#300. Two Special Forces Legends in Death Zone - Alistair Carns & Staz

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2:51This sounds stupid, doesn't it? This to a few people.

2:53Alistair Carns: I didn't think it would be as steep. Yeah, I've had lots of casualties. I've had people killed to my left, you know, shot, blown up, winded. And you work with the best people in the world. You know, it takes its toll. How do you get excited after doing that? From London to go to the top of the areas and back again in seven days. Went to Camp 4 and turned a corner. There was a guy just the night before who'd sat down. Frozen in time. Frozen. Completely frozen solid. And then when you go into Camp 4 with a couple of dead bodies and then when you go up to Everest through your passing three, four, five.

3:18Alistair Carns: What was going through your head when you saw an avalanche coming towards you? Oh, if it hits us that bad, we won't have to climb this mountain. It's going to happen, it's going to happen. Is that what you're at? It's going to happen when I'm gone, whatever. Yeah, just hold on. Basically, you're cutting your oxygen in half. We would have the oxygen masks on. The wind and the weather changes so quickly. You're talking wind at 8 ,000, 8 ,500. Because it's the same height as an airliner flies. One slip up, you're gone. Was there any part of that trip that you thought was more scarier than Afghan.

3:48I'll be really like honest on this.

3:55Quick one, guys. I'll be recording Eventful Lives live on stage this year at EMC 2025, the Entrepreneurs Marketing Conference, and it's going to be a banger. We've never done this before, so watch this space. We're taking the podcast out of the studio and into a room with 800 real business owners at an event designed to give you practical, tactical marketing strategies that you can actually implement into your own business to get results. The lineup's massive. Google are speaking, Facebook too, and I'm also going to be bringing a special guest with me. It's all happening on the 19th and 20th of September at Tobacco Dock in London.

4:29Tickets are£145 plus vat and the price will also be increasing soon. So if you run a business and want to be in the room and see me and the Eventful Lives podcast live on stage, then head over to www.emc2025.com and use the code DOGE20 if you want to get 20 % off your ticket. I'll see you there, guys. Gents, welcome to the show. Delighted to be here. Yeah, really looking forward to this one. We've got, for the listeners out there, we've got two special, special human beings here. We've got Al Cairns and we've got Staz. Everyone knows Staz. He's been on, this is, I think it's your fourth time on the podcast.

5:04Before we start getting rolling, can we just get a bit of background on yourself, Al?

5:07Alistair Carns: yeah i'm uh well joined we grew up in aberdeen joined the military at 19 uh spent 24 years in the military did multiple tours all around the world uh did a lot of specialist courses um and then uh sort of 24 year point decided to pop out and then went into politics and i'm now the minister for veterans and people in the government oh wow fair play so just go but just go back a little bit there what was your journey in the military so i joined as a young marine yeah so non-rank at all. Did four years as a young Marine. Did a couple of tours of Arabian Gulf doing boardings of people smuggling oil out of Iraq.

5:42Alistair Carns: And then decided to become an officer so I went back through the commando course again. So I did the commando course twice. That's why my knees creep so much. And then I did a year in the Marines and then decided to become a mountain leader. So I did another hard course and then went on to join our reconnaissance unit. And then a couple of years there and then did the first Afghan tour in 2006 as a joint tactical air controller so calling in all sorts of fires and aircraft and stuff and then decided to go on another course um and then from there never looked back really did another five or six tours made my way through up the ranks and finished as a full colonel I was due to be promoted to brigadier but decided to leave to go into politics and try and deliver a bit more change wow fair play so going to brigadier that's the that's the creme de la creme that's the top top yeah so it's one star that's a one sort of one star general position it was going to be a really good job but uh i thought i could deliver more change outside of hierarchy and in politics so sort of trying to push change via the ballot box now wow and how long were you in the special forces for so i was in the forces for uh for 24 years and i spent in the specialist elements for about 14 14 years old up yeah that's how stas over to you mate i mean wow wow um hard to you know eclipse that yeah to put that into context well you know i did the raw marines course back in 2005 which is a very difficult arduous course uh passed first time successful uh and then went on to to do you know to do my continue my career three years the marines you know 10 in the specialist units after that and for Al to go.

7:20Yeah. You know, and then do that whole course again. So you went back to do it again? Yeah, it was miserable. Why did you choose to go back to do it again?

7:29Alistair Carns: Well, to become an officer, you've got to go back through and you've got to do the time slightly faster on the commando course and stuff. Now, I thought they'd sort of skip rifle lesson one and how to wash yourself again. But no, we went right back to, so four years in the Marines and went right back to day one and went through the whole course again. Which is incredible. Yeah. Miserable. And with that comes another level of respect, though, as well, because oftentimes in the military, if you're an officer, they get referred to as Rupert and almost, you know, the Mickey taken out. But it's a Rupert as an officer.

8:00It's just so posh, brought up with a silver spoon in their mouth. But actually, far more respect is given when you have been, you know, a general sort of Marine. And then you go back in and you've had that experience. And then you sort of command that more, for me personally, more level of respect. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

8:16Alistair Carns: So when did you two first meet? We met probably, what, 10 years ago? So we were on different, so in a cycle, we were on different elements of the cycle. So we banged into each other on handovers and takeovers of various operational deployments. Interesting, you were on that tour in 2006 in Afghanistan. That's when I had my first operational tour. You were in Sangin, weren't you? Yeah. No, I actually went to Kabul. I was attached to Charlie Company. Okay. so I sort of had that kind of rotation of going around the bazaars but mainly out of Kabul the capital and was there ever a time when you thought you could lose your life on tour yeah too many to count I think is that right but you know when you're trained to I always say it's like training an athlete to run a race and then never allowing them to run the race you train the military to go into combat the final test is sort of man on man combat isn't it and you train your whole life to do it.

9:15Alistair Carns: So nine times out of 10, people tend to thrive and succeed in that environment. I think it's fair to say we've used up probably eight of our normal lives. Yeah, I was going to say. I got shot in a day sack. So I got a bullet in my radio battery. Did you? In one contact, yeah. I sort of stood up and tried to call in air stuff and there was nothing coming in the radio and looked at my radio and I had a bullet stuck in my battery. Welcome. Yeah. is there any countries that really stand out in your mind we thought that was really dangerous yeah bits of afghanistan i think afghanistan i mean yeah with the very sharpest end of the spear room yeah the majority of my operational tours were afghanistan just because when i joined that was the kind of the uh the highest operational output and tempo for the unit at the time it was all centered around yeah afghanistan and how long how long would a tour like that last if you went to Afghan six months so you're there you're deployed for six months and you know you are there come rain or shine yeah exactly I did a year in 2010 I did a year straight from over 2010 during the surge the US Marine Corps was surging out there so I did a full year out there but I volunteered to stay on because it was brilliant I loved it I enjoyed my time I mean most people do don't they I think yeah to use that analogy again of being you know trained sort of athlete or sprinter that's exactly what you want to do you know look and I'm not a warmonger or anything like that.

10:37I'm accepting of the dangers but you know, it is a thrill. It's exciting and it's everything that you want to do when you are a professional soldier. Yeah.

10:44Alistair Carns: And you work with the best people in the world. Like your buddies left and right, you know, even the civilians you're working with, people in the task force or people in the teams, people in the brigades, the ground holding battalions are just amazing. You feel like you're a part of something bigger as well. You're all pushing and pulling in the same direction, you know, for a bigger purpose which is a unique feeling. Changing people's lives. Yeah, absolutely. I want to know, when you're on a six-month tour and they go, Al, do you want to stay on for another six months? Are you like, yeah, I'm in?

11:14Or do they say, Al, do you want to take a year, mate? Because I know you're mad for it.

11:18Alistair Carns: No, they actually, I got to about five and a half months and they were like, okay, listen, we're short. I'm a troop commander. Do you want to stay on? And I was like, yep. Yeah, I'll stay on. No problem at all. And actually, they're scoring the team that rotated in with a team that I'd left previously. So I knew them all. So you had all your mates back again. exactly what was that what a day-to-day be like in afghan at the peak of the troubles that you both saw what was your day-to-day i just explained just the listener and the viewer just to understand what you were what you were doing day my day was probably different to to ours as being an operator as being a kind of a knuckle dragger as a you know um probably different for hours a bit more responsibility and uh and big boy stuff going on at his level but for me personally it was all centered around the missions and the operations yeah we would all be gearing towards you know searching out high value targets have a an effect on the ground um but in the day what that would look like most of our operations would be conducted at night at time of our choosing so the daytime it was all about sort of physically everybody hitting the gym uh looking after your kit and equipment and each other you know going to missions and briefings and everything else and kind of going through that cycle of just getting ready for the next mission and operation making sure that you're in peak physical condition and that you're ready to to operate and for you personally how is how exciting was it knowing when they said right stas and the boys we've got a mission for you and you're in in three days time you're going brilliant that's the feeling of you're playing in the world cup final you know get ready you're another world cup final then two days later another world cup final and it was it was fantastic it was absolutely absolutely brilliant and really shaped and developed me as an individual yeah and the there's two sides to this isn't there So the first tour that we did probably was the ground holding battalions.

13:00Alistair Carns: So when you're on the ground, you're sort of every day, you're probing enemy defenses or you're patrolling into the green zone. You're getting in contact every day, day in, day out, every day for six months. And that takes quite a toll on the body and casualties. And then there's the other side and more specialist areas where you literally get up in the morning, you go and check what we're watching, what we're tracking. You'll do fizz, you'll have lunch, you'll go check again. you'll do phase, helicopters will come pick you up and away you go. And it was every night, every night. Or vehicle patrols, you know, going long range vehicle patrols.

13:35Alistair Carns: But it was exactly what we're trained to do. I mean, I absolutely loved it. Thrived in it. Everybody was mission focused. And every operation you did was saving people's lives. Yeah. Coalition forces, Afghan forces or Afghan civilians. Yeah. It was a privilege to take part in it. Yeah, I'm sure. Privilege is a good word. Yeah, for sure. And have you had any close friends around you pass away? yeah I've had lots of casualties I've had people killed to my left people you know shot, blown up, wounded you know it takes its toll but I think you know before I deployed in my last deployment I sat the whole team down and I said hey the reality is two of you are unlikely to return and we'll have about 10 % casualties so you know look left and right make most of it now because at some point we're all going to come back together I was right, unfortunately.

14:28I think that does give one thing that I took away from that is that it gives you a very, very unique perspective on life. It allows you to be thankful and grateful for the opportunities that you not just had, but have looking forward as well. So for me, it was never a thought that entered my mind that, you know, it was always there. You knew the realities of war and what you were going into. But for me personally, I just sort of parked that into the back of my mind. I never sort of went on to an operation worrying or overthinking about what could happen.

14:58Alistair Carns: It's our duty, isn't it? It's our duty. An interesting point is how do you get excited after doing that? That's my next question. My next question is like… You're on a roller coaster with the kids. They're like, oh, that's great. You're like, this is really boring. Yeah. How hard was it for you to leave the military, Al? Oh, it was the hardest season ever made and I miss it every day. but the um my my my I think my purpose in life is deliver change and make life the best it can be for those in the military and I decided I got to a point stuck in a hierarchical organization that you know it would take me a long time to get into a position where I wielded significant influence to change the system for the better and in particular with the war in Ukraine the changes going on there I wanted to see the military change faster so I decided the only way to do that would be step outside of the military yeah get into politics and then come back in and help people change.

15:48Alistair Carns: Right, okay. Fair play. Are you noticing that you've been out now, I've said, the military for about a year, coming a year. Have you been able to make the change you want so far? Well, we're on the cusp of the Strategic Defence Review, so there's lots of good stuff coming in that. My role in veterans and people, we just launched this big thing called Op Valour, which is the first time the government's going to take responsibility for veterans in particular. Hallelujah. And I'm absolutely delighted. It was 50 million over the next three years to restructure how the government delivers support at the local, regional and national level.

16:20Alistair Carns: And so that for me is worth every step of the change. Incredible. Amazing. So basically the veterans that leave haven't been looked after whatsoever, as we know, sleeping on the streets, homeless, PTSD, drug abuse, whatever it may be. You're now saying in layman terms here, you're going to get funding in to help everyone who's been serving their country. The reality is the government has relied on the third sector, so the charities, RBL and health creators and others to do it for them. And what we're saying now is the government's going to build a structure to deliver far better services for veterans.

16:55Alistair Carns: Now, it won't happen in the short term, but in five years' time, we'll look back and go, hey, there's now a structure in place that government owns, that the government's responsible for, that will look after veterans. So can you make the government accountable? Well, that's what's going to happen with this. Okay. Which is great news. It's the first time it's happened, probably since the First World War. And needed. Absolutely. There's been so much, I've had many military, and there's so much frustration of what we're talking about here. And what I would say to the listeners, it will take a bit of time to change, but bear with us.

17:23Alistair Carns: This isn't a stick and plaster where we shout in the media and then it all goes quiet. It's a systemic, full-scale change of how we're going to do business. Well, if anyone's going to make something happen and make change, it's definitely going to be yourself fronting it, which anyone out there, if you're military or non-military, you're in good hands, people. How do you get that 50 million quid? Where does it go? Does it go into a pot? and then you say, well, I'm going to divide that pot up like this. Yeah, so it's new money because the defence budget is going up. It's been allocated by the defence sector and Keir Starmer is fully supportive.

17:51Alistair Carns: And that will be allocated down to different bits at the regional, local and national level. The reality is, if you were to say to me, I don't want to divert the podcast too much, but if you were to say to me, like, where are your veterans? Who are they? What have they done? I wouldn't be able to tell you. You wouldn't know the numbers, their names or anything? So we roughly, I can give you a gauge, but I can't tell you specifically. And that's really dangerous because in this world that we live in, if we're to press the red button and call Stas back up to join up and go and fight in a major war where we don't have a choice, we don't know where everybody is.

18:21Alistair Carns: We don't know what skills they have and we don't know how they can help. So we need to change that. And part of that is by building the structure so we can help people. How crazy that was in the structure wasn't in place anyway. Like common sense tells you. It used to be back in World War I, World War II, Cold War days. We just lost touch with it. how have you seen have you seen the military change over the last 10 years like people not wanting to be in the military as much as they used to want we see it on tv advertising people i want to be in the military it doesn't seem to be as many military going through the hopes to get to become part of the military is that correct or not good question let me add another question to that do you think they should bring back national service i'm asking both of you guys i think so I think, I'll just go back on a question in particular about people joining.

19:09Alistair Carns: There's actually lots of people wanting to join. Yeah. We had 100, I want to say about 140 ,000 people wanting to join the army last year. It's actually the system of pulling them in. Yes. And getting their medical records is one of the biggest problems because the NHS is on different systems. Trying to get their medical records in a timely and effective manner to get them to join up quickly is really difficult. So that's blocking. That's blocking getting people into the military by medical records. It's just the bureaucracy of trying to get the medical, because it's a letter. You've got to send a letter to the UPM.

19:37Alistair Carns: It's mad. So we've got, actually, we've put in place a digital mechanism now. We're trialing it with the army, and we've got a new recruitment process out. So we are absolutely trying to change the whole system, but these things just take a bit of time. Okay. Okay. Do you find yourself getting frustrated you've come back into the scene? National service. Hmm? National service. No, but I'm intrigued. No, no, I'm still intrigued. Do you find, no, because this is life, man. And this is good. Do you find yourself frustrated, Al, that you've come into something? You go, why has this not been done years ago?

20:08And for me to make this happen, why can't I just make it happen quicker than it's actually going to take?

20:13Alistair Carns: Yeah. I mean, the reality is, I mean, there's been lots of, the previous governments have changed government ministers so regularly that no one's been able to get into their brief in detail. There's some good work going on, but there's also glaring holes. Yeah. And when I come in, because I can instinctively push past all the barriers and see it because I've lived it for 24 years. it's very easy for me to go right that needs fix this needs fix etc and i've got full support of the team so john healy and co are fully supportive um with a big bureaucracy like defense yeah it takes time for anything to to to move through and you've got to do the detailed analysis so you get it right yeah and there's a balance between the paralysis through analysis yes and getting stuff done quickly shit done and so it's so it's the balance in between never allowing one to overtake the other because you end up with fickle thin policies if you go too far flat and fast yeah And you end up with this myriad and bureaucracy and mediocrity if you go too long.

21:04Alistair Carns: So the balance of leadership is trying to push it forward fast in the middle. And going back to the question we spoke about, your question, what were your thoughts?

21:15I think it would be a good thing. Not necessarily forced, but I think certain age groups and young boys and men, and there's such an issue at the moment, a deep issue surrounding masculinity and guys and young men feeling lost or feeling like they don't have any purpose. I just see it from my perspective, my lived and learned experience of being in the military and all the benefits that it gained for me as an individual, as character building, resformed, willpower, the lot. Exactly. Resilience. And I think we're missing that to some extent. So it just gets difficult when something's forced.

21:52Alistair Carns: That's the problem. That is the key point. It's really interesting. People asked us, me in particular, why do this Everest climb? As an MP, and hey, in the military, we live in a really narrow band, don't we? It's a roundabout, I like-minded people, we're all, it's a bit echo chamber. It really is. And becoming an MP and going into Birmingham Selly Oak and then you're sitting in a surgery where people come and tell me their issues and you've got a young woman who's going to be made homeless the next day, she's got three kids. And the money and resources required to provide her housing is a pittance in comparison to what we've seen in some cases in defense.

22:27Alistair Carns: It really opens your perspective and increases your empathy levels on a different scale and I've really developed over the last year. And so when we then talk about sort of national service and volunteering, it became clear to me after going around Selly Oak in the veteran space that the whole system is held up by volunteers and people going above their professional and personal time to do something for a cause that they care about. And that's when we sort of sat on the red line and came up with a plan for us, busy people, Stas busy running his business. Kev Garth busy professionally me busy what can we do above and beyond our time to demonstrate service um and volunteer for something we care about that's where sort of mission everest was was born from let's move on to mission everest tell me where the idea come from to complete everest from london to go to the top of the areas and back again in seven days a madman a madman i was not involved in this initial conversation it must be said but um but if we zoom out as well that traditionally um you know Everest's tallest mountain in the world it will always have that appeal to the mountaineers and the outdoor enthusiasts and typically it takes eight to ten weeks for a traditional expedition and to Al's point we're busy people so it's something that I've always wanted to do myself personally and professionally but I just couldn't justify the time away from family from work uh quite a selfish endeavor um and then i heard from foxy so originally foxy was was being pulled into this and i got a phone call hey stash you want to climb yeah i'd love to however i haven't got eight to ten weeks to yeah and he was like no no no oh we're going to do it in a week because there's a team being pulled together with al and kev and garth so that's kind of my side of the story and that's that kind of then piqued my interest and then came the question well how is that possible al you spin it from yours?

24:17Yeah, I mean, I've... Were you the instigator?

24:19Alistair Carns: No, no, I'm not the man. I came out of work at Emmerich Ministry of Defence, went to Red Lion, which is just around the corner of the pub to meet Gar. It was sort of Kev for... And who's Kev? Kev Godlington. A really good dude. One of the forces. Was he in the forces as well? He was. He was a very specialist as well. And sort of came around for a beer and like, hey, you know, I'm thinking I'm doing something. I want to sort of challenge and we got any ideas. I'm like, well, and climb Everest. I was like, well, I can't. The same as Stas, I can't spend four to eight weeks to go commitments, sell it out, Birmingham.

24:51Alistair Carns: I've got, you know, the MOD veterans. He's like, oh no, we're going to do it in a week. And I was like, we're all good. I'm in. Can't be in. And I didn't look at any of the details. I was like, well, surely, you know, it can be done. And then the sort of plan started to unfold, didn't it? And that's how you realised the torture you had to go through. So it's then worth mentioning the other, kind of the team leader of the group, Garth Miller, He's a BA pilot by day. Again, I think he's still a reservist, military officer. And he has the current record, or what was the current record for climbing, speed climbing or these flash expeditions.

25:27And he did it in 21 days. He did this with a guy called Lucas Furtenbach, who owns and operates Furtenbach Adventures. Now, they offer, there's lots of different operators out there that, you know, guiding companies. In base camp, you may have seen, it's like a small kind of village. and all these different operators out there, and they're offering the chance and opportunity to climb Everest with them. Furtenback Adventures are slightly different. They offer out something called a flash expedition, and that's typically four weeks. So it's cutting the traditional expedition by half. So rather than eight weeks, it's four weeks.

26:01With this comes a lot of pre-acclimatization, which again, to Al's point, the devil's in the detail. We sort of signed up for it. I'm in a week. Sounds easy. I'm in. But actually, when we started looking and diving into the detail, what would be required for ourselves physically and on top of the normal sort of training routine and the normal daily lives. So I think a lot of people would assume that it would be easier, i.e., we just go in for a week. It's easy. And why wouldn't everybody else do this? Well, niche, niche. Niche, niche. I don't know if you saw my stories, but we have been living in a hypoxic sort of environment, a matic-ly sealed tent at home.

26:38So it looks like a traditional tent you'd go camping in. It sits over the spare bed. A little tube goes in there. This tube runs back to an R2-D2 looking machine. And this is, it basically reduces the amount of oxygen in this hematically sealed tent. And then that in itself simulates altitude, obviously less the pressure. So basically it reduces the oxygen. Your body then has a physiological response to that and increases your red blood cells. So we've been, I think between us, it was between four to 600 accumulated hours each. spent in this tent. So we would sleep at night in this tent. So how many weeks are we talking here in the lead up to your...

27:16Since the sort of beginning of February. So what we're talking about. I did over 600 months. 10 weeks. 10 weeks. 10 weeks.

27:23Alistair Carns: 10 to 12 weeks. Yeah, every night. In your own house. In the own house. And sleeping in that tent, it gives you... It's already like 2 ,000, 3 ,000 meters. When you start to go higher, it's disrupted sleep. So you wake up every hour or two short of breath. You need to go to the toilet all the time, which is epic. it's just miserable it's pretty miserable it's miserable it's what people go out there to do traditionally you would go out to the mountain to do this how high is the mountain? you would trek up so base camp is about 5 ,300 metres but traditionally normally people would they'd trek up to base camp and that sort of 12 to 14 days trek your body's kind of adapting to the altitude so you acclimatise our base camp and then go again yeah and then you'll do what they call rotation so from base camp that's your main base You would walk up through camp one, spend a night there, come back.

28:12The next few days later, you go up to camp two, spend an evening there, back down again. And you do this process three or four times.

28:18Alistair Carns: And that gets your body ready for the altitude. It sort of climatizes you. They go up and down three or four times. We didn't do any of that. And we did it in the tent. So the doctor would give us the dial. And we would, in our simulated sleeping platform, go up to six, six and a half thousand meters and then back down again. And this is while you're at home? Yeah. Yeah. We had SBO monitors. So before you'd get into the tent, you'd monitor how much oxygen is in your blood, your blood pressure, your kind of resting heart rate. Then you'd take that inside the tent with you. We would have an oxygen reader inside the tent.

28:51We'd get that number to the correct altitude. When we wake up after a pretty poor night's sleep, you'd then test how much oxygen is in your blood. Again, we had a kind of a spreadsheet. That would be every morning. We'd update that.

29:06Alistair Carns: An example of the SpO2, so at the moment we'll be sat 92 to 98 SpO2 in your blood, like full of oxygen. After a good night's sleep, a terrible night, sleeping in that tent, you'd wake up and it'd be about 70, between 70 and 80. And that was the kind of sweet spot, wasn't it, to really adapt change for the body. Tell me the difference of keeping in your nice bed at home to going into a tent and going to 3 ,000 metres in your tent. what's the difference between a normal bed and 3 000 meters for you guys before we even jumped up to the 6 000 meters let's just go from naught to three thousand shortness of breath is okay you'll so when you when you sleep your breathing slows down your heart rate slows down and then you wake up sort of 50 minutes an hour in like big deep breath and you know and then your spio bump up again and then you'll go normal breathing then you'll fall asleep again and two hours later like yeah maybe headaches like okay like headache to the morning and also on top of all this we're training so we're putting in between eight to 12 hours training volume worth of training a week an example that includes the gym so strength and conditioning training uh the static bike so just spinning on the bike and then you know a run or a walk or time on feet i had to step up because i'm busy and work absolutely miserable i had this box a step-up box like what 12 inches three inches or something i just put the mask on and step up and down this box for an hour and a half it was It's absolutely mind-numbingly boring.

30:30Yes, I broke how you did that. But yeah, and to Al's point there, we had to do simulated altitude training as well. So we would take the R2-D2 machine and wrestle it downstairs into the garage where the bike was, and we'd put a mask on, and then we would do an hour or two at the altitude we're sleeping at. So you're doing exercise. Reduce oxygen as well. It has a different physiological response. The body responds differently to that as well.

30:55Alistair Carns: That's an interesting point about R2-D2. so this machine heavy thing you know tanks and whatever and all the pipes because I'm quite busy so I do three days a week in London I'll do a day and a half two days in Birmingham and I'll have a day like doing other stuff team veterans or going around the country so I've got to take this R2D strap it in my seatbelt in the car it's like my best buddy taking them around and then plug them into a hotel and whoever's next to the hotel must be hating it because it's a massive noise like a generator it was quite amusing so I packed it into the box a couple of days ago I was delighted to say I went on holiday, took it with me.

31:28Ruby was like, you know, I've taken that. I've got to. I have to take it, yeah. So how many weeks from start to finish, how many weeks were you training for when you went, well, rule in, lad, here's the R2-D2, here's the tents at home to actually going up Everest? I think for us, we probably started training, physically training properly from January. So let's talk weeks? No, I'd say 11, 12 weeks. 11, 12 weeks, okay. Before you even stepped foot on Everest. Before you stepped foot on Everest, yeah.

31:54Alistair Carns: Oh, okay. So a bit of physical training in January. Then we got the kit, R2-D2, and all the piping and machinery sort of start of February. And that was us in the altitude training. And to be fair there, we're all pretty fit guys. The most important thing was that altitude training. Adapting to that. Okay, yeah, okay. What's the difference in your tent from going to 3 ,000 to 6 ,000? It's huge. I mean, to Al's point earlier, oxygen in the environment right now is about, it's 20.8%. As we're now. Now, the normal oxygen that you're used to breathing, that you feel - You've got an oxygen thief here.

32:27Yeah, an oxygen thief. Very true. 6 ,000 meters, it's around about half, well, more than half, nine point something. So imagine - So you're losing half of the oxygen. And the body is working extremely difficult in the background, thinking what's going on, there's less oxygen.

32:46Alistair Carns: Your heart rate goes up to heart rate. So my heart rate, the rest and heart rate is about 45. Okay. What did it go on? 71, 72 at night. as your kip in yeah so your heart rate is constantly going and you're kind of burning the candle at both ends because you're physically training what you I know right surely not surely not I don't know what you're talking about George hey what I will what I will say is don't drink alcohol and then go in that 10 oh geez it's 10 times worse do you know it's funny leading that it's where it is Staz phones me up we obviously got the Bournemouth 7th Festival mate mate mate are you coming to the festival he phones up he says mate can you leave some PVRP tickets for me wasn't it are you going to be back in time for that he goes fuck it I'll make sure I'll be that was one of the main things when we were on that ridge we'll tell you this story in a bit when it was 70 mile an hour winds it was grim we're on the summit push we're at 8 ,600 metres and we had a bit of a Chinese bottom at the top Sherpas wanted to turn around and I remember I've got to get back for seven let's keep going he said I was like this is like Norway training he was like I've got to get back I was like why he was like I've got to borrow my seven time and then we bumped into each other on saturday didn't we amazing you were like wow amazing you're finally here yeah was there any fear of losing your life doing what you were doing on the mountain i like your take on this around the the similarities between the military and danger but but so i think when you're serving king country yeah it's like your duty isn't it you're like you're going into harm's way every night every day and uh you're going in with your buddies um it's not necessarily optional it's what you sign up to do and uh i found it slightly different and i can't really describe it slightly different because when you when you're we were going for camp two to camp three and we saw a dead body coming down with sherpas sort of you know trying to belay him down or and then when we went to camp four and turned the corner there was a guy just the night before who'd sat down sort of still tied onto the rope full summit suit full rucksack on frozen in time frozen completely frozen solid and you saw him like that yeah and then when you go into camp four is a couple of dead bodies and then when you go up to Everest you're passing three, four, five you know dead bodies and so from a there was a couple of times like we had a bit of a giggle then we were like why are we doing this again?

34:57Alistair Carns: It's like because it was a choice you know and that's what made it different and a slightly different shift mind shift and the risk is if you make a mistake above 8 ,000 meters like you break a leg like I'm I'm out and trained all that sort of stuff and we've always had casualties broken leg twisted sock whatever it may be but if um if you have an accident above 8 000 meters the chances of you getting down are quite limited like really limited okay and so there's no room for error so you know we'll talk about later but a couple of times me and stars you know stood on and like i stood on the ridge you know sort of 60 mile per hour winds like you make one mistake here you know it's um one wrong foot placement an ankle twist is it's that's the end of it because above they call it the death zone about 8 ,000 meters.

35:43And it's a bit of an unspoken gentleman's rule that you're going to get left. Now, probably different with us. And that's one of the main things that really, I think, forced us up that hill. For me, it was a testament to resilience, camaraderie. You know, me having complete and utter trust in Al and Kev and Garth, given our backgrounds, you know, I felt safe.

36:07Alistair Carns: That's a really good point. So, you know, why do we do this? One of the reasons was to paint veterans in a positive way. There's a lot of negativity around veterans, and there are a group of veterans that need help, and we've got to continue to help them. But veterans can do anything if you put their mind to it. And when you put a group of them together, their sort of camaraderie, their teamwork, it just comes through and through. And we saw that on the mountain on multiple occasions. We saw that on the hill, that kind of, all those things that we'd learned that are ingrained in us that just transferred very, very effortlessly and easily onto the mountain because there's a thing in the military that you get off on operation and it's your kit before yourselves.

36:45It's each other. You look after each other, then your kit and then yourself. And we were doing that. We're tired. We've been on our feet 12 hours and it's hard going.

36:53Alistair Carns: The bravestaz is terrible banter. The banter. Get me off. Forget me. That's enough. That's quick enough to get me up and back. Everyone's like, come on, shout out, Staz. Can we not do in four days? All my sevens is up. But the banter was great. I mean, we had two, Two, obviously, Navy, Marine guys and then two Army guys. And the banter was just ferocious. But it was exactly that. We looked after each other. Then we did our kit. Then we did ourselves. That's amazing to hear. I want to try to visualize what Mount Everest looks like. I want to visualize what you guys are wearing, what you're carrying with you, what the days look like.

37:25You know, I want to get a whole picture here. Yeah, I mean, this sounds stupid. I've said this to a few people. I didn't think it would be as steep. Which, bear with me. It was unrelentingly kind of steep, sort of 60, 70 degrees and oftentimes when you're walking up hills there's a bit of relief, a bit of down or I'll just take a seat there for a minute. No other sit down. You have a what they call a fixed line, a fixed rope which credit and kudos to the Sherpas. They are the backbone of that. Were they with you the whole time, the Sherpas? We had our own Sherpas from our guiding company but the people that fix the line changes every year.

38:04What do you mean fix the line they call the ice doctors so every year you can imagine that actually from the bottom

38:08Alistair Carns: to the top yes there is a there are multiple ropes that are secured in via um fixed points that you're clipped that you're clipped into so if you fall you you know you you're not going to go too far okay um i think if you step right back right what was from i mean we got on the helicopter in katmandu and when you come around the valley like a huge valley cavernous valley and you come end there's this rocky outcrop in the middle which has just hundreds of tents dome tents on it okay like um like sparse dome tents on sort of slate rock and that is base camp and you come in and land and you've got to find and pick your way through to wherever your you know your company is that's helping you out we're into furt and back and we only spent a couple hours there didn't we yeah it's like four didn't even spend a night in base camp we just like let's get cracking yeah yeah i think we had pizza before we went so you flew where you flew from london to nepal and then got a helicopter to land at base camp.

39:02Alistair Carns: Yeah. And this was all on time. So when you left London, is that when you said we want to do this in seven days? So I pressed the stopwatch when we went wheels up. So yeah, for a countdown from seven days. And how long was the flight roughly to Nepal? Well, via Doha. So it was six hours, then four hours. And then a bit of in between bags. In between, fanny in the bag, okay. All of our kit was preloaded. So all of our technical climbing equipment was sent ahead. So that was waiting for us at base camp. so we had our backpacks and uh and that was it and my my interest in my zip had broken one of the bags that had gone ahead of us so they they changed the kit around so it meant the wrong kit was taken up to camp two for us which is our summit suits and all the heavy stuff you need for the bad weather and so i decided to take more kit up the first stage the first 12 hour walk through the kumbu icefall and uh paid the price for it it was absolutely hanging out so the first like frozen yeah just too much kit in my backpack okay early on what sort of weight are you carrying on your backpack well yours would be different stesis yeah when I pick his up I was like Jesus you can have that one yeah take that back technically I should have given some of the Sherpas but I just took it myself and I had a sun widge and a bottle of water in mind why did you not give the Sherpas well I just you know I just thought it was my responsibility to get up so but anyway I paid the Kumbu Icefall I thought was I so I I have to admit I didn't read one of Gaths, it ripped.

40:24Alistair Carns: So the whole process, but you've said this all the time. But the Khumbu Icefall was amazing. So think of a hundred ice cubes all packed together, the size of a house, and then shoved down a canyon. Okay. And you've got to get over this, like cubes and blocks. And there's ladders in place that you sort of climb across. You've got all your crossbones on. It's like a salt course, isn't it? It's like an assault course in Narnia. You know, very beautiful. Exactly. We climb through the night because it's a shifting glacial. It moves. It's probably one of the most dangerous spots from base camp up to camp one is the Cumbu Icefall because it's always shifting.

41:00And you climb at night because the ice is frozen and it's less susceptible to moving. And you're going over caverns.

41:07Alistair Carns: You're looking down. There's like 30 metres. Some of it, you look down and it's further than you can see. It's a bit miserable. So you just keep your eyes forward. And what have you done at night? Obviously, you've got the torch on your head and you're chatting to each other. You're close to each other. How are you communicating? or we're just talking to each other just talking no walkie talkies or no no no and then interestingly as we came as the sun sort of came up so when the heat changes again it becomes a bit more dangerous because everything heats up a bit and ice expands and all that sort of stuff and um we were just coming up to just pass the football pitch we'd covered most of the kumbu icefall and then we heard this sort of crack and thunder to the top of us and we looked to the left and we just saw an avalanche literally right above us heading straight towards us and i've seen the footage and it was you know it was a huge it was like when away it came it came down we just sort of looked at each other like well just hold on so we just all sort of lay on the floor laid on the floor we're all connected to the to the rope and it's just sort of praying and hoping that it's uh what was going through your head when you saw an avalanche coming towards you honestly i thought oh if it hits us that bad we won't have to climb this mountain maybe i can get off this yeah there's a little bit it's the same as the military it's like hey if it's going to happen, it's going to happen.

42:18So that was your attitude. It's going to happen when I'm gone, whatever. Yeah, just hold on. You'll be all right. You throw the chicken bones out. And oddly, it looked left. And then immediately you think, run that way. And it looked right. And it was just big. It was a massive hole. Prevasses and ice everywhere. And it was, well, we can't. There's no exit here. So we're connected to the rope, just hunker down. And yeah, it was sort of being hit by waves in the sea. And it went on for about 30 seconds. you know you're in your own little uh in your own little sort of cocoon we had oxygen on at this point so breathing wasn't an issue yeah um so you know we had the masks on we've got cylinders on our back with you know pure oxygen so it's just a case of just kind of suck it up and eventually after about 30 40 seconds it subsided and we sort of stood up all like yeti we're alive it was a

43:04Alistair Carns: moment of relation fair play the cameraman the cameraman uh just kept filming it like looking straight at it and got the food he saw it coming in and press record and then so you took a cameraman with you yeah it was a sherpa no he's a special he's a high altitude specialist um cameraman okay yeah he's he's he's summited at everest multiple times k2 and been involved with some big documentaries got the nickname the mountain goat exactly because it literally was super yeah he's a guy who had the sensational uh summit suit it was like leopard print it brings a bit of style to the mountain which i love yeah what are you wearing guys what you what have you got on at the hard how many stages are there so this is what i had to do for me personally i didn't think about much like when you do hard military courses if you if you if you look at it in its totality it's probably too big yeah okay so i just broke it down day by day so what do we do today we're going from base camp to camp one through the cumberweights for let's go there And how long would that take?

44:02So that took us 12 hours. Of just non-stop walking and climbing. And we sort of stopped at Camp 1. And to Al's point earlier, the weather changed. It's now 30, 40 degrees. We're in the Western Coombe. The sun is beating down. You've gone from minus 20, 30 to plus 30, the temperature range. And then we have to get up to Camp 2, which again is another, let's say, three hours. So were you kipping at Camp 1? No, it's just a stop. It's a stop. It's a stop shot. And then you get... Water, water, bit of food, change, clothing, sun hats on. you know different okay sun cream and the same day you want to get up to camp two yeah the goal

44:34Alistair Carns: is then to get to camp two so so from from base camp to camp two we're just normal trousers fleece top gore-tex jacket okay oxygen on hat helmet sunglasses or sunglasses so pretty pretty light order yeah and then when you go from camp two upwards that's when you go into summit suit heavy kit um just to make sure that you can deal with the severe temperatures on top of the right and the summit two is like a it's like a big down onesie sleeping bag okay it's like yeah but it's a very very technical piece of equipment that we had custom made for our guys from through dark yeah um and that's kind of our f1 car you know it's then it's fifth generation when we left camp two again we got hit by the sun and luckily you got all these vents on a jacket so you can vent out take your arms out take your eyes out so it was nice and cool where it needed to be and then you know later on we'll spin the story but you know when we went up into sort of minus 30 40 zipped everything up and it was like cocoon you're super warm and and goes it's a life-saving piece of equipment everybody summits and needs these including the title summit soup give an example of the down on it i managed to rip mine with my crampon uh i think we all did and literally every time i went in a tent it looked like i plucked a thousand geese feathers everywhere yeah yeah tell me about the clampons you haven't got them on the whole time from summit to upwards from camp to upwards have you from base camp all the way up oh so he's got the whole okay pretty Pretty much the whole way.

45:55So the crampons are, they're sort of spikes and they fit onto the bottom of your technical climbing mountain boot and they sort of just wrap around and obviously help with your kind of foot placement.

46:05Alistair Carns: Interesting bit that Stas brought up. I completely underestimated the size of Everest. It's just a bit strange and the steepness of it. I mean, you're talking 75 degrees climb. So example, you're talking that for how long? The whole week. For how long? From what? From Camp 2 to the summit? Camp 2 is a little flat bit and then you're up. To the summit. Yeah. And how many camps are in between there then? There's camp three that's carved into the side of the hill. Okay. On that 70 degree slope. And then there's camp four. That is a bit flatter. But again, once you go up on the Everest, the final push, it's back to 70 degrees.

46:36Alistair Carns: And so, you know, ability to sort of sit down and rest. So your ankles, I mean, my ankles were super swollen afterwards, a couple of days after. Same. Exactly the same. Because literally everything is on your ankle and those crampons. And normally when you walk up a set of stairs, it's all regular, you know, and it's uniform. But here's… You're kind of duck walking up on the side. It's like a penguin, isn't it? You're just shuffling. The movement is so slow. For us, we had these SPO gloves on that were specially adapted on the finger. So measuring how much oxygen is our blood. And we had a little monitor on our wrist.

47:11So inside the glove was a little SPO monitor, and it was giving us our heart rate and how much oxygen is in our blood. And yeah, for us, it was just constant monitoring. It's a really heart rate low.

47:23Alistair Carns: Really good point. my heart rate in the first the 12 hours the back 4 hours was about 135 140 for like 3 4 hours straight yeah and you really want to keep it as low as possible just for example for the normal bod out there if they're sprinting in the gym sprinting on a machine their heart rate's not going to get to 130 right well I'll probably get I mean your heart rate's about 160 170 when you're absolutely blowing flat out yeah because it was full body climbing you know like assault course type climbing and heart rate was high that means my SPO2 was down that's because i was carrying so much kit carrying all my haribos and uh it was just interesting because your body's getting drained all the time so when you get into you know camp two we got a couple hours rest it was literally fuel yeah eat drink as much as you can a little bit of sleep as best you can then we're off again a good way to test this for the normal bod out there is to get their heart rate to 140 just to feel what it's like yeah and go on a sprinting machine running machine and just get it to our fault and then reduce your oxygen and see what that's like so basically you're cutting your oxygen in half yeah yeah but you know to caveat at that and to counter at that we would have the oxygen masks on so at different times if we're working harder we just increase the amount of flow oxygen rate that we were getting yeah and again we were just really focused on keeping our sbo above 80 okay yeah so camp three camp four and then summit yeah what's it like to get to the summit of everest so i think let's go back to camp camp four so you go from camp three did you camp did you sleep in camp four it's just a layover you don't want to this is you're now sort of in the death zone you want to spend the minimum amount of time because our bodies naturally you're not designed to spend any amount of prolonged period of time coming into camp 4 interesting so camp 3 is like carved out of the 70 degree slope it's a little second a little and is that is that more rest point for you to go do you know let's have a let's have a little sit down here let's exactly it was carnage the wind and there were people coming down and coughing and spluttering and the wind was epic but then once we left camp 3 that's when we passed the sort of first dead body And then once you get up and through to Camp 4, we turned a corner and we saw that poor guy who was frozen solid.

49:25Alistair Carns: And then you turn into Camp 4 and it's like, it's another world. Desolate, windswept, tents are broken. Tents upside down, ripped. Just, it's, yeah, an unforgiving. People fly around in proper high winds. And then you can see to your left, like Everest, like, and you're like, whoa, it's pretty intimidating. So on Camp 4, are you actually resting for how long? so we we got there mid-afternoon and we rested till 10 o 'clock at night so we had about six six hours sort of just chill time eat drink as much as we did and did you get some shut eye then or not we just trying to but you're trying to this okay you tried at all i couldn't sleep okay um but if anything you're just come on you're just clock watching ready to go and we were setting off at half 10 at night and there's a lot of things happening as well in the background so lucas and the team were there's this the wind and the weather changes so quickly uh you know hourly on every so they're continually monitoring these two weather systems and you're talking you're talking wind at 8 000 8 500 you know 9 000 level because it's the same height as an airliner flies so you've got these different winds and thermals so they've got to get it all right and the wind was actually off so people were saying you know we shouldn't you shouldn't necessarily go but lucas and the team had done such good analysis where they spotted a window for us to get up.

50:41Okay.

50:42Alistair Carns: Which is why, you know, you see all these pictures of queues and we had no one on the mountain. I think we saw one or two other people. Interestingly, the day before there was 200 people, an 11-hour queue, those famous photos of people just waiting to summit. And behind us, sort of a day behind, we could see them visually, about another 150 people. And we were right in this little sweet spot of trying to thread the needle. You know, we had this opportunity to climb. Lucas, you know, radioed through and said, look, the wind will be bad for maybe two or three hours. If you can push through this wind and kind of endeavor through that, the sun will come up, the wind will drop, and you will have the whole ridgeline to yourself.

51:20And it will be epic. And it was. When you talk about ridgeline, let me visualize what you're talking here. Are you talking literally a ridgeline and you're walking on the top of this ridgeline?

51:29Alistair Carns: Yeah, I think 70, 80 degrees either side. Either side just a small carved path. new path and how and what sort of path are you looking at what sort of size path we look on it varies yeah yeah it goes from fairly wide path with a massive drop at 75 degrees either side of you that one slip up you're gone yeah i mean we're connected to the rope still yeah so uh that fixed line again but yeah if you unclip or you know the problem with being hypoxic and having issues at altitude you don't really think with with actual clarity so the opportunity to make mistake is is intensified and heightened pardon the pun yeah for us it's the critical bit in that last sort of leg is you know there's a couple of dead bodies there already yeah you're there's no room for error so if you run out of oxygen or you're you again you make a mistake um you know you ain't you're unlikely you're going to get carried all the way down there or you're going to make it if you're out of oxygen what was really good was and I think at the moment I think the pivotal moment for us was we were sort of halfway up so think about 8 ,500 meters and we just turned off the shoulder we got hit by I want to say 40, 50, 60 mile per hour winds.

52:33Alistair Carns: And these were pretty epic coming up to like up into our faces. And there was a bit of an issue. We've got really warm kit and Staz's suits were super warm. We were stood there for 45 minutes while there was a bit of a discussion going on whether we should continue forward or go back. A couple of Sherpas had to go back and store oxygen and go back to Camp 4. And in that period, none of us got cold, which is amazing. I've done lots of Norway in the Arctic and Minus and it was absolutely perfectly fine. and the team made a call and Garth actually made a call hey let's push on for one more hour and see if you know the weather breaks we pushed on for another hour we rose above the cloud the sun came out the weather cleared and we had the whole ridgeline to ourselves and it was incredible incredible you say we weren't cold I couldn't feel my feet we all bought these amazing socks with little batteries that heat so before we set off I thought oh just push the button and put them on max and I think I got an hour in and my feet I couldn't feel my feet well for the military readers out there I had Arctic socks on and I had 9.99 gloves.

53:31Alistair Carns: It's a treat. You were fine. I should have stuck to what I knew. Pusser provides. So what was that feeling like when you broke through the winds and all of a sudden the sun came out? Because I've seen the photos you put up at the summit which just look amazing. What was that feeling like when you broke through that? Now, did you feel like you were in a safe zone then? I think it was... More of a safe zone. What made... What sort of hit home for me? I wouldn't say it was emotional but it was, it makes you realize what's important, what isn't. Yes. You're on top of the world, you're looking around, there's a few peaks peeking through the clouds, you're the same height as an A-Lion flies, you're the highest point on earth and this makes you a great sense of achievement but also what is important and what isn't.

54:11Yeah.

54:11Alistair Carns: Like we're on the mother of all mountains. Yeah. And I found it hugely satisfying and after such a hard slog to get up there and it was physically a hard slog, huge relief that we'd made in it. I had exactly all those same feelings and then about, We could have spent an hour up there. We spent about 20, 30 minutes up there. And then I had the realisation of we're only halfway. Get back down. And then I very quickly, oh, we need to get back. That was exactly it. Can we just abseal that? Can we not sledge down here? Is it harder to go up or to go down? It's harder to go down. Yeah. I thought it was harder going down.

54:52Probably because of the cumulative fatigue that, you know, and you put so much energy and effort into that summit.

54:59Alistair Carns: There's also a bit, you've got an ascender. So an ascender is, for the readers out there, something you attach, so going up, you attach it to the rope, you push it up and it won't come back down. What was this? So it grips, so it's a middle machine you have, as you are in your hand. You put it, you clip it onto the rope and when you push it up the rope, it grips the rope. Okay. And so you just keep pushing the thing up. So it means if you ever fall, you only ever fall the height of this little. And that's connected to your climbing harness. Yeah. But on the way down, you don't have that. You've just got a carabiner that if you fall, will only stop you at the next strong point.

55:32Alistair Carns: Sometimes these strong points are like 100 and 150 meters away. Right. So you're going to slide for 100 and 100. And the cumulative force that's going to pull with you and pulling everybody else on the rope. So there's much more risk coming down than it was, in my view, going up. Yeah. I'd agree with that. What was quicker? Going up or down? Down. Okay. Yeah. Is that because you were on a mission and go, boys, let's just keep going. Let's get down. Get me home. Yeah. Gave it back to my missus. And naturally it is. It's harder, but you can't. Back to former sevens. Yeah, I was. Yeah, it was a sense.

55:59He was thinking, well, I just want to get on the piss. Come on. Yeah, exactly. Brilliant. Although, you know, he was pretty audacious. Pre, you know, heading out there, seven days was pretty audacious.

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58:04And we did have that in the back of our mind. That wasn't the sole purpose for me. That wasn't the main mission. The main mission was raising veterans' profiles and as much money as possible for veterans. But, you know, we'd kind of put our flag in the snow there. And that, for me, was a big driving factor, you know. And there was a talk the night before we summited about pushing it right and summiting the day after, which would have made eight days or eight and a half days. And another one of those moments of, and thankfully so, of let's make this home.

58:32Alistair Carns: My dad's just kept saying, fortune favors the brave. Fortune favors the brave. Which is one of our straplanes. And, you know, and it's balancing the risk, isn't it? Yeah. And, you know, at the end of the day, it's just a big hill. you know i've got we've all got we had we had an issue on the way down um uh on the way down kev kev gone unfortunately drank some dodgy boy he had stomach cramps on the way down and he actually ran out of oxygen between camp four and camp three and was without oxygen for about 10 to 15 minutes i think and so we're doing a bit of buddy buddy with him and sort of getting around him just making sure he's clipping on and everything else um but that that didn't slow us down but it was um it shows i suppose the lack of room for error right if there is if that had escalated and then I had run out of, I had to go ahead because I'd started to run out of oxygen, stars were sticking with him and you know it sort of showed how the incident pit can happen Why do you think he ran out of oxygen before everyone else?

59:22Alistair Carns: Our bottles were all at different levels so it's not a personal thing it will have just been a fact that we weren't monitoring it enough. It wasn't like he was taking it, he wanted more, no? Maybe not but because he had this water that was, I remember him drinking it in the tent and he had a good chug and went that doesn't taste right and he held it up against the other one and it was cloudy and I was like Where's that from then? Just the ice around it. So just scooping the ice and they boil it and then, you know, boiling obviously kills 99 % of the bacteria but some was in there. Well, see, I was using, I used Pusser's Puri tabs.

59:54Alistair Carns: You know the Puri tabs you get in the jungle? Yeah. The little things, I managed to get hold of some of those. So every one I used a little kind of one seemed to sort me out. Wait, I want to go back, I want to roll back a little bit further. Do you know you're walking past someone and you're seeing someone dead, frozen. Are they actually, are they like in motion frozen? Just frozen? Some are, and some are still connected and clipped. Usually curled up. Yeah, for warmth. But normally they're just kind of curled up, and it's crazy. Crazy. So how far do the Sherpas go then? Can the Sherpas go to the top with you if you pay them?

1:00:27Yeah, they do. Oh, they do? Yeah. Okay.

1:00:29Alistair Carns: So they are behind every summit, really. Yes. They're the individuals that make sure that you don't push the envelope on the wrist. Okay. I mean, the guy we had at Summit at Everest multiple times. he was really experiential IGMF mountain guide very experienced what's the quickest the Sherpa could go up and down in 10 and a half hours from base camp from base to go 10 and a half up and then straight back down 10 and a half hours which is incredible so now knowing what you know if you were to do it exactly the same alongside a Sherpa and they could do it in 10 and a half what do you reckon you could do it in do you reckon you could follow them and go I'm in or do you think that's just way too Physiologically, they are.

1:01:11Alistair Carns: Their relative transport oxygen around the body is different. They are. I mean, you see, interestingly, walking up and down Everest, you see like a whole train of Sherpas coming back and forth, carrying the kit that sustained the tourist industry and others. And they're just doing it. It's good for the economy, but they're also just amazing physical machines. It's like the Gurkhas in the British military. They just have a, they're basically born at that altitude. They have a different physiological makeup. Do you know when you're climbing up and you're roping, you're clamping on, when you're coming down, how are you doing it?

1:01:44Are you abseiling down? Some parts, yeah, you do abseil down. What, going forward or just your normal backwards? Normal, yeah, backwards. And that's when it's super sort of steep, full drop off, 90 degrees drop. But that's a very small percentage. The majority of the time, to Al's point, it's still just as steep and you're clipped onto the rope with your carabiner. Yeah. But the carabiner is kind of just running freely through the rope. Okay. And you're just, your toes are in your boots at the ends and you're just kind of walking down and jamming your toes. Jamming. It's all the way down. Yeah.

1:02:19Delightful. Yeah. Yeah. What was the timings to get from base camp to summit?

1:02:27Alistair Carns: That's a good question. So roughly. We were four days. Okay, four days. And then what was the time is to come back from summit down to base camp? Initially, originally we planned to summit and get all the way back down to base camp, but we stopped off at camp two and we got, so we submitted at quarter past seven in the morning and we returned to camp two the same day, uh, around about, I want to say four or five o 'clock in the afternoon. As you were speeding. And we were tired. So we all just said, look, let's have a few hours here. Um, we had some food, water, and we actually slept there for a few hours.

1:03:00Yeah. And then we woke up at sort of midnight and then we walked through the night, through the Cumbu Icefall, back into base camp. We had around 50 minutes then in base camp, had a little bird bath at the bottom, some food.

1:03:10Alistair Carns: In summer, it was four days up and about a day back. Right, okay. It gave us a day of travel to either side. Okay. And the record would be in what, six and a half days, was that? So we did it six and a half days, yeah. That should hold till next year and then I'm sure someone, I mean, it's not like the record, but it just demonstrates what you can do. How much did it cost for something like this per person to go and do a mission like this? So Firmback gave us a discount because it was for a charitable space and it's about£50 ,000. Yeah, so it's relatively cheap in a grand scheme. Is that right?

1:03:41How much is it normally for something like that? If someone was a normal bod wanting to go up top of Everest? I think it ranges. 100? It depends who you climb with, but it can range. some sort of probably 35 40 000 on a shoestring budget um all the way up to sort of 80s 90s yeah what's the feeling like when you got back down when you actually gone we've completed this apart from getting the flight home to beat the time actually to get back down was a huge sense of relief because i'm we're used to working and thriving in pressure and but there was a lot of eyeballs and opinions on us because of the manner and the style in which we were climbing the whole community and mountaineering community which can be quite fractious uh was was looking at it so i felt a huge sense of relief uh and was thankful that you know we'd managed to complete the mission in the style and the time in which we set out yeah i think um that your mountain

1:04:36Alistair Carns: the mountain community is fractious as an understatement is a lot of competition there i've never seen it you know the military special forces world can be pretty uh competitive but this is a really competitive environment there are a lot of people i wouldn't say wanting us to fail but very critical of how we were doing it. And so when we got back, I thought it was great just to say, you know, we have proven that it can be done. I wouldn't recommend it. It's not a shortcut and it's hard work to do it. But what it does do in particular with the Zenon piece, it highlights that it could potentially reduce the impact of high altitude sickness for a whole range of people from tourists to Sherpas to rescue organizations.

1:05:12Alistair Carns: And I think that's scientific understanding, which is still a lot of analysis to go through. It could be huge. but for me to get to the bottom after doing it was just a huge relief but it hadn't stopped because then we had to get the helicopter flight and we had to get the flights back to make it in time so it sort of went all the way into the hour so you're like hurry up chop up where's the chopper get me out we had what two hours an hour and a half at base camp when you got there so literally had a bird bath changed our clothes packed up our stuff to get taken away and jumped in the helo and went we were really trying to push the kind of envelope here on the science side of things as well at al's point around xenon and xenon gas which cause a a small amount of controversy around why we're doing so why did you go xenon gas compared to another gas and why would it cause controversy as well so xenon gas for people who don't know it's a noble gas it's in the atmosphere it's in car headlights it's normally used for kind of technologies in space um traditionally used in anesthesia so it's been used since the 50s the 60s um it's uh safe there's kind of no um side effects no side effects um normally yeah i'm saying that and part of this speed climb when you're climbing fast and the style in manner which we do with the heights involved we wanted to make this as safe as possible so xenon was introduced you know a couple of years ago lucas and a few other climbers have used xenon uh to great effect um we went over to germany we had sort of a 20 to 30 minute exposure each of zellen guys up to 30 exposure and why we did that was to reduce the risk of altitude sickness it was to reduce the risk of haze and hape so the two probably the three biggest killers on mount everest and why people die is high altitude cerebral edema so that's brain yeah and then high altitude pulmonary edema lungs yeah and there has been again more science and evidence needs to come out um surrounding xenon but there's great sort of um results already being shown that it has effects at a cellular level that reduce these risks so for us it was never about making us quicker it was about improving the safety of the client um looks like putting your seat belt on in your car reality is you're going high fast you need to reduce the impact of high altitude sickness xeon has proven to do it we've we've done it four of us have got to top not one of us had a headache yeah amazing and you know those frozen bodies we talked about most of those will be caused by heart altitude sickness what have happened if you what was there was the what's the summit eight and a half eight uh eight nine basically eight thousand nine and and the and the most dangerous part for you was what what part in terms all of it in terms of like seven thousand to eight nine was eight thousand a couple of points not necessarily the height but just a couple of points on the climb And we looked down and went, I slip here.

1:08:08Alistair Carns: If I put the foot wrong, my crampon comes off. Or if stars ahead of me slips and knocks me off this road, we're all going to the bottom. And, you know, it's in some cases properly lethal. And it's a choice. And that's the key. It's like high altitude mountaineering. It's inherently dangerous. It's a dangerous space to operate and to work in. But that's where the thrill and the joy and that challenge comes from. And I love that. I love being in that environment. I thrive in that. I can see it in both your eyes. got new respect for high altitude mountaineers you know guys you know people who do 14 summits are all the 8 000 meter peaks i mean that's a huge amount of risk they're taking um you know but we i i don't know about stars but i said after done that's me done yeah my highest on hanging up my crumpons throw them away yeah um but yeah i think there's a so we're kind of really at the forward edge of trying to test what how how we can help and support in maybe the future not necessarily the way that everybody should climb in terms of introducing xenon gas but that should be hopefully a prerequisite to improve safety within the mountains and surely that is uh that's a net positive i want to roll back a bit i think you mentioned earlier al about you get to a certain level when you're like this is in real danger zone i think said it was 8 000 7 000 8 000 a normal a normal group going up there at that point are you saying that if someone actually gets to a point where they've broken her leg that's pretty hard for a normal bod well not a normal bod the mountain is to actually bring that person down yeah so we saw one we saw one woman coming down if you remember Stas that she was being taken by a sharper down I think she's broken her leg and she was between camp 4 and camp 3 and the physical epic of getting someone in a stretcher down a 72 gauge slope on a line and lowering them down lowering them down safely is off the scale so I you know the reality is above 8 ,000 meters if you have a serious injury a broken leg or you fall and you break your ankle or something like, you're going to struggle to get all the way to the bottom.

1:10:03Alistair Carns: It's hard enough coming down as an able body individual to do it injured and also take a short break and have the right oxygen because you're going to be going slower is significant. And so, you know, that's why they call it the death zone. Your body's starting to eat itself. You know, it's not going to survive. You can't survive at that height for too long. And if you have some sort of physical injury, it's game over, I would have you. This is pretty epic. It's unbelievable. And it made you think about it. You know, when you're growing up, you know, we've gone into how many firefights, thousands of firefights, and I've never had an issue.

1:10:34Alistair Carns: I think probably once or twice, I've been like, ooh, that's a bit close for comfort. But this one, this one, it was like, you know, if just - There's a lot of time to think about that. Yeah, there's a little bit. You're doing 100 meters an hour in some cases. And so in some, you know, I was literally looking at the guy in front of me. 100 meters in one hour, something is it? 100 vertical meters. Yeah, an hour. And so in some cases, you're just looking at the guy in front and you're copying his steps. because the other bit is crevasses and hollows and just literally following step by step. And you look to the left, you sort of get to the summit, you look to the left, go, gee, if you slip here, there's people that have slipped there.

1:11:07Alistair Carns: It's game over. Yeah. It must have been nice, Les, to actually look around and say, right, I've got four proper men. If anything's going up, I know they've got my back. And that's the beauty of working with veterans, especially from our community. You know for a fact, if anything was to happen, as it happened, a bit of a care for the stomach cramps and oxygen the team me and Stas and Garth rallied around him made sure he was good to go and we got him down to the camp no problem at all you know if something goes wrong you guys are going to have a bad thing that was a huge safety blanket for me personally mentally that was knowing you got three fellas either side yeah 100 % the prerequisite is stop Stas as banter I do it in three days next what's the what's the score you know when Kev you said he got stomach cramps yes you know being going on a day or something you have a bad bit of food a second you get stomach cramp that is brutal he's getting stomach cramp at what he was where was he when he got stomach cramp amazing so he he drank that water at camp four before the summit and he sort of didn't feel the effects too much but thought that's something right okay ditch that we did the summit on the way down he's now he's starting to dry retch he's now starting his body starting to feel the effects of drinking this fucking you know contaminated water that's the first one that was the first one there oh shit the f-bomb come out sorry so he started to feel these effects what did we say before sorry what did we say before right I think the last one we did with the F-bombs were just everywhere and they go right enough to put my best behaviour no swearing thinking of Nan thinking of Nan put a photo your Nan's behind you your Nan's behind you go back to his stomach cramps how he's feeling he's coming down Charles but he's hard enough as it is being able-bodied being fit feeling strong or you know fatigued but feeling good which we all were and as we start coming down from sort of camp four to camp three I think it's when it really hit Kev.

1:12:53You know, he's sweating. He's probably sucking more oxygen. His body's working two, three times harder than all of us. Wobbling on. I went up to sort of grab a hold of him and his legs shaking. And he's dry wretched. His body's trying to, you know, bring something up. There's nothing to bring up. It was difficult, you know, for him. But for him to push through that was a real testament to his character and who he was. Most people would have just laid down and, oh, I need to stay here for a night. and he didn't

1:13:22Alistair Carns: we got around him Garth came down and helped out Stas was clipping on and off I buddied up with him so I clipped onto his harness and we did a bit of oxygen he's trying to make his life easier and we got him down to camp 3 but for him to complete that while being in such a state was just a testament to his his resolve what was his mind strength like at that point was he like boys I'm in proper trouble I need help or was he just like what was it how was he reacting super graceful so he was you know he was hanging out but on the same hand he was like oh thanks for helping thanks for helping you know we'll get cam 3 and I kept lying to him I was saying see that guy down the thing is I was I was believing that as well is it I was looking over brilliant and then I get much further over that I was like is this the next down you just need to get to him and it'll be alright he was like okay got it how old are the other two leads are they in their 40s Kev's what 51 I think oh is he 54 I think he's a bit older it's great and you boys 41 41 45 hard and paper round was there any was there any was there any part of that trip that you thought was more scarier than being in Afghan or all the crazy countries you've fought for your country in I so I'll be really like honest on this like in the military in a firefight like in some of the worst firefights you could possibly imagine I'm absolutely fine.

1:14:51Alistair Carns: 90 % of it's under control. I know what I'm doing. I've got the team around me. I've usually got a good idea. You know, in this environment, you've got no control over the weather, no control over the altitude. You take your oxygen mask off for more than five minutes, you're going to go man down. And if you make a wrong footstep, you're going the wrong way fast. So I prefer, I would prefer being in Afghanistan any day of the week personally. That's why my, you know, greatest respect to these high altitude mountaineers and the sherpas who do this day and day yeah um but maybe that's a new stairs same same really um felt far more at ease and uh comfort with a with a weapon system in my hand and sort of surrounded by everything else and people but it's uh there's so many things that are just out of your control and it can go very quickly very you know very wrong very very quickly um yeah avalanches etc what did you want to get out of this mission i i wanted people to watch this, to see this and see veterans in a positive light.

1:15:49Alistair Carns: To see that when you put a team of people together they can achieve anything. To get that positivity and aura around veterans. And the second one was to raise resources for bereaved children in particular. For me that was very powerful. Sorry, to raise money for bereaved children. So those individuals that have been left behind when individuals have been killed or wounded in combat and veterans charities. So basically the resource piece of this was, hey, if you're interested and you're sort of proud of what we're doing, see if you can throw a pound or five pounds into them. Okay. And we'll give it to a charity that does a fantastic job looking after those that have been left behind.

1:16:27That was the kind of, yeah, for me, it was kind of multifaceted, multilayered. The main mission and focus was that. And that's what was driving everything. We had that shared vision and mission, which just like the old days, that's what we're all pushing and pulling, like I said earlier, in the same direction, which was something that's bigger and better than yourself. And then for me personally as well, I had, you know, through dark, the opportunity. I'm very, very thankful and grateful for that opportunity to not just stand by our kit, but stand in it and test it in the extremes. And then also as a father, having three boys, you know, Lucas, who's 13, Albie, who's eight, and Huey, who's four, for me to show them that anything is possible.

1:17:09I'm not telling them to go and join the military or special forces or climb Mount Everest. That's extreme. But for me, I wanted to inspire them and inspire them through action. And it wasn't just the climb itself. It was also them seeing me train every day for something, you know, and I think that was important for me as well. Personally, I really tried a few things that were, you know, when things get hard and it's miserable and you have to really dig deep, you have to look for the other than Bournemouth Sevens. there's other things that are driving you

1:17:40Alistair Carns: and for me that was I think that's really important I think that inspirational but you know if you put your mind to something you can achieve it 100 % and if you it's really difficult but if you break it down into bite sized chunks you can achieve it my interest in my boys my kids were more worried about this than they were on any one of my Afghan tours maybe that's because they don't necessarily know or can relate to what was going on in Afghanistan, Africa or wherever else but on this one they could see it live on sort of Instagram everything else so they were far more concerned so hopefully what inspired them to you know aim high and i want to say thank you as well we've had so many amazing amazing positive messages i landed back a good thing to be off the phone off the grid for sort of four or five days and my phone was just blowing up and the messages were unbelievable made me feel really proud um not just as an individual but collectively little things what we did pound five pound from people saying, hey, really inspirational, love the charitable, you know, please go for it.

1:18:37So anyone listening out there, Al, where can people put money into now to say, well, I'm going to do a donation? Where can they go to?

1:18:45Alistair Carns: Yeah, so you can Google search Mission Everest and we've got a Give Wheel donation page. Brilliant. We're about, I think, about£90 ,000 so far. We're going to try and get as close to, you know, a million, half a million as we can. We've got six months of fundraising, just a couple of events. Second phase of the mission, though. We're into kind of corporate dinners, speaking events, we're selling our souls, selling anything, to really hit this£1 million goal. And what you sat on today, 98? About 98. 98 grand, and the goal is to get to the million within the year. Yeah. So anyone out there, just type in Mission Everest, bang, bang, put money on, job done.

1:19:22Bound, five pound, whatever. Whatever you want, under quit, grand. It all helps, and it is massively appreciated. Yeah. Laz, this has been fascinating. I've loved this.

1:19:31Alistair Carns: That's been great. Thank you for having me. Yeah, I've really, really enjoyed this. Amazing. I want to know what the feeling is like when now you've come back then, because we were chatting earlier, as you were on Sky TV and lots of channels I wanted to speak to you. Obviously, yourself being an MP now, your profile has gone from military profile to a national profile. Are you enjoying, not the limelight, are you enjoying the recognition? I'm enjoying getting the message out. So the message for veterans, you're repeating that line and obviously the fundraising pieces. It's really, there's one more bit as well.

1:20:02Alistair Carns: I know a lot of listeners are sort of roll their eyes at this one, but the reality is almost all the MPs, I'm new to politics, I'm a year in, but almost all the MPs I've met are trying to do the right thing. Yes. They're trying to make the country better in their way. They may want a different route to get there, may want slightly different outcomes, but they're pretty brave in stepping into the limelight and they get a lot of flack. And so, you know, by doing this as an MP as well, it demonstrates, I think, to hopefully some of the population that MPs are humans as well. Yeah, okay. they can they can go bigger but if you were my mp and and after this conversation now i'd be like yeah what he was what he says goes i've got his back i'm fully supportive of you 100 i can feel it i know it bam there's no there's no ifs or buts you come from the military you're very well respected one of the most respected military people in the world not just the uk and actually if you say you're going to do something you'll do it well what i'm finding at the moment i don't know politics but i look into some politicians who speak i just think they're just talking and talking talking stuff doesn't happen and i think that's what's really frustrating the company the country at the moment.

1:21:00Alistair Carns: Yeah. Yeah. And I go back to that, you know, short-term fix and the longer-term piece. It does take time to make big policy changes. Do you... Go on. Well, I just... You know, a lot of them... My view is, you know, this government's come in. We've delivered a ton of change. Sometimes, and unfortunately, the population today take a large chunk of their information for very small sections of information feeds, primarily social media. And interestingly, if you look at a lot of the policies being pushed by others, and if you go below it, you scratch below the surface, you realize that one is either unaffordable or unachievable.

1:21:39It's true. And the more I've looked into this, I don't like politics whatsoever. But when I'm seeing, as a leader myself, when I'm seeing the leaders I know who I fully respect, whether it's in business, whether it's in military, whether it's in sport, and I fully respect, I'm fully behind. But someone who's in charge of your country, I have respect for. I find that very difficult. And I think it's just speeding that process up at the moment, which is infuriating.

1:22:00Alistair Carns: Yeah. There's two interesting points on that. I don't want to diverge too much into the Baltics, but after protecting democracy for so long, to then go and see democracy in action was a huge privilege. So I went to the count in Birmingham, you know, the count and all the ballots and stuff. It was amazing to see. I recommend anyone who can go see that, see it because this country has something great, which is the joy of democracy. I got a text from Keira Starmer two days ago, saying hey listen super proud of everything you've achieved thank you for doing for what you're doing the money's going to go a long way um you know please come and talk to me and tell me the story about it when you got back and i thought that was a really nice touch from the prime minister to send to us to say thanks to the collective team yeah okay um you know honor to receive that's nice to hear what i would say is again i go back to this point i made earlier is you know the line that you sometimes get on the surface once you go below it and you see the detail yeah you realize there's actually very little wriggle room.

1:22:52Alistair Carns: You know, there's a lot of, a lot of people say there's a lot of cross-party disagreement. Yes. Interestingly, there's a lot of party agreement. Agreement, okay. You don't get to see that bit though. No, you don't. And so, in a lot of these big decisions, there's actually not a huge amount of wriggle room on the margins. And what I would say is what we've done as a government over the last nine, 10 months, I've been really proud of. There's a long way to go. And 10 months in, you know, it's a short period of time. We've got five years to run. And I think we're going to see much more great change coming for the country.

1:23:24I've got a funny feeling that the more people know about you and the more people get to hear you and your voice and everything like that, is there any chance you're going for prime minister one day?

1:23:33Alistair Carns: No, no. What I want to do, as I said before, is change stuff in particular for defence. There's three things I'm really interested in. One is making the nation as healthy as it can be. I think it reduces the burden in the NHS and makes us healthier and happier both mentally and physically. The second one is making us an education superpower. I come from a really sort of average background, the edge of a council of state, great upbringing, but spent a normal school. I want to make sure that everybody gets the opportunity, irrelevant of where they come from, not into this entitlement thing. And the third one is I want to make sure we're secure, safe and secure as we move forward, because I think we're moving into a really dangerous world.

1:24:10Alistair Carns: Yeah. So I think with the big things, and if I can change a dial by 5 % of my level, that translates to 25, 50 % down at the bottom. That's enough to become prime minister, isn't it? definitely not just a quick just a quick one there like going back are you in charge of protecting our borders if we want if we don't want dinghies coming to our country so from from our ministry defense perspective no no that's a broader system but it's a broader okay um and that that again is a very very complex issue full of legal um uh it's just not as simple as some people want to make it think um and so you know these are really difficult decisions leadership is difficult this space because there's all sorts of international law and other rules and regulations.

1:24:50Alistair Carns: That's right. It really is. I mean, again, I don't want to go into this too much, but on the same hand, when I was in the military, he had a look at how we can help, not to say secure borders, but help with the immigration issue, and it's deeply complex and multifaceted. What I would say is the team they're looking at now are doing a really good job, and they've actually cut it down significantly in the last six, seven months. A long way to go, though. Interesting. Okay. That's coming from your mouth. That's really interesting. gives me hope. We're getting there. We're getting there. And this is a key bit, you know, hope.

1:25:24Alistair Carns: Hope is, I always say, a vision without a plan is a dream. Yes. We've got a good plan. We're setting it in place really early days. Let's run it out and, you know, mark us by the facts and figures at the end of it. Does it matter to you whether it's labor, reform, conservative? The reason I empower labor is the social mobility. Okay. Labor is the part that gives everyone a chance. Okay. And, you know, as I say, I come from a pretty average background. and I've seen people left and right, I mean, some cases who come from a more privileged back then, perhaps get a leg up. And I think actually we should, it should be an even playing field at the very start.

1:26:00Alistair Carns: We should give everybody the opportunity because this great nation is full of amazing people. Absolutely. Who can deliver amazing things. They just need the opportunity to get up and out and, and get at it. Absolutely. And it needs a big boost in the business and the entrepreneurial world as well, which I could go into, but I won't speak about it because my world, but that's a whole new podcast. Stas, how's your life? What's your life moving forwards now? Oh gosh, I think I had a bit of, are you still not sleeping in the tent, Al? Stockholm Syndrome. I kicked that touch immediately. Wait a minute, what?

1:26:27You sent yours back? It's because it happened so quick, obviously a lot of planning, a lot of training before, but the actual time on task was so short. We come back and that's kind of momentum. This is why we're keen to continue this, to continue to push the positive message around veterans and donations. But for me personally now, it's back to business, back to being a husband, a father, and a co-founder of ThruDark. Near, I've got a mountain marathon, which I'm regretting signing up for before I went up in the Lake District. Yeah, deep joy. And then it's just, for me, it's all focused on business and family and friends.

1:27:04And just working on myself, trying to be better, better, better, better, all the time. Gentlemen, absolutely loved it. Thank you, Dave. Absolutely loved this one. this is yeah this is a privilege to listen to both of you proper proper men thank you very much for making the effort appreciate that you're a good man cheers oh you're a good man thanks oh boys my god that was outstanding thank you thank you so much thanks mum it was good that's 300 odd yeah but it was just a chat great question yeah I didn't think it's just stuff that people want to know yeah you know you kind of frame it really well oh man I loved that yeah dragon red oh amazing one f-bomb as well one f-bomb you done well I had to bring it up but you went yeah you done well anyone out there we need to find the episode the last episode we're going to find out how many f-bombs are in there oh my god yeah he was very yeah oh mate that was brilliant it was good yeah really good I really enjoyed that fascinating hi guys I really hope you enjoyed that as much as I did Can you do us a favor and leave us a review as it massively helps us grow the show?

1:28:16Cheers, guys.

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