Gina Miller on Fighting The UK Government, The Truth on Charlie Kirk & Free Speech

29:31And now in our system, what people say is I'm not going to vote for. There's nobody for me to vote for. So what I'm going to do is vote against. So what they do is maybe, we saw it actually in the last election. A lot of people. Everyone was voting against Conservatives. Everyone was voting against, even the Conservatives. Bet they're regretting that now. Yes, they are regretting that. A lot of people are regretting lots of things for lots of reasons, but that's the way people have led votes. So we did it in a way that we actually showed people on a website and through our modelling what was possible, what they could do.

30:03So it was giving them choices. But then after the election, that organisation wanted to take money from Soros and they wanted to go a different direction. And that's why I left, even though I started it, because I was totally against foreign, and I still am. I think it's completely wrong for any foreign money. And I think one of the things that is really weak in our political system here is electoral rules about funding. I mean, the whole thing needs to be completely redone because, you know, there's so many loopholes in the way you can get foreign money into our politics. It shouldn't be happening.

30:38Right now, your personal data is being sold and exploited and probably without you knowing. Every day, countless companies are invading your personal privacy by buying and selling your data for their problems. But the good news is there's a way to opt out of this and this is why I'm excited to partner with Incogni. Because what Incogni do is they work, hustle and force on your behalf in the background to remove all of your personal data from all of these intrusive databases, marketing lists and companies. So to stop the spam and protect your privacy, go right now to incogni.com forward slash disruptors to get an exclusive 60 % discount off an incogni plan.

31:22That's incogni.com forward slash disruptors or click the link in the description. Something I want to get into now, make sure we cover well, is the current state of the UK, the current state of the government and how you think Labour are doing. I don't think Labour are making the right choices. I think that the economy is so important to our country and they don't seem to be able to get a grasp of that. You know, the tax on businesses that they brought in in April is just decimating SMEs. And look at unemployment now. You know, they have no understanding that SMEs are the backbone of our country.

32:00Apparently, it's nearly 60 % of all revenue generated is small business in the UK. It is appalling to what they're doing to small businesses. the fact that they haven't understood that you need to encourage entrepreneurship in this country means they should have increased entrepreneur allowance in my view but there's so many other things but entrepreneurs relief got reduced massively reduced which is ridiculous you know and the fact that you don't understand that we need to have inward investment you know a longer term view the other fact is that you know inward investment you mean from you know our in from our Our people.

32:34From outside the UK has dried up. Yes. Well, everyone's leaving. Well, the people who are here are leaving, but the people who should be investing here are not investing. Right. And not only that, we've got to find ways of actually unlocking the money we do have in this country. And, for example, one of the things, and I've actually written to the government, got absolutely no response at all, is we've got about$3 trillion sitting in pension funds, local authority pension funds. That money should be unlocked. Other countries have said that, for example, 20 % of the equity allocation from pension funds should be in their domestic infrastructure.

33:11That is what we should be doing. We should be using a local authority's pension fund should be unlocked. Have we not, though, not got enough even to fund, you know, the ageing population? You know, but this is money. This is a different pot. Right. This is money that's sitting in investments. OK. OK. So it used to be for traditionally, if I give you an example, actually, this is an example, I think it's absolutely shocking. So the MPs themselves, who are sitting in the House of Commons, the 625, they have a pension pot, okay? It's a big pension pot, because there's a lot of them, and they all put into it.

33:48Traditionally, or in the past, about 23 % of the money in that pension pot was invested in UK companies. Yeah, to help UK companies grow. Now that's between 2 % and 3%. So they themselves don't even have confidence in growing British businesses. Wow. That's crazy. I mean, we haven't got many big companies anymore, have we, or any businesses? But we should be investing in infrastructure projects. We should be investing in a building. A building is a perfect one. OK, housing. Why are we not investing in more housing in companies, startups here that are building new types of styles of fabrication of building?

34:29Not old fashioned building. There are now so many new types of modular building that are being used in other countries. We should have we should be supporting new companies in the UK doing that. There are lots of examples of investments that are needed here in the UK. Research, we should be doing so much more investment in research and making sure, for example, the top universities, we still have top universities, rather than them, for example, in the pharmaceutical, medical research, rather than that money being going to private companies, why is the government not investing in those research, those new companies, those new technologies, and saying, by the way, when you make it, because some will, some won't, rather than that profit, that money going, then 25 % of that comes back to the government.

35:13let's find different ways of getting growing our economy because without our without economic growth we cannot solve the problems we've got in our country it is basic we need money and they do not seem to be able to get a grip of that is that because the five top mps although one of them just resigned angela reina is that because none of them have ever run a business the top five mps in labor you know the people who are in control of this country um have never run a business how did we get there i i've always it's interesting because um and it's a debate and i don't necessarily know the answer but i've wondered about actually whether we should have different rules about mps about when you can stand to be an mp do you have to have 10 years of something else you know rather than going straight from studying pp and then suddenly becoming a professional politician But at least some of them, surely, like people who are managing the economy.

36:08Because isn't a real business the best type of economy? A business is an economy. Well, no, running a business is not the same as running a government. No, it's not, but it's a proper economy. But what you can do, what they could do, because we can't change things overnight and we do need change. But how do we get our economy growing quickly? what they could do is what Singapore for example did is you are the elected politicians but you bring in a layer of technocrats who are advisors to you apolitical forget about how they voted and if they give you money or not but look for the best of the best and put together a panel of technocrats or people isn't that common sense just why can't labor just get a load of great british entrepreneurs to advise but like people like uh sir jim ratcliffe and sir james dyson have left.

36:59Lakshmi Mittal's leaving. One of the good things they've done is Jim O 'Neill apparently is going to come in and do some work with them, which is fantastic. I have a huge amount of respect and he's great and should be there. But, you know, Lord Rose, all these different people who are there. But the same in the NHS, bringing in technocrats. And look, that's how Singapore have actually managed to turn around their country in just over four decades because they've got elected people who are answerable to, politicians article but they've also got technocrats you know if you don't have the experience then listen to advice and what i'm hearing and it really makes me very upset on behalf of not just me but the whole country and for everybody is that i'm hearing that this government is very tiniered and they don't take advice is that just because they don't like entrepreneurship you know you are they just very socialist they just don't like entrepreneurs i don't think they'd like anyone i I can't figure out who they are, what their beliefs are.

37:55Or who they like. And who they like. And the other thing I'm afraid is I do not think that Rachel Reeves should ever have been made chancellor. She doesn't have the qualifications. I mean, I was really, a lot of people came down to me knowing that I was, you know, I didn't want the conservatives to come into government. I thought it was time we had a new government. And actually, weirdly, I would have preferred a coalition. But, you know, that's gone and passed. but one of the things I in the city I kept saying to people nobody in the city has heard of Rachel of the CV that Rachel Reeves was touting and I was told I was a jealous woman you know I'm just jealous because you know look at where she is and I was going no just be logical look at her age look at when she said she got a senior position at the Bank of England work backwards and tell me if it's possible that somebody of that age would have been in a senior position.

38:49So she lied on her CV? Yeah. And I said, look also for the position that she was in. It's now come out that it's not the role she had. And I said... But she's still there. And she's still there. Starmer is a weak. He should have got rid of Rachel Reeves. But he'd have no one left. Well, I'm just saying, but chancellorship is such an important job. It's so important that we have somebody who understands how the economy works and actually understands that the fiscal rules of the past are not the fiscal rules that we can have at the present and going forwards. And for the economies and the changes that we're seeing coming in business, in society, in our social needs.

39:27But also, it's not just this government, though. I would say the real damage to the country and where we are now started after the financial crisis. because those politicians who came in then, you know, inflation was near zero. We had the fiscal space. Osborne famously said he was going to, you know, fix roofs when the sun was shining. And they never did that. So you go back. I mean, now we're suffering from almost, you know, two, three decades of dereliction of duty and poor political choices. So the mess we're in, it's not going to happen. It's fixed overnight. But again, I would love to see politicians stand up and say that and explain that to people.

40:07But that's like turkeys voting for Christmas, isn't it? Like anyone in Labour going, oh, everything's wrong. Why then? They're not going to do that. But they need to explain why we got to where we got to. Well, they do. They just blame them for the black hole. No, no, no. They're just 14 years. It's much longer than 14 years. And it's also they have to explain they have to explain what it is that they're going to do to fix the things that are broken. And I don't think they've come there. Well, they don't even know. They've just delayed the budget, which tells you they don't know what to do. I mean, OK, from delaying the budget, the one thing the markets and we do not like as investors is uncertainty.

40:45And what you've done is just pushed uncertainty. But as late as you can. And also what you've done. I mean, they don't seem to have any political now. They've also pushed it so it'll be close to when the next rise in winter fuel will be as we go into the coldest months of the years. I mean, the timing of it makes no sense at all. But it says to me that they don't know what to do. So they're pushing it out as far. But the sense, the combination of a lack of political nows, a lack of a plan, because I do think they, I just can't see a plan like everybody else. and not delivering on what people wanted, which was, I think Starmer would have, I think he's actually, you know, really walking on very thin ice at the moment.

41:30And I doubt he will be there. And I think if they've got any sense, he will go. They'll get rid of him. Because people voted knowing he was supposedly a manager and was boring. People could cope with boring if they, you know, we had enough chaos. You know, in a way we wanted that. But if you then don't have the charisma and you're making all these bad choices, be it from the winter fuel allowance for me, I mean, I really fought and got involved in the whole changes they were making to PIP because they couldn't understand what the heck they were doing. Yes, it needs reforming and looking at, but they were going to take it away from people.

42:06And then the other thing they were going to say is that people have to, like my daughter, who, as I said, has a mental age of about five, to qualify for that, she'd have to work X number of hours a week. well she can't work so you can tell people who can't work or are vulnerable or ill or disabled they were then going to say have to be able to go and go and get into work you know this whole idea you have to get into work if you're disabled well not everybody who's disabled can work those who can are trying really desperately to find a job but that's a different issue but then on the other hand you've got so many people who are claiming benefits who are just saying I'm mentally ill and suicidal thoughts.

42:48Okay so that's one of the things so the PIP bill went up massively it did increase hugely and one of the reasons for that is because if you've been out of work for over a year yeah you can claim PIP so all the waiting lists for the NHS and all the people are waiting on there for who are waiting to see somebody for their mental health illness or for depression whatever then can go on so you have to so it's not no problem in one department sits in isolation they're all connected so you have to tackle the waiting list you have to tackle how people are looking at depression what is depression because it's some is one of the bugbears i have and i i mean i tell my daughter this you know when she was young and came home from school and did this thing called psc lesson and came home and started using the word depressed if she was upset about something and I said to her you're not depressed you're sad and you're upset and you're disappointed because so and so just fell out with you and said you didn't get your grade stop using the word depressed you're not depressed so we've got to think very carefully it's great that we are much more able to talk about our emotions and our and the way we're feeling and our vulnerability but it's going you have to be very careful that you then don't say people then don't use that to mask other things.

44:07It's complicated, but yes, we have to look, we don't have enough, we don't look at the causes of depression. So everything is, you know, the child is drowning down the river, is down the stream drowning, so we keep pulling the children out. But we never go upstream to figure out why they're jumping in the first place. Yeah, I mean, I did about three weeks of walking around the city of Peterborough, interviewing homeless people, other people as well, but there's quite a few homeless people there. There are. And I just went straight to the point and said, why don't you get a job? And in every instance that I can recall, why would I get a job?

44:47Because I get more claiming on benefits. I get a house. Well, sleeping on the streets, they don't. So people on the streets, you mean? People on the streets. Yeah. Many of them who are on the streets actually have accommodation paid by the government. and they're begging and getting$100 to$200 a day and just moving around the place and getting away with it. And they said they would lose money. They would earn less working than they're getting on benefits. If you earn minimum wage, you net about$2 ,500 less than if you were claiming benefits. Well, that's those people who are exploiting the benefit system.

45:25That's exactly what we should be tying up on. Yeah, the system is wrong. The system is wrong. But so think of it. OK, we need money. OK, so you tighten up that. That's wrong. You should be actually there should be patrols out there going out, making sure that people report into it. Then you've got all the people, this whole industry helping people avoid tax. OK, in my opinion, you should close all the tax avoidance schemes that, you know, think of all the money there. Well, if you close all the tax avoidance schemes, but you're taxing everyone two thirds on what they earn and what they spend, then everyone will leave.

45:55Oh, oh, oh. Everyone will leave. No, no, no. The tax scheme needs to be the tax simplicity. We need to completely... Yeah. They need to change taxes. What I'm saying is just some easy wins. You say, what would I say to the government? What I'd say to the government is invest more money in HMRC to, A, collect the tax gap, those people who should be paying tax or not, because it's significant. Are you talking about the billionaires and people like that? I'm talking about billionaires. I'm talking... We haven't got to businesses yet, but billionaires, all the tax avoidance schemes, all the people...

46:26But no one would avoid tax if it wasn't 20 % VAT, 25 % corp tax, 45 %... No, no, hang on, hang on. I'm talking at the moment. So the stats are for every pound you invest in HMRC, you'd get£3 back. OK, so that is the stats. So why are we not investing more into HMRC? To close the tax gap, to make sure the people who are using these avoidance schemes are not using them. On the benefit side, rather than having all these people sitting in benefit offices, Why are they not going out, then checking the people who are cheating the system, closing those gaps? And then when you come to corporates, look at all these businesses who are headquartered abroad, making billions in the UK, but not paying any taxes.

47:08We should have an online tax of about 10%. If you did that tomorrow, if you brought in an online tax for all those companies who are here, you mentioned Google, Google, Microsoft, Amazon, all the companies who are not paying tax in the UK. if you tax their profit they're making in the UK and you could do it from credit card transactions easily tomorrow So why don't they then? A 10 % tax alone would bring in about£25.8 billion Why don't they do it then? Why? I have no answer to that question Because wouldn't it also be quite popular to tax the billionaire for labour? No, no, but the companies I'm talking about the companies If you did that, the multinationals and the global companies.

47:52Don't ask me why. I have never understood why they don't do that. So then what they do is they go for the small business owner. No, no. One of the things is the lobbying. The strength of lobbying in government, that's one of the things. I mean, we haven't got onto the things that need reforming in our democratic infrastructure is fundamentally defunct and broken and not fit for purpose. And all of it needs to be changed. So when you say lobbying, are you saying they're getting donations from these companies? No, no, no, the lobbying that comes in. For example, you know, Nick Clegg, who's back now, Sir Clegg, who's now going on about, you know, popping up everywhere.

48:31Excuse me, but you were earning how much? How many millions did you earn at Meta? Lobbying the government on the not to bring in the online safety, some aspects of it. I mean, there are issues with the online safety bill. But, you know, who was it that was lobbying the government heavily not to bring in that, not to bring in taxes? is not these guys who's lobbying the government that lobbying register is there it's a joke i mean you know the the what the revolving doors are going on in government they're lobbying all of that needs cleaning up okay i want to come back to tax because this is fast this fascinates me um currently vat is 20 corporation tax is 25 income tax is obviously staged but really it's 40 % plus if you earn kind of any half decent money now.

49:16The threshold for earning money is so low in the UK to get into the higher tax brackets. You've got 15 % national insurance as the employer. You've got employees' national insurance. You've got business rates, which are really penal for any small business as a startup. You've got pension contributions. And then once you've earned the money, you're paying VAT on everything that you buy and all these different duties and taxes and blah blah blah and you're saying they should shut these tax avoidance schemes people wouldn't avoid tax if they weren't paying so much tax they pay everyone's paying too much tax no no but the ordinary person or even not even ordinary the person who are sort of earning you know to a certain level doesn't have the money to pay the experts to do the tax avoidance and if you're employed you can't anyway no no no so you're talking so you're talking about big I'm talking the big individuals who can afford the advisors to set up the offshore trusts and all the rest of it.

50:10And all that business. I mean, in the city that I work in, there's a whole industry of lawyers and experts helping people in tax avoidance schemes. I mean, a whole lot of them should be cleaned out. I mean, London, everyone around the world. London is called London grad for a reason. We're literally the money laundering tax avoidance capital of the world. and that and and that has some merit if you're bringing in all the billionaires and the economy and the finance and the investment yeah but now we've sent them all away no no if if you know why do you want to be in britain britain is the most extraordinary place to live was culturally hang on culturally still is culturally our arts our music our um restaurants are going around the country you know places to visit oh that's dying we haven't produced an oasis since forever no no no no no but what i'm saying is people still want to come here yeah when they come here to enjoy all of that then they should be paying their fair share of tax yeah yeah yeah but we've got to lure them in here yeah yeah but we don't do that in the first place we don't do that we don't allow them to you know we we have let them get away with not paying tax for ages i mean my view on the non-doms was that actually what we should have done is we do a stage system on the non-doms if you've been here for seven years and you pay X amount if you're 10, if you're 15.

51:29So you don't just suddenly whack a massive great big tax on them because then they all leave. And the idea that they haven't, actually, I can tell you on a daily basis, I speak to people who are leaving, thinking of leaving. Me too. Other countries who are doing very clever schemes to attract them. Like Dubai. Dubai, Portugal. Yeah, golden visas. Yeah, yeah, all the golden visas things. And now I've heard a new one, which I actually didn't know about. is because of all the rumours of what they're going to do on an inheritance tax. I didn't realise Australia doesn't have inheritance tax. Nor does Dubai.

52:05So what people are doing, if you think about how many people here have relatives in Australia rather than Dubai, there are people, you'd have to trust your relatives on this one, but I'm hearing of people who are thinking of giving their money to their relatives in Australia. Wow. And then using it from there. How many more things can this government do to send money away? Yeah, that's what really, really worries me. I mean, it's economy stupid, and they haven't got a grip on that. They have not got a grip on that. And the elements of, you know, what I can see as bringing in policies based on jealousy, and it's just not going to help us.

52:45It's just not. And it's probably one of the ills of our politics. And it's not just the UK. It's the whole world. where we've got to is politics has become like marketing. It's basically, you know, it's all slogans and the three words and the what can you do this week? And what can how many times can you say deliver in one conversation, one interview, 40 times, say the word deliver, deliver, deliver. You know, everything is a soundbite. Yeah, we don't you know, I went back the other day. I was fascinated, actually, when I was going through my chemo and I had lots of time because I couldn't, you know, I've been sort of like housebound for nearly a year.

53:17and I read back I went back and out of curiosity read some of the debates in parliament from I was never Thatcherite but of that period and then before that and the quality of debate in parliament was something to behold when you compare it with what we have now it's a whole different elevation in intelligence and I think that's what's so so sad that we've lost that And then what's your stance on immigration? I think we absolutely should be controlling our borders. Because I was on the Remain side in the debate when we had the referendum for different reasons. And I kept saying, if we leave, immigration will go up.

54:02There's absolutely, it was an absolute, you know. But I kept saying to the other side, you have to be honest about this, that legal and illegal immigration is going to go up. And by the way, legal immigration is going to go through the roof. it was obvious that that was going to happen because you know when you have um when you've suddenly you've shut the door on one um group of people who are coming in to work and pay in the country and what they're doing is not bringing their family and relatives because they're just two hours away and they can go home and see them or they can you know it was another problem if you had one person coming in to do a job and now you have you're bringing in someone to do a job who because you're bringing them so far away, they can then bring their family.

54:45If you got three or four people compared to the one that was coming in, of course it was going to go through the roof. And it was just so obvious. But and then leaving the Dublin agreement was we never replaced it. I mean, Boris Johnson never. We could have done a negotiation on a similar agreement. He never did. He didn't really quite understand it. So there was always going to be a problem. My view is we are not investing enough. Again, the government say they haven't got money, but I'm sorry, they should be investing in processing. It is disgusting how long it takes to process somebody who comes to this country.

55:22When they're here, process quicker, then start. If they can stay, they stay and they start working and they start paying taxes and contributing. It's not that difficult to do. And the other thing is more legal rules. So think about this. We have embassies around the world. old Peter Mandelson thing. We have embassies around the world still. Why do we not have border personnel in our embassies who can do processing in other countries before people even get here? Why is everything done here? It used to be years ago that you could go to your local embassy and if you provided and you had to provide all this stuff and And if you qualified, you qualified.

56:05They did a lot of the paperwork there rather than coming here. Does that sound more logical? Yeah. What exactly are embassy staff doing? Because they're pretty big, lavish buildings. And, you know, why are we not using those more? There are other, we've got to think differently. And then I got absolutely, again, shot down in flames last summer because one of the things I suggested was that to speed up the processing is that for the first level, you know, the checking paperwork, all the rest of it. Just think about if you offered, put out there to university final year students and say who are studying politics or PPE or whatever it is they're studying and said for summer, we'll pay you summer jobs.

56:48We'll pay, I don't know, 600 of you, however many of you to come in and do the first level. You're clever. You can use it to computers. You do the first slot of processing. and you worked out on 600, they'd have got through about 70 ,000 applicants.

57:08We're paying them student fee, we're paying them student loans and all the rest of it. Why don't we use them?

57:17Innovative thinking is what we need. Well, we haven't got any innovative thinkers who are running this country by the look of the top five MPs in Labour. But we, this whole idea of a reset, I can't see how it's going to happen. I mean, I think the whole reset and the whole reform and the whole change in the system, like I said before, is Turkey's voting for Christmas. Why? What? There's 548 ,000 civil servants, 100 ,000 more since lockdown. Why are they going to vote for a change in that system? I accept that. And, you know, all the things I'd like to see, like, you know, the reforms in the House of Lords, no second jobs.

57:54I mean, this whole thing about second jobs, second homes, no, none of that. And when you leave two years, you should not be able to go into the industry that you were regulating. All this stuff should be brought in. But they're never going to vote. But weirdly, so they say they're never going to vote for them. Do you know most of this stuff already exists in the US? So in the US, when you leave, you can't go and work in other jobs. You can't have a second job. And there are really strict rules. and they have a code of ethics. It's not a code. It's actually law. They have a law about how people in public office have to work, yeah?

58:32And it's not perfect. Obviously, there are lots of people who get it wrong and there are lots of corruption still, but at least they've got something they're working on and the FBI calls in and you see them carrying out boxes of people who don't do things right. Have you ever seen that happen over here? You don't see that sort of thing happening over here. But you say Turkey's Christmas, But surely now, I don't care which party you're from, surely they can see that the trust in people, in politicians of any colour and the system and structure is so broken that unless they do something, there is not going to be any Christmas for them.

59:07I agree. Literally, there's no clue. I agree. I mean, surely they've got to come to their senses and realise that. But nothing is happening. I don't see one thing happening. For me, the biggest disappointments in this Labour government are, A, that they haven't brought in the reforms into the political system they should have, or could have started straight away to bring in new rules and ethics rules in both houses and the elections, how elections are run, and the fact that they haven't got to grips with the economy. I think those two failings are unforgivable, actually. Do you think a revolution is coming in this country?

59:45It isn't the British psyche to really... As a people, I know, again, I go back to Brexit. I remember being told nobody will vote for Brexit because that's not... Brits don't do that. We don't take chances. Actually, that national psyche is changing. So when people like Andrew Tate set up a political party, when people like Tommy and Robinson get very involved in a political party and you start to see these very right-leaning parties starting to form, Is that not an indication when people get imprisoned for social media posts? Well, if you look back at the black shirts and what happened in that movement in the 50s, the reaction from the mainstream politicians, they stepped up.

1:00:31And that's why it didn't work. What worries me is that I can't see the mainstream politicians stepping up. So, you know, what happened was that the threat of the right made them wake up. they're still navel gazing they literally haven't figured out what's going on it's like they're headless you know you carry on your turkey analogy they're headless chickens rather than turkeys they're running around they don't seem to know what happens um they're not connecting with people obviously the biggest change is social media because you know social media brings the whole different dimension to how quick everything messaging is moving you know the whole thing about a lie gets around the world before you pull your boots on well with social media and technology and bots and algorithms, that's now a whole different.

1:01:15So I do think that, you know, the coding is there for chaos. Coding for chaos is happening at a speed that we haven't even got to grips with yet. And I think the politicians are so far behind that. And what, again, when we go back to what I said about technocrats, well, why are they not calling in people who actually understand more about some of the academics that are from places like LSE, some of the institutes, what's going on at Cambridge and how they're understanding how social media is working how the algorithms are working and actually addressing these things but they're not they're just sitting there because i would hypothesize that a big part of the problem are the algorithms on social media and yeah people are rewarded the more rage and you know the more divisive you are the more polarizing you are you are rewarded with views and shares and follows on social media.

1:02:10So it's very interesting if you look at the algorithms, because I was involved in lobbying for the and I did do some work and input into the online safety bill. I mean, what we have at the moment, unfortunately, is like tissue paper, toilet paper is not fit for purpose. And he's completely redoing. But one of the things that is shocking about the algorithms when you look into them and analyze them is the algorithms are telling young men and young boys to harm others or harm other things from animals to places to property to people and the algorithms pain aimed at girls and women are actually telling them to harm themselves and devalue themselves it's a really big difference in the way the algorithms are working and it you know that that is creating so much um if you like angst and anger and and what it's doing to young people's psyche is poisoning them i mean and again other countries are acting it'll be very interesting to see what happens because it's about to start in australia they brought in their rules about no under 16s having access to social media brazil have brought in a rule china obviously have their own rules anyway new zealand's brought them in um you know know, other countries are doing this.

1:03:24I think it's about 23 countries around the world are looking at this and are doing something now. We are still shaking hands with, you know, I call him Zuckerberg because he's like a burger to me. But, you know, we are still, you know, topping our cap to all these people who basically, you know, look at Emetta. It started off as a platform to get a girlfriend. I mean, you know, it is that ridiculous. So we are not actually taking this more seriously. Do you think reform will get in at the next election? And what do you think of reform and Nigel Farage? I think there's a danger that they may get in.

1:04:06And what I think is very clever, I mean, there is no doubting he's a clever man, is the way they've changed the language already. Language is incredibly powerful. And what you put in somebody's mind, he's now changed from saying if to when I'm going to be prime minister. And so and the media are allowing that because actually the polls that are coming out saying the polls are wrong. The polls are coming out saying if there is an election tomorrow, this is where reform, you know, is right, because there isn't election tomorrow. No. And people are not making up their mind. You're asking them a hypothetical question and giving you a hypothetical answer.

1:04:45So the polls are not, in my view, I never take any note of the polls this far out. Anything can happen. Yeah. Mr. Farage is incredibly charismatic. He's probably one of the best speakers, communicators that there is out there. But I cannot see that there is any policy integrity in what they're saying. So they are a propaganda party living off. It's a type of emotional exploitation because people are hurting for legitimate reasons because we have so many problems. But you should not be. It's when somebody is down on the floor. you should not be kicking them when they're down on the floor to make them feel more angry so that they get up and hit somebody else and that's what I can see that manipulation of what is so of people feeling the effects of what's so broken in our country is not to my mind good politics I agree weirdly with a couple of the policies they are they are coming up with for example in my sector you know the reforms they're proposing on banks for example I do think oh it's right I haven't got a problem with that at all and there's a couple of I can't remember what it was the other day they said as well I was like oh yes and Richard Tice has also come out and said the local authority pension funds need to be reformed I agree with that so you know there's a couple of things I do agree with but I think the way they are going if they are successful because it's leave all over again if they are successful in coming to government based on their present track record and what they're saying, you're just replacing people who are not competent with another lot of people who are not competent, but in a different manner.

1:06:36So what you're saying then, because you said the danger right at the start of what you said, so I'm assuming that means you don't think, you don't want reform to be in. So therefore, are you saying they would be worse than Labour? I think they would be worse than Labour. Is that possible? No, no, no, no, no. I'll conclude that sentence. Because Labour is a party that has a, it does have, it is a party, infrastructure, members, councillors, it's a party that has a track record and has experience of how to run a country. Well, it's a party, yeah, but not the current people. But reform do not have...

1:07:18Yeah, but that's the thing. You see, what I would love to see is the Labour Party actually have a complete restructuring of the people leading the party. Because I do think there are good people in Labour, but they're not there. No, and also, if that happens when they're in government, how can they run the government? It's a bit like if you lost all your staff and had to replace all your staff in your business. Well, no, no, but it could start with leadership. It starts with leadership. I do not believe that Keir Starmer... See, one of the reasons I think there is a possibility of reform coming into government is not, is, you know, look what happened in America, is the charisma of Nigel Farage, because I do think it's Farage.

1:07:57But also some kind of policies for business, entrepreneurs, small business owners. There's some policies, but the average person doesn't normally vote for those sorts of things. I mean, there's a group of people who vote for those, but the average voter doesn't vote for that. but the feeling why I think two reasons or three reasons why I think they are why I think they could win the next election one is we still have this they're all the same they're all the same they're all and you know look at this Mandelson debacle they're all the same they're all in it together so let's go for someone who's completely new which is kind of true which is kind of true so I'm saying I can see that but Labour got in because Conservatives were rubbish not because they were great yeah exactly and then so I'm saying the second thing is as a country people vote against others rather than for something.

1:08:43So that psyche of voting against rather for, I can then see them coming in. And then the other one is that, well, if they come in and they're good, it's only five years, let's give it. It's that five-year cycle. I've been here, I've heard people, from people from all walks of life starting to say that. Wow. You know, if they're that bad, you know, it's five years. And five years is a long time. Well, five years is a long time. So how... And if the economy is rubbish, and tax is high and inflation is high and unemployment is high. Well, I think weirdly, weirdly, I think they would bring down taxes.

1:09:16So they would bring down taxes and there would be inward investment from a certain type of investor, I think they would end up bringing. But then do we want that sort of money in the UK? That's a whole different argument about what sort of money, you know, what sort of investors... Well, Mother Teresa took money off Robert Maxwell. Yeah, yeah, I was going to say, it depends. It's like, don't we need money? Yeah, we need money and we need growth and we need, you know, you know, which evil you're going to choose, almost, it's which evil you're going to choose. But I mean, I don't know if you know this, but I stood in the last election and I learned to my cost that I'm going around on doorsteps.

1:09:51I stood in Epsom. I didn't win. I didn't come anywhere near close winning. And I deliberately, we put together a manifesto based on solutions, technical solutions. We put together boards of experts to come up with policy in every area that we put policies forward for. we didn't denigrate any of the opposition it was a positive campaign that's why you didn't get in because everyone was going love what you've written here but we can't let those conservatives in that was the only thing I kept hearing over and over again we can't let Boris back in we can't let them back in because there was a rumour that Boris was going to come back if they'd won and kick me over from whatever was going to happen anyway but that was it over and over again that's all we heard so a couple more questions and thank you for being so open by the way that's all right um gary stevenson's risen in popularity saying we should tax the rich more what do you think i in that manifesto i wrote i advocated for a extra one percent for those who have over 10 million of assets excluding their home so i am in favor of that um and i know this argument how are you How would that be measured, policed?

1:11:10Okay, so how's he can do it? Someone worth 10 million might have most of that in real estate or most of that in a company. Exactly, exactly. So what you look at is what are they earning? Is there earnings that year? The rich are already taxed the most. The top 1 % pay the top 20 % of tax. Yeah, that's right. The top 10 pay the top 69%. Yeah, but the fact is we need money at the moment. and so what I was going to say is I'd bring in, it's not popular and I would do it, I believe in So basically wealth tax So a mega wealth tax for a parliament A mega wealth tax for a parliament which is an extra 1 % I would definitely have brought that in I would put up corporation tax for certain companies of a certain size mega companies by 2 % and I would shut all the online businesses who don't pay tax, I would actually get rid of business rates and I put a business rate because it's unfair because it's a bricks and mortar companies are paying and then so what you and startups are paying a huge amount of tax get rid of business rates and actually put a profit tax you pay on money you make in the UK you pay 10 % on that yeah all companies yeah I wish people would be more articulate more clear like you are because everyone just says tax the rich but then people who earn 100 grand apparently rich but they're not but i like this mega rich yeah because for example okay me okay i've never we have never as a family we don't have any offshore investments no trusts overseas i am happy to pay all my taxes because i want this country to work i want it to work for me for my children i want to feel safe when I go down the road.

1:12:55But it must be annoying you at the moment, though. The police are not in a good state. The NHS is not in a good state. Nothing's in a good state. So at the moment, you know, I'm giving... The contract I have with the government, with the politicians... They're not delivering. ...is I will pay all my taxes. I will pay all of it, you know, in total about 50%. So every pound I'm earning, 50p, is going to you to look after the country and those who are vulnerable and those who cannot look after themselves. I'm very happy. And you know what? If I try and avoid that and there's a loophole, come and get me because I should be paying that.

1:13:28I should be paying that 50%. If. But now I'm thinking, but hang on a minute, how much of that are you wasting? Yeah. How much of that are you now putting in ridiculous things that have no strategy you don't understand? So that's where people get upset. And I know this thing the commentators say to this organization called Patriotic Millionaires, well, you know, you can volunteer to pay more tax. Yeah, you can. it's not easy though and HMRC are not happy to take you if you use more tax so what I do instead and I have to say I'm a great one you know I talked about history I'm a great admirer of the Victorian philanthropists and I think we should go back and take you know the people then when the country was failing when dishonesty was no longer abominable in Victorian times it was people like the Cadbury's and the, you know, the Quakers, who were the Barclays, all of these incredible people, the Barnardo's, the Coots, who all stepped in because there was no government for their support.

1:14:30They were the ones who gave their money to make sure, the clerks, they built up society. I would encourage all entrepreneurs to do that now. Well, I think they would and I think they want to, but I don't think they have trust in this country. So what you do is at community level, because at least then you can see what you're doing. Because I tell you one thing, the country is so broken. My view is very strong on this. And I'm absolutely adamant. I tell everybody this. When something is so broken at the top level and the top level is going to change, it's got to come in community level. You know what?

1:15:01You can all get together in the community and go and find out why those kids down the road are causing chaos all the time. You could start a boxing club. You could all put in a bit of money. Gales, you know, Gail's what? You're earning loads of profit. You could open after you've shut your doors in the evenings and set up classes for teaching people how to do finance, how to deal with their problems of their rental and their landlords. You could set up, you could open up your place and do free coffee that evening and something for people off the streets, but help them do other things. You know what?

1:15:30As a community, you can find some of those solutions because the government's not going to work for, in my view, for a while yet. OK, let's finish this on a positive. What three things could our country do to get itself out of this dire straits that it's in? We need the economy to work. I cannot keep stressing this enough. We need to find ways of unlocking capital to invest in infrastructure, to create jobs and to actually educate people into a change of professions so they can go into the new economy and new jobs that are going to come round the corner, which we're not ready for. Because one of the reasons we're not attracting more arduous investment in these countries is we don't have the skill space for the jobs that actually are needed.

1:16:14You know, if you look at building houses, we don't have enough people to build houses. We don't have people with the skills who could actually go out there and build them. We could take them off the street and give them an apprenticeship, wouldn't we? And then, yeah. Oh, the whole apprenticeship scheme. Oh, by the way, talking... And then, so that's the one thing I would change straight away. Because we used to be great at the apprentice thing. The second thing is education. Our education system is still largely based on an education system after the war. Industrial. It's completely crazy. So take apprenticeships, okay?

1:16:40If you're going into secondary school and you're not an A-track student, okay, why are we making you study algebra and, you know, all these ridiculous subjects? Why not offer apprenticeships or technical skills at 11 or 12 or 13 when they haven't still, when you've still got the energy and the learning and the ability and the inspiration. Yeah, maybe they're good with their hands. They're more creative. Okay, so you set practical maths. Why at that stage then, rather than all the nonsense they're teaching somebody who is not going to go to university, why are they not teaching then what is APR?

1:17:16How do you get a loan? How do you set up a business? Personal finance. Personal finance. Why don't you do practical? The banks don't want them to know that, do they? No, no, no, no. Forget the banks. Forget the money. I'm talking about politicians. Why don't we? Education is not fit for purpose. And so we're not turning out the people who are actually going to do the jobs we need, who haven't got confidence in themselves. You know, if you look at the prison population, nearly 50 percent of the people who are in the prison population can't actually read or write to a level that they can actually pass the 11 plus.

1:17:48Wow. OK. Why are we not teaching people in prisons? Why have we got classes in prisons? Why are we not teaching people? Why are we not getting prisoners to go out low, low security crime or low, low level crime? People who are in low, low security prison. Why are they not outworking earning? Because one of the biggest reasons for reoffending is that when people come out, they have no money. So what you do is potholes. I know whatever it is, tree surgery, whatever it is they can go and do. And they earn some money for that. You put it away. So when they come out of prison, they've got some money.

1:18:21they don't have to go to turn to crime because they've got something that they've earned they've got a new skill they can go out and be actually somebody who's a positive benefit to society there's things we can do so that's economy, education, what's the final thing I do think we do need to do something about immigration I do think so and I think we need to do it in a thoughtful way because the immigration figures are wrong Foreign students should not be in the immigration figures. They are a net contributor to our country to the tune of about 48 billion or million, 48 billion, million, sorry, a year.

1:19:00So why are foreign students in our immigration figures? Crazy. Then the people we are bringing in legally, we should be at the same time training people up to do those jobs. So you actually reduce one and increase. It's not going to happen overnight. Again, be honest with people to say we can't reduce it overnight. What we can do is have a direction of travel that will reduce it. And by the way, that includes illegal or irregular, irregular routes as well. But this is our plan. This is our one year plan, our three year plan, our five year plan. This is what we're going to do. Not, you know, falling into these tropes of we're going to, you know, we're going to send people to Randa.

1:19:41We're going to send them to, I mean, the disused army bases, for example. Do you know why they're disused? Because there's nobody there. There's no water, there's no electricity, there's nothing. So we're gonna spend money to bring them up to a habitable state, to take somebody out of the hotel, to put them out rather than processing them and getting them to contribute, or putting them on a plane and going back if they're not supposed to be here. Why are we finding more places rather than speeding up the system? You're just moving a problem from one place to another. It makes no sense whatsoever to me.

1:20:16This show is called Disruptors. What does the word disruptive mean to you? Disruptor, I would say, in a positive sense, because I think it's positive and negative, is not toeing the line, not believing the status quo is going to make everything right. Having the courage to be wrong. in its negative form I think disruption is when you harm others or cause harm or do you do something that causes harm to others that is a negative disruptor and give us maybe what you're working on now I know you've had your health challenges by all means talk about that I know obviously you've got your business and maybe tell us what you're going to do in your sort of put the political arena just be really good to get like a final idea of what you're working on what your vision is yeah I mean my um so I have a platform a second platform called money she which is I'm trying to encourage women to become much more active in looking after their finances and becoming financially secure so that's just m-o-n-e-y-s-h-e s-h-e yeah money she yeah right so people can go yeah yeah I can go and look and there's loads of resources and actually men use it a lot because I've got rid of all the jargon.

1:21:34There's no jargon on our website. Money She just talks about money. So I'm a survivor of domestic violence and 85 % of domestic abuse and domestic violence includes economic abuse. So that's why Money She as well. So I've linked that. So my campaigning is for women, for banks, for institutions to realize that actually they need to make sure that they support women because economic abuse. And unfortunately, online has helped men who are abusers to actually assert even more economic control because for example you can see a pop-up you get a ping when somebody's used a card where they are it's actually easier to control women's money than it's ever been before so economic abuses is actually increasing at a huge rate so that's something I'm working on and connected with that I'm trying to bring some or my policy work a campaigning work is a reform in the divorce act because section 24 of divorce act there is no economic abuse is not something that is taken into consideration in the financial settlement under divorce at the moment.

1:22:36So there's some reforms on the Divorce Act that I'm working on. When it comes to education, obviously, it's something I'm very passionate, because I think we do need to educate people more. I'd love to see things like human rights, practical finances brought into schools and into universities. In that first year when you're at university, We're in better time than to learn actually how things really work. And then apart from that, it is working on my business, trying to get as many people as possible to be engaged, as I said, in finance and investment. But then using my spare time to actually expose.

1:23:19What's that company? It's called scmdirect.com. SCM. SCM Direct. So smart, common sense, modern investing. Yeah. So we're a disruptor platform. But the other thing with that is to say that there are still my campaigning bit on that for SCM is the Financial Services Conduct Authority, which is our regulator, is not fit for purpose. And it needs massive reform. And it's letting so many things, scandals happen. You know, look at the car finance scandal that's happened about the entire industry knew about it. You know, there's so many things that happened in the past. rbs there's loads of scandals that happened we need to reform our regulator um actually all our regulators in this country need regulate need reforming but the one i can work with is the one in my city in the city so and then finally for my journey having gone through cancer and still going through i have a very rare genetic cancer everyone knows of braca braca 1 braca 2 you might have heard heard of that for breast cancer there's one called pal b2 which i have which has only discovered a few years ago so it's raising awareness for women to really understand um the signs because it's not just a lump there's lots of other signs you have to so that you know go and screening you know you might you're busy and this is men and women and you put off and you put off and you put off but you know the hour that you go to have your screening or getting there whatever that hour could be the difference between another 10 years so we should all go and get screened you screened do not put off in this country we're really fortunate the nhs there's one thing we send out we're one of the countries send out the most appointments for screening of most countries in the world right yeah our take up rate is less than half oh wow less than 50 percent yeah well that's a nice message to leave us on for everyone to take care of their health a little bit more absolutely yeah and i'd say to people remember to laugh and actually have fun it feels like it's hopeless yeah but actually don't give up on hope and don't give up on each other i remember to laugh because you know having a sense of humor dark or whatever because mine's pretty dark you know i said i said when i was going through my cancer if i died i wanted my funeral i wanted to be a celebration i wanted iggy pop with this shirt off to be leading i'm playing lust for life which is my song yeah so you know find the lust in life yeah i love that and where can we follow you?

1:25:45Where are you most active on social media? I haven't come off X. I know lots of people have and I haven't been to Blue Sky. You're pretty big on X, aren't you? I like to engage with people who have a different point of view and I take the time to answer them. And is that just your name? Yeah, it's at that Gina Miller. That Gina Miller. And I'm on LinkedIn as well. But most people I say, if you've got a problem and you don't like me or you like me or whatever it is, email me and I'll probably respond to you. Or not probably, I do. Right, and what's your email then? my email is the best one to do me at is is inquiries at money she.com okay gina thank you very much you're welcome silver has crashed it's back to its price in 1974 and i'm going to buy more and if you'd like to learn how to invest and build multiple streams of recurring income i recommend you join money.school money.school is my global financial education platform to help as many people on this planet get better financial knowledge there are hundreds of hours of courses resources and masterclasses going back a decade to teach how to make, manage and multiply money and gain financial freedom.

1:26:47So join thousands of other money and freedom seekers on the link money.school and start today your journey to financial freedom and more money.

1:27:10Thank you.