#308. Convicted Hitman & British Prisons Uncovered - Kevin Lane

0:00So what A category were you? Triple at one point. Triple A. And explain to the listener what a triple A actually means. What did you originally get convicted for? Oh, straight in, eh? So I was arrested for contractualism. For 16 years I was kept in a high security estate. Balmarsh, Franklin's, Long Larton, Woodhill. What's the worst thing you've seen in prison over the years? People throwing oil in people's faces, ears falling off, gangs attacking one person, stabbing them, and he's having boiling hot fat put over his head. His head went like crackling. Are you still watching your back? Things have changed for me.

0:33I have contracts on my life, down to people being paid to just try and scar me. Some documents were sent to my solicitor from an anonymous source as a result of that cast serious doubt over my conviction. Are you done with going back to prison? I'm done with prison, but whether or not prison's done with me. Now, remember that a screw come to me, he said, I don't know what you've done, he said, but on your record it's written, you're not going to be released, you're very old or dead. What on earth goes through, Edwin, you know you've gone behind bars for 18 years? knowing you're sat in a cell every single day.

1:09Welcome to the Eventful Lives podcast. I'm your host, Dodge, and I'm the founder of Bournemouth Sevens, the world's largest sport and music festival. On this podcast, I speak to proper characters of all lived eventful lives. Do us a favour and hit that follow button and be sure to check us out on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok at Dodge Woodall, where we've now had over 100 million views. Kev, welcome to the show, mate. Dodge, welcome, mate. Pleasure. And again, yes. Again, nice to see you. And you, thank you. Let's roll our way back. What did you originally get convicted for? Oh, straight in, eh?

1:42So I was arrested for contract killing in 1995, January, and convicted at the old Bailey Court too. And I spent 20 years in prison for that conviction. I can't name the deceased with respect for the family now but I was arrested placed in Balmarsh Special Security Unit I had two trials found guilt in a 10-2 majority second trial which is quite a feat really when you've got helicopters above you escort taking you to court you've got armed police guarding you

2:23bulletproof vests in the cafe van that the staff are wearing in case someone tries to break in or have an armed escape. And I said, well, where's mine in case you fucking like me and shoot me? But, like, you know, it's very serious. And then convicted, went to White Moor Special Secure Unit. So when you got convicted, what was your sentence? Well, I didn't get my sentence until three years after my conviction, which is quite odd. So you were on remand for three years? No, I got convicted after 14 and a half months, after two trials. when I got convicted it took another three years before I got my sentence which is bizarre and I got it a tariff through the post because if you get a recommendation in the court that means you will serve at least what the judge says yes and it's open court that's a different to me the recommendation and the tariff a tariff you get from the uh the secretary of state and it signed off and I got that on New Year's Eve and they gave me 18 years which at the time was quite high for a murder of such, and then I served 20.

3:27And I still would have been in prison now for that, because the police asked for 30 years in open court. They asked a judge to censor me to 30 years. So you did 20 in total? The reason I got released early was that, so I classed early, some documents were sent to my solicitor from an anonymous source. They came out of the police files. As a result of that, there was a lot of worry, concern, The Guardian reported on it. Mysterious files come to light, cast serious doubt over my conviction. And I was catapulted through the system and chucked out the gates at a great pace of knots. Can you name all the prisons that you've been to over those 20-year periods?

4:06Oh, bloody hell. I was kept majority in high, well, all the time. For 16 years, I was kept in high security estate. So you're looking at Whitemore Special Secure Unit, Prison Within a Prison. Then Balmage Special Secure Unit. Again, it's got its own walls, its own fences within that prison. It's another separate prison. It's like a dollhouse system. Franklin, Long Larton, Woodhill, High Down. And I've bounced around them. I think I had 18 moves in four years. I never went anywhere other than the high security estate. I never went to Wakefield, Monster Mansion. I never went to full Sutton. Two prisons I never sent me to.

4:50But other than that, that was it really, in the high security estate. But that was the high security estate at the time. And although you're in the special security units, you've still got a prison outside of that, which is Belmarsh for single A's and even double A's at some point. So what A category were you? Triple at one point. Triple A. and explain to the listener what a triple a actually means are you walking around with a different clothing on are you walking around with being chained different set of rules so you have a high risk which is double a um and you're held in a special secure unit and then permanently closed visits you're not able to come into contact with other inmates if you're lesser of that grade there was only seven of us at that time and i was they were convicted IRA on remand from the escape out of Whitemore Special Security Unit, an armed escape they had.

5:46They then got sent to Balmarsh Special Security Unit on remand pending the escape charges. I was on remand, they were convicted remand. I was on remand for the contract killing and they made me AAA. I was the only man in the country at that time, triple category whilst on the mind facing a trial so i'd meet my solicitor and barrisher through a screen which is bizarre really i mean and michael howard at that time passed a law to bug my legal visits yeah and he said it wouldn't have an impact on your trial but how can you be listening to someone's legal visits it's not right stuff like that really you're checked every 20 minutes in your cell your um every time everywhere you moved you've got a helicopter above the the armed escort so it's quite intense everything goes through the secretary of state and the prison director nothing goes in relation to you goes unless it goes through them do you know who killed i wasn't there but i can certainly say that the evidence says it wasn't me and that in my book, Fitted Up and Fighting Back, it eloquently sets that out in that I've just submitted my application again to the Criminal Cases Review Commission.

7:10I met with a senior official and they told me to submit my application with my book attached to it and everything I say in my book will be investigated. Which for the viewers, Dodge, when I did my previous interview with you, I think it's episode 91, we go into quite lengthy detail about my conviction there however it's nice now to know that my book has been out four years has now been it's subject to a judicial consideration yes so it's not just a bestseller in reading it's the content in there is being considered for grounds of appeal for my application to so when your grounds of appeal now what does that look like are you appealing at the moment i've the appeal system means you have to go through the criminal cases review commission once you've been convicted so yes basically i am they're now reconsidering my conviction based on everything they said and fitted up and fighting back i hold it up so people can see it yeah it's a fantastic book there we go it's a bestseller and the uk's mr shawshank that's the one so i think over the last few days alone just for me 60 copies um so that is the judicial consideration in there what are you hoping for what's the best outcome for you personally as kev lane knowing that you've spent 20 25 we'll talk about the recalls but spent 25 years behind bars what's your best outcome as we sit today if you could wave a magic wand best outcome uh conviction squashed i can disappear out of this country and go and live a new life okay straight away well what you've always wanted to do come and go as i see fit and not just a I seek permission to stay in a hotel, go and see my mum, basically wherever I go, and not have to wear one of these tags on my feet.

8:59Tags of your feet, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. See that? So that tag is actually on my foot to protect me because of the false allegations that keep being made against me. So I've got a tag on there, really, to see where I'm going. People say, well, he's been here and he's done that. They say, well, he hasn't actually. We know where he's been. It's a bit of an inconvenience, but it's protecting me. and what false allegations have you had against you oh god i've been to people's houses threatened them um luckily i had a a tracker on the car at the time and the police said we know where you've been i knew i had a track on a car it's brown spanking new i bought it for mercedes drove it to the showroom and i went to brooklyn so he said there's a device in your car so can you please leave it on there yeah and the ira boys told me that he said anything you find leave on there for the reason, Kevin.

9:43And from that, it ended up protecting me. So he's using the system to safeguard me. So I have allegations like that against me. And I've had allegations of common assault, which is, I can't really go into the details on that, but I'm free, I've been released. Vexatious and malicious allegations is what he was teamed at. So what's your life been like since you've just come out of prison? How long have you been out now for? Been out for two months. what's your life been like this past two months oh god i've been doing a lot on the horizontal shuffle

10:20making up for lost time here we go uh quite it took a month from to get the tag on me for him to come and fit it busy i mean last month i had two days off where i wasn't here there and everywhere else interviews and stuff like that and again i'm picking where i want to go now and who i want to do um great really in in some senses but tiring nice to be free yeah i'd rather be out here with them problems not problems but a hectic diary then sitting in a cell looking at the ceilings yeah lucky i'm lucky to have the support and the and the interest in my case and myself very fortunate to all the supporters with some fans can you get can you if this comes to light and they squash it and say you know what it wasn't you who did that contract killing can you get paid off at all a miscarriage of justice is different to an unsafe conviction remember those two sands because that's what the terms are even on miscarriage of justice now there's been uh arguments in the criminal justice system courts that people have been found to be a miscarriage of justice aren't receiving compensation right So there's legal arguments there and again it's just been reconsidered again.

11:37So you can but it depends. It's not guaranteed. When you got put in prison those years ago, how angry were you knowing you're going, hold on a minute, I didn't do this. I've just been banged up for 20, I'm getting 20 years here. Really angry. I rebelled. Like I say, I like 18 moves here and there. Back into the unit, out the unit, back in the unit, out the unit. up until several years the longest period I spent in one prison was I think it was nine months is that the longest yeah six weeks four months why hitting people just hitting people screws normally okay but arseholes are screws not fucking decent ones yeah thank god but oh you know throwing their weight around and give me an example give me an example of a screw throwing their weight around and you getting cheesed off standing right on my face as I'm putting my tie on what are you doing watching you give us a break, Governor.

12:29I don't need this bollocks today. I'm going to court. All right? And I won't suffer it. That's all right. We like violence. Crash, good night. Well, just bang him out. Got him straight to sleep. Okay. I went to court once another time. I was in school and I don't want to say like, oh yeah, I'm banging people but I was a young kid. I looked like a little college boy and he got his great big lumps and there was, some prisons are built on violence. Yes. They run on violence. They wrap you up if you've done something wrong. If you haven't done something wrong, it's violence. There's no talking about it.

12:57So this screw threatened me. Got off the bus and I go, don't talk to me, you're a con. Just being polite. Double cuffed. Went through the day giving us loads of aggravation. Went to the toilet, sitting on the toilet, double cuffed. He's sitting opposite me, this screw. So I'm here to get you down the lane, we'll kill you. Take the cuffs off. We'll have a chat. I'll get back to the special security unit in Belmarsh. He's only came in the strip search room with me, this bleeding plonker. giving me grief took my socks off shown me the soles of your feet listen I'm a performing clown and I ain't suffering your shit so much longer again and then he went to sleep felt down the best punches honestly I've forever thrown wallop slid down snoring away and then things like that really yeah for no reason and then there was a screw called George Shipton you will see him George is a great guy great guy he's been on the podcast very funny George is brilliant.

13:55Yeah, brilliant. Yeah. Eight screws surrounded him. Yeah. Said you have to make a false statement against Kevin Lane. He said, I ain't doing it. Is that right? He said, he's been threatened all day long by him. I've told him to leave him alone. And he did it. And that's what happened as a result. So, yeah. Hot of a good fella. He's the first girl I met in a bit on my shunit. Yeah. Where is, what was the worst prison you've been to out of the lot you mentioned earlier? Different prisons for different reasons. I'd say White Moor for the abuse there. Everything's running on security. It's just locked down.

14:22It's just. Where's Whitemore in the country? Cambridge in March. Okay. Long Larton for the violence. Where's that? Eversham. Which is? Worcestershire. Worcestershire, okay. They had a metal shop there. What do you want to have a metal shop for making knives for? Great big bleeding light spikes. Mm. You know? But great for other areas, different prisons, different reasons. Yeah. Whitemore and I would say Long Larton. Franklin, excellent. Geordies are so laid back. Yeah. Great prison that was. I loved it up there. I like Whitehall for different reasons at different times. Different prisoners. Old school.

15:01You come into prison, you get welcomed. Welcome for the right reasons. What do you need? What can we get you? Oh yeah, cook you a nice meal. Looking after each other. You go into prison now, what can we get off you? What can we make you do? It's just gone to shock. What is the difference when you were there for that 20 years and you come out in 2015 and then you've gone back, what, three times since then on recall? Yeah. Three different occasions. The last occasion you were in there, how long were you in there for? 14 and a half months. 14 and a half months. What was that 14 and a half months like, the difference between what it was like from 2015 to 2024?

15:43It was in a period of transformation then, and it's changing rapidly all the time. Age, crimes, people are coming in now for robbing each other all the time, robbing people for their drugs outside. There's not much, there's a lot of drug crimes in there. However, you don't see the old school criminal who put a bit of thought into a bit of work like the Hatton Garden burglary or such. I'm not glamorising it, but they used to go to work and there was a set of principles, leave the women and the children alone. Now it's rob, steal, smash and grabs. Smash and grabs have gone through the roof. the type of crime, for instance, has changed.

16:24And the people. Now you've got young African, Afro-Caribbean young kids, massive influx of them, the kids coming in, unfortunately. Yeah. And the knives, the weapons. Do you know what I see? I didn't see, but there was a drone came into a prison. And you might have seen it on the news, for instance, high-security prisons, lots of prisons now, right across the board. Or people droning, dropping drugs off and droning off again. Not just drugs. One of the prisons I was in had 20 knives delivered by drones at the cost of 2 ,000 pounds. Nine of them were flick knives. What do you want bleeding knives?

17:00You can make a knife in prison, but they tend to, you know, the power. And that's because of the gang warfares. Yeah. That's frightening, isn't it? Yeah. And the only young boys getting these, young lads coming in and getting these. So it's protection.

17:13Kevin Lane: They want it for protection because of the problems they're having with other people in their prisons. So a lot of gangs. I was down with the healthcare in one of the prisons and this kid's looking at the door looking at the door and I was down there with a pal of mine called Slim and he's going what's what you keep looking at the door for mate and I said he's looking at the door because he's got problems with whoever's coming through it and he's sitting in the healthcare waiting to the doctor just watching that door in case someone comes through and it's off straight away I didn't you know when I first went away in 2015 sorry 1995 you didn't have none of that yeah Black, white, you was friendly.

17:49You was one. You was a family. Yeah. Not no more. I want to go back to 2015. You got let out after all those years. Yeah. That feeling must have been beautiful. How long were you out for before you got your first recall? Four and a half years. Okay. And what did you get that first recall for? So I went away for common assault, which I did. I lost control of my emotions after nine and a half hours of provocation. vacation i was inside my car outside my girlfriend's house she had had a drink uh and rather than sitting there i sat in my car because it was abusive in the terms that she was swear you know it's argument she's had a drink yeah through that the car was smashed to bits by her whilst i'm sitting in it scratched and kicked ripped my number plates off i've put her in doors a few times this is all on camera i've got it on cd yeah from the police evidence yeah 6 30 the next morning i find my keys in the freezer wallet and such and i get them to i'm able to leave yeah so i was going in the house when i thought she was asleep get it and then found them as i'm driving off i see her again walking in the high street drunk so i've reversed the car back up with no number plates on smashed and scratched the bits nice new car nice range over sport autobiography beautiful, fully loaded.

19:09As I walked up to her, she's gone, I'm not going to say what happened, I don't know, it's in bad mouth for now, but I've grabbed her and went, oh, F off! And I threw her! And as a result of that, I lost control of my emotions. The prison said, straight back to prison. Two month sentence, I did 14 and a half months during COVID. So they pulled you in for two months, but they kept you in there for 14? Because of COVID, the course was shut and couldn't get me back in for parole boards weren't working or nothing. 40 and a half months getting COVID. So you've done 20 years, you've been out for four and a half, then you're back in for another 14 months.

19:44You didn't know how long that was going to last for. No. It's unknown. And the fact is, if I'd have been a lifer, I would have gone to prison. But because I'm a lifer, you've got to be in control of your emotions. Not the fact that you're sitting in a car where your car's getting smashed up. Yeah. You've had to put this person back indoors on a number of occasions just by putting your arms around her, carrying her in, holding the door shut, getting back in your car. Yeah. and that was clearly visible on the evidence but as a lifer forget all of that you lost control of your emotions you threw her she could have landed on her head broke her neck banged her head whatever yeah go to prison straight back in get her back and do some courses so you did 14 months then yeah how long were you out for the next time six weeks recalled again for falsely reporting the the a number of approaching officers were reporting on me and again I've got to be careful because I've got sort of like gagging orders on me now okay um we say that the tag was reported that I was in areas that I wasn't yes um that took four months to release me I had received compensation for that I was out then um two and a half years we called again for some allegations that were made i was recalled on uh was it the third one third one my probation officer was aware of these allegations and there was a problem yeah i went to another area uh police took me into a police station and i was recalled on a saturday evening by another probation officer doesn't know anything about me based on common assault and i spent 14 and a half months in for that one and released again.

21:30Tell you what, one of the hardest pieces of time I've ever done. What, the last 14 months? The recalls. Was it? You're sitting there thinking, what is going on here? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I'm a lifer, you've got to go in there. I'm hoping the system's going to change now where you go back into front of a stipendary or a panel of judges, I believe it has done. Are you done with going back to prison? Cool. I'll get home on. i don't i don't go places where i think there might be trouble yeah i avoid certain places i even people contact me now i say if you're in prison don't contact me yeah i'm not allowed to by my license conditions um so i try to live a law-abiding life as best i can because i can trust myself you can't trust other people so i'm done with prison yeah but whether or not prisoners, done with me.

22:20Yeah. Well, let's hope so. Pleading, hope so. Yeah, yeah. God, I'm not getting any younger. And they're shitholes. They're overstretched with prisoners, underpopulated. Staff, you know, excuse me, are facing a very difficult job because of the situations of what they're dealing with now. Not dealing with, like, when I first went away, there was a working relationship if we weren't happy we wouldn't bang up none of us we'd all stay together now there's no unity in there and there's no negotiation it's just so now you've left now you're out of prison now you've got a tag on you how long does that tag last for?

23:02this is a six month tag so it's a six month tag so they're clocking everywhere you are for six months what are the rules for you? have you got to go back and check in at certain days and certain times what are you allowed to do and what are you not allowed to do? I can go anywhere I want but even though the tag tells me what I've got to do I do a diary to say where I'm going to be, where I'm going to be staying. All of this tells them that. I'm not allowed to lay down on my back and put my legs up like that or like that.

23:33I don't know why. I wouldn't want to have my legs like that on my back. So now I can pretty much do what I want. I just have to get permission. and although the tag tells them I would notify them. Yeah. And what's that feeling like being restricted like that? Are you allowed to travel abroad? I have been abroad many times for work, but not for holidays. I was just about to start being allowed to do that when I got recalled this last time. And I've been told I've got to wait a little while before I can go back to work abroad again. And I get lots of inquiries for work abroad. And there's genuine inquiries.

24:13I video and photograph where I am. when I'm at various places and who I'm with. So it's not as if it's like a get-up. And I actually enjoy it. It's almost like a holiday, even though it's a work-on holiday. Bustman's holiday. Tell me about the clip that went viral a couple of weeks ago with Fosh, with your hooch drink. And you've got one here, right? Cheeky little bouquet. So Max Fosh, YouTuber, he came to me and said, I want you to make some hooch, show me how to make it. So I went to his apartment, showed him how to make it. But it didn't work out quite right for him. So they came back and said, we need some of your stuff that you've got here now that you've made.

24:59Christian Hazel actually made it for me under my guidance. Exactly how I make it. Exactly. And I couldn't make it any better. So this is the drink you make in prison? Yeah. Not trying for a sock, though. So how would you make it? so i do i can't want to give those so demerara sugar i used to use because you didn't have bleaching agent in it and pure juices so that's a cherry brandy yeah i'd make it with pear orange i made grapefruit runs i've made champagne one so this one here is 18.5 percent max foch put my one of my uh he put the orange juice one in front of tom gilby uh hannah cosby and jessica someone from a breakfast TV show.

25:41They slopped it in amongst five other wines that were bought off the shelf. And I gave it to them in their rawest form in that it was racked off once, strained, sat and then poured into another bottle. So it still had a bit of sediment in it. One of the critics said, oh, it's still in its rawest form. It's low intervention, meaning it could have had a bit more done to it. But Hannah Cosby from The Guardian rated it the best out of the six. Did she? There we go. I've heard good things. This one here. What's this one? This is cherry brandy. Yeah. And you taste it. You know what I mean? The cherry brandy a lot is used to get.

26:18So it's a bit different to Alka Pot Hooch. This is, it's got a wine that we taste like a red wine. Some people say cider. Warms your throat as you go down. Goose pimply. But it's a pleasure to drink. It's refreshing like a gin and tonic. I'm going to probably go into manufacture on my own, I think. The amount of requests I'm getting. Quite a few breweries have had a look at it. I went to see Windsor and Eton Brewery the other day, sat down with John, and he's tested it, going to put it down, come straight back up with it again. Gone like that, put it down, picked the other one up. He said, Kevin, if I didn't have a busy day today, I'll be down on it and going and drinking both of those bottles.

27:00That's the response I'm getting. And it's not just from one, oh, I don't like that. really across the board. I had a wine taster come to my house about two months ago. No, not even that. Five weeks ago. He arrived at three o 'clock. He left at nine o 'clock that night, legless. And he came to test my drink and he took two bottles with him. I had a producer from White City come and pick up six bottles the other week. So it's the best effing drink I've had in months. That's what I'm getting. I'm looking forward to trying it, giving it a go. So that's Max Fosher. What brand have you called it? I'm going to call it Cheeky Chappies Cheeky Ladies.

27:32And it's going to be in a Bugsy Malone brand where you see the old school suits and my name is Tallulah. So everyone's been a bit cheeky, didn't they? Cheeky lady, cheeky chappy. And I'm probably going to, I could say, produce it myself. I'll get 3 ,000 litres made and do it on Shopify. And I was going into loads of pubs and clubs, Ibiza, Tenerife in this country. I was waiting to strike a deal of a brewery, but it's a little bit slow. They don't act as quick as I want to act. Do you think the breweries would be put off at all by your reputation, even though you've got an amazing drink with an amazing brand, or do you think that would be okay with your reputation?

28:12I'm a brand, aren't I now? Yeah, that's my point. Would a brewery go, do you know what, yeah, we'll back this 100 %? Or would you be happy for them to take your ingredients to make this perfect drink and let them have it? I wouldn't mind, but the fact is I'm the brand. Yes. The hooch comes from me being a brewery in prison for years. I'm known for it. I used to have parties and invite people to my parties. I don't think it'd be a very good business move not to have me as a brand moving it. I mean, Max Fosch, he's had 2 million views. Amazing. 2 million. On my platform alone, just from the clips I've shown, millions of views.

28:48What does that tell you? So do you want to tap into a market or do you want to start a new market? Yeah. I think it's a huge opportunity. I'm looking forward to trialling that one. What's the one he was trying the other day? He was trying it. It was orange and it was like, mate, it tastes like champagne. That is it. Is that the rum was there? Yeah. And it pops like champagne. And that bottle there, it would pop. Where did you get the idea from? Well, I went away and I had Marmite alcohol in Reading Prison. I was doing a remand time for a kidnapping years ago. And then... Hold on, hold on, hold on.

29:19You're doing time for kidnapping. Tell me about the kidnapping. I got remanded for... I did a restorative justice with Will. And I've done some podcasts with him. I kidnapped a kid who was meant to have threatened a girl and a baby with a knife and said, I'll cut you, I'll cut the baby. So I took him away and kidnapped him. It wasn't him, it was his fellow he was working with. However, he was put forward as the person that did that. So it was a wrong kidnap, it was the wrong bloke, was it? Wrong bloke in terms of who actually did it. Even the police thought he'd done it and he was put forward as doing it by people in the area and his work colleagues.

29:55as a ruse really it was just a bum steer yeah so yeah the wrong person so tell me when you're going on when you're going on and going kidnap son what did you do that day i waited for him at his work premises kept people at the premises in there uh until he turned up when he turned up i took him away i did some terrible things to him at that time and it wasn't that you had to get in a mental state for that i just see him as a knife and a baby and a girl and then um he spent a week in hospital i don't think he even knew his name for about the first five days and they found a bit a phone number in a fag packet had been wrapped up uh and then they found that number and it came about that it was his family said yeah he's been missing he was in hospital so it's terrible through that though there came restorative justice which i thoroughly recommend that everyone does if they can do it in the situations right.

30:54More powerful than a nodding dog doing the course. When you're sitting in front of someone, when you listen to the trauma of what you've done to that person, how it changed their lives. Very powerful. It changes you as a person, and if it doesn't, then there's maybe something wrong with you, or at the time of that, you ain't in the right place to do it. So you've sat in front of him post his traumatic experience, and he's read out exactly what went on. God, it was reliving it for him. Terrible. Did you completely lose your head? Or was this all calculated and under control of you? Yeah, I think I got angry at times.

31:32In that, I just kept thinking,

31:33Kevin Lane: you've put a knife to a baby. Yeah. And it actually wasn't a baby. It was the lady's, she was pregnant. She put it to her beddy. And again, I thought that was terrible. So it was more case of that. How dare you do that? is he still about today yeah i see him you've seen him yeah i see him he messages me i message him i go to where he lives i met him a little while ago we had a pint um yeah yeah i'll see him we've become friends okay so i play to him if he's uh let that go emotionally and gone you know what it was what it was he don't stop ripping the arse out of me yeah how things have changed in terms of like we have a laugh yeah and he actually says he can understand why i've done it oh he said that has he admitted that has he yeah he's done it on camera and he says well you know i understand why he did it just got the wrong person and he was i was the person that was put up for it by everybody in the area so wrong person in terms of that um but he can understand it yeah it's a massive transformation he's now he's an ambassador for restorative justice and another other charity he does so some good's come from something so terrible that I did how long was that ideal for him oh god I had him for a while picked up early in the evening in Reading drove him to Derek's area kept him for a while to make sure I took some addresses off of him to make sure that he'd realized that I had connections to go and saw if things didn't go right or if he did something he shouldn't have done then drove him to london and the canal you're talking a good four hours i suppose to be in someone's custody how did he get found bobbing about in a canal he pulled himself out and someone seen uh something to do walking their dog and then his legs were fractured and things so uh yeah it was i think it was a house nearby and he ended up going into and the police were called He was soaking well, obviously, from the canal.

33:39I threw him in the canal just to say, well, that'll wake you up. That'll shock you, cold water. And you've got to get home to Reading and all. It wasn't done for the sense of trying to kill him. Yeah. It's more inconvenience. And no one wants to be soaking wet front of the canal. At that time, I wasn't really thinking for the consequences of what I'd done in that. I was throwing him in and he could have drowned. Yeah. How long was it before the old bill came knocking on your door? oh cut him up six weeks one of the fellas that uh who's involved in it and he came about because the he had 200 000 pounds worth of equipment stole this gentleman did who's a company i was connected to they went to the police the police didn't have enough evidence the fellas that nicked it then come to the offices shut the doors trying to get in the girl that had informed her that's why she was threatened because she used to be nicking all your kit and then that's when they came to me and said look they're banging on the doors they've tried to get in we've been to the police they've been back again can you come and sort it out did you get paid for that job no no I have never been paid for any for anything no it's always been like they've done what yeah what what principle yeah I can sort out help yeah that comes from me being a child and when my brother had problems as a young kid yeah so so is it animalistic or is it nature and nurture same or different jokey i suppose is it because you're a psychopath or is it a life you've lived nature and nurture but animalistic means that in terms of i walked around the corner of the infants i was in the infants and my brother was having some problems with his mates and they were two years older than me they were bullying my brother he had to wear a crash helmet at the school she had plates in his head for he got run over and i just sat about two of them yeah i was two years younger than the infants yeah but that's animalistic you're protecting the people you love yeah you go into prison they see it as you've got problems well no actually i'm just doing what's natural so it comes from it's a hand if you look at ella mccrystal she's a psychotherapist and she says to me kevin it comes from your parents and your grad parents you are in your genes you are who you are your parents.

35:56You're a parent. And you're also, if they've got a protective nature about them and you care about people, you will have it. That's your nature. You're protective. Not that you're doing it because you thrive on it. It's in your nature. And then because you're getting the happy hormone from doing something that's good in terms of protecting your brother and then people see you as a protective factor, you will be tuned in to more to that and go forward thinking it's right because it's in part of your nature but also maybe because you've been made to feel good for doing something bad, but people deem it as good because it's...

36:31Do you understand what I mean there? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's a very tricky edge. Have you ever been tested for being a psychopath? Yeah. Whereabouts? Only in prisons by the psychologists. Yeah. All right. What came out the other end? Shit. Said nothing. Nothing wrong with him. You get a psychologist turn around in prison and say, bad you get a psychologist outside is fine for your release you'll say you're good yeah that is what you're you're dealing with i went and had therapy for two years when i came home from prison and i didn't tell the therapist a well-respected therapist in this country and i paid for it private out of my own money and he said to me i'd never known you've been in prison if you hadn't told me kevin yeah he said honestly he said i can't believe it but i like from that i like to have the therapy but i believe it's really good to sit and discuss things that are going on in your head and what i was quite amazed with is how it can come back and you can look at something in a different perspective you're heavily entrenched with your views or your thoughts uh and and so i like therapy i bet you do let's go on to ellen mccrystal did you enjoy that therapy

37:44when you got a pretty girl sitting opposite you yeah who's very clever yeah sitting there in denim hot pants and stockings and a right salt yeah it's just it's a good interview anyway uh but she's the one that told me about the animalistics stuff so i've thoroughly enjoyed the interview with her uh and i'll do another one i think because it was good learning for me yeah ella's a great girl she tested that she did a uh a clip about it what the drink the hooch the drink yeah she had it so yeah it's i fully enjoyed it what did you get that feeling when you were after you'd done that kidnapping and you were did you feel like you were on the run for six weeks you were you just getting your head low no camera's normal done it that's it Why did it take so long for them to come and give you the tug?

38:41By the time they got the names of their investigation, it took a little while, and they arrested some people, and then from arresting them, they then came to me. The fellow that had the gear nicked from his business, he's meant to have informed on someone, and then they're meant to have done the same. When the police took Will away, that's the gentleman I kidnapped, that. They said, you think that's bad, we can kill you and get rid of you. They kept him in the cells. Proper give it to him. Give him our time. They gave him our time? Real our time. Why? They even thought he did it. Where's the money from the stuff you nicked?

39:21Proper give it to him. And Will says that on the podcast. Yeah. So who's the guy who you were meant to get then? Is that Will's mate? It's his work colleague. And that was part of a football game. Yeah. as well which one Redding yeah I never got him and I never went back afterwards because I didn't find out until years later it weren't him yeah what did you get for that I had a hung jury in the first jury and then I went back again the jury was out the judge told me he was putting him into a hotel at least you understand why I'm telling you this now it was i was in oxford crown court it was baking like it is now and the air conditioning was off so it was very hot in now yeah it was broken the air conditioning they came back in on a friday and then the judge put him into a hotel on a thursday so first friday they came back in some of the people still had the same clothes on he told him he's putting him into a hotel again they went back out half hour later came back in uh asked the judge a couple of questions went out come back in and he said they made their decision guilty gone out and come back in again very short period of time after told the judge they made the wrong decision judge said i've got to take your first answer i said it's not a game show you honor honestly i've got two years for that four sets of two to run concurrently uh and he said i took the law into my own hands as a vigilante and what the Judged.

40:54Judged, yeah. And I went straight to Reading Prison for that, which was, again, that was my first time in prison. So that was before the contract came in? Yeah, yeah. Wow. I was put into prison on remand into Reading Prison for six months and got bail. The police were caught outlining that they changed some statements from the witnesses where they said, it looks like him, but it's not him. And the chief inspector put, it looks like him. Yes, it's him. And my lawyer said, I never said that. so again I got bailed from that then my funny thing is with this my best mate Marcus Lemaitre he got licked on it and he's a right case he went to private school really well educated he's a rough diamond he got bailed because they questioned the identity anyway when I'm sitting I was sitting in Remanda this time in the magistrate's court he had what's called a 6-1 committal he's come walking through the door he's got a black and white stripy t-shirt and a pair of white trousers like the uh the old burglary remember that he got these white trousers on and his black and white shirt and i burst out laughing because he don't dress like that right the next day he's coming just like mr t he's got rings on everything there's gold chains around here bracelets everything leather jacket all the rest of it i'm crying again the third day come and dress like a casual his headdress but everyone's looking at the door now when he comes in all right and the judge says we can't say that mr lemare looks like the suspects and he thanked him for keeping us entertained but I remember I was crying with laughter when he'd come in and think oh my god and he's sitting there like that whole straight face because the big sentence we was looking to get so he got a knock gear I was the only one sitting in the dock what did you get?

42:39I got two years you got two and you did what a year? I did 14 and a half months ok 15 and a half months I got two weeks before I got 15 and a half months I want to know do you know when you went in 95 and you come out in 2015 then you've done 20 years. Your original sentence was how long? 18. 18. How can we done two more? Then how can we done 20 instead of doing half of the 18? That's standard. People go over their terrace. Not many people go home on their terrace. If you've got a recommendation, it's that you will serve that sentence and then we will look to send you home. You don't go home on your recommendation.

43:11So think if you're an 18, but you think in your mind, well, I'll do nine and I'm out. No, I thought I've got to do the 18. You have to serve every day that, as you said, you will serve. to rehabilitate yourself. We can't release you into society in case you're still a danger. What on earth goes through your head when you know you've gone behind bars for 18 years knowing you're sat in a cell every single day?

43:37Will I make it out? What am I going to be like when I get out? What's society going to be like? Who's going to be around me? Who's going to have died and not been around me but be around anymore? Getting on with your life, starting again because you start again you've had years to get to a point where you've got a house you've got a home you've got uh belonging money yeah yeah all starts again unless you've been at it whilst you've been away ducking and diving which i i weren't i came home to what people gave me and a small amount of money that was left yeah over 20 years i expected to do longer and i remember that a screw come to me he said i don't know what you've done he said but on your record it's written you're not going to be released you're very old or dead so i'm going home now and that was as a result of when this paperwork came to light and the prison director at danny mccallister was waiting outside my cell at that time he said kevin i've just come to tell you i've put something in place in relational category a i thought i thought i was going back up the ladder because they're saying you've manipulated getting police files from the police stations whilst they were in prison.

44:44That's a security breach. But no, they downgraded me and I was chucked out of the system. Great, I couldn't believe it. So how many years were you as a Cat A? 16. As a Cat A. I was high risk for 10. What's the difference between high risk, Cat A? What's below Cat A? Single A. Single A and then B, C, D. 60, yeah. What's the difference between a Cat A and a B inside the prison? You're moved. How you're moved. When you're moved, it's recorded on a book, cut A book. So an officer will sign that book. You've been moved with a dog, an Alsatian outside. High risk, you've got to move cells every two weeks.

45:29Triple category, you're kept in the units. And you've got to move every two weeks. You're checked every 20 minutes when you're AAA. 24 hours a day. I was always looking over my shoulder because I remember staff come and check me. That's all through the night, all through the day, consistently. Again, your visits, who can visit you. Your visits have got to be cleared by the police. What prisons you can go to, what prisons you can't. You're a danger to society. You have access to guns and the means to people to break you out. So that's why they keep you in a prison, within a prison, and how they move you.

46:06Your security searches regularly, consistently, you get two major dedicated search teams every single month and you will have to move cell and they will pack your kit that you've got and they will put that in a cell and then you'll go into that cell and unpack your kit in the two weeks time you'd have the same for what reason security in case you're up to something purely in case you're up to something look plot plotting an escape have you ever thought about escaping yeah only once because i see uh i knew it'd be it wouldn't be worth it to me in that I've got a family say my kids are real and they needed a transfusion or something to do with me then I would have to be there so I would never thought about escaping in terms of making a go of it I did however see an escape route in a prison I was in once um and I thought blimey they've not noticed that if I was an escapee that's the way I would do it and I never did right uh and I was prepared to do every single day until I beat my case and went home the right way so I could continue with my life and that's what I've done.

47:10Have you seen some serious acts of violence with things that have been made by people from toothbrushes or da da da da da? What things have you seen? What sort of knives have you seen been made? A spike. Yeah, the spike. Explain me that. That was made in the Long Larton workshop and that was going to be stuck through somebody. Someone was going to stab another inmate right through. And what does that look like? Jagged teeth on it. Handle wrapped up. Tape put around the handle. A bit of metal that was put around it for grip. The fellow was going to stab someone. I took it off and put it in the bin.

47:52Pulled it out of his, down his leg. So I'm going to stab him blah blah blah. Fuck's sake, give us a ear. And what about showering and stuff? Is that the weak point where every time you haven't showered, there's a weak point here? Keep your wits about you. Someone was in the showers in a prison and it was videoed. Some people put it out there. And this fellow was asleep on the floor and they were just rolling them over and slashing him whilst he was asleep, cutting his face up. Didn't have that problem when I first went away. Yeah, okay. um it's such a different atmosphere now yeah you go in the shower your watch is coming through the door people get attacked in the showers a lot now yeah it's a different ballgame more like america yeah yeah yeah what about female prison officers love them it's not just the staff you've got psychologists you've got nurses yeah um governors governors coming in from university, girls that you think, what are you doing walking these landings?

48:58Yeah. Real pretty ladies. Real pretty ladies. So they say women bring in a common influence to the wing or the prison or the system. Well, it does. In many senses, men are, they're horny little bastards and they're in prison, they're starved of love and affection. And the next thing, you've got women walking around who are sexy and pretty. So it does deflect what people might be thinking of in terms of the anger and realm of each other. It brings a bit more love into the frame. Yeah. Prison women, again, if they do it right, they can be quite calming. Yeah. But you get the wrong woman, and it can be quite rude sometimes.

49:39I've seen some women, one woman in a certain prison, she'd had buckets of shit thrown over her three times. What does that say about that woman? Is it the cons or is it her? Yeah, and she went home, got changed, come straight back to work. on the landing. Yeah, that one had a bit of a hard neck. I do think women are good for the system. They bring a softer nature. And I have seen some nice working ones. Drugs. Tell me about drugs in the prison. Is it rife right now the last time you were back there? Spice is still very bad in there. And they're boiling now, getting paper. So you get cleaning chemicals.

50:20And what they're doing, the, boiling the cleaning chemicals over some paper and then they're smoking the paper. Bleach and stuff like that. I mean, Gordon Bennett. Oh, God. You've got the spice, which is epidemic in the prison system now. There's a couple of hundred plus deaths a year through the spice. What does spice look like? Well, it comes on paper now. Are they smoking it? It comes on paper. Okay. What are they doing? They're taking it? They're smoking it? They smoke it. They put it in their vapes and things like that. I don't know. I've never taken it. No. But I see, I see spice. You know, you see like on the documentary stuff in San Francisco and everyone's bent over like 90 degrees walking around and just, is that the same in the prisons?

50:58Yeah. Foaming it in the mouth, having convulsions and fits. Anybody that takes that stuff, they need to realize that it's a very dangerous substance. Michael Held introduced drug testing. And when he introduced drug testing, people put down their cannabis and went to heroin and other subjects, other substances. Is that because it's out of the system quicker? Yeah. And what's counting? It's 30 days. 28 days, 14 days. If you're training every day and sweating and drinking loads of water, it might get your system quicker, but predominantly not. Right. So. I wonder if that's a positive or not, or a negative, bringing in the drug testing.

51:35Negative. It's ruined the system. Because by bringing that drug testing, people flip from that to that because it's out the system quicker. Yeah, it's ruined the system, the drug testing. It doesn't keep, people still will take drugs. Yeah. And they will get on a drug that's out of their system quicker, but then they'll be stuck on it. Whereas a bit of cannabis, it's legal in this country now, isn't it? So by bringing in that rule, they've brought in a rule that you can smoke it outside by laws passed in this country. If they'd had more cannabis on the landings now and not the spice, you wouldn't have half the trouble.

52:07People deserving a puff, they're happy-go-lucky, they're not staying up all night or monged out or having the fits. Yeah, it's ruined the system, drug testing. might have been a good idea in some senses, but it was a bad decision. Could look where they are now. What would you do if you were in charge of the prison system today? I would train people to do jobs that we need in this country, the building jobs, making doors, furniture for the six million homes we've got. I wouldn't have them packing nails and screws in packets. I would make people learn to read and write for their parole. If you're on a parole, you're going to read the basic Janet and John books, as we will recall, and you can understand what you're reading and you can sign your name and write a short sentence.

52:52Instead of some courses, you will learn a certain degree of maths and English. The average reading age in prison is seven. Is that right? Seven. Or take away TVs or I'd give it... I say this a lot, I'm a prisoner, but you need to understand when you're sitting there clicking, that's bad for the brain. I think that you should have limited TV instead of sitting up till two, three o 'clock in the morning watching TV, not getting up to go to work in the morning, getting a nick in, it spirals out of control. I'd isolate the terrorists, put them in prisons on their own so you haven't got that conflict no more, converting misfits and wannabes, then going out and committing more crimes in prison and coming outside and continuing that.

53:34That has caused a massive disruption in the system and in society. You definitely need to give people hope, whereas you say I'll tell you what you can have conjugal visits at a certain grade you can see your family you can have the one mother and she'll stay with you and she gets pregnant but she's still with you you'll go to work in a decent way so I'll make that door over there in a factory that's going to supply builders in this country through that I will get paid a certain wage where the government get a certain amount certain amount goes into an account for me and the rest of it goes to my wife or my girlfriend or my family so I will get up to go to work because I want that money because it's benefiting myself and my family not getting seven pound a week to work on a job all day long seven days in the survey boys get seven pounds sometimes a week seven days a week and it's a crap job for most of them you're not really promoting people going to work because you'll think you're being robbed anyway you're paying me peanuts so i'd give them better better work better education that is meaningful to them and stuff like that really and i would i would make if you've got a drug problem and you want to get off them you're going to go to a prison for people are all on drugs you can you can commit to that permanently closed visits for six months or strongly supervised visits where you will have someone sitting on your table with you who is watching you yeah are you saying that's a positive or not it's a positive if you've got that yeah Because you want to get off them and you've put yourself up for that.

55:03Yeah. And if you fall over, so to speak, don't send them back. It's part of the falling over process. But get them clean for long periods of time. Train them in a job, make them earn money, let that money go out. Don't put them in prisons where people are going to keep serving them up because they want their bloody money. Yeah. They want their families to be sending them stuff. So you're getting money. You're earning money in prison. Yeah? Yeah. Where are you going to spend that? In the canteen. In the canteen, okay. Okay. Can't end shop. We do it all by form now. Okay. Good example. Orange juice.

55:34Orange juice is£2.90 a carton now. What does that breed? So you've got to graft half a week serving up behind the counter to go and get that orange juice. And what are you going to do otherwise if you want coffee, washing powder, fruit, bananas, and a multitude of other things, toothpaste, all sorts of stuff. Yeah. What are you going to do? You get a bit of allowance that you can spend from, you get like two accounts. One where people send money in. that gets transferred into what's called a spending account with your wages. If you're enhanced, you get a certain amount. If you're medium, standard or basic, basic is the lowest you can get.

56:08So you get different amounts per level. Again, that affects it. So if you've been dropped down to basic because you've told a screw to F off or you've been caught drinking or whatever. So they can do that, Ken, as a punishment, like bring them down to basic? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, you go from enhanced to basic if you get caught off a phone, but that's not the reason. You haven't been found guilty yet. and it's a drastic drop down. It's got to be in front of a governor. You get staff on the lands that go basic straight away and you go, hold on a minute. Right, okay. And how long have they asked for?

56:3628 days, two months sometimes and you're on basic wages and then you've got to choose between putting money on the phone. Some prisoners are allowed to put money on the phone from this account but it all changes. Yeah. So, that causes contrabanding in many forms. So, the system needs to be looked at far better than it is. How many of the prison guards or what percentage of prison guards can you always bung to bring something in? Is it quite an easy thing to do? Some prisons it's epidemic. Is it? And of course the prison service reports on that. I have never done that. I've never had it. I've never done it.

57:14I've never had a mobile phone in prison. Never. But it seems to be the case. The lower grade you go. i'm not i'm not going to get into that because i'm i'm restricted but um look at the figures online yeah isn't it something like 80 percent of the prisoners now grew up without a fatherly figure yeah so by having people if you look at if you was having conjugal visits with your girlfriend and you're keeping the same father then in some prisons abroad they're into like little bungalows and they stay the whole weekend with their daddy and they have barbecues and that so it keeps the family bond yeah daddy's still got a lot to say about what you're doing and what you're not doing yeah you need that guidance you need someone to look up to who's your hero yeah otherwise who's your who's your hero after that if you don't have your dad yeah right yeah local the local villain on the street yeah crime don't pay but they think it does yeah and that's not good do you think what i'd love to know what your thoughts are the percentage of people who go in for being active come straight out and carry on again oh bloody hell you think they're straight back in a lot of the kids they're not out i've seen people go out in the back in the next day yeah okay how bad is that yeah and why is that it's because they've got to go out and get money whereas germany norway and all these other countries already put money away for you they go home when i was away for the kidnapping there was a fellow in there from germany he went home to four thousand pounds when he was in germany yeah he was working that allowed him to get a flat a car and you had money in this pocket we released people with 80 odd quid put them on universal credits you don't get that for a month or two so so will you when you were released a couple of months ago you've come out you've got have you got to tell them how much you're earning how you're earning it what you're doing have you got to let know everything bank account details what do you show them that the whole time got they can go straight away they can tap into that yeah card bank so i had a call the other day from a solicitor going through the amounts of money going into my account where's that from where's that from where's that from who sent you that why did you send you that no problem i can account for all of it innocently when i first came home i was getting you know money people from people people looking after you looking after you you know i'd get a car i don't insurance from the car of course that isn't cheap nowadays is it yeah right down to I mean, just living.

59:43Yeah. Food. Yeah. Just living, you know, getting them out. Petrol. Just, I mean, so many bills. You've got to put getting your phone glass replaced on your phone. Yeah. You know, walking in and paying attention to have a cover put on it. Yeah. Just silly things. What faces have you seen in prison over the years that people know about? I've seen everyone that you see in the papers. Like? The Essex Boys. again i haven't got permission to name these people but people or anyone you've read about yeah from 2000 1995 to 2025 they've been in well 2015 the most notorious cases i've i've no met lived with example

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1:01:09I'm not allowed to name prisoners okay I'm not allowed to name prisoners you name the cases like you said the Essex boys or the Hatton Garden and Hatton Garden the the old boys that burgled the diamond centers I was asked to go on that where are you I was asked to go on it to break in to get the boxes open because I was obviously pretty fit and strong at the time and I said no I'm going have you seen have you seen the film on that I've never watched it have you not only because one of the fellas in it I'm really close with okay and that respect for it in that film don't portray the real men and stuff like that they've got some of the stuff but wasn't there five men or six men one of them got away one still not no they've got him they got him have they yeah yeah got him he's away now you know I'd see him when I was away didn't have ever had a phone didn't have nothing old school stayed away from all of that yeah what made you turn that job down i'd fought so long to get out to be with my family yeah hence why my life when i came home was so straight in that i'm not going back to prison so when i got recalled it was devastating and i'm a good earned money earner yeah i get money i go to work i'll get a few quid i'm always looking at something yeah go after you know as we speak now i've got the wine hopefully going into production and other things going on.

1:02:24Well, that could be life-changing worldwide for myself and many other people. I would employ prisoners a lot of the time, not predominantly prisoners, but I'd say, right, come with me. Have you spoken to Timson? No, I haven't. No, my friend has. Why don't you speak to Timson? Will has, the fellow I kidnapped. Why don't you open that door to Timson? So, mate, this is what you set up. You're now the governor of the prison sector. Take a look at this. How can we turn this into a business? So Ian Randersloos, he was a governor of Highdown Prison. He's not there. He's a governor somewhere else now.

1:02:54He put me forward to be on a board. I was the only prisoner on this board of a Ministry of Justice panel of how to improve prison. On my last, not this call, he called the one before.

1:03:08I've just been approached by Trailblazer. It's a charity going into prisons, universities and schools to give them a different direction, different lead. So I'm looking, I am doing it, but in other ways. Yeah, okay. Timpson, maybe somewhere I'll go into, but at the minute I've got other avenues where I'm doing, I've been in Elstoke Prison a little while ago. I went and did a podcast with them. Yeah. Talking about prisons and how it should be run, I shouldn't. When you're in prison and you know someone's a terrorist, you know someone is killed, is a killer, is there certain codes in prison that if you know someone's killed kids or done something in an affiliate is that straight away are people who are on them or are they kept separate from everyone not no more integration is a big thing in prison now it's all due to a cost so you would have a job of going on to you'll be a peer member you'll be going on to other wings every wing to ask them about whatever it is you've got to see them about rather than having staff doing it then what happens is say they're coming in and you're meeting somebody you don't know what he's in for but you like his personality next thing you know he's done this he's done that but you like that person that's a bit hard to get I would never do that job but cons are doing that job and what it does is integration allowing you to meet people they've got a wing that I was on called community it's a community spur oh I lived on this spur and that was very difficult there were child killers on there piss I also got chased off of it when I moved on to that spur I wasn't told that I was told it's a new experimental wing and there was a fellow on there that was involved in doing some atrocious things that I knew of.

1:04:48Yeah. I love them like, God, what's going on here? I want to know why this baffles me. Why in prisons someone gets done for being a paedophile and they're out in two years? Someone gets caught with a load of gear and gets 15 years. And I get it. They're both wrong. But why is that such a small sentence when you're dealing with children? That, for me, just... It baffles a lot of people, doesn't it? Yeah. In Canada, the sentences are reversed. so if you're a non-robber you get less than a paedophile pretty much over here they have up the sentences over here now for paedophilia but you can get caught with 200 images of children and walk away really you should be going to prison no doubt Hugh Edwards who's the BBC there we go he's caught with all that what did he get he got nothing look at domestic violence just to hit me on this he got nothing he got suspended sentence yeah he got nothing and there's loads of them going like that Like, how on earth does an adult want to be putting all that on your, like...

1:05:49They should be putting... Bang. 20 years. Straight away. 100%. Done. Get in there. See you later. And not let out the reading door. Yeah. Why is it that we're releasing these people into society to destroy innocent lives? Children who are innocent, and they don't see no evil until people like that get hold of them. Have you heard of a woman called Maggie Oliver? Yeah, they've got three years, didn't she? No, no, no, no, no. Maggie Oliver's got a Maggie Oliver foundation. she's the one who's really open philosophy and is working on the grooming gangs up north wonderful woman she's been on like all this going on up north why is it all covered up why is everything in our country covered up when it's anything to do with kids under the age of 18 or 16 I'd love to know I just can't get my head around it it's such a common sense thing to open up and go bang Nick you 20 years you 20 years you 20 years how dare you do that you're talking about kids That's what winds me out.

1:06:44Would you say that there's a lot of public school boys and girls that have been subject to that, so then they've got... Become that. ...historic difficulties become that, or in positions of power? Yes. I wouldn't know that, but it's certainly something that should be considered. Yeah. However, we are definitely going down the wrong path in this country with the sentencing laws. they should be banging them up keeping them in not releasing them at the great pace of not so they do release them and when they come out they come out and change their name they're allowed to change their name oh it's disgraceful yeah the cop in my case corrupt police Spackman his name was he went up in front of the court when Panorama did the programme about my case called Last Chance for Justice Mark Daly and Louise Shortier the judge put a black order on it and he wasn't able to be named because he changed his life and got on with it.

1:07:46Yeah. And changed his life. Yeah. Unbelievable. What were your thoughts about blokes going into women's prisons? If I got a big sentence now, I'd get a pair of tits and get straight over there. You'd look good, mate. I look good. You can call me Kirsty. I'd get over there and I'd get me in the way. Well, I would. That's what I'd go over there for. I wouldn't take their bleeding tablets that they give you. I would, yeah, I'd take the tablets that they'd work in. I wouldn't be waking up in the morning with a stiffy. Well, I would be, wouldn't I, eh? Every morning, no problem. No one there next to me and I've got a stiffy.

1:08:22Kev, what's the future for you, mate? Now you're back out and you've got your drink and... I've got this... I'm really looking forward to doing the schools and the charities and the universities. My drink, I've written another book. Have you? Yeah. Bored. Life in My Lane. I haven't published that yet obviously during the process, I'm meeting a literary agent next week with Kimberly Chambers she's second in the country to Martina Cole Kimberly's great crack so I'm going to meet her agent films I've got an agent coming up I'm looking at another film, I was with someone yesterday who's going to talk to a really well known actor the film that was written about me, that's still on the shelf at the moment, I got recalled during it, there's some changes in it.

1:09:09Yeah. I don't know what's going to happen with that now because I wasn't quite happy with, not happy, but didn't agree with some other stuff in it. Not happy. I just thought it's not me. Yeah. So there's a lot on the get back seeing my family again. Lovely. Move. Lovely. I'm moving. I'm probably going to move up north. Are you? Somewhere. Yeah. Somewhere really rural. Yeah. I like the, I want to be away from people. In the best possible sense. I've lived in a house with hundreds of people. I don't want to have a neighbour next door to me no more. I'm going to get a wig where I'm going to live on top of a mountain.

1:09:46Kev, are you happy? I'm happy, yeah. I like to be a lot happier. But I'm happy. Even when you're struggling out here, I'm free. So I appreciate probably a lot more things than people don't. I go places, I go on the street and I'm forever getting stopped, photographs. conversations so I'm lucky good character that's why well I was talking to a gentleman out there who got me for a job and was laughing out there before I came in here he shook my hand he took a picture of me and he didn't even know who I was took a picture of the book actually but we were just chatting to him I like what you're here for I like engaging with people so I'm going to try and live my life as happy as I can one day at a time don't offend people I'm training the boxer at a minute Archie Wickham he goes under Millis he's got a bronze in the nationals I'm going to do a year with him and he's going to turn pro hopefully so maybe a bit of boxing and whatever else and what are you doing later today tonight down in Bournemouth I am going to go and meet a pal of mine called Peter Pan that's going to be quite robust I think it will be with those photos you showed me oh my god he's a live wire quality care thoroughly enjoyed this mate thank you very much Dodge really enjoyed it brilliant you're a good man yeah and you so it is and you Dodge and listen people out there crime don't pay it pays for some but 99 % of people go to prison for a long time go to work and enjoy your life and be free yeah wicked good man thank you very much cheers mate cheers hi guys I really hope you enjoyed that as much as I did can you do us a favour and leave us a review as it massively helps us grow the show cheers guys