In short
Social media as a high-powered attention system—how algorithms shape behavior, how governments and data-driven targeting may suppress content, and why AI/deepfakes could make misinformation and conflict more dangerous (“weapon of mass destruction” framing). Also covers how creators can grow audiences by mastering storytelling formats rather than chasing negativity.
Guest backgrounds
Brendan Kane is a long-time social media/creator strategy researcher (about 20 years in the space). He has worked with movie studios, journalists, professional athletes, actors, and celebrities; he also tested large volumes of content (claims include testing ~100,000 pieces). He previously worked with journalist Katie Couric on ~220 interviews (2015–2016 era mentioned), spanning figures like Joe Biden, Jessica Chastain, DJ Khalid, Jay Leno, and Kim Kardashian.
Key claims
Algorithms don’t create content; they suppress and prioritize to keep users on platforms longer for ad revenue. “The algorithm is a mirror of you,” and users can retrain feeds by changing engagement. Negativity/polarization isn’t required for virality; positivity and “PG” content can perform (MrBeast, Dodo). Phones aren’t necessarily “listening,” but platforms use behavioral mapping and targeting. AI may increase disinformation scalability; platforms must police authenticity, especially with deepfakes.
Notable examples
Mark Zuckerberg admitting suppression at US government behest; MrBeast and his philanthropy channel; Dodo animal rescue; Simon Squibb “man on the street” format; “two characters one light bulb” (history repeated); Charlie Kirk assassination deepfake scenario discussed; MrBeast curing blindness; Taylor Swift’s in-person tour demand.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Power of Social Media
0:46 to 2:38
Discussion on the potential of social media to influence large audiences and its implications.
“I would first let's define like what the algorithms are because there's a lot of myths and demonization about the algorithms.”
Algorithms and Manipulation
2:39 to 4:30
Exploration of how algorithms affect user behavior and content visibility.
“So but again, look at let's just look at Mr.”
Government Influence on Social Media
4:31 to 6:28
Debate on the role of government in regulating social media platforms and algorithms.
“Is there manipulation of all the data and all the interactions of all the people and the places that we go and the things that we do?”
User Behavior and Content Consumption
6:29 to 8:34
Analysis of how user behavior shapes the content they receive on social media.
“But on top of that, do you know how much data would need to be processed and how much would need to go into it?”
The Nature of Stories in Social Media
8:35 to 10:29
Discussion on the historical context of storytelling and its evolution in the digital age.
“It's the algorithm that's showing you what you chose to look for.”
The Dichotomy of Content Creation
10:30 to 12:34
Exploration of the challenges and responsibilities of content creators in today's landscape.
“and that polarization of diving into it with our comments and our attention?”
Influence vs. Manipulation
12:35 to 14:02
Debate on the fine line between influence and manipulation in social media marketing.
“Okay, so that makes me feel better because the answer is yes, because I intentionally put solutions at the end of all my content.”
The Role of Negativity in Social Media
14:02 to 21:00
Explore the debate on whether negativity is necessary for viral content on social media.
“And I'm not saying it's necessarily bad.”
History of Social Media and Storytelling
22:10 to 28:00
Understand the evolution of social media and the importance of storytelling for success.
“But if we look back over the course of human history, it's just history repeating itself.”
Understanding Social Media as Storytelling
28:00 to 29:10
Learn how storytelling shapes social media success and the importance of formats.
“Whether you agree with them, you don't like them, whatever it is, the best storytellers rise to the top.”
Show all 30 chapters
Analyzing Content Performance Drivers
29:10 to 30:25
Discover how to analyze content performance and what drives views in social media.
“authentic to who you are and the message that you want to represent, and then study it in depth.”
Navigating Content Creation Challenges
30:25 to 33:10
Hear personal insights on the challenges of finding a unique style in content creation.
“Well, we knew each other a few years ago, but we've connected because from my side, I feel like I want a bit of help to find what is that one style.”
The Debate on Live Content vs. Pre-recorded
33:10 to 35:30
Engage in a discussion about the effectiveness of live versus pre-recorded content.
“This is one of those formats that you can explore, you can express.”
Finding Your Unique Content Format
35:30 to 37:40
Learn about the importance of finding a content format that resonates with you.
“It takes me 93 fucking takes to do one reel.”
AI and the Future of Content Creation
37:40 to 40:00
Explore the implications of AI on personal brands and the authenticity of content.
“And that I've seen this cycle happen time and time again with content creators.”
Risks of AI-Driven Content
40:00 to 42:00
Understand the potential dangers of AI-driven content in social media and misinformation.
“People just seeding like tens of thousands of crap content to these platforms.”
The Dangers of Disinformation on Social Media
42:00 to 43:26
Explore the challenges of policing disinformation in the age of social media.
“Should they or shouldn't they police that strongly?”
Building an Audience from Scratch
43:26 to 46:18
Learn about the steps to grow a social media following rapidly.
“because before COVID you were telling me you guys were doing all these events.”
The Importance of Storytelling in Content Creation
46:18 to 49:15
Understand the significance of storytelling in engaging an audience.
“I didn't use it to turn myself into an influencer.”
Connecting with Your Audience on Social Media
49:15 to 51:57
Discover how to foster deeper connections with your audience through social media.
“I would say kind of a little bit what we talked about is understanding human behavior, understanding, you know, communication and connection.”
Understanding Attention and Its Value
51:57 to 55:25
Examine the concept of attention in the digital age and its impact on creators.
“You know, they used to say a few years ago, it's the attention economy.”
The Pitfalls of Buying Followers
55:25 to 56:00
Learn why purchasing followers is detrimental to genuine audience growth.
“Any subject matter, any niche can break through and drive results for your business without changing who you are, without being somebody else, without having to do something that's not connected to who you are.”
Understanding Social Media Growth Challenges
56:00 to 56:50
Learn the importance of storytelling in social media to connect and engage audiences.
“And as we've mentioned, when I first started in social media back in 2005, it was, you get somebody to follow you, they see your content.”
The Value of Paid Advertising
56:50 to 58:40
Discover when and how to effectively use paid ads to boost successful content.
“And then what about you create content on platforms and then you like run ads to them or you boost them?”
Creating a Successful Service-Based Business
58:40 to 1:01:00
Learn how to leverage your expertise into a service-based business model.
“You don't need a lot of people to pay you money to make that money.”
Finding Authenticity in Content Creation
1:01:00 to 1:03:50
Understand the importance of authenticity and enjoyment in content creation.
“So I'm 1 ,400 episodes in and I'm kind of doing it because I'm 1 ,400 episodes in as well, just like I did 93 takes on a video.”
Navigating Content Monetization and Challenges
1:03:50 to 1:08:20
Explore the realities of monetization on social media and the challenges faced.
“I originally designed this brand to be a completely separate brand from all my companies.”
The Impact of Algorithms and Audience Reach
1:08:20 to 1:10:04
Learn how algorithms affect content reach and the misconception of shadow banning.
“I can't speak specifically to how demonetization impacts reach, which I'm assuming it makes sense that it would.”
Understanding Content Suppression on Social Media
1:10:04 to 1:11:01
Explore why many creators believe they're being shadow banned and what truly affects their reach.
“on television it would be a lot worse to get on there and the the reach would be a lot less now I think you bring up a good point.”
Brendan Kane's Company and Offerings
1:11:06 to 1:11:52
Learn about Brendan Kane's company Hook Point and its services for content creators.
“to tell everyone what you do where to follow you uh yeah so i founded a company hook point and we do exactly what we talked about is we match people with their ideal format.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00With one of these, you can reach millions of people. Could it be the thing that launches us into World War III? Is it true you went from zero to a million followers in 30 days? Yes. Tell us how you did it, and then can you tell us how you do it today? Focus on one thing and one thing only. If you focus just on that, you will become successful. Governments are definitely manipulating these platforms. I'm forced to do that by the algorithm. Not forced to do it, you choose to do it. All right, I've got a therapist already. The algorithm is a mirror of you. Will AI wipe out personal brands? Yes, that's where the real scary stuff comes in.
0:37I'm quite scared.
0:41Are the algorithms manipulating us? It's a great question. I would first let's define like what the algorithms are because there's a lot of myths and demonization about the algorithms. they serve one purpose and goal and that is to keep people on the platforms longer so these platforms can serve more ads which sounds like manipulation to me they are manipulating us to keep us on the platforms longer yes yeah are they manipulating the way that we think and our politics and things of that nature that's a whole nother question because we have to remember the algorithms don't actually create content.
1:22Human beings create content. But the algorithms can suppress content. Yeah, they can. Didn't Mark Zuckerberg recently come out and basically admit it? Yes. Yeah. He did. He said that we suppressed - At the behest of the US government. However, we have to keep in mind that over a billion pieces of content are posted across these platforms every single day. So we're talking about a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percentage. Now, should they be doing that? Are we? Yeah, we are. I mean, how do we know? Because we see that in the data. We see that in all of the content that's pushed out there.
1:58So is it right what was done? No. Did Zuckerberg do that on purpose? No, he was forced into that. But again, we're talking - But he could have resisted, couldn't he? It's very difficult to resist the US government and the presidency of the United States to say we're not going to do that because - Yeah, okay. government regulation and controls come in. So could he have, does he have a choice in the matter? Yes. But are there consequences with certain choices that you make? Absolutely. Right. So really, in a lot of ways, then how the algorithm is, is based on who's the president? For a very small percentage of the content that is published, yes.
2:42Yeah. So but again, look at let's just look at Mr. Beast. He is the most subscribed person on YouTube. Is he the most subscribed person on YouTube because of who is in the presidency's office? No. No, but he also has got PG content. Yes, but still, but that's where we have to kind of delineate like what we're talking about in terms of the algorithms or these platforms suppressing content. Are they suppressing certain types of content? Yes. Is it right? No. We can get into the whole argument about free speech, but we're talking about such a small percentage of the content that is published across these platforms.
3:25They are there to manipulate our attention. They are there to manipulate how long we spend on these platforms. That is proven. I mean, they're literally using psychology that casinos use to keep people with the slap machines and keep gambling. There's variable rewards and there's deep psychology built into this. They have teams of human behavioral psychologists that keep training the algorithms and training people to be addicted to these platforms. So that in and of itself is definitely true. Right. So there's like five roads I want to go down here and I'm going to try and go down each one. So the first road is when you have a conversation with someone and then you go on your phone and go on social media and there's an ad or content directly linked to that conversation you just had.
4:22and the first time you saw it, you thought it was a coincidence and then it keeps happening, is that manipulation of the algorithm? Is the phone listening to us? No. Is there manipulation of all the data and all the interactions of all the people and the places that we go and the things that we do? Yes. You don't think the phone is listening to us? No, because, and there's a few reasons. Number one. So it's just a coincidence every time? No, it's they're the smartest behavioral mapping data people in the world. Like, you've got to understand how much money these platforms are making and how big of a team and data scientists.
5:01And how much budget they have. Exactly. I mean, these people, this isn't like back in the day when we remember like MySpace and Friendster, where they were just kind of throwing stuff at the wall and hoping like something would stick. Like, these companies are super successful for a reason. Yeah. Now, the reasons I, listen, I'm not on the inside. This is from my interpretations and everything that I kind of see being in this space for 20 years. If the phones or let's just, if the social networks were listening to us, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, WhatsApp, number one, the mobile devices, iPhones, Apple would have to be in on it because they cannot do these things without that permission.
5:43And we know from Tim Cook and Apple, they are vehemently against these types of practices. So they say. What do they have to gain out of it? Billions of dollars. No, no. Of course they do. If they can listen to our conversation. No, I mean, in terms of supporting social networks doing it. If they wanted to do it, why wouldn't they just harness that technology for themselves? Why would they let everyone else do it? Because they have, like, for example, iMessage is a social network. People don't look at it that way. But they would knock out the ability for all these other platforms to do it and then just keep it for themselves.
6:20That's the way that I look at it. Number two is, do you know how much battery drain we would get if it was actually listening 24-7? We'd get battery drain anyway. I know. Like even the new phones. But on top of that, do you know how much data would need to be processed and how much would need to go into it? Yeah. But no, I don't believe that it's listening to people's devices. The sceptical part of my brain, based on what's happened to us in humanity over the last five years and six months, the conversation we were just happening before, I wouldn't be surprised. But that's fair enough. OK, so the phones aren't listening to us.
6:58OK, next road down the algorithm, though, is whenever you look at anything, you get a load more of that. Yeah. Is that manipulation? Manipulation? Well, it's, again, it's manipulation to keep you on the platforms longer. Because I'll tell you what pisses me off. Pisses me off when I've followed A, B, C, D, E because I want to, and I'm getting E, F, G, H, I that I don't want just because I stop and have a quick look at why is this being shown on my feed? Well, you can just retrain it. You just start looking at the other content again, and it'll start serving that content to you. So first point we definitely agree on, and that is the amount of people that hate on me on LinkedIn and about once every 10 days I intentionally do a really positive happy post undeniably sunshine and rainbows no one watches it no one listens to it no one comments on it and then the death of the UK the death of London something about the algorithms and millions of people watch it and the haters come in and hate and they don't get the irony why don't you just comment less on what you don't like and don't want, unfollow it, give the algorithm some feedback.
8:11No, I'm not interested. Follow and engage more on what you do. And then is the algorithm going to be a mirror of you? Well, the algorithm is exactly what you just said. It's a mirror of you. Say that again. The algorithm is a mirror of you. So a lot of people aren't happy with the algorithm. So start consuming other content. So they have to look in the mirror then and take responsibility. It isn't the algorithm. It's the algorithm that's showing you what you chose to look for. Yes. Yes, but. There's no but. There is a but. The for you feed, the stuff that you get pushed on without checking it out.
8:53Again, they're pushing things based upon the behaviors that you're implementing. So it's not just random. Nothing is random. in these platforms nothing is random in these platforms the reality is again these platforms are built and designed to make money and they print cash why print cash because they make you addicted to the platform so why is the algorithm if it's designed to keep you on the platform longer going to see content that you don't want to watch because it might have an ulterior motive like whatever party it wants to get in power. But why would it go after that alternative motive instead of printing cash?
9:35And again, we have to look at content like Mr. Beast. Why is he the most subscribed person on YouTube? Because he has spent, what, 15 years mastering it. Yeah, but if it was all about the demonization of humanity and putting people in power and political motives and things of that nature, And it's not even just his main channel, his philanthropy channel, which he gets a lot of hate from, which says something about what you were just talking about, has 28 million subscribers. But then there's other positive people out there that are having, you know, like there's like channels like the Dodo, which is all about rescuing animals and things of that nature.
10:16You know, there's people like Mel Robbins and Tony Robbins that have success and attention. So like you said, there is this vortex, and I think we need to look at ourselves as human beings, of why are we attracted to the negativity and that polarization of diving into it with our comments and our attention? I just think that, is that not just human nature? Are we not wired to be more attuned to a threat than a reward? I think you hit it spot on. So if we think about, people think social media is this like brand new invention. Yeah. It's just storytelling at scale. So when was the first story ever told?
10:58Probably around some fire, 10 ,100 million years ago. About 50 ,000 years ago. But what were those stories? They weren't fairy tales. They weren't political conversations. They were stories about survival, how to hunt, what to fear, how to build tribes to protect ourselves. So stories from the very beginning stage of us are built on survival, are built on fear. That's ingrained in the human DNA. Right. So in some levels, it does make sense. Now, the question we have to ask ourselves is, can we evolve beyond that? Where that doesn't have to be the core aspect of who we are. Well, according to you, we've had 50 ,000 years, and I don't think we've done very fucking well, have we?
11:41We haven't. No. But then maybe it's also cyclical because I face many dichotomies, demons, you know, existential crises as a creator because I used to be an artist. And, you know, I think about these things deeply. And I know if I post anything about the death of the UK or how bad a digital idea or a cashless society is, I know I'm going to get millions of views. and on the one hand i really believe it's fucking important to talk about these things because if we don't then we are going to be completely controlled on the other hand i feel like am i feeding my own doom and do i become a doom monger and am i really serving people and do you understand the i honor well the first question is are you providing value with your perspective on those subject matters are you helping people find the clarity that you believe that they need to find through that message being shared?
12:36Okay, so that makes me feel better because the answer is yes, because I intentionally put solutions at the end of all my content. Sometimes people miss it. They just see the problem and not the solution, but I always put solutions. And I get hundreds of messages a day with people saying, look, you're brave for speaking out. Thanks for speaking out. Really love the work you do. Keep doing the work you do. So surely the best metric of if you're providing value is what people tell you. Yeah. So there's a difference between what you just walked through and what you're doing and doing clickbait to just garner the attention.
13:12But I also know the game. I know, but that's, you know. So sometimes I feel a bit dirty. But again, it goes back to why are you doing it? Are you doing it just to manipulate attention in people or are you doing it to try and help people on their journey? Do you want the honest answer? Yeah. Both. because if I don't get views, I can't achieve the goals. But there are thousands of ways that we can get views. We did, you know, we had a strategy session together a few weeks ago. Like, for example. Okay, so now let me rewind, not retract, rewind. I am not creating any content to manipulate because that was the word you used.
13:51Let me state that. But I want to get maximum views. And so I know how to use certain words or images or phrases or themes. that will get attention. But that's a form of manipulation. And I'm not saying it's necessarily bad. I'd probably more call it influence than manipulation. Well, it's mass persuasion, which is a form of manipulation. And I'm not saying that in a negative way. Well, yeah, we're kind of getting into semantics. Yeah. I'd have to get in the thesaurus and look at this. Okay, maybe you could. But then at the same time, I'm forced to do that by the algorithm. You're not forced to do it.
14:25You choose to do it. Let's just take an example of somebody we talk about. I've got a fucking therapist. Well, let's talk about... Okay. I am influenced and manipulated to do it by the algorithm because if I don't, my content doesn't get any views. I disagree. I don't think you do. Let's talk about somebody that we talked about when we had, what was it, coffee in London. Your friend Simon Squibb. I'm glad it was memorable for you. Your friend Simon Squibb. Yeah. he's doing man on the street positive what is your dream no a lot of his stuff is um you know fighting against the education system he's picking fights online he's doing if you look at the things that go viral and break through it is about exposing people's failure to pursue their dreams there is an underlying positive message now does he do those political things yes but if you look at the views on those political things, they completely bond to the positive nature of it.
15:27Yeah. So I just completely disagree that you have to go polarization, complete negativity in order to break through on social media. There are plenty examples that you don't have to. Again, Mr. Beast Philanthropy Channel, if it was all about that, then why is him curing a thousand and blind people going viral. Why would that ever go viral if it was all about the polarization and negativity about content? The dodo about rescuing animals from animal shelters that are about to be killed and things. Why would that ever go viral? So I agree with you to a point, but then I could just say, well, go on X and find a positive post on X.
16:08You won't find one. And it's all polarization that goes viral on X. So for the argument that you're creating in the positive, which could be the outlier i'm not saying i'm not saying that negative doesn't go viral i'm not saying that that's not the case i'm not saying that you can't find millions of examples of negativity going viral billions yeah what i'm saying is there is an alternative route to it positivity does and can go viral in the uk can it on social media it does yeah because this i mean like our team has spent 15 ,000 hours researching content. So I'm not looking at this from the standpoint of somebody that just started becoming a social media manager two or three years ago.
16:54Like we have done the hard research. And when we work with clients, not a single time do we ever recommend something that is negative in nature. And they have massive success. We've generated 60 billion views and 100 million followers for our clients. And it's not predicated on negativity. Do you mean zero negativity? Because polarising isn't necessarily negative, you know, and a fear or pain based headline isn't necessarily negative. Like, for example, warning about the upcoming recession and crash, which I think is coming, highly likely to come. You know, people aren't if I said, oh, you know, make some money in these times, you know, get rich in this moment in history.
17:37No one's going to click it. You know, if I said house price crash warning, people will click it. That's not negative. It's just the slant and angle of the headline that people react to. Do people react to it? Yeah. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Way more. By the way, as someone who's taught people money and business for 20 years, most people do nothing until things are bad. You know, with their finance, they do nothing until it's bad. So you have to warn them of the problems because otherwise wouldn't they all just be wealthy and rich? Yeah, but even with those warnings, do they become wealthy and rich?
18:09Well, more of them make the change. Like more and more people now are investing in silver and gold because of what's going on in the world. And long-term silver and gold. What percentage though? I mean. Well, I haven't got the data. Yeah. How would you get the data? Again, I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying. I'm just saying. No, I'm just saying that there is another side to it. Yeah. There's Mr. Beast. Is the thing in even like Mark Tilbury, who we talked about, Cody Sanchez, who we talked about. Like, are they overtly negative in their messaging in terms of? Mark, I mean, Cody sometimes plays the polarization game.
18:46Polarization versus negativity are two different things, though. I think that's what I was saying first. Yeah, but I think we need to make the distinction here because I hear a lot of what you're saying is social media is just a cesspool of negativity. That's the only thing that will break through. It's the only way to have success. yes what i'm saying i said those words but i'm not saying that you said that i'm saying that that's what i hear a lot yeah and i just want to kind of point that out yeah i'm not here to say that those things don't work and i'm not here to say that there's not a ton of it no and we also say that there is another side to it that you don't have to go down that route route until in order to be successful yeah and we also did say that the algorithm is like a mirror like a reflection of you.
19:30And, you know, going back to my existential crises I have, maybe that I'm exaggerating slightly, but these things do sometimes keep me up at night. You know, if you're an artist, you probably want to feel like you're doing work that's true to who you are as an artist and what you want to say. And you don't want to feel like you're churning out a load of prints just to, for, you know, make some money rather than paint original pieces. And, you know, when that hangs up on in the gallery and someone criticizes it you know you can stand behind why you think it's a good piece of art and I find that social media just you know sticks the finger in the wound of that and fundamentally your question to me was do I feel like I'm doing good work mostly yes because of course we will sometimes post something that's um sometimes you interview a guest so you're like, was that right?
20:25But because I'm in the game now and I know the game, I can have a choice between, you know, how to get rich and happy or warning, recession looming. I know which one, you know, it's undeniable which one's going to get the most clicks. And if I don't play the game of getting the most clicks, it's like me painting all my paintings at home and never taking them to a gallery and no one ever seeing them. This recent budget should warn you that your pension is not safe and secure and they're coming for your inheritance. Do you even know how much is in your pension or where your pension is invested? Add to this the recent inheritance tax grab on your pensions and the risk of a market crash.
21:07You probably didn't know this and I didn't until recently, but physical gold can be added to your pension pot. Gold is inheritance tax free and has grown 700 % in the last 20 years. You probably know from my content, I'm investing heavily in silver and gold, and that's why I've partnered with Direct Bullion. Myself and Nigel Farage are brand ambassadors, and Direct Bullion can help you with gold to protect and grow your pension. I buy my gold and silver from Direct Bullion, and I don't earn any money on any purchases of gold or silver if you buy direct from Direct Bullion. So if you go to robmore.directbullion.com, you can get a great price on your silver and gold, and you can get the pension gold investing guide completely for free.
21:47As you know, I don't do many strategic partnerships. And when I do, I do them with people who are credible, who've been doing it a long time, who invest in things that I invest into. And gold and silver's going wild. I'm investing heavily in gold and silver. And I recommend you check out robmore.directbullion.com. Yeah, I'm just saying that there's different ways to play the game. there's different contextual ways that you can shape those things like i spent two years in journalism working with one of the biggest journalists in the united states i know exactly what you're talking about i tested 70 000 pieces of content i know what works what doesn't work and things of that nature well you laid out will that work yes are there 10 other ways that you can contextualize that that doesn't have to be overtly negative in order to do it yes that's that's all I'm here to say.
22:37Now, I think the interesting conversation is like what we talked about in terms of, you know, storytelling in human history is people are up in arms about social media and thinking that social media is destroying human civilization. But if we look back over the course of human history, it's just history repeating itself. Because again, why do we overtly like negative content? Think about back to the Roman Empire, sitting in the coliseum watching people kill themselves or kill each other for for entertainment if we look at what was what was predating social media we had like tabloid magazines we had you know news organizations we had um newspapers and magazines that controlled the distribution of what the messages were talking about were going out into the world and if we go back in human history they are doing the same things that you're talking about manipulating the perception of human behavior what we think what we feel just through other mediums the only thing that social media has given us is it's truly democratized communication to the masses decentralized it yeah meaning that any one of us like you and i here now like you and i yeah like 30 years ago could we be reaching and talking to as many people without a massive team a massive budget a tv deal and things of that.
24:02Yeah, and a huge studio like the BBC. No, we couldn't. And now we can. Yeah. And I think that's a great thing. Yeah. Do you? I think it's an amazing thing if we understand it. Because to your point is, now that, you know, with these things in our pocket, every single one of us has one of these. I'm telling you, that's fucking listening to you. I'm telling you. So with one of these, with one of these, if you tell the right story in the right way, you can reach millions of people. Now, that can be used for good or that can be used for evil. And as we also forecast into the future with deepfakes in AI, the real question then becomes, and I'm not saying it is, could social media be the next weapon of mass destruction?
24:50Could it be the thing that launches us into World War III? You know, governments are definitely manipulating these platforms in order to, yeah. I don't know the ins and outs, but there's a lot of clues that China is leveraging TikTok in America to collect a lot of data on individuals and probably doing nefarious things with it. So there is an immense power that has been created. And the real question is, what does the future of humanity look like with that immense power? Is it going to be used for good or is it going to be used for bad? Now, again, the only difference between past and present is you, I, the average person on the street can reach millions and millions of people with whatever message they choose to put out into the world.
25:54less than four Starbucks coffees a month. There are hundreds of hours of courses, resources and masterclasses going back a decade to teach how to make, manage and multiply money and gain financial freedom. So join thousands of other money and freedom seekers on the link money.school and start today your journey to financial freedom and more money. I want to ask you in about a minute to talk through your experience of 20 years in this game and you know why we're talking and then I'd like you to say what would you do if you were starting again on social media to build a big audience and you know be a creator so when I started in social media was 2005 so at this time myspace was a prominent player there's 25 million people on myspace about 6 million people on facebook and youtube was going into its first year so back then social media was super simple you get somebody to follow you you post a piece of content and people see it yeah magical magical you dm each other on one platform and they yeah one platform and they hear you they see your message however as social media grew there was more and more people added it by 2010 we were at a billion people today we're at 5.2 billion people across these platforms so in my experience the big thing that happened is the algorithms what we've been talking about because the algorithms didn't exist in the beginning.
27:23It was just post and be seen. But as more and more people came on these platforms, there had to be a decision because if we open up our favorite app right now, there's probably 150 ,000 pieces of content that could be seeded to you based upon all the people you follow and the content you've engaged with. They can't seed that much content to you. So it has to prioritize. There had to be an algorithm. There had to be to prioritize what you see first. What are the first five or 10 pieces of content that you see in that? So my experience over the past 20 years is really dedicated to one thing and one thing only understanding why some stories break through, go viral versus why some stories fall flat, because social media is not a mystery.
28:05It's not a black box. It is storytelling. The best storytellers rise to the top. Whether you agree with them, you don't like them, whatever it is, the best storytellers rise to the top. It's literally survival of the fittest of the best storytellers. So in terms of how I would approach it in terms of content, if I was starting from scratch, starting from zero, is everything that I look at is from a storytelling lens. And on social media, there are what called formats, which are structures that have proven to succeed time and time again. So we mentioned Simon Squibb. He uses the man on the street format.
28:42That is a format that can be used across any industry, any sector. Now, the interesting thing about that format is, you know, the first time that was ever used? Well, you told me, so I'm going to pretend like I don't know, but. 1954, the first season of The Tonight Show. So 70 years ago. So this is where, again, it goes back to storytelling and social media is not something new. It's history repeating itself. It's just the vehicle. Yes. Yeah. So essentially the way that I look at social media, And what I would recommend doing is find the format that represents who you are, that's authentic to who you are and the message that you want to represent, and then study it in depth.
29:16What makes that format tick? Because everybody, as they look at social media, they're looking at the iceberg analogy, the tip of the iceberg. They only see the top 1 % breaking through, not the 99 % of people failing. So for example, at our company, what we would do with man on the street is we open up a spreadsheet, we put 20 of the high performers, 20 of the average and 20 of the low performers. And we've done this specifically with Simon Squibb. And we'll spend about 15 to 20 hours cross analyzing what's the difference between him using that format and generating millions of views versus him using that format and only generating 100 ,000 views.
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29:52So we look for these things that are called performance drivers that drive performance up and drive performance down. So it's things like pacing, tonality, the hook, the first three seconds, tension. Is there a perspective shift? What's the effect on the viewer? So if you want to start from scratch on social media, focus on one thing and one thing only. How do you become the best storyteller possible? And the best place to start is to find the format that matches the message, matches your communication strengths and weaknesses, and feels authentic to who you are and what you want to represent.
30:26Okay. So we've got to know each other. Well, we knew each other a few years ago, but we've connected because from my side, I feel like I want a bit of help to find what is that one style. But I struggle with the one style. I like doing content on the move. I find it quite easy. I don't really like doing scripted content in the studio. I've done a bit of scripted content in the studio and that's blown up. So that makes me want to do more scripted content in the studio. Um, images work well on Facebook. My shorts can be repurposed on multiple channels. There's like three or four different styles of shorts we're doing.
31:12I did some man on the street, it blew up, but that's a man on the street is some of the highest investment of time to create content. It's difficult with, you know, I'm a busy guy. So I suppose you would look at my content and go, well, it's a, I'm doing fucking everything. I don't have a style. Can I still succeed as a creator or have I got to create one style number one you are succeeding as a creator so that's it's just there's levels to the game it's like how how good do you want to be how how high do you want to break through but is the real question is there also who are you as a person and what's the context of your life I'll give you an example yeah um if I go live I would say five percent of the time I fuck up the content.
32:03If I do a one minute pre record, I would say 5 % of the time, I nail the content. And I don't mean posting it and it getting views. I mean, actually just doing it. I did a one minute video outside Starbucks, and it took me 93 takes, 93 to do a one minute video. And in the end, the only reason I fucking finished is because I'm stubborn. So this is my deleted folder here. I don't know if you can see that. But there are hundreds of fucked up one minute shorts. But if I go live now on Facebook, it gets virtually no views, because Facebook aren't pushing lives anymore. I was getting millions of views a day on lives, they're not pushing lives anymore.
32:48So I don't think it's as simple as pick your style, do man on the street, get the best at it. Or maybe it is if you're like that kind of person. But I'm not that kind of person. I don't want to do 93 takes for one minute video. You and I here, we're just doing this. We're chatting. It's natural. And we can get 100 clips from this. Do you see what I mean? Yep. But this is a format. This is one of those formats that you can explore, you can express. So you're saying I should do this and nothing else? No, I'm not saying that i'm saying that find the format that matches what you want to do and master that okay so for me live content but the social media channels like they're not bothered about why does it have to be live this is i'm only answering your question no but this is not this is not live no but you're changing the context of the question because no but live is not the format well no live for me is the format it's not a format because anybody can go live and not use a format there's different formats within live so just because you go live doesn't mean it's a format anybody can click record and go live i can go live on instagram and just you know talk about anything but and again it's like you look at like twitch streamers what percentage of twitch streamers are successful i don't know but i guess it's less than one percent yeah yeah but then because again but that's mastery of a specific format yeah yeah like you know but this is essentially live in a way what you're saying is you don't want to be scripted what you're saying is you don't want to be constricted to confines of doing content in a specific way i'm saying i find it a lot harder because i will do it if i get rewarded with reach engagement and positive impact and i like i stopped doing facebook lives probably three months ago and because i was doing good content that would have got millions of views pre and post COVID.
34:49And now we'll get 20 or 30 ,000 views, and it'll take three days. Like I disagree with you, that it's not a format. Because if sitting in the studio and doing a voiceover for a like an AI edited overlay is a format, then so is going live. So you can challenge me in a minute, let me just finish. So So like for me, I can go live. I know what I'm going to say. I don't need a script. I hardly fuck it up. Bang, let's go. And I'm getting millions of views. Then overnight I go live. I don't get any views anymore. But I'm the live guy. So let's just keep going live to no one. No. OK, I've clearly everyone's reels.
35:28It's reels, Rob. It's got to be reels now. Do reels, Rob. My team, Rob, do reels. You don't understand. It takes me 93 fucking takes to do one reel. And if you did, you wouldn't ask me. but i fucking do them anyway because i want to get my message out and i want to be successful i'm a stubborn motherfucker but i don't want to do reels but the social media platforms are it's the only way i can get views versus lives but it's not you first off you know you're going to be in a therapy session when you i love it i love it um number one if you want to go live go to twitch i mean the whole platform is built for that but going live is not a format it is it's not How is it a format?
36:08What's the structure? What's the structure? Because like I can go live right now and just sit here, you know, like watching me type on a computer. You can go live and give a monologue. Somebody can go live and have a Q &A. Somebody can have go live and start breaking down news clips. Like there's formats within the structure. So the live is just a feature. It's not a structure of storytelling. so like let's just let me give you an example let's just say that we turn these cameras on and we were going live oh it'd be even better okay but what's the difference i like a live audience i'm natural i don't overthink okay so if you like all my words you know what you could do is you can have a live audience in here there's nothing saying that you can't and and i'm saying like a good friend of mine myron golden he literally does lives twice a week in his studio in Tampa and it performs really well.
37:04You're so focused on live as a feature instead of looking at it from a storytelling perspective. In terms of what you said, in terms of your frustration of reels, then stop doing that. When we talked before, we said, man on the street, you don't have to do that. You don't have to go and read off a temp prompter. You don't have to read off a script. We've analyzed over 500 storytelling formats. There are so many to choose from that can tap into what you want to do. I think what you're doing is, I'm feeling the frustration because you're doing things that you don't necessarily want to do, but you're seeing success with it.
37:44And that I've seen this cycle happen time and time again with content creators. That's kind of like what being an entrepreneur is a lot of the time, isn't it? Yeah, but there's some level of enjoyment there. Otherwise you wouldn't do it. yeah and i is i'm an entrepreneur too it's the hardest fucking thing you're going to do in your life yeah but we do it because we do love it on some level yeah and i shared my frustration like i'm not expecting anyone to cry me a river and it makes me rich and i'm overall very happy i would like to find my format and be in the flow but i i love that you're crying me a river because what you are saying can be fixed there's a solution to it you don't have to keep doing what you're doing and sit there and do 93 takes.
38:22There is no reason you have to do that. Yeah. What's keeping you a prisoner of this is the success that you've seen. Yeah, yeah. Success can be a trap. Yes. Yeah. So are you saying, fuck the algorithms, fuck the response, fuck the views, just find your format and go and just have faith and think long term and push through? What I'm saying is ignore and push all those things aside and focus on how do you become the best storyteller possible. And I promise you, if you focus just on that, you will become successful. Okay. Thank you. I feel like I can do this now. You can do it. Will AI wipe out personal brands and creators?
39:08You're seeing more and more faceless content. I unfollowed, I think it was Ladbible or Unilad, because they're posting a load of stuff now that's just created by AI. and it's not real to me anymore. I think we have to ask ourselves, what timeline are we talking about here? Are we talking about five years from now, 10 years from now, 50 years from now? You know, in the next five or 10 years, I don't think so. I think AI, well, you know what the biggest decision is going to be that controls, that ultimately controls what happens with this is the social media platforms. Are they going to allow 100 % AI driven content?
39:45Because didn't YouTube recently ban it? No, the CEO just literally came out and said, why should we penalize content for being 100 % AI generated? Oh, so they've done the opposite. Yeah. I think initially they said that. What they were trying to protect against is content farms. People just seeding like tens of thousands of crap content to these platforms. But the CEO of YouTube recently did an interview. It was like, why should we penalize content that's 100 % AI? Because it's not real. It's not human. Because we don't know what we're seeing. anymore if it's true if it's authentic it's okay well what about animation movies is that real no i mean there's real people writing it there's yeah and there's voice actors there's the storytelling models behind it yeah i mean that it's a good question and and so to be honest it's just like these platforms will dictate the future of how we interact with this my personal belief in the next five to ten years i think that there's always going to be a demand for person you know like a real person i think that there will be a demand for ai driven content now if we're thinking 50 years from now i have no idea yeah because like a piece of content that i've been seeing on my feed a lot is like a supercar and then a horse or a bull or an animal cramp you know walks all over and it's obviously ai i'm like get off my feed what's gonna happen three years from now when you can't tell that it's ai well this is this is why i asked you the question yeah and um It's dangerous.
41:15It's a very, because when we talk about like social media being a weapon of mass destruction, if you're putting out deep fakes or even if they master deep fakes, if you're putting out, you know, some type of video of something happening in Ukraine or China or something that triggers people into action, you know, just think about what recently happened with Charlie Kirk's assassination. Imagine a world three years from now where we have all of this AI driven content. And at that point, we can't determine what's real and what's not. that's where the real scary stuff comes in. And that's where it's like these platforms have to make some tough decisions about how they're going to police content that's not real.
41:55Now, at the same time - And what's your opinion on that? Like put a flag in the ground. Should they or shouldn't they police that strongly? I think they have to police it strongly, but I think that there has to be some technology built that controls it on the blockchain in some way. However, let me just point out one other thing. Okay. I see how you're controlling this. No, no, no, because this is a major concern. It goes back to your concern about social media in general is how much fake stuff is being put out there today by real people. Yeah. I mean, there's real people disseminating false information, fake news, things of that nature.
42:34Now, what AI does is it makes it a lot more scalable. And quicker. And quicker. Yeah. And it could be faceless, which means the scammers can hide behind it all. Or you can have a face in somebody that performs at a very high level that looks calm, collected, versus some nut on the other side of the internet where you can totally tell this person has no idea what they're talking about. But the reality is we have a problem with disinformation today. Now, how you police that, it's a challenge because like in America, you have freedom of speech. And it's just like, well, then who's going to be the bearer of...
43:09Yeah. You don't really have that in the UK. Yeah.
43:15But it's scary and I don't know what the future holds. I think that at least in our lifetime, I think that there's always going to be a demand for in-person or authentic connection with people because we still, even coming out post COVID, because before COVID you were telling me you guys were doing all these events. Yeah. Post COVID. Yeah. Post COVID people are coming together. They want to see things in person. They want something real and tangible. Like you look at Taylor Swift's tour, like how many people turned out for that thing because they wanted somebody real? Now, does that mean the next Taylor Swift may be an AI character that people buy in?
43:51Yes, but they can't replace that in-person experience and that connection with an actual human being. Yeah. I'm quite scared. Yeah, I mean, it is scary, but there's hope with it too. I mean, it's not all negative. Again, the reality is these platforms have democratized communication to the masses. So we just hope that people with a positive message, people that can transform the world in a positive way, will get the platform to do that now because they have the tools accessible to them. Is it true you went from zero to a million followers in 30 days? Yes. Really? Yeah. And what platform was that?
44:36Facebook. Okay. Can you tell us how you did it? And then can you tell us how you do it today if it was different? Yeah. So the way, so it's not like I just woke up one morning and did this. I has spent years working with movie studios, journalists, professional athletes, actors, and celebrities. And I was just testing everything. I was testing, I probably tested a hundred thousand pieces of content, just kind of understanding what worked, what didn't, things of that nature. And one of the things that before I did it that really was an eye-opening experience is I worked with this journalist, Katie Couric, in the United States for about two years.
45:13And I did about 220 interviews with her, from Joe Biden to Jessica Chastain to DJ Khalid to Jay Leno, all across the board, even Kim Kardashian. And the fascinating thing that I saw in the data and all the testing is celebrity wasn't moving the needle. It was the underlying story that drove it. Like the most viral video we did was with a guy named Brandon Stanton, the founder of Humans of New York and over all of those interviews. So it just seeded the idea in my head is like, okay, you know, because when I would talk to people like friends and colleagues and I said, hey, I'm seeing a pattern here.
45:51Like you can create an audience from scratch if you're not on TV, if you're not a celebrity or anything. This was back 2015, 2016. So it's not like what it is today where everybody and their mother is talking about social media management and virality and all these hacks and tricks and things. So I just looked at all the data and I said, okay, I'm going to run this experiment of demonstrating that anybody can build an audience in a short period of time. And I thought about, well, who am I going to do it on? And I thought, why not myself? Because I wasn't on TV. I was behind the scenes. So I used it purely as an experiment.
46:27I didn't use it to turn myself into an influencer. So I leverage everything that we talked about. I identified the formats, identified the structures. And over the course of 30 days, I just kept testing, refining, testing, refining different content, different messages and things of that nature. So for me, I was testing like podcast clips, motivational quotes, um, you know, certain formats about talking heads and things of that nature for me to test what it would take from people starting from scratch to build a million followers in such a short period of time. So it wasn't like I had this grandmaster plan that I'm going to turn myself in the influencer of this specific niche or space.
47:05But to your latter question of how anybody can build an audience is spend as much time as possible identifying your format, researching and analyzing that format, and getting good at storytelling through that. And if you do that, you could probably scale faster than I can. Like I know somebody, I think a friend of mine used the man on the street format for photography and he had already been successful on TikTok, but he took those videos onto YouTube. Alex. Alex Stemp. Yeah. Yeah. So he built an audience of 20 million people. I think he - Did it really quickly. Yeah. So he's a good friend and we've done some work with him.
47:46but when youtube shorts first came out i think he generated a million subscribers in youtube shorts using his pre-existing content of that in like 10 or 14 days it was something crazy well when mark tilbury when back in the clubhouse days he did this format where he'd put like a wig on or something and two characters one light bulb we call it yeah two what's it called we call it two characters one light bulb so to explain to everybody you play two different characters yeah and because then everyone was copying him but of course he wasn't the first to do it although I would like to say he was. But yeah, that character blew him up.
48:15Yeah. And then once he'd blown up on one platform, which was TikTok, he was able to convert that over to YouTube. Well, I wouldn't say he converted it to YouTube. He used the content on YouTube that drove the audience. Yeah, but I saw both him and Simon do it, whereby they got really big on TikTok and they were driving the traffic to YouTube. They were using it to grow. It's a small percentage of the growth. The content has to carry the weight. Right, okay, yeah. But you know what? When was the first time that that two characters, one light bulb format was used? 1400 BC. 1920s by a comedian, Buster Keaton.
48:51Right. But you know who did it that most people will know is Mike Myers in Austin Powers. Yeah, yeah, he did. Where he played Austin Powers in Dr. Evil. Yeah. So again, it's history repeating itself. People like to think that social media is this brand new thing. Yeah. But it's just pure storytelling. So in addition to mastering one format, what else can we do to grow as a creator or leveraging social media? I would say it's interesting. I would say kind of a little bit what we talked about is understanding human behavior, understanding, you know, communication and connection. Because why do people buy into creators is because they feel some type of connection to them.
49:33so I'll give you an example is when I was first starting on social media was like it was like 2007 2008 there was like an article in Variety magazine that came out where they polled teenagers of who their favorite celebrity was and like four or five of the top ones were youtubers at the time above like Leonardo DiCaprio Robert Downey Jr. Why because there's a big difference between when you watch somebody on film and a passive experience versus when you're watching somebody on social media where it feels more active, it feels more intimate. One of the biggest mistakes - You feel more connected to them.
50:09Yeah. And this is, so I worked with Taylor Swift very early on in her career. And one of the things that is the reason for her success, and it's not because of anybody else, it's because of her, is she realized that social media is a one-to-one platform. People think it's a one-to-many, but it's one-to-one. So you think about when we are consuming social media, we're on the train, we're on the bus we're on the couch we're not sitting in a stadium we're not sitting in a movie theater so the more that you can understand how to communicate and connect with that single individual on the other side of the screen and realize you're not speaking to a stadium you're not speaking to millions of people but you're connecting to one person you're building that relationship with them that's when things really start to break through yeah yeah because i remember when i launched my podcast it was really weird because people would come up to me and say Rob I feel like I know you because they'd consume 10 or 20 or 30 hours of listening to me through their own choice as opposed to being slammed an ad and it completely makes sense to me now why people connect more with creators than they do movie stars yeah because you know movie stars are but it's very distant you don't feel like you know a movie star you feel like you know a creator but also the the way that this format is set up and only when it's successful if you and you're successful with it it feels like you're in the room listening into a conversation it feels like you're there the podcasts that are not successful it just feels like an interview yes this is what makes joe rogan so successful is like it feels like you're literally in the room with him the same thing with this it feels like you're in the room with you that's why they have that deep connection with you it's not just the amount of hours they spend with you which is a contributing factor but it's the environment it's the experience that you create within this format that allows that to happen.
52:00Thank you. How important is attention? You know, they used to say a few years ago, it's the attention economy. How important is it? It's everything. Okay. So should we go and create a criminal offense in order to get attention? No, I said attention is everything. How you get attention, there's different ways that you can get attention. And we've talked in depth about this. There's, I lean toward doing the positive ways of capturing attention, choosing formats where you're spreading positivity, you're motivating, you're connecting with people. You're not, you know, using clickbait or negative negativity on purpose in order to manipulate them.
52:39But attention is everything because no matter what business, no matter what industry you're in, if you're not gaining the attention, your competitors are. Yeah. And you will just ultimately lose to that. And I'm assuming that's why you're doing all these podcasts while you're taking 94 takes and pulling your hair out. 93? Okay, well, we're going to do one more after this. No, we're not. That would break me. Yeah. So what you're saying is attention is everything, but you're not saying that all publicity is good publicity. Correct. Yeah, and I agree with that because they used to say that, didn't they?
53:15Yeah. But I don't think Prince Andrew would think that all publicity is good publicity. But attention is everything. I kind of the analogy for me because I used to be an artist is it's like being an artist but no one's seeing your work. Are you really an artist? Yep. And surely a part of artists being an artist is great marketing. So you can get as many people as possible seeing your art. And if that means making a controversial unmade bed and defecating in it or cutting up a shark and putting it in a tank for people to go, that's not art. Oh, yes, it is. Oh, no, it isn't. That's a part of the art.
53:51So I would say that attention is part of the art. Yeah, I mean, you look at 1 ,000 % is look at Banksy. Banksy's not the most talented artist ever. He does stencils. Yeah, he does stencils. But he mastered the art of mastering attention plus his art. And that is what made him one of the most famous artists ever. And the mystery. He added the mystery. Which is a part of the attention. Yeah. It's part of the campaign. Right. But even like on a smaller scale, let's just say that you're working within a corporation. Like if you don't have the attention of the higher ups and somebody else does that's less talented, how are you ever going to rise above the ranks?
54:30So when we talk about attention, it doesn't have to be millions or tens of millions of people. And people ask me this all the time, what is virality? Like what is going viral? To me, it's not about a number. It's about the impact that you're having with your goals and your business. Yeah, isn't it relativity? Yes, because like some people, and I'm sure you see this, some people have millions of followers and are making 100 ,000 years and there's some people with 100 ,000 followers that are making$10 million a year. It's what is the foundation? How are you leveraging the attention that you get into something bigger?
55:02And that's what most people think. And one of the things that drives me crazy is when people hear the word viral and this is not their fault, is that they've just been trained to think that virality is I have to do a silly TikTok dance video. I have to jump off a roof. And I have to get 10 million views. Yeah. Yeah. When in reality is anything goes viral. Taxes go viral. Insurance goes viral. Warranties goes viral. Real estate goes viral. Any subject matter, any niche can break through and drive results for your business without changing who you are, without being somebody else, without having to do something that's not connected to who you are.
55:39It's just, again, it comes down to the way that you tell the story that makes what you do interesting to the general population. Should you in any instance ever run ads or buy followers on social media? No. You shouldn't. You shouldn't never buy fake followers, bots, or any of those things. What happens is if you buy followers, that means that you don't know how to create content that's going to connect and break through. And as we've mentioned, when I first started in social media back in 2005, it was, you get somebody to follow you, they see your content. Today, there's no free wins. Just because somebody subscribes, somebody follows your account, doesn't mean they're going to see your content.
56:23Some people will buy followers because they want to get exposure on a podcast, on a stage, or things of that nature. I don't recommend buying it, but if you're going to leverage it for something bigger and you just have the understanding your content's not going to break through, then that's a consideration you can have, but I don't recommend it. What I would recommend is just spend the time to get good as a storyteller, Because again, all the followers in the world are not going to mean anything if you don't know how to tell stories that break through, if you don't know how to connect. And then what about you create content on platforms and then you like run ads to them or you boost them?
56:59Because there's those features, isn't there? So I would never run an ad on an underperforming post. What I do sometimes recommend with certain clients is if, let's say you get a video that gets 500 ,000 views, a million views, 10 million views, and it's driving leads for your business. You're seeing tangible results and the video plateaus. Then you can put paid ads behind it to continue that growth if it's driving the business results for who you are. So that practice can work extremely well if you're doing it behind content that's already proven to work. Because all ads do, all boosting does is skip the line in the algorithm.
57:40It doesn't force people to stop and watch it. Yeah, okay. Yeah, that's interesting. But paid advertising is a very, very powerful tool if it's leveraged right. Yeah, okay. And let's say you wanted to start today and maybe make 10 grand a month and maybe on like 10 hours a week as a creator on social media. What would you do? For me and my business, you probably have a different expertise and background. I would just create a service based business, like consult in some way, create a consulting program, teach people an expertise that you've accumulated. Because, again, like ten thousand dollars a month is not a difficult number to hit.
58:17No, well, it's one consultation client a month if you charge 10 grand for your consultancy. Yeah. And you could generate those leads on LinkedIn. Yeah, 100%. And then from there, you can build upon. That's the, from my experience, and I'm not saying it's the end of the end. I'm asking you. It's the easiest way to hit$10 ,000 a month is find something you're an expert in. And it doesn't mean you have to be the best expert in the world because we're talking about$10 ,000 a month. You don't need a lot of people to pay you money to make that money. but something that you are an expert in or something that you can become an expert in and start creating content around that and lead that attention into some type of consulting or service-based offer.
58:57Yeah. And actually that's a lot easier than monetization on social media. You know, at the moment on Facebook, I'm getting maybe 70 to 90 million views a month. And that makes maybe$11 ,000 a month. That's surprisingly low. Whereas I could make$11 ,000 from one post driving traffic to money.school or having someone come to an event. And people often think with social media, it's monetization. But the best thing is it lead generates for your business. That's what you're saying. So the way that I look at social media is social media isn't the business. Social media is the growth for your business.
59:35Can you monetize, like you said, to make money off social media, you can, but it's, it's pennies on the dollar of building a business off the attention off the back of it. And the numbers have to be so big for it to make any type of financial sense. Yeah. So I've never asked this question on my podcast before. But is there anything I haven't asked you that I should, or is there anything, a subject matter that you want to discuss while you're here? I think the big thing that I want to reinforce, because I saw the frustration that you had, and I've had this frustration myself, is you do not, I just implore people, don't do something because it drives success.
1:00:19Do something because it feels authentic to who you are, and you're going to enjoy at some level, obviously it's going to be hard, There's hard work involved, but find a way to express the message that you enjoy. Don't try to be somebody else. Don't do something because you saw somebody else go viral with it. Create a format, find a format that connects with you. Again, I feel your energy in this format. You are amazing in this format, in this contract. I don't see you pulling your hair out outside of the frustrations of you talking about creating content in other formats no but the continual acquisition of really good guests and the creating the thumbnails you know i'm going to monaco next week i have to go to dubai this is a full-time job yes but you enjoy 12 companies or something yeah but i can see in this experience i do enjoy it you enjoy the experience i do enjoy and i assume you're doing it because you see the benefits on all the other businesses that you have Yeah, I'm a stubborn bastard.
1:01:24So I'm 1 ,400 episodes in and I'm kind of doing it because I'm 1 ,400 episodes in as well, just like I did 93 takes on a video. Don't really like quitting anything. But you don't think it creates opportunities for you? Oh, this definitely creates opportunities for me, masses of opportunities. 26 billionaires I've interviewed, amazing people I've met. I've done loads of business. However, this is called Disruptors. and I've interviewed Andrew Tate and Bonnie Blue and Nigel Farage and Jordan Peterson and Brendan Cain. And if I'd have gone a bit more in a lane, see what I did there? If I'd gone a bit more in a lane and a bit more in a niche, it probably could have served my business better financially.
1:02:03But aren't you doing that now? How do you mean? You said you're creating different other podcasts. More money. Yeah, yeah. So my new show, well, it's an evolution of an older show called Money. It's called More Money. Yeah, that is a little bit more. honed in yeah and and the people that watch that generally go to money.school and then they generally come to moneymaker summit so yeah i am doing that but now i've got both of the fucking brands to do oh we're launching cars and money in january where i've got to go and meet millionaires and billionaires in their car garages and that's not just going down the road or them coming to the studio that's going to monaco and dubai but i should just do one format well you are doing one format in this context yeah but a lot of again like there's two ways to look at it way number one everything this disruptors is the the tip of the spear of the awareness model for you and you take that awareness model into the sub niche podcast or the other perspective is that's what it is so the other perspective is you can just stop this nobody's forcing you to do it nobody is putting a gun to your head and saying you have to do it but i think you actually enjoy this and i think that there's a lot more opportunity that comes out of this and the frustration is holding you back from and i get it i get frustrated too i'm not like i'm not sitting here and saying that i don't get frustrated i'm not feeling any judgment and even if there was it wouldn't bother me but you've hit on some points like no no i don't have to do this and And actually, we have been thinking about ending this on the 10 year anniversary.
1:03:36Just going like, you know, a boxer wins a world championship and instead of carrying on and becoming a journeyman and becoming a cabbage, just peak and fuck off. We are actually thinking about that, especially if our other brands blow up. I originally designed this brand to be a completely separate brand from all my companies. and that's why I've not really used it other than for the attention and getting hundreds of millions of views a month um post-covid you know my companies were challenged it's another story but they were challenged and you had a million a month overhead and we had 100 staff so we were like we should use this brand and not just have it as you know Rob's whatever thing but we should have it a little bit more honed in towards building the business as well so we had to make a strategic shift because there is a third option just carry on doing it and do what the fuck i want interview who the fuck i want say and do what the fuck i want and there's something to be said for that yeah i mean that's what rogan does like he doesn't care he just interviews he does it because he enjoys doing it and that shows up authentically i guess the paradox is often when you just do it purely often often when you do it purely authentically that is the best way to get to the top let me ask you this it's a bit random but i wanted to talk about it did you watch my andrew tape bonnie blue i watched parts of it yes okay so what did you think about that and how does that link to algorithms and you know that's my most talked about show at the moment um yeah what did you think i mean i think it's number one it's brilliant from a hook perspective to bring two completely polar opposites of perspectives together in the same room.
1:05:24And again, I think that the reason it works is not because it's not just because you have Andrew Tate and Bonnie Blue, because how many times have both of them been interviewed? Thousands of times? Separately, I mean, yeah. Or even just separately, yeah, not together, but you've had success with Andrew Tate that's generated millions of views on its own. So I think that the hook perspective of bringing them together is interesting in and of itself. But again, I think that the reason that it works in the confines of you hosting it on this podcast is not because they're in the room, but the environment that you created to open up that conversation and the questions that you asked is the reason that made it successful.
1:06:08Because I just want to point that out. I think that some people have this false mindset that, oh, if I had Bonnie Blue and Andrew Tate in the room, I would get millions of views on that interview. They wouldn't because they wouldn't know how to manage that, how to create that experience within the confines of what? A format. So that's what I think from a hook perspective, I think it's brilliant. And I think the reason that it worked is one, because you had these two polar opposites coming together, but two, because you executed it in such a way that just built, it built the tension in such a way that kept the retention of what the algorithm was looking for.
1:06:49Right. Yeah, because we had awful issues with demonetization on that. And I don't need the money. I mean, I want the money, but I don't need the money. But worse for me, for the demonetization, is the restriction in views you get. we had all sorts of fuckery with that we we were getting about 35 click through on the thumbnail and anyone who knows anything that you just don't get that yeah you're normally happy with six or seven or eight or whatever so the algorithms do kind of have some control well you have to look at again from a business perspective demonetization comes into play because and i was a part of this so i helped build one of the first advertising companies for true view when it first launched youtube's ad platform and it was the wild west before and i don't know if you remember what happened but youtube was promising brand safety and then people found out there was no brand safety involved like your videos were being you know your ads are being sent seen against terrorist videos and things of that nature so it's one there's a business aspect to it two i realize it sucks.
1:07:58Three, it's a very difficult problem to solve. When you think about the volume of content across these platforms and how they have to protect, not necessarily the audience, but how they have to protect their core business model, which is the brands and advertisers that need to feel safe promoting on it. That's where the demonetization comes in. I can't speak specifically to how demonetization impacts reach, which I'm assuming it makes sense that it would. I don't know. It definitely does. I don't know the ins and outs of it, but it sucks. But at some level, like they're dealing with such a massive scalability problem and they have to protect the underlying core asset of their business.
1:08:41I don't think it's a reason of inhibiting free speech. I'll tell you that. I don't think they're suppressing it because they don't want Andrew Tate and Bonnie Blue to spread their message. So you don't think it's the matrix and all that stuff. Well, living in a simulation, I think that's a whole nother podcast. Maybe that's round two sometime. Yeah, you know what? I don't mind saying this because, you know, in the world of content, when anyone gets demonetized or they think they're shadow banned or deplatformed and they lash out at the platforms, it's their platform. If someone comes into my living room, if their shoes are muddy, I'd like them to take them off.
1:09:15I don't want them to come into my living room and bitch about me and take a piss in the plant pot because it's my living room. And if it's on YouTube, I kind of, it's like, it's YouTube, it's their platform. I can always go to Rumble. I get that. But it did fuck me off as well. Yeah. It hurts. I mean, to your point. Because I took a lot of fucking risk doing that episode. Yeah. But I mean, it paid off and not as, you know, not as much as you would like, but it still was wildly successful. Yeah. And maybe it, maybe it was more successful than I thought. You don't know, do you? and you know you always have because we saw the demonetization we saw what we had to do to try and change it and then we we had to edit it to get it through and then therefore we had to take out some of the stuff that yeah yeah i mean just think of youtube as a big television network that you have access to upload like what would you have to go through to try and get that interview on television it would be a lot worse to get on there and the the reach would be a lot less now I think you bring up a good point.
1:10:1599 % of people that I run across that think they're being shadow banned or not. No, they're not. Their content just isn't right. Yeah. And it's not about them. It's not that their message isn't sexy enough or uninteresting enough. It's the way that they're delivering it that's causing it to fall flat. But I think that there's an over-reliance on this excuse of shadow banning and, oh, it's suppressing my reach on purpose to get me to boost my posts. It's not those things. I'm not going to say it never happens because when we started the conversation there was some of that was happening especially we were talking about covid and vaccines and you know the hunter biden laptop and all those things that have now come out that the u.s government was causing that content to be suppressed but i assume that 99 of people creating content are not creating content around those subject matters yeah yeah so um you want to tell everyone what you do where to follow you uh yeah so i founded a company hook point and we do exactly what we talked about is we match people with their ideal format.
1:11:17And, uh, basically we do all the analysis. We've spent, as I mentioned, 15 ,000 hours analyzing over 500 formats. So we match people with their perfect format. They can learn more about it at hookpoint.com. Um, they can get a free copy of my book, uh, that breaks us all down. If they go to hookpoint.com forward slash disruptors. So for people listening to the podcast, um, and then they can follow me on Instagram at Brendan Kane. They can DM me on Instagram, LinkedIn. I check my DMs and things like that. Okay, so Brendan with an A and Kane with a K. Yeah, B-R-E-N-D-A-N-K-A-N-E. I'd just like to be clear on those things.
1:11:53And then it's hookpoint.com forward slash disruptors. Yeah. I like what you did there. I didn't know you'd done a special offer. That's kind because - And that's like this book - That's a proper book, isn't it? It's not just a - Yeah, no, this book took like three years to write. No, it's not. Yeah. And literally go to Amazon and see, we're actually selling the book. You're getting it for free. It's not like some magical e-book that we just whipped up with ChatGPT. Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. Brendan, thanks for coming on the show. Enjoyed it. Thanks for having me. All right.
1:12:51This episode was brought to you by Disruptive Media, helping bold entrepreneurs stand out through podcasting, video, and social content. Visit disruptivemedia.co.uk to learn more.
1:13:14Thank you.
From the publisher
Ready to disrupt your business and scale your influence through social media? Get started with Brendan's newest books (as a gift) at https://hookpoint.com/disruptors
Rob is joined by Brendan Kane to explore the complexities of social media algorithms, personal branding, and the impact of AI on content creation. They discuss the manipulation of algorithms by governments and platforms, the psychological tactics used to keep users engaged, and the challenges creators face in navigating these systems.
Brendan lays out a stark warning about the importance of storytelling, the potential for personal brands to thrive amidst negativity, and the ethical implications of AI-generated content
BEST MOMENTS
"The algorithm is a mirror of you."
"They are manipulating us to keep us on the platforms longer."
"The reality is these platforms are built and designed to make money."
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🎙 A NOTE FOR THE #DISRUPTORS:
The world is on the edge of a revolution. Wealth, power & information are being disrupted.
Mainstream media is dying. Your freedom is being challenged. Your money is being debased. #Disruptors & Rob Moore asks the questions others dare not to ask. Disruptive & diverse guests speak out on topical world issues & their areas of success & influence. As the world has changed, Disruptors has evolved to diverse global movers, shakers & change makers who stand out & speak up.
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