Erika Kirk on Why She Forgave Her Husband’s Killer

0:00This episode was recorded at the 2025 Dealbook Summit. This year's DealBook Summit sponsors include Premier Sponsor Accenture, Associate Sponsors U.S. Bank, Vanguard, Invesco QQQ, and University of Michigan, Supporting Sponsor Capital One, and Contributing Sponsor Invest Puerto Rico.

0:26We can agree on how to disagree, and that's not by murdering someone because you don't believe what they believe. And Charlie was the perfect example of, let's have a conversation. This is Andrew Ross Sorkin with The New York Times, and you're listening to interviews from our annual Dealbook Summit, recorded on December 3rd in New York City.

0:58Good evening, everybody. Erica, thank you so much for joining us. Erica is our final speaker today, and we are going to have an emotional conversation. We do have Kleenex, not for her, but for me. Charlie Kirk was one of the most influential people of the last decade in the Republican Party, he galvanized young men around the country that were vastly underappreciated by the media in the 2024 election. At age 18, Charlie founded Turning Point USA, grew the organization to more than 4 ,000 chapters across high schools and college campuses, mobilizing the conservative movement through debate across the country at events and on social media.

1:39And Charlie Kirk was supposed to be here today. he was supposed to be part of a task force that we had been talking about for quite some time. And Charlie, as you all know, was murdered on September 10th. His widow is here, Erica Kirk, and she has stepped in to take over as CEO of Turning Point. And she has very big plans for what it is going to be. And I just want to say it is such a privilege to have her on this stage with us today. So thank you.

2:11You know, just a little bit of background for the room. I had met Charlie about a year ago, and for about a year we texted and we emailed about a lot of things. And you know this. I do. And we disagreed about a lot of things. Yes, we did. But we had the most respectful conversations that you could imagine about so many different topics. And we happened to text the weekend before he was killed. And I remember the day he was killed, like it was yesterday, like you did. And I was devastated. You were devastated. I think so many parts of this country were devastated. and I've been thinking a lot about the role that he played for a certain group of people in this country, a role about how to interact about different topics.

3:10And there's a lot of controversial things that he said and did. But I wanted to talk to you about all of this and about how in many ways we can potentially even consider bringing the country together, if you can imagine that. And I sat and watched the funeral by video, and I watched you. And I sat in awe, to be honest with you, as I think lots of the nation did, when you forgave the assassin. And you said, I forgive him. The answer to hate is not hate. And it was at that moment I said to myself, I need to talk to Erica. I need to understand that. I need to understand what you've just gone through and what led you to be able to say that aloud.

4:06And so that's where I wanted to start before I say, how are you? Thank you. Well, first, thank you for having me here. Thank you, all of you, for being here. my husband adored you and it wasn't it was such a beautifully unconventional friendship in a way where he was outside the echo chamber of his realm because he genuinely appreciated you as an individual and how you internalize things and how you were able to articulate them to Charlie for that moment, for him to then be able to think about certain things a little differently, but prepare him also for those campus visits so that he could take a moment to say, you know what?

5:06Okay, so this is what they're talking about. This is what they're thinking about, let's dive a little deeper here, but he deeply appreciated the fact that you are a space for him to be like, what are your thoughts on this? I know we don't agree on this, but let's, and, but that's what's so beautiful about this country. And that's what was so beautiful about your guys's friendship was that that is what this country should always be about. You should, you know, like, and I'm sure some of you remember the days where you could have a Democrat and a Republican metaphorically duking it out on the floor, but then say, let's go get lunch afterwards.

5:42I mean, could you imagine if AOC and Nancy Mace were like, let's go get Subway after having a dialogue, you know, a heated debate. But we even saw that, you know, that minor olive branch that with Mom Donnie and Trump, there's something really special about the inner workings of an American. And that friendship that you and Charlie had was one of those points. And so at the funeral, for me, you could go any direction in that moment. I wasn't up there for anyone else but for the Lord and my husband. Those were the two people in my quote-unquote audience. And yes, Charlie would have forgiven. It's not because you're weak.

6:31It's not because you think what the assassin did was correct. That's the exact opposite. It's forgiveness is,

6:43for those of you who have been wrong, do you know what it feels like to forgive someone? And in a way where it frees you from a poison and it frees you to be able to think clearly and have a moment where your heart is free and you're not bound to evil and you're not thinking emotionally, you're thinking logically because you're free. You're truly, truly free. So can I ask you a question? Yes. How did you get to that point? That's the Lord. That's my faith. And I don't expect everyone to understand that. Forgiveness and your faith and your own personal walk of life, that's everyone's own journey.

7:22That's not something that you just wake up overnight. And I imagine you have to be full of rage and emotion. Of course. That was the love of my life. Of course. Of course. And so when this happens and you're thinking about, did you write that speech? I did. I write all of my speech. You wrote it all down. Yes. But that part I specifically left open. If you look at my speech notes, that part I prayed on so heavily beforehand, and that was a game time, exact second to second moment. That was not something pre-planned. That was not. Because I'm not going to say something I don't truly believe, and when I prayed on it, I knew that the Lord would really press it on my heart.

8:07And if I was meant to say it because I truly meant it and believed it, then I was going to say it. But I was not going to pre-plan that. We're not going to get into politics yet, But I do ask a political question and maybe it'll be considered political because right after you said you said that the president spoke, as you know, and he said that this is where I disagreed with Charlie. He said he did not hate his opponents. He wanted the best for them. And that's where I disagreed with Charlie. I hate my opponent and I don't want the best for them. And that's why I say we'll get into politics in a moment.

8:45But in that moment, what did you think? Well, there's a difference between the government is meant to play out justice. So that's how I interpret that from a justice standpoint. But to me, ultimately, it's the Lord and the Lord that serves ultimate justice. Again, I am not going to critique anyone's personal journey of their faith. That is something that is so private and personal with the Lord or, you know, whatever religion that you believe. But to me, it's one of those things where you can't, you have to just, let me put it this way. Put your fist out for a second. When I do this, what are you doing?

9:37You're pushing back. Now, when I do this, don't push back. I can now hold peace with you. When you are in constant combative mode, you don't leave a bridge point for some form of peace. Charlie was so good at being a peacemaker. I know some might not agree, but you can see now in technicolor with him not being here, how much he was a bridge. And now that there's that void, you really see it in full display. Okay, so I want to ask you about that, actually, because I saw the peacemaker side of him in the kinds of dialogue that we had. But I was also very cognizant of the disruptor side of him insofar as one of the ways that I think he succeeded, actually, in creating so much interest in what he was doing was debating with people.

10:46Right. And doing it on social media and doing it at campuses where people really engaged with it. But that required not necessarily being the peacemaker. And so I'm curious how you think about those two sides, if you know what I mean. No, I do. I do. And the interesting thing is, is that a lot of the things my husband said or did was taken out of context. But when you watch his full length commentary and debate and civil discourse back to back on campus, he not only engaged with the students, but he would put the microphone down and he would say a few things. First, if you disagree with me, come to the front of the line.

11:30Second, when he put that microphone down, it was out of respect for the person who was speaking. And if someone was heckling or saying anything in the crowd, there is video proof of this. He would say, please have some respect. I know you don't agree with them. That's OK. But we're here to have dialogue. In our country, now more than ever, we are facing the most lack of communication we've ever had. And Charlie was a peacemaker for that. Because he knew that the only way to have true discourse and dialogue was to do just that. You can't silence people, even though people think that that's how you do.

12:22You don't have to agree on everything. I'm sure a lot of you in this room don't agree with several points that I agree with. But maybe we agree on 5%, and that's better than zero. That's a starting point. But Charlie knew that. and Charlie would give the opportunity for people to be able to dig in a little bit deeper and have food for thought of, you know what, I see where you're coming from, but have you thought of this? Charlie didn't attack people. He went after ideas and he wouldn't tell people what to say. He would encourage them how to think and that's what was so powerful about his on-campus dialogues because he didn't have, yes, he had protesters there.

13:06It's because, unfortunately, the truth can be offensive. It's the truth. But he wanted to make sure that everyone had a chance to have a form of dialogue and discourse. And I know, again, we don't agree on a lot of things, but we can agree on how to disagree. And that's not by murdering someone because you don't believe believe what they believe, murdering someone because you don't, you don't believe in what they have to say. And Charlie was the perfect example of, let's have a conversation. And so he started that conversation, and that's why with Turning Point USA and our whole team, we are going to keep that conversation going and that dialogue going because it's so important.

14:01If you really want to heal this country, And I know that, Andrew, you feel the same way. To heal this country, you're going to have to do it by talking to each other. You can't keep canceling one another, thinking that that's going to resolve everything. And that's what's so beautiful about the First Amendment, too, is that you have the gift of communication. We're speaking beings. And we need to get back to that as a country. I want to read you something that Ezra Klein wrote, op-ed in the New York Times. This was following Charlie's murder. said, you can dislike much, much of what Kirk believed, and the following statement is still true.

14:39Kirk was practicing politics exactly the right way. He was showing up to campuses and talking with anyone who would talk to him. He was one of the era's most effective practitioners of persuasion. When the left thought its hold on the hearts and minds of college students was nearly absolute, Kirk showed up again and again to break it. A taste for disagreement is a virtue in a democracy. My question to you, and I actually remember talking to him about this, was the idea of what debate is. How open was he or all of us really to debate? Meaning, we would have discussions back and forth about lots of things, and he would say I was wrong, and I would say he was wrong,

15:27How often do you think in the context of a debate, he would change his mind? Oh, he would say it. He would say, you know, I haven't thought about that. Or, you know what, I need to look into that. He would say it. He would say it. And to him, debate wasn't about emotion. I mean, everyone has an opinion. Debate to him was facts. It was, okay, I understand you feel this way, but why do you feel that way? That was the form. And the art of true debate is not there as much as it used to be. And that's why I think it's so powerful to make sure we even bring that back on college campuses. Charlie once said that he's a moderate compared to you.

16:12What does that mean? him and I believe and we both had very similar viewpoints on everything I think it just boils down to when we got married he was a little libertarian on on some on points forgive me if I don't have them off the top of my head but when we got married I saw within him become more he was always conservative but more conservative because when you become a father and when you become a parent, you're realizing that you're living for someone in something so much bigger than yourself. You're living for your family's legacy. You're living for your kids. You're living for your future grandchildren.

16:49He became more conservative, as did I once getting married, because you want a country that's for your children, that they're not renters of everything. They actually own property. They own land. They're invested in this country. They're proud to be a citizen. They're proud of what they've built and what their family has built. And so hand in hand, him and I both were able to see that on full display. And that's why he would tell so many young people, get married and have children. And it wasn't because he was trying to be misogynistic or anything from that nature. He was saying it because he loved being married and he loved our babies.

17:31and he wanted other people to feel what that was like, to be able to know what it's like when you come home and your wife is excited to see you. And, you know, you guys have that beautiful symphony of a relationship where it's not one versus the other. And it's literally a supportive, beautiful covenant of what true family is. And Charlie loved that. He loved it. I got a question for you on that topic. which is I work with a number of fabulous female reporters. And we were talking about this interview coming up. Okay. And they said, they wanted me to ask you this, actually, because you've urged, as he has, women not to delay building families.

18:17I beg your pardon? You have urged women not to delay having families. And you've talked about serving your husband. Mm-hmm. Well, he served me also. He would ask, how can I serve you? We would ask it to each other. And a number of them said, ask her, please ask her how you think about your career, and now that you're going to be taking over Turning Point, and balancing family, and what your view is of that. No, it's a great question. It's actually a very thoughtful question. I grew up with a mother who is an entrepreneur. It was her and I. My parents got divorced when I was very young, when I was five.

19:00And I saw that as a blueprint. So that does not scare me, being a single mom, if you will, now, and running a company. There really is no such thing as balance. There's always going to be a give and take. But what this grieving process has taught me is that there is really no blueprint of what I'm going through. It's really a one-of-one type of situation.

19:27And it's interesting because I, when you view how pain can be morphed into a form of purpose that you see will outlive you, again, it puts into perspective that this isn't about me. This isn't about my life. This is about the legacy my husband left behind, but it's also about how we're fighting the good fight for our country. And when it comes to career, I will be fully transparent. I was fully bought into the boss babe. I mean, I lived in Manhattan. Charlie essentially plucked me out of the New York City orbit and was like, no, I have a healthier way of viewing things and looking at life and things like that.

20:22And he was right. He was right. And I remember thinking, if I would have stayed on that path I was on, I would have lost out on some of the most beautiful moments of my life. children, having a husband, being able to create and build something so incredible. And again, yes, balance is an illusion. I bring my children to the office. I have them with me constantly. We have a phenomenal team. It doesn't just fall on my shoulders. Charlie was very good about creating and intentionally building a machine where it turns from founder-led to vision-led And he shared everything with me. I knew his goals.

21:11I knew what his vision was for things. So this is not out of my orbit. This is not uncomfortable for me. And it's not because I'm picking up a mantle that I understand and that I know that Charlie has entrusted to me, the team has entrusted to me, the Lord has entrusted to me. And I take that very seriously. how do you think about living your life in such a public way meaning he lived his life on social media in large part um you were always a big part of that i watched you i think was on thanksgiving um touring the office yeah about your thanksgiving this past week and it was on social media and you were on social media.

22:01How easy is that for you? How hard is that for you? How easy or hard do you think that is for your kids? It's maybe too early for them. Very. They're not getting a phone for a very long time. It's interesting. Social media, like many things, it can be used for such good and it can be used for such evil. And Charlie and I both intentionally, especially after he was murdered, I took it all off my phone. I don't even have news apps on my phone. I have nothing on my phone. I will let other people post for me and siphon through those comments. That is not, I do not have the brain space for that. And it would not be healthy for me either.

22:45I get called so many names. I genuinely don't care. I really don't. I've told you this before, when you kiss the bloody dead body of the person that you love, it pales in comparison to being called XYZ. Charlie understood the importance of social media, of how to reach a generation that was not paying attention to conventional news. It's the type of generation that is watching TikTok and X and Instagram getting their news from influencers, not truly journalists. He knew that. And so when he tapped into that, he wanted to be one of the rare voices that was a true North Star for a lot of a distinction between the brain rot that's out there and a very thoughtful and thinker-led understanding of the world.

23:53And for me, when it comes to social media, I want it to be a space for encouragement. there's plenty other spaces on this internet for people to have opinions to be a political pundit to be whatever you can be whatever you want on the internet and you can hide behind a little egg or avatar whatever you want it to be and for me if I'm going to use any bit of my time on this earth it would rather be encouraging people or harmonizing things or showing the true side of humanity and humanizing things and berating them. But for instance, when I showed that room at our office, all those letters that poured in, all those gifts, I don't think people understand that those letters to me mean more than just fan mail.

24:42That's not what that is. Those letters to me are letters that I will never get from my husband again for a Sabbath. He wrote me a letter every single Saturday. So those letters to me are letters that hold such a special place in my heart forever. And that's why I was so thankful to walk into that room. And that's why I also tell our staff, if you are having a rough day, please go into that room, open a letter, look at a gift, and see that your job is so much more important than just sitting behind a desk writing an email. You are making a huge difference within the youth and the movement. And remember that that's so important and that your life is so important.

25:27Because those letters aren't just avatars and social media bots. Those are real humans and real people. And I think that that's why I wanted to showcase that on social media. You guys used to actually turn social media. I mean, I know you said you now aren't looking at social media, taking the apps off. But for somebody who was in the social media world, apparently you guys used to actually turn the phones off at least for a day. Yes. Charlie would honor the Sabbath. And that's his last book he wrote, Stop in the Name of God. It's all about honoring the Sabbath. And he had to, it did not happen overnight.

26:05This is something that he leaned into. And on Friday night when he would get home from work, he would turn off his phone and he would shove it in the junk drawer and he would say, Shabbat Shalom, shove it in the drawer. And he was full dad mode, fully with the kids, sports mode on Saturdays for college football. And he could breathe. He had this sacred moment to just breathe and to rest and get away from the chatter, get away from the world and just have a moment to understand that life is so much bigger than the to-do list, than the small problem that you're facing that you'll laugh at five years or five months or five minutes from now.

26:54And he was really good about that. Let me ask you about this. And I think we should just, if we could address it head on, there are critiques and there's stuff that I've seen him say over the years. as I said, where we would disagree about stuff. There was a period of time where he said, I have a radical view on this, and I can defend it. I've thought about it. He believed we made a huge mistake when we passed the Civil Rights Act in 1960. Did you agree with him on that? It's interesting because, again, a lot of people took things that my husband said out of context. When you listen fully and you understand fully where he was coming from that, disagreement in our country is what democracy is all about.

27:39My husband, just because he would make certain statements, did not mean that he was trying to rile up a certain part of people. He was trying to, again, go after ideas, not people. He was trying to get people to think a little bit differently and to be able to have those discussions like he would have with you. And it's important. It's important. It might make people uncomfortable. It might make dialogue uncomfortable. But there's growth in that. There's true growth in that. You know, one of the debates that we would have is about gun violence in America. And I've written, he knew this, a lot about mass shootings in America for a long time.

28:31And I had written a whole series of articles at one point about how we try to prevent some of these mass shootings by ultimately trying to use the banking system to be able to find suspicious activity before it happened. And he would say, Andrew, you're missing it. He actually thought it was sort of an interesting idea. but he was a real believer, as you know, in the Second Amendment. And I'm curious how you think today about gun violence in America, given what happened to him. No, it's a thoughtful question. And I wouldn't wish upon anyone what I have been through. and I support the Second Amendment as well.

29:17Right. I do. But there's a bigger and much deeper conversation to all of that. And it's interesting because if you go on a campus and you ask a counselor, what is the number one or number two thing that these students are facing? They will always say mental health, anxiety, depression. Those are usually the top three. And what Charlie knew, and he was trying to explain to students on campus, was that you have to understand that brain health is so important. How you eat, how you take care of yourself, how you nourish yourself, how you rest. And he, to him, it was much more deeper and intricate.