Teddy Siegel is obsessed with public restrooms

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0:21Welcome to another David Greene as Obsessed. I am David Greene, and I am wondering if you all think about bathrooms as much as I do. My wife actually tells me I have a bladder that is like a four-year-old's bladder because I constantly need to go to the restroom. I'm not going to say she's right, but I do often think about if I'm on walks or if I'm shopping or if I'm on a long drive, where's the next opportunity to use the restroom? This came into particular focus, I think, back when I was covering the White House. This was during the George W. Bush days. And I've got to tell you at that point, the bathrooms in the press area of the West Wing were really, really unfortunate.

1:05They were just off like the break and snack room. So I don't want to get too graphic or into detail, but it just wasn't the kind of place where you felt comfortable going in and using the bathroom. For many reasons, one of them being that people would know that you went in and how long you were in there. And these were colleagues who, you know, we're covering the White House with you. So I would leave the White House grounds with my security pass. And I was on the prowl for a perfect restroom for, you know, the middle of a workday. And I finally found one. It was in the basement of the Hay Adams Hotel, which is a really luxury hotel right across the street from the White House.

1:45I would go in and in the beginning, I was nervous that, you know, the door guys would start to wonder why the hell someone was coming in, every single day and not a hotel guest, but they sort of got used to it. I'd go downstairs and I would take my time. It was just a gorgeous restroom. And I always wondered though, is this okay? Like, am I doing something wrong? Am I breaking a law? Should someone be telling people that these kinds of bathrooms are available if you need them? I wish at that point that I had met my guest on the show today, who is Teddy Siegel. She is an opera singer, but she has also become obsessed with access to public bathrooms.

2:24And she's going to be with us when we come right back.

2:34All right, welcome back to David Green is Obsessed. I am David Green, and I am with Teddy Siegel, who is an opera singer whose obsession has become public restrooms. Teddy, thank you for being here to talk about this very important topic. Yeah, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Your platform that you have started is Got2GoNYC for everyone who wants to know and wants to find a restroom in New York City at any moment. But I want to start from the beginning. Where did you grow up? I grew up on Long Island. so I would come into the city a bunch as a kid and I too have a very small bladder and I remember even as a kid having like yeah no we can relate I had this like huge sense of anxiety about going into the city and like not knowing where I was going to be able to find a bathroom I remember even as like a young child like being conscious of the fact like okay we're finishing dinner and going to a Broadway show.

3:36So I know I need to go to the bathroom before we leave dinner, because who knows if I'm going to be able to find one while we're out. And it's just crazy that it's always been this unspoken truth of New York City. And I guess it just didn't really ever hit me how big of an issue it was until I moved here. And it was actually the day I got my keys to my very first apartment in New York City that I almost peed myself in Times Square. I was out shopping with my sister. We wound up running around to multiple stores, different establishments that turned me away until I was desperate enough. I ran into the McDonald's in Times Square begging to use the restroom and of course was told you need to buy something if you want access to our bathroom.

4:23So I quickly bought a water bottle that I didn't need. I've bought so many water bottles that I don't need in order to use a restroom like in a fast food restaurant or coffee or so many things which makes the problem worse we should say but yeah exactly like then you're like especially if you're buying coffee a literal diuretic anyways though I thankfully made it in time but afterwards I was just like filled with so much confusion about like why did that just happen to me and also like now that I'm going to be living here I feel like I should just start keeping track of bathrooms because like clearly this is useful information and I just thought to myself Like maybe if I make this information public, it could help one other person.

5:02And like, that would be pretty cool. And so I just took a video of the outside of the McDonald's, posted it on TikTok. And overnight it got around like 10 ,000 views, which at the time for me, I was like, whoa, like this is crazy. Like just a video selling people like, hey, like this is a place you can pee for free in New York City. I think that's what I wrote on it. Pee for free. Like you discovered that you didn't really have to buy that water. Exactly. Yeah. When I got up to the bathroom, I saw there wasn't even a code on the door. And so for people that are unfamiliar with bathroom codes, it's like a little pin pad above the knob of the door.

5:38Didn't need to have that. You could just walk right in. Yeah. And so I just wish that there was some place where I could have found that information that showed me like, this is like the McDonald's you can go to in Times Square. If you need to go to the bathroom, just go up to the second floor. Don't ask any questions. There's no code. Or if there is a code, I started like putting the codes on different videos. Oh, you would put businesses codes on. Is that do businesses get mad? Like I just I think about maybe them not wanting to have the public using their restrooms. Which is so fair. I've had a couple of businesses reach out to me saying like, hey, well, now I've created a bathroom app.

6:16So like by the end of that summer, this was July 2021 when I made my account. By the end of the summer, I was receiving hundreds of submissions. And so I thought like there has to be a better way to publicly catalog all of this data rather than like, I'm just one person. Like I physically cannot make like all of these videos showing people like the different bathrooms. Right. You have a full-time job too. Yeah, exactly. And I was in grad school at the time for opera that I was like building. That's why I moved to New York City. I was going to grad school at Maness School of Music at the new school.

6:47and so I just was like yeah exactly like I had all of these classes rehearsals like I physically cannot take the time to make like all of these videos and so I figured out that Google Maps has a feature where you're able to make shared maps and so they can be crowdsourced and so these are like the maps that friends will make and say like here are my 20 favorite restaurants exactly in Barcelona or whatever and so that's what Google Maps originally intended these shared maps to be. And mine has now grown to be thousands of locations across New York City and now around the world. It's really just built itself.

7:25And it's now Google's largest and most frequently used map in the world. Okay. And I read that too. Yeah, that is crazy. I just want to undermine that. What does that tell us about the need and desperation that people have if your bathroom access map has become the most popular map ever in the world on Google's platform. It really just underscores how big of an issue this is in New York City. And circling back to your question, if businesses get mad at me or ask me to remove their location from the map now, rather than I don't really take the time now. Sometimes I'll put out a thread that's like, if someone DMs me like, hey, this is the bathroom code for the Chipotle in Union Square today, I'll like just put it out just kind of like highlighting this issue.

8:17Like why do we feel the need to like have to share this information? But I ultimately do believe that it is the city's responsibility to be providing restrooms for us. They're a vital part of any functioning public realm. Just as we need sidewalks to be able to go about our daily lives in this city, we also need public restrooms. I kind of post it just to like it's clickbaity. It gets attention, but I do respect businesses that private establishments that don't want their bathroom codes on the map, or they don't want their bathrooms being advertised as publicly accessible. And so I always just respond to them like, I have removed it for you, not a problem.

9:00And just so you're aware, if this happens again, the map is fully crowdsourced and accessible by anyone. So you too can go in and remove your location. just because someone else added it, anyone else can remove it. But so back to building this, like you just, you were in that McDonald's that day, you used the restroom, you posted this video, you got 10 ,000 people, you start building this map. I mean, what has the reaction been in these last few years? I mean, it feels like you've really tapped into something that no one had tapped into before. Yeah, it's been overwhelmingly positive. You started a movement, which I know is a pun that you love to use.

9:38You have definitely started a movement on bathroom access. Yeah. Thank you. Well, I feel like the reaction's been overwhelmingly positive, especially from people that have different medical conditions where they desperately need restroom access more than others. But also just people like us that need to go. They live in New York City or traveling to New York City and don't want a huge part of their day to be searching for a bathroom. Like that is truly crazy when you say it out loud. And I think it was always just this thing that was like not really talked about, especially because like if you have a horrible experience, there is so much shame and stigma associated with restroom access.

10:23And like people aren't just going to like walk into work and talk to their coworkers like, oh my gosh, I almost like had an accident during my morning commute. Like that's not really socially acceptable. And so I think just like normalizing it and allowing people to kind of get comfortable being a little bit uncomfortable through my social media as well, which I like treating my bathroom review videos like they're like restaurant reviews and being like, oh, so like how was the toilet paper? how was like the cleanliness and like making it funny and making it entertaining I think really also helps people just get comfortable with it and like get comfortable talking about it and people like will come up to me on the streets and be like I love your account so much and like either they know my name or they like point at me and they're like bathroom girl which I love are you okay with bathroom girl being your nickname yeah I think it's funny um there was one video that you posted I think it was a young woman who told you that she had bought an equinox membership just to know that she would have a bathroom at an equinox within like nine or ten blocks like just a sense of security I mean that's extraordinary it is and she's not alone multiple people commented on it being like I've done the same thing or like that's why I have my gym membership or some people told me like they have amc I think it's like the A-list memberships just to be able to like go in whenever they like need to go into an AMC.

11:52Oh, the movie theater. Okay. Yeah. The movie theater. Oh, that's a good pro tip. So if you get the membership at AMC, you can just go into a theater whenever you want and use their bathroom. Apparently I don't do that, but yeah, like Equinox, people go to extreme measures to be able to like have secure restroom access. I think that you talked about, um, a real, uh, transitional moment when this went from being sort of a fun hobby to realizing that there were much deeper issues that you were tapping into here because some of the reactions you were getting from people? What happened in that moment?

12:29What were you reading? One of the first comments that really made me take a step back was, thank you so much. I used your account when I was homeless. And then shortly after that, I saw another comment from a man that said something along the lines of, I'm a big black guy that does deliveries at night, and I don't even bother trying to find a bathroom at this point. And both of those really made me take a step back and think about just my position as a cis white woman, and that my experience in life is not representative of the majority of the people who work in and live in New York City, and that I am able to go into most hotel lobbies and use their bathroom without being questioned.

13:15And I've now heard from so many people that like, that is not their experience. And if they even step foot in a hotel where they don't appear like they would be a guest, they're immediately questioned and told to leave. And so it really just made me realize like, this is so much more than just bathroom access and like my silly little videos, like what I thought I was doing, like just making my silly little bathroom reviews. It really is so much more than that. And I just felt like it was my responsibility to use my privilege to amplify these issues and ultimately like do something, anything. I didn't even know if I could do anything within my power, but I was like, I might as well just get the ball rolling and start talking about it.

13:58And shortly after that, Manhattan Borough President Mark Levine's team reached out to me asking if I would want to speak on the steps of City Hall in support of a bathroom bill that they were introducing aiming at increasing bathroom accessibility and maintenance throughout New York City. And so that really just made me be like, whoa, like I am just like an opera singer. Like I did not ever think that I would be involved with any sort of like political realm stuff at all like that. I have two degrees in opera. I, it was not, that's not something that I ever thought would be on my bingo card, but I've now helped with the introduction campaign and passing of four bathroom bills, which all aim at increasing bathroom accessibility and maintenance throughout New York city.

14:48Congratulations. I mean, that must feel, that must feel really impactful. Yeah, it does. And I think it just is a really good reminder that like you don't need to have a degree in something in order to make a difference. Like I'm just an opera singer with an iPhone and I was able to do all this. So yeah. Well, I mean, it's interesting too, because I feel like it takes an openness. Um, and that's one of the many things I think, you know, we're trying to explore when it comes to certain obsessions. Um, I mean, this, this just came out of nowhere. It sounds like for you and became something that you fixated on but then stayed with it and then were open to seeing where it went and it took you into completely unexpected places that you seem to be like really embracing now yeah i think it just also is like being a creative person i feel like part of the training is to be open and constantly like searching for different sparks and like allowing that to kind of drive the direction you're going in rather than trying to like manufacture something, I guess.

15:50Oh, that's interesting because you are a creative as an opera singer. So you see some overlap between these two things, which I didn't see on its face. Yeah. A lot of people don't, especially in your bathrooms and opera. It sounds like they couldn't be more polar opposite. But I feel like there have been like just my background as a creative person has really informed the way I've built this mission. What is it about New York City? Because I think one of the things that you've learned along the way, it sounds like, is that New York has a particular problem with this in terms of per capita bathroom access.

16:23Yeah, especially considering it's like our tagline is like the greatest city in the world. And it's like one of the worst cities in the country for bathroom access. And you want tourists to come and have a good impression of the United States and New York is often the place where they land. No, exactly. It really, there are so many reasons that led to this issue. and I don't have the history at the top of my head. I do know that in the 70s, a lot of public restrooms were shuttered due to like rising rates of crime, I believe. And then it just never really came back from there. And there was a huge street furniture deal in the early 2000s where there were multiple self-cleaning toilets that were a part of this deal.

17:11I believe 20 and only five were ever installed and the rest have been sitting in a warehouse in Queens ever since and I just know that there have been efforts made to like along with that street furniture deal to fix this issue but it all has just like floundered in red tape or like no progress has really been made especially considering like the price of building one park bathroom can be millions of dollars just for one one park bathroom can be millions of dollars yeah bathrooms are really expensive because their infrastructure and like people don't realize like it is so much more than just like a sink in a few stalls like that go into the building and maintenance of a restroom so i'm not an expert on that but i do know that number yeah it's crazy well i think too you you've um you you did a deep dive in history and you really charted a lot of not just in the united States, but around the world, like we can learn a lot about civil rights, human rights, discrimination, racism when it comes to bathroom access, which I never even had thought about.

18:21What are some of the things that really stood out to you? Well, I think just like looking back through history, just seeing how bathrooms from like the segregation movement to people discriminating and being transphobic now. Like how bathrooms have been weaponized as a way to keep people out of certain spaces. And even like, I believe it wasn't until 2011 that the House of Representatives installed its first women's restroom. And so In the U.S. Capitol, 2011? Mm-hmm. That's incredible. And so it's crazy when you look at, like, these facts. They're not opinions. They're facts. That, like, restrooms have been weaponized as a way to exclude people and ultimately as, like, a way to try and just erase people altogether from certain spaces and just in general.

19:19what's the um what's the craziest story you've come across like in some of these videos that you've made and some of the people you've talked to um who've you know really been been taken by your whole mission crazy like how like funny or like funny sure terrible either one you pick um well I feel like I've definitely had a lot of people tell me some like funny ones or like when they're like running around like after or like during a date like running around like and like trying to find a bathroom without like letting the other person know like what's going on sort of thing um there have also been some really like terrible ones where like I've had pregnant women write into me telling me that like a Starbucks turned them away and they like peed themselves on the street and like really awful and I think it just really like Like, it's terrible.

20:13And also like people like during their morning commute having to like run out of the subway and like poop between two parked cars because there are no bathrooms available. Oh, God, that's terrible. It is terrible. Yeah. But it brings to mind something you've said like that we should get comfortable being uncomfortable. Like, why do you think it's important to lean into places and conversations where there can be stigma and shame? I just think it's really important to try and use whatever power we can to break down those stigmas because it's something that we all do. So, like, why is it so embarrassing?

20:56It is quite literally one of the most unifying parts of the human experience. that like everybody's got to go. It's like the book, Everybody Poops. And like it shouldn't be something that's embarrassing or even like that big of a deal. And I think once we got comfortable talking about the little things, it makes talking about the big things a lot easier. And I think it will also help with just more progress getting made if we allow ourselves to like sit with the discomfort and be like, this is okay. And it's normal. and it's something that everyone does and it's okay to talk about. What have you learned about the issue of homelessness and kind of people who are unhoused, their bathroom needs, any lessons that we should take from what you've learned in terms of how much we fight for that kind of availability, how we should hold back on judgment, any observations or lessons?

21:56I think definitely holding back on judgment and humanizing them and realizing like they are people who deserve to use the restroom just as much as you or I or any other person. I don't believe restroom access is a privilege at all. It should not be a privilege. It should be a basic human right that every single person on this planet has access to a safe, clean and accessible restroom. And it is really horrible. And like the stories I have heard from people who were homeless and turned away from a restroom just based on their appearance or the fact that they smelled or were wearing dirty clothes.

22:41And I spoke with this woman who told me that her and her husband had been on the streets for about two weeks and they were turned away from a cafe restroom even after they offered to buy something with the limited funds that they had. Even after they offered to buy something? Yeah, because they just didn't want them there at all. And I think that's like so horrible. Yeah, that's really sad. Yeah. How important was it to find this sense of purpose and mission for you to keep going down this road? You're an opera singer. You got into bathrooms in kind of a humorous way. Do you think you'd still be making these videos and making this content and managing this platform if you hadn't really learned about the deeper stuff here?

23:29I don't think so at all. I feel like it's something that like I would have been fixated on for a little bit, like as I was in the beginning and then maybe like moved on to something else. But I feel like just having this like deeply human part of it keeps me so connected to it and really keeps me connected to the community that I've built. I now have over half a million followers across my platforms. Wow. And I think just like really feeling like there is such a strong sense of community between me and the people that follow Got2Go. And like that's also why I love when people come up to me and are like bathroom girl.

24:03Because like I feel like it does help to know that like we are a part of something bigger. and that it just is a good reminder for myself too that like if you have like a good purpose and if you're like committed to something like there really is no telling what you can do and that all it takes is one person with a TikTok account to like make a difference. It does feel that way. I do feel like that's the lesson. I mean, just try things. You have a tool, you have a TikTok platform and see what sticks and see what kind of resonates with people and fills a need out there. Yeah. So how do you balance your opera career with this mission?

24:50Well, I feel like it was definitely the most difficult during grad school because I was like super busy with my classes and rehearsals for operas that I was in. But now that I am fully self-employed, I'm in control of my whole schedule. So that definitely helps a lot. I am also a writer. I have a column in Classical Singer Magazine and I do different freelance work, whether it's social media strategy, consulting, like anything. People will reach out to me and be like, can you do this? And like, if I feel qualified to do it, I will do it. So I feel like it definitely helps now that I have the time to like build my whole schedule and figure out my priorities.

25:32I definitely still include got to go in that list, even if it has like shifted a little bit now. And what's what's your goal for a got to go in the next 510 15 years? Like, what do you hope the legacy of this will be? I just hope it will continue to be something that makes people feel like they're a part of something makes people laugh makes people entertained and helps people. Yeah, I think it sends a bigger message. I mean, you made a really good point about finding the things that we all share and can relate to as kind of a unifying tool to then you know take on bigger things together it's funny I've thought a lot about you know sports in that way I've thought about music in that way your career but you know there really can be other things too like this is just a very human experience that we can all relate to and like actually talking about it laughing about it being committed to it together is really a chance to come together in a community and not feel so divided, which is really, there's something really powerful about that.

26:33Yeah, no, that is so true. So you grew up, as I've read, not obsessed with opera, but obsessed with music and particularly the sound of music. Is that, was that an early favorite of yours? Yeah, and it still is. That's my favorite movie of all time. But that was my absolute favorite growing up. And I feel like was definitely one of the catalysts that led me to starting voice lessons and studying musical theater. And then I had a voice teacher who told me, like, if you really want to take voice seriously, you should get classical training. And then that's what led me ultimately to being really just obsessed with opera and like the world of opera.

27:15And I did a program in early high school in Italy where I was like fully just immersed with like the music, like operatic music, Italian food, the Italian language. And like I was like, OK, I'm sold. You're totally in. Yeah. I love traveling. I love food. Love music. And I feel like opera has really allowed me to explore all of my favorite things. How does an opera obsession differ from like a country music obsession or a rap obsession or a, you know, classical orchestra obsession? Like what makes it more, what makes it unique? I think something that makes it unique is that there are no microphones.

28:00So when you're hearing an opera singer sing on stage, it is just you and your body, which is truly a feat. And I think that you have to truly become like a vocal athlete to be able to have the stamina to sing an entire opera without any sort of assistance. And that is fully like why my voice teacher at the time told me to study classical music. Because if you can train your voice to do that, then singing other things becomes a lot easier. So I think that's the biggest difference. Okay, I'm going to expose myself as like a total opera naivete. Oh no, you're fine. I come and watch you like in a large concert hall.

28:39There is no amplification. There is no microphone on you. There is nothing like a core part of opera is that you are just – it's just your voice filling the hall. Yeah. I mean there certainly are exceptions if you're doing like a concert version of something. But if you are seeing like a just opera in an opera house, there is typically no microphones. That's amazing. And so you have to project over an entire orchestra as well. So it's not just filling the hall. It's like carrying over all of these instruments. Yeah. And I actually saw you posted something recently about overcoming the fear when you don't feel like your voice is in good shape before a certain performance and kind of having to just fight through that.

29:26I mean, how hard is that? Especially now that I know there's no amplification, like having a gravelly voice on a given morning could feel very stressful. Very stressful. And I think it just puts you in this like vulnerable position where it's like, well, it's just me and my voice and like, we'll see what comes out. But I think it really teaches you to trust your technique and trust your body and know that like whatever happens is what's going to happen. And like you can't control any more than that. So it definitely there is a huge mental aspect as well. I wish I knew you when I was hosting a public radio show every morning because I would be terrified if my voice felt off, especially if I was sick and I was like freaked out that people were going to hear the nasally sound of it.

30:17And I would always tell myself, like, just be confident, like, just go in, you're going to be fine. And then this one listener wrote in and said that she had been studying public radio voices and I was the most often on public radio to sound sick. And I was devastated because I was like, no, the whole message is like, just go in. No one's going to care. You're probably worrying about it more than anyone else. Yeah. That's such a funny thing to study. Right? She like did like a thesis on it or something. I mean, she was studying like the frequency of public radio hosting. No, she needs a different hobby.

30:51That's like too much. She definitely needs a different hobby. Okay. We're going to take a quick break. And Teddy, we're going to come back in just a moment. And I've got a little flash round asking about some of your other obsessions. We'll be right back.

31:10We're back with more David Green is Obsessed. My guest is opera singer Teddy Siegel. And now we're going to go into the phase that I like to call Teddy Siegel is Obsessed. You're an opera singer. tell me about a song or a performance or a show that you constantly obsess about that you can't get out of your mind that's a good question one that I've been in or seen either one one that you want to do um I would love to be in La Boheme that's my favorite opera if you aren't familiar with it if you know the musical rent they're based on like the same story ish so i love puccini love puccini operas and i also love that it takes place like there's a part of it during the winter time love the winter and they have snow on stage yeah i'm a winter freak too it's my favorite season and people think i'm crazy yeah especially new york oh yeah fall winter is great um okay you said that you love italian food um what what meal do you obsess about or what food item do you obsess about most um i love baked ziti baked ziti and chicken parm oh yeah oh now you're talking baked ziti like literally smothered in cheese yeah love cheese just any italian dish that's smothered in cheese i'll eat it and love it yeah i'm married to a half sicilian um wife who when she makes pasta sauce i just i literally grab the cheese and literally put as much on it as possible probably offending every every person in her family by covering up the true flavors with too much cheese um you can never have too much you can never have too much cheese no uh okay what is an obsession that you have never told anyone about until right now um like current or in the past either one um in the past i was obsessed when i was like a small child never told anyone this.

33:10I was obsessed with the thought of finding a geode and I would sit in my backyard and smash rocks hoping I'd find one. Find a geode? Yeah. You know, like they're like the gems inside of rocks. I really wanted to find it. Have you seen like the purple gems that like, it looks like just a boring rock on the outside and you open it up and there's like a crystal inside or something. I still am. That's one of my dreams in life is to go to Brazil because they have these caves where you can find geodes. So it still is a current obsession. I love the gem room at the Natural History Museum. Spend lots of time there, me and my boyfriend.

33:45We love them. I love this. And he's an opera singer too, right? He is, yeah. And we perform together as well. So we're hoping that we're going to go to Brazil one day and find geodes and sing. Find geodes. What is it, how does it work to be in a relationship with someone that you also perform on stage with? I think it like it really takes a very specific sort of relationship and person and I think that it makes everything so much better and so much easier and like you just have this trust with this other person that like if like during that concert when my voice wasn't feeling well like we had a couple duets we were performing together it was this past summer we were performing in a castle in a town outside of Budapest in Hungary.

34:34And so like, we've traveled all this way for this concert. And I was like, I have to sing, like, I can't not go on. And so I pushed through it. And it was just so comforting to be able to have someone where like, I could just like look at him and like, he knew exactly, like, you can just like speak to each other, like through your mind and through just like the smallest, like facial expression. And like, he just knew like, okay, like we're cutting off the note now because like I can't continue because I want to save my voice for like a different part of the song or something. And also just being able to like travel together and sing together.

35:09And yeah, it is so special. I love that. Are you able when you're traveling like crazy to shut down the sort of looking for where there might be bathrooms? Like, can you turn that side of you off when you're just on a music tour? No, I'm not great at it. The obsession runs so deep. I have so many videos and pictures of bathrooms in Budapest that I have yet to post. No one has seen them except me. But everywhere I go, I'm like, oh, I love this. I love this. And then I take too many. I get overwhelmed. I'm like, I'll deal with that. Another point. Amazing. Teddy Siegel, she's an opera singer. She also runs the platform and social media account Got2GoNYC.

35:52Teddy, real pleasure. Thanks so much. I really appreciate it. Yeah, thank you for having me.

36:02David Green is obsessed as a production of Campside Media. It is hosted by me, David Green. Our senior producer is Lane Rose. We are mixed by Ewan Leitrimuen. The executive producers of Campside Media are Vanessa Gregoriadis, Matt Scherr, and Josh Dean. Special thanks to our operations team, Ashley Warren and Sabina Mara. If you have an obsession you would like to share, hope you do, you can send us an email. The address is obsessed at campsidemedia.com. That's obsessed at campsidemedia.com. And hey, if you enjoyed the show, please rate and review the show wherever you get your podcasts. Really appreciate you listening.

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