#326. South London Graffiti Artist Spiralling Out of Control - Justin Rollins

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1:22So a graffiti crew is like a collective of kids writing up a signature. I mean, hitting kids around the head with bricks and stuff at 12 years old, being expelled from school, in and out of court and stuff. Savage weapon that started hitting other kids around the head with it. It was pure chaos. Everyone started running in different directions. I ran up, hearts absolutely pounding. Oh my God, I look and crazy Steve pulls out his weapon. He's laughing in hysterics. There were screws missing and the screws that remain had bits of human f***ing herring. All of my violent acts were out of fear. What did you used to carry around with you?

1:58If it came on top, you would look for the nearest weapon. I'm on a roof in Malden, heavily intoxicated, meat cleaver on my waistband for protection. So you're carrying a meat cleaver? Yeah. Either way, I'm going to kill someone, I'm going to be killed, or I'm going to get a life sentence. I fully deserved being chopped with a meat cleaver, and I fully deserved getting four and a half years in prison. I want to go back to your best mate Joe. How did he die? Joe was found in suspicious circumstances, yeah? He was found dead behind a parade of shots because he's very sensitive to the family, still to this day, 24 years, you know.

2:33Welcome to the Eventful Lives podcast. I'm your host, Dodge, and I'm the founder of Bournemouth 7s, the world's largest sport and music festival. On this podcast, I speak to proper characters of all lived eventful lives. Do us a favour and hit that follow button and be sure to check us out on YouTube, Instagram, facebook and tiktok at dodgewoodle we've now had over 100 million views justin welcome to the show mate thanks for having me dodge yeah looking forward to this mate the kids same let's roll the way back how did you end up becoming a south london gang leader well i became a gang leader it started off as a graffiti gang or graffiti crew so a graffiti crew is like a collective of kids writing up a signature so I became friends with a kid called Joe Smith his tag was bath we met a local train station I noticed ink stains on his hands paint stains on his clothes and I knew that he must do graffiti it's the telltale signs so I went up to him I said what do you write and he said bath and then I said ah my tag 706 and when you're a kid say i'm about 14 years old he's about 16 um writing your tag on the wall it's basically saying to the world look at me someone noticed me like lack of attention and affection you're getting at home so when you ask another graffiti tagger what do you write and then and then and then you say your tag you're literally scanning his face to see like does he recognize you you know does he know your tag are you writing your tag around enough so me and joe became friends my tag was the number 706 and um we started writing the graffiti crew wz which stood for warriors with a spell the z on the end um around the london bar of merton that was our graffiti crew now we're not in school um and the more we wrote wz around the london bar of merton and the more it was getting noticed other kids that were from dysfunctional families or expelled from school or just running out of school started to notice and started to join us so there starts to other kids start to join WZ so now it's gone from me and Joe to probably five six of us we're all spraying our tags around town WZ's getting sprayed everywhere then one day we get onto a bus in south london and buses back then we're talking late 90s were absolutely covered in yeah the red bus of yeah everywhere yeah they didn't clean them like like they do today so get onto the bus most buses had our tags on um get onto the bus absolutely battered i see my tag 706 says wz um and there's a line for it now writing a line through someone's tag that's like the form of disrespect so that's sort of like fighting talk I'm 14 years old not a fighter right next to it it said stop writing WZU Paki right all my friends start laughing because I've been called a Paki now I'm feeling this shame and embarrassment about my race and about the bullying that I went through in my earlier years with my mum being mixed English and Anglo-Indian and my dad being mixed Sri Lankan and Burmese but I was just raised by my mum's side and I always saw my mum as a white lady my nan's white all my cousins white English name I thought I was them until I thought I was white as a kid until another kid punched me in the nose popped my nose and called me a paki um so i'm ashamed that this other graffiti crew on the bus have lined my tag out and my friends that i'm seeing as like my brothers and family are laughing at me i'm not a fighter but i put a line back through the other gangs or graffiti crews name and their name was the initials wk they were unhappy that we're spraying wz around the london bar of merton and sutton and they're from the royal borough of Kingston they're from Cambridge Estate and WK stood for who cares or wanted criminals now they didn't like that our initials that was similar like the W and it was two just two um two letters so I've lined it back um my friends are all laughing I'm just basically showing off never had a fight in my life we're hanging around the streets of Maldon outside the station a crew called Shadow Crew come along one day group of hardened street kids I knew them I must have been in fear of them because when they're talking about their thereafter WK I start trying to impress them talking about I know where they hang around in New Maldon want to go down there never had a fight in my life just a few little fisty cuffs as a little kid anyway 14 years old shouting my mouth off trying to impress this other gang shadow crew I would say I feared and that's why I'm showing enough right i never thought that a fight was being talked about in the background and come friday 35 kids about 4 30 35 kids are coming to malden to hear about this crazy kid me and my street name was sevens at the time short for 706 that that this fight was actually going to escalate and this kid seven's going to go and get wk right so 4 30 there's these kids turning up in their school uniform you got shadow crew there you got kids from local estates and i must have been feeling very overwhelmed like oh my god a fight's gonna i was petrified right um and as wz was being sprayed up and more gang uh more tough kids were joining there was a kid called crazy steve he was about 12 years old yeah um he had grown up in a violent household his dad being a violent alcoholic abused him physically as a child and he was showing all the telltale signs of like a psychopath he he just he was extremely violent i mean hitting kids around the head with bricks and stuff at 12 years old being expelled from school in and out of court and stuff now the dad's heard about the fight and has built his son a weapon which was half a broomstick shaved down into a point the other end had screws and a Stanley knife blade coming out of it now it's 4 30 I'm already overwhelmed and now crazy Steve and his dad comes along his dad's basically waving him off while we're all jumping on the 93 bus going towards North Cheam to head down to New Maldon I must have been thinking I hope you know that you know like they're not going to be there or the 213 bus doesn't stop because buses were seeing all these kids and just going but eventually we're on the 213 we're going towards new malden 100 miles an hour get down the side of new malden alley it's overgrown it's um fly tipped waste and crap everywhere and then i'm still must have been thinking i'm scared about being punched in the face basically um and we walk down this alley and i'm hoping wk are not going to be there and um got all these kids behind me and then we come to a parting in a bush and there's about six or seven WK members sitting there and I knew some of them from doing graffiti and they looked they was all smoking on a bong so they're all stoned and there's all these kids there they must have been absolutely petrified and one of them said to me no sevens no I'm your friend and one of shadow crews shouted set it seven set it and you know as a 14 year old you don't have any assertive skills you're just you're just in the moment and I looked to the floor and I saw a piece of concrete and I picked up the concrete and I started to hit the other kid around the head with it and then all hell broke loose crazy Steve brought out his savage weapon and started hitting other kids around the head with it and the shadow crew pulled out knives started stabbing WK boys and we started everyone just it was pure chaos everyone started running in different directions I ran up which I didn't realize it was the embankment jumped over the big fence landed on new maldon platform train pulls up going towards waterloo i jump onto the train i hear a thump next to me i look it's crazy steve we're on the train the train's going towards wimbledon now heart's absolutely pounding oh my god i've just smacked a boy's head in with a piece of concrete i look and crazy steve pulls out his weapon he's laughing in hysterics and there were screws uh missing and the screws that remain there bits of human flesh and hair in and we jumped off at Wimbledon we got back to Maldon after about an hour and a half all of WZ and Shadow Crew are back in Maldon and the the strange thing that happened 14 years old and I've got these bigger kids 16 17 19 they're coming up to me they're patting me on the back they're spudding me they're shaking my hand and they're going yes sevens and they believed that I had set that they believed I had set that whole thing up that I had all I was this crazy kid that had organized this savage fight and then that was a day that i went from like this vulnerable bully child into a leader of wz which was originally a graffiti crew and then it turned into like a graffiti gang slash by really violent um street gang yeah that's how that's how it started what did you why did you want to take it to the next level with the violence with the violence that for me all of my violent acts were out of fear if i could be the most violent violent kid in malden in the london uh borough of merton in london borough of sutton then i'm protecting myself i'm protecting that inner child that's that's what it is um you're protecting yeah your inner child because not i'm a awkward vulnerable little boy that's had a horrific childhood like early childhood which at that age you don't know it you're just in it so to protect that inner child is to become the most violent person I could be and the most violent eventually the most violent young man one of the most violent young men in the community yeah what was it what was it that you wanted to take it to the next level though with that other lot from the Cambridge Cambridge estate by the way and Kingston's a tough tough estate what made you go right as us versus them what sort of levels did it get to um well i think to take it to the next level that that was that was pure peer pressure when i picked out that piece of concrete and then that setting that mindset just um okay it swept over our gang that you had to be the craziest kid to like stay to not be bullied and stay up in the pecking order and then just be more and more violent so you're using more and more weapons um and then they retaliated um or they were they tried to they tried to say that we wasn't there at the time but then we there were times they did get me because my cousin lived in maldon manor which was sort of in between worcester park and new maldon um and he was part of wz so i always had to watch my back as a child as a man now i think i'm not gonna go there but i think i'll just test my luck mate and um yeah and wk got me a couple of times around maldon manor got me on the floor spray paint come rolling out my pocket on my bag and they're beating me around the head with a spray can or um one time i had taken some ecstasy we was in sutton me and my cousin tony and um we only had enough money to get a cab to just pass worcester park yeah so we got dropped off there and we looked up at the um on the up the embankment of this railway bridge and wk were up there it's about two in the morning and it was like yeah i was just like handed to them on a plate and they absolutely kicked my head in but it was just literally tit for tat you know i mean i i deserved what was coming back to me it was just back and forth what was the what was the end game here though for you're there going right i want to tag everything up were you going into their manor you're going to kingston and tagging everything around there and putting lines for their stuff Was it like, I'm going into your manor to take the mickey out of you?

14:50Or are you waiting for them to come into your manor to put a tag through, a line through yours? It was, so we didn't just write in our own manors, yeah? So it'd be like, we're writing in London Borough of Merton, but we're also getting on the London Underground. We're going deeper into South London, or we're on the London Railway on a train track. But you've got more respect for painting the London Underground. and then back then it was the uh rusty old um northern line tubes and you had the tube depot on our doorstep um and when you spray those old tubes you use certain paint like plastico barbecue black and it would stain the tube so we're set we're spraying wz it's going all the way up to the other end of the northern line where kids up there like say meal hill and edge where it comes out again like and they were doing the same so wz was getting recognized up in north london and so like going into kingston it was very like touchy one time we tried to go onto the estate bad move yeah because you've got all these olders um tough men that have seen this group of graffiti kids they probably don't even know him was graffiti because they're just kids that they've seen grow up around and say we tried to go onto the estate soon got completely overwhelmed we're running back literally towards new malden go past the pub on the left hand side and i don't know if someone had called them and said wz coming that way but other geezers were coming out and then we're then we're in the back of someone's um garden and there's men that uh they're running down the road just estate men and they're ripping off um you know like for sale signs they could they're chasing us with for sale signs we're all hiding in the back of this garden it's dark ladies at the window and she's shouting like what are you doing in my in my garden and i was always sort of a voice of reasoning in in sort of extreme situations sometimes right and my friends they either wanted to give it to the woman i f off or run run and then i just said like like we're in like danger we've got a lot of men outside just look we won't destroy your garden won't do anything she said as long as you don't do anything you can hide there and that was it we got away with that one but yeah well a few of us so when you tell me about when it goes from kids playing fighting 14 15 when you get into proper adulthood how long has it's gone on for like when you because you listen at 14 15 you're ballsy 16 17 you become even more ballsy 18 19 you become even more balls you as it goes on and you probably get even more violent you get your hands on different weapons you can pay for different stuff where was it what age was it when it really got to a point when this is getting way too dangerous um i came out i felt i'm young offenders i was 15 years old i'd robbed a kid on a train with a saw a saw yeah a saw yeah yeah um which was graffiti taggers would get onto the trains and we saw the trains as like we knew everything about the trains would get into the back driver's cabin break in steal the detonators and then put them along the tracks and we'd break into the emergency cabin steal the first aid boxes go restaurant to restaurant selling them for 10 15 quid to get some hot food um and i knew there was a saw in there the other wz boys would rob someone day before had to keep the the status up so then i opened ripped open the um ripped open the emergency cabin and found a saw in there robbed a kid with a saw and um would you rob him for robbed him for gold on his um wrist and his around his neck um i went up to him when i was with my friend joe and nemzar and um i said give me a give me a effing jewelry this is how this was on the platform and um he told me where to go but in that young state of mind at 14 i was thinking well like why isn't he scared of me like all these all my kids in my gang they all scared me or they see i'm like this big man like what i couldn't couldn't get my head around here that weird without age and then that's when i got onto the train and done that to try to keep my status up and then i've brought obviously joe and my mate dean nemza into the robbery which they didn't want to be involved with we run off down the railway track thrown the saw where resty were going to felton young offenders well they waited till i was 15 years old i got sentenced to four only four months at kingston ground court and um yeah and then we was going to felton and i was just this little boy my mum's put me in a shirt and tie and i didn't realize i'm going to stand out like a sore thumb once you go into that prison van and i mean there's proper kids like track suits like banging in the door they want to yeah they want terrorize you and then i get to felton a film was a horrible place back then we're talking 99 26 years ago and i get put into this holding room and i'm looking at these other kids three asian boys in there got long greasy hair hands in their trails a screw face and not looking at me but i'm looking at her and i'm thinking what like my brain can't take how there's these asian kids that look tough because if you was in my community or you grew up around sutton you was and you had asian knew you was asian you was a you was a weak packing and shopkeepers were terrorized nf and that was sprayed on the wall and you're getting punched in your face i just couldn't get my head around it so felton young offenders is there's about 22 units and they're all named after birds yeah you've got a side 15 to 17 year olds and b side 18 to 21 year olds so i'll go on to the a side and I go into Heron unit and was bullied, terrorised from the off and made to sing out the window.

20:29So back then in Feltham, if you was made to sing out the window, sing a nursery rhyme, you was a fraggle. If you refuse to sing it, you can refuse to sing it, come out yourself in the morning and fight whosoever's trying it. But I was a weak kid. So I'm singing out the window, ridiculed, thinking that's going to stay with me forever. My friend next door is going, no, no, Justin. I get moved to the Fraggle unit. Yeah. Now the Fraggle unit was a unit for vulnerable kids, bullied kids, which was on bitten unit. But nowadays in Feltham Young Offenders do a lot of work in there. It's a unit for kids with neurodiverse issues.

21:10So from Feltham. Yeah. I want to get to adulthood. Yeah. When was the point when this went to a whole new level? Okay. So I come out of Feltham Young Offenders. Yeah. I'm on the street. I'm seen as like this hero around town because I've been to Felton, even though I was bullied, right? So now I've got girlfriend. Now, you know, I'm just deeper into this life where WZ spiraling completely out of control. Crazy Steve's in his house. We're hanging around in his house. He's worshiping the devil, doing all this weird satanic stuff. The walls have got blood, sick, graffiti all over. There's kid self-harming.

21:48there's a very dark and extreme environment and the level of wz the darkness and the violence where two of us two of the members got life sentences it was creeping in it was it wasn't like fun anymore so my friend stitch he stabbed a kid in um i won't say whatever it was in southwest london killed the kid he got a life sentence now how old was he he was 16 yeah he was 16 um and then we i had this girlfriend what did you used to carry around with you um but back then i wasn't really carrying a weapon it was if it came on top yeah if you're walking and then it's like shit there's wk shit there's this crew that crew there's mitchin boys this and that you would go you would look for the nearest weapon and that would usually be our tip of bin over i hear a pinging on the floor look glass bowl smash the bottle that's my weapon and that's So you protect yourself.

22:49One New Year's Eve, me and Joe, we're in his house. Joe's your best mate. Joe's my best mate. Yeah, we're in his house. We're drinking. He starts punching a mirror, breaks the mirror, his hands bleeding. And then he gets a razor and we look at each other like blood brothers. Yeah. So I get the razor and I'm like, do you dare me? Cut my arm. He's cut his arm. We're covered in blood. Yeah. Just going mental in his house thinking it's absolutely hilarious. Yeah. Heads covered in blood. Knock on the door. Door opens. And it's a WZ boy. And he's like, what the fuck? Like, he's shitting himself. So we're like, oh, my God.

23:24He runs off. We're like, okay, we look fucking crazy now. Yeah. Okay, let's go on to the streets like this. Yeah, so we're on the streets, New Year's Eve. Get onto a bus, see some shadow crew. They're like, what the fuck? Speak to my friend, speak to my cousin, Tony. He's with Kenneth. Kenneth's just come out of Young Offenders for just done some time for serious, like GBH section 18 or an attempted murder. Done a bit of time. He's a tough kid. Tough kids were coming out and just hanging around with WZ. He's a bit older. They tell me they're in a pub in South London. We're getting served. They're only 16, 17.

23:58Go to this pub. We're covered in blood. And the landlord says to us, look, boys, like you need to clean up or we're not serving you. So we're in the toilets. We're cleaning up. And then we come out and Kenneth and my cousin are being dragged out the pub by locals they had gone into the kitchen got the eggs and they're egging people and then we're getting dragged out into the street and we're hanging around and there's this man staring at me from across the road i'm staring in backs horrible drunk and um always just in trouble and shit and law of attraction mate if you've got that dark energy it's coming back for you yeah so this man comes over and he's like what are you looking at and he pulls out a knife.

24:42Now, Kenneth quick hits him, takes the knife. We start running off. We're going to meet up at this party, right? We don't even realise. We're so drunk. Midnight's passed. We're into the new year. Tony and Kenneth have gone one way. Me and Joe have gone another way. We get to where this party is. We're walking down this road. And then there's a girl, Danielle, who my ex-girlfriend who pretended she was pregnant by by me yeah so i had to go hospital everything and she had um you know sat there in the scan but realized you know the baby wasn't mine at 15 years old right so anyway we weren't on good terms she's having an argument with these men and these men come charging out of the the house and start hitting joe hitting my friends thinking we were with her we all run off we're all back together now so there's me joe kenneth tony and then danielle and her friend now joe's having a go danielle you got me bottle blah blah blah i'm splitting it up being the peacemaker i take danielle and her friend i say let's go my mates are going the other way this is at rose hill and we get up towards cintillin hospital we're sitting there absolutely paralytic tired and i see a car swerving down the road and it pulls up and it's Danielle's mum and she goes get into the get into the car Justin get into the car Danielle we're gonna get them we're gonna get I'm like what are you going on about I'm going to get my mates like I've got brought your daughter away from the situation they've jumped in the car they drove off I'm just sitting there sitting in the hospital same hospital where I found out that the kid weren't mine and then get a phone call to two minutes later screaming down the phone my mum's being stabbed my mum's being stabbed i start running back down to rose hill get to rose hill danielle's mum's laying on the floor everyone's around her she jumped out the car to try to um attack my friends and kenneth has pulled out the knife from earlier on in the evening and stabbed her in the stomach and then they've disappeared they've all they've all ran off that was when it got really really serious what age were you?

26:58I think I was 16 years old how long did this go on for? have you ever been banged up? yeah how old were you when you got banged up?

27:0817 I got remanded and I was going to get four and a half years in prison

27:17so from 12 to 13 to 14 this is all escalating isn't it? 15, 16, 17 you know you're like at that age you're going right the more violent i am the more street cred i'm going to get the more fear i'll go get but deep down you're a little boy yeah with fear yeah projecting fear on other people yeah why did you get banged up 17 i was in felton young offenders just after danielle's mom got stabbed for a robbery i was on remand um i was phoning home phoning joe's home so i don't want to speak to my boys like they're my family malden's my home want to know what's going out on the streets um going on and um one day i phoned joe's phone different voice answers the phone i know straight away something's up and i'm told that joe was found dead in malden um behind a parade of shops where he used to hang around um 17 16 17 years old and then I'm put into a strip cell my mum's phoned up the prison and said she's found out after me said you know she's worried about me so put me in a strip cell strip cells want to take all your stuff off your clothes and they put you in an unrippable gown you can't harm yourself um and I'm there just laying there scratching R.I.P.

28:34bath into the wall just disturbed and you know shocked and don't know what's going through my head and then I'm released from prison I go back into my community i can't understand why my friends aren't mourning i'm sleeping white where joe died behind this um parade of shops um and i'm just my mental health is deteriorating when when it's deteriorating you don't realize it yourself you're you're in it yeah so crying just all this stuff yeah right erratic yeah and i'm sleeping there then i'm climbing up on the roof which is um that looks over sort of malden station and i've just started becoming even more violent yeah um so my gang's not around me and i've got boys from like croydon brixton streatham they're after me i keep like going to like like um under 18s club nights and there's other gangs here and i'm just like putting it on them yeah i'm just being really violent putting on so they're all coming after me yeah he's from malden so then people would phone me on my 51 10 or 52 10 i'm on a roof in maldon heavily intoxicated meat cleaver on my waistband for protection and i say croydon boys have just got off the bus they're looking so you're carrying a meat cleaver yeah i'm carrying a meat cleaver yeah because because i'm on my own how big's a meat cleaver meat cleaver is like yeah like that slots into the waistband handle there so if kids would come for me a group of kids i'm on my own um it would be more scary if i produced a meat cleaver rather than a rather than a knife yeah so they're coming for me i'm looking over the roof in moldom and i'm literally seeing the boys come off they look for me they're going under me now and then they're going around and they're going around looking behind the parades of shop to where like joe died and i can't take it anymore the pressure of everything i'm looking there my friends they're looking there got croydon boys after me um i've gone to this sounds like proper a headache it is i just listening to it i'm like this sounds like headache it is a headache like bringing this on yourself to become more violent giving you more headache more stress more to the your best mates died you've got geezers after you're carrying a cleaver you're 17 18 years old yeah you're like a little lost soldier who's been super violent to protect yourself that's what it is and that's why most men are out there giving it the the big i am because deep down they're just scared.

31:01Have you ever used that meat cleaver on anyone? Yeah. So I got onto a London underground troop with a younger WZ member. I said, no, I've had a fucking enough. Let's, let's just get on. Let's just go mad. But British transport police knew me anyway. So it's like, either way, I'm going to kill someone. I'm going to be killed or I'm going to get a life sentence. Yeah. So I'm on CCTV. We get onto the London Underground. Maldon, last stop on the Northern Line or first stop on the Northern Line, people would fall asleep. They're meant to get off a clap and that end up at Maldon, yeah? Drunk from being out in Central.

31:35Missed their stop. Tube started to head towards South Wimbledon. There's a man sitting there. My mate starts going through his pockets, yeah? He wakes up, sees me standing there with a meat cleaver and jumps up and cuts his chin on the meat cleaver just as the doors are opening at South Wimbledon. He jumps off, he runs off. Now, any normal person, well, any normal person wouldn't be doing that anyway, but any person with half a sense would think, oh my fuck, I've just cut an innocent person with this meat cleaver. I don't, I'm still on the tube. A man comes down the carriage, door's shut now, going towards Collier's Wood.

32:11Man comes down the carriage, he's obviously seen what's happened and he goes to me, yeah? And he's grabbed my arms, don't know where my friend's gone and we're like wrestling. I'm some skinny little kid and I've fallen onto the floor of the tube now we're rocking and I'm looking side to side I'm seeing fucking flashing lights at the tunnel everything's just rolling through my mind I look up at him and I'm just like fucking take it and he gets the meat cleaver but my mate's reappearing he's trying to get him off me now the man's got the meat cleaver I jump up and I run down a tube and then I stop in the corner and the man I didn't know he'd he was chopping me until i saw like a fresh white bone coming out of my thumb and then um so he's got the cleaver he's putting it on you now yeah and who is this geezer just a random just a random guy that's seen me seen you he's thinking how dare's that kid go and do that to a random i'm gonna have him okay yeah fair play to him yeah looking back like when i look back isn't that now and i saw that fair play the geezer coming over and try to wrestle with you and nick the cleaver off yeah well i've always said i got chopped four times i fully deserved being chopped with a meat cleaver and i fully deserved getting four and a half years in prison because of the shit that i went through in my childhood and my trauma and my mental health that gave me no excuse or no reason to go and hurt others and other people and innocent people because trauma attracts trauma if you're a traumatizing individual you might attract other fucking people that want to bully you i don't right yeah yeah or or you're gonna violence attracts violence horrible sick world yeah and i went to the hospital i was arrested i got four and a half years in prison for that i was put into the health care unit because i was mentally unwell in hmp high down and i was put into a suicide watch cell and i'm the only young offender on this unit um because there was a young offender unit in the prison which had just opened from the overflow from felton so but there wasn't a separate health care so they didn't know what to do that and planned for it so now i'm there i'm a young offender that's on a health care unit with adults and two cat a's so i'm in this high security prison in a suicide watch cell which was a gate was a gated cell so i can take it in shifts to watch you and that was held for vulnerable prisons that were at risk of suicide mentally unwell or higher profile prisoners that they didn't want to commit suicide whilst they were on remand waiting for trial so there was a guy that was all over the news he had done a run to america he had chopped his best friend up battered him to death in the house in basing stoke chopped his best friend up chopped his head off thrown his head into the next door neighbor's garden cooked his arm in the oven and he had done a run to america he was caught in america extradited to England put into high down comes walking down the corridor put into the cell next to me so at 18 years old I'm being held next to this guy and where I've still got this mentality of I've got to be the sickest craziest kid I'm phoning home like yeah my new mate Richard Markham um couldn't understand it at the time couldn't understand that I was in danger as well um and I was self-harming I was kicking off I was trying to get sectioned and um and then this prisoner come to the to the this prisoner come for accumulated visits high security prisoner adult reputation within the prison system it was baths joe's dad i never knew what was going on in the background and no no razor smith yeah yeah and who's very well respected yeah and he was come to the prison and uh the prison knew there was a link between us i'd never met him before and it was actually joe's birthday and they thought it would be good to take me up to the chapel on joe's birthday to meet razer because he's a man and i'm a kid and for him to sort of help me so i walked into the chapel i see razer sitting there and um yeah on joe's birthday we sat in chapel together in high down and then he started to come down to the gated cell regularly to have you know sort of like look after me mentally whilst he was in the prison and um i was like look razor this is my mate um richard and he couldn't believe it i was being held next to him but i moved to hmp woodhill in milton kings onto the young offender unit and then i received a letter and i opened up the letter and it had a blue slip inside and it said this this mail has been thoroughly checked by the staff at broadmoor and richard markham had been sent to broadmoor for attacking someone on the healthcare unit back in high down front boiling water over him and up yeah i want to go back to your best mate joe yep how did he die joe was found in suspicious circumstances yeah he was found dead behind a parade of shops um because he's very sensitive to the family still to this day 24 years you know um has passed still very sensitive i've never been able to say exactly how he died but but in reality at the at the um the coroner's call it was left as a open verdict like there was things you know that had happened that they didn't know you know they it was basically a suspicious death is what i'm saying so also someone handed a letter in an anonymous letter into malden police station saying a local family that we had beef with um had killed joe but it was never investigated so to this day we to this day we don't know what what happened what's your suspicion um i don't know it's an uncomfortable uncomfortable yeah very uncomfortable thinking about i had his dad on the podcast yeah and he doesn't know yeah no one knows it's left as open verdict so what a horrible feeling for the dad not knowing yeah but then again that might be a nice feeling not knowing because maybe if you actually found out and you knew you don't yeah and you could do nothing because he was he was in nick himself you couldn't do anything that's a difficult one isn't it which he eventually changed razor's life that's right he had to he said his life razor spent 35 years in prison yeah that was the moment when he said i'm not coming out and i'm not going to be the most prolific great great britain's most prolific bank robber i'm not going to do anything he just went clean as soon as i come out

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39:18What did that do to you when you knew that your best mate had been killed? Well, we don't know if he was killed. We don't know what happened to him. so but you can see from me my mental crisis breakdown of just going yeah doing something absolutely horrendous on a tube to die or you know to get lifed off because when I was eventually you know went through in hospital for a few days Wimbledon magistrates off the high down and then I was sitting in that cell and everything felt calm everything felt calm I was away from more than away from joe's death i was away from gangs after me but the real mental illness and and that was to come so yeah how long did you do that four and a half three years yeah three years how old were you when you came out i came out 21 extremely unwell really really disturbed horrible really yeah give an example of how disturbed were you using drugs in prison no nothing no no not really young offenders so when you come out of 21 how disturbed were you were you angry i was um very very i know it's mad because i've been violent anyway but i was like uncontrollably violent but it was because i had undiagnosed ptsd because of what had happened to me after like moving from hmp woodhill to hmyy owlsbury in buckinghamshire which was a young offenders that housed um 18 to 21 year old serving four years to life brutal fucking place man horrendous what was it called h and y y alsbury in buckinghamshire so if you was 18 to 21 year old yeah do it you're the four years to life so there was lifers from all around the country all the sadistic cases you see at that era like everyone everyone was everyone was in for murder like like that's your friends like my friend nathan sri lankan boy the met police like operation trident they had a tamil task force where it was to like to crack down on tamil killings in the capital and him and tamils yeah tamils sri lankan like uh i don't know the exact right words but in in sri lanka you have tamils and you have singalese okay and in london there's a big tamil community like two in and up in wembley and that yeah so tamil murder so nathan and his friends had killed another kid i don't know if the other kid was tamil or singilees but they killed him and then they burnt his body in the in a park uh fergus tracy was one of my friends he had killed a homeless man in the park in east london he was a serious self-armer he would like the self-arming prison and young offenders is horrendous he had cut remember he cut his arm and he was calling me because i was a cleaner opened up his flap and he was and he was pulling his ligaments waving at me i heard that he committed suicide in in bell marsh there was a kid there was a kid that i was next to in the punishment unit called danosonics he was in for robbing a chinese takeaway yeah um and he got out of prison and ended up killing two foreign exchange students in a house in southeast london i mean stabbing them like hundred odd times and burning the burning the property down i don't even like listening to this i'm listening now i don't even like listening to all of this this is this is the reality i get it i get it i get it i totally get it and i understand that but actually me listening to this now i'm thinking this is bonkers this is and i know all this goes on but this is but hearing it from you who who's been around it to actually go this is this does happen you know what what message are you trying to give here to young offenders and young kids at the moment who are we're in your situation where they're caught up with fear and they're getting more and more violent because there's a lot of violence on the streets and it's i'm seeing it's getting worse as well yeah what message have you got for someone who's been here and got the t-shirt well my message is that trauma starts in your early childhood yeah so i had like multiple fucking brutal things happen to me when I was a child, yeah?

43:37But it doesn't have to be physical or sexual abuse. It can also be neglect from your parents. A parent liking you, they're not liking you. Attachment issues. That's going to build a really fucked up character, yeah? So my message is that it starts in your early childhood, yeah? My book, The Lost Boys, is studied during criminology degrees. Was it early head trauma? This one here? Yeah. The Lost Boys. Yeah. It was turned to set text by Professor David Wilson in Birmingham City Uni to be studied within criminology then it's spread through universities yeah so that's my message that it starts in your early childhood but then my message because i lecture in prisons lived experience lecturing up and down the country and that a lot of these men they're just like they they're kids in adults out in adults clothes yes so i get invited up to hmp home house in stockton on t's i'm thinking fucking hell like um mixed race south london are these northerns gonna think like mate well i got up and i told my story early childhood trauma all the bullshit all the madness that happens the pattern and then i talk about all the therapies that i use to turn my life around but you when you're talking i can read the room right i can see men full grown men it doesn't matter where you're from southern and northern or white black whatever trauma childhood of trauma is the same yeah you see them fucking shrinking in their seats going you can see their and afterwards you know it's real because they come up to you they might not put their hand up to ask questions but they come up to you have a word with you privately and say that's my fucking childhood yeah and the whole idea is to plant a seed yeah if like show the pattern of behavior escalating plant a seed and then and they're filling with the the therapies that i use and then all the successes i've had to so they're free from a trauma so they can go away and and to their cell when they can think and think about it's funny isn't it the amount of people we've done 350 odd episodes in and for covering all sorts of topics yeah whether you're a bank robber whether you're a criminal whether you're an entrepreneur or sportsman it all comes that every violent person who's been on this podcast has all had trauma as a kid yeah in the cover-up of fear yeah well they they reckon um so there's been protecting themselves yeah as an adult they're protect themselves that in a child that has not been dealt with as a six-year-old three-year-old seven-year-old eight-year-old hasn't been dealt with is carrying through for them to be the most craziest person on the streets like you're saying there like as but i'm finding this i'm trying to think here now i'm like god you would have had trauma as a kid as a young kid is there one trauma that sticks out in your mind just one as a kid when growing up well there's two that are very close to each other so at three years old i was left in a garden my stepdad owned a large doberman dog and there's a family gathering parents and stuff are drinking doing whatever i don't know i'm three years old i'm a toddler going to the garden to retrieve my ball and the doberman dog just grabs me around the head and dragging me around the garden um i've got his bottom jaw scar there top jaw across my head tooth marked by my eye parents get the dog off me i'm rushed to sydney hospital heads all stitched up no tests are done on my brain for a brain traumatic injury but multiple studies show about 70 percent of the young offenders in the uk have had a serious head injury as a child some up to 40 percent have lost consciousness through that head injury yeah and that can lead on to adhd and and other things violent outbursts in your teenage years early 20s there's been studies done on murderers that have been released yeah brain scans that part of the brain so after that i started to bang my head to get to sleep three years old laying in bed banging my head on the pillow repetitively as i'm waking up in the morning banging my head coming around yeah um that's called a rhythmic movement disorder that comes can come from a from that's a child sleeping disorder it can come from head injury that wasn't picked up yeah at five years old i'm being left a child miners on the ben hill estate in sutton i'm in a room downstairs the child miner's son comes downstairs i'm with another kid i'm five years old the other kid's about five he pulls out a fishing wire he starts to strangle the other child i'm watching this kid being strangled abused and then he comes over to me start strangling me I'm crying I'm sweating in fear and he's going back I thought strangling us we're both crying I don't think he was crying actually I remember that stood out to me because I thought I was weaker because I was crying now at five years old I must have been thinking my mum's gonna come collect me save me I don't know what do you think as a five-year-old right mum comes don't know what said the very next day I'm back in that care the physical abuse stops but the child miner starts to get involved it starts to lock me on the balcony now everything that That leads to a mental crisis is all to do with memories and how things happen and played out.

48:41So as a kid then, you've gone through that. You've gone through going to the, you've come out of Nick at 21. What are you doing when you come out of prison at 21? Well, I've had a serious mental breakdown in prison where I've tried to kill myself because I've been attacked by a guy that's in prison. That just ran me, attacked me, headbutted me. I've fallen on the floor, go back to my cell. he gets taken to the punishment block and i i start to ruminate yeah oh my god why does that guy attack me oh my god why has this happened why is that how someone says to me do you know that guy's in prison for i said no he said murder and attempted murder he had beaten two kids unconscious him and his group of friends beating two kids skateboarders unconscious on a bridge similar to london bridge 40 foot high thrown them off of the bridge one of them died never gang conscious drowned the other one woke up floating past big ben is rucked up with saying holding him up so i'm in my cell now i'm thinking fuck me this kid's just attacked me for no reason he's got nothing he's going to come back and kill me i'm serving the food up he walks around the corner after two three weeks and he's staring at me with his eyes staring at me in the eyes right thinking fuck me he's going to kill me for a year and a half i had to watch my back from him on the prison unit thinking he's going to kill me and that level of fear and ruminating where i can't stop thinking about it people are talking to turn my tv down are they talking about me out the window and i basically had a mental crisis where an ocd kicked in and an obsessive compulsive disorder which would have started in my early childhood as well because i remember other things hiding my pack lunch from my mom the kid saw one magpie i was a one magpie it's bad luck salute salute and i'm doing all these things thinking they're all real when i'm in that moment i'm having that mental crisis i'm walking now i'm going tapping something five times doing this cleaning this had a mental crisis and then one day I'm locked in this cell and I see the kid's name scratched onto the back of the door and I'm like he's been in this cell we slept in this bed and I start sleeping on the floor I don't know there's meetings going on about me in the background about you know possibly calling a psychiatrist out to take a look at me and section me and I barricaded myself in the cell set on fire seriously self-harmed and somehow I survived and somehow I was released back into the street with that mentality I couldn't handle being around my own family I'm in my bedroom and there's this thin little door wooden door normal bedroom door mate that was like a piece of paper to me anyone can come through there and kill me and I couldn't go past my family so I was going to Sainsbury's buying five litre bottles of water emptying them and pissing in them to avoid going to toilets I couldn't walk past my family but when you're mentally unwell you don't realize it so eventually it kicks off with my family and back then he's mad he's mental that's it you're fucking mad you're mental but if someone looked to me in the eyes for too long it would take me straight back to that killer and it was fucking attack it was fight or flight and that's how my life's then it was like i gave up i can't get a job i can't do that i can't be around on people i'm going to just be a criminal and that was my mind so what did you do when you come out of prison then to be a criminal what criminality did you do when you come out of prison well i'm not going to talk about anything that i you know wasn't ever convicted for but i just was known as a very violent man in my community and when you're in that world it's a dark world it's just a horrible place were you involved in drugs were you involved in robin robin so it's robin yeah robin houses robin banks robin what was your world it would the world would be the world would be i've got to move you you you would have a phone your your phone network of just primitive just criminals it's a different world you're in that world sevens is game I've got to move this person's got this amount of money they're going to be blah blah blah and that was the world or robbing drug dealers just robbing money it didn't matter from where though give me an example I need to know are you robbing houses are you robbing banks are you robbing drug dealers what are you robbing I'm not going to say because that's incriminating myself I'm not on here I'm only here to talk about stuff that you know is in my book or I've been convicted for that would be stupid for me to say yeah and um i want to know what you're robbing cars robbing anything mate when you're like it like and like i want to know like robbing people robbing cars robbing banks robbing robbing what yeah let's just let's just say robbing people then robbing people okay okay so it wasn't going in with banks with shooters or anything like that or i think um that's all game was like dead and buried by then cctv came right on top didn't it yeah so what so you've gone out of there when was the point when you turned your life around then how old are you today 41 41 so you come out 21 how many more years are you still at it when you go i've got to stop this game because i'm one i'm doing my own editing yeah two i'm probably probably going nuts inside you're probably going nuts your own stuff going in your own mind yeah when was it when you actually stopped well i had a young daughter and i'm doing crime yeah thinking i don't matter if i go prison for a couple years she's never gonna know i got into an altercation outside a nightclub in sutton going to a bad fight smash the bottle cut to innocent people thinking it was the crowd that was attacking me i was concussed i thought i was going to go back to prison thought fuck me that nightmare of ocd all that shit someone goes why don't you go to therapy i was like i don't want to go to fucking therapy for went to therapy sat down in front of this therapist she was like let's go back to her early childhood i was like what the fuck do you want to go back to the early childhood i'm worried about going back to prison because all this paranoia and that's going to come this OCD and that when these go back to early childhood we spoke about the incident that happened to me a childminder and the fear that I had for that childminder was the fear that I had for when this racist bully punched me in the nose at nine years old called me a paki for the first time that level of fear and terror was always in my chest right and it escalated to WK and then eventually when I was at my most vulnerable in prison after my friend had died and a real killer attacked me then had the mental crisis because all memories are linked so i was like she was like that's child abuse i was like no it's not see that's fucking that's child abuse that's neglect on your mum's behalf fuck me like that would you don't talk about my mum like that you know i'm saying at that age at that time i was 23 i think i couldn't like that was that was like a clog in my brain i couldn't handle it yeah but i left therapy i didn't go to prison in the end all right um i left therapy thinking i'm healed always wanted to write a book razor was an inspiration to me he wrote a few kind words and a loaded gun it become a bestseller from behind bars um so i wrote the lost boys of dark side graffiti i was sending it to razor whilst he was in prison still serving his life sentence he was going this is fucking brilliant i keep going written in my own voice right um get a publishing deal waterside press criminal justice publisher now i think i'm healed i'm 23 years old fucking i'm 23 or 24 i think i'm healed you don't heal from that level of mental illness and yeah yeah so i think i'm healed i've got a now i've got a timeline of events and can see things have escalated yep so i carried on my life was going like i would get invited to do talks by my publisher to say the greenwich university was one uh two days before i'd pull out i was always pulling out so couldn't you know um handle being around people i was like make myself ill before going there right um years went on um and i kept on having these like relapses i was sleeping with an axe next to my bed lived in a flat in tooting and i had got a closing like folding security gate behind my door you had to get through like three doors and then a closed security gate but still you know i'm in danger that was my mind right ptsd someone stared at me for too long gonna kill me i saw the 127 bus driving from through tooting because it was a 127 and that prisoner that attacked me his cell number was 217 fucking the multiple not the same numbers oh my god and i'm just acting like agitated and like my family's like what the fuck's wrong with him you're mad you're mental it's ptsd i started looking at my symptoms online right come up with something called cpt complex ptsd yeah um and complex ptsd is not the same as ptsd it's like multiple traumas through early childhood physical sexual neglect yeah fucking and if you're not protected as a child you're more likely to be going through or attract like more more like vulnerable situations and um and i looked at the symptoms like that that is fucking that is me all over yeah um and then how can i cure this can you really cure it i found a therapy called emdr which stands for eye movement desensitization reprocessing it's about how we process memory so when we go to sleep we have something called REM rapid eye movement and that is when we our eyes are moving slightly side to side we might have weird dreams or nightmares things we've seen throughout the day so through EMDR therapy being with a trained EMDR therapist go into that place prisoner walking around the corner staring at me with those eyes what do you feel absolute fucking terror on my chest level 10 go there feel it really fucking feel it and then the therapist will start moving her finger side to side well you've got headphones on with bilateral beats going toot toot toot or with complex ptsd you do a protocol called emdr 2.0 so standard emdr could be like tapping or standard eye movements but emdr 2.0 you're walking out to the right walking out to the left um your therapist could be doing things all different directions scrambling your brain while you feel that memory and eventually your brain processes because when you go through trauma it gets stored in the amygdala and it doesn't process and you actually relive what you was feeling at that time so can you imagine these kids in Felton Young Offenders other young offenders institutions being bullied by their stepdad and a big officer comes along and they're reacting a certain way being locked in the balcony by the child mind and then I'm being locked in that cell and I'm kicking off and I'm trapped and I'm going fucking mental.

58:56How long, what age were you when this all stopped? This was, I would like today you're 31. Yeah. Even just listening to this is hard. Yeah. Like I dread to think what you've gone through. Yeah. You know, cause you're explaining it like within an hour period here, but your daily torture in your own mind must've been brutal. Yeah. That's the joys of having ADHD and a heading serious headings as a child. Yeah. So, so like at 41 today yeah what year was it when you actually set yourself free and life was just calm 2019 i started to do um emdr therapy so how old were you then so maths uh yeah so it took you to 35 just to get at peace no no not at peace are you at peace today ah you never be at peace you can't be i refuse to be medicated don't want to be medicated my adhd when i'm on on point it's a superpower like a multi-task fucking 15 15 jobs at the same time yeah um so that's a superpower but then you fucking the other side of it is ruminating yeah yeah fucking my my brain's like that a washing machine yeah and then you hyper focus on something i hear you but i hear you i get it yeah but for the prison population yeah you've got adhd and you're a fucking kid and you're sitting in that cell 23 hours playing you can't be in mood yeah yeah yeah no mate um yeah i get the whole thing mate yeah so so i started emdr then but i lockdown come in didn't it so um so i'd done it on and off for about three and a half years are you happy today i'm i this is how i explain it i've got sainsbury's a 10 minute walk from me yeah my mooc and fucking go 10 different i can go to 10 different moves on that walk to some reason back yeah when i'm working i've got i work in prisons yeah when i work in in the prison environment ah fuck it i love it i'm happy in your lock to the same you do yeah i hear you happiest i have a mural company yeah um and and a lived experience speaking company yeah i've worked in i've sight visited 53 prisons across the uk helping other prisons yeah good for you yeah and that's when I'm at my happiest when I'm on the motorway and I'm up and down the UK like a mad man going from Durham to Stockton on Tees down to Doncaster over to Birmingham back there back there and that's what I love I love it my brain is is working but it's finding that so when your brain yeah when you stop yeah and have calmness there isn't I don't know for example even now this has been this has been like a full-on episode yeah and I understand your mind yeah I get it when you're just at calmness like even now let's just give a bit of peace right now a bit of calmness both of us like just calm yeah yeah

1:01:54and just silence is a nice thing man there ain't there's no silence in my life there's no in that at all I fucking wake up in the night singing songs remembering this thing that thing but I come up with a message best ideas that's full on adhd isn't it but you mix it mix adhd yeah with a violent mind with trauma that's a combination those three right but what happens is my adhd is a hundred times worse now yeah because when once you've processed that because that these these symptoms overlap yeah so once you process with a solid emdr therapist mine was a a consultant for the nhs when like i mean knows her stuff when we processed all of that then it's like boom the adhd is here and it ain't fucking going yeah and it is a hundred miles an hour sensory processing disorder as well i can hear fucking sounds that my family can't hear light smells like yeah everything mate it's it's it can be an absolute nightmare that but it will also be an absolute superpower it is a superpower yeah yeah if used correctly yeah if used correctly yeah yeah but yeah i let's just have some yeah let's have some more peace yeah i can't i can't um yeah i can't um i can't lock off yeah i have to have blacked out blacked out room to go sleep white noise melatonin a lot and i'm still up singing in the night but it is well it is I want to I'm yeah I'm not I'm not going to be dumbed down and medicated no yeah

1:03:54yeah the science is making me feel uncomfortable yeah I know I'm just having to go just interested yeah Can I see how quick your mind is back on it again? Yeah. Yeah, man. What's the nicest thing in the day that can happen to you? My little boy, five years old, running through the door, jumping into my arms. I'm a little girl as well, but my little boy, he's just like, yeah, he's, yeah. So it's the inner child, isn't it? Giving him the love and everything. think and yeah yeah that that's the best thing or my my two english bulldogs as well because they're just uh rollo and ranger okay yeah because they're just dopey silly stupid and what do you do what do you do to relax i don't think i do relax i go on holiday i can't relax yeah can't relax do you feel relaxed now no because you asked me to stay in silence yeah it's interesting to say it's interesting to say yeah why do you think that is that silence isn't a nice thing for you because for me silence brings a kind of calmness yeah i quite enjoy that i got like running for i run three businesses i'm juggling loads and loads of stuff i've got new guests coming in, I've got a festival, all this stuff going on.

1:05:24But actually when I'm the same as you, my mind is like full on. But I'm also very good at being at peace and calmness. And actually I can just lay on the side and just go, oh, I'm brave. Or just go for a walk by myself. And just try to switch off. It's hard. It's really hard. Is there ever a route you go to, just to try to silent the mind? No. right i don't think most of the time i'm not i'm not present but i will remember what my family it's like sometimes they'll be speaking to me asking things this and that and i'm just talking but i'm not really present but then later on at night when i wake up in the night i start remembering everything they asked me or this and that yeah the other day i took my eldest daughter who's 18 i took her out some food just me and her things you know she's growing up let's let's kind of spend some time and i looked across the table at her and i felt really happy and i felt present in that moment but that's only for a moment then i'm my brain's off again yeah yeah justin thank you for your honesty yeah thanks for having me no thank you for your honesty i can i can you're only gonna get the truth if you speak to me i don't care i i don't care if i stand up in front of prisoners yeah yeah and sing bar bar black sheep and they're all fucking in hysterics because straight away they think you know what i'm not fucking this guy's you know i mean and and it lets them loosen up and yeah i can you know i mean because it's not a joke out here prison's not a joke it's been to 53 prisons i never thought i would go to you know from being where i was i've been into my old prison cells do you know i mean i've got friends across prison governors across the country what's your what's your ultimate goal right now you've gone through a mad upbringing craziness going on you've gone come out of nick at 21 after the axe then yeah You're now hit 35.

1:07:15You hit 35 and you go, right, I need to work on my mind and work out what's going on. What's the ultimate goal for you right now? What's the thing that will make you the most, bring you the most happiness and calmness as you get older? You're 41 today. Yeah, 41. Just, I don't know. So, like, I'm happy the way my company is going. my my messages is spreading out there more um giving my children a happier childhood and and they would have seen me yeah yeah before that emdi i had a horrible mental breakdown the ocd thing come back i never thought it could come back my middle daughter um 10 years old she saw that and then i started seeing her ocd behaviors okay i've got her emdi therapy so just to to to break the generational trauma the break general trauma and i don't think i've done it and it's fucking horrible and it eats me up because you know you're a child and you're fucking innocent and you're beautiful and you deserve to be loved but you know i'm very open and honest like my eldest daughter i tell her look you don't have to have your need therapy like when you're older do you remember this event i was like be down the street while someone looking at me like what the fuck in front you know what i mean yeah yeah that's scary for a child yeah so break that generational trauma company to do well and to get my message of of what i'm trying to like of of childhood trauma the all the telltale signs all the gang shit why you're there you know i mean and then to help men men in prison which i'm doing good for you yeah and then to spread the message of hope and i get messages all the time that's the that's the we just nailed there that's the beautiful message of hope yeah good for you and the book out here in on out there go and check it out the lost boys boyz the dark side of graffiti justin rollins forward by noel razor smith i'd imagine this is going to be really raw i'm really yeah well i wrote it when i was 24 undiagnosed ptsd and adhd so it's like listening to the mind of a 14 year old but there's a book that was written in 1930 by clifford shaw a psycho uh psychiatrist and a juvenile delinquent in chicago yeah called a jack roller he's a kid he's robbing people and um he's going into what you would call a young offenders and clifford shaw the psychiatrist gives him a pen and paper says fucking tell me what's going on yeah yeah it was the first time that behavior was humanized nearly a century ago and that has become a classic piece of text in sociology and criminology now criminology lecturers criminologists that i've worked with academics they say that the lost boys is the jack roller 100 years later so yeah just now i wish you all the best thank you nice one for making the effort coming down yeah thanks thanks for having me no my pleasure mate my pleasure cheers mate good man cheers i can know you put me under pressure man but it was good though because my mind's going this ain't the same as the others this is cool hi guys i really hope you enjoyed that as much as i did can you do us a favor and leave us a review as it massively helps us grow the show.

1:10:30Cheers, guys.

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