FOUNDER #48. The Man Who Wrote The Book 'Legacy' & Sold 1 MILLION Books On Culture - James Kerr

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3:20That's Q-U-O.com slash tech. Awareness is about the control of attention. Where are you putting your attention? Is it signal or noise? Is it something that makes a difference or is it the distraction? So that's the DNA of for anyone who is successful because it gives you agency. We want mastery, autonomy and relatedness. That's the chemical state that leads to flow. Now, if as a leader we can create those conditions, then you're starting to create the conditions in which people perform. So what did you see in the New Zealand squad when you were there? What did you notice with the culture when you went into that environment?

3:55You know, there are varying levels of emotional intelligence. How do leaders lead? How do you create the conditions for high performance? We're not looking for men of discipline. We're looking for men of self-discipline. We have to lead ourselves before we can lead anyone else. Wayne Smith from the All Blacks said people rise to a challenge if it's their challenge. No one does what they're told, they do what they tell themselves. The difference between bad teams and good teams is in good teams the stuff that needs to get said can get said. Avoidance of accountability is poison. But there's no guarantees of how a game will end.

4:26We create that game in the action of playing it. When you look in, do you think England rugby has got the culture right? Um...

5:03and check out the three-minute video. We've also left the link below as well. James, welcome to the show. Dodge, good to be here. Yeah, mate, very much looking forward to this one. Let's roll all the way back. What inspired you to write the book Legacy? Well, I'm a Kiwi. I'm a boy from New Zealand. I live in the UK now and have for a long time, but New Zealand is always home, or at least the All Blacks are my home team. And so I think there was a natural curiosity. I also found a parallel with the work that I was doing outside sport in terms of how the leaders lead, how do you create the conditions for high performance, how do you set the right standards, what's the ethos and the story, what are the rituals and the beliefs.

5:52and so the All Blacks, you know, A, they're my team, B, they're arguably the most successful sports team, you know, in human history and third, they're a fantastic case study of how to turn the ship around, how to turn a culture that had kind of seen better days, if you like, give it a good scrub, get it back on its feet, reboot and repurpose and kind of refit it to create success. And really that was the idea behind the book. How did you open the door then to go and be with the All Blacks for five weeks in 2010? Well, there was a book before the book, actually. I did a book called Mana with the All Blacks.

6:40Now, mana is sort of the spirit inside and respect and authority. and it's a Pacific, a Maori word. And we wanted to sort of go inside and look at the mana of the team. And I worked with a photographer, a guy called Nick Danziger, old school, black and white, photojournalist type. And we went in and spent kind of a test cycle with the team ready to help it reconnect with New Zealand public. And, of course, it was a great adventure for us. And the relationships that took to get to the stage of legacy came from that. So I sort of had a trial run in a while. And that gave me an opportunity to sort of see what those connections were between, I guess, the world of business and the world of sport.

7:38I wanted to be a translator between those two worlds. And they're very, very similar. Well, I would say the analogies don't hold up. You know, rugby isn't business. Yes. Rugby has, you know, 80 minutes and a final whistle and business never does. But the principles at play inside all groups are the same. You know, there's a great line from Bill Burnback, an advertising guy, who said, technology changes everything but people remain the same. Yeah. And I think it's kind of scale changes everything, but people remain the same. Whether it's 15 guys on a rugby team or 1 ,500 guys in an organization or 150 ,000 humans in an organization, not just guys.

8:26The principles about the way we work together, why we work, the qualities that it takes to be a good leader and follower because they're part of the same function, I think. The power of language. That's the key. Yeah. It's one of the keys, the power of language. Absolutely. You know, words create worlds. Words are your wand. Yeah, words are your wand. You know, one of the stories I talk about or ideas I talk about in Legacy is the Australian Aboriginal people, the Koori people, when they go walkabout, or we're many of the tribes, there are many different tribes, but when they go walkabout, they learn the songs on the kind of lap of their elders as they grow up.

9:16And then they, as young men, it's men doing it, they set out and they set out along what are called songlines. and songlines are the dream lines and they sing as they go. And the belief in that culture is that they sing the world into existence. That in the song is the world, is the creation. And if you take that idea, I think that's very true of just about everything. We have to have an idea, an articulation, clarity. Even the word idea is interesting. It comes from the idea, the route to see. To have an idea is to see what's possible, to see the future. If you can't see, you can't make it happen.

10:04You can't be it. You can't make it happen. Yeah. You can't make it happen. You really need, and the more you can visualize to realize, the more powerful it is. So in some of the work I do with teams, visualization is a part of it. It's a big part. And I don't think people talk about it enough. No, and visualisation people, you know, I think there's really interesting work that's been done with sport that could apply more across in other domains, if you like. In visualisation we go, well, just paint a picture of the future. See what it's like to win or to… Smell, feel, touch. But it's exactly, you know, pet lap it's called.

10:45Do you get into what's the perspective on it? What's the tempo of it? what's the smell of it, what's the lived experience of that thing that you are wanting to have come about. And the more we can experience it, make it visceral and vivid, the more visceral and vivid it will become. But it's the same in business. It's the same in... I go to the end, what does it feel like, what does it look like, how do I want to see it, how do I want to visualize it, what does that look like in x amount of years and then i work backwards yeah to build that business yeah but it's the same as in sport that's why sport and business is very similar if you are from that sports culture yeah or why human beings are similar you know i think we all need that kind of program we need to almost need to program ourselves and go right well what do we stand for yeah like you know on a fundamental level what are our bedrock beliefs what are yours oh good I hadn't finished my paragraph, but what am I?

11:54Well, my surname is Kerr, so I took my own medicine, and with my family we did a kind of identity piece. And we took K-E-R-R as the key word. So K is for kindness. You know, treat people well. I think it was Aldous Huxley said, you know, he'd been through 40 years of being asked what really matters and he was embarrassed to say that the best he could come up with is kindness. You know? People see that as a weakness, but it's not. They do, but it's not. It's not at all. Be strong enough to be soft. Yes. You know? The second is exploration. Lovely. The KE, curiosity. Curiosity, yep. Follow your curiosity.

12:49Then responsibility, ownership. I mean, the number one principle, I think, in any successful team is accountability. Accountability, yep. You know, ownership. I got this. It's on me. I screwed up. Whatever it takes. But own your stuff. It takes a strong person to do that. And when you do hold your hands up, it makes life so much easier. Again, exactly. I fucked up, sorry. Sorry. Straight away, bam, people have respect. How do I make it good? Agree. You know, rather than, no, I didn't do anything. You know, avoidance of accountability is poison. Yeah. And then the final is respect, which is slightly different to kindness.

13:30I think respect is actually about, you know, respect for… You have to earn respect. Yeah, you have to earn respect and also respect for what is and just for human life, you know. and for the world that we live in and all of that. So what we have found as a family is it's a really good prism to put some decisions through. Are we being kind to each other? Families aren't always. I know some families very well that really aren't, but we want to be. And it's not always easy because we're short-tempered and short of sleep and all of that. Exploration. Well, we're just about to go off to Luxor in Egypt.

14:18And we could go to a beach, but it's nice to go somewhere that we wouldn't otherwise see and really explore. Really remember, yeah. Responsibility, you know, make your bed. You know, deal with your stuff. That's such a simple thing to do, but it has such an impact on life. It has a real impact on life. Huge impact. I make my boy do it every day. Make your bed. Yeah, yeah. It sets your day straight away. Well, it's the Admiral McChrystal Seals thing. Yeah, that's right. And it's, you know, one small victory. You know, big victories are lots of small victories. And so just trying, and so, which is really about, you know, what would be called an ethos.

15:00An ethos means character. Or, you know, in the ancient Greek it's related to a character, that kind of idea of virtue and what we stand for. and what we won't stand for. And so I think if words create worlds, it's a pretty good idea to start articulating what they might be personally and organisationally and as a team or as a family. If your words are optimistic, you're going to live a good life. If your words are pessimistic, you can go the other way as well. you know I can be in a room and someone speaking straight away I know what their mindset's like just by their words yeah yeah people don't I don't think people realise no no well we you know we grow up with the illusion that we are our thoughts but we're not our thoughts you know we're the observer of those thoughts that's right and awareness if we think of the control of it the mental game is about the control of attention Where are you putting your attention?

16:08Is it signal or noise? Is it something that makes a difference or is it the distraction? Is your attention on task? Is your attention in this moment? Or are you thinking about, great, we've already won this. I'm going to get a knighthood. But are you in the moment, in the here and now, here and now? Because we're not our thoughts. and our thoughts, if we identify too readily with our thoughts, then they create us. And a lot of them are reactions. They're bad habits that we've learned in the past. They reckon the average is 60 ,000 thoughts a day. Yeah. And if you're not in control of your emotions and understand your emotions, anger, happiness, whatever it may be, and your mind isn't stronger than your emotions, you can get yourself into trouble.

17:00Yeah. Big trouble. And look, you know, we lead from within. We have to lead ourselves before we can lead anyone else. And even the word emotional regulation or self-regulation, regulation comes from region, comes from king. So it comes from king? Well, regulate, reg, reg. You know, it comes from king. It's to rule our emotion. Yeah. If we want to lead anywhere else, surely we have to be able to lead ourselves. And so the mental game, if you like, that mindset, you know, mindset's a skill set. You know, we can learn a lot of that stuff. Sometimes it gets too much at all, you know, there'll be a tsunami of emotion and it'll take us over.

17:50But if we learn how to recognize what's coming and realize the thoughts and our feelings that are attached to it and our soul, if you like, different all of them are different things and to clear up any trauma that might have gone on your childhood sure i'm not this is this is massive that a lot of adults don't clear up the trauma sure sure to then move forward to really understand triggers and so on and listen it's it's let's not be glib it's not easy right some of the you know this is for all of us our life's work doesn't get any easier they say about riding a bike it gets faster but it doesn't get any easier riding a bike you get fitter, you just get faster it still hurts the same thing I think with

18:47the mental game the mental work which is really an emotional or spiritual even work, never really ends we know that is there are different life phases that we go through. Some of it's about performing under pressure. Some of it's about letting go. Letting go of that pressure. Letting go of that pressure, letting go of that dream and focusing on a new one, being able to process our life as we live it. I really enjoy pressure personally. I think there may be a time when you go, do you know what, I'm happy to ease off on the pressure. You just mentioned a minute ago, I buzz off pressure, I buzz off risk.

19:25and the things we were speaking earlier and I was brought up on respect and kindness and curiosity and optimism. They're gifts from your mum and dad. They are. Huge gifts and self-belief. They allow you to go and make mistakes. Go for it son, go for it, go for it. That's how I was brought up in living above pubs in London. It was that freedom to have that and I passed that on to my boy now who's 12 years old and these are wonderful gifts that parents can pass down but if you don't give your kids those opportunities because your parents pass it down to you. You're just passing it down. Yeah, yeah.

19:59Do you get me? Yeah, yeah. So being intentional, I guess, or deliberate. But what we're talking about, again, is if we think about accountability, we talked about, the flip side of that is autonomy. And if we take your background, saying, you know, growing up above the pub, chances are you had a high degree of autonomy, just sort it out, do your stuff. but also you know don't nick from the till you know tidy up after yourself you know you've got to the more autonomy the more you know the more accountability the more autonomy you demand the more accountability you must demand of yourself I think and read the room and read the room and that's really leadership I think because we all have an existential freedom we can do whatever we want we might not feel like it but we can but then that comes to discipline but then we need the discipline so one of my favourite quotes from the high performance realm is from the early days of the commandos and what became the Special Boat Service was a guy called Roger Courtney and he founded what is now the Special Boat Service and he had a quote, which is, I think they stuck it on the door for recruitment, which was, we're not looking for men of discipline.

21:28We're looking for men of self-discipline. Like discipline, you know what the right, you know you can do what you're told. Well, that's only half the job. The half job is to know the right thing to do and then to do it. And of course, that's the DNA of anyone who is successful because it gives you agency. You know, it gives you a problem, a solution-seeking mindset, right? When you go after it, whatever it is for you. But that takes self-discipline because success is boring sometimes, scary. You know, it's unknown and it's definitely not a straight line and you're going to take some hits along the way.

22:12so the self-discipline to just keep on doing what it takes you know fetch wood carry water or whatever the you know wax on wax off whatever it is to do the work like the the consistency is the hard part but consistency we were talking before about the podcast business you need to consistently post and keep it going and do it every single day even if you know even if no one's listening for a while yeah because incrementally you know the the miracle of compounding interest that's right and the hockey stick and the hockey stick but like any like any business that we're talking before i know it takes a thousand days yeah so my going into this podcast six years ago i was like i've got a thousand days i don't want to know if no one's listening or your mom's someone your mum's writing your review and your mate's listening but no one else is listening all of a sudden just keep going keep going keep going keep going keep going and it's the tap tap tap tap tap tap or jab jab jab right hook and that that's what wins in business yeah yeah and sport in in the san antonio spurs call it pounding the rock okay and it comes from a stone you know the stone mason's adage which is you know take a take a piece of marble take a hammer and a chisel and start tapping away nothing will happen 50 blows nothing will happen 75 blows nothing will happen but on the 100th blow it splits perfectly you get your breakthrough result yeah but it wasn't the it wasn't the 99 blows that took to get there but that's the set that's probably the same as quitting on a thursday where your breakthrough could be the friday yeah exactly yeah exactly you know by the end of this podcast i'll stop hitting the microphone that's my tap tap tap um so so tell me tell me the experience you had working with the all blacks in 2010 what did you notice with the culture when you went into that environment um you know it took a lot of negotiating to to get in there and the first my memory now is one of of real inclusive inclusivity and i think that speaks to something that I've found to be true in Special Force outfits or most great teams is there's an openness and a kindness and an informality that operates in those environments.

24:41And without sounding like an old softie, I think it's kind of about love. And, you know, small L love, I don't know, big L love, whatever it is that you know somebody said something very smart in one of those environments you don't have to like everyone but you have to love them and you go well why is that important well because love is a deep bond and cohesion is hugely important in any group you go out of your way for people you love you serve people who you love you contribute to them you're loyal you'll die for them you know if you think about it there aren't many forces in this world that we would die for.

25:25So it's not a soft old hippie concept, love. It's exactly the opposite. You know, our lives, you know, we go through massive upheaval for love. We travel to different continents. We take low-paying jobs just because we love them. You know, we nurse people when they're sick because we love them. so that's one aspect of love the other aspect of love is if you think about it love is the optimum conditions for growth we talked about kindness we talked about gratitude they're all aspects of kind of love and you think well as babies we grew up most of us hopefully in a loving environment where we were unconditionally accepted we felt that we belonged mistakes were forgiven as long as they were moving in the right direction we could put our head above the parapet and not live in a threat state and high performing environments any good team any good family if you are under threat if you have high adrenaline, high cortisol bubbling under, you'll play not to lose, right?

26:48Play not to lose. You'll keep your head down. You'll kind of do the job, but you won't take any risks, right? You're not going to make yourself vulnerable. You're not going to connect any more than you have to. And unfortunately, a lot of work environments are like that. You know, somebody figured leadership was like, you know, from an old war movie with a screaming sergeant major. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? And that somehow, you know, treating mean, keeping keen is a good leadership strategy. Right? But what that does is it creates a climate, an emotional climate that represses and suppresses everybody.

27:29So, you know, we talk about being above the line. and it's a concept that's been around but but either below the line high adrenaline high cortisol low dopamine low serotonin low oxytocin right you get a good place that's not a good place to be you're playing you're avoidant yeah you're you're stressed like you talked about there's a difference between pressure and stress right you know pressure is exciting stress just wears you out stress links to heart disease and you know all all the negativity all all of that But you get above the line and you get into a non-threat state and you get into a state where it's a challenge, not a threat.

28:10It's called a challenge state. It's an appropriate challenge. Your cortisol drops. Your adrenaline isn't spiking. There's space for serotonin and oxytocin and dopamine to do their thing. Serotonin, you can bring some joy. Oxytocin, you do it together. You're connected. it's the love drug and dopamine is about reward it's not the it's about seeking the reward so it's more enterprising it's what you're trying to find make something happen now that's an optimum performance state and that leads to flow right that leads to the state of flow that's like the chemical cocktail i'm roughing it out but you know what i mean um that that's the chemical state that that leads to flow.

29:00Now, flow is an optimum performance state, right? So if you want to create the conditions for people to perform, you want them to be above the line. Yes. Now, above the line, we know from self-determination theory, we want mastery, autonomy, and relatedness, for instance. You know, we want mastery. Good people want to be good at the thing they want to be good at. Autonomy. no one wants to be micromanaged you know multiplied by accountability and relatedness you know connected to good people doing good work what I've called a meaningful role in something meaningful now if you can create those conditions that's a great line, hold on to that a meaningful role in something meaningful something meaningful, yeah so we want a meaningful role, we want our contribution to be valued, to be seen, heard and valued in simplistic terms.

30:00You know, we want to feel that our life's not passing us by, that we're up to the task. We want to challenge ourselves appropriately, but not to something that's meaningless to us. It also has to have some sort of objective meaning, you know, make a difference in people's lives or just a cool thing to be part of, you know. Now, if as a leader we can create those conditions of mastery, you know, the young intern has a pathway to brilliance. Autonomy, I don't know the answer. You tell me. You crack on, yeah. Crack on, man. Tell me when you need some support. Yeah. And relatedness, we're in this together for the right reasons.

30:43Then you're starting to again create the conditions in which people perform. so you know belonging safety autonomy multiplied by accountability being valued seen heard and valued being you know so active listening becomes an important component of that kind of environment co-creation becomes hugely important you know and there's other aspects clarity you know connection the relatedness piece but if you add up all those together and you're an employee and you get paid well you've hit the jackpot oh you've hit the jackpot yeah if as an entrepreneur who's hired hundreds of people over the years if you can create that environment with my festival environment with my other businesses you've hit the jackpot you've hit the jackpot because you've created meaning for people absolutely but it also allows you as the founder of the company to gently step back and give people the freedom to crack on and and go for it and i i like to create many entrepreneurs within the business yeah you're an entrepreneur there's no financial risk for you so go and have fun go and do it make your own mistakes and if you've got an idea roll with it yeah exactly and and so that um so the autonomy piece if you like um you say an autonomy as in freedom well disciplined discipline freedom there's a great line from special forces they talk about loyal dissent you'll be loyal to the mission but your job is to question it as well and it's that balance of what's good for the team so the leader then becomes a kind of visionary in chief needs to paint a vivid picture we talked about that vivid picture if you like needs to create that vivid picture out there in the front that we know we're all after we're going after that thing whatever that is and those words or that picture can create that world, right?

32:43So the doctrine of it is, in military terms, it's called Mission Command, famously called Mission Command. And Mission Command was developed in the early days of Germany, post-Prussia Germany, and they wanted to get rid of the hierarchical nature of the sort of Prussian operations that had lost to Napoleon. and they realised that Napoleon's advantage was the independence of movement of all of his generals. And so they created a doctrine called mission command that was, my simplistic way of putting it is, you know, you recruit the right people, recruit on talent, not just, on character, not just talent.

33:27Yeah, yeah, yeah. You teach them in the right way so they have the capability. So they have the character, sorry again, I've done it again, The character, you've got the capability, you've trained them, they've got the skill set. You've resourced them, right, so they have the capacity, there are enough of them, and they've got the ammunition and the food. And then you command them in a certain way, and the command is what's known in America as the commander's intent, that in order to, you know, we're going to attack that bridge in order to take the city. Yes. Now, the thing is that that bridge may not need attacking.

34:11And so that's the front line decides that. And they might go, well, in order to take the city, but if we do that, we'll get to home. So let's just take the city. Yeah, okay. So that's the autonomy. So they have a voice. So they have a voice. Well, they have responsibility. So it's the front line, yeah. You know, they get to choose. So did you notice this in the New Zealand rugby team? Well, interesting, the New Zealand rugby team, obviously it's a scaled-down version of it, but the idea that leaders create leaders. Wayne Smith from the All Black Setup has a great line. He says he wanted to create leaders who create leaders who create leaders.

34:50So that even the most junior player is able to make what I call strategic decisions on a tactical level. They know the game. They know the goal and they know their role. And they're okay to make decisions. So if it's a halfback, a tap and go. Just have a crack. Yeah, go. Have a go. So it's a subtle, it's different obviously because you're not talking companies of men or organisations of human beings. What you're talking about is 15 guys on a footy field. but there is a mindset about that comes with the freedom to express yourself to have a crack that I think is incredibly important in any environment you know it's really important in a family otherwise no one's you know no one's going to learn the piano if they if they're not terrible to begin with you know no one's going to go out on a rugby field and have a tap and go if they think they're going to get a bollocking at half time yeah yeah yeah but that happens a lot I It happens all the time.

35:56Yeah, I agree. It happens, you know, in football, soccer, happens all the time. You know, there can be a, you know, there are varying levels of emotional intelligence within the coaching fraternity within football. You know, there are screamers, but screamers, they get respect, but they don't build love. and I mean there was a really interesting study done in the North Sea on leadership styles and its impact on people taking responsibility beneath them because North Sea that had oil rig disasters and they really studied it and it's a perfect study because they're oil rigs, there's nothing else going on and three different leadership styles, kind of authoritarian, very hierarchical you know the hair dryer all of that um authoritative which is more what i call a kind of guide at the side you know here's my knowledge i'm here to guide you through it but it's over to you much more empowering and then a laissez-faire which is whatever you think is right now laissez-faire didn't do very well because people just smoke cigarettes and didn't do anything took advantage Yeah, yeah.

37:16Authoritarian didn't do very well because people just hid. Disrespect, yeah. Well, and then smoking in the bike sheds and disrespect. Yeah, I mean, you know, you get rebellion. Yeah. Or hiding, at least. So in the middle, the sort of the guide at the side, all the safety incidences went to zero. So you could put an arm around someone? Well, they could put their head up. Yeah. And then they're walking along a corridor and they see something that doesn't quite look right and they go, it's on me, I'm going to fix that. Or, hey, mate, that's not a very good idea to sail into that storm. They feel free to express themselves to say what needs to be said.

37:56And I'd say the difference between bad teams and good teams is in good teams the stuff that needs to get said can get said. All the work into psychological safety showed that the teams the best teams had the most problems and it wasn't that the other teams didn't have problems it was in the best teams people were prepared to engage with them talk about them say I don't think that's quite working very well we need to fix this da da da da so challenge so challenge and being able to challenge then that creates more loyal dissent yeah hey listen I think it's a great mission but you know what I think there's a weakness we need to look at this Oh, right.

38:41Okay, good. Good input. Now, what happens is that people then have a meaningful role in something meaningful. Wayne Smith from the All Blacks said, people rise to a challenge if it's their challenge. Someone in the military said, no one ever followed a PowerPoint into battle. No one does what they're told. They do what they tell themselves. And so you come back to that idea of the words create worlds. And another quote from Bill Walsh, the coach of the San Francisco 49ers. and his line was that leaders are in charge of shaping, words to the effect of shaping the self-talk of the team. Yes, yeah.

39:22Right? So what are your people saying? Yeah, that's powerful. What are your people saying about a task, about you? About you, about the boss. About the boss, about the culture, about what's the right way to roll here, what are the norms? What are they saying when you've left the room? Yeah, when you've left the room. Or what do they say when they're out in the field and there's a problem? Are they going, well, it's not my problem? Are they going, hey, it's up to me, I can fix this? What is the imprint? What is the language, the ethos, the story that they're telling? And so I think it's either a big muddle or it's a whole lot of interconnected strands around how do you create the conditions in which people operate to their best.

40:12Yes. And when you get that right, that's where culture acts as a force multiplier because you talk about the consistency. It happens in 1%, 100 times 1%, and you get that cumulative. You get the hockey stick. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because everyone's on the same page. Everyone's holding themselves and each other accountable for the same standards. There's a clarity of what it is. There's a clear goal, clear role, and it speaks to our soul. And you've got a really, really, really strong force of human nature, if you like, on your side. And one of the things I'll say to a sports team is, it's not New Zealand against Ireland.

40:58It's 15 blokes against 15 blokes on the day. you know it's what you tell yourself and i mean clearly preparation leading up to it but there's no guarantees of how a game will end we create that game in the action of playing it you know often as fans we can go ah you know west ham they're not as strong as arsenal this year so of course arsenal gonna win but that's not really what happens what happens is 11 guys plus an extended squad turn up and they face 11 guys on the day. And what they say to themselves about what the task is, how they connect as a group, whether they are above the line or below the line, all of those things will count and it's just one group against another group, winner takes all, rather than this overarching narrative of our fate is already written because we're West Ham and we're having a shocking season and Arsenal seem to be doing well.

42:03Well, we can always change that story every moment. Here's a question for you. Just thinking about it now, and you think about New Zealand and you think about England and they're all English and they're all Kiwis. If you are a West Ham and you're six foreign lads in that squad, how can you give off the same vibe which we're talking about now? Dangerous, dangerous question in these times. I think in the same way as it's not West Ham, but it's 15 or 11 guys or 23 guys in a squad. But if those lads, those 23, don't know what below the line means and what above the line means and culture and all the things we're talking about, they just won't know.

42:43Well, they don't know often. Yeah. I mean, sometimes they get it. You know, there are teams, you can tell, they just get it. Yeah. and or leaders who have been very deliberate about creating that. You know, it's Ted Lasso. I mean, it is. There's a coach I've worked with who says, the problem with Ted Lasso, he's given all our secrets away. And because actually at the heart of good coaching is care. Yes. People will do anything for you as long as, I mean, it's not my quote, but as long as they know you care. Do you know a very good coach for that manager over the years has been Harry Redknapp? Yeah.

43:23Like one of the best of caring, putting an arm around the shoulder. Yeah, and listen, I met Harry only once backstage. We both gave a speech at an educational conference, and we met just for a moment, but I felt him, as it were. I felt that moment. You know, a good guy. Yeah. Do you know why? Because he's about connecting. Connecting, and he's got time for people. and that's what it takes. He's got people intelligence, which I use. Not emotional intelligence, people intelligence. Exactly. I was the co-host of the Harry Redknapp show with him. Oh, okay. And we ended up doing a load of episodes, one with Piers Morgan and Sir Roger.

44:00And we were kicking each other around the table like little kids thinking, we're interviewing like... Yeah, yeah, yeah. But Harry's an A-list. Yeah, yeah. But he's still got that beautifulness that he doesn't think he is. Yeah. You know, that kindness, that thoughtfulness. And so, you know, kindness again. Yeah, yeah. And a quote I heard the other day, We've got a lot of quotes today, but the quote I heard the other day was, there's that thing, people, Maya Angelou quote, which is, you know, people don't remember what you say, but they remember how you made them feel. But there's an extension of that.

44:36It's people don't make you, it's not the way they make you feel, it's whether you feel they had time for you. Yes, lovely. And so exactly, so for Harry Redknapp, he seemed to have time for me. Backstage, he was coming off. I was about to go on. He was kind enough to mention my book. He knew who I was. I felt seen, heard, and valued. And respected, yeah. Right? And that's what everyone wants. And that's what everyone wants. And a lot of the time, you know, being a founder is finding time for people and connecting and connecting and connecting. I think if there was another kind of suite of what's important in a team, I think clarity has to be first.

45:27You have to know why you're there and what you're trying to do, what your goal and what your role is. But the second is connection, and that's about care. It's about return on relationships. It's about people being seen, people being part of something, having a meaningful role in something meaningful. And so a lot of my work with teams is about connection. So what did you see in the New Zealand squad when you were there? You obviously had Dan Carter, you had Richie McCaw. You had an unbelievable plethora of players there and coaches. What did you notice with the culture when you were there for those five weeks?

46:04Well, I think it was highly connected. It was. You know, I think you had a coaching group of three coaches who could have been head coach. and they had found a way to be together, of which egos weren't part of it. That's amazing. Just hold that thought there. So you had Graham Henry. Yep. You had... Wayne Smith. Wayne Smith. And then Steve Hansen. Steve Hansen there. So Steve Hansen then went to Wales. Well, no, he had been in Wales already. Went to Wales and came back, okay. Yeah, yeah. So you'd had two who had been in Wales. My God. That's a powerful three, isn't it? Yeah, so that's an incredibly powerful three.

46:43That's the Brains Trust. Do you not think that is very, very clever from the New Zealand rugby board to go, right, let's get three unbelievable ones? Or very clever from those guys because they put the package together, I think. Did they? And it changed the way those sort of coaching panels worked and they brought real expertise and a continuity to it. So connection. Yeah. um they they also that group was the i was there in 2010 uh by 2015 they'd won two world cups and uh i think five or six of them six of them i think retired at 2015 all on 100 caps each so they were deeply cohesive as a team yeah and that is the by-product of connection.

47:38So when you went there 2010, when did the book come out, Legacy? It came out 2011. It came out in 2011. Sorry, 2013. And they won the World Cup, their own World Cup in 2011. In 2011. Yeah, and that's when Lewis Moody, captain of England, went over to New Zealand. Then you boys won that in New Zealand at home and then you came to England and won the World Cup in England in 2015. Correct. Do you reckon your book had any effect on any of those players?

48:09I think they were swimming in that ocean already, so I don't think that it would have told them much that they didn't already know. Reinforced? Yeah, maybe reinforced, those of them who read it. I have heard that it is reinforcing and creating a continuum of that belief system now. It's almost like it has time to come back.

48:40I think the glue and the oil within that group between around that time was actually a guy called Gilbert Inoka, and I hope he doesn't mind me talking about him here, who has just rejoined the team as their mental skills coach and a beautiful human would be a way to describe him. And he really, he describes himself as an emotional detective. He was an orphan. His book is very, very good. I take it he's a Kiwi, is he? He is a Kiwi. A Rarotongan father, I think. Okay. Kiwi mother. Grew up in New Zealand. Was orphaned. and so really was on his own. And because he was on his own, I think ultimately became the ultimate team man, really read a room and was this emotional detective and really pioneered a lot around mental skills, certainly in rugby and really in world sport.

49:43Emotional detective, what a lovely line. It's a good line, isn't it? He's filled with good lines. What a line. yeah even mental skills coach what a what a title yeah yeah emotional detective like already i want to meet the guy yeah yeah he's he's a fantastic guy how old is he roughly he's in his mid-60s okay i'd love to get him on is he in new zealand now is he he's in new zealand you team me up with him yeah i'll see what he says yeah i'd love to yeah he gets a lot of invites so sure um the

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52:39So he, in the early days, he was described as a masseuse, you know, kind of muscle therapy guy, because the taboo of anything to do with mental stuff in those days, and it wasn't that long ago, meant that AU cop criticism in the press, but also some of the players. So a mental skills coach is a whole different thing than a psychologist. And it is a different practice. A psychologist tends to pathologize, tends to be about what the problem is, whereas a mental skills coach, I think, will tend to come and describe or be searching for what the solution is. Agree. But I think people who mention the word mental health, I've been saying it for years, change it to mind health.

53:32Yeah. Like mental health, you link that being a kid going, he's mental or he's a different, you know, the connotations with it. But just that one little change. Well, you know, we talk about, you know, words create words. That's right. You know, shifting things. There was a fantastic, just to build on that, another thing that's interesting, fantastic study done about what became known, I think, as job crafting, which was two sets of cleaners, janitors, quite a large study in American hospitals. One were called cleaners and the other group were called carers. Again, I'm roughing it out. Those who were cleaners, they just cleaned.

54:12They just came and went, emptied the bins and left. Those who were called carers, they took care. They were in search of a meaningful role in something meaningful. And they took care. And so you're exactly right. Sometimes rephrasing things, mental skills, even the phrase I use, which is mindset is a skill set. A lot of people, I think, feel that mindset is something you're kind of born with. And to a degree, you have a setting. Well, it's anything. It's personal development. Yeah. How do you want to develop it? Well, even, okay, so personal development becomes an interesting thing because it's like that falls into the self-help industry.

54:59And the self-help industry, it's the uncool part of the bookshop. Yeah. And it's where the narcissists hang out. but the highest quality people are working on personal growth all the time that's the job that's the job of being human maybe try to be a better dad try to be a better you know husband try to be a better friend yeah boss whatever it may be or just be a better human being for your own sake you know and so you know one of my one of my jokes really was that legacy was sort of a self-help book for blokes they could read on the tube. It's a book about rugby. But really it's a book about how do we get better every day, how do we lead, what it is to be a leader, what will our legacy be, what difference will we make in this world.

55:52So they're big questions of becoming. And I think the power of that when you apply it to a team is that it's like a primal urge to self-actualize, to become what we're capable of becoming. And if as a leader you can create the conditions where people are capable of becoming what they're capable of becoming, then what you've got is you've got a group of people who are growing. And when your team grows from the inside, it kind of grows on the outside. you know you've harnessed something you've harnessed human energy in a way that's very powerful how did your life change when the book launched in 2013 and did you realize it was going to make such an impact in the business world uh no i didn't realize the impact it would make i i think you'd i think my mantra was always it's a success just to finish the book Everything else is a bonus.

56:58Everything else is just cream on top. And so I got the book finished in a back room of a pub in Collins, say, in Scotland.

57:10And I started to get some good feedback from people. And then I kind of zoomed to number one for a moment. And then it stayed there. well it stayed high in the rankings and it's still there it just keeps kept on going so the what it gave me was a lot of access and instead of me knocking on the door I was being invited in and that's what a book will do for you and books are the ultimate viral campaign author authority exactly it's the easiest yeah And so suddenly I was being invited to places as a guest. And so that changed the nature of the relationship, the nature of the connection, and therefore the nature of the conversations I could have and the impact that I could make.

58:09Brilliant. So it's been massive. And from elite sport to elite military to some unbelievable business clients to some government education, the miracle for me with Legacy is that I sort of thought it was sort of a business book and maybe it would be picked up and read by some business people who happen to be interested in rugby but it turned out to be hugely influential within sport because it crystallised that idea of what a high performance culture really looks like and it's the sort of digestible book that teams can read and discuss together And you gave people the answers. Well, I gave people the questions, I would say.

58:55The questions, yes, but also people were reading it and were like, right, okay, I've read it and now I understand it. I get it, yeah. I get it, yeah. Okay. When you were writing a book, how many words was it in the end? 45 ,000. 45 ,000. When you were writing that book, when you get into the end, are you putting that in front of a publisher? Are you self-publishing it? No, it's in front of it. It's done through Hachette, Constable, so through a publisher. and I have a very patient publisher who is now a friend of mine. How does it work? How do they know? Did they pay you in advance? Yeah. How much did they pay you for in advance?

59:33I can't remember. I think it was 15 ,000 pounds. 15 grand back then. But when they go, we're going to pay you in advance, then how does it work? Do they tweak anything there? Do they need control? Yeah, to a degree. There's a copy edit is done and that was, you know, I'm a bit of a, I do draft after draft after draft. Perfectionist. I write long, it's a craft. Yeah. Like building a cabinet, it's not done until it's done. You know, if the drawers aren't squeaking, aren't coming out, then it's not done. So I don't think I'm a perfectionist because I think there's paralysis in that, but I think I'm a craftsman and I want the craft to be right.

1:00:18So I take it to quite a reasonably finished state. The process was I wrote a proposal of an agent who… Puts you in front of the right people. And you want a bit of an advance, but really you need the commitment. The advance is you're paying it one way or the other. It's just, you know, you want a successful book. it goes in, they give it a copy, it comes back to me, I have another go at it. A few facts get scrambled in the middle of it, so then after the first printing, you've got to fix the facts. I'm at that stage at the moment. Are you? Yeah. I've written a book called Nobody Tells You Like This.

1:01:05Right. And it's like the Daily Stoic. Yeah. So it's January 1st to 31st of December. Right. With, I won't give away too much, but yeah, we're at that point right now and I've really enjoyed the craftsmanship of this and the last 10 % is 90 % of the work tidying things up or making sure it's right you know words create words sometimes one sentence at the end of a paragraph could change everything flip it on it's head and so I love the craft I think you've got to do the, it's not boring, but the boring stuff, the structure, the discipline, the self-discipline, to get it to the right point. And, you know, the other thing for me with books is you only write a book once.

1:02:00Make sure you nail it. You want to nail it if you can. Or at least know that, you know, to take a rugby cliche, you left it all out on the field. Yeah. You know, because you have to live with it forever. And so I have a book that's getting near completion. But I've changed tack on it three times. Yeah, okay. But where I'm at now, it's the right one. I think it was Michelangelo was asked how he carves these exquisite angels out of marble. He says, I just keep tapping away, and there it is. But do you not find, what I'm finding, is breakthroughs pop up all the time. Because this is like 365 pages we're doing.

1:02:49So it's one page for each day. It's like before my mum passed, she would always say to me, pick a page out of this book and you read a page. And I've gone down that route where it's 365 truths about life, leadership, sports, building brands, businesses, with a memoir mixed in with all the stories over the last 30 years of business. So it's something really, really unique. Great. And we're quite excited. I bet. so this next step now is the publisher bit right yeah but going back to your craftsmanship we keep i keep going back again i've had a breakthrough tweak that tweak oh my god fantastic and you go again and you get a lovely feeling yeah yeah yeah yeah it's very new to me i never thought i'd be writing a book to me there you go well but but you know and it's also finishing it as the victory yes i'm working with a great lady tracy duke great yeah great very good i want to go back to the New Zealand Dan Carter.

1:03:41What's Dan Carter like? What's Richie McCaw like? What are they like as people? Well, I like both of them. They're humble Kiwis. They're very dedicated to what they do. They're quiet guys. There's a phrase in sport, in the All Blacks, it's lead by deed. What's that, lead by deed? Lead by deed. Let your actions do the talking. So I'd say that probably categorises them pretty well. Your world, now you're an author for the last 13 years, how many doors have opened for you? What sort of doors open for you? Well, I'm an author and a coach, so I work with different groups. So I've worked with Leicester City in the Premier League and in the FA Cup.

1:04:33when they won the Premier League well I gave a talk that season but it was after so Vichai the chairman died in a helicopter crash leaving his stadium yeah in front of the players my god I remember that what year was that do you remember what year that was 18 19 I think they won in 15 16 17 18 probably. That's an interesting story. They're now in Division 1. Yeah. Well the money ran out and so Brendan Rogers took over and that pre-season before after Vejai died we had to kind of reboot who we are. You know what's going on and what do we stand for and so So that was a wonderful conversation to be part of.

1:05:34And then that team built, and you talked about that, 1 ,000 days. It wasn't really quite 1 ,000 days, but almost. Kind of capped it off with the FA Cup. And I had the privilege of doing the team talk. It was just after COVID, so the team talk was back at the hotel. Yeah, brilliant. Sort of setting them up. But, you know, it was about making Vichai proud. Yeah. You know, and showing courage and unity. Did they not embroider his face into the shirts? They did. That was the year. Okay. They did. Which I didn't know. But two years before that, it had been about, you know, that Vichai is watching. Okay.

1:06:24And so the players did that. and there was a whole lot of stuff they did around connection and stuff and they really came together as a team. And, of course, it was the last dance because the financials were falling away. It was all, you know, under new ownership.

1:06:41COVID, the owners were a duty-free company. So COVID was a major hit. Anyway, all sorts of – but, you know, sometimes teams, they just have their moment. and to your question about teams with a mixed group of people, how do you get that singular identity? I think often it's that singular identity of just it's us guys, girls and guys, we're in the room. A great question to ask is, listen, when we bump into each other in an airport in 30 years' time, what do we want to say about what we did together? And this is as applicable for business teams. Sometimes business teams go, yeah, but it's all right if you're a premiership football team or you're an international rugby team or a Formula One team.

1:07:30It's all really significant and important, and it's really easy to get up for the game. On one level, well, not exactly, because everything can become just a job. However glamorous it may seem from the outside, turning up and playing footy every day, all day, can become different. you know carrying injuries worried about stressed about selection you know same old faces that are you know a lot of human beings are the same right so you've still got to find ways to to manage that um and also another quote that i've always loved ram das who just says you know we're just walking each other home we're all destined for the same box you know we're all It's just from the same box.

1:08:19Yeah, that's true. And life is pretty short. Yeah. And we're actually not a member of that many teams in our life. Not that many. Three, four, five, maybe. Six or seven. Two or three. Our family. A bunch of mates. You know, we're not actually a member of that many teams, even if we move around a lot. so this is your life this is it you know these people are your life you're walking each other home so what are you going to do with that not like yeah but I'll just go through this one it'll be a stepping stone to something better right maybe there isn't a stepping stone to somewhere better maybe there's now and there's never and so if you can start to engage with

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1:11:35The hair and now. Even this, even we're sitting across from each other. We haven't met before. We may not meet again, right? But we're doing something together. We want it to be as good as it can be. You know, in 30 years' time, we might bump into each other. we're actually in a very near an airport here. But, you know, what would we say to each other? We really nailed that one. Yeah, nailed that. Love that chat. I love that chat. Yeah, I agree. You know, that was fantastic. You know, da-da-da. You know, if we can bring that spirit into every conversation, right, and just bring the love, if you like, to everything that we do.

1:12:15and you know one of my kind of you know phrases to self is just is just kind of like love the moment love every moment you know if I can bring love to every moment and I can enjoy every moment then the outcome is going to be pretty good now I don't know what the outcome will be and I can't control the outcome but I can control the energy that I put into what I do do and I'm not saying I get it right. I've road raged with the best of them. I've been short and sharp on the phone to delivery people with the best of them. We're not always at our best, but we can at least try to be. And it's also being aware of how you are acting, being aware of how you feel.

1:13:04It's being aware of your emotions in that moment. The great undeveloped skill in life is metacognition. is to see yourself as your being. Disassociate yourself, looking down on you. Yeah, be able to zoom out. Agree, agree. And not lose yourself in zooming out, but being able to go, oh, and pattern recognition. Oh, there I go again, another trigger. I'm on the edge of a group. You know, actually it's probably happened to me at school 30 years before. On the edge of a group, it's a networking thing. You know, I'm here again and I'm going, you know, do I take counsel of my fears and go and get another drink and sit in the corner or not or do I just boldly go up to somebody and introduce myself well I've learned now I can boldly go up and introduce myself but I needed to recognize that I had a tendency to to not want to do that and to act in a different way in order to reprogram myself a little bit so metacognition the ability to zoom out, take a look at your, dispassionately look at your behaviours and adjust them a little bit and try something different and be aware of that.

1:14:17I mean, that's what learning is, I think, and where growth happens because it's never comfortable to do that. Do you know an interesting one here, listen to everything here intently, Bournemouth Football Club, AFC Bournemouth, Their culture is off the charts. That's a club that nearly kicked out the league. That's a club that's come through the leagues. That's a club that got into the Premier League with just 11 ,000 fans. That's a club that stayed in the Premier League for roughly, in total, 25, we've had one or two years out to where we are today. 11 years, 10 years, 9 years in the Premier League for a small little club.

1:14:56That's a club with many players from around the world coming. But that's a club that's got an ethos and a culture that when you arrive there, from the top to the bottom, everyone's on the same journey. That's the club that tells the new players come in from Senegal or from Italy or France, this is the history of the club. Learn the history of the club. There's a video to watch. This is where the chairman, Jeff Mostyn, put all his money in and took the club from going kaput to then turning it around and then getting a new Russian owner over the years and all the gambles and risks to where it is today.

1:15:26There's a club with an old stadium that holds 11 ,000, but it's getting done up now. you know that is the that's for me that's like the epitome of culture yeah and looking after each other and love yeah in a beautiful town in a meaningful role in something meaningful yeah you know yeah and and i i don't know much about the boom i i know that there's a great culture i don't know much about it but what i do know about cultures is that when you get it right it's a force multiplier to what you got. Agree. You know, and whether it's Lester, you know, who punched well above their weight, but that was about Team Shimp, you know, the best pub band, a pub team in the world was their sort of joke to themselves.

1:16:11Whether it's, you know, there's a hockey team, UMass, the Minutemen who focused on character and culture and they went from worst, literally worst, to first. in college hockey. Jumbo Visma, the cycling team, had been Rabobank and had really gutted around the Lance Armstrong and all of that stuff. They kept the same people but created a new culture. They couldn't really afford to lose people. They changed their culture and with the same people, they ended up winning the Tour de France. Culture is a competitive advantage. and it's simple and very difficult to get right. It's like the principles are simple.

1:17:03But putting them into place can be really difficult. And I think the putting into place just is a creative conversation with your people, co-creation. People rise to a challenge if it's their challenge. Hand up, not out. You know, all of those kind of phrases around. If you can get, so there's a methodology called appreciative inquiry change methodology that is really about the principles of kind of constructing the future together. Now, if you can create a team that constructs its own future together. You're aware. You're aware. Yeah, 100%. The buy and the engagement, the direction. Business and sport.

1:17:49Business and sport and military and family. If you're singing from the same hymn sheet, for want of a better phrase. Because that's how human beings have always operated at their best. I always employ ex-sports people. People who come from a team culture. Because that's where I've come from. And I find for me personally, it works for me personally. Growing businesses with people around you on the same journey, the same mindset, same thought process, It's the same, I'll do it, let's crack on with it. Come on, we'll do it together. You know, that is... And just pitch in and... Yeah, just chip in, let's go.

1:18:26And, you know, rugby's a wonderful analogy for that in that there's a position for everybody, for every body time, just about. And it's a collective, you know, the real man of the match is never the one that's given by the pundits. The man of the match who's given by the pundits scored the runaway tries. The real man of the match, the public doesn't notice. They're the one who are, you know, on repeated effort. They make the tackle. They're on to the next one. They're on to the next one. They're doing dirty deeds in the dark. You know, they're the front line of the scrum holding it against the odds.

1:19:10Winning that ball back. Winning that ball back. But the team know. Yeah. the team know and you're doing it for your mates and there's nothing more powerful than doing it for your mates doing it for love doing it for your family doing it for the right reasons and so purpose you know like personal purpose a meaningful role into some sort of public purpose like this is a job worth doing is an incredibly powerful combination you know and if you're employing people from sport particularly team sport they probably been attracted to that and certainly conditioned in those kind of environments that selfless service is is in fact not selfless yeah it's actually you get what every in a selfless environment everyone wins it also helps we own bournemouth sevens festival which is a sport and music festival yeah of course for business as well you know yeah of course and and um you know you want to take the values of the thing you work with you know music's interesting again you know the greatest band the greatest team of all time the beatles fantastic team you know you had a songwriter partnership that was great you had other you had another songwriter was chipping in you had a you had a drummer who who had his own sort of style but was a sort of peacemaker you know you had you had everybody compensated for everybody else and everyone says well they broke up earlier they were together for how many albums and seven or nine years of fame.

1:20:48They were a huge act, obviously a huge act, but they lasted for a long time. They're a fantastic team. Do you think New Zealand rugby has the best culture in the world today?

1:21:06I think culture and best is difficult in a way because I think… strongest culture? It certainly has a very, very strong culture. I think the All Blacks themselves have a very, very strong culture, and I think New Zealand rugby has a very strong culture. I think South Africa at the moment have a very strong culture at the top, but they have an extremely strong grassroots rugby culture, maybe stronger than New Zealand, I would say. Maybe the sort of culture New Zealand used to have has maybe less. When you look in, living in England, where are you, Winchester? Yeah, close. When you look in, do you think England rugby has got the culture right?

1:21:50Dangerous. Listen, I'm working for the Pumas, for the Argentinian team at the moment, so I'm probably better not to kind of slag off the opposition too much at the moment. But I think there are some structural issues that England rugby face between club and country. it seems to be the perennial problem. I think there are issues about whether the club culture or the club competition translates really well into the international side of things. But you might run a measure over it and say, given that England has the most professional players, and along with France, probably the most money. Why have they only been world champs once?

1:22:47You've got to ask that. But we've been in two finals as well. Yeah. So we've been in three finals. Is it three finals we've been in? And one-on-one? Yeah. I mean, you know, again, I don't want to be drawn too deeply into it. But, you know, is it enough for an English player to say, I play for England? Is that enough? I would hope so. Yeah. Well, isn't it, you know, if you take the All Blacks view, you go, there's no point in just being an All Black. You want to be a great All Black. Right, okay. So there's no point in being just an England player. You want to be a great All Black. You know, and I vaguely wonder if there's a feeling you've won the lottery already just because you got selected, not what you did in the jersey.

1:23:34Yeah. Might be a question I might ask. you know but i again i don't want to be yeah no i get it yeah james i've really really enjoyed this conversation yeah it's been a it's been a cracker is it finished already yeah but it was an hour and 15 minutes in there you go what a fantastic conversation i've enjoyed it very much yeah same anyone listening out there if you've got any questions just put them down on the comments i'm really intrigued to see what people's thoughts are on this and where can people find you Well, just a general Google search, or I guess it's AI now, will turn up all sorts of stuff.

1:24:12Are you on socials? Not so much. I mean, I'm on LinkedIn. I'm findable on LinkedIn. But I've tried to let my book do the speaking out there. And work-wise, I tend to focus on the teams. Now I do quite a few keynotes, some sort of workshop, like extended workshop sessions and I've got a book to finish. What's that called? It's called Ethos. Ethos, okay, brilliant. And it's how great leaders grow great teams. Wonderful. So that growth and idea is a big part of it. When's that coming out? The idea is it comes out in about a year's time and time for the World Cup. Okay, perfect. Rugby World Cup in about a year.

1:25:02Perfect. James you're an absolute gentleman mate it's been a real pleasure I've really enjoyed it good man thanks cheers buddy cheers hi guys I really hope you enjoyed that as much as I did can you do us a favour and leave us a review as it massively helps us grow the show cheers guys