#307. Ex Met Police Firearms Officer - Kev Healy

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1:25for the semester wayfair makes it easy to get everything you need in one place furniture bedding storage decor study essentials all at prices you'll love with fast shipping before move-in day get everything you need for back to school season shop wayfair.com today wayfair every style every home every day you're on duty you're pointing guns at bad people trying to stop them doing really bad stuff that spontaneous world with me that's what i actually crave that ability just turn up and you do not know what you're going to face the radio comes to life and you hear that and that's you those few minutes in the car you're planning you turn up and might be multiple stabbings it might be shots fired at car and you've got to be able to go right this is the plan on me and so that door goes in if there's someone on the other side of that door and sometimes there was you're the first person they see this team are behind you and your one job is to protect them all I love that responsibility have you ever been shot at?

2:29I've had guns pulled on me yes were you around on the London Bridge? yeah I was at London Bridge you turn up at work and put the police uniform on you've accepted that anything can come your way that instant half a second whether you're going to pull that trigger or not what is that consequences for you if you do pull the trigger? Lawn Castle being sacked What are your thoughts on that? Again, the public, you don't get it. They're putting their neck on the line. People blame the police, but ultimately, the police are affected by governments. But, you know, government has done a great job in just breaking the police, haven't they?

2:56The only people who have guns are bad people, and us. And this is what people don't get. I've acted to save my life, completely justified in law. Have you ever shot anyone? I have. Tell me about that.

3:12Welcome to the Eventful Lives podcast. I'm your host, Dodge, and I'm the founder of Bournemouth Sevens, the world's largest sport and music festival. On this podcast, I speak to proper characters who have all lived eventful lives. Do us a favour and hit that follow button and be sure to check us out on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook and TikTok at Dodge Woodall, where we've now had over 100 million views. Kev, welcome to the show, mate. Hello, thank you for having me. Yeah, really looking forward to this one. We've been chatting for a while now. Let's roll all the way back. What's it like roaming the streets of London with a machine gun?

3:45right well how can i put it so 19 was for me starting in 2003 we went out in the cars and for me it was the best career move i ever made i said 18 years i couldn't leave i just absolutely loved getting up in the morning and it is unique there's no other job like it you come to work you put your uniform on and then you load your guns you load your glock your mp5 as it was in 2003 and you get on a car with two of your mates and you drive around for eight hours 10 hours 12 hours and you're just laughing all day it's just three blokes in a car all girls you know the department's involved you used to just be mostly men but a lot of girls now and you just drive around london and all you're waiting for the the magic words of uh any trojan unit the radio comes to life and you hear that any trojan unit and that's you that's your all your training everything you're there for and it can be anywhere in london so when i joined in 2003 there was only five cars you imagine that eight nine thousand people five cars the whole of the city so you went out and you never came back to the base you were going from call to call to call so you might end up in harrow tottenham then down to lewisham south of the river which is you know two bases one north one south and you always call in on each other because only three cars and firearms ops are um pretty labor intensive you know so if it's a vehicle option in those days you needed two cars if it was a convoy of bad you know suspects and vehicles might need three or four cars well actually that's all that's a bag empty then you know for the whole of london might be one car left and you're going everywhere so realistically in 2003 when i joined you were probably pointing guns every day every day you're on duty you're pointing guns at bad people trying to stop them doing really bad stuff and it was for me the best job in the world yeah i bet how How long do you end up doing that for?

5:3018 years. Full on, 18. Full on. I only came off the cars once when I dislocated my kneecap and they put me in office and I was such a disaster. Getting back in the streets. I was amazed I didn't get sacked. I was so incompetent. But they got me back in the streets as quick as possible. But the whole of it was on the cars, never took promotion, never wanted a step away from it. I just became addicted to it. And the culture, you know, you're working with people who are so professional. just want to come they want to be there they want to be they're not griping they're not hating the job they train they're physically fit they're highly motivated and that just rubs that enthusiasm just rubs off on you i'd get up in the morning especially near the end when i was like my body was breaking down a bit i'd be up at four getting to work at the gym five solid hours training to try and keep up with these young lads who are 27 28 and some there's probably units in trojan to some really fit boys and girls and obviously i was like almost 57 at the end and i was killing myself in the gym for minimum gains so i didn't shame myself we went on calls but um it was just amazing and and the thing about policing all policing is you haven't got a clue what's happening that day but that's the exciting bit right that's what makes it so special yeah and i think if you're i wasn't ever destined to work in an office and that's not digging out people who work in offices yeah we're all different horses for courses but i mean when i was a young lad from about 14 i took up karate for a whole host of reasons and i just be just locked into it got on the england karate team then the national squad fought in the european championships got me fifth down it was just like and i lived for karate just lived for the discipline of it i loved i loved fighting basically i just loved it competing met amazing people and then that evolved one day i was teaching somebody and said have you ever thought i joined the police i was like why would i join the police i was up 25 and he said kev you are just cut out for the lifestyle you know this is you and i stuck an application in i don't even know why i did it it's very in my very in my family background it was a little bit checkered i thought they'll never have me with some of the people in my family but sure enough i got a board i got for all the assessments and uh i got a board at um it used to be paddling from police station then and uh and i mean the first question is uh i think it was the superintendent said um about your dad all right i was like wow because nowadays we get an interview it's all set isn't it and there are some questions and then they asked me about another family member and we had a really honest chat and i thought i love this it's just honest you know they want to know what will i do what do i think and i passed and then next one i'm walking through the gates of hendon didn't know what i'd let myself in for i'd never watched an episode of the bill in fact the only tv cop show i ever watched was the sweeney which i thought wow that's coppery right but um i heard i rolled into hendon and from day one the discipline of the martial arts you know because i joined in the 70s and crying in the 70s it was a pretty brutal affair very few kids did it it's mostly adults it was very full-on there was no protective equipment there's no weight categories it was just like turn up get battered go home repeat and joining the police was like that same discipline that don't whinge turn up when you put your gi on you're in play there's no oh can i not fight tonight or can i not do this if you put your gi on game on game on yeah and that's for me the uniform is the same you turn up at work and put the police uniform on you've you've accepted that anything can come your way and i'm lucky because i quite a interesting childhood quite a tough childhood that and then the dojo made me tougher yeah that that that mental toughness was and also sense of humor my mom's irish got the like oh she's recently died but she had the best sense of humor in the world so that ability to laugh at almost anything that is not that that's a gift by the way it is isn't it and so she had she had grit but she had a sense of humor so no matter what happened my mom was raising five kids on her own catholic on a on a council house council estate where everyone's protestant and hates us right so um that ability to laugh and take it on the chin and keep going forward just was just just work for me and the police just turn up you're gonna have bad days i went home some nights especially when you join you screw up you really screw up and people are brutal there's a brutal honesty about policing or there was where it's not bullying where someone sits you down and says you've really let yourself down there mate or you screwed up there or you weren't thinking and you go home and sit on the bed head in your hands thinking i've got to do all again tomorrow but if you're learning it's amazing how quickly people forgive you like say that lad really wants to be good he really wants to get involved and i think people so honestly there's an honesty in the police i loved and that black sense of humor no matter what you went to however bad it was we'd sit in the canteen write our notes excuse me and we'd be like someone no too soon yeah for that ability to laugh at what we've just you know not taking a mic out of it just say because we know the next one's coming there's no in the police there's no decompression time it's not like something bad happens and we all sit around for a week and we'll decompress and especially on firearms you go to one incident someone's been shot stabbed you know hems might be there and they've cracked their chest and they're massaging the heart and you're there helping and then the next minute you're driving you're having a coffee you're going to mcdonald's and you're having your little ice cream.

10:58And then another call comes out. And there's no time to sort of work it out in your head what you've just dealt with. And then the shift's over. And you're going home on the train with loads of people just all chatting away. And you're sat there like, you have no idea. I'll never forget one. I went to a call where the guy had been shot and stabbed. It was just in a terrible state. Where were you? Where was it? This was in all places. Bromley, just outside Bromley, which isn't a place where we go to very often. and he was shot on his torso with this young lad and we were there working on him and then Hems turned up and they got this basically he was going so they got this device that cracks open the chest they got the heart out they're massaging the heart and then suddenly from that you're sort of thinking save the life save the life and the medical training in SO19 the medics are just off the radar What does SO19 stand for?

11:48Well when I joined it was called SO19 it was specialist ops Specialist, okay and then specialist ops became CO19 Central Operations and then it became MO19 and they're probably rebranding it now but SO Specialist Ops You were the creme de la creme I remember back yeah I mean they rolled out and I think it was 1991 I think the commissioner and a few other people finally realised you've got to have guns on the street you're not going to arm your normal old bill you're not it's just too big a problem to solve and society wouldn't accept it and I think most cops don't want it either so 19 was formed the ARVs was formed rather and the armed response vehicles had a remit uh spontaneous it's happening now yeah right so bloke in the street with a gun bloke in the street with a knife someone says they're going to go and kill their missus all that you know something crazy is about to happen spontaneous no time to wait and you've got to get guns to that call you've got to get between them and the person they're going to hurt and that's the great thing about 19 you have to get in the middle yeah because if you don't and we've only got one remit save life you know so person who's in possession of a firearm immediate access to a firearm or otherwise so dangerous and that otherwise so dangerous is to cover all that's for the for the person who has a mental breakdown and starts wanting to kill their kids schizophrenic or whatever or someone's using their vehicle maybe to harm someone or you know it can cover anything even someone walking around saying they've got a suicide vest on you know it's otherwise so dangerous and so that remit covered everything and there's a little cap on the end of that as the humane destruction of animals in pain which i thought well we'll never do that but then the amount of people who buy fighting dogs these big you know suddenly and then they buy them they live in a flat yeah and they've got you know fido in the kitchen eat in the kitchen and and maybe biting the kids and occasionally you'd have to we'd turn up and um we'd have to dispatch the this dog you know which was a it's a brutal thing it's meant humane destruction yeah but there's nothing pretty about shooting a an animal with solid slug from a shotgun and it has to be done it's the only safe way often dog handlers have gone and said we can't deal with that yeah it's far too dangerous so then it falls to 19 and there's no there's not a soul at 19 who wants to harm an animal yeah sure you know who i mean i've got dogs love dogs had them all my life but you have to do your duty that animal's a threat so 19 that spontaneous world and for me that's what i actually crave that ability just turn up and you do not know what you're going to face and and it can be bonk like i'll never forget right near the end of my career we got a call to brixton a couple of calls which usually gives it a bit of validity yeah bloke going into a park first thing in the morning got a shotgun think he's going to kill himself and you're like right you know let's get down there and try and stop him you know and we get there and and we sort of it's like five six o 'clock in the morning in brixton this park in brixton and we're sort of circling and we're doing a little bit of tactical movement through the bushes because he has got a shotgun supposedly and then and then as we get near this big sort of area so all branches and bush you can hear something inside and then you hear and it's a didgeridoo and it's this guy and he's just to get a bit of me time to get out of the house right he goes out saturday morning armed with his didgeridoo and he sits in the park in the bush and obviously over the radio, someone goes, have you guessed what it is, mate?

15:18And so, you know, imagine the look on his face when he sees a load of old Bill sort of snuggling through the bushes tactically to be faced with... Is there an occasion that really springs out in your mind where you went, that was really dangerous? Oh, there's multiple calls you go to that have the high risk. You have to intervene because if you don't, someone's going to die. I mean, probably one of the most, for me, it was early in my early days and we were night duty. I was with two top operators and that's what made it work. And we were driving around Lewisham. And it's not late. It's about maybe 10 o 'clock at night.

15:57And a call came out saying, we heard in the local link on the local radio about hostages, which is like straight up our street, hostages. That's firearms all day long. But it hadn't been declared a firearms incident. No one was putting it out on the radio. it was like they were keeping it in house so we drove to the address and the car pocket this block of flats you had TSG were like the you know the much better word like the right public order train so TSG were their local units what's TSG? Territorial Support Group and they're like the right police that deal with riots but also they do all sorts of operations so I'm not mugging you off lads very professional people and often a lot of TSG then make the jump to 19 it's a natural all sorts exactly because a lot of confrontational policing which is something we'll talk about later but confrontational policing is your bread and butter at 19 de-escalation de-escalation turning up things are very hostile bringing them back down so no one gets hurt but at this time we walk in and um there's a local inspector there duty officer the sergeants the tier the territorial support group governor inspector and they're all in hot conversation i'm like and his tiny little flaps baking around with people i said what's going on they said well the guy's um british military guy he's had a complete mental breakdown of crisis he's taken both the kids tiny little kids but i know so high and he's taken them into the bathroom locked the door and he's going to kill them at midnight and you can just hear him praying and he's got a massive knife in there and i'm just looking at thinking well we can't leave and this is definitely not TSG's remit because they're there for, they do entries for people in a house with a knife or whatever, but they don't do hostage.

17:36Hostage is SO19 and predominantly hostage is above even ARV. That is for the SFOs, which is the level above ARV. Where we patrol, the SFOs are trained in hostage rescue and a whole host of other, or CTSFOs as they're now called since the Olympics. But they have a skill set way, just way out there. So, but they weren't called. And I think they were actually that night, there was a team on, but they were busy on the job. So I remember going up to the governor and I'm PC and saying to this inspector, like we're here and we're taking over. And he's like, are you? I'm like, yeah, we are because it's a hostage situation.

18:11Yeah. Well, it could happen now. He could suddenly change his mind. Not wait till midnight. Yeah. So, and we've got firearms capability is what this is all about. You can hear the kids crying. It's just a door separating us. So you're the flat neck door. No, we're in the flat and we're outside the bathroom door. he's the other side of the door with the kids saying he's going to kill him oh god so we're literally about you know a couple of inches separate yeah and i remember i was with two grape guys and um we said right but we came up with a plan the clock was ticking so there was a borough pc trying to get a report going trying to talk to him but and he was doing a cracking job to slow him down slow him down get a report get something to maybe bring him back but suddenly but then his voice would go up he'd start praying he started doing things and you're thinking we've gotta go and we thought right so we got the there's a hooli bar which is a big metal thing with a spike on the end and it was an outward opening door which is unusual for a toilet door and i remember so we had a plan and one of the lads was going to stand there with the mp5 and two of us were going to go in and if he went to stab the kids or heart the shot was going to be taken right no you know we have you have to save life and that means you might have to take a preemptive shot you might have to jump in there and save life and those kids while we were there they they're coming out of there in one piece and that means me and my mate who are going in we're gonna put an x on the line here because he's a he's a unit he's got a he's got a big big knife and he's clearly clearly extremely screwed up it's really messed up uh and we don't want to hurt him but we got to stop him so at the appointed hour we all sort of look at each other right it's almost midnight the nods the door got breached um and me and my mate we just went straight in and we had a plan just go for his arms get them armed and it just turned into the kids were snatched out next to them we're fighting in the bus a taser's going off there wasn't a shot thank god no one got shot we're fighting we get the knife off him and we get him detained and the whole thing from breaching the door to rescuing these kids took seconds just seconds and everybody is breathing the biggest sigh of relief because no one wants to hurt this soldier Not a million years, right?

20:20He came out unharmed. The children were unharmed. I mean, psychologically, God knows what it is. But those children came out, they're unharmed. And there was just a massive, thank God. Yeah. Because imagine he'd kill those kids, you know, and we'd stood there debating. Well, what about this? And you're still thinking whether to go in there and do a job. Yeah. Shall we? Shall we? What made you wait until close to midnight? Were the conversations going well? Yeah, because the... Exactly. There's always that chance. That he might just go, do you know what? Yeah. Yeah. And they do. The amount of people who sort of really talk the talk.

20:54But when it comes to it, they've got a red dot on their chest or they get a gun pointed at them. They surrender pretty quick. Yeah. But this guy, he was really, really unstable. He was very, very upset and agitated. He wasn't. He talked a little bit, but ultimately he wasn't coming out. And 100 % of my mind, I knew in my mind, he's killing the kids. Yeah. He's going to kill them. And there's no way that's happening. Yeah. and I was with two amazing people and if they hear this they know who they are who are they well I'll say Gareth and another lovely lad I can't say his name he's one of the SFOs yeah okay and fair play to him fair play to all of you yeah and I remember coming out and everybody was just at the euphoria the euphoria it's just like we have done you know you go home that night and you're thinking I've done a good thing today and you don't always feel that when you go home to coffee you don't go home thinking yeah we are the real deal sometimes you go home you're banging red on the wall but that night I know if I go to my grave those two kids are alive because of that and that's the thing about Trojan you have or for me anyway when you say Trojan yeah is that when people call make the call Trojan yeah and that's when you respond yeah I should probably give you a little yeah the call sign for armed firearms units have a call sign SO19 are Trojan units Heathrow Heathrow armed offices who guarded the terminals were called Hunter units okay the the armed officers who looked after embassies used to be called ranger units so you had hunter for embassies so for the airport ranger for diplomatic for embassies and they had very strict sort of remit about standing around embassies and blah blah blah but trojan we had a scope to go anywhere to patrol and respond to anything and also remember you might just drive into something like that we weren't told to go to that call we just heard it on a local link we turned up and i remember when it was over chatting to the base and the base were like good work lads you know what's next there was no right no there's no we went back we wrote our notes and we were back on the road i mean we did get commendations for that much much later uh and but that that's one of those calls but you go to so many especially in those days when there were so few cars and everything you know you go to these things and it's there's no when they're holding your hand there's not a superintendent i was a pc so there's no one turning up going don't do that do this you are making your own decisions and that was one of the reasons i love trojan because trojan officers the best trojan officers doesn't matter what rank you are an inspector a pc skipper the best trojan officers can make a decision you turn up and might be multiple stabbings it might be shots fired at car cars crashed someone shot in the car suspects in a building you know it's a whole load of stuff going on and you've got to be able to go right this is the plan on me emergency at that address contain that do this and you are multitasking you are the king or queen of multitasking and and and i go back to my childhood the ability to make decisions good decisions under stress or through my police career at notting hill just turn up fixing things fixing things what's the safest way to do this that rolled into 19 and 19 is just i think they say it's a department of like 200 superintendents because everyone thinks that have been charged right but you the the people who turn up at firearms calls and the public don't appreciate this you don't just walk on you know jump on the back seat of an arv you have to have credentials those credentials are owned on borough or tsg or where or some of the guys come from the military they leave the military they join the police they do their time on borough and then they turn up on 19 and so you so that car will have a wealth of experience just of policing yeah let alone firearms and then the bolt on i mean ultimately your cops your guns so you're a copper i mean i'll never forget that i remember i was a probationer and we got a call a mate of mine had just joined so 19 i was so so impressed because the failure rate was off the radar past the course it was like i thought he walked on water my magic he'd passed the so 19 aiv course and he had to go to lehman street to get some kit and um i was standing by the car and because i was 27 28 then they i think they assumed it was me because i was old right and a couple of skippers come over and chanted me so you know and then they realized i was just a probationer and his skippers mood changed he goes and he just when he goes just remember this we won't even talk to you till you've got 10 years under your belt as a copper okay and that stayed with me i thought i won't even knock on their door till i've got some something in my back pocket something that says i've done it i can make decisions confident i'm used to confrontation i can back myself i know the job inside out so i went away and even though i didn't know i was going to join trojan i think in my subconscious i became an advanced driver um i got involved a ton of stuff and i think subconsciously i saw this one day i thought i'm going to come back here and i will i joined my 12 and i and i i know i'll be new i'll be green as an a of the officer and there's a ton to learn but i will have credibility i'll sit in that room and i'll look at them all and go you know i know you're all there i'm up there i'm not like you like you've all done it for years i'm here to learn and i've and and that credibility you know and also like i turned up i'm thinking you've got to bring something to the party so i'll bring calm i will not flap i'll be fit as a butchery so i was training i had the martial arts in the back pocket um and i was just thinking nothing i will be unflapped and i think about coppers and i think this is true of every copper you've got to be an expert and you know an expert whatever you do so handcuffing be an expert yeah So it's easy handcuffing at training school when the boat goes, get off.

26:29Exactly. It's like handcuffing your mum. I was like, yeah. Like the reality is, or maybe not my mum. Maybe I was going to say, my mum would kick off. But ultimately, be an expert. Whatever it is, be an expert. And so I was brilliant on maps. I was absolutely fabulous on radios. Because, you know, I'm jumping around here. But when you're in an ARV, an ARV, an armed response vehicle, it's got three people. And you've got specific roles. You've got the driver who's an advanced driver. and he's going to get you from A to B as quick as possible. So that's some full-out driving. Then you've got, in the back, you've got Maps.

27:00Now, in 2003, there's no computers. It's just a map. It's not a set map, is it? No, you're sitting there with a MacBook, right? And your driver's already driving at Walk Factor X, and you're like, and you're trying to read a MacBook as he is doing everything to make you sick, right? And I used to suffer with terrible car sickness, right? So Maps has been killed. And up front, you've got comms, and comms is probably the hardest job. Because you've got a radio back to the control room, to the Met, the main radio. Then you've got a radio back to the base, who will be giving you TAC advice. Then you've got the radio for the local borough.

27:33Then you've got a radio in your ear talking to the other cars. So when you run it, so if you're comms, you might have four radios on the go. And your adrenaline is pumping. Yeah. And then suddenly out of the blue, your phone goes. Pray God, and you miss it. Not now to hear. So it's full on. That operator is in meltdown. and so so you've got three of the creme de la creme in one car there exactly you've got three yeah okay yeah and what's that feeling like when you get to the scene but you haven't got a clue what the scene's about but you know someone's in the middle of a big drug deal or you know someone's robbing a bank or you know someone's about to shoot someone having a shoot off in the street what's that feeling like for you going into something like that well for me invariably it doesn't happen often sometimes you are around the corner and so you just react but in fact you know you might be driving from say central London to Hackney or Brixton or wherever.

28:24Those few minutes in the car, you're planning. 19 is the, you know, everything about 19 has you have a plan. And the plan might just be emergency search on me. That's the plan. Or it might be a lot more complicated than that. But ultimately, you're talking to the other cars. You're talking to the crew. You're being calm. There's no place for red mist, anger, screaming. Don't be wrong. You screw up on maps, the guy in drive is going to tell you because it's life and death. You jump on a motorway and there's no turning for five miles and some bloke's going to an address. This is life and death. So you cannot make mistakes.

29:00It's brutal. So if you mess up, you're going to hear all about it. So there is tension in the car, but it's a positive tension. Like everybody, everyone is like, excuse me, is firing on all cylinders. You have to perform. And you've got to remember the guy in the back is also, not only reading maps, he's got to load the guns. Sorry. The MP5s, which are in the safe. so it's a critical moment he's going to throw the map down open the safe get the mp5 out lock and leave you know mag in working parts forward check it's in battery which means it's ready to go select the leaves definitely a safe and he's going to pass it forward to comms he's got to take the gun get it on still doing comms you know and it's all going off or and the driver is still driving like you know whatever to get you there there's a so much happening in that car and then you hit the rvp or it might be go to that front door there's but he's in the address now he's attacking his miss or whatever you might just literally it's straight to the front door emergency search and you're in but so in that few crucial seconds but that's why the training is so great because sometimes you don't you know we're all firing we're all on the same page let's get in there and save life and but as an ofc operational firearms commander it's a course you go on and it leads you to plan firearms operations, lead firearms operations.

30:16It's not rank specific. You have sergeants do it, PCs do it, governors do it. I used to love it. I love nothing more than turning up and just saying, right, go, get me a black in, which means get the back. The back of a house is never the back. On firearms, the back of the house is always black. In fact, if you're ever out and you hear someone say, my black garden, you know, there are firearms obviously. So get me a black in. Someone gets cover the front door. Right, I need a team on me. What kit? And so you're working with really professional people. They know what roles. And there's this expression on firearms called filling in the gaps.

30:49And it's that ability. You're never a passenger. You turn up, you're looking around. What do I need to do? What hasn't been done? Right, first aid kit, get it out of the car. Who's got the long shield? Who needs this? Do you need that? Everyone's sparking. Everyone is doing their bit. And because you're surrounded by these people, things just run so smoothly. There's no passengers. and because we've all been through the same course the same intensity um there's no there's no free pass on trojan you know you have to perform and trojan debriefs were legendary in fact trojan dearies probably put more people off joining the department because you do a job back to the nick and then we'd sit down and you debrief every element of it literally in detail and and back in my day there was no body worn camera so you might get away with having a moment doing something dark yeah but now body worn camera everything's there for everyone yeah so debriefs are brutal but again not bullying but you know if your mistake could have cost someone their life or got someone injured or you know and that's what the world we're talking about worst case scenario then you have to know and you have to be told but it's but the thing i found and obviously i screwed up when i was new and because every job's different it's not like a template every job is different when's the point though every job is different but i'm trying to i'm trying to visualize this you're right you're going in bang that instant half a second whether you're going to pull that trigger or not what is that consequences for you if you do pull the trigger are you thinking consequences okay i'm going to take him out but consequences if i made a mistake or consequences that your boss is going that wasn't good enough you're going to get the sack well for a start on pulling the trigger is down there no one can order you pull the trigger I'm saying that in general terms.

32:34Terrorism is a bit of a different thing. But you go to a call, it's your training, it's your perception, your risk assessment. You're looking at the threat. I've never once thought, I mean, I don't think you could go to work and think about being an A-OV officer and thinking, if I do my job, I could be in a world of pain. If I do my duty correctly, I could get the sack or end up in court. You can't go to work like that. you have to go to work and just say i will do what is right well as i perceive to be right my risk assessment and that's why you gotta have calm heads yeah you know people who don't you know lose the plot and so you turn up and well it doesn't matter what it is you know i've had people come out and point toy guns i've had people come out with all sorts of stuff i had some idiot once he kept his back to me he's meant to have a gun and he just kept ducking down kept going down behind the car and i'm you know you met your threat assistance through the roof and i'm like mate just you know come on like you know show me your hands just show me your hands and then sure enough he jumps out and he's pointing his mobile phone at me i'm like do you want to get shot do you and he thought it was funny this was a guy who thought it was funny to to take you to the absolute edge you know fortunately i didn't shoot him but you know what some people might have going yeah he's done everything his everything about his actions is telling me he's got a weapon everything is ignoring all challenges and that and that takes us back to like swearing police officers in so 19 swear police officers everywhere swear because you have to dominate that person you have to and and there's you you if you've been told there's a guy in a car with a gun or three or four guys in a car and they're on the way to do really bad stuff and you stop them and stop a guy in the street and he won't show you his hands but keep your hands when you see him and he won't it's you know and you see american clips of cops getting shot all the time you know innocuous calls and then the guy suddenly shoots him like that in a blink that's how quick it happens you have to dominate them so the the language and i'll be honestly like you are saying show me your fucking hands and you are saying you better do it mate you have got to do you better comply because you're dealing with serious people people you've trained people are ready we're here and we're going to stop you and they've got to know that and by doing that by dominating them and swearing them in unbelievably aggressive they stay 99 advantage yeah exactly yeah of course and that's what you want verbal domination is everything and then and that's the great thing about the job and I got it from karate that that ability that the moment they drop the gun or the knife or they just lie on the ground and they comply it's like a switch you're like real cool again it's like not all running around for the next two hours all like ah you know and karate with that whole ability to yame the moment someone says yame like in boxing the bell the moment you're off yeah and then yame stop so if they're fighting the moment they stop fighting it's game over great they're in cuffs there's no cheeky shots no one's it's over they fought they're in cuffs we won that's because we have to win it's not you know that's i mean if you're listening to this and you're thinking of joining the police have a look in the mirror at yourself what are you bringing to the party are you fit and i don't mean six pack and i mean are you fit because it's not just say i can do the bleep test i don't even know what that proves yeah you know if you it's not just being fit you have to chase someone well what happens if you catch them well if they've ran they're probably going a fight so you've caught them well now you're fighting well if anyone has ever had a fight knows it's the most exhausting thing in the world all right and you might be on your jack so forget the bleep test what do you what do you bring in the party be fit be have mental grit are you tough can you take can you take the abuse you'll get can you and i don't think a lot of there's a lot of coppers now getting recruited that maybe aren't asking those questions and the job should be asking them like when i joined your job like i said my interview was brutally honest now ask me show me examples of when you were you know when you challenge someone in the you know like oh for god's really yeah really we need people i think the public deserve police officers will turn up who are fit and again i'm not mean superman but but fit motivated and handle themselves handle themselves and and you know like i've got a friend of mine his son is joining the police at the moment i'm about application in he's up at four o 'clock in the morning it's one office job was up at four in the morning in the town, jujitsu for an hour or whatever, coming home from work, he's out running, hitting the way.

36:52He's training every day. So even though he doesn't know law and all that stuff, he'll get taught that. But he's bringing something to the party. And when he hits a team, people will look at him and go, that's a fit lad. Yeah, I want him on my team. Exactly. You want to look left and look right. If you're playing rugby, you want to look left and look right. He's going to back me up. He's going to back me up. Do they, do you reckon the old Bill feel like that these days? You probably saw all over the press of the last week, lawn castle being sacked for swearing and pulling down a guy with a knife this big double-ended knife he's just been completely lost his 48 grand job got three kids yeah bam gone what are your thoughts on that well i watched it and loads of my mates obviously i'm retired now they're sending me some thoughts kev and i'm like well coming from firearms i think what he swore so what i mean

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39:09even a worst case scenario i mean he might i think he might have apologized or he said whatever he pleaded i don't care right he's probably under duress doing that trying to keep his job but the bottom line is in the good old days that would have been like the governor might even go mate you chill out and that'd been dealt with it would never have gone for gross and is it proportionate is it proportionate an officer's putting his neck on the line but he's like he's clearly an active cop he is not he is not shying away from work he is out there doing it and even if you go I reckon you should have enough stuff in the bank enough sort of collateral in the bank that if you make a little mistake you shouldn't be going for a misconduct hearing yeah agreed you should be in an office with your governor going mate you might want to chill out a bit and I'm not talking about law now I'm just talking in general you know you're a little bit overzealous there might want to turn it down a notch yeah yes I appreciate that maybe you've been written alright then we take it through it and warning but that all comes down to relationship with your boss or the boss going, I've been on the streets, I get it, I understand.

40:03But if your boss ain't been on the streets, they're calling the shots from the head office. Well, I do feel there's like a disconnect. I mean, when I was first on 19, our commissioner was Sir John Stevens. And I remember walking into Scotland Yard one day for a briefing and he was walking out and he was in a suit and we had a new lad from the counties who didn't recognise him and he didn't say hello. And Sir John Stevens turns around and he goes, excuse me, he goes, when do my armed officers not say hello to the commissioner? He loved it. He thought we were fantastic. he carried a gun himself he'd been a shot so the commissioner got it right um there's a senior officer in the moment in the met um matt twist i think i won't lie and get his rank wrong but he was a trojan one which was an inspector on firearms he's been a shot he's done loads of stuff um he'll get matt twist will get firearms right but how many people don't in fact there's a lot of people senior officers uh civilian roles but see firearms it's like you know like well can't they do more you know like i mean i remember one christmas we were told we had to do tickets tickets somebody in office decided so 19 it's like doing tickets cycle lanes or something and i was just like that is never going to happen but obviously a few of the newer lads were a bit pressurized some tickets and then i found out months later almost every one of them was was voided because they were so badly done what what what happens when you get a call and you know there's a terrorist attack what were you around on the london bridge yeah i was at london bridge were you in fact um yeah i mean um i was at london bridge one of the sort of you just fill in the gaps that's that classic moment i mean he'd already been dealt with hadn't he by the members of the public who'd stepped up and already taken him out but he had a vest on i believe so firearms officers were covering him and i believe he he did get shot in that thing all right so he was dealt with but then it's all the other stuff is there another attacker is there a third eye you know so i remember like just literally getting the team on me we cleared borough market right after that where we go now there was a mull under london britain so we cleared that because there's just because there's one there can be two there can be three you don't know if there's gonna be other and then you're thinking is this like multi-seated is it like paris is it gonna be an attack somewhere in in blue water or uh the west coast or that west gate center whatever so you're not just sitting there thinking well he's dealt with what now what now so car started getting put in sort of locations thinking right everyone's on standby what's next right and and that was dealt with brilliant in the public i mean talk about step up amazing incredible incredible and and one guy i think one guy just come out of come out of prison yeah i mean and you have to say you know talk about civic duty now bear in mind this guy had a vest on yeah they didn't care about their own personal safety they ran to the danger and that's what all coppers do i mean maybe that's what again the public you don't get it i mean that's no disrespect to the public like it's not it's not your world right but coppers go to work and for it's not great money they're putting their neck on the line and they really are and there's one job it is and what you want is to know that your governor and all the way up they've got your back yeah they're saying and even if you make a mistake if it's an honest old belief if you honestly believe that what you're doing is the right thing and then later on with hindsight we turns out that muggins or megan whatever people go we get you we understand you're a good cop this happened we understand you're not lose you're not getting a gross misconduct it's when police officers drive on blues and twos that's your license you haven't got a special police license gives you exemptions if you mess up or if someone else messes up and hits you you're getting absolutely scrutinized by traffic all right to see if you've messed up and i've had colleagues got a call there and you think right call comes out any trojan unit someone's doing about to do this you have to get there so you're you're driving safely, but you were driving.

43:48You were on blues and twos. Now, if there's an accident, you don't want an accident because if you don't get there, you ain't doing your job. But if someone, if you have a collision, you know, let's have a bit of understanding. Why were you driving that way? Why were you driving that way? Because I was trying to get there and stop. Oh, and I'll never forget this. It was just after Christmas, a few years ago, and I was in a car with a girl called Donna, ex-military girl, lovely lady, and my skipper PT, who's a beast. Sorry, Paul. and we're driving through Brixton it's whatever time and I'm going in that morning I'm flying I'm taking my triplets to Norway to see my brother it's a big deal yeah so I'm thinking I'm not getting off late I have to be on that flight right and it's like early hours and PT just goes do you know that car on the briefing that's been doing all the carjackings it's behind us I'm like and I look at them and there's this two proper bad gentlemen in the car behind me and they've carjacked that it's full of all the Christmas presents they're both meant to be armed with really large knives they've done multiple carjackings all over christmas and they have caused serious problems on brixton's ground and i'm thinking he'll blink first and next thing he does a sharp right into a side road obviously i've done a u-boat and now we're chasing him around brixton in the early hours and these are bad men they have to be stopped we're going down off there was it summer late in road to all the local units and we're flying down this road right in the early hours and then actually he must have clipped something right Next thing, he goes airborne, and he goes through a telephone box, through an eight, ten-foot wall, brick wall, narrowly misses this huge tree, and then crashes and catches fire.

45:24And we're out. We run to the car expecting a massive fight with these guys. But they're both unconscious because the airbags have gone. They are really fucked up. So now we're thinking, right, we've got to save them. So we drag these two out, checking they're okay. And I'm standing back, and I'm thinking, right, we've nicked them. We've got the car back. The car's a ride-off. so mum and dad ain't happy about that. But we open the boot, full of presents, so the kids are getting their presents back. I'm thinking, that's cool. And we're all laughing and thinking, good job. This is a cracking job.

45:52And then traffic turns up, and he's looking at this scene, like two people on stretchers, a car on fire, telephone gone. Christmas presents on the back, yeah. And I'm thinking, he's going to go, nice one, Trojan. He's like, can I see your permit? I'm like, come on, mate. How about a little bit of Christmas spirit here? Yeah. Yeah. And all he's thinking about is, well, have you driven to the safe driving policy? And they're like, come on, mate. Yeah. We're all on the same team here. You know, we're catching bad people. And that means, and there's a thing in the police now that for tactical contact where you can use your car to stop a car.

46:24And that's, you know, and I'm not saying we don't ram them, but, you know, you can force their car off the road, you know, put tea packing and all sorts of things. Have you ever been shot at? I've had guns pulled on me, yes. You have? Yeah. Tell me that. um well when i was on borough an unarmed officer i got a call to um from a proactive unit saying kev you're anywhere near i was driving the area car they said you anywhere near this road i went yeah and they said we've got a guy on foot we've got to have stop him so we're driving to this road and there he is guy in a suit proper lump and he's like he's off so i'm out on foot me and my mate we're chasing him and we're thinking what's this all about i haven't got a clue next thing He opens his jacket, turns around, and he's got this huge, great big handgun.

47:05And he's like, but as he brings the gun to bear, he trips on the curve, goes absolutely flying, and the gun goes flying through the air, which is a right result. Oh, right. And we jump on him, and it turns out he's Eastern European, this guy. So we're having a proper ding-dong with him, because they can fight. This guy can fight, right? And obviously, he's got a good reason to get away. So sure enough, he was an Eastern European. I always said he was Russian, but someone told me the other day it wasn't. But Trojan turn up to make the weapon safe to prove it. And it's a loaded firearm. It's an SLP self-loading pistol.

47:39So there's one in the breach ready to go. Was he going to shoot us? I don't know. Was he getting out to throw it? I don't know. But it's still one of those moments you think, well, that turned out okay, thank God. But it didn't put me off. It didn't put me off at all. It just made me like, this is the deal. I put my uniform on like a guy. You turn up and this is what you can walk into. and um and in trojan i've had people do all sorts of things i've had people and and again i think for me it was just about your training for me i trained and trained and trained you know to always be if i can't work to be the best to be the best i could be and and i wasn't the best shot i wasn't the best but as a package i know i was a sound day office yeah and i would turn up and people would trust me i know people would follow me and that's and that's people talk about leadership you had a lot of respect well yeah because I'd done it but also you get respect by how much you're prepared to risk I had kids but I wasn't sort of saying and I'm getting on a bit now I'm still out on the street I'm still taking the risk and because I love my colleagues I really do think the world of them they're taking the risk, I can't not in fact I reckon if I'd walked away and said no can I have a little side job or whatever and I'm sure they'd said yes because I was getting on a bit I just felt like I'd have been letting them down.

49:04I know I'd have been letting them down. And even though they could all do the job, they don't need me there. They're very, very capable people. Just something in me, I want to be there in the mix with them. And that's why you become an OSC. So you plan things, lead things. But also being sure, when I joined 19, I was often number one. But when you have an address, you search an address, you have a thing called a stick. and it's six or seven officers, guy at the front with his shield, his block, and you sort of breach the door, you call them out and if they don't come out, what they do? You're going to search that address and there's tactics for searching.

49:37Well, I was number one a lot and so that door goes in. If there's someone on the other side of that door and sometimes there was, you're the first person they see and sometimes they go for it, sometimes they don't. And some people do not want that role. Some people, it's just not, you know, me, I loved it. I loved being number one. I actually loved it. I just like, for me, it was just like that focus. Like, it's always like, and I know apologies to everyone listening, but you're closing down an address, you know, on an estate you've never been to in your life. There's maybe someone in the gun who's done whatever.

50:11And you're closing that address down and that door, and you have no idea how this is playing out. And this team are behind you and your one job is to protect them all, right? So they can set up on the door and do what they need to do. You're protecting them. I love that responsibility. I loved it. And then when I was the OFC, you were lit with maybe two or three down the stick. You got a number one protecting me. And you give them a little tap and they're smiling. And you think everyone would be highly stressed out, but they're not. There's winks and smiles. Sometimes we might have had to, because Trojan don't use lifts, and you all know that, Trojan officers.

50:46We always take the stairs. We never want to get stuck in a lift. So we might have gone nine flights of stairs and all that kit, bod, all the kit. You get to the whatever floor, and all you can hear on them is, everyone's like and and that's that moment where there's no fc you go like hold yeah we're all going to take a moment just reflect and then everyone gets their breath and they go right ready and then it's that look and that and and that's maybe one thing i miss that look of people like yeah let's go that trust and you and i don't know if you wear other sportsmen i think get that i really think sportsmen get it i'm linking this a lot with sport yeah well everything's talking about it just the yeah yeah the mindset yeah that will be the best that will win yeah looking out for your teammates there's all this going up a lot like rugby yeah exactly yeah and i and i used to create like the the ofc was like the scrum off or the fly whatever you know like you're at the back you're looking at everybody you're making the call stay on that hold that door we're going up these stairs or we've got someone in that room right they're coming out we're gonna hold that corridor you're making all these tactics up on on the hoof completely on the hoof there's no book saying you must do this you must do that it's that your instincts and your training but that look when you look at your mates and they wink or they give your thumbs up and like and you're thinking you know in the movie it's all so tense isn't it on swat everyone's like but it's not like that you're talking really cool people doing an extraordinary job and it is extraordinary i mean britain's a society of no firearms isn't it so the only people who have them apart from the landed gentry running around with shotguns right the only people who have guns are bad people and us yeah and there's not a lot of you and there's not uh so if you listen to this and you're a bad person there's plenty there's plenty enough and we're very well trained have you ever shot anyone i have how many just one person one person yeah tell me about that um well it involved other officers so i'm um and also discharged the firearm um but it was a siege and a male came out and he pointed a gun at us directly at me um and to save my life and to protect my colleagues behind me i fired two fired a number of rounds from my um from my sig and um and obviously and this is what people don't get i've done my i've acted to save my life and my friends right and completely justified in law no problem at all with what i did within i think it was six or eight seconds of taking that shot we'd gone forward kicked the gun out of his hand and we're kneeling down cutting his clothes off and saving his life and and so all these people who've digging out firearms or don't understand firearms do you know how many lives we must save and so he's got multiple gunshot wounds he is in a terrible state and we're there only second before thing he's trying to kill us and we're saving his life or trying to and not without hesitation you know you see in america shots in the police don't for all sorts of reasons don't seem to do their diving and be doing the first aid and i've no one's over the law right over there but 19 the first thing you do on 19 before you even pick up a gun you do a ballistic first aid course teaching about gunshot wounds because you know and that might be you you might get shot how to patch yourself up until you get help but invariably we're saving people and a lot of the time we're saving people on the from the other side of the tracks you know so you turn up it's it's a bad man's been shot or stabbed or whatever we're there there's no hesitation you you clear the area is it safe paramedics won't come to a you know we'll not turn up first till we've cleared it you can't have them in potential firearms incident so the call will come out any trojan unit we straight to scene always straight to what happened that day why did he come at you with a gun and for you to go bang how many shots did you let off i fired two five two okay yeah and are you told to aim at certain areas or you're just like our training well i'll go back the the call itself was a bloke who's um having a crisis and i think his wife had left a whole series of events and i think bailiffs had turned up with local police and that was the point for him to snap and he pulled a gun on them and they withdrew so obviously we deployed because now and so he's an address so we contain the address negotiators and he went on for hours they're trying to get him out safely but invariably he made the choice to come out and point a gun at police and that's his choice but trust me um every single effort was made to make him to get him to come out unharmed and and the negotiating skills of s19 officers are like legendary de-escalate but also de-escalate with the capability to respond you know so yeah we're talking down but we're armed and and we're ready and we're ready and we're not backing off and i mean for me the proudest thing about that day for me was that um i didn't hesitate i didn't flinch at my training my try i trained for years for and you and you might do your whole career and never pull the trigger and that's great yeah it's brilliant but i train i my mum once said to me goes you've got an interesting life care and she goes i wonder if you were born under a dark cloud or a black cloud i asked thanks mum and she He goes, things happen to you.

55:58And that day it happened to me. But to the people I was on that corridor with, I was with absolutely fantastic police officers. My skipper behind me, the guy on my left, the boys and girls behind me, they were just unbelievably professional. And that would mirror every relief. There's no bravado, there's no blah, all this alpha male nonsense. You're talking really professional people who love doing the job. So shots were fired. and did he die no he didn't okay um but within seconds of doing of doing my duty which i'm extremely sort of spot on about um my colleagues were in there saving his life and it's it's a gory business you know and then i remember what a really great mate of mine lifting up my body arm it's like as a shooter like you've got you've got things to be going to do now and then they stepped in and they took over the first aid um and and then you go into the whole world of uh the investigation it's called a pip of their change post-incident procedure and everyone wants a part of you and that's the thing as well you know like the you know if you do discharge your firearm you don't just go home you don't just like write a little note and go home about it you you were there i mean i just that morning i've been up at four or five coming for an early turn i didn't go i didn't leave the base the following day till say six or seven in the morning um so you've been on duty 20 or 30 whatever it was you're physically drained and everyone wants to know every you know you've got right statements you've got to see a doctor you've got to be there's a whole lot they've got to check your kit the iop the iopc or whatever they're called now they changed the thing and the dps the people who investigate police obviously investigate police you got they come up on the range with you and you unload your weapon in front of them you know and they check how many rounds you've got so they can work marry that up back them sort to the shots fired at the scene.

57:49So it's like a huge investigation into you pulling the trigger. Absolutely. And again... Do you agree with that? Well, there has to be. There has to be some investigation, but do you feel the investigation is too much? Well, do you know, I think pips are a strange thing. For that one, myself and my co-shooter, we went back and we went to Lehman Street and we were sitting there. And they said, right, you're not allowed any printouts of the incident. You're not allowed anything. no paperwork at all and we're like well our notes are going to be pretty scant then because i don't know the name of the block i don't know what time it's called i don't know the the reference number for the call i don't know other units so and they decided that the information that would no way of changed what actually happened or the notes we'd write but it would have been invaluable to us to give a sort of give some sort of um background to it all weren't allowed and somebody somewhere I thought that's a great idea.

58:45And so every shooting, there'll be somebody in authority making decisions, you know, that they think, you know, for transparency, transparency. You know, you've got a camera on. You've got so many officers. What, today? Or back then you had a camera? We had a camera. We had a camera, okay. And there's multiple witnesses. You know, it's tough. It's really tough. And I remember getting home the following day and my wife is just like, you're right. I'm like, you know, you're shat. Yeah. and then you're off work for months while they investigate they take you off work yeah you're not suspended but you're off ops so you're sat at home and you could go into the nick but all you can do just walk around so i'm making tea so you're sat at home and my poor she must have thought i mean i'm not great sitting around the house i must have drove her bunkers so more importantly they the thing that you love doing getting up every single day roaming the streets bam a call that's taken away from you yeah and how long was that taken away from for but i'm gonna you know I'll be lying a number of months maybe four or five months wow and that's a long time it's a long time and as was a stone bunker it's like it was an absolute stone bunker but you know you hear about police investigating police can take years I mean how long was your the police officer in Bournemouth how long did that take to go to I think it was 18 months 18 months yeah something like that you couldn't do that to members of the public if you sort of they're in the you know they get nicked and they're caught whatever how can you leave a copper hanging on a gross misconduct for 18 months the stress at home can you imagine his poor wife thinking about the mortgage the kids yeah the whole lot yeah and he's won the whole nation over it's now come out now he's won the whole nation he's gone on a podcast gone on the big TV channels the whole nation are behind him yeah like does that make the police look silly for making that call I don't know like they've got a really tough job in the country we're in at the moment yeah but you've got a really good copper there yeah in the times when at the moment who is finding people nicking them and bringing them back yeah what he was saying was is that the police didn't want people being brought back to keep their numbers down.

1:00:47Well, do you know what? Crime figures, you know, no one likes people higher up the food chain you go. Crime figures are always a problem, aren't they? Yes. You know, because no one wants to admit crimes on the uprising. It's rising. No one wants to say that burglars aren't getting solved. It's bad. It's bad for government. But, you know, government has done a great job in just breaking the police, haven't they? You go back to Theresa May obsession with stop and search. You know, but this guy's running around with zombie knives and every kind of weapon you can. Now, stop and search was a fantastic tool.

1:01:14Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, used properly. And every copter knows that, especially now you've got cameras. You weren't just not walking up to X and going, come here, son. Yeah. You know, you've got your grounds. You tell them they're detained. You go through the whole process. And it's done properly. But Theresa May was obsessed with stop and search. And just, it seems this break police culture, break, you know. I remember austerity came in in 2008. The banks, you know, wrecked everything, didn't they? First thing the Met seemed to do was shut every canteen in the Met. Yeah. which probably seems trivial to people but suddenly now you've got it's like a bond exactly canteen culture absolutely it was almost like well hold on every time something bad happens or something good we'd all be in the canteen and for half an hour we'd debrief it we'd all sort of de-stress well well done or maybe not well done but that canteen culture was fantastic for camaraderie absolutely have they taken that away of them?

1:02:03around the Met you can't I mean they took away the canteens so the knock on effect of that is now we're in public well and then you get there's always some smart mouth enough of you yeah why aren't you nicking burglars hold on yeah yeah i don't come in your workspace with your flipper you know and and it was it's incredible the amount of people who think that and then cobblers and having their dinner in cars parked up by the side of the road but so public perception is oh why aren't they doing whatever this is their meal break this might be the meal break they put off for five hours because they've gone from call to call to call you know there's you know there's no there's no sort of um dodging it if it's an i india which is like an immediate call like a danger something bad's happening you're going right you're going to you're going to a dangerous call right and you can't just say oh i'm having hot refs you know let someone else go because the box is empty so officers are not eating they've been you know they're off late and that's the deal suited me I've no problem with that.

1:03:01But you then have got to have some support. What would you like? I'm listening to you now as a serious, well-respected copper who is in at the right time. If you could wave a magic wand, what you're seeing going on in the UK at the moment with the knife crime, the zombie knives, people getting robbed left, right and centre of their mobile phones in the daylight, watches going, people with hammers on the head, watches being, what would you do right now? I think I'd probably go back a step. I think for a start, I wouldn't have got rid of 10 ,000 policemen or whatever that figure was when the government sort of package, you know, we started losing police.

1:03:34The number one thing for police is morale. Police officers, most police officers don't join for the money. It's like they have their, you know, whatever their reasons. Right. So. Make them feel valued. Yeah. Support them. Right. Really make. And the first people you want to support are the borough officers, not the specialist roles. They're also in response. You go early, late and night and can turn up at anything, often single, crude. Yeah. Support them. You know, make them feel special. Maybe even have a bonus payment. If you stay in response, make response somewhere people want to stay. Yeah.

1:04:08You know, don't dumb it down. You know, when I joined, we had Hendon. Yeah. He went in 20 weeks of absolute... Intent training. Yeah, intent. If you weren't training physically, you were in the classroom and you were studying, studying. You left there like a little robot. You had it all ready to go. fit as anything i was like i just have a 10 stone when i left right um and now you know hendon's it's not residential anymore we've got this it could be it could you could be going when you go to hendon now it's just all white plastic shiny it could be on apple yeah right it was an institution hendon it was world famous right you went there the gates were shut 20 weeks of living it discipline you were buying into a disciplined service there was no me me me it was about the collective it was like you were becoming a cop do you think that's gone out of the police force i think that people have tried to alter it i think they try to change the culture of it you know i think that my the generation the general generations before me that we all went through the same system and now we're betraying that the younger officers have been betrayed people don't want to stay in response because it's just grief and complaints lots of officers leave or go and get desk jobs or go and get on whatever do you know what do i find amazing here keith right i've obviously we've got our businesses our other businesses here we had two students join us straight out of uni both got degrees one was a fantastic sales girl for us five foot three she left off a couple of years and went and joined the police force other one was a graphic designer 21 years old went and joined the police force they're both wonderful people i think imagine me knowing them well enough that they're now going to go and try to nick people on the streets with people carrying knives and then running around and I just can't get my head around here.

1:05:53Well, they might be fantastic coppers. Great negotiators. They might be great coppers. I have full respect to everything they're doing, but it just makes me go, I remember my granddad always saying you had to be a certain size or a certain weight or a certain height or something to be a copper back in the day. Well, do you know what? I suppose ultimately you can be a cracking cop, whatever size, whatever. But let's not dumb it down. Let's set really high standards. Let's make it special. Let's just join in the police. When I join the police, I remember going the first day at Hendon, we were in this huge auditorium, and this superintendent got up and he said, every one of you here, there's 2 ,000 or 3 ,000 people, whatever it was, you took their place.

1:06:28That's how special it is. And we expect the absolute best of you, the very best. And you felt you were joining an organization that was special, that was elite, that was going to go out there and make a difference, right? And it just seeped into you, right? And now I just think, like, the recruits joining now. they have to do this like degree course and they're writing essays pointless essays and that's corporate nonsense if you really why do they do that they've got enough to learn just being a copper yeah and obviously there's follow-up training and our follow-up training we'd go to a training center and we'd have you know sergeants and whatever and we do physical exercise as well make sure we kept our fitness going and more exams all of it all of it making you feel that you were a bit developed and developed and now you know like i just feel like you know they join they're way down with nonsense just nonsense like there's a package going around the moment that may have got some sort of leadership course i'm like do you really think three days in an office you know with a few you know that you're forced to go to is going to make you a better sergeant or a better leader you know leadership really you know you need people who you know the cream will rise right some people don't want to be leaders but every relief will have it might be a pc might be skip or a will have people who do want to grab hold of things who do want to lead and you need to inspire those people for me it's enthusiasm you know every time you go somewhere you want to see people with smiles on their face and you don't see copper smile it's like grief just what it's what's the next group there was a thing the other day i can't remember what it was all is in it was in the press like 79 of coppers aren't happy being a copper on a survey stress incredible or incredible or stressed or there's problems or they're not enjoying it.

1:08:15But a lot of them are staying on for their pension. Yeah. Just being hold on. I've got another few more years. I've got my pension. Another few more years. But I was chatting to Lorne about it and he said there's a lot of coppers who don't want to go and nick someone because they're thinking, I'm on 35 grand, 36 grand. I could lose my life here. I've got a family at home. Yeah. I've got kids at home. Do I really need to be dealing with that? Well, like, and I find that, I find, I understand why coppers might not want to go to an incident. Yeah. I get it. Yeah. I get it. So how do we change that mindset?

1:08:41How do we change the mindset of that? Because I've seen over the last, definitely the last 10 years, the knife crime rate in the UK is off the charts. You know, we used to look at America and go, they're all bonkers. They've all got guns. We never really had anything. We weren't guns, there wasn't a massive knife. Now they're looking in, you see people being interviewed on podcasts going, hey, you guys in England, you're all crazy. You've got these big zombie knives, you're smashing. It's like, wow, times have changed very quickly. Surely there must be a law. Someone go, if you are caught with a zombie knife or a knife on you, five years, bang, prison.

1:09:16Can you not just do that to make it a deterrent to stop everything? Well, for that, you're going, that's a society thing, isn't it? I mean, people blame the police. But ultimately, the police are affected by governments. And successive governments have just hammered the police. Just hammered it. And if you rip the guts out of it and the morale and the joy and the fun and the laughter and like we're in this together and you dumb it down, then guess what happens? You've taken an organisation that really was, and the Met were, looked at them, Met's the ID officers, training school. Amazing. Yeah.

1:09:49I mean, when I was at training school, the Japanese had police over, the Italians visited because it was like a finishing school for policing. You know, but now, you know, it's just cheap. What's the cheapest? I mean, the pay's, you know, knocking the pay. No support. Yeah. and you can see and are they recruiting the right people like ex-military are just make good coppers not all but they are they get the discipline they used to work in the not all police soldiers make great coppers but why aren't we reaching out to the military why aren't we what would you do then what would you do today to reduce knife crime what law would you bring in to go right if you are caught with that sorry mate you're banged up because that if you if everyone if your mates were going I've just Tommy's been caught with what's he called he's got five years everyone else is going to go sod that I'm throwing mine away or well I suppose because sentencing for possession of a live firearm loaded firearm is so you know a lot of people don't carry guns because let's be honest they don't want to go away for 10.50 whatever so what is it if you're caught with a gun yeah on the street what's the minimum what 10 years I don't know right I'm out of touch okay yeah but you're talking a serious custodial sentence right but you imagine so a lot of people aren't carrying loaded firearms yeah Of course, there still will be a lot of people to do.

1:11:06But the people with knives, imagine if you just came out, a government came out and just said, right, as of 1st of January or whatever, if you are stopped in the street with somebody, you are going to get two years in prison. Five. Whatever, yeah. Two's not as much of a deterrent. Well, such as they're letting people out. Yeah, they're letting people out after this. Bang, five, wallop, stop this crime rate. Get the requirement for that to that. It'll happen in days, weeks, months. but people have to know that if they get caught i mean i'll never forget this is a straight up on this has gone back a few years but it probably gave an indication i am there was a robbery in labrick grove and i chased uh got behind the guy he hit someone with an axe to get their rolex french guy and we chased this lad down the road he turned around with a proper ding dong with this little axe and uh turned out he's only 15 14 15 and we went to juvenile court and i'm giving my evidence and um the the people on the bench were like can we stop you there you've called him the suspect twice and you've done this and he goes his name's x yeah but you call him by his first name i'm like he's a juvenile you're showing a bit of respect i'm like hold on hold on he sits someone with an axe who came at me yeah so um anyway we went through it all anyway he gets found guilty and then they said and this is straight up because i couldn't believe it and the victim is in court he goes stand up and the lad stands up and he's like 14 15 he goes how much pocket money do you get a week i'm like pocket money they're so out of touch he goes well we're gonna have to talk to you he didn't get a custodial did he not not even a custodial so this is what i suppose i was in trojan 18 so we're talking a good few years now but society was already going away if you've got a weapon and you've used it and you're not getting banged up yeah come on it's letting out that other people know get away with it yeah exactly so the other gang members are thinking hold on yeah you know so and i remember the french guy come out of court he was absolutely devastated he goes i've come back all the way you know to court to see british justice and he goes I just can't believe what I've witnessed.

1:12:59And I think, you know, society deserves better, but not from coppers. Coppers are out there. I mean, I won't stop. Fair play to all coppers out there, by the way, because you're doing a good job at a tough, tough time. Respect. Yeah, but that's where government and judges, you hear about judges making decisions that are just ridiculous. But we'll sack a copper for swearing, right? But how about the judiciary and government or whatever? Sit down and say, if we're serious, I mean, you really are serious about stopping it. then you're like I say let's give him five years done done and if you use it but you don't just say that's common sense like just do it today surely you just go bang five years yeah surely why is no one even thinking about it yeah well because there's no will is there there's not really a will I've got a friend of mine Lou she was walking down Kensington Eye Street with her dog geezer comes running towards her guy comes to the side pinned her down car comes up the side they put her head on the head a face on the thing put her knee on the thing whip her watch off bam off 3pm on a Saturday afternoon in Kensington broad daylight if you're prepared if they're prepared to do stuff in broad daylight in those areas like that you're prepared to do anything absolutely and what happens they're off different number plate bang they're gone what can they do they'll be like oh sorry there's an insurance there's an insurance claim for you I suppose it's the risk reward what are your chances of getting caught right so and then if you do get caught what's really going to happen to you yeah you know so is it worth it yeah probably worth having a go and remember that that's the one how many have they done that day that week that month right i mean yeah exactly you know the public deserve better but and i and i i say this the boys and girls doing it are doing their best absolutely right but yeah exactly and they are putting their neck on the line and and they really are out there battling but but then it's no good it's no good getting someone to court and then they're not getting banged up yeah and the public want that And then you'll say, well, we haven't got enough prisons.

1:14:53Well, we pay enough taxes. We all do. A load of criminals out of the prisons. Let's feed up space. Get the knife people in there. Bang, done. Yeah, exactly. But, you know, people are going, let's build prisons. Let's start thinking of... But there's no money to build prisons. That's the problem. It comes back down to money. It's this full circle of... Yeah. Yeah, but why isn't there? Because we're wastage. Yeah. Do you know, I wish sometimes we had governments that thought longer than the next election. You know, we can... Four years is too short. I just want someone with some common sense. Yeah.

1:15:20surely someone out there common sense who can be a leader we all look up to who's optimistic and get guys follow me I'm all like yeah I'll follow you yeah I'm sick of hearing austerity yeah we've got another austerity coming why we pay enough taxes when did you leave I quit I retired in 2021 and how old were you in 2021 57 and what was that feeling like knowing that you were going to leave something you absolutely love oh well that's what I went that's what I went abroad yeah because I knew and my wife knew that the idea If we were walking around wherever and I thought, hey, I've been going past me, I'd probably broken it.

1:15:55I've been waving at him like, come back. I absolutely loved it. My last day, I was in tears. I bet. I can see your passion, but yeah, mate. But you know what? And I liken it to, you see a lot of sportsmen, and no, we're not sportsmen. They're athletes, whatever. But you imagine, say, you play rugby and you've been in some... And you get... From 14 and you've been all through the cadet. and then you've had your whole career right and then and then and you see when i get mental health issues they start drinking or because they're removed from that circle of trust suddenly they're not and purpose yeah passion because even mates bring me now who's still in the job and we have a right laugh and we gossip and like you do but ultimately i haven't got a warrant card in my pocket anymore i'm not doing it and they are and it always makes me feel a little bit uh i'm no longer in the circle i'm outside it because they're still doing it and i and i'm really proud to know and really respect them but and i and my wife's like no but you did your bit but i could do it again i would do it again if you got called up now to lead a team and train a team would you go you know i fancy this again well do you know it's funny to say that the met put out an application a while back for um a leadership could teach leaders and uh carrie my wife said you'd be good at that.

1:17:13So I put in, I didn't even get through the paper sift. Right. And I know I can walk into a room and I can get people on the side and I can say, look, come on, yeah, everything's shit. Governments don't care. Society's blowing up, but that doesn't matter. We can still turn up. In fact, the world's blowing up. Brilliant. We're going to be busy. Let's fix it. Let's fix what we can fix. Let's be energetic, motivated, do a great job. So even if everyone else is screwing up, we're doing our job and there's a great there's a great clip from southlands this great cop series and this cop is and he just goes do your job i do mine and that's what i thought about 19 and borough officers we're doing our job we're doing it so everyone else step up tell me what you wear on a day you know when you see when i see you look on the on the around the streets or straight away there's instant respect there's instant respect i find that when we see you with your caps on and you da da da da there's an instant respect there but there's not it doesn't seem to be that instant respect for your normal copper walk in the street do you know do you think there would be if you change the uniform a little bit that would make because when you go to spain and you see those old people walking around and they've got the the army boots on and they've got a cap on the side you think jesus can't mess with them do you think that could help well i think that um perception so the optics of it you think that um we're not paramilitary are we we're not spain were not italy like i'm in the caravan area and they dress like supermodels yeah you go boss um but the met i mean when i first saw in 19 we were running around in white shirts epaulettes and we were just bobbies we were just dressed like your london bobby that tourists would see yeah with firearms yeah uh and then the kits evolved now we're in all this stuff uh it's all black and tactical as it should be and we're specialists but yeah you know make people really feel good about themselves and you're right you know you walk into going to get some food in peckham brixton lewisham hackney and you walk into wherever and you're like you're in your kit bod boots glock taser and you and they're looking at you thinking real deal yeah real deal real deal you're not getting in 19 yeah unless you are he's well trained yeah don't muck about him have some respect yes and you see get you know there's no games no no banter yeah you know hello blah blah blah polite interaction you know and we sort of go our separate ways um police officers you know but maybe police officers of some police officers let themselves down you know like i saw a clip recently of police officers having nail varnish to you know in some and then male police was wearing high heels to understand of something for i'm like you are delusional if you think the public are going to respect us and i thought in coppers before are rolling in their graves like what are you doing police officers on TikTok filming themselves dancing yeah like what are you doing I mean you know engagement teams yeah engagement's great but how about get with engagement teams and go back to homebeats a good a friend of mine Neil who was a homebeater at Notting Hill forever and that basically meant that every day he didn't respond to calls and stuff he went out into his area he knew everybody he was shopkeeper he knew everybody he just knew and they would say look thing is going on that's happening this homebeats proper coppers who go out and the community see and they're reassuring but they can come back with intel going we need to look at that address you know it's all comes down to money yeah but are we wasting money on nonsense well we're wasting money we go and chat about the whole subject we're wasting money everywhere giving money imagine if we had a great pot of money and people in your local town are seeing bobbies walking around yeah like we don't see it anymore yeah but when I joined I mean I wish I'd had an Apple watch or something then because I came two years I wasn't allowed in the police car you're a probationer don't even look at a car you're walking walking everywhere so I was at 10 ,000 steps forget it I was at 20 yeah easy and they used to I'm sure in the control room because Notting Hill had its own little control room all stations did and they'd go Kev can you take a burglary and they'd send me to the top of the grounds right and they'd go and it was like ping pong they'd go Kev can you now go to this sector and I'd go yeah and then they'd send me a bit and I was just going left right centre but you enjoyed that didn't you I was fit I got to know people and also you learn you learn your trade because when you're on your own on foot you'll meet lovely people and occasionally meet some really bad people and you've got to deal with it and again that you know that ability to find yourself stand on your feet face threats and the public and i met so many cool people doing it um and it was great for me and then come the day the racers actually let me in a police car i couldn't believe it you know but i'd earned the right you know and the public saw me every day just trolling around you know kev tell me the name of your book right well it's nice of you mentioning it um it's called watching react which is a reviews are amazing by the way i know yeah i must admit to everyone has written a review thank you i mean really from the heart i can't believe it um the book well the title watching react is a firearms thing when you're on the range um the instructor you're loaded you're ready to go the targets are faced away so they're feathered and the final thing you hear is the instructor will shout watch and react watch and react target will turn you draw and you engage the target and for me after 18 years of living that but it also meant more is like police officers that's what we do we we just react we turn up and we react life is like that isn't it yeah you know just you watch and you react you respond you make something positive and and and so i wrote the story because no one's ever written a book about what it was actually like to drive around in a car where two other people are armed and just see what happens.

1:22:46Some good, some bad. And the impact on you because sometimes it does get you and some of the things you see. But so on the book, and also, you know what, and apologies to all of you, but it was like a bit of a homage to my mates because no one's ever mentioned their names. And all through the book, I've sort of used nicknames that they had and what I called them. And they know they are because I was just surrounded by unbelievable coppers. That is just such a nice thing to hear. I can't tell you how nice that is to hear, to be surrounded by unbelievable coppers. Yeah. What a nice, what a nice.

1:23:19Yeah, and I'm not saying we're saints. No, I know that. We all go to church. No, of course, of course. You've all got your quirky sides up. Yeah. Knowing you have got a solid team around you the whole time. Yeah. And then people would join. I remember the first time we got a female officer on my team. And we got a girl joining. And she went on to do great things. And she knows who she is. It's fantastic copper. And, you know, it's constantly evolving and more girls will come in here. And you're thinking the team, you know, new people turn up. Well, they fit in, but they do. And they buy into the ethos.

1:23:51If you have a culture, a good culture, they buy into it. And suddenly they're becoming part of the e-relief culture or the D-relief or the C-relief. And you're surrounded by these people who are occasionally, you know, shouting and screaming and, you know, banging their head on a wall. but ultimately when you're surrounded by professionals who are just full of enthusiasm and want to be good really really want to do the job well you know like it doesn't matter about the rest of the world yeah i don't care you know i can't control the government i can't control senior officers they've got their own agenda probably getting themselves on a nice committee when they retire and writing a book about how stressful it was yeah right what about the boys and girls who are getting x amount of money to do unbelievably dangerous stuff very little backup up um and what about them and for me the book was about that that's good for you you know and and and also you know like i wanted my kids to know you know just a few of the things that absolutely kev i've absolutely loved this mate well i hope i hope you haven't been boring no mate no certainly not mate you you speak really well what a professional like when i sit here now i go what a professional what a team player what a leader like you've got every single credential you know and and and you come with humor as well like you're ticking every single box here and i just think what what a gentleman you are and i really appreciate you coming down here and flying over and coming into the do this podcast you're a superstar mate well i go from the bottom of my heart thank you so much don't make me cry i cry too easy but um thank you so much for inviting me i've absolutely loved it you did calm my nerves good um uh thank you for mentioning the book i think is i didn't come here for that i know because if you are watching this and you're going to join in the police prep prep yourself prep yourself mentally and physically and don't forget bleak tests and that get fit get tough yeah and and then accept it's going to be hard because it is a great job and this is for your boy yeah yeah and max i'm here i'm doing it for real and i didn't embarrass myself i don't think so to all the people i love um who are worried about me doing this um thank you for your support you know you are you're a good man thank you so You're the best, mate.

1:25:58You're a gentleman. Good man. Right, bye everyone. Woo! That was really good. Is that okay, Alex? Yeah, mate. Really good. Honestly, that's really good. I've done 300. I've got little goosebumps. Oh, well. Gents, thank you so much for having me. That was really fucking good, Kev. It's really kind of you. I promise you, mate. Hi, guys. I really hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. Can you do us a favour and leave us a review as it massively helps us grow the show? Cheers, guys.

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