#331. South London Mafia Family - Joey Pyle Jr

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0:43Joey Pyle Jr: Four rounds, multiple games, one winner, plus a halftime performance by multi-platinum artist Travi McCoy. Watch all the action and see who wins and advances to the championship match against Nioh right now at GlobalGamingLeague.com. That's GlobalGamingLeague.com. Everybody games. What's it like growing up as the son of the godfather of gangsters? Well, to me, he was a dad. He was a normal fella. How would you explain the reputation your dad had? When he was in company, he dominated that company. He wasn't a liberty taker. No, OK. What sort of faces of dames would he have wrapped around him all those years?

1:19Dodge Woodall: Oh, he had a good team, the old man. Peter Tilly, Peter Marshall from the Nash Brothers. Then you had Roy Shaw as well. In the 80s, it was a bloody madhouse. You know there's a carload of fellas coming to shoot you. You've got to find them before they find you. It's a horrible, horrible, horrible feeling. You know, 21, 22, I'm making decisions where people's lives are in my hand. My dad's been in prison. Both my uncles have been in prison. My grandfather's been in prison. Prison will either crush you someone or you stand strong, you know what I mean? They weren't going to crush me.

1:48Joey Pyle Jr: I heard the funeral was unreal. Who was there that day, you can remember? I can't, Jesus. We weren't now. Has there ever been a time, Joey, when something's come on top so much that you thought, oh no.

2:00Dodge Woodall: I can't talk too much about it, but there's been times like, you know.

2:10Joey Pyle Jr: Let's roll all the way back. What's it like growing up as the son of the godfather of gangsters?

2:15Dodge Woodall: Oh, that's a statement, isn't it? To me, he was a dad. He was a normal fella. You know, obviously I did notice he was different. But, you know, there was things about my father. He was a larger-than-life character. And as I was a young kid, you know, all kids look up to their dads. You know, look up to their dads. He was a big, powerful man as well. But then you start noticing when he's in... You know, one thing about my father, when he was in company, he dominated that company. That was the first thing I started noticing. He'd never be in a company of five or six guys, and he'd be in the background.

2:49Dodge Woodall: The five or six guys would be sitting around him. He'd be in the centre. He didn't call that attention, but his aura was there. And you felt me for a resort. I remember a guy saying to me years ago, he said, you know, he said, when your dad walked into a pub, I didn't even have to be looking at the door. We just knew he'd walked into the pub by the atmosphere changed. And I don't mean that in a fearful way, because my dad was never a bully, hated bullies. But there was just a presence around them guys, you know. you know um as i got older the villains side of it obviously i've got to know um my family's always been going back to my grandparents who were uncles aunties we've always been what i call scallywags you know you know we never had never actually been uh you know yeah i remember as a as a kid you know i was six seven years of age you know i was sitting around my nan's house and you know and they're playing games, knocking on the door.

3:50Dodge Woodall: And my name's going to be Joe, shout out. All covers are B words. You know, it was always that. We were more like a clan. The family was very clannish. My father's mother, Kathy, she was very, very... Her whole life was family. Put it that way. You know, my dad was a little bit different. My dad loved his friends. But my nan was like, you know, she'd say to my dad, you know, your friends are bloody idiots. you know leave it mum but so as I grew up I started noticing these different things and you know one of the first things that ever happened to me was when I was a kid it was I don't know if they still have it now but there's pen pals from France yeah and you can stay in France with them and they have a thing when they come over and stay with you and they also let us one out whatever they were having thoughts at the school about sending the kid to stay at our house.

4:52Dodge Woodall: You know, and that was what, you know, I remember my mum and dad going down there, you know, what's the matter with us? You know, and that was all to do with the crime. The reputation. Yeah, the reputation thing. And the kid ended up coming and staying at the house. How would you explain the reputation your dad had? Well, you know, some things in life just, you know, you get good people and you get bad people. but Dab was always a good person. But as things were happening in your lifetime, like I'll tell you what made me far, really, and it was the biggest crisis of his life, was the pen club shooting.

5:25Dodge Woodall: The what, sorry? The pen club shooting back in 1962, I think it was. And it was a guy called Cooney got shot at Spitalfields Market, and it was my dad, Jimmy Nash Brothers, and a guy called Johnny Reed. And the three of them went into the club, and bang, bang, bang, and this guy turned out later. He was an informer for the old bill or whatever. And he ended up getting murdered, and then me dad got arrested for him. That was about 22. And in them days, you had the death penalty. So you're going to get up. And the three of them were nicked. My dad was the youngest. So the three of them kept their mouths shut.

6:13Dodge Woodall: You know, like the old days. I don't mean the way it should be. You get nicked. You keep your mouth shut. You know what I mean? Let me say. But when you're going to get hung, it's a different kettle of fish. I mean, get 10 years, you're going to get murdered. So, you know, at times I've been nicked, you know, I would never thank him. If I'm working with a guy, I would never say thank you for not grassing me up because I shouldn't have been working with him in the first place. You'd expect that. But you've still got to admire someone who's going to get hung, going to lose their family, going to lose everybody, you think about it.

6:45Joey Pyle Jr: Isn't that mad when you think about it? That was in the 60s. You could get hung. Yeah.

6:50Dodge Woodall: It's crazy. And in them days, it was none of this sitting like in America, sitting on death for over 10 years. You ever seen the film about, I think it was Derek Bentley, Let Him Have It? And it shows you when he murdered the cop on the rooftop in Corden. It was like you got convicted on that day, 30 days later, you was hung. Bloody hell. There was no appeals. There was no nothing. it was like literally crash bang wallop he was taken into a room and it was horrifying as well when they took him into the room and they sat him down and all of a sudden and they're talking to him like would you want to have a meal and all of a sudden crash the doors went open up up up up up up put the hood over his head bang they'd done it quick you know what I mean like like bang bang it was done in 30 40 seconds for him walking in the room brutal and that's what you had in the 60s and me dad got a knock guilty from that and in them days it was all over the newspapers it was you know gangland murder and so he got a reputation from that when he come out okay um how long did he do in the end i think they ended up getting nicked in the end they got guilty on the gbh like it's like a fray okay they got guilty on the on the punch up not another murder uh the judge actually come out and said the uh immortal lines he you know the first jury collapsed you know collapsed you know witnesses wouldn't turn up loads of witnesses with the fear yeah well I can say it now you know because the guys are dead you know but it was you know the twins had a chat with quite a few people did they?

8:25Dodge Woodall: redging money yeah and you know turned a few people and said you're not going to court you know and you know everyone in the case is dead now so it doesn't really you know and that so that happened and then then he got found guilty on the affray you know he got he'd done about 18 months or something like that and then he come out from that and then everyone was like you know I mean my mum met him just shortly after that and my mum said you know I'll give you an example my mum was in a club in Bayswater in West London and I said oh I like that fella over there and the three you know And her mate went, oh, he means the murderer.

9:06Dodge Woodall: Yeah, okay. You know what I mean? Okay, yeah. So that reputation started.

9:12Dodge Woodall: Then obviously, you know, he just evolved from that really, my dad. But he was always a good man. He was always a good man. Was there good things about him? Yeah. A proper man's man. He wasn't a liberty taker.

9:26Joey Pyle Jr: No, okay.

9:27Dodge Woodall: And, you know, it's one of the things he always taught me, you know what I mean? Brought me up. he said you know you don't take liberties with people Joe it was easy to take liberties with people you know you can you know you know when people go out and they rip their mates off it's the easiest thing in the world how easy is it to go and rip your mate off you know what I mean but what does that make you as a man that makes you a dog yeah you know you know today's way you know in the old days there was codes there was ethics and there was you know men stood together maybe it came out from the days in the war where they had nothing.

10:05Dodge Woodall: There was more respect back then, I think. When you've got nothing, what have you got? Yeah. You know, when you've got nothing, what have you got to lose, really, apart from your freedom, which is obviously the most important thing. But when you've got, you know, you're brought up when you've got nothing. Your ties and your bonds are your friends and your family. Not your PlayStation or your motorbike. You know, it's... I don't know.

10:32Joey Pyle Jr: So what age were you when you started seeing your old man grafting, when you were like, you know what, I want a piece of this, I want to get involved in your old dad?

10:41Dodge Woodall: I suppose teenager years. I was into boxing. Dad pushed me into boxing. Mum always wanted me to be a carpenter, a bricklayer, or whatever else. And Dad used to go, he'd find his own way. He'd find his own way. But I wanted to be a boxer. I was a good amateur boxer. And that is in my head. I always wanted to be a professional boxer. And then I motor angst when I was 16, which kite was that. And then basically after that, I got into other little bits and bobs. And especially as well, when I grew up as well, my dad spent a lot of time in prison. So I spent a lot of time visiting different prisons.

11:32Dodge Woodall: up and down the country. And everyone I knew was like, oh, of course, Gullyway. You know, I didn't know judges or, you know. You know, the only straight people I knew were solicitors. Yeah. You know, but everyone was at it. Yeah. Everyone was doing something. So, like, you know, someone come to me and went, Joe, look, can you get me a blank driving license? I knew someone who could get it from me. You know, going to earn myself 30 quid, 40 quid on top. So that's how you start off, really. It's your context.

12:04Joey Pyle Jr: What did that lead into then? It starts there, doesn't it? It leads into more crime, bigger crime, more opportunities. What did it lead into after that?

12:16Dodge Woodall: You evolve, and then I was in prison as well. What age did you first go to prison? I think I was about 20. Okay, four. 21. Funny enough, that was a fraud. Okay. It was a counterfeit money. but it wasn't actually my money, but I took the rap. I'd been arrested quite a few times before that, but I always went not guilty and always, you know, it's funny, you know, I'd be in a magistrate's court and, you know, Ralph Iams, you know, the twins' old solicitor, my dad's solicitor, would send, like, the best lawyers in the country down, you know, you know, I'm Nick for an ad for the puff or something like that, you know, and I'm being represented by a guy who's on£500 an hour or something, you know.

13:00Dodge Woodall: But I always got off. But on this time, my dad was in prison and he had a company with this guy and they were partners. And when my dad went to prison, my dad's wages were being given to my mum every week. And this guy was the head of the company. He had a financial, I can't think of a license now, financial or whatever. Yeah. So if he gets arrested, basically he's losing his license, losing the business. So I meet him. He, a friend of his, had some counterfeit money. He said, Joe, do you know anyone where we can get bloody suitcases and it's the only one? I said, let me have a look here. So the old bills flopped on me.

13:44Dodge Woodall: They was watching me for something else. It was all cobblers. It was the back end of the Brings Mac Turner and they was chasing where the money travel went. So they was in the wrong. They was looking at me for some reason. It was cobblers. Yeah. There was nothing to do with it. You're on a... Your honour. Yeah. No, honestly. I was nothing to do with that, but, you know, some of the people I knew were where things went. And so I've got an observation team on me, I'm being targeted.

14:16Joey Pyle Jr: Did you know at the time? No. Did you sense anything? No. No, okay.

14:20Dodge Woodall: When I got Nick for this, you know, they had nine cars following me. You can spot one car, you can spot nine cars, you know what I mean. So I'm sitting in this car park and the guy's gone to me like where were you where were you in Slough Slough okay yeah and the guy's gone in and he's giving me the dodgy notes so I'm looking at it like crash the wind has come through right bang bang guy's standing there dragging me out onto the floor you know guns like that with me like that this guy's a great big fat guy you know never even had a parking ticket he's being dragged out by old Bill thrown on the floor so I was there what is going on here you know what I mean what is going on here so they've gone over to my car searched my car there's nothing in my car nothing at all just another training bag some boxing gloves and I could see by their faces they were going like you know they was expecting something to be in that they found that so I looked at them like that yeah idiots and then you know so they've gone in his car and they found the counterfeit money so I've gone I went never mind yeah okay you know what I mean and like you know and so I went I hated going guilty and all I hated it was like it was my religion yeah but I put my hands up and they gave me six months for it okay which was a liberty anyway you know it was only when we had actually gone to court I remember the magistrate told him and saying like 300 pounds worth of counterfeit money and there's like 12 Scotland Yard detectives were they all pinkies were they were they 20s or 50s 20s all 20s yeah 20s and I just went away for that.

16:03Dodge Woodall: That was the first time, really. And I was funny that I was banged up with the old man. You got banged up with your dad? Yeah, they put me in Belmarsh. In Belmarsh, I was a cat D prison. Oh, God. What, for that? Yeah, I'm a cat D.

16:17Joey Pyle Jr: They put you in Belmarsh. Yeah. Why? Do you reckon they did that because of the surname? The pile surname?

16:24Dodge Woodall: No, it was a funny story. It was a funny story. First of all, they took me to Brixton Prison. so obviously well I'd just been like through the court you know I was at Kingston Grand Grand Court so they took me to I think they take to Wandsworth now but they took me to Brixton and then we're talking 90s yeah 90 1990 okay 1990 yeah and then and then all of a sudden I'm banged up and it's about half past nine at night I'm on the first day or second day and the door's open Joe you've got a phone call what do you mean I got a phone call you know what I mean like back in then days it didn't open yourself yeah unless death in the family or something something you know so gone down to the office it's the old man and he's in Belmarsh cat A in the unit right so he's like Joey so I'm like he said listen we've all refused to be banged up right I'm here with all the boys right you're coming to Belmarsh tomorrow

17:23Joey Pyle Jr: that's what he said

17:25Dodge Woodall: so I'm like I'm like oh yeah alright dad you know I was talking about going to Ford open neck and I'm going over I'm going over to McDonald's next weekend you know so next thing two days later next morning I'm ghosted out and I'm slunging bellmires and even when I get there the screws going he's got me paper what are you doing here you tell me you know what I mean so so I was I was in the main population I was on house block four and my dad was in the car but they used to take me over to visit him on the weekends. What was he in there for at that time? That was in for conspiracy for supply. Of?

18:07Dodge Woodall: Well, it was a thing called Omnipom. Omnipom? Yeah, it was a set-up, a proper set-up. Go on. They'd done with him. They came, there was a guy owed him some money, a guy called Richard Ledden, absolute dog of a man. Is he still with us today? I don't know. I don't know where he is, you know what I mean? Absolute scummy off. And he went missing two, three years. Then he come back to see me, Dad. And he said, I can get you that money, Joe. So the old man's like, you know, no, it's a lot of money. 20-odd grand or something. And something you just... So the old man, okay, you know, but he's getting in and he's talking.

18:51Dodge Woodall: I've got these friends joking. Do you know somebody who can get me hold of this? and the old man wasn't interested so we had a we had a studio at Pinewood Studios we were a production company had a big office in Pinewood you know we was cracking on this guy kept turning up turning up turning up and he's got mics on him the old Bill buggered him right and he's trying to get a conversation he's trying it all the time you know what I mean all the time non-stop that's what they do here bastards and in the end you know you might go oh I'll see what I can do for you I'll have a chat with someone I'm going to be out.

19:24Dodge Woodall: That he's nicked.

19:25Joey Pyle Jr: Right.

19:25Dodge Woodall: He's gone nicked. That's conspiracy. You know what I mean? Right, okay. Then they'll be clever. What they've done is they sent him in again. Because with conspiracy, you've got to have, first of all, you've got to have an initial meeting talking about it. Then you've got to have what they call fervent. When you want to take it forward. They're the two. So that's what they can get you on that. Yeah. Okay. Me and you could sit here now and talk about killing... Yeah. I don't trust social media. Don't think about it. So I'm not going to let you know. But me and you could both use, He's like, I want to kill him, kill him.

19:54Dodge Woodall: Right, right. It don't matter. But if we have a second meeting.

19:57Joey Pyle Jr: Okay, that's the bit. That's the fervent. Okay.

19:59Dodge Woodall: And that's where the conspiracy is. Okay. So, you know, this guy turns up again. And he's all wired up. Yeah, he's all wired up. Then they wired the offices up as well. And they had 550 odd hours of recordings of me daddy talking in the offices. You know what I mean? It's a lot of conversations. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the only talk of drugs was with this guy. you know it's the only talk of drugs so he's teed him up purely for that and then he got nicked and then you know and they tried to throw something else and then they tried to say you know biggest ever conspiracy to smuggle heroin in the car oh absolutely what they just same thing they've done to me in 2002 which he made a mountain have a moment yeah and And he ended up getting 27 years.

20:53Dodge Woodall: He got 14. 27. He got 14 years for the main conspiracy. And then the other bits and bobs. So he ended up getting a 14. Got it dropped down to a nine on the pill. But they carried him straight away. He was like everywhere he went. You know, when I was in prison, he was in court at the time. And you used to hear the helicopter. That's how I knew he was coming back to the prison. And you'd hear it coming over. Ronnie, you don't. funny Ronnie because Ronnie was in K and when he got out of K he was on his next time with me he was he was two cells away Ronnie Field Ronnie Field yeah I like Ronnie yeah he's done the field yeah he's been on and he was he was two cells away two doors down from me on the fours and he was just saying Joe your dad's coming back because he'd always he had a good time you know but you know but yeah so you know that was a that was a time

21:48Joey Pyle Jr: So you get 27 for conspiracy, or was it 14 for conspiracy and other stuff on top?

21:53Dodge Woodall: Yeah, other stuff.

21:54Joey Pyle Jr: What other stuff was on top? Oh, it was, there was a possession of something, you know what I mean, there was a possession

22:02Dodge Woodall: on something, it all added up, all of it, the salt and the copper, and all stuff like that in total, and you remember, you know, I'm privy to this, I know what's going on, you know I know what's going on and I remember sitting in my cell that night and D.I. Colts who was in head of who was head of the regional crime squad at the time he'd done an interview outside the court he was on LBC or something like that some Vagos states he might not have been LBC but something and then you know he's he told me he said London the streets of London are a safer place today now we have put this major criminal.

22:45Dodge Woodall: I'm like, major criminal? The guy was just, we had a company at Pinewood Studios making movies. Yeah. You know, and you sent a man taped and mic'd in to like, what they call agent provocateur. But there's no defence for agent provocateur in this country. In Scotland, yeah. Okay. America, yeah. But not in the UK. What do you mean by that? Well, basically, a man can, an agent provocateur is a man, in this country, they're like, if I came in, like an agent provocateur is basically a man coming in taped up to creating the crime. In this country, they say, well, you shouldn't have done the crime. Or even talk about it.

23:23Dodge Woodall: Yeah.

23:23Joey Pyle Jr: Okay. But you're saying in Scotland and America, you don't have that?

23:26Dodge Woodall: No, because that man would go, where you was enticed. Okay. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Agent provocateur, like being enticed. There wouldn't have been no crime without this man. Without this guy. Yeah. Okay. It's the same thing as like someone broke into your home. Say someone broke into your home and you eat him over the ebrenamma. you wouldn't get nicked yeah but there would be no you wouldn't be nicked if the man wouldn't have broke the law in the first place yeah it doesn't matter in this country America you shoot the man you get off of it you know other countries it's the same type of thing he introduced it they created the crime but in England is exactly what you just said yeah you should have known better

24:06Joey Pyle Jr: so at that 27 years

24:07Dodge Woodall: how long did he do he got it reduced down to a 9 on a pill yeah and then he was he ended up doing about six and a half years

24:16Joey Pyle Jr: ok and how old have you been roughly at that time on that one er

24:23Dodge Woodall: he said I was still quite a young man to tell the truth I think Mavs had gone now in 70, 80, 90, 24 20, 24 when he got 24 he got put away so when he got put away

24:37Joey Pyle Jr: he's obviously got a big reputation his reputation's growing all the faces the Freddie Foremans and everyone else who you grew up with and whatever did you feel how did you feel at that age at 24 getting to the clubs getting to the bars knowing you're the son of Joey Pyle Senior

24:58Dodge Woodall: well it was it's hard really because I've always been my own man my dad always brought me up that way um there was always a lot of competition with me and the old man uh I was always competing with the old man I wanted the old man to be proud of me okay you know but and so what that brought really was not resentment but uh I want to stand on my own two feet because you can't be proud of me if I'm just hanging on your shirt tells to know what I mean I want to do something you know it's why in my life I've done a lot of things is what me dad wouldn't have dreamed of doing. You know, I was president of a union and stuff like that.

25:42Dodge Woodall: And so I was always that way. I've never in my life ever walked into a club or walked into anywhere and turned around and gone like, do you know what my name is? I've never done that in my life. I wouldn't do it. You know, that'd be embarrassment to what I am as a man. Yeah, yeah.

26:01Dodge Woodall: So it was, you know, when he was put away, it was you know one aisle for me in them days 23 my dad was he was my idol he was I loved that man so much I still do and it broke me but I think the thing what mended me in a little bit was I had to pull my socks up and become a man in the house I had to look after my mum I had to be you know what I mean and a lot of his friends funny came to me you know came to me if they was in a problem or they needed some advice So you learn to be, grow up, if you like, you know, quite fast, you know. And I always had that hanging over my head. He's in enough trouble.

26:45Dodge Woodall: He doesn't need me giving him more trouble, you know what I mean? I want him to do what he's got to do, concentrate on beating the case and know that I'm behind the scenes, not looking at things. That's the wrong way. It makes us sound like some organisation. but acting sensible let's say just being sensible somebody can rely on, somebody can trust somebody can go out of bed and how were you on that 6 and a half year period

27:13Joey Pyle Jr: when he was banged up you were 23, call it up to 30 how would you explain Joey between 23 and 30 years old

27:24Dodge Woodall: me? yeah well I spent a lot of that time visiting

27:31Dodge Woodall: I suppose I just carried on doing my own thing really I was doing my own thing

27:36Joey Pyle Jr: How were you running a pound like that?

27:39Dodge Woodall: Oh bloody hell It's a funny old thing We're just scallywakes Whatever we did We're done You know

27:51Dodge Woodall: There's things you just get into You know It was a time I was getting into Robberies and I was getting drawn closer into that world and you know it's funny Brian Emmett old senior saved me life and he did I'd love to have met Brian he was a lovely man I know Michael yeah he was a lovely man Michael was lovely as well and I just lost young Brian yeah me and young Brian were our best pals were you yeah I was like peas in a pod me and him all the time yeah it was just strange because his dad and my dad for a lot of years. They're tight. Yeah, you know, business partners. Yeah. And, um, but like, um, you know, I remember Brian pulling me up one day and the old man was in the shower.

28:37Joey Pyle Jr: This is Brian Senior now?

28:39Dodge Woodall: Yeah. Okay, yeah. And he told me I had to know, this was a, this was before that and this was anyway. But like, you know, he told me around and went, oh, I need to have a chat with you. So, well, what have I done? So, he went, listen, you've got to turn in what you're doing. We know what you're doing. The old man's not happy about it. So he said, listen, they're shooting people. He said, me and your dad don't want to be turning up at a morgue. And you're laying on there on a slab, toes up, with a bloody ribbon around your toes. You know what I mean? He said, these are ways of getting money. I mean, my brother said that.

29:15Dodge Woodall: I mean, like that. And it made me think, you know. It made me think. But it was funny because I had a couple of guys, and they was planning something quite big and I was doing well on other things. I didn't need the money. You know, I had a brand new RS Turbo. I was getting money out of clubs in the West End and, you know, I had my own flat. I had a girl, I had a little daughter. I was doing well. And by the day doing this robbing, it was about a million pounds. And, you know, I'm involved in it at the beginning. But I don't want to do it. I don't need to do it. You know what I mean? I'm happy.

29:52Dodge Woodall: You know, I'm happy. But I kept thinking about the buzz. I'd better say the buzz. Yeah, I kept thinking about, you know, when I get to hear about it, and they've done it, and they've got away with it, and they're all having to carve up at 200 grand each. And I'm not there. And so I'm thinking that, you know, and I'm like... FOMO. The best. Yeah, so I didn't go on it in the end. Fair enough, they didn't go on it. It didn't happen. It didn't say it didn't happen. But, you know, that's the type of thing, when you're in that world, so for quite a few nights I'm going home and the girl I'm with I'm sitting on the balcony and I'm like that playing over in my head I'm looking at my little one year old daughter and I'm like I'm thinking you alright?

30:40Dodge Woodall: I just need to think and you have to play these things over in your head

30:45Joey Pyle Jr: So when you're playing that over in your head going right I could go and do a major robbery here and you see your one-year-old daughter there and you could have a carve-up of 200 bags each or whatever it may be, if you get away with it. But then knowing everywhere you go with your daughter that someone might be clocking you to nick you one day, how many years would you get for a robbery like that? And how many years would you not see your daughter for?

31:08Dodge Woodall: You're looking at double figures all the time. Double figures, okay. Because you're going on, bud. Okay. So you're looking at 14s minimum. so you know you know in them days you know you'd be doing 9s 10s you know what I mean 10 years you're away and I was young enough you know in your 20s you know what I mean 10 year centres you're young enough I ain't even going to break you but the world and I have got to move on while you're away absolutely yeah so I mean you're going to come out 35 and it's a different world you know all your friends have moved on to different things they're all comfortable they're all this and you come out and unless you've got on this deck, you've got to start again.

31:49Dodge Woodall: And it's hard, you know, most of the guys you knew then, you know, some of them were either dead or some of them were in prison or some of them were giving the game up and going straight. You know, so it's, you know, you have got to think about it and, you know, thankfully I did and I went on to other things. You know, I just went, I said, I don't want to be spending my life in prison. You know, I had a taste of prison. You know what I mean? You know, it didn't break me. You know, prison either crushes someone or you stand strong, you know what I mean? You weren't going to crush me. And I don't mean that in an arrogant way, but, you know, you make the most of it.

32:26Dodge Woodall: You know, when I got into prison, this is the life I'm leading now. It's no good moaning about it. It's no good sitting here crying, you know. I wish I weren't here. Yeah. You're here. Yeah. You know, you're here. Get used to it, you know what I mean? But you ain't going to be here forever. You'll get out one day. so but I just chose to myself you know what's the point of having all these fellas around me if you don't learn from them you know there's no good me echoing or mirroring their lifestyle is it you know I wouldn't want my son to mirror my lifestyle I want him to better yeah than what I've done yeah and the same as what my father wanted yeah but did you

33:04Joey Pyle Jr: was there ever a point in your life if you're around a lot of criminals growing up and you are seeing people get banged up Were you at a point going, I want to get banged up for the reputation?

33:15Dodge Woodall: No, not really. In your younger years? No. I always knew I'd be banged up. Okay. There was a few things I knew. I knew I'd do prison at some time. It was like, you know, when I got prison, it didn't shake me up type of thing. You know what I mean? Because I just knew it's part and parcel of our life. I'd spent all my life, you know, you think, my dad's been in prison. Both my uncles have been in prison. My grandparents have been in prison. My nan's been in prison. My sister was in prison, God bless her soul. My mum was in prison when she was younger. My auntie was in prison. Every single person I know had been in prison in some way.

34:06Dodge Woodall: you know and I just knew it was it was going to happen but what I didn't want to spend years and years in prison but then you've got to if I went out and done something which is going to get me 10, 12 years and I get caught there's no good mongling about it

34:20Joey Pyle Jr: I chose to you know what your consequences are I chose it and I've got to face the consequences is there when you look at all the different crimes you've been involved in do you look do you weigh it up and go hold on if I'm caught with a saw on a job somewhere I know I'm going to get a 14 if I get caught dealing with diamonds or I'll get caught with da-da-da. Are you looking at all the different sentences? He goes, you know, I'd rather get caught for that one because it's a lot less.

34:42Dodge Woodall: It's not as calculated as that. It's not as... But you know in your head. I mean, I've actually said to Bill before, you know what I mean, when I've gone to... What are you nick for? I mean, I've been in prison, fellas. I said, oh, I'll nick for a thing. What did you get? Five years? Yeah, five years. What would you get? Five grand? Break that down a week. You'd have got more money than a dole.

35:00Joey Pyle Jr: Yeah.

35:01Dodge Woodall: What are you doing in there? Do you know what I mean? You've got to go and do ten years. change your life. You know, go and get something, you know, that's why I say to kids now and all those things like that, you know, when last time I was in prison as well, the amount of people in there who were murders and, you know, stabbings and rubbish like that. And, you know, I'm looking at that, oh, that to me would be the biggest nightmare in the world. To have to wake up in that hell hole every single day and walk out and think, I'm in there for the next 10, 12, 14 years or whatever for being a mug.

35:38Dodge Woodall: Yeah. Right? For losing it in a pub Yeah. and sticking someone. Yeah. Right? And just for that and, you know, what I say to people as well, so let me tell you something about prison pills at holiday camps prison. I'll tell you what, I want you to go home tonight and lock yourself in your bathroom for 24 hours. You can't come out of your bathroom for 24 hours. Like, some people might have jacuzzis in there. No, but here, yeah. But a normal bathroom, right? Just, Just do it. Do your head in for one day. Yeah, just lock the door and you can't go out for 24 hours. And think of that, times that by one week, times that by one month, times that by a year.

36:18Dodge Woodall: And you'll get to realize what it's like doing time. Do you know what I mean? You know, when you're stuck in an eight foot by four bloody, six foot bloody cell. Do you know what I mean? You know, it's horrendous. It's absolutely horrendous. two men both going to the toilet in front of each other and you're using the sink to wash every day wash your clothes wash your food wash your face there was one fellow they banged me up with his feet smelt so much it was hard

36:55Dodge Woodall: it was funny because the boys I was in with they were that guy won't last one night with Joe and they was all taking bets on it they said he will not last one Joe will go mental and after about half hour I said to him I'm sitting there get your feet and he looked like that and he looked at him all black so I made him put a bag over his feet and he was an ex army fella quite a big guy you put that bag over your feet he smells like someone's walked in here with a bag of parmesan cheese and just smashed it all around the world. It was making me ill. I was getting claustrophobic and I was sitting up.

37:37Dodge Woodall: I'm going like that, I'm going like that. In the end, he rung the bell and made out. He was having a stroke and they took him to hospital. They moved him out of the cell next time. Self-aligning. He'd never come back, you know what I mean?

37:51Joey Pyle Jr: When your old man came out after six years, how was that for you?

38:01Dodge Woodall: it was a different very different so now you're in your 30s yeah it was very different because I'm I'm a different man to the truth I'm more grown up in my mind I'm I'm my own man you know what I mean there's no one what can I don't mean in a funny way I don't mean that way but I mean I'm my own man I'm having my own judgments and if it was my mistakes, I own it. But when my father went away, he was in his late 50s, middle 50s. And him and his friends, they were a force of nature. Yeah. They were so powerful. You know, when he come out after doing that time, he's still a strong man. But I noticed a shift.

38:56Dodge Woodall: I noticed the difference. I noticed a little bit of a difference in him.

39:05Dodge Woodall: Before, it was hard to get into my dad's company. What, for you or for other people? Other people. Okay. Not because he was standoffish or nothing like that or unapproachable, but the aura was more there. People wouldn't take so many liberties around him.

39:22Joey Pyle Jr: I don't think anyone would take any liberties around him with his firm around him. as well. When you look around you think all the names. What sort of faces of names have you ever wrapped around him all those years?

39:32Dodge Woodall: Oh, he had a good team the old man. He had two firms when he moved down to South London after the war. Yeah. He had a guy called Peter Tilly Peter Marshall Tony Bordazari Jack Yak Yeah. He'd come out to him. That was his little crowd Johnny Reed. And then he had where he was brought up North London his little firm with the Nash Brothers, who were an army himself, very, very respected. So he had two little crowds, and they were all fighting men. They could all hold their arms, all big, strong guys. Weren't bullies, none of them. Then you had Roy Shaw as well, come down. My dad met Roy in prison.

40:20Dodge Woodall: I'm not sure if it was Borstall or his prison when they met. And I remember when Roy got out, me daddy invited him down the two.

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41:33Dodge Woodall: There's a big club down there called Flickers. Neil Brown, Paul. Neil's dead now. But he was then tooting back. And my dad said to his uncle, my uncle Ted, his brother Ted, I went, listen, I've got a fella coming down here. And I'm like, you lot, behave yourself. because if you wind him up and he kicks off no one's going to go no one's going to be out of hand with him they all come down they're all polite you know Roy was a big strong man but the type of guys I remember coming round the house all the time you know they're all forces of nature but when my dad got out I don't know I don't know he used to sit in the pub sometimes and we'd sit in there I'd always go drink with him Friday night we'd have a laugh sing song you know my uncle and all that and he used to you know talk to a lot of people and tell them things you know a lot of stories he used to only tell me a lot of family things and stuff like that to other people and I was a little bit like you know I remember like we was in a pub once and like you know and a guy walked in the door and the old man's sitting in his usual chair at the back always had his usual chair and the guys walked in and the old man's like that and you see him coming oh he's like that and you know and I'm like he'll come over

42:55Dodge Woodall: leave it you know what I mean the old man wouldn't have done that before he got banged up do you know what I mean what would he have done before he would have just sat there you know just sat there I don't know it's a funny vibe maybe I'm explaining it wrong and I don't mean to come over

43:09Joey Pyle Jr: did you think just so I can get clear did you think when he came out he was going right I need to slow down or was he still game when you come out or did you just have a different mindset? Because you're coming out, you've just done six and a half years, you're now in your mid-50s.

43:23Dodge Woodall: When he came out, he was in his mid-60s.

43:25Joey Pyle Jr: Oh, his mid-60s was he? Yeah.

43:27Dodge Woodall: Okay. He was more open and it was half, it was half like a Dad, you ain't got to impress these people. Do you know what I mean? You know, it's just I don't know, it's a strange thing. You know, he was just but he was just a nice fellow with Dad. he was like that you know and you know not standoffish not standoffish to anyone but I don't know whether he lost a bit of security in himself after doing all them years and there were some things going on in his personal life as well which I won't get into yeah but you know all men sometimes can feel a little bit down and seek a little pat on the back from somewhere else where when sometimes they don't really need that pat on the back I mean, I just, you know, looking for that little bit of a lift.

44:21Dodge Woodall: Yeah.

44:22Joey Pyle Jr: You said earlier, if I want to roll back, however long it was, you're talking about you had a club in the West End. Tell me about that.

44:30Dodge Woodall: We had, it was funny when I grew up, and it was, the first job I had was with a guy called Alex Thane. He was a beautiful man, Alex. Absolutely, yeah. One of the most strongest men I've ever known in my life.

44:44Joey Pyle Jr: Physically strong, or mentally?

44:46Dodge Woodall: mentally mentally mentally uh one of villain yeah but every villain loved him yeah right uh he was a war hero no one ever found out until he died that was a mark of the man he kept that secret he won medals in the second world war he was um there was no pettiness about you know every conversation yet there was something it was it was good then he had a heart goal so he had a ticket agency in a ticket agency in in When I was 16, I ended up working for it. We used to, Americans phone up and say, I want to go and see cats. And, you know, I'd fly down to the theatre, buy the tickets and deliver them to the hotel.

45:29Dodge Woodall: And we'd put a premium on top of it and it'd go quit. So we'd done that. And, you know, with Alex. And then when I worked, I forgot your question. The nightclub. I mean, you're in the nightclub world. Oh, yeah. So basically from there, I ended up building a network of doormen across the urges, around all the hotels, you know what I mean? Because they used to get back at hand. In America, a lot of things you can't go to the box office. You used to have to pre-book things. Over here, you can go straight to the box office on a day. So I had a network where he'd done that. So then we started off, then I said, I got involved with all the hostess clubs.

46:10Dodge Woodall: they were like before the strip clubs they host those clubs in the West End and businessmen would come over and like the Ed Dorman and concierge and that would go to I don't want to go to a place where they've got strippers and all that and there'd be businessmen married men they'd go to the place and basically the birds would sit on their lap come buy me a bottle of champagne the bill would come at the end of the end of the year about two grand so you know we call the old bill then you know he wants to get nicked in London in a strip but I was married. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? So, like, it was a scam.

46:43Dodge Woodall: It was a scam. It was a thing. So, like, so I usually get money, you know, and I usually got 5 % or 10%. So I used to go around doing all that. And then, and then that changed to people, like, as we got more known in the West End, like, like, my little team and things like that, people would come to us with, you know, problems. They got a problem in a club. and they'd ask us, like, you know, and we used to get pensions, and we called pensions looking after clubs. Yeah. You know, and some of them, they were the biggest clubs in London. We had quite a lot of them at one time. It weren't protection markets.

47:25Dodge Woodall: You know, people tell a man, they go, they think protection markets. Protection markets are muggy, muggy thing. Yeah. You know.

47:32Joey Pyle Jr: What was the difference between this, what you were doing in protection markets?

47:35Dodge Woodall: Well, protection markets, When I look at protection back, it's a guy going down a local pub or a local thing and like saying, oh, you're in my area, you've got to pay me money. With us, there was none of that. You've got a problem, give us a bell, we'll sort it out. You've got a guy, he owns a good club and they're in a lot of money. It's open six days a week in the centre of Mayfair. And there's a little group of foreign men, let's just say, selling drugs, doing something. yeah causing the right nuisance you know threatening him threatening the door staff and everything else right you can't go to the old bill the old bill half the time ain't interested anyway unless there's a crime now but then he gets known you know what I mean he's arguably known as a grass grassing people up because they might nick two or three of them then the cousins come down and then it's going to go oh no no no no so he's you know their option was to go you know someone to go listen why don't you have a chat with them guys and then we go and have a meet with a guy and say what's the problem nine times out of ten we knew the fellas who were causing the beef and nine times out of ten I might be able to bring them up and go to them like you know let's cut a deal you're not going back in the club but we're sorting something out and you know work a deal out here you know there's another time you know me and Fred was involved in a place Fred Foreman and the fellas went to Fred with it and then Fred phoned me up and then we went and met the people and the little team what was in there was a little handful to tell the truth been terrorised in a few places around London so I changed all the door staff I mean right you're all sacked put all my boys in there there was an absolute bloodbath on the first night we all turned up one of my boys got stabbed and I mean it was like we stopped them coming in the club I mean it's over you're not coming in that more you know what I mean we kept my door team on the thing so that was you know so that was like you know with the clubs that was it you know and then we was always in the West End it was a funny story with I was with Tony Lambrano you know Nick Batchwins Tony used to Tony was if you looked at him he looked gangster

49:49Joey Pyle Jr: yeah

49:50Dodge Woodall: you know all day long he had such a presence about him so I used to we used to go on meetings I used to go Tony come and see that fellow over there you know and he was a boy John you know what do you want me to say just go just go we were sitting we was in 10 rooms once 10 rooms yeah Monday night open mic night fantastic and I was sitting up there Kim Mizell Mark Morrison and we were sitting there they all sound like Tony's walked in we've got a couple of bottles of champagne we're sitting it's about 7 o 'clock at night and my little mate Patrick used to work for me he was a good little grafter I've just been having a chat with all the African cab jocks downstairs It's all the legal cab drivers, you know what I mean?

50:33Dodge Woodall: They've got no licences, but they sit outside these clubs, China White, so it's a set-up order. So there's an owner here, Joe. So I went, what? He said, well, you know, they've earned a lot of money, you know what I mean? They charge me 50 quid to drive from China White to bleed in the Hyde Park. So I've got a lot of, Tony, come here. So I said, what, you speaking to the main man down in Apache? He went, yeah, I mean, Tony, go down and have a chat with that fella. so I said tell him we want a grand a week alright and we leave him alone so I'm like you know you know you say protection but like that they're at it anyway and they're taking the piss out of other people so Tony's gone down and he's gone alright game is anything Tony Tony's gone down and he said I'm sitting there about 10 minutes I'm going like what's happening so he come back up I said how'd you get on him yeah lovely sweet so I said what are they going to give a grand a week better than that give him two quality you know I went I'm lovely so you know there was a lot of fun and games back in them days and then I was doing the clubs me and Dave Dave was involved with me Courtney owning the clubs or the doors no we weren't owning no we were just looking after yeah just we was getting good money

51:48Joey Pyle Jr: yeah

51:49Dodge Woodall: it was good money back in them days what was your

51:52Joey Pyle Jr: relationship like with Courtney

51:55Dodge Woodall: I knew him well he was mad as an hour Dave you know what I mean he was lovable yeah you know I mean you had to you know I wouldn't have went on an arm robbery with him you know he was mad as a mile chair but but but he you know he was good fun to be around and you know when we had a lot of these clubs as well and then Dave was working with us and and then he started going to the front magazine repairs and all that and and you know when I went to see him I said Dave what are you doing mate you know the John Gotti thing you know what I mean Time magazine and all that what are you doing so one by one we're getting phone calls from the clubs you know what I mean the vice squad it used to be the vice squad then they used to run you know basically they were just going to see the clubs and saying you're not going to get when you go renew your licence you're not going to renew your licence so basically I was losing my living because Dave's in the magazine so so there was a little bit of friction there with me and him and he said, ah, I don't know, I mean you know, but when he turned up at a cold dresser's gesture and knocked the culprit out of him Only him

53:06Joey Pyle Jr: Yeah, you know How was it for you in the underworld back then I've had Dave on a couple of times and him and I got on well but how was it for you in the underworld back then when Dave took the sort of underworld to sort of like the limelight

53:25Dodge Woodall: well it changed a lot you know because most of the guys who were in the underworld then weren't really in the underworld you know when you took Frankie Fraser and Charlie Richardson and Tony Labiano and even my father then you know when they weren't at it they were all basically retired so like you know you've got Courtney going in you know saying and it was it was always a party it was always a good night always you know always something going on and, you know, envelope here, envelope there, envelope there. So, you know, I'm sure if anyone was out doing something on a serious scout, you wouldn't be anywhere near Dave Colter.

54:05Dodge Woodall: You'd have to be mad in the edge, you know what I mean? So I think it was like that, you know, books, you know, and then everyone started doing books, you know. There's no money in books, you know, where they get five grand, maybe ten grand advance.

54:19Joey Pyle Jr: Up front, yeah, yeah, yeah. when I chatted to him he was going I was in this world Dave was going I was in this world da da da da and all of a sudden I wanted the limelight and I loved it so in front of magazines I was this I was that I was just having a laugh but he was saying the knock on effect there was a knock on effect of people going what do you think you're doing why are you telling the stories da da da this is all sort of like kept under hat and under wrap for years and years and years

54:42Dodge Woodall: well you know he did bring the limelight to him and he brought you know and then he won't it's the same because there might have been people around him we were doing up to little bits of mischief yeah and obviously you know what i mean you're not fucking at you you know what i mean what are you doing bringing this on me you know when you get you know going anywhere near you and the old bill because he was taking the mickey out of the old bill let's be honest about it he was absolutely right i think it was the first episode of the uh of the front magazine he's absolutely beautiful he laughed at it we had ian tucker yeah he was

55:17Joey Pyle Jr: he's been at my festival for a couple of years him and Marcus Redwood

55:21Dodge Woodall: yeah because I was meant to come down to that when I was Marcus we've got to come down that's right but I think he'd just been on crime watch well he was in number 10 in the number 10 most wanted yeah and Dave Courtney and a photographer from the front magazine has gone to Leicester Square and they've got a couple of coppers posing with him that's right with the hats on they don't put the hats on you know what I mean genius can you imagine the stick the gab I got for that I mean, it's gone back to the station. That's why he's a love cult, them little things, them little mischievous things he used to get up.

55:53Dodge Woodall: How do you think of that? I mean, what makes you think of that? That's brilliant, you know. You know, he's bloody... He was a character, you know. I did like Dave. He was very loyal to me, Dad. Yeah. That's nice to me. You know, and let's get it right. I've seen Dave when he was younger and he was game. Yeah. He was, you know, he weren't shy. of, you know, getting stuck in when he needed to have a round, mate, you know.

56:22Joey Pyle Jr: You mentioned a bit about Freddie Foreman. How would you explain Freddie Foreman?

56:28Dodge Woodall: Oh, he's a good man, Fred. A very good man, Freddie. Very respected man. Strong man, Freddie. He's done it all, really. He was a bit, you know, I look at, you know, my father, Fred and Charlie Richardson, and I look at them three, it's like a, what's the word? I don't want to say idols. Well respected. Yeah, people who I really maybe put on a pedestal. I don't mean put on a pedestal. I mean, what I do, I respect them guys. You know what I mean? They've had hard lives. They've been through some hard times, really hard times, and they come through it. Tried and tested maybe, maybe the word I'm looking for.

57:13Dodge Woodall: as an old saying what we used to say, you know. You know, if a man's tried and tested, and them three have been tried and tested not once, twice, three times, they've been tried and tested a lot of times, you know, and they've kept their mouths shut when they needed to, you know, and stood up and been counted, you know what I mean, when they needed to. But Fred was, you know, he was a different calibre of... What do you say? Criminals to most criminals. Yeah. It was, you know, I'd class him, like I was saying, with my father as well. They weren't, you know, they could mix in a lot of companies.

57:54Dodge Woodall: Yeah. You know, Fred's company, you know, list of companies, he could mix with these people, he could mix with company directors, like the POC, politicians, he could mix with anyone. You know, and there's a lot of villains I know that just mix with villains. Yeah. And I'd put them in another environment. They'd be like, it's not even what day of the week it is. I suppose that way was Fred.

58:20Joey Pyle Jr: Was Fred and your old man good mates?

58:23Dodge Woodall: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, very good mates. Very good mates. And that goes back to his years. That goes back to the pen club murder. Yeah. The guy who got a, I wish Selwyn Cooney, and then it was Ambrose Mendy. Ambrose Mendy Ambrose Mendy no no sorry not Ambrose Billy Ambrose okay I know Ambrose Ambrose

58:46Joey Pyle Jr: has been on here as well

58:47Dodge Woodall: yeah he's got some stories yeah he's a good family he's got his brothers and all that good boys yeah it was Billy Ambrose Billy Ambrose Billy Ambrose got I think he was Billy Ambrose got murdered and Sirwin Cooney got wounded but one of them was on Fred's firm and obviously me dad and with Jimmy who's the Nash firm so when it happened there was a lot of friction there and you know the one who survived you know it was quite is he going to talk this comes from the Nash's side the dad's side is he going to talk you know what I mean this guy's been shot but he ain't dead but the other one's dead is this guy going to be a witness for the old bill so there's a lot of talk there so the twins Reggie and Bonnie were able to meet him and basically he's Fred's mate and it was basically like if he's going to talk we've got a problem we're at odds, haven't we?

59:49Dodge Woodall: And someone's got to be sorted out about that. Fred told me he ain't going to talk he ain't that type of fella who's one of us. But Fred also told me and I ain't been brought here to be threatened either. So it was a touchy, touchy situation. you know and you know from that conversation it was agreed that the survivor would be left alone and then everyone would do what they could in their power to get my dad Jimmy and Johnny Reed off in the end so they all worked together on that and managed to managed to get the not guilty I don't know what happened to the guy who survived but I don't think you know the agreement was on it he was left alone and that was it so that so my dad and Fred go back to them days you know you could say Fred half saved me dad's life yeah

1:00:43Joey Pyle Jr: amazing

1:00:44Dodge Woodall: what about your relationship with Charlie Richardson I love Charlie I love Charlie Charlie was he was such an intelligent man but he never lost the common touch you know he's you know he's you know game as they come Charlie it's very very game you know and he had a wicked sense of you Charlie you know I remember once I was having a row with some fellas when my dad died and basically a few doors this and that and I was there a few old time faces were having a go at me having a go at you yeah why just saying like you know I should be I should be thinking about I'm being too aggressive if you like you know what I mean you know basically like Joe what are you doing you know what I mean being able going to people's front doors and all that you know but they didn't know the whole story behind it you know what I mean there'd been a lot of warnings before a lot of times the term agent I mean I had a meeting with one guy I said look we're at odds here we're on a collision course here you know what I mean because let's have a meeting now well this guy turns up with three bodyguards from the Polish bloody special forces, I turn up on my own.

1:02:04Dodge Woodall: So that shows his intention and my intention when they're doing a restaurant. So basically it escalated, escalated and I had to make a stand.

1:02:15Dodge Woodall: And then I got called in for it by Freddie and a couple of other guys and Joe that you need to calm yourself down and all that. I mean, calm myself. What have I done anymore? And then Charlie, when Charlie got to hear about it, Charlie phoned me up. And then I told him, I said, yeah, i said you know they took a few hundred and took some liberties you know so i just had to send a message back you know what i mean charlie was like good boy joe you know that was charlie yeah i mean good boy good boy yeah let them know you know i mean let them know you're not a monkey you know charlie but um you know very well respected charlie very very well respected when I went to South Africa it's funny because I was out there and what living holiday I went out there for a bit of work with a I was out there for a bit of work with a lady I won't say her name she was she was a lady related to out of stock I say which was out of stock I say and she was running long firms out there so and she's asked me to come out or give her hand explain listener long firm long firm is basically long firm fraud yeah is you start a company up uh you get some you get say your 10 grand so let's say say you say you've got let's just say shoe company you do say you buy some shoes off a manufacturer and then you um and then you get 10 grand's worth of credit yeah you go around you'll probably see but you might have three of them companies might get 10 grand of him in 10 grand we do is you go and sell him the right ground pay him his 10 grand back quick right say he's give you 30 days pay him back in 10 days oh cool that's a good customer yeah and then then your 10 grand gets up and up and up and up and up until the big one and they're all saying you know that 10 grand in a year's time you might be getting 80 grand off it might be 100 grand but it might be 100 grand and then you just and then that's what long folks used to be just building credit up and disappearing so she was running that and then when I went to South Africa a lot of people because Charlie had a a big name and she used to tell people she used to go oh yeah chosen associate of Charlie Richardson and it immediately gave me a lot of kudos straight away yeah I know it's a difference when you're talking you know people straight away but he was you know I miss Charlie Charlie was when my dad died Charlie was in he was actually in the room when my dad passed away there was me Dad Corny was there Charlie was there Ronnie Field was there and I mean Dad took his last breath and he was sitting there Roy Shaw and it was Charlie like when you know I remember sitting there and I was holding his hand like that he bumped me he went and then I got up and then Charlie was the first one come over to me I didn't come here so you know I'm alright Charlie I said I'm alright you know it triggered in my mind I knew he wasn't coming out of there four days previous to that.

1:05:23Dodge Woodall: Yeah, yeah. And I would say, well, but Charlie, you know, I always remember that, you know, he was just as choked as me. Yeah. He was. How did your dad pass? It was a motor neuron. Motor neuron disease. That's an awful disease, isn't it? It's terrible. It's when all your muscle disappear and you... It's horrible, you know, he went from... He went from 18 stone down to about 7, 8 stone in the space of like a year. And you lose your voice, you lose everything in the engine. You know, his hands were like little tiny, you know what I mean? And as you see him, he was so frustrated. He couldn't talk.

1:06:05Dodge Woodall: You know, he's trying to get words out of it, but your focus...

1:06:09Joey Pyle Jr: It goes, doesn't it? But you know your mind's still there? Yeah. Your mind's still bang on it, but you can't speak and you've just deteriorated into a big... it was a big fella deteriorating and with a reputation as well like

1:06:21Dodge Woodall: yeah when he went it was it was my I think it was my birthday it was 2007 he went so it would have been my 40th birthday you know what it mean and um yeah 40th birthday and we had it at the Beauchamp another little pub we used to it was always around nights we'd be trying that area and uh some place yeah lovely yeah every night we used to I've got some funny stories I love that place. And we had a party there for my 40th, and he came out two days after that. It was two weeks after that. He ended up in the hospital, and I knew he wasn't coming out when he went in. It was about three, four days.

1:07:06Dodge Woodall: And I got on the phone. I started ringing people up, and I said, look, if you want to come and say something to him, you won't have another chance. and it was, oh, Jesus, it was within two hours. I'm not kidding you, there was 200 people outside there. There was cars parked on the verges. So I'm literally, I'm having to stand outside, and I'm going to people where I'll take you in the minute, take you in the minute, take you in the minute. And I'm walking people in, I'm going, you can only have five minutes with him. And I'm in there with them, and I'm seeing grown men crying their eyes out, you know, holding his hand and touching his head and kissing him.

1:07:46Dodge Woodall: like that and I'm going alright I'm going to walk them out then come and get someone else in I always remember Roy Shaw when he pulled up and that was the time it choked me up and Roy he couldn't drive anyway he was the worst bloody driver you've met in your life honestly it was terrible and he had this big Bentley big red Bentley and outside the hospice there was a big car park there big car park there and there was a little veranda little grassed front and cut the benches where everyone was standing having a smoke Roy's just pulled up right he's just pulled up everyone's jumped out of the way right he's had to come all the way to Romford yeah the door's gone like that he's opened the car door he hadn't even shut the car door he's jumped out like an edelich where is he where is he like that and I said Roy where is he where is he no I can't I can't see him I can't see him I mean alright alright and I know someone else was waiting to go in next.

1:08:45Dodge Woodall: Well, I don't know. He's like, boy, it's coming. He just, there's no way I'm saying, well, you'll have to wait half hour, you know. So he's right around. So he's gone in and he's walked in. He just absolutely broke down his tears. Yeah, for sure. He just went, you know, fight it, Joe. Fight it. He was screaming, you know what I mean? I went, boy, come here, come here. I went, boy, and I wasn't even, he went, oh, like that. And he told me, no, no, no, he wouldn't have it, you know what I mean? And it's the only time I had tears in my eyes during that time. I mean, it really choked me up. It was choking me up now, thinking about it.

1:09:24Dodge Woodall: You know, and I grabbed hold of Roy, and I went, come here, come here. And then I walked him outside, and there's just standing on the wall. I said, Roy, he ain't coming home, mate. He ain't coming home. and you know he was you know he loved Roy loved my father so much you know so much that was sad and then and then obviously we had the funeral I heard the funeral

1:09:50Joey Pyle Jr: was unreal oh it was mad like the turnout was unreal all faces from whether there was a clash in the past or da da da like the amount of respect of that funeral was on another level

1:09:59Dodge Woodall: well he was he was but funny enough because my dad loved his friends. I remember like my mum when I grew up she was like my mum she said okay you bloody love your friends more than me. Roy loves your family tell them I'm there yeah. So he loved his friends so when he died we had a meeting around the house and there was Roy was there Ronnie Field was there and I said listen later I said I want to make this funeral for his friends. I want this funeral to be for his friends he loved his friend I think I put it on his tombstone he was a great friend I think I put father friend second or something I put it quite put it behind his wife which in front of his wife which didn't give me any brownie points you know what I mean I should have been first you know what I mean well you was fifth you know but not me mum yeah yeah but then so that's what I said I said, right, so we're going to be all three friends.

1:11:08Dodge Woodall: Anyone who wants to come can come. Where was it? It was in Morden. Morden. Yeah, where he lived. I mean, it was about 5 ,000, 6 ,000 people turned up. I just told that thought, like the amount of respect

1:11:21Joey Pyle Jr: your old man had for 5 ,000, 6 ,000 people turned up just to say they were there that day and show their respect. That's unheard of.

1:11:28Dodge Woodall: It was like a working class hero. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, some of the things that happened on that day, I remember we was driving to, just before we got in the cemetery, all the old bill was standing there because they shut all the traffic. They closed all the pubs, the old bill in the area on that day. So none of the pubs were allowed to stay open. And we had the outlaw bikers. I had, you know, about 20 of them motorbikes, like making sure when the procession's going, they're stopping the traffic. Okay. So we could all stay together. I think I paid for 24 limozyns I paid for but I always remember as we were driving there was a copper standing like that and as we did coffee and went past the copper went did he?

1:12:13Dodge Woodall: come on he's done a saloon he's done me and it's a funny thing because he was the old bill with a you know I hate the old bill the old man ate the old bill and the old bill ate us but but I think they got respect that you know we you know never been dogs never been animals you know what I mean and you know there's a class of people around at the moment where a lot of moles a lot of principals have gone but going back to the funeral the funeral was it was it was it was there that day you can remember oh geez there weren't there every face you can think of actually had two two ceremonies because, like, we're all Catholics.

1:13:01Dodge Woodall: So when Father Brian, I phoned Father Brian up when he was in the hospice who'd come up and done his last rites, and then he was the one I was discussing. I said, I want it in our local church, Sensoreas Church, Catholic Church. So we can't play music in there because it's a Catholic church. So when the old man being the old man, you left a CD with his songs because he wanted it playing. So I got to play him. so I'm like you know we're not having music we're not having pop music in the church you know in the Catholic church we've got a full communion there yeah right Wilf Pine he got up and done a fantastic theology Clive Black I read one but I was too choked up I couldn't get up and say it's a very good friend of mine Clive Clive Black got up and spoke and done my words for me a few other people got up and then we went to the ceremony where the where the burial was.

1:13:55Dodge Woodall: Yeah. And then we went in there and then we got in there and that's when we played the music, you know, for me dad and a couple of other people got up and spoke. And the songs he wanted, he asked, but he played, was Sin or a Saint by Sarah Vaughan. Yeah. Sin or a Saint. That was as we walked in. And then he wanted The Living Years, Mike and the Mechanics. Yeah. And the other one was The Impossible Dream, sung by Luther Vandross. Oh, nice. And, you know, and I actually put that on his, I couldn't, it's a long song, the words of comfort, all of it, but I actually put some of the lyrics on his gravestone.

1:14:31Dodge Woodall: I'll have a look at those lyrics later tonight. Beautiful words. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely beautiful words, you know. You know, to walk where the brave dare not tread, you know, the brave dare not go, you know, it's an amazing, amazing song. And it's funny because we actually done a tribute for my father. He put it on YouTube. He said about, 500 ,000 people. And in the background is actually that, song plan impossible dream yeah and I can't watch it without getting choked I can't watch it alright you know I can feel the old things coming out but no it was something special but there was a lot of love there and I think Dave Courtney said he told me when I was interviewing Dave and Dave told me and he said I've been to a lot of villains funerals so called villains funerals he said when people sometimes go there for a picture yeah or go there to be seen and he said this is the first one I've been with everyone generally gutted.

1:15:27Dodge Woodall: You know, it's the first one, you know, people are here because they, you know, not because everyone wants the place to be. Yeah. They're being here to show their respect to Prince David. I don't mean, I'm not taking away from other people or nothing like that, but just saying what Dave said, which, you know, which I think was Prince David. Why do you think, why do you think Dave didn't want a funeral? Do you know, I don't know. I've been told by certain close people that he didn't want to insult certain people. There'd be an army of people who want to carry coffee and he wouldn't want to choose.

1:16:17Dodge Woodall: Something like that, I don't know. I don't know what we must mean. He must have been in a very, very bad place. Any man who does that. Any man who does that. I wouldn't have the bottle to do that. There have been times I want to die, but I wouldn't have the bottle to do that.

1:16:37Joey Pyle Jr: He was in pain. Proper pain. I remember he came on the broadcast. It wasn't too long before that happened. I could see the difference in just a year when he first came on to the circuit. I could notice certain things. and the last time he come on, it was him and Colton Leach come on together.

1:16:56Dodge Woodall: Yeah.

1:16:58Joey Pyle Jr: And he made like a, he made a sort of passing, he made it, you know, he made everything funny. Do you know what I mean? He's a very funny man. He's good to be around. He's a good laugh and he'll take the piss out of everything and whatever you say. But I remember he said something, I don't want to be an old man where people are coming in to me going, Mr. Courtney, and he's sipping out of a cup with a straw. And it just, I remember when he said it straight away, it sort of jolted me.

1:17:22Dodge Woodall: Do you know, it's a funny thing you say that because it's exactly, he said something very similar to me. Okay. And in hindsight, I didn't get it at the time. I didn't really get it at the time. But in hindsight, the way he said it and I remember, I said, because Dave used to ring me up, you know, just out of the blue, like, how are you going, Joe, just checking in. Yeah. He used to go, just checking in, see if you're alright. And I used to go, yeah, I'm good, Dave, I'm good. When are you coming to see me? I was like, oh, and you know when you come to see me can't get you out bloody camera come here and I'm like and then and then he was talking I went to him I said how are you feeling and he went and I said and he went oh bloody hell you know I said no it ain't no fun is it mate getting old is it you know just a passing comment and his words he went I hate it yeah but now I think the way he said that yeah he meant it yeah I hate it I hate it you know what I mean when he actually said it I said just Dave I hate that yeah we can't remember there's the same number of things right now so he must have been you know

1:18:26Joey Pyle Jr: i was in pain i'll tell you what i don't know brendan his best mate that's an amazing episode yeah that's well worth listening to because brendan has got funny stories that he's passing on from dave and it was a it was a funny hour and a half of him yeah i've known brendan for years

1:18:46Dodge Woodall: I mean when you know when they first got nicked over that with the jesters thing and all that and you know it was all there and it was funny because when you got nicked and they all come out of Waterloo there was a pub at Waterloo Station and there was about a hundred people what's that called the water hole or something or the hole in the wall it was a fire is it the fire it was an old fire station pub yeah and so I've turned up and Brendan was there and everyone's there and Dave's being released and all of a sudden I'm sitting on my own like that Dave's all told me I was in it's a bad scene everyone's in their party you know Brendan's standing there like that I go cheer up Joe everyone's having a laugh I went it's a bad scene what he's Nick for I said he ain't coming out whatever way he comes out it ain't going to be good I said I mean there's going to be smoke you know what I mean and I sat Dave down I said what are you doing what on earth are you doing mate I said you know working this undercover old build like that and everything I'm setting him up I'm going to be the first person getting undercover old build life I went you can't make a lot of enemies that man you know what you want to get into boxing Dave was a scatty like that I said nah mate I said, why are you listening to a bad scene, mate?

1:20:17Dodge Woodall: I wouldn't want to be involved in it. You know what I mean? What went on? It was a dude when that copper set him up and he was setting the copper up and back forward and then they started calling David Rungan for it, you know what I mean, and stuff like that. I don't know too much about the ins and outs of it because I tell you what it does. Unless I'm involved in something, I don't want to know the mechanics of everything. You know, it's nice to mark my card what's going on, but I don't want to know everything about it, you know what I mean? and that way came, yeah. So I knew they were soon, you know, you know, a lot of fellas years ago used to have a crooked old bill in their pocket.

1:20:53Dodge Woodall: You know, but, you know, old bill, you know, little things, give you an heads up. You know, look, if you're being targeted, a lot of times the regional crime squad or serious crime squad, they'll have their, when they finish watching you for the day, they'll go back to the local police station to debrief. Yeah. so local police station heads up yeah they'll get just heads up you know it's on you so it was a little bitch but like you know but this cop he was a bit more hands on with Dave you know there was a bit more hands on you know and money wise and stuff like that it weren't a piece of me it definitely weren't a piece of me you know I was just out the whole bit I was going look you know look you're on that side of the fence I'm on this side I want to drink with you.

1:21:45Dodge Woodall: I don't want to be your friend. I don't want you to be my friend. You know what I mean? That's it. I said, if I see you in a pub, I might go like that, all right? I said, that's it. You stay over there and I'll stay over here. So I used to be, I didn't trust them. But, you know, going back to Brendan, he's always been a laugh, Brendan. Funny. Mate, the story's probably cracked me up. He's done me up once.

1:22:08Joey Pyle Jr: The Wendy House story, have you heard that one? No. Oh, mate, if you get a moment, have a look at Brendan's episode. I don't know what number episode it is. Cady, could you have a look at what Brendan's episode is? Because I'd be interested to put it out there, but probably funny.

1:22:20Dodge Woodall: He turned me up once and I'm sitting there right now.

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1:23:27Dodge Woodall: I was sitting there with a girl, and it's like about 8, 9 o 'clock at night and FaceTime. And I'm sitting there, we're watching a movie, on the couch, watching a movie. so I've got like do I want to push this button or not you know I push the button like that and the bird's sitting here and I'm sitting there and it's him like that Joe where are you so I'm like I'm indoors watching the film he went you want to be here mate and he's got like there's two birds on the pole naked I'm literally I'm like I'm like did you see that you know what I mean You're never going over that house again. What have you done to me?

1:24:13Dodge Woodall: What have you done to me? It was funny.

1:24:17Joey Pyle Jr: How would you explain the reputation? Who had the biggest rep around London in the 80s and 90s with the Richardson, the Crays, everyone else involved? Who else was there? The Ariffs, the Adams. There was lots of reputations floating around, wasn't there? Some big reputations. The 80s was there.

1:24:36Dodge Woodall: the 80s was a bloody madhouse yeah I always say there's a lot of firms I know I've probably known worked with or you know every firm in London used to go clubs years ago bootleggers used to go bootleggers years ago you know you'd have the page three birds all in there you'd have the A team would be over there you'd have the Rileys over there you'd have the you know Fraser's over this side And the Riley's as well, they had a massive rep as well, didn't they? Yeah, no, they used to. I mean, you all knew each other. You all knew each other. You all give a nod. And I remember when I first came out of prison, I went for my first night out, I went down to Rava's, down to the Angel, which was Terry's Club down there.

1:25:25Dodge Woodall: But we were, you know, people always said to me, you know, these guys run London, this guy run London, that guy run London, all that. when you're in your firm of fellas, and you're a team of fellas, right, right, you're not going to back down from anyone. You know what I mean? If someone's got tools, you've got tools, they've got tools. You know what I mean? Right, right. You know. And, you know, you're not going to intimidate it by it. I mean, you don't have a row with people, obviously, because you know you haven't rowed with people and I was earning any money. You know what I mean? It's the worst thing in the world when you're having a row with serious people.

1:26:03Dodge Woodall: no one's earning money you ain't sleeping at night you're getting up in the morning you've got to move your family out of the house and you're sitting there and you're driving about all day long tooled up to the eyeballs you're either going to get nicked or you're going to get shot and you never see an end to it and there's nothing else on your mind when you know there's a car load of fellas coming to shoot you and you're out trying you've got to find them before they find you it could be Christmas next week you're not thinking of Christmas mate you're not thinking of nothing it's horrible it's a horrible horrible horrible thing you know and so like you know I used to always say a mug's more dangerous you know if one of my firms was out and they had a row with a mug I'd be more worried about a mug than him having a row with another face because there was another face we could have a phone call and have a sit down and sort it out sort it out but a mug we ain't got to sort it out I don't know what I mean but it was like you know there was a lot of firms you all get their ear about what got on you know what I mean in them days it was like you know you know if a firm topped a guy you knew everyone knew everyone knew about it if you're in that in that world you know what I mean you know you knew who's topped who's done this and who's done that and who's done that so you all had a bit of respect for each other you know you all had a bit of respect and you know if I was out and one of my fellas who's with me is becoming a bit of an arsehole I'd rein him in you know what I mean maybe one of the other firms would be like I was out one day and one of my boys was performing and there was only two of us there three of us and there was another firm I won't say his name because the dad's still alive but there was about ten handed and my mates he thinks he doesn't really know this firm but he thinks he's with me so he's got a licence to do what he wants to do and he's caused a bit of a schmuzzle and the owners come over to me and go like Joe you know it's going to go off so I'm sitting there with my mate I said right and they're looking over I said right see this table I said right I said in a minute they come over throw the table up I said I'll chin him you chin him I said then we'll get out the door we'll chin the two biggest ones and I hope the little ones will stand back and then we'll have it on our toes you know so like but in the end the fella he's a son of one of the his dad the son come over to me and me and him walked away we ended up walking in the toilet instead of the toilet and you know and we sold out we didn't come out and drink with each other but we sold out there was no violence so like you know it's funny it was funny like in them days you know there was a lot of that going on but it was funny as well because the guy I had with me in that case he told me and he went he went listen you and Jimmy me shoot off.

1:28:57Dodge Woodall: So I said, what are you going to do? So he went, well, I'll leave in a minute. He said, take me down to petrol station. He said, I went, yeah. So he went, he said, give me a can of petrol. He said, I'll come back and I'll burn them all. So I said, how are you thinking in that case? You know what I mean? I said, shut up, you know what I mean? You think you are bloody Terminator or something, can I mean? But he was a funny son, he was in another club once and it was in Shepherd's Market. They squatted in this club, big club. Everyone used to turn up there and young Frank was in there. Frank Frank?

1:29:42Dodge Woodall: Frank Fraser. He was in there and Bobby Dixon, a couple of others. And Johnny's saying he's dead now, John. And I've walked in, I've got to shake Frank's hand. I've got to, hello Frank, how it suited about it, tight. Look, that's Lister. I said, hello, Frank, can you go? So Frank's going to look at me. I put his left hand down. He shook me around like that. I said, all right. I took about two steps. I said, all right. Bob. I said, I said, what are you doing? Take my hand like that. I said, I come over, shake my hand like a man. Get out of my chair. Take the effort. I walk over and say hello to your respect.

1:30:18Dodge Woodall: And you shake my hand like I'm sounding like a little kid. He goes, oh, sorry. Bobby Dixie looked at me. I said, I don't know. so I went alright so we've gone just go back to that fellow I'm with so they know so we've gone but I went alright so he's gone and said that and all of a sudden they sent some drinks around and they went to my mate and they went to him they said do you want a drink you went no I'm not here to drink so they've gone you know what do you mean not here to drink I'm not here to drink I'm just here to old Joe's coats and weapons that's all you know

1:30:52Dodge Woodall: bloody you know You used to get these characters mad. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. You know, he didn't have no weapons, but he was just playing. He thought that's what he's watched. There's too many films. Do you know what I mean?

1:31:04Joey Pyle Jr: Our game, when you look back, our game was Frankie Fraser. Old Frankie? Yeah. Oh, double game. Yeah, I'd say.

1:31:13Dodge Woodall: Yeah, it wouldn't back down for no one. I'd say. You know, you had a problem with Frank. Not physical. Fisticuffs. Do you know what I mean? The man was, you know, he's five feet young, small, small fella. But he'd stab you and he'd shoot you. You know, but I know loads of people in London right now. He's famous for it because he'd done so much time in prison.

1:31:36Joey Pyle Jr: Yeah.

1:31:37Dodge Woodall: You know, I know, he's an old fella made running fire, come out of Bozil, come out of Sutton that way. Ron was a lunatic. An absolute lunatic. He ended up running the door. He was doing some door work at the Asta Club back in the 60s. killed Terry Miles, stabbed Terry Miles, stoned dead. You know, his best mate. My dad's best mate, poor Terry. And then he ended up, he got, well, he ended up having arson. Yeah. Putting his food in Brixton Prison. They said it was a suicide. But he was a nutcase, you know. There was a lot of men like that, you know. But he was a tool merchant, Frankie. Okay. You know what I mean?

1:32:20Dodge Woodall: A tool merchant. He'd shoot you. He wouldn't know. Oh, yeah, he'd shoot you. No hesitation at all. And I'm very, very quick to go, boom, and let you have it. Yeah. So, but, fisticuffs, no. You know, I haven't heard many times of Frank eating anyone in the gym. Yeah. Stabbing people, yeah. Plenty of times, mate.

1:32:43Joey Pyle Jr: Has there ever been a time, Joey, when something's come on top so much that you thought, oh, no, this is proper trouble for you personally? they yeah a few times mate yeah a few times i can't talk too much about it but there's been

1:33:00Dodge Woodall: times like you know again exactly well i've just touched on a little bit there once i won't tell you the story behind it but uh but uh it was that was quite serious and you know my dad was dead so you know it was basically me it was a few years after that and it was a funny thing really you know it was a funny thing how can I explain it really I was doing the right thing with someone something happened between someone else and something else and in the end properties got took and then the guy phoned me up and I said listen mate I said look spoke to the people they ain't got a problem look what properties got took what things got took right they didn't mean to take yours so whatever you had there you've got to come back they'll come back and they went ah it's good of you I went yeah I'll make sure I'll talk to you about the people so they ain't got a problem with you they had a problem with the other mug ripped them off and then also but I spoke to them you know they can't come back till Monday morning in lockdown alright fine so ring them up Monday they'll come back they'll come back about an hour later get a phone call we were thinking about it what are you thinking no we're not waiting till Monday we want it tonight I told you I told you it can't happen till Monday morning yeah well that ain't good enough I said well I tell you what now you can go F yourself you're getting nothing now I said who do you think you're talking to I said I've been completely straight with you before I said now you're going to be able to talk to me like a little boy no so then that escalates that escalates and they all sound you know and that was hard you know that was hard you know I had to move the family out you know the kids I mean my kids loved it because I moved them out of this big house in Epsom you know you know this great big bloody mansion out there what come on top then

1:34:53Joey Pyle Jr: for you of wanting to take the kids out and the family out well

1:34:58Dodge Woodall: people know where I lived yeah so I can't be out taking care of business and doing what I've got to do while my weakness is at home is at home yeah and I don't want to be out and I get a phone call we've got your wife or we've got your kids or we've got something like that that's game over isn't it you know what I mean what are you going to do you know you're basically walking back and you could be walking into a sloot house you know what I mean so it's game over so that you know to take care of that you've got to get them somewhere safe and you know but then like I said you're waking up in the mornings you're not thinking of nothing else nothing else you know what I mean friends what you got round you were involved in it as well some of them were like headless chickens and you had to them look calm down and they go calm down mate do you know what I mean calm down you know what I mean they ain't gonna do nothing you know what I mean you know you keep wanting to talk keep doing these keep doing these things you know they'll make their move and see you know what I mean and uh but you know it's not fun but it's funny though sometimes when you look back at it though and uh and you look back at it in times and you think yourself because you're so funny on that edge yeah Jesus I was living there what year were we talking here uh 2010 11 oh okay about that time and then you know there's been things as well when the old man was nicked uh when he was nicked a couple of other bits of business and stuff like that I remember when you know basically the people were saying to me Joe I've got to take care of it and I remember you know I remember saying physically I mean you know I can't actually say where it was but I remember saying in my head I'm too young for this you know I'm too young to be making this decision you know 21, 22 and I'm making decisions where people's lives were in my hand and everyone's looking at me like me and some of my dad's mates they don't want to make the decision they don't want to make that decision and so it's but someone's got to make that bloody decision and it fell down to me to step forward you know and I'm too young for this I'm too young to make it to decide in the fate not talking about murders not talking about that when I'm saying I've got someone's life in my head someone's liberty in my head I might get nicked and put away for 20 years or something like that you know or something like that and I'm having to try and protect that I'm having to hold make sure that don't happen try and find a way that that don't happen and I'm not experienced enough I ain't lived a lot of years to make you know to actually to have that wisdom you know when you're young you're a rash man and you know and you know I made rash decisions when I was young but you but you're having to kick yourself and think I can't be rash I've got to try and think it through I've got to think it through think it through same thing when I was talking about like that robbery you know i mean you know you know you've got to think it through that deep that deep i want

1:38:12Joey Pyle Jr: to go back to the one of the sort of 2010 when you had to move out your house into epsom are you waking up going for a leak in the morning first thing spinning mind spinning you get a bed mind spinning there's the phone going you're thinking they're on me they're on me what what emotions you actually going through knowing you've got a missus and a family as well to protect it's all

1:38:30Dodge Woodall: you don't sleep you know you are sleeping but it's like literally when you're when you're going to sleep you're playing out things in your head you're playing out how am I going to make this end and the next day you know you've got meetings and you've got meetings people here meetings there and you're playing how am I going to make this end and you're playing out horse and all the rest you've got no you've got no appetite you know you're basically you're out of bed at five o 'clock in the morning, you're in the car, you're going to meet your mates who you're involved with, with it, and you're going like, and then also, oh, then they'd say, oh, someone was knocking at this house last night, that might be a postman.

1:39:09Dodge Woodall: No, no, it was someone else, do you know what I mean? Yeah. And all of a sudden, you're all pricked up, oh, there was someone knocking, you know, and then someone heard you getting on the phone, oh, someone said there was a couple of carloads of fellas looking at this house, or looking around there, it's every day, it's a constant pressure, it's a constant pressure and then you've got people around you you know who who can't haven't got the patience or the mental strength to go like that they're like let's just go and shoot let's just go and do this let's just go and do it I'm like I'm all getting nicked I'm like I'd all spend 25 years in prison yeah I mean calm down I like you calm down we'll work this out you know there's got to be a way of finding someone's solution out you know and you know it's tough it's a horrible life and you know when I say to people people say oh yeah glamorous you know a lunar life in crime or in that in that thing glamorous it might be because you go to a pub and you might get people coming over to you and want to talk to you but on the other side of the thing the prison kind of prison having fights with people you know what I mean I mean when you're in our world you've got nowhere to run to you can't go to the old bill it's against your religion I'll drive and get shot kill me it's done dead before I go to the old bill and say to the old bill please help me I'm being someone wants to kill me it just doesn't come into it you know I couldn't pass that on to my children I couldn't I would I know you're saying it's funny but I'd rather end up being shot or doing 25 years in prison where my kids can turn around and say my father was a stand up guy yeah then my kids turn around and go my dad was a rat you know what I mean he was a rat he was a dog got all him at his neck you know what I mean you know so it goes deep that side of it so you've got nowhere to run to you've got nowhere to run to nowhere to hide you've just got a face you've got to work it out in your own head and some people you know it is it's hard it's not fun no I'm sure

1:41:20Joey Pyle Jr: I'm sure you're listening to it when your old man passed in 2007 and this happened in 2010, did you feel like your reputation had weakened now your old man wasn't about?

1:41:33Dodge Woodall: No, actually the opposite? The opposite. Because I had to become

1:41:43Joey Pyle Jr: Code of the Family Name.

1:41:46Dodge Woodall: One of the things a lot of people was going over. It's just crazy. A lot of people don't think this mafia rubbish and stuff like that. There was, oh, he's head of the family now. You know what I mean? Like my brother Mitch, and I mean, he tells everybody when he goes, Joe's the head of the family. If you want to talk to us about a bit of business, you've got to talk to Joe. Joe's the head of the family. I don't mean that in a villain way, but it means, you know. Yeah, in a pecking order. Yeah, pecking order. And so I think I didn't have much time to

1:42:18Dodge Woodall: sit back and go on holiday or nothing like that. I just had to literally just from the funeral take things over and start running things you know what I mean and then people started coming to me and you know and if you make good judgement you start trusting your judgement if you make bad judgements then that's when you start getting insecurities but when you you know when you're doing things and you feel confident that you you know I'm the best teacher in the world in fact you know in that world you know you couldn't have got a better teacher watching him for experience and stuff like that. And he was very, you know, and I studied my dad in a lot of ways.

1:43:00Dodge Woodall: I was always, you know, a lot of the times, when I was especially young, I used to sit there and just, you know, listen to his son's places and sit there and shut up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Take it all in balls.

1:43:12Joey Pyle Jr: Yeah. Absolutely. How long did that last for until you could sort that problem out, that 2010 problem? That was a good month. A month. Good month, yeah. A month probably felt like six months, a year.

1:43:27Dodge Woodall: It got sorted out. No one got shot. It got sorted out in the end. You just come to an understanding that this is either going to go one way. It's going to go one way. You're not going to give in, we're not going to give in. So we either just walk our separate ways and that's it. you know and it just basically fizzled out kind of little things here and there little little things but basically just you know but I knew it would do anyway most of the times from my experience is like a lot of things a lot of if you put enough time between things simmer down yeah you know what I mean it's your first 24 hours 48 hours first week everything's heated yeah you know what I mean you can get past that first week two weeks three weeks four weeks then things start simmering down a bit, you know.

1:44:21Dodge Woodall: I've seen a lot of people, oh, kill that guy, kill that guy. You know, I'll definitely kill him one day. I'll definitely, when they say kill him, you know, don't mean kill him. But then over the years, Mello, and then they just, you know, can they be bothered to go and plot up in someone's front garden and wrap them up and put them in the boot of a car? Yeah. They just, it don't happen, you know what I mean? It's more just getting over that hurdle, getting over that hurdle, let things just calm down. And you think about it,

1:44:46Joey Pyle Jr: all this stuff all comes back from the majority of a pound note of people who are doing money. Yeah. The majority of this, all this stuff going on. 99%. 99, yeah. So when you look back and see what your old man done, what have been your best earners? Is it debt collecting as the middle man?

1:45:09Dodge Woodall: Debt collecting. We've had some good results on debt collecting. We had a few large weeks for that. I got 100 grand out of Suge Knight once. I had to fly up to a death row record. Did you? Yeah. What, over here? Oh, you went over America? New York? I went over to Los Angeles. LA? Yeah, visited him in prison, in Sacramento prison. And he had done a licensing deal with some fella in Wembley, and the fella owed him a million pounds in London. So he reached out to a guy called Ori Espado, who's with the Colombo family in Los Angeles, Ori. just had a book called The Mob Boss or Hollywood and then because we're in London he reached out to us me and my dad and the colour boys we went to see the fella I mean you've got to pay the money mate you know what I mean you took a little bit you've got to pay the money so he's wired the million pound over or a million dollars or whatever you know a week later two weeks or whatever it was wired the money back to Shoe Knight so we're on 10 % so there we can't we can't get our 10 % Shoe Knight don't pay no one does it you know what i mean so like so they'll measure i think you better jump on a plane joe i mean oh yeah cheers to that and that was it i was over there and uh we got 100 grand out of him cut it up with oi and that was a good little whack you know i mean good little uh things and um but no you've been some good owners and i straight money tell the truth about more money straight than i have been to tell the truth property i've always been involved in property still involved in property now yeah you know you've got a calm life today yeah it's it's well it's like construction yeah so they're not going to put me in prison for it but you know you still get the you know you still get clients you've got to please and you fellas don't turn into work and you know and then you've got to go and look at the work what they've done and is it up to scratch and she's still got all that but you know you ain't got no one standing behind a tree gonna put one in the back of your head just because you pissed their wall up you know what i mean but but you know i suppose that with it um the union could have been that could have been different that could have been something special if we had done that if that would have you know when it did created the union for the security guards.

1:47:38Dodge Woodall: We were the only union in the country. And we ended up security using, I called it FEDS, the Federation of Employees, Door Start of Security. Quality. And we had all the jackets, you know, like the FBI, the facts on the back of it. And I got invited to join the TUC, join them. So I got invited to give a speech in the House of Lords. That was a nightmare. And SIA, they was just beginning now. They've always taught him, didn't they? Yeah, they invited me onto their board. Well, they invited the Vice President, Joey Corbett, who was Charlie, Charlie Craze, my own man. He was working around the union.

1:48:24Dodge Woodall: And invited him because they were scared of us. But it just got cocked up and we ended up in an insurance company because we was offering out of the subs who was offering people if they broke their hand or they broke their arm they get a payout and stuff like that in the ninth dorm and every dorm every week every one can't work you know what I mean so like instead of running a union you know when guys are on the phone you know and I just said I said at the beginning because you had a committee you know everything had to be voted in you had a committee and I was against it anyway I said I know what's going to happen now I said you're going to have everyone play that's it you know I mean getting up to everything and then and then we had a lot of things you know then they asked me it stepped out as president because they said but you'll be an honorary lifetime honorary family we think your name is a hindrance to the union I created the bloody union do you know what I mean the union's me no one's more passionate about the union than me you know what I mean how's your hindrance you know but people were saying that was the same thing because we was contacting other security companies we've got about 100 200 people yeah saying like listen sign your boys up throughout four quid a week three quid a week uh we'll give you a knock back you sign your 300 boys up you know i'm gonna pay for your office yeah place for your office at the end of the year didn't it that you're a little kickback you know i mean but then also again oh jay paul's in my room but yeah so it's right okay and then people are saying to him well you know if you get them boys involved in your company you'll never get and I'm at your company, do you know what I mean?

1:50:01Dodge Woodall: Which is all cobblers, but you see how people talk, you know what I mean? I've always been straight with people, never been a liberty taker. So that ended up with putting... Did you ever...

1:50:13Joey Pyle Jr: Did you express your feelings, everything, to your old man before he passed? Was there anything you held back that you'd like to have said to him?

1:50:23Dodge Woodall: Yeah, well, he was funny, me and the old man. He was... He was... he wasn't a very tactile person with me, with me, with me, with me, with me, with me, with me, with me, I think it, I think it was one time I said to him, I said, I said, I don't think, I remember saying to him, I said, when have you ever said well done? Never. I mean, I must have been about 40, no, no, because I mean, that time I was 39, but quite old. I said, you never said well done? See, all the bloody things of British boxing promoter, you know, the youngest ever boxing bar from Wembley and he went he said nah he said because I didn't want you to feel content I wanted you to keep going

1:51:06Joey Pyle Jr: deep down I guess you look back and think all I wanted was give me a pat on the back and say well done son that kind of thing but maybe that's the lesson dads teach us don't want to give us you know that sort of extra boost where we keep going let me see where you get to

1:51:20Dodge Woodall: you know I think they were different back in the old days they were less you know but then I see some of me some of me friends dance and stuff like that you know they were very huggy you know my old man was probably yeah I mean I mean one of my dance mates you know with him and his sons when they used to say she like to kiss each other on the lips what's that all about

1:51:47Joey Pyle Jr: that's what I grew up with

1:51:49Dodge Woodall: yeah you know

1:51:49Joey Pyle Jr: mate you're like you know what having this chat here about you and your old man have a if you've got a spare hour or so, I've got my old man on the podcast and the comments are unreal.

1:51:59Dodge Woodall: I'll have to have a look at it. Have a look at it, you'll love it, yeah.

1:52:01Joey Pyle Jr: Proper, he's a proper fella. The comments, you know when you see the comments about the relationship with you and your old man, he's 72, do you know what I mean? But being able to sit down and have a conversation on the podcast with your old man, I now know, because everyone's got photos, but when you're having a, you've got someone's voice, and that's why I've created a vulnerable life for them, honestly, Joe, just because like the old school gangsters fizzling out very quickly and it's important that we get people telling stories on here like you're telling stories everyone else i've had on the podcast just telling their stories because then that's for their kids and their grandkids you know there's too many people could end up being brown bread they kind of there's a few

1:52:41Dodge Woodall: rumors about them and then that's it well do you know the funny like with with why i've done my book as well about the unlicensed of boxing and why you know with a podcast I think myself with so many stories especially nowadays as well there's stories about my grandparents and that I'd love to have known that you know I sit there and I was trying to work out the other day my granddad had five brothers I couldn't remember his other brother one of the brothers names you know his granddad was a twin his twin brother was Joe you know so he named me dad after and that but that side which you lose yeah you know you lose and especially today with kids as well sitting there all day long in their bedroom you want them to see what's going on

1:53:26Joey Pyle Jr: yeah like when i'm chatting to my old man like my great-granddad had a boozer in east london my granddad off license outside upton park my old man run boozers everywhere then he was in the casino world with my mum i took over i was in the nightclub world for 10 years now i'm in the festival world for the last 20 years and actually when you look back every one of us are putting smiles on people's faces and bringing people together yeah all via all via like entertainment booze partying and dancing you look back you think my god you don't realize until you actually stop

1:53:57Dodge Woodall: and have a conversation with your old man or so you'd unless you unless you had that conversation

1:54:01Joey Pyle Jr: you'd never think that you wouldn't know yeah so you wouldn't know and only it was only in 2020 when i started this podcast i didn't have a clue what podcasting was i went you know what it made me stop and look back and reflect the first time because as an entrepreneur you're constantly go what's the next thing what's the next thing what's the next thing you know i like that with things

1:54:17Dodge Woodall: and i'm always i'm always looking at something and you know i mean going same just maybe like when you said that off license in the east end to the truth but i'd lenny mclean yeah right give me a famous joe i've got a good deal with you i said come and see me he's got his off license in his pub called the Govners right in the east then just on Cambridge 8 right so he I said how much you want for you nothing you can have it you can give me salt every week we took it every week it's in the middle of a bloody Muslim estate no one person drinks you know you pull up with a can of lager down there you get so thrown at you I was like, oh, that didn't last, you know.

1:55:08Dodge Woodall: And that was funny. We had some laughs in there.

1:55:12Joey Pyle Jr: Is there any faces that you know, you know we always talk about a lot of underworld on ex-criminals, gangsters, whatever, whatever, whatever. Is there anyone out there now, because the people I look at and speak to have all been banged up, they've all been caught. Are there faces out there now who have never been caught and are living a really good life?

1:55:34Dodge Woodall: Yeah. Yeah, but I can't say. No, I'm the same.

1:55:37Joey Pyle Jr: No, I'm the same. Because they ain't been caught. Absolutely. And I think those ones who ain't been caught and have still done 20, 30, 40 years without getting caught, they're the real deal.

1:55:51Dodge Woodall: Mainly, I'll say, with the villains that they're politicians. Say that again. Politicians. Oh, okay, yeah, yeah. Yeah, the crooks, you know, lawyers. Mate, they're all crooks, mate. Yeah, all them people. you know you're getting people like councillors they're crooks they're blatantly crooks you know I think so anyway yeah then I see something the other week they bloody one of the councillors where they give 22 million pound to renovate a market and they put a bit of scaffold and painted the signs where's that money gone yeah yeah

1:56:27Joey Pyle Jr: let's not go there because this will be another two hour podcast on politics but I sit here now and I don't look at politics. I definitely don't speak about politics and religion on a podcast. I don't want to get involved.

1:56:39Dodge Woodall: Do you know what it's funny with my mum? She used to say to me, she used to go, Joe, if you want to be a crook, be a cover. Because they've got a licence to do it good and proper. Yeah, whatever they want. Yeah, and that's what my mum used to say. But, yeah, there's some successful people out there, mate.

1:56:55Joey Pyle Jr: Yeah. Good luck to them. All of you, if they're watching that, they know where they are. Fair play to them. That's off. Joe, I've absolutely loved this, mate.

1:57:02Dodge Woodall: Yeah, no, it's been a pleasure. Yeah, it's been a pleasure, mate. Really enjoyed it.

1:57:07Joey Pyle Jr: Thank you for your honesty.

1:57:08Dodge Woodall: You're right, but I didn't say nothing too bad.

1:57:10Joey Pyle Jr: No, not at all. Put me away. No, no, no. It was a really nice conversation. I really appreciate you making the effort. And regarding your daughter's podcast, I'll help her out. No problem at all.

1:57:19Dodge Woodall: Yeah, she's just getting started. She's a tattoo artist, I tell her, too. Okay. She's very... Creative. Creative. And then she got into her podcast and she's done about five or six. But she's keen on it. She enjoys it. So if anyone wants to give her a follow, that'd be great.

1:57:41Joey Pyle Jr: Where can they follow her?

1:57:43Dodge Woodall: She's got a YouTube channel and Instagram as well. Honeymile. Yeah, I think she called it she changed the name Behind the Scenes. She's invited me on.

1:57:56Joey Pyle Jr: I'll definitely come on and help her out on that. That'd be beautiful. Yeah, my pleasure, mate. Mate, you're a gentleman. Okay. Good man. I enjoyed it, mate. Yeah, mate, I thoroughly enjoyed that as well. Probably enjoyed that. Good man. Nice one. Cheers, Joey. If you'd like to see someone on the show, leave a comment below. And if you haven't already, do us a favour, show us a bit of love, press the subscribe button, and it allows us to grow the show even bigger and bigger each week. Nice one.

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