers you go become a regular They stop being strangers, but who are all there letting down their guards and singing, singing together. People do it for so many different reasons. It's so fascinating to just go to a karaoke bar and people watch. You see, you know, the groups that come in, the bachelorette party or the after work, you know, office crowd come in.

47:35you get the people who are sitting in the corner just kind of quiet this is their escape for a little bit from whatever the pressures are but they all come together behind this thing and you can be silly you can be goofy you can be tone deaf you can be an amazing singer you could be the worst singer in the world but everyone comes together and the magic is when you find that song that everybody right don't stop believing by journey that one oh like everybody just comes together. And for a moment, you're all like in this one thing. And this is true, whether you're in a inner city karaoke bar in Detroit or in rural West Virginia, listening to very different kind of music, singing very different kind of music, you still see the same people, right?

48:26The same groups, the same people dealing with their own thing, but still coming together. And And it's just when I was working on a campaign, it was a really hard campaign. And I would go by myself at the end of the night and I would look around and it just you see people. You see slices of America. And it's really nice. I think my obsession is literally the opposite of Moe's in a lot of ways. Like I want an escape from people. And for me, there's birds everywhere. So first of all, like no matter where you are, you can see a bird. I love watching crows probably more than anything else. I have a leader of a crow gang in my backyard.

49:01He has this little white patch on his wing, and I just love watching him and his community interact. But last night, this is absolutely true, I watched videos of woolly bears. And I don't know if you know what a woolly bear is. I'm about to learn. It is a microscopic animal. It's about 0.5 millimeters long. You can only look at it under a microscope. They live for about three months of active life, but they can be dormant for as long as 30 years potentially. And they look like little woolly bears under that microscope. They're really chubby guys and they've got these fat little legs. And again, like there are these animals everywhere that we can't even see sometimes that are living lives of purpose and meaning.

49:41And it just we can get too obsessed with ourselves and too into what our problems are, what our lives even are. And the earth is filled with wonder. And I think it's much easier to feel gratitude, whether you're at the Lincoln Memorial or at karaoke or looking at the woolly bear to realize everything outside of yourself. What a lovely note to end on. Sarah Isger, you can listen to her on the Advisory Opinions podcast. And her book is Last Branch Standing. It is coming out soon. Mo Alethi, dear friend of mine, karaoke superstar. and he is the executive director at the Institute of Politics and Public Service at Georgetown University.

50:24Most importantly, the three of us do the show Left, Right, and Center, which comes to you from KCRW and is on public radio and also a podcast. I love spending time with both of you. Thank you. Let's do a duet soon. What? I'm all in. Well, you got to first come out with us at some point and do karaoke. She can do the screech owl during the song. To a company. More cowbell. More screech owl. Thank you both. Thank you.

50:54So if you want to hear more from me, from Moa Lathie, and from Sarah Isger, we have another show that you can listen to. We're often on it together. It's called Left, Right, and Center from KCRW. The mission of the show is something really rare today in this political environment. We bring different political perspectives into the room together, and we listen to one another. We engage one another. We are curious about each other's views and perspectives. We talk through the day's political news and other issues and problems facing our society and country. It is a show about listening and engaging despite political differences.

51:32A lot of people who listen say it's the one show they want to listen to when it comes to politics each and every week. New episodes drop every Friday. You can find Left, Right and Center from KCRW wherever you get your podcasts.

51:54David Green is obsessed as a production of Campside Media. It is hosted by me, David Green. Our senior producer is Lane Rose. We are mixed by Ewan Leitramuen. The executive producers of Campside Media are Vanessa Gregoriadis, Matt Scherr, and Josh Dean. Special thanks to our operations team, Ashley Warren and Sabina Mara. If you have an obsession you would like to share, hope you do, you can send us an email. The address is obsessed at campsidemedia.com. That's obsessed at campsidemedia.com. And hey, if you enjoyed the show, please rate and review the show wherever you get your podcasts. Really appreciate you listening.