#335. - Lewis Moody EXCLUSIVE - England World Cup Winner Fighting Motor Neurone Disease

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0:58And you normalize pressure. People kept talking to me when I got diagnosed with M &D about sort of bucket lists. I was like, I don't need a bucket list. Like I've done a lot of enjoyment. Like I will continue to do a lot of enjoyment. I'll continue to do a lot of living. How would you explain motor neurone disease? Kills your motor neurones, which eventually, you know, kills your muscles. So your muscles gradually waste away. I choose to do more of the things that I love. I don't know how long I'll get to do that for. I'm trying to process it all. We're trying to work through it. But I know it's going to be okay.

1:27I know it's going to be okay. I know it's going to be hard. And this is the difficult thing, right? It's like, I'm going to lose you one day. I don't want that. Yeah. Every minute of this, I absolutely loved. I could go another two or three hours doing this. Are you going to cry again? No. I'm not. Here you are. Are you? Yeah.

1:53Welcome to the Eventful Lives podcast. I'm your host, Dodge, and I'm the founder of Bournemouth 7s. the world's largest sport and music festival. On this podcast, I speak to proper characters of all lived eventful lives. Do us a favour and hit that follow button and be sure to check us out on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook and TikTok at Dodge Woodall, where we've now had over 100 million views. Lewis, welcome to the show, mate. Lovely to see you. Yeah, that was a professional introduction. Thank you. Your voice was much more sort of elevated. So I want to roll all the way back. What was it like being the first ever England rugby player to be sent off at Twickenham for fighting the biggest ever rugby player to play rugby from Samoa.

2:34The biggest ever rugby player to play rugby from Samoa. That is the best introduction to Alex Tuolangi. We're talking a long time ago now. Oh, you were. 2005. 2005, yeah. So I played for 15 years, Lesser, Bath, England, Lions, you know, across some of the most successful teams, which I was privileged and lucky to be a part of timing all that type of jazz and you'd think that after a star-studded career like that you put like a highlights reel into uh you know into into google or whatever and into a search engine that you know Lewis Moody highlights reel it would come up with you know decent number of tries sidesteps big hits I love chasing you know smashing a few people that was the thing I loved about a game is physicality but literally the first thing that comes up is that fucking fight with Alex like one fight I got sent off once in my entire career and uh yeah it always makes for interesting viewing but I suppose if you're you know if we're talking honestly about it because we share anecdotes about the game right from when we've played and one of the things I think that's happened now is we've got older and the other lads have played with we've got older and we've shared all the silly stories and we're you know there's a sort of recognition that we really loved what we did and i i love having a laugh with with the people that i've got to do it with but actually sort of you try and be more honest now with the truth and actually it's quite hard to be honest and remember the detail because you've told so many stories you've heard so many different versions of it actually um but it may i was i was gutted i was actually mortified after that you know as entertaining as it was um for others you know so basically i became the first englishman in a hundred roughly a hundred years to be sent off at twickelum the first oh yeah and um i was just i couldn't believe it also i couldn't believe at the time that i got sent off because you know rugby was in a different place in 05 but that year they literally just started clamping down on sort of the violence you know the violence is in the collisions now isn't it and the physicality but obviously back then the violence was in the skullduggery.

4:51And I just stuck up for my mate. Kuwait's got taken out in the air, landed on his head. Alex ran over. Alex was a teammate from Leicester, so it was a bit awkward.

5:01It's one of those where you lose... It wasn't the first time, but it was the only time I properly lost my head in a game of rugby. And I think I threw roughly 30 punches. I don't know if any of them landed. Because I looked at Alex afterwards. if you look at him, there's a butt scratch on him, he looks perfect I don't regret it but from a professional point of view and being a better team mate I disadvantaged my team by doing what I did so I do look back on it with frustration professionally because I should have known better at that stage being on lines towards being to World Cups and all that sort of stuff but sometimes you have I don't know how you are or what triggers you but one of the things that triggers me is around fairness or protection as well like if it's your mates and you feel like someone's judas'd them or they've been unfairly or harshly treated then you sort of want to step in and protect and that's all I actually generally wanted to do is step in and stop either of them scrapping because I knew Quates and he's a fighter and Alex is just massive he's not even necessarily a fighter he's just massive so if he chooses to fight Quates is going to get pumped.

6:17Absolutely. And there's a great clip after it. If you do put it into Google, the fight kicks off. It's like a 30-man brawl, essentially. And it all breaks up in this melee. I was probably the heaviest I'd ever been at that point. So I was massive. I look very different to how I look now. But Alex, who's enormous, like 19 stone, is just these shoulders walking off with a number 11. And then you see Quates edge into the photo, the screen at the bottom and he starts following him like he's going to confront him and then Alex does a slight turn and Quates obviously receives sense and just like panics and goes fuck it and walks off in the other direction I love those two guys, they're qualities to play with, they're both absolute competitors very different individuals but that definitely bought out that trigger, that sort of protective nature and I went in to separate and to look after and try not you know generally tried and stop anything happening and then Alex you know popped quates on the on the chin and that was it head went I had 330 punches and we both got sent off and then had to turn up at training at Leicester on uh on Monday and then explain to Cockers uh why we weren't going to be playing for six weeks yeah that went down well but you are very different to being on the field off the field with a surname like Moody people think I was mad he's Moody's he's a madman on the field which you are and you were known for that and people loved you for that but off the field you are such a different human being.

7:46You've still got those qualities of looking after people and respect and love and all that, but off the field you're the kindest, nicest human being that anyone could ever want to meet. Yeah, I mean, that's kind, thank you. That's the nicest thing you've ever said, in the 20 odd years that we've known each other. So I couldn't enter the rugby field as I am, you know, this laid back, sort of relaxed. so if I talk yeah my mantra is kind and too you need to be tough right so so when I entered the the world of rugby as an 18 year old as a professional for first contract left school three months out of school played my first game for Leicester um you know playing with all my schoolboy heroes I was terrified and but you can't enter that world with you know it was a tough world you know you would fight in training you would fight for everything every single minute of the day to prove that you were worthy to be starting at the weekend you know it was a competitive environment as you well know you know not just you know in the change rooms in the canteen on the strength and conditioning field you know on the pitch it's just just everywhere it was a great environment to grow up in but it but it taught you to behave in a certain way but you can't turn up and you know as the relaxed individual and expect to succeed you have to bring a different version of yourself and and I think rugby sport maybe allows you to bring that out in a more extreme way you know so I could plug into a side of my personality I was quite excitable yeah you might listen to me now and I think I'm quite relaxed and I don't know tempered toned down but we all have that sort of inner warrior that inner beast and it's just I was afforded the opportunity through sport to release it and amplify it because when I amplified it it was beneficial to the team you know so that sort of overly competitive highly driven um hugely energetic supportive combative teammate could be as angry excited um committed you as I wanted to be and and that was fucking brilliant but equally you can't be that human being in real life you know so you i think with all sports when i watch lots of different ones or in business as well i mean you know about this i'm not a businessman you know i've operated around business people so but you can't be the same individual that you are as a ceo in the office you know handling challenges i don't believe that you can be at home with the kids chilling out or with the missus.

10:31I think there's always an element and sport is more, sport brings out the more extreme version of it, I think. But there's always an element of you that is wearing, wearing a mask sounds like the wrong way of putting it because I don't think it was a mask for me. For me, it was just a, it was amplifying certain parts of my personality and really focusing on them. You know, everyone talks about neurodiversity and in our O3 squad or in any of the squads I played in, there was so much neurodiversity. But that was our superpower, right? And you just plugged into the bit of it. When neurodiversity wasn't a word, you didn't even realise you were doing it.

11:09You were just plugging into a bit of it and amplifying it. And, yeah. I want to know, like, you're such a team player, but when you were a young kid, 18, and you were there for, what, 14 years, 16 years, 14 years at Leicester Tigers before you went to Bath, how selfish did you have to be for that number seven shirt or six shirt whatever you're wearing at Leicester like you're going in training lifting heavyweights smashing people for fun going through everything you needed that shirt every week yeah how selfish did you personally have to be to make sure that was that you you had that on your back each week I don't think I was to start I don't think I sort of appreciated how hard it was going to be you know I came from And public school, you know, it was most of the Leicester lads that I joined with were working class sort of grammar school or state school lads.

12:00Hard as nails. Yeah, hard as fuck. I used to hate those training sessions. I just fought contact. You know, that's why you didn't make it. Because I fucking love them. I used to love them. I used to hate them. What day was it? It was like a Tuesday or Wednesday. Whenever defence was, which could have been a Tuesday or Wednesday, normally Wednesday. And they brought like the Academy and twos against that. and it was just full on legalised violence for like hours. I was like, mate, this ain't fun. It was fucking brilliant. I loved it. I still miss those sessions now, right? Like when it progressed or when you first come in and you start, you know, you are maybe shocked or surprised by it because, you know, you're a schoolboy or you're a university.

12:37It's not like that, isn't it? You know, and I think when you're thrown into it, it's one of those moments in your life where you realise you're either going to sink or swim. and and i suppose for me i just fucking i loved it i love the physical beast that rugby is and i love the fact that you got to you know properly you know in what walk of life other than you know maybe rugby and boxing think of you know nfl something like that bare knuckle okay yeah yeah would you get to properly physically you know test yourself against another human being one-on-one multiple times and multiple different human beings.

13:13Mate, for me, that was a buzz. I loved it because everything was a competition. How do I better him in this little battle here? How do I then get on top of him in that one there? Yeah, I loved it. And training was the breeding ground for the energy and the success we had at the weekend because ultimately, when we did it enough, we were playing against. we had such quality players anyway but the the second team or whoever wasn't starting the weekend would you know fight for their place yeah so so Wednesdays those Wednesday sessions was you know it was awful if you were starting because you knew the guys they were so much of a kill you you know because they they were they would push you as hard as they physically could do to make sure that you were prepped and ready for the game of the weekend and that would normally end in a fight and and to be honest by the end of you know there was a there was a the heyday was sort of 98 to 2002 I suppose where we had four years I'm you know unbeaten at home um was it four years four years I'm being at home yeah four years and we lost to Northampton in 2000 so we went 98 to 2000 and I think it was 2003 by the time we lost but it was it was just I don't know the exact yeah yeah four years and something uh we had four back-to-back titles we did two European back-to-back titles in that in that time we had an LV cup um we'd obviously won we would go on to win the World Cup the following year we had a grand slam during that time with England so as a young man you talk about what it was like it was scary to go into that but to recognise that you enjoyed it it wasn't it's not like now and I see the squad and I see the young people coming in and it's exciting and I love it but they seem very confident but I'm sure there are plenty of lads in there that would be quiet maybe more reflective and considered when they decide to stick their head above the parapet and ask a question.

15:08And then, you know, because those times were, yeah, for me, I was a shy kid, so I would not. A shy? Shy kid, yeah. I wouldn't stick my head above the parapet. I was shy until I was comfortable in the environment and then I could be myself. Otherwise, I would sort of keep all my energy and thinking repressed until I was comfortable. When did you know, as an 18-year-old kid, straight out of private school, Oakham, when did you know that you were... Good plug for Oakham, by the way. Yeah, good plug for Oakham. Great school. Bloody great kids. Great school. I was on the phone. Dosser gave me a bell the other day.

15:42He's a good man. I love Dosser. Yeah. He's got your back. Yeah, he does, mate. He's a lovely man. He always drops me a message. You know, that's the lovely thing about relationships, isn't it? In some way, you connect with some teacher at school. and for me it was Dosser so he was a sports master also a maths teacher I know you probably had a similar experience at university he was our coach at Loughborough that's right yeah well so for me at school it was a young lad that hated you know the academic process I was just not built for it you know here you go we're going to tell you a load of stuff you remember it and then you just repeat it I was like I can't but anyway so and I struggled you know there were certain parts of school that I struggled with a lot of it that I loved but as a shy kid, certain parts of it were tricky.

16:29But Dosser came in and he just really focused on the things that I enjoyed in the game and that was about the people and the relationship. And he's the next back row Leicester Tigers player. Yeah. He just ticks all the boxes. Yeah. And he's so passionate, isn't he? I remember the first game I ever played for Leicester. So it was weeks after I left school and all of a sudden you're playing Rory, Andrew, Dean Richards, all these gods that I'd grown up watching, Martin Johnson, Neil Beck. and uh i was absolutely shitting myself in the change ring and and dean dean pulled this like forwards huddling dean richards and he was going around just checking in on people and he was like right let's just go through the back row calls lewis will you just go through the back row calls i was like i actually don't think i uttered a word i just went and then he quickly realized that i have fucking no idea what the back row calls were i'd only been there a month yeah and i think for me that was a realisation I just thought I could turn up and use my talent to deliver and thankfully on the day I played well and made up for the fact that I didn't know any of the calls but I can't remember what was going on when did you know like when you're at Leicester like when did you know that people were around you going this kid he's mad he's mad he's smashing everyone he's tackling everything he's like a dog with a slipper let him go when did when when did sort of trigger you to go do you know what I'm actually better than I thought I was yeah I don't know I think as a as a like as a rugby player I've always had massive inner belief in my in myself like I think I've always believed I was capable of doing it you know there are times during a journey where you form dips and what have you but you know 14 was probably the first age that I thought do you know what I really want to do this properly what say again when say 14 dad took me to watch I went the first game ever to work in Wales, we annihilated them.

18:17Paul Thorburn, who was a great kicker, he kicked some wonderful kicks, but he retired after that because Wales were so diabolical. And I remember after that game, Dad asking me if I enjoyed it and did I want to come back? And I said, I absolutely loved it. And I do want to come back, but I'm not going to come back until I'm playing. Yeah, I can remember it clear as day in my head. And then, you know, what drive that put in me to go back and try and improve fitness and try and increase standards. But it was at 14 that I recognised that it was what I wanted to do and that I felt I was good enough.

18:50Is that because you were bigger, stronger, faster? Because you were quick, you've got long limbs. There must have been something that... I want to know the bit of the Lester when you really knew that you had something special. Can you remember that? Well, that I knew. That you knew personally. You stepped up from school rugby, which is a good standard, where kids are quick and all of a sudden you're going into Richard Cockrell Garforth Martin Johnson Neil Back the list goes on of tough men that you've actually could handle your own because you were still you weren't a big lump of a man at the age no I was like 14 stone yeah that's what I mean the first camera plate it was 14 stone like a fucking stick and then and then when you got sent off against Samoa you must have gone up to like 16 16 and a half stone I was the happiest I'd ever been yeah that was 17 and a bit probably was it 17 and a bit Yeah, it was just too heavy for me because I couldn't then.

19:43Move as quick. Speed was my thing. I wasn't particularly like evasive. You know, say like a lot of the back row boys now, you look at Ben, oh, fucking he's bouncing around. And, you know, Henry Pollock, you know, I wasn't like that, but I was quick, really fit and hardworking. And then so for me, actually keeping weight on was really difficult. Yeah. How did you get to that weight? Just training. Give an example. You've been trained lifting, but you've got some serious calories. what four or five thousand plus you're a professional aren't you mate i i couldn't tell you i mean i know they went i we went to five meals a day at one stage to you know they were like we want you to come back as big as possible as strong as possible as quick as possible i'm all over that i'd be great that'd be great and uh five meals a day i was like yeah happy days but actually when you've got when you've got to eat five meals a day you've got to be really meticulous with your planning which is not me i am not fucking meticulously planned as you all know and but I enjoyed I enjoyed the process of you know bulking up and looking bigger and getting into all that sort of jazz but I I preferred being a lighter weight yeah I preferred getting around more I could be more of a nuisance look the only thing you know as we're talking rugby but my real skill was that I was a I was a fucking irritation and a nuisance to the opposition you know I was I was skillful but I wasn't skillful it was a lot of the lads that played far fewer games than me i just wanted to play more than them and i was prepared to do more to to achieve it um there were plenty that were you know gazillion times more talented they really were um and you said when did i know i did honestly i don't think i ever knew there wasn't like a moment in time you go yeah i should i deserve to be here okay i when i turned up at Leicester I immediately knew I was good enough it didn't mean that that would continue yeah but just the the way that the environment that you're put into it's like well you you either just crack on with it or you don't and and that was easy for me like I'm a doer I just I'm happy to follow for those first few years right point me in the right direction Moodle's chase that ball I'm after it go tackle those fuckers over there got it just simple instructions like Wellesie So John Wells was...

21:56He was hard as nails when he was Welsing. He was hard. And he never got capped by England. He should have done. But he was relentless. He was the type of bloke when rucking existed, which was when you could move people off the ball with your feet. He'd just lie on the ball all day and he'd be shredded to pieces. He'd be happy as Larry. He'd done his job. He'd sorted the team out. But he used to come up to me before every game for a good period of time and just give me one thing to focus on. And that was gold. Everyone's different. but for me like really simple clear focus going into a game was all I needed because you know you've done all the preparation around everything else so if you've got one clear focus you're just focusing on one thing the other stuff will sort of come together yeah unconsciously take care of itself so you're not trying to worry about doing different things and line out calls and it's just one thing what is it do that really well and the rest will take care of it and he was really good at doing that what was that one thing it would change from week to week you know so let's say specific to the opposition that we were playing against.

22:54Or it would be specific to something I was working on in the game, like speed to jackal, so get over the ball and try and nick it for your team. Height of your tackle. Height of your tackle? Yeah, so you're doing a chop tackle where you're going low and you're stopping them in their tracks, or you're going high and you're trying to make a dominant collision and put your team on the front foot. More involvements, more ball involvements, so link you with the back. I mean, the list was endless and it would change or it would come back to the same thing. But having someone that was prepared or knew you enough to go, that's what you need.

23:28And then at a certain point you go, shit, actually, you didn't do that this week. I need you to tell me. Yeah, so, I mean, coming back to all your things, there wasn't, you don't suddenly go, yeah, I'm ready for this. But your confidence must be growing as you're going because I saw your confidence grow over the years. Yeah, of course. Whose shirt were you trying to take? How many shirts were there you were trying to take every week? You know what? I've got to take him out in training and I'm going to do whatever I can. Who was it? Guzzi? Mate, everyone. There were so many back rowers. Like England are in under.

24:01Name some back rowers at Leicester at the time. Adam Balding, Paul Gustard. When I first showed up, John Wells, Neil Back, Dean Richards, a guy called Oscar Wingham. Martin Corrie came in. This is really fucking testing my memory. and then over the years so Adam Balding Peter Short Will Johnson Paul Gustard we mentioned him yeah Will Skinner really talented Tom Croft he was a good player yeah and then guys from abroad Josh Kronfeld Shane Jennings Ben Woods who was a younger English player it was relentless like it was never I always think teams are successful due to competition yeah competition for places everything as much as you hate it like i would love to have had a career where um you know you were guaranteed to start week in week out but i don't remember well people may have thought that was the case but i don't remember ever feeling that i was going to start guaranteed week in week out what a great attitude to have knowing that every week you're fighting for that shirt whether you are the best player or not you know that people are coming after you have you ever been dropped yeah and what was that feeling like that's fucking horrible isn't that it's like yeah i mean we had with england it was uh you know whenever you got dropped the the intent was that you would then go and uh you know congratulate the person that took your place fucking that that was hard uh it came easier to some than others and in all fairness like the first time i experienced that i was was the first time so you talked about what shirt did i want nil back shirt i saw myself as a seven although it's probably more of a six really i always thought I would get picked ahead of Backey for England before Leicester just because of you know all the the old heads the familiarity Backey being there so long and he was awesome he was awesome but I was a different version of him I suppose and when I did get picked I got that first call in 2002 so the autumn of 2002 got picked ahead of him so it was me, Hilly and Lawrence starting against the All Blacks in that autumn campaign and you know that was terrifying yeah but But he was the first person.

26:10He actually came up and told me before I even knew that the team had been selected and that I was playing. And for Bakke, who is the ultimate competitor, I mean, really like the ultimate competitor, would do anything legal within his means to make sure he was starting. You can laugh about this, but this is a good... This sort of sums Bakke up for me. You come into a meeting, you're never late because, you know, no one wants to be the person that walks in through the door late and gets a barrage of abuse. And so everyone's always there a good few minutes before, all you're queuing outside. Backy turned up late to this meeting and he was a senior player at that time, late 30s, maybe mid to late 30s.

26:56And the coach was just like, you're late. Why are you late? He's like, I'm not late. He's like, you are late. He's like, no, I'm not, prove it. And then just walked off and sat down. that was his like his competitive nature meant that he he just had a reluctance to accept anything or especially when he was put under under pressure um but so for him for someone that i knew was so highly driven that i don't believe ever got dropped in his career until that point okay that was that was big for him to come and say that to me so um yeah being so when when did i get dropped um got dropped by Leicester and numerous occasions going into big games um I found yeah I found it I found it hard because I was I was a competitor I like to think though I always brought the best of myself to training no matter how you know pissed off I was about not playing or whatever that I hope I didn't let that be visible on the training ground because, you know, no one needs that.

28:01No one needs, you know, energy sappers on a training pitch. So no matter how pissed off you are, you turn up, you front up and you do the job for the team because you know, you know, when it's shoes on the other foot, they'll do the same. On that point there, you'd mentioned that the back row there was you, Delaglio and Richard Hill against New Zealand at Twickenham. Yeah. Just tell me what that feeling is like. The night before you'll be able to play the All Blacks at Twickenham and also the feeling... I want to know what goes through your mind when you wake up in the morning, the night before your routine.

28:36What do you do? What do you do in the morning? What's it like leading up to it? When do the nerves kick in? Just about before kick-off, you're thinking, I'm pumped for this. You're thinking, don't do anything stupid, don't get sent off, just hunt the ball. I want to know the emotion of everything.

28:52You're asking me to go back a very long time. I suppose I was always really nervous pre-games, especially when you first started. I mean, everything you'd gone through, the fear of fucking up, basically. Is that the biggest fear, is it? I think so. For me, especially when they're people that you admire, respect, and you know are good at their job. And you come into a team, which I did in sort of 0-1 with England, when we were really on the rise. So they'd had back-to-back Grand Slam opportunities, which they'd lost um i played in one of them my first game for for england um outside of america was in the six nations against ireland which was that rescheduled foot and mouth game which we should have won but we lost um and from that moment on you know the team i entered we i don't we never really lost you know so you know the the mind plays tricks on you the whole time doesn't it it's there to try and derail you.

29:52But equally, once you're aware of that, you can find ways of dealing with it, which I did. And like anything, once you crossed that white line onto the pitch, it was easy. You're in your comfort zone. Everything outside of that, in the hotel, we were chatting to some of the lads the other day and we were just talking about the drive from wherever you were into the training ground. And going through the gates of Pennyhill was always the most anxiety-inducing experience ever. And it still was when I went back last week. And I was just going for fun. Yeah, I was like, God, this feels... But I remember back in the day, I'd go, mate, you're like smashing everyone in training.

30:30You're playing for England. I remember you got to a point where I was like, are you getting excited to go to England camp? And there was times you were saying, I'm not getting excited to go down to Pennyhill now. Why was that? I think because it was uncomfortable. and when you're in it I don't think you appreciate you know it's difficult because we look back at things with the rose tinted glasses don't we so um you know retrospectively I can look back and really appreciate the reason that I enjoyed my career was that you know I was in an environment that meant you felt uncomfortable and I felt uncomfortable because you were constantly under scrutiny you had to deliver or you you know you'd likely not be playing so there was always this pressure to perform and consistently and then you add to that the expectations around the standards you know making sure you're in the right kit you know you're not late for meetings um you know you've got all the knowledge and the information you need you know in case you're questioned just during you know you still have these massive manuals that you'd have to read i was like okay I can't remember anything.

31:36I remember me and Julian White and Danny Grucock used to have recap meetings where you'd go away, we'd get a load of chairs and we'd do the line-out drills. Because in a line-out, as one individual, you've got probably, I don't know, let's say 20 different calls to know. And then if you're on a bench covering three different positions, you've then got 60 different calls to know. And you could come in on any one of those positions at any one time and you need to know them off the drop of a hat, under pressure in front of 8 ,000 people, when you can barely hear the fucking call. So, yeah, all of that stuff just drove anxiety levels.

32:09And it's hard enough to remember your club calls. And back then you were sort of bouncing between club and England week to week. You know, now they get them for, you know, for extended periods. But I talk about, you know, you talk about not enjoying going down. When I look back now, there were definitely times that the anxiety, the pressure, the stress was consuming and uncomfortable. and when you're at your club you felt more comfortable because you're around your mates and maybe there was less pressure because you you know you were more settled when you come to england whatever camp you went to you had to perform to to be starting there was another way around it and um and it was uncomfortable but it was also exciting you know with you recognize that you know with great success comes you know huge disappointment failure um and and failure and success are just totally entwined in sport you know from week to week from session to session and and it becomes the norm and and you normalize pressure um and sometimes you know let's say i don't know if you have i had a lot of injuries what i have 14 injuries 14 operations had lots more injuries but 14 major operations during that time you know dealt with ulcerative colitis which is bowel disease whilst playing you know and had steroids and all sorts of things you know basically change your clothes to get anywhere in case you shit yourself um you know you you deal with it with a lot as as a sports person or as anyone in a life but apply it under the pressure of the microscope that sport bring you um you know sometimes that could that could get a little bit too much which is maybe what i was referring to at that time but when i look back now retrospectively i massively appreciate like the discomfort and how the discomfort benefited me because i never played my best when i was relaxed and sure of my place i i played my best when i was under pressure to the wall yeah yeah it's funny isn't it yeah but it's like it's getting to that point where you need to be happy being uncomfortable yeah and if you're happy being uncomfortable that's a powerful place to be and and when you're doing something you love like sport or you're doing business or you're building a brand yeah it's easy because it's what you love so therefore you normalize the pressure so it's like okay i'm used to this this is the norm yeah but try something new all of a sudden that pressure feels uncomfortable because it's not the thing that comes naturally to you i don't know that's a public speaking or you know doing a presentation or i don't know i know you mean yeah yeah so all of a sudden that's where but people say to me, God, you're under so much pressure with Borma Sevens Festival.

34:46It's like, yeah, it's just the norm to me. Yeah. I've been at 19 years. I know there's financial pressures everywhere because so many moving parts. Yeah. But it's the norm to me. I get a buzz from that. Anyone looking in going, how much, that's crazy. You're risking all that money up front hoping that people are going to turn up for those three days a year. Yeah. You know, but the buzz that comes off the back of it is driven by that pressure. You know, and you know, because you know, you know how hard you have to work to achieve that. And so I think sometimes, you know, when we get it wrong is we reflect on, like, let's say for a minute you stopped and looked at, you know, Bournemouth 7 is year one, year two, year three, and just looked at the end result when, you know, it'd been a great event, best part of the year.

35:25You don't shed a load of cash that you were happy, you know, Fleur was happy. yeah you know if you just reflect on the end result it's really easy to um lose track and drop your standards and all those types of things because you forget how much effort and energy goes into actually putting it on right and and for me when people ask about what did you enjoy i think but the thing i enjoyed more than anything yes i love playing but the training is what i miss because you had to test yourself. It was so hard. You knew if you got through training and you were playing at the weekend, you deserved to be playing.

36:01You're going to be one of the best players out there in the world, if not in your club. I just remember saying it as you're talking then. This is not going to be good. I remember you retired in 2011 after captaining England to a World Cup in New Zealand. and 2012 we had a big party around our house Olympics party yeah 2011 I mean you had to bring that up that was 2011 yeah 2011 World Cup amazing it was a bond mate but you're captain of your country yeah it's funny isn't it how you remember it and how I remember it go on no no no no no no carry on you were captain Lou you were our hero as our friend like you were captain in your country after 71 caps 7 European titles sorry seven premiers two european titles like yeah world cup times two one winner world cup and all of a sudden you're now going to captain your country in new zealand for england like we were like you've hit the pinnacle this isn't this is unbelievable your take on it is different yeah absolutely well it is very different because you know outcomes in sport are based on results right and uh and being asked to do it yes that's one thing and and that's something i'll always be proud of is that I feel or someone felt that I was worthy of being a captain of my country which was Johnno Martin Johnson yeah but played with for a long time and I'm sure he I'm sure he uh you know I'm sure he doubted whether I was you know he was second guessing himself I'm sure up until the last minute as to whether I should be that person for all the reasons you've outlined is that I was an energetic bundle of you know enthusiasm that wanted to cause destruction to the opposition i wasn't you know a considered um detail orientated leader uh so but i he obviously weighed up enough that the the sort of i don't know inspiration or whatever that i provided from the way that i played was was going to be enough um and i was proud and you know the first the first occasion that i kept in england was against france away we narrowly lost um we played really well um but we lost i then had to do the post-match team talk and i doubted massively whether i was the right person to captain that team anyway well as you were doing the team talk to the players after the game or to the press no no no prior to prior okay so prior to actually saying yeah i'd love to be england captain i doubted you know did i want to bring my family under the scrutiny the microscope of the english media which you know is pretty brutal yeah or just you know under the microscope being England captain and the pressures that come going into a World Cup, especially in New Zealand.

38:43You know, was I going to be good enough? Would I make the right decisions? All those types of things go through your mind. And I eventually, you know, Jono came around to the house and the kids were playing on the trampoline. I actually ignored his call first up when he rang. Did you think it could be when he was calling? I knew he told me. So Steve Borthwick, the current England coach, was my captain prior to that. Steve got injured on the Wednesday. Sorry, on the Tuesday. And Jono told me, look, we'll do a fitness test for him on Thursday, I think it was, which was our day off. And in that case, if he's not fit, we would like you to be captain.

39:23I was like, fuck, okay. That's just fuck. Okay. I honestly didn't know what to say. And obviously, you know, I was – so when I played – I went my first England tour when I was 19, got captain when I was 21, played in the World Cup at 24. Yeah. And, you know, so I'd been in and around England for a long time and you grow into roles and I was a sort of defense captain and various other things. But I'd not captain, I'd not even captained Leicester, really. You know, one game, I'd captain Leicester for. So to be thrown into that role was a big ask. But anyway, so come back to my point is, you know, that I knew that was going to happen.

40:00I knew Jono calling would be both as his fit or as not. so you're captain or you're not and i ignored it and we're on the we're on the trampoline at home in the garden and the kids were you know just messing around and then i saw uh uh johnny's daughter come walking up the garden i was like oh fuck i really wish i'd picked up the phone and uh yeah so because he called i'd sort of i'd uh i ghosted him and uh and then so he arrived at the house this massive like sort of giant shadow comes walking up the garden we're just watching the kids on the trampoline and uh and he literally this was a conversation he's literally like do you want to be captain yeah and that was it there was no more you know the small talk would it doesn't doesn't really happen so it was just that was the moment and really even until he asked me i didn't know whether i was going to say yes i was enormously proud to be asked i didn't know so get around to why I have a different view to you is you base your successes you base your I don't know maybe it's successes on results in sport and ultimately we had an abject failure across the board in New Zealand 2011 we did have success as a team so we won the Six Nations prior to 2011 we beat Australia and Australia for only the third time in our history.

41:27But the World Cup for me was, you know, having been in it with Jono, having been in 07 with Vicks when we got to a final and Phil was the captain. They're all really different experiences and 2011 where I was the older boy, I'm sure people were questioning whether I was still capable. I had a massive injury prior to it so I'd missed quite a few games. missed the first game on tour What, so your captain missed the first game? Yeah, yeah, yeah so I missed the last couple of warm-up games so I'd had a big injury What was your injury in New Zealand? What were you taking with you? Knee injury so I got injured during the season which meant I missed did I miss all the Six Nations?

42:08So I missed a large part of it anyway so got fit for the end of the season played a couple of games for Leicester at the end of the season and then played the first warm-up game against Wales where I did money again. So bear in mind, we're weeks out now from going to the World Cup. The physios decided that they thought it wasn't that bad and I'd be able to come back from it. But I needed... I was hoping to play in that first game, but it wasn't quite right. So in the second game, I was warming up. So I was starting... I think it was against Namibia or somewhere like that. And in the warm-up, I felt it again.

42:42I was like, fuck. and uh i was just like nah i can't not end in like this because i i my intent was to retire from england after the world cup um and i got up and actually i managed to get through the whole tournament it wasn't fine but but my memory of that tournament is just is disappointment because you know there are things that you learn you know i came to captaincy at 31 32 and you're learning and I retired at 33 so I had so much information I gathered over those last two years that is something I wish I'd done much earlier um but all the stuff that came with it you know the the fallout from that world cup um you know the challenges that we had with behaviors and and certain characters um you know your own was that was that the door throw in and all that yeah yeah yeah that was yeah i mean you can laugh about it no you can laugh at it i still i still don't laugh about it that was properly funny when that come out though that was like the uh that was like the the equivalent of gaza and that lot on the you know the dentist chair styling yeah yeah did you where were you that night so we were i was in the same bar with the same lads but we were watching so we were just a student bar yeah and they had a load of games on so we're like should we go watch some of the games yeah so we went out had a couple of beers so how it always worked was you know world cup camps you build up you work for months on end you're you're ruthless with your nutrition and your and your food and all that and your training and then at some point you are given a date where you know you're going to be able to let your hair down so in 03 we knew that game was going to be against Uruguay so after the Uruguay game we knew we could let our hair down fully and we did I remember nearly missing a meeting because we went out and got so twatted um tomo knocking on my door he came in and uh bearing in mind we're in we're in australia on the gold coast he comes in the beanie and a hoodie i'm like mate what are you doing i was still asleep had you know um on the bed you know if he hadn't come in i would have missed the meeting and that probably would have changed the course of things for me but so you build up to this window where you get all excited you're working relentless and then you're given this window to let your hair down and some people if you're as excitable as me go go hard and uh and tomo's equal to me and he came in with this beanie on i was like why you're wearing a beanie he was like well because you pushed me into a fucking door last night and he split his eye up and i was like oh no mate i'm so sorry so we had to so we had to go to the meeting and then fabricate in the touch session after that a collision that would allow pasky who was the physio to stitch tomo's head up in the in the session but um yeah fast forward to two more World Cups later we had that same build up hard training knowing we were going to be under the scrutiny of the media in New Zealand we told it was going to be the first time that press are going to be coming actively looking for stories so we were told that we knew it we still had that day after I think it was after the first game I think it was after the Argentina game we had the day in Queenstown or weekend in Queenstown where we could just go and relax great party place as well great it's amazing beautiful you know a few of us went bungee jumping and did very you know everyone just sort of did different things and we had a night out and so we went to a just went to a restaurant and then everyone sort of um split off after that some of us wanted to watch the games we ended up in that bar and the game finished and and i can't remember you know why or how the others stayed because i do remember leaving with with with a few of the but obviously um some of some of the some of the fellas who'd let their hair down and that was always you know the place that and the time that we were going to do it um just got themselves caught caught in a mess and the shit storm that came off the back of that for well from you know myself Jono in particular for you know the QC who was looking after it and it just created we created our own challenges on that tour.

46:48We were never good enough to win that World Cup. That was fine, we weren't. But we had a great, talented pool of players that went on to get hundreds of caps, Courtney Laws, Dylan Hartley. Yeah, awesome player. They're machines. But for whatever reason at that time, we just couldn't get it right. No matter how many times we talked about it, doing the right things, behaviours. Was there other stuff? Was there time as a captain, you're going, these are all my pals. Okay, there's a lot of younger kids coming through, but he's my pal, he's my pal. When you're seeing, sensing something happening where it could go OTT or someone blows it out of proportion, did you ever have that point where you're going, I need to have a word to the lad say, let's calm down, we've got to get out of here.

47:27Or did you go, do you know what, crack on? What was going through your mind? You know, those conversations would have happened and did happen. Internally or you speaking to them? Both and all. You have group conversations, so you know that you're going to be under scrutiny, who's coming looking for stories, what's acceptable as behaviours, what's not. um i think the exhausting thing well then was exhausting one of the exhausting things as a leader is you have to be on it all the time and and that's that's tiring and frustrating as well because you think sometimes if you if you share things and it's not like this is my doctor and this is what we've agreed as a group and as coaches and what the coaches want and it's exhausting if you're constantly on it um you know the same people or the same you're picking on the same thing but you have to, you absolutely have to and I think what I learnt more than anything in that tournament was that you have to be probably more ruthless I think because we were winning it papered over the cracks a little bit and that certain behaviours and characters were tolerated more and actually probably in the past you would have gone you give them the opportunity obviously, you don't just someone doesn't just get cut after one mistake you give people the opportunity to be better always you know that's that whole feedback you know you've done this here's an opportunity to be better and I'm grateful for that but yeah so I suppose what was I trying to say is that for me it was exhausting were you the same Lewis Moody going into that World Cup or did you as a captain you go I've got to be different or I've got to give them a bit of distance and I've got to show a bit more authority and a bit more adult or were you just the same yeah oh good question um i was probably that's probably a bit of both i think i wanted to try and be me you know john i gave some good advice he was like just be you mate that's why i'm picking you yeah just be you so i tried to do that but there's always the bit of you that's like i gotta talk more in this uh in this huddle okay you know i've got to be more passionate i've got to sound more intelligent i've got to know more stuff um the thing so being more ruthless yes would be about if there is something that you feel is wrong and you've and the opportunity has been taken to try and improve and it doesn't change then making sure that they're they're moved out of the the equation i think i know whether it's a you know certainly from a personnel point of view and in sport you can do that quite easily obviously in business that's much harder but you get that you know that one trait or individual or something like that you know can just disrupt so many things and it takes you know it takes just one personality yeah i think in hindsight you know i think that we were trying to get to harmony and actually what we needed to do was you know be more ruthless with people this is what we expect you know if you're not prepared to deliver it then yeah you're not there and maybe you know maybe in years gone by that was uh that's what we would have done and i think if i'd learned going forward that's a conversation we probably would have had with jonno or someone else and go look you know but equally around yourself there were times during that tour where i was like i don't know if the lads believe i'm good enough to be captain That was going through your head, was it?

50:36From a playing point of view. Did you sense it at all? Yeah, probably. I probably did. To be thinking that, I probably did. Yeah, okay. And there were times when I thought of going and having a conversation with a coach and going, lads, I want to make sure that I'm being picked because you think I'm the best player, not because I'm captain, you think. So ironically, I actually played really well. So, you know, I was under pressure again, which was great. But yeah, I remember it with mixed memories. memories i remember it you know from a frustrating point of view as a captain because it was there was a lot of frustrations there were a lot of things that went wrong and that's under my watch and you put your hand up and go look i clearly wasn't good enough that's okay um i can take that i learned from it and and and you move on and the really frustrating thing for me was like i know i'm going to retire at the end of this world cup anyway i want to go back play club rugby i've just moved to bath you know the arch enemy of the tigers and played for 15 years and the fucking next game the very next game I had a diving tap tackle trying to uh this was class uh one of the class and his brothers totally missed it just a tap tackle wasn't even a massive hit shoulder came out and I knew that was it I knew in that game that was it I still carried on tried to tried to make a tackle with my wrong arm leading with the head across the knee so I got knocked out about two times and uh yeah that was the end of that was the end of my rugby career Worcester away tap tackle for Bath.

52:00And I had this sort of vision of, you know, playing for Bath for a couple of years, helping them to some sort of silverware, at least moving to the top of the table from where they'd been. And none of that happened. I just had to go home and sit with Annie, try and get rehabbed and then retire, press the button on retiring. That was a weird one to do. I bet. I remember. Yeah. I remember. Don't chat to you about it. Don't call you before, right? Yeah. Yeah, before. Before. You weren't in a good place. You were like, what? And I think the biggest thing, one of the funny things is that in 2012, that Olympic party we had around our house.

52:34That was quality. Quality party. You come as Eddie the Eagle. Yeah, that was a great... Do you remember you and Andy? That was a great outfit. Ginger moustache. That's what I would have. If I grew a beard or a moustache, it would be ginger. It would probably be grey now, in all fairness, wouldn't it? But I remember then, we'd been boozing. There was a load of people there, all partying in the garden, doing fun Olympic games, drinking games and all that. I remember then you still had this energy in you. that you're not a fighter, but you had this energy in you and taking everyone on in the garden.

53:02Well, that's because you were doing competitive fucking Olympic style. Yeah, but we went to MMA on the floor and you were taking people out and you were laying in the back and you were like, oh, that, next one. I remember two of the girls having a full-on boxing contest. They had the gloves on, didn't they? No, I do remember that. What I remember happening was one of your mates, I can't remember who it was, he thought he got on top of me. That's right. And that, That fucking angered the beat. That pissed you off, didn't it? He thought, because he was a big lump, he thought by being on top of you that he was winning, but you had all the moves on the ground.

53:35I choked him out. I tried to choke him out. He tapped. Everyone else is probably looking at me going, oh, he's getting dominated there. I think it was Will, wasn't it? Will. And I knew he was suffering because I had him, what would they call it? It was pretty much the only move I knew from grappling and wrestling days when you got injured at Welford Road, locked the hillitine in, thrust the hip. I remember everyone was about eight drinks in, mate, and you must have gone for about seven or eight fellas. What? Yeah, that's about right, isn't it? Can't be seven or eight fellas. And I remember he just, I didn't mean the hole, and he just went white.

54:12We're all like, mate, that was good. Yeah, that was great. That was good. That was good fun. But, you know, you need to let your hair down, don't you? But you do... But you still had, what I'm saying is you still had it in you. You were like... so competitive wasn't it it was like mate I've been doing this for all my life I don't know any different I know we're mucking around and stuff but it was like it's still there you have it everyone fucking has it we all just have it at different levels and it takes different things to bring out of you doesn't it like for me at that time it was someone getting a better or thinking they got better than a wrestling guy that was the thinking they got better than you yeah but you I'm sure well here what brings out the I like to call it the inner warrior because it's that sort of you know spirit that goes right i'm going to do anything now yeah i'm capable of anything what would bring that out in you I love being the underdog.

55:03I love being the underdog. I love being back against the wall. I love a challenge. I love a challenge in business. I love to see that I can be the best at what I can be. I want to be in the top 1 % of the 1 % in what I do. And if I can't be that, the same with rugby. I got to a level of rugby. I was like, oh, that'll do. I'm off now. I'm going to go and do this, you know, events, live events and festivals and everything that we're doing now. But I just, yeah, I think that's the one for me. Do you know what? It's an interesting question, isn't it? because I assume I think about physicality and almost like a rage-like state.

55:36But actually what the inner warrior looks like for each of us is very different and how we apply it and how we apply that energy and that focus into something. For you it's the challenge of a new project in business, taking a brand on or building a… Building from nothing. That's the beauty of being an entrepreneur. You come up with mad ideas over a couple of beers and all of a sudden you're building something. Actually, I bet I know what really fires you up. I bet it's the signing of a deal or getting to the point where you get that deal across the line. You know, where you're in, that's almost a battle, isn't it?

56:08Yeah, that's nice. A deal over the line is nice, but building something. I put on, obviously, bring people together and put smiles on faces. That's what I've done for 25 years. Is that another slogan? Have you got that slogan? No, but I won't put it up there. But it's the truth. I've put on 1 ,500 club nights for 10 years in my 20s and then put on 19 years of Bournemouth Sevens Festival, 30 ,000 people, 400 teams, and now bringing people together via the power of... Was that your motivation? Making people feel good? Yeah, 100%. Yeah, 100%. As a kid. Not the cash. When you're growing up... Yeah, and the cash.

56:41Not the truckloads of cash. Obviously that bit. I don't know what to do with all these bags. But as a kid growing up living above a pub in London and you've got a nightclub next door and you're selling tickets to the nightclub next door that's 10 years old, that's what I know. putting smiles on people's faces and bringing a community together where people are meeting each other and having a laugh and drinking and partying and dancing. And that's what I've been around all my life, you know. And then dabbled with the rugby thing and got to a level. I was like, well, I'm not going to make it to a top, top level.

57:10Put that to one side. Where are we going now? And I'm glad, you know, I look back at it. I'm glad I stopped when I stopped. Okay. Yeah, because it gave me probably a bigger advantage rather than getting to a point where you're carrying on, carrying on playing sport and then you got to start a career i guess do you know what i mean like and it was how old were you when you 23 okay so that's young yeah yeah really young but then because the reason why is because when you get that when we're doing that thing you get given a car and you get given free stash you know paying 100 quid a week or 200 quid a week whatever it is and then i found this nightclub world where i was like oh my god i can what piling 2 ,000 students It's a£3 a head in that one nightclub.

57:51Oh, my God, these sums sound better than that money. And then you're doing that Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and you're scaling that business up all around the country and having 12 nightclubs every single week around the country at peak. That, for me, totally stopped everything. I was like, I need to home in on this. And that's what I did in my 20s before going into the festival world, which was a big shock as well. Going from indoor events with nightclubs between 1 ,000 and 3 ,000 people we're taking the dorm money and they're taking the bar money so then all of a sudden you're in a 67 acres field and you've got to build a mini town to put on a festival making sport and music and that probably feels right so the start point of it feels exciting because you've got a new thing yes something to build but actually there's a huge amount of discomfort in there so you know what what you're describing is what i felt when i went to penny hill yeah you know you were talking about a time where you're under pressure yeah you know but actually the joy you realize is that you're under pressure and that you've got to constantly deliver and you can't live like that always because it's fucking exhausting but you can live like it as long as you enjoy it enough yeah and you know the end goal is is rewarding enough i suppose and actually the end goal doesn't always go the way you would like for you it has i presume has it always you know have you always achieved the goal that you set out with borner sevens with eventful lives they they all It's been working really well.

59:15I look at the festivals, there's not many festivals that are independently owned still 19 years. Most festivals lose money. But because we're a sports and music festival covering rugby, netball, hockey, dodgeball, basketball, fitness games and what have you, mixed in with a festival party atmosphere with 10 festival music arenas and everyone's boozing and dancing in a fancy dress, that was unique. So if I looked in on your life, I would probably look at it and go, fuck, now everything he's done has been successful. you know if if we look at sport that's that's my perception i i'll ask you to come with shit and then you knocked you a samurai out of the day the old samurai that's protected before my mum passed she she gave me that because yeah i was about i'm glad i didn't take the piss i'm glad you got the through you got the through dark in there as well but um yeah so if we were to look at you like i think it's easy from an external point of view to look at something go guys just a straight journey to the top and and i would look at actually all the things that you've done and it feels like you've only ever had success is there anything you've ever tasted failure with i don't i don't have failure in my vocabulary mate i don't like the word it's pessimistic it's negative for me in business you only fail when you stop and you've gone you know i've given it a good go for three years five i've stopped i can't sell it i've stopped i lost a load of money this is a nightmare that's a failure if you're going to use that.

1:00:40But I just don't have it in my language. For me, it's about tweaking, tweaking, tweaking, tweaking, tweaking. And all I do is build a brand and then you're working it all out. And I've never read a business book. I've never read, I have a mentor who's sat there. You just work it out. And I'm relentless, Lou. You know that. And I'm obsessed. And I get obsessed. And probably the same as you in rugby. You were obsessed. I'm obsessed in business to create brilliant brands and strong brands over years that can generate me being able to employ a load of people and them having good lives. And then at the end of it, if there's profit, myself and my wife can take the profit and build our lives around it.

1:01:17Do you know what I hear from that? And I find it really interesting and useful, actually, is that because in your vocabulary, you talk about not having failure in your vocabulary and that is a mindset shift for you. So that is about, it's not that you don't have failure. It's just you rearrange your thinking. yeah it's like okay yeah that didn't go as i wanted now let's go back to it let's tweak yeah and see and we keep going until you get the result you want you adapt to whatever you know whereas for me when i look at sport or how i look at it it's like success and failure just intertwine so the way that i i look at it is just different is that i accept that there will be failure a little bit like you do but the way that you use it the language that you use make sure that it keeps you in a positive frame probably allows you to keep the people around you in the business in a positive frame of mind so there's no just one plan a that we're going to follow meticulously and we're just going to stay on track because that's insane right you always have to you always have to you're constantly learning i'm a sponge i love learning i never used to enjoy learning at school i was always like earning a pound note at school or i want to be on the sports field playing football rugby cricket wherever it was the actual i never understood that you i never could learn by someone telling me something and i've got to remember it to regurgitate on a piece of i just couldn't it wasn't me i just couldn't do it yeah um but it's but now as an adult over the last 27 28 29 years in business i love learning i mean it's same it's weird like now you get you get older and more wiser or whatever and you sell but it's probably because we we choose things that we enjoy doing to learn about rather than just being told about you know pythagoras's theorem and uh bunts and burners and shit you don't need latin i was great with bunts and burners i used to get i was good with the old spray with a Bunsen burner.

1:03:01Yeah, when it's not looking. Yeah, can set a fire to anything. God, I'm glad I wasn't in a class with you for that outside nightmare. We would have been a nightmare together. I just love the different mental approach to those. And what it makes me think is that actually, you know, there's no one way of doing all of this. There's the way that works for you. And because I've heard someone say that before, and was it Rosie? My mum is someone you've spoken to on the podcast who talked about, you know, I don't believe in failure. It's just, you know, failure is when I stop. So it's just, and you've then tweaked again, it's actually failure is just adapting.

1:03:36It's constantly changing the plan. So your word is your wand. If you've got the right language in your mind. My word is your wand. Have you been watching Harry Potter? No, I don't watch any films. You know that. Yeah, that's true. Or documentaries. Or TV. Or anything. But your word is your wand. If you've got the right vocabulary in your mind, you're optimistic and you're curious and you like to take risks and you're very aware of your subconscious mind the little man on your shoulder constantly talking to you if you're aware of these things you know you know when that man's talking to you or not you know putting stuff into your mind you know what you don't need that in your mind it's going to it's going to ruin the state of your mind for that day or for that hour you know but curiosity has been the one i've been curious since a kid as you know and i'm curious as an adult and i'm curious that i now get paid to be on a podcast to have your own podcast being curious yeah and throwing parties for people but you're absolutely right and that is one thing you've always done done well and i've really admired about you because it's not been a skill i've i've i've come to easily is always having questions that you know you that curiosity is really like it is genuine in you you know when you ask a question it's genuine because you're trying to understand you're trying to learn a little bit more and i think i always saw questions as a as a shit i don't know the answer to that if i ask a question i'm gonna look like a dickhead so I'm just not going to say anything but then of course you don't learn right so yeah it's definitely something I've always admired about you that staying curious is really important right and the awareness what you just talked about around awareness the more aware you are especially of self self-worth is key so that you can make the changes that has been the biggest learning I've had outside of playing sport is a real reflection because in sport you know you've almost got to be this sort of huge overconfident single minded yeah driven but you're almost in this total bubble that doesn't allow any of the negativity in from the outside you're constantly building your inner confidence because you know you're going to go through dips in form, you know you're going to get injured you know you're going to have all these things you're going to have to deal with so you're constantly having to rebuild or keep on top of your confidence and yeah I find it fascinating I've completely lost track of what I'm talking about oh my mate it's good just nice having a chat nice having a chat where do you where do you find that now what's that as we get older the words and and I don't know do you lose track of where you're going more of course it's funny isn't it yeah mate I enjoy it it's like your eyes your eyes go yeah but I enjoy losing track in the middle of a conversation you don't know where it's going to go it's like what are we talking about oh yeah let's go very good I don't I don't enjoy losing track do you not No, because it annoys me.

1:06:20I had a really good point. Because what it means is I've distracted myself by going off onto something else. Onto a tangent. Rather than sticking to the point that you want to go to. Everything's okay. It falls into place, you know. How are you feeling today, Lou? With everything that's going on in your world with MND and how are you emotionally and mentally and how's your world? I'm genuinely good, bud, yeah. Yeah, it's, I mean, I've obviously been asked that question a lot recently.

1:06:55And I think the easiest way of describing it is that I suppose everything is okay. You know, it's not normal. It's definitely not normal because you've been given a piece of news that changes your future perspective and your ability to plan and organize and all those things. But everything's okay. When you're given the news, the language that's used by the specialists is, I'm really sorry, this is devastating, this is terrible, this is just awful. And then why don't you just go away and live your life? Literally, those are the sort of words that are talked about. Just go and enjoy yourself. and so it puts in a very negative headspace straight away and i'm not a negative person i've lived a life off of being probably over positive and always trying to find the positive in everything which means that you often miss a lot of things but you live an enjoyable life um so one i think one of the things that i've learned to do more than anything one of the things that probably all everything that we've spoken about sport in general has taught me is that I'm fully equipped to handle this.

1:08:07I can adapt to this situation. It won't be easy, but I can do it because as a human we're capable of doing anything that we really put our minds to, as we've sort of alluded to already. But it doesn't mean that emotions aren't always simmering. They are simmering always under the surface. a number of like I went to the Legends game the sort of old boys match that happens before the England Ireland game and I walked out of the changing room wasn't playing and just one of the punters came running over giving a massive hug but he was literally uncontrollably crying so you don't only process what you're going through you process what everyone else is going through for you on your behalf and that is consuming but it's you know you have to i have to recognize that it's coming all coming from a kind place you know people for whatever reason feel strongly connected to me i think i have this ability and i enjoy it i enjoy connecting with people i enjoy relationships you know my skill set really is around people you know not anything else i just connect well and so if you know people well i i certainly don't remember don't don't think i know come up to me like we've been best mates for forever and and will share openly and and will commiserate and and consolidate with me and and all of that and and i have to try and find the ability to absorb that or or absorb enough of it so that they feel yeah consoled i don't know that's the right word but listen to appreciate yeah i i don't know that hear it in the right way and and but also not take it all on because if you take it all on it's a lot right you know we've had this piece of news dumped in our life on top of the life that we have already so it's not so it's just been added to it you know it's like that stress container you just keep adding to adding to adding eventually it will overflow so something has to give way and and i suppose the joy of it if that's an expression that's even possible to use is that it simplifies life you know life from the moment i found out and it maybe took a little bit of time it just simplifies your thinking around things because I choose to do more of the things that I love and less of the things that I don't and I don't know how long I'll get to do that for which is a difficult thing to say

1:10:45but that's what I choose to do you know

1:10:51those emotions are always close to the surface right and it's difficult it's a difficult time you're all right you're fucking doing what i've just said

1:11:02and this is the this is the difficult thing right it's like um i'm trying to i'm trying to process it all we're trying to work through it but i know it's going to be okay i know it's going to be okay I know it's going to be hard

1:11:19and I know there's lots of things we haven't even considered at the minute that I will have to consider in the future but I'm happy to face that I am happy to face that and when you look at your family you're going to be alright sure when you look at your family you suddenly get an appreciation it was like a selfishness I'm like fucking thank god it's me you know fuck if it was one of the kids or Annie I don't think I could cope with it and actually it'd be worse because Annie's like the sort of glue that binds the family it's tough man what are you feeling

1:12:16I think it's just reality I guess it's life right I'm going to lose you one day I don't want that I guess

1:12:53but i guess that could happen tomorrow to an infancy like in a car or in a plane or something happened and you wouldn't have the foresight that i've been given like i wouldn't i definitely wouldn't choose for anyone to be given this no not not nine a million years but you get this beautiful foresight of that you you don't know there's no certainty in life there's no certainty you know taxes and we die okay maybe that yeah nothing else and and so i suppose what what it provides you with is, you know, real simple focus and a reminder that, you know, you are not in control of any of this, but you now have a vision and the ability to make choices that you wouldn't have otherwise been able to.

1:13:50You can have the conversations, you can do all the stuff that you otherwise wouldn't have been able to do. and so in some ways it's privilege is the wrong word but it puts you in a in a place where you can do all those things whereas you get hit by a motorbike tomorrow you always end up asking questions but also mate I remain eternally hopeful I'm a fucking optimistic and I enter this I enter this MND world in a far more hopeful place than Doddy and Eust and Ed and Rob did because of those incredible blokes, incredible people. It's easy to focus on just those guys because they were the... But there's thousands of people out there as well.

1:14:42And there's loads of people that don't have that platform that we have, so that's why it's important that we use it, I suppose. But I come into it now, and it's probably in a better place than it's ever been. there is stuff happening there's you know so there is a i forget the name of it but there is a drug now that um that supports the genetic type of mnd that's only three percent of people that are diagnosed with mnd but it pretty much symptom represses there's all sorts of things going on around accessing that drug but so advancements happening all the time there's breakthroughs for want of a you know loose term where new new things are being tested and being proven but there's a long way to go until they actually, you know, I'm on a, I'm on a trial, um, myself.

1:15:26What are you doing at the moment? Is there, is there something you've, you've obviously been, I know you've been approached by lots of people. Yeah. Like how many people have approached saying you need to do this or you take this or do this or come to America and fly here and go to India, whatever it is, everyone's reached out, right? Which is, that was fucking stressful. I'm like, what if, what if somewhere in this, like somewhere in this gold mine of information, there might be a, we missed the one. Yeah. Yeah. and I'm not the person to process all that information because I fucking hate reading one email let alone a gazillion so you've got an amazing team of people and someone who's been prepared to take that sort of challenge on and that's been a tough one that's made quite unwell at times but it means that we feel like we've looked at all the stuff that's been sent there is stuff that

1:16:21is supportive in a way that you know can be therapeutic and all these types of things there lots of things that can support a positive mindset is you know we look at the way stress negatively impacts the body you know in alopecia and various other things you know for me colitis you know so if stress manifests itself in the body physically then so can positivity so So, you know, the importance of the way that you approach this challenge and how you stay strong in your head doesn't mean it'll be easy. I have plenty of days that are hard. Yeah. And I'm in the easy bit. Yeah. I'm at the start. Yeah.

1:17:03So, but I do still think I'm, the life I've led has almost sort of prepared me to be able to adapt and cope with this. And that's okay. and I'm at ease with that. It doesn't mean it won't be emotional still. It doesn't mean that it won't be hard. But, you know, I remain hopeful that the individuals that have worked incredibly hard over decades and decades in this space, in the M &D world, you know, nurses, doctors, specialists, neuroscientists, there's so many pushing so hard at the minute. And they generally believe that something is not far away. Yeah. But it's not just one thing you're looking for in M &D.

1:17:40Like in a lot of diseases, there's sort of multiple factors that need to align for it to really... Right, okay. So how would you explain motor neurone disease in simple terms? Motor neurone, well, so it just basically kills your motor neurones, which eventually, you know, kills your muscles. So your muscles gradually waste away. In me, you can't see a huge amount. What have you noticed since the last few months? So my right hand is the most noticeable, which isn't too you know which isn't even too noticeable really it's just you can see some loss of mass between the fingers yeah and around there some in the wrist yeah um and then behind the the rear delt which is where i first noticed it actually which because of loss of strength yeah um but but yeah it is there was one thing about this this disease is so it feels complicated and i suppose for me is and the people that have around me is how do we simplify it so i can understand it better and that's what we're trying to do and because if we can simplify it then in terms of where i want to apply my effort you know you talked about doddy and those guys and i generally feel like i'm sort of coming off the bench like they give me the baton he's like they've done all the graft already and they're handing me this baton you know come on mate you're in and um i feel like if if i can simplify in my head and if that's possible even you know they'll help us apply our effort and that's something I really want to do.

1:19:12I've lived a life in retirement of charity, of supporting others. It's the thing I enjoy more than anything, right? You talked about putting on events and allowing people to have a good time. I just enjoy supporting people in whatever way it is, you know, whether it's with our company, with our charity, with the work that I do. Lewis Moody Foundation, raising up to two million pounds, was at one point, I think you've done, I can't remember what the exact figure is, but you've raised millions of pounds for Brain Tumor Charity. You're a nanny. That's remarkable. Yeah. Extraordinary. Yeah. I'm always disappointed in having brain tumour.

1:19:45It'd be much easier to continue the charitable stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, we have the challenge now is that we have a charity, which we will continue because we've got some wonderful people and the brain tumour charity is an unbelievable organisation. Yeah. And it's needed. But we've got a big event coming up. Indeed. A massive event on the 22nd of April. Do you know what I found fascinating being on, what do we call it? Not committee. What do we call it? the advisory group advisory group committed way it sounds yeah well there's 10 of us on the advisory group yeah and what's been achieved for your big event in battersea evolution the 22nd of april hasn't even been promoted yet and we sold over a hundred tables god over over a hundred tables and like a thousand plus people already in like a few weeks that's remarkable hey it's remarkable.

1:20:37Yeah, it is. But that's the power of people, right? The amount of people that have poured out and loved. When this came out and I saw it all over the press, you obviously dropped your closest WhatsApp we knew a week before. But when it came out on the press, everywhere, the love that came in for you and Annie and the kids was just off the charts. And I understand why. I don't. I do.

1:21:07fuck this literally spend every day crying yeah yeah i don't at all i have moments that do you know i had a chat with a psychologist we'll be i'll dive into this because i think it's important to talk about your emotions right otherwise uh it's easy to mask it over but i am so optimistic i'm so positive i know i will handle this you will handle it i don't know if anyone gonna handle it you're gonna handle it like and and i know all those things but so what i said to her is that i've always got this weird underlying emotion and it sort of kicks in when i talk about other people or the support like the support that we've uh we've experienced that it always always kicks me off because i don't know why i don't know why but it just does because it's it's overwhelming it's lovely it's you know you don't expect it yeah um and and she's So she just said to me, it's like, it's okay.

1:22:03You know, it's okay to have, by letting it in, by letting the emotion in and actually going with it, feeling it. It's okay. It's not, that's not going to, she's always explained it, that's not going to consume you. It won't suddenly always be sad. And I was like, do you know what? That's a really good point. I think I've probably spent a long time since diagnosis just trying to repress it because I want to stay happy. I want to stay positive and all those types of things. but it's okay to have one foot in in each camp and it doesn't mean that if I let it in and the emotions come and I let them out I'm going to be constantly sad because I won't and I know from sport that I can bounce through real high emotions real quickly and go the other way but also learn how to sit in the middle but what I know is that whether it's the extreme high or the extreme low is I know that I'll be alright and it's okay, you know, to be in one of those places at any given time and just embrace it and sit in it.

1:23:04And understand which emotion you're in. Yeah, and you talked about awareness and just almost name it. Just go, okay, this is where I'm at at the minute and that's good. How hard was it for you to break the nose to Dylan and Ethan? Oh, fuck.

1:23:29Yeah, horrible.

1:23:33Horrible. But I'm glad we did it. I'm glad we did it in the way that we did it because it was one of those. I'd sort of known for a while anyway. I'd been given the heads up probably a month before this is what it could be. I thought, fuck. And actually that month was the worst, by far the worst. I slept. Excuse me. I didn't sleep. you're constantly on your mind and actually as soon as you found out it was almost a relief that sounds strange and i'm sure most people would say this i'm assuming most people would say this is as soon as you have information you have the ability to do something and you have a little bit of peace but obviously then came okay now i've got this information what do what do i do with it and and all i'd wanted to do for the month before was tell the kids that we're going through a tough time and actually it's harder than it um so i made i do me and honey chatted together and we said look i'm gonna tell the boys when we get home i've always been my way of doing is just get straight to it don't bullshit and we just walked through the door um and told dylan first uh and yeah man fuck it's hard right because neither of them even really knew what it was they'd heard about mnd but um dylan dylan took it pretty well um dylan's 17 17 yeah yeah he's actually 18 yeah a couple weeks um the hardest the hardest response to to handle was ethan's because he was just he didn't understand it but he was just you know very emotional about it and actually he really craved information so he said I just need to know what's it mean what's it mean or what's it mean it's like well I've got a life limiting condition this is what's going to happen is there anything else I need to know is there anything I've got to know now you've got to tell me now and as soon as he'd again as soon as he'd had the information he's been able to process it and I think because they see me you can sit here and look at me now I'm okay and that's good right and everyone talks about being more present and living in the present and all that type of stuff.

1:25:49And Ethan's 14? 14, yeah. Was that harder? It wasn't harder. I think the age made a difference. I think the responses, you know, Ethan was much more

1:26:03like emotional about it. Dylan processed it. You know, he was, you know, obviously a lot of cuddles, all that sort of stuff. There's a lot of tears. But we're emotional about something that hasn't happened as well. you're emotional about news it's just a piece of news and as we spoke about earlier the thing that it changes is the sort of future is unclear now the future is always unclear so that's the real battle you've got in your mind is that yeah I've got this piece of information and the horrible thing about it is you probably have to witness it the inner struggle that you have about not over observing your own body which is an athlete you've spent a lifetime doing you know so watching the sort of you know muscle wastage or you know strength disappearing or grip strength or you know whatever it might be in your legs in your um in the voice or or wherever so but everything now is okay and actually that's all that matters because you know tomorrow's gone yes right you know yesterday is yet happen and today is what we have and without being too sort of philosophical about it it's easy to say when you're in a position that i'm in now but it really clarifies your thinking and your understanding of what that really means and the only decision i made when i retired and retirement is hard enough right from sport or business or you know people literally retire you go from the purpose is gone the who you are everything that connects you to rugby yeah yeah what you were you know that's gone and all of a sudden you you find yourself in this very different um space but the only decision i made when i retired was okay i've met a lot of people that have retired earlier because they're trying to reclaim time with their family so the only decision i made was whatever i do next i have to has to afford me the time with my family so that i don't regret it in my 50s 60s and i'm looking back and now 15 years on from making that decision and you know I've had 15 years of quality time with my boys and Annie you know all of our family um I have a wonderful life you know I wouldn't change anything um I would change my diagnosis obviously but um you know and and I feel fortunate that I was I'd been surrounded by good people that helped me make that decision at that time meant that I didn't earn as much money as I could potentially have done if I'd gone into a life in the city or insurance or any of that stuff but I to do the thing that was important to me and that was time with my family.

1:28:35And I'm so fucking grateful now, you know, because you look forward and who knows what that looks like. You've got a beautiful family. It's one of the most tight-knit families I've ever come across. Well, that's kind, mate. You're a quality family. But it's because I've been able to spend time with them. Yeah, the last 15, yeah. Give them the things they need. How's Annie? She's good, mate. It's challenging. Good, yeah. Yeah. She's CEO of GameKill Energy Trust. She's doing so well, isn't she? Yeah. she's probably in her she's in the right place she should have been a long time ago you know running something organise it yeah she's obviously obviously she's organised me essentially for 20 years we've been married 20 years this year and we're considering going back to Bermuda which is where we got married is she is she what's her emotions daily does it change like yours or is she one foot in one and one foot in the other or is she like no we're going to do this I think distraction is helpful She's got work She's got work and that's important

1:29:38It always fluctuates There's no Plane sailing We're getting emotional here There's a Negative That's not the right word either There's a slight dourness To this news But it's not new to me and and i don't feel down about anything yeah i just i feel good i feel like i can embrace all the things that come in yeah yeah and as i said to you but that doesn't i can't i can't help any feel that way i can't help anyone else feel that way so being really aware of actually what everyone else is going through as well is important because you know they're the are the people that you need around you and you know when shit progresses they are going to be the people that are there and uh you know so having all those honest conversations now and getting that out of the way and then you know reassessing as time goes on and we need to adapt and changes occur um but we'll adapt with that you know mentally and physically but yeah i can't you've got a great mindset I'm lucky man you've got a great mindset yeah life has given me that opportunity it's given me ulcerative colitis during my 24, 25 we won a World Cup I had multiple injuries to that time and injuries are a great way of dealing with adversity is a strong word isn't it but just building your inner strength making you want to appreciate how you can come back from anything lots of people as you said quit give up yeah you know as for me there was there was never even in my mind it was like i'm gonna play rugby i can love this is no way this little thing's making me stop you a broken ankle ruptured achilles fucking list goes on forever i mean that did get that did get tiring but then you know throw into that equation you know dealing with a with another uh you know disease illness ulcerative colitis and that's probably brought on by stress also maybe by the amount of drugs we were taking at the time and all that type of stuff but all these sort of scenarios um you know have put me in perfect place to to be able to deal with this and having people like ed and doddy that you can look at and go fucking okay those guys yeah those guys did it we've got all that information to call upon as well and they've all reached out and you know cath and kev simfield and kenny logan and you know all these incredible human beings we've all reached out with support and knowledge to share because that knowledge once you have knowledge you can do things yeah and even if there isn't a huge amount to do you feel like you can do something and even if for me you know it's just where you apply that next effort you know we talked about the dinner you know so you know my name is doddy is is it's been a huge part of um my learning about mnd kenny logan um paul all the guys that that are there you know the the other charities that exist around it, you know, MNDA.

1:32:39I mean, there is so many charities doing so many good things in the MNDA world. I don't, my goal isn't to set up another charity. It's just to support those ones that are out there already. And, you know, we're not, we're not quite aligned at all. No, that's not, that's not the right word. We are aligned. We're just not quite defined exactly what that looks like at the minute. But, but we're close. And in April, hopefully we'll be. April 22nd. That's going to be a cracker. Yeah. anyone listening out there go and check where can they find where can people find that's a good question I don't know hasn't been promoted yet but we sold like 1 ,200 tickets black tie I think we've got 20 I think we've got 20 spaces 20 tables left was it 20 yeah 20 tables left which I think they go like hotcakes as soon as it goes out there they'll probably go everyone and anyone in the sporting world and that world will be there that evening yeah mate I didn't know those things fuck it I was feeling awkward about that today it was like you know I was at Matt Hampson's dinner last night you know quality event yeah amazing human being great people um lots of support and has done for however many years he's been going which is a long time now um i was just thinking fucking how awkward is it going to be for me in because it's all right when you've got a charity you know but i don't you know for me on that night being at that event it's going to be challenging because i'm front and center it's about yeah it feels like it's a little bit about me and it feels and i've never quite enjoyed being that's why i'm not a great self-promoter you know you're a you're selfless yeah like you know what you know it was one time when when we you've said uh you and annie sent her what's happened i drove down to bath before it went out in the press you and i were in that cafe and this woman come up and we just you and i were talking about what's just been what you've got emendee this woman come up and you gave her a big hug she's like how are you loose i'm absolutely fine and and it was just like how are you you you cared, I just saw this, you're just so selfless and have been for so many years, like, you're always like, people around you if they're upset, it's like, are you okay?

1:34:40It's like, bloody hell mate. Yeah, but that's what I enjoy, that's what I prefer, I don't like the attention all being on me, it doesn't mean that I don't enjoy having attention when I've done something worth celebrating and achieving good, you know, I love that. But yeah, just have, yeah, it's tricky, I will find the 22nd hard. Hard, I will. But I will be glad to get to it. I will be enormously grateful of all the support, the people, the advisory group. Yeah, absolutely lunatics we've got on that. Great bunch. That's doing great things. That was a great dinner the other night. Yeah, yeah, it's a lot of fun.

1:35:15The first one, you missed the first one, which ended up at like four in the morning. One of my mates, Al, has got his own whiskey brand that he's just launched. He's got his own face on it as well. Al, the guy you've done the North Pole and South Pole with? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You'll have to get up there. He's coming on. he's got some great stories but yeah he's also a good entertainer so he brought out a gazillion different types of whiskey and all sorts it was a long night but a good one mate those people are key especially around a specific thing just good people they're there surely to help and do us and then obviously we need a couple of people that might actually organise some shit and keep us all on track rather than Sporzy before we come out here I said any questions I put out on socials Sporzy's went are you the only professional superstar sportsman to wee sit in down I only do that at night I don't want to piss on the feet just lift it up it's too much hassle isn't it in the dark contact's in I'm like fuck it just yes I often do that and I sit and I just doze I could potentially I worry about pissing myself have you got really good fond memories of the World Cup in 2003.

1:36:34Yeah. What really stands out for you? If you were to pick a couple of moments. What stands out for me is how I feel about it now and how I feel around the people that I did it with. And, you know, we talked about all the stupid stories, you know, that you can share about people. And people always want to hear the stupid stories, which is great and fun to share. And, you know, we love sharing them. But actually, we never debriefed that World Cup after the event. So we spent years going through prepare, play, plan, you know, prepare, play, plan, prepare, play. You know, so brief, debrief, brief, whatever.

1:37:12It's just ongoing. Get to the game, it was prepare, play, the end, celebrate. And that celebration obviously went on for a long time. but we never sat down as a group and actually went through it and just had beers together as a group and the coaches and partners and celebrated what we did and really just looked at it and we only did that three years ago. It's crazy, it was three years ago already so 20 years after the event. Why is that? I don't know. Why would you not get to it? If you're in a cup together surely you'd have a bond of a group all on a WhatsApp. Yeah. I'm not sure there wasn't WhatsApp back then.

1:37:47No, there was WhatsApp, yeah. But something to go right through as well. You could have written an email chain couldn't you could have any yeah we just just never happened i don't know maybe the next thing yeah maybe exactly well some of us were still playing i mean i went on and played for another eight years some of the lads retired straight away clive stepped away new coaches come in and it just continues doesn't it i know that the the journey continues but you know the strongest memory is how i feel about the lads when i see them now it doesn't mean that we're all best mates we definitely weren't you know you've got your mates your close mates and you can probably count on one hand you've got the lads that you get on well with because you play at club and you know you just get well with and then you've got the other guys you know that you you respect you you know they're good professionals but you're not bothered about spending time with them um and that's okay it's not there's nothing wrong there's nothing wrong with that at all but um i think what what we went through what you recognize that it forges is that actually it created a real love whether you got on with some of these people or not for that moment in time because you were so hell-bent on achieving something and you were all clearly focused on it you knew what you had to do you all prepared to do it and you went out and did it it just every time you took the field it just fostered a sort of deeper love and it sounds a weird thing to say doesn't it but it's true like when I see the guys now I do yeah it's it's a bond through for life isn't it yeah give me three play three of the hardest players you've played with or against on the field and then I I want to know one player off the field, having to tear up on the cobbles, who you would pick?

1:39:23Oh, I'll start with, I'm going to go in reverse because I can't remember what you should at the start. On the cobbles, on the streets, yeah. Who would it be? Two people. Well, three people. Yeah. Easy. So in terms of fighting capability, so I would have been very enthusiastic, but terribly inaccurate. So would have got battered. I'm an awful fighter. Enthusiastic. whereas Leon Lloyd Lewis Deacon and Julian White are the clinical finishers street fighters from Cov and Blebe oh and Whitey's from I think Cornwall maybe no Cornish maybe he was a tough man wasn't he really tough mate I remember he is when you see Whitey I don't think you get an appreciation for the human that he is he is such an entertaining character you know but proper hard tough looking old farmer.

1:40:17Now he's got his own sort of farming Instagram stuff going on. But he was ruthless, mate. Oh my God, yeah. One punch, boom, over. What did he knock out? It was a big lump up front. Was it Sheridan? Yeah, he knocked out. Anyone he played against that pissed him off, he just knocked him out, yeah. I remember we played Leicester Bristol and I was on the scrum and I gave Whitey a cheap shot and he stood up after the scrum and chinned Adam Boulding because he was like, it was him instead of me. Boulding's like, what are you doing? What are you doing? I was like, sorry about his peripheral. But no, they were, you know, Leon Deeks and Weiss.

1:41:01Leon's now a doctor. Better play to win. Double doctor, isn't he? Double doctor, yeah. Yeah, mate, he is remarkable. Yeah. Worker. Grafter. Yeah. Who on the field has been the hardest you play against who you just think, mate, I know I'm up against it today? Lomu. First time I played Lomu. I mean, he was a freak unbelievable. And that's harsh. He was just, you know, he was the beast before they were beasts. You know, the league, all the rugby teams have him now, don't they? These massive sort of Samoan, not even Samoan, you know, you get the guys like George North or Matt Banner. I just think, you know, you get backs that are massive now, quick, powerful.

1:41:40But the Islanders are destructive. That's just pretty beast. um so lomu um who else bacchus botha bacchus botha he was like the enforcer horrible bastard like he battered me in the first game i played against africa and i remember taking like three or four beatings every time i went to a ruck and eventually i was like i'm gonna have to sort this out okay i was probably 21 22 he might have been younger than me and uh He's massive, like six foot six, 20-odd stone. And I remember getting smashed in the face by him in another breakdown, rolled out, just thought, right, fuck this, jumped up, punched him straight in the nose.

1:42:21He didn't even move, really. I think he was so shocked that someone had dared punch him in the face, like so openly. And he paused for enough time to allow me to sort of scarper off. But that contest is the cool bit, is that he was trying to enforce his will on me and South Africa were the most physically brutal team in World Rugby and probably still are. And so if you like the physicality of the game, you need to confront the most physical player on the pitch and that was backies. And for me, it sort of, you know, obviously he then spent the rest of the game trying to chase me down and absolutely beat the fuck out of me.

1:42:59But it forged a sort of, it forged connections and respect when you play guys like that. Like Richie McCourt, and I would never compare myself to Richie because he was just a god of back rowers, consistent in every game. He played 140 caps or whatever it was. Did he get a ton 40? Yeah, it's crazy. In that position. And every game, he was the one person that was targeted because he was so good. But every game, he was there or thereabouts, man of the match. I mean, he's different gravy. And I suppose the other person, not to play against, but to play with was Jono, just the beast, right? He was great.

1:43:34and if anyone gets the opportunity to listen to Jono we've been chatting, we've been at a few events recently and he's so relaxed and you just hear the stories sort of come flowing out and he loves sharing it, especially when he's in company of his mates or that 03 group and yeah I would recommend anyone that has the opportunity to go and listen to him speak because how he speaks about the game and also Jono I think, and this is going to sound derogatory I don't mean it to be, you know, because of his appearance he's a huge imposing character where he's quite sort of stern looking you know people i don't think people gave him appreciated how intelligent a human being he is and how intuitively he understood the game of rugby it was just second nature to him and we were at an event the other day and he was talking to some of the the younger players and you or coaches and you just listen to how he talks about it it's like immediately everything goes silent and you have to listen yeah respect god that makes absolute sense I've not thought of it and how you say it he's just got that, some people just have a presence don't they, you walk into a room, everyone looks at you and you go, you just feel it and Jono was like, let's play with you wanted to be near him because you knew he'd be the first bloke climbing out of the blocks trying to tuck into the opposition so he wanted to be on that journey with him and mate, it was a cool time to enter England and Leicester when he was captain, because it was just, golden times wasn't it, the whole period but put the success to one side like the enjoyment that you got out of training that hard and that physically and testing each other continually it was just so enjoyable like in a in a sort of you know slightly sadistic type of way is that it was hard and it was horrible and you know players like tough players like darren garforth and and cockers and fritz van heerden and old school guys like that that would test you constantly yeah but it was enjoyable man like look back on it with joy yeah what was it like going on an away day trying to get the back seats of the bus fighting for the back seats of the bus at Leicester?

1:45:30Well, when you were younger, not fun at all. Give me an example of what you had to do and what went on. Well, so normally what would happen, the young lads, whether you played your first game or not, if it was an away trip, the young lads, whoever, you know, the whole players deemed that was on that given day, would have to stand up and attempt to get to the back of the bus, you know, just the back seats. but the back seats were always you know proliferated with so you had Martin Curry, you had Martin Johnson you had Will Johnson, you had who else was there, Neil Back actually in fairness, Neil Back's handy with his fists as well he's a tough little one, aren't you?

1:46:06Who else would have been in there? Some of the front rowers so Danny Garforth, Graham Roundtree Cockers probably would have been in and around it I would have been somewhere in the middle or some of the backs would Leon have been in there? no, there weren't a huge number of the backs Dave Lockheed who is an enormous Canadian winger, he had a little go but no one really ever made it to the back there was one person who definitively made it and it was the least likely person you'd ever imagined so it was an Australian flyer called Pat Howard who went on to be our coach he was tiny and you know I say soft in the sense that he had a soft nature not that he was not a tough character because he was tough but he was astute so he recognized that uh there was an opportunity when all the massive mutants at the back were stood up filling in you know 20 year olds that they probably wouldn't be paying attention to what was happening under the seat so he just crawled under the seats and then popped up in the corner and waited for it all to all to die down and before one of the lads realized he'd made it so he was the only person that's ever actually allowed to sit on the back seat as a back or as someone that had made it it got tasty you know when people got probably filled in seats got broken often um yeah it's just a different time mate but it was it sounds weird when you talk about like that but it was it was fun it was the it was the environment that was normal to us and i appreciate that it's okay that norms change right and that's not normal now but for us at that time that was normal and actually it was what made us great it was like the constant competition it was the fooling around it was the it was the goofiness of it but but then it was total application to your job when you turned up you know it was like we worked so hard we trained so hard we will we will play we'll play hard when we get the opportunity as well i remember one of those backseat incidents so peter short who was a big back row a second row played for leicester and bath he's probably i don't know six foot five 19 stone dean richards who is you know playing the the 91 World Cup final, England great, 50-odd caps, who was a coach at the time.

1:48:10He's just a big child, Dean, really. He loves messing still. So when he was coaching, after a game, there'd be a bit of rest in. Everyone would try and take Dean down. He'd be having a few pints. And Dean had had an ear operation to clear out his ear canal so he could hear better. And Shorty decided on the way back to the bus, so we'd all had a few drinks. We'd just won another league title against Bristol and Bob Dwyer, who was our old Tigers coach. And so we'd done a bit of celebrating in Bristol. As we're coming off, Dean's had a few. Shorty's had a few. Shorty decides to hide behind a tree just before the bus.

1:48:49And as Dean approaches, because Dean's got this crazy farmer strength, right? You try and jump on him, he'll just like swat you off like a fly, no matter who you are, just crazy strength. And Shorty hid behind this tree. And as Dean's like happily wandering up to the bus, he jumped out on him and they're fucking wrestling and uh as dean they sort of calmed down and sure he didn't get the better of him didn't take him down dean goes anyway just wanders off gets back on the bus he gets on the bus and the lads are like oh my god mate what so his ear just hanging off literally like by a couple of stitches here yeah because he'd had this operation i'm sure he'd accidentally pulled his ear off and the doc who must have had about seven or eight gin and tonics by that stage he was totally incapable of doing any stitching so they basically got some sellotape and any medical tape that they could find and they just taped his ear on his head and we went off to another pub on the way back and I think it wasn't until the morning that he actually went in and got it repaired but yeah it was different times but fun good times it was good yeah good times on the pit so I'm just thinking of all the different funny things we've done do you remember getting on the pit if you remember going to your place them are better yeah they'll just go away for a couple of days or get away from rugby i think you you had a broken leg or broken ankle or something we're like oh we're just uh we'll just keep it easy we'll go easier than this one we found the old tint of verano you know the red wine mixed with lemonade well no we should be really clear because we'd planned a relaxing massage bit of training that's right two days three days by the pool no booze just chill first night did a weight In all fairness, you put your neck out immediately after two reps of shoulder press.

1:50:31And so we went upstairs at a barbecue. You brought out the Tint of Verano, red wine, lemonade, I don't know, sucker for anything sugary. That was perfect. But instead of having just a couple of glasses, we had about four or five. More bottles. Next thing you knew, I was on crutches and with a broken leg. You'd fucking ditched me in the centre. No, we drove down in the golf buggy. No, that was the morning after. Morning after we went down. No, we drove down in the golf buggy. We're on the main road in the golf buggy driving down. No, that was the morning after. Was it? I'm sure that was the morning after.

1:50:58We got a cabin. We got a cabin and I remember distinctly saying to you, whatever you do, I'm on crutches, do not leave without me. And next thing you do, I had fucking no idea what was going on because we were obviously battered. What were we doing down there? And I was in the middle of the noose. What were you doing down there? Let's climb that wall to get... I had to climb over the gate. Who was it? Was it your place or Lloyd's? Lloyd's, yeah. Do you remember when Lloyd turned up the following day? he told you specifically who's not to sleep who's been sleeping in my bed we were larry we were like cross-eyed we're like mate oh mate good time it was funny it was but hey life there's something about I don't know there's something about the sort of silliness yeah it's great I don't know what I enjoy now because I stopped drinking quite a lot no I didn't stop drinking but less yeah drunk a lot less I would say between 18 and 25 we probably drank twice a week Wednesday and Saturday certainly the first few years when you were you know when you were developing and actually people probably be surprised to know that even during those years when we were so successful we were going out on a Wednesday night midweek as young players but you turn up and you turn up to training, you deliver, you turn up and play at the weekend, you deliver and it just worked for us until a certain point you get to sort of 25 and then you start to pick that up but it's only really in the last year or so that I've generally quite enjoyed getting back into so for instance I would go to all these events like hamburg dinner whatever I would never stay rarely stay now whereas back in the day I would have been there all night or in the morning but I'm just starting to sort of find my enjoyment of it again I don't know what it was that stopped me I don't know whether it was the frustration or the disappointments or you know when you became as you move through the international status and you become more recognizable and you do campaigns in for Nike and you've got your face and boom are you I did remember we did that um supermarket suite around Nike oh yeah and then we went up to where were we Leicester Square was it or no where's the big Nike store I can't think of Nike Town Nike Town in somewhere Oxford Street Oxford Street and we were there and you and I turned down free high cares off the back of that yeah plug but do you remember when we turned up they had this massive billboard of your face in an England kit yeah yeah that was a yeah but it was a it was a specific campaign but that's what I mean that was unreal mate and we were they were there's a trolley and me and you were just throwing stuff in and said, help yourself.

1:53:17You were like, hey, I'll dodge it. I was like, I'll summon that. Mate, it was bizarre. Pilot all in. But you're putting in, you're like, you're in a... Bubble. It's a fake world. Yeah, bubbles. Bubble's a good way of putting it, isn't it? Because that doesn't exist in reality outside of it. How did that make you feel? You know, you're walking up there and there was this, like, 50-foot billboard of you in an England night kit outside night. Cool but uncomfortable. You know, like the sort of, the idea of being in centre stage at a dinner where it's all about you. So it was cool because it was like an acceptance no not an acceptance it's like an appreciation it's respect right yeah it can make you are one of the best at what you do in the world yeah yeah and that's all i ever wanted really give me some give me some other examples of when you were at your peak like what was your what was your peak salary where were you was it leicester was it bath uh bath bath in terms of club salary yeah yeah i don't know probably i think it's Guys, it's no use putting it off.

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1:54:54Yes. Okay. Yeah, so joined summer of 2010. Yeah, okay. The World Cup was autumn 11. And how much would you have been on? Why did you leave Leicester? What happened then? They let me go. What, literally like, we're not renewing or? Yeah, so I'd been at Leicester since I was 14. Me, Geordie Murphy and Lewis Deacon were sort of the last senior, older senior players. And we'd been negotiating contract. And I don't know, you know, I was at a time in my life where I was, I'm in an iron about whether it was time to move and do something different or go abroad. But to play for England, you still had to play in England.

1:55:31So I'd made the decision to stay, I think, at Leicester. But we're negotiating the contract, so there's probably the usual games being played. He's going to go, let's get a better deal type thing. Anyway, so they signed Jordan and Deeks, and that was sort of telling to me.

1:55:53The first time I knew was I'd just played my first game as England captain, ironically. and on the Wednesday I got a call from Cockers, Richard Cockle just to say mate Can you come into the office on Thursday when you come back? I was like, hold on, he's never called me. If I've been called into the office, it's only for a review of the game or something. So I called the agent straight away and just said, mate, it's either going to be one way or the other. It's either really good news or really bad news. So at that point, we'd been looking at some clubs in France, but because I was pretty focused on staying in Leicester, I hadn't really even considered clubs in the UK because I didn't really want to play against anyone else.

1:56:42And so we called one of our friends. And so Tasha, Annie called Tasha. And Tasha was like, oh, well, there's actually a place at Bath. Danny's Mrs. Tasha. Tasha's married, Danny Gricko. Yeah, so Annie and Tasha were best mates. And that was it. So that sort of started the ball rolling and I ended up at Bath. And I'm grateful that that happened because it made me appreciate how special Leicester was in terms of the environment that was created there, the sort of professionalism. I'm grateful that it allowed, I had the opportunity to experience something different and recognize that actually how I went about entering that environment was wrong.

1:57:24I had this sort of whole, I need to come and help change, whereas actually I needed to understand how to integrate myself into that team in a way that was useful and purposeful to them because they played a very different way. They had a very different mindset about everything. I found the rugby difficult, but now, the weird thing is, having spent so long in Leicester, what, 20-odd years in Leicester, you know, Bath is home. Beautiful. Right, it's home. It's my home. Yeah, yeah. So it's where the kids, it's all the kids know. We love it. Bradford and Avon is where we live. But my rugby home in Storleicester.

1:58:01Like my heart on a rugby field is always with the Tigers. But kids, you know, got kids who are in the pathway at Bath, you know, they're loving it. So we've got some healthy rivalry. Like those Leicester Bath games are quality. I love it, mate. But I can't remember what I was talking about. I was always saying, you asked me about my salary. No, I was asking about you. So, and how much would you, how much at peak were you earning as an England player if you were in the squad? Was it, rumours have it it was 20 grand, 25 grand? Or did you see it jump as you were an older we we were never that high so yes of course it jumped i think i think i remember it being sort of 1500 for a win bonus when i first started yeah around three grand and by the time we finished it was probably 12 to 15 match fee i don't recall there being a win bonus that's memory you know mate i might be wrong there yeah and that's changed since as well so that was over that was over a decade and going from amateur to professional obviously so there was a lot to address there and to get right and to get wrong you know obviously the England lads that were involved at the time had that strike in 2000 to make sure that it was paid properly and what was that, who led that strike?

1:59:12I can't remember I wasn't involved in it you know I was outside the squad at that time so I remember Jono talking about it so this is just from his you know my memory of what he said was that And, you know, he chatted with Clive about, we feel like the lads need to be, you know, financially rewarded for what they're doing. And Clive said, absolutely, I'll, you know, I'll support you too. Whatever decision you make, I'll support. And I think then when, obviously, I decided to strike, Clive was like, what? No. And it led to a big discussion in the team room again, which I wasn't a part of. Needed.

1:59:55yeah it wasn't it yeah if you think about that squad of 22 they're getting paid that amount compared to a four million pound turnover on the gate minus the beer minus the sponsorship it didn't seem right i think that's what those boys believe made them it was started and instigated the tightness around that group you know that they were prepared to take that stand even when the coach you know was frustrated with the stand they took and maybe disagreed with it and it can it created a conflict. Actually, that conflict created unity within the team and eventually it created resolution between the coaches and it was a strong starting point.

2:00:34One of the things that happens, certainly don't advocate for going on strike. Sometimes it's needed, right? Sometimes, hold on, we're not getting anywhere, so we're going to strike. You need us, we're performing on the pitch. Give me some other sponsors that come on board with you because you've had unbelievable sponsors over the years, like people who want to work with you as a partner. Yes, true. So Nike, we mentioned Red Bull, Land Rover. I mean, they're all in different guises as well. If you're good at something, people want to throw things at you. Actually, when you've got money, they want to give you even more money, which is the weird thing.

2:01:14When you've not got it and you need some, there's never really to be about. But yeah, I remember during that time, so between 03 and even actually sort of 03 onwards, I suppose. Is that when it all changed, 03? Yeah, of course. Mate, we left. Yeah. We left going to 03 as just, you know, England rugby players that no one really knew. The most famous rugby face at that time was probably Rory Underwood's mum, if anyone remembers that. You know, genuinely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because of all the tries he scored, she was always the person that they saw. and you know Johnny was starting to be recognized and you know we'd run a grand slam so it was creeping up um but it was not like it was none of us were prepared for what was to come afterwards I definitely wasn't like you know you get on the plane you return home you were just normal lads we were normal lads you know to the point where you've got boys the non-2023 or 22 it would have been then you know they were sat behind the bench with bottles of Lucozade full with vodka and Red ball and all sorts during the during the final yeah drinking and uh and like sharing it around the subs and the subs like no oh yeah but um but yeah so we we went away and we came back totally different human beings well the perception of us was totally different we were exactly the same um and people like johnny and johnny were thrust into the into the craziness of it you know jason you know jace retired you know he he did all he could to you know embrace the the rfu sort of credit card and uh make sure he maximized it before he stepped away you know the number of you know the number of drinking sessions he he could put away he was just remarkable but a wonderful human being yeah i enjoy i enjoyed being i enjoy being with that squad now probably more than i did back then because of all the things we talked about it was uncomfortable you know there were tricky characters and some people i didn't get on with and but we were all hell bent on achieving the the one goal so that meant that we found a way of well we respected each other and on the pitch we we loved each other we were doing anything for each other that's the way i look at it and not everyone might say that but um so when we came back all of a sudden you're thrust into tv adverts and you're on uh who's the guy with blonde hair tarrant chris tarrant chris tarrant Chris Tarrant did a TV show where he invited.

2:03:36So he sent out a message to all the wives saying, right, do any of the players have a special talent? And Annie goes to me, do you have a special talent? I was like, I can sing the Bee Gees. She was like, oh, OK, cool. I was like, you do not share that with anyone. Go on, Annie. And because it turned out that they were looking for people to go in. So they had this TV show, evening with the World Cup squad. We come back. We sit on these stages in this auditorium. you've got a crowd full of celebrities it was all celebs like hundreds of them and you know they introduced jamie cullum you know the sort of jazz pianist he came he came up and then after jamie cullum so because they've been looking for people with joe worsley whilst we're away in the world cup he every opportunity was sit on the piano he's a great pianist isn't he yeah he is now back then oh my god he agreed to play the piano and fair balls to him because there's absolutely no way in the world you would have got me on a stage in front of celebrities yeah you know just after jamie cullum has performed basically with his elbows and his ass and his toes one of the most you know phenomenal renditions of some jazz uh jazz song ever and he's got backing band and dancers and literally after that they invite joe wasley up on the stage and ladies and gentlemen we've got joe wasley also an incredible pianist but he didn't have backing singers he didn't have music he didn't have anything it was just him on solo piano oh my god it was brutal it was hilariously brutal though you know when if he was sat there looking over at his mates all he would have seen was people like lying on the floor laughing because it was so it was like and they focused on his hands they were like look at look at his hugely disfigured fingers like how does he even play the piano oh it's a bit brutal but yeah well then you go and meet the queen or you meet the Prime Minister and you do all this shit.

2:05:24We were just normal lads. It was weird. So, but from that point, 100 % from that point onwards. Life changed. Yeah, it did change, yeah. It became very abnormal. And I think we, like as an individual, I probably got sucked along with that for a while. You know, you get a bit more ego. You know, you think more highly of yourself, all that type of stuff. And yeah, you need a few humbling sometimes along the way to remind you what's important. Did anyone try to stitch you up over the years? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I had plenty. I thought it only really occurred when I was captain. So we had an incident when I was abroad and you just knew something was wrong.

2:06:09When you're England captain, you just know. You've got your... I was acutely nervous about doing it anyway. So when you are at it, you're like... More aware. Yeah, yeah. So I didn't really drink. And actually we were talking about drinking. That's one of the reasons you're thrust into that spotlight from 03. All of a sudden you're capped in all those things. You just drink less because you're on show. Just in case. Expectations of, you know, you're held to higher expectations now than any other human being on earth. If you're in the spotlight and if you're a sportsman in particular. And that's okay.

2:06:39And you have to accept that. So you're aware of it. So yeah, absolutely. So I had an eye out. and all of a sudden you sort of have a group of girls attach themselves to your party like this is a bit weird lads be sort of careful and then at the end of the night yeah someone someone confronted us and tried to create a story out of out of nothing I mean it's just yeah it's crazy how people operate in that because I never understood it I know like when you see I don't I'm not a celebrity I don't class myself as a celebrity. I was good at what I did and therefore people know me for it. But, you know, there are individuals out there that go out to earn money off of taking people to actively creating a situation where they can take you down.

2:07:29I remember seeing, you know, you see newspaper articles where, you know, someone's been caught doing this or, you know, such and such. You know, I was asked to apologize for something I didn't do by my club. I was like I'm 100 % not apologising for that because as soon as you apologise for something you haven't done it's like Lewis Moody apologises for what was it? was it an undercover sting? was it a newspaper? it was just a set up it was a chap that had he'd obviously gone out there for a certain reason and was trying to make some money off the back of creating a story and I believe planted a load of girls in a group to try and get a story, that didn't happen so then concocted another way of doing it and then they go to the club, tell you what's happened.

2:08:14Do you know what? That's not a story I want to get into. It fucked me off. I remember, mate. People are that low. That low to go that low to earn money to stitch you up for nothing you've done. I remember. I remember you're fuming. And the stress that it creates in your life, like for months. Is that stress because the papers are now jumping on you? I haven't done anything. Yeah. That must be more annoying. And then it's stress because you've spent a career building, you know, behaving in a certain way. And, you know, none of us, you know, none of us are perfect. And that I'd accept. But, you know, you spend a lifetime and a career doing something and then someone tries to stitch you up for something that you haven't done.

2:08:56You know, that's the unfairness sort of trigger again, isn't it? you know but that's the i suppose that's the that's the reality when you're in a professional sport is that you are you are fair game and you are held to a different set of standards than anyone else and you just have to accept that um it doesn't make it easy um and yeah that was i was fucking raging at the time but yeah that's not something that's not because it gives air to people that so they shouldn't even give it yeah yeah yeah but it was realization that you know The stuff that you hear about people isn't always true. The expression there's no smoke without fire isn't true.

2:09:31I'm sure it is in some cases, but my experience is that there are just horrible people out there ready to create. Tell me some of the stadiums around the world you absolutely adore playing in for atmosphere. Well, the most horrible place I've ever played was a place in Argentina. I can't remember the name of it. It had a five by five meter trench around it, separating the fans from the pitch and probably a 20 meter high fence with what looked like barbed wire. Although I'm imagining it can't have been barbed wire, but it might be. It wasn't one of those things you studied pre-game. And I was like, fucking hell, why do they need all this?

2:10:11And you come out on the pitch and Charlie Hodgson, I think was the kicker, like when he stepped up to kick the ball, literally everything landed at his feet. It was like anything that fit through the fence landed at his feet. coins, bends, bottles, anything. I was like, okay, fair enough. Welcome. Yeah, welcome to Argentina. I don't know, if I had to choose one stadium globally that I loved more than any other, I love the Principality, so Cardiff. Brilliant. That's the best atmosphere. They do it well, the Welsh. They do it really well. Their rugby, at the minute, you feel sorry for them because it's a tough spot, but the stadium is always awesome.

2:10:48They've got that sort of American razzmatazz. You turn the lights off, yeah, They put the spotlight on certain teams. Roof closes. Yeah, it's cool. It's brilliant. And as a player, you probably don't appreciate his fans, but all the noise, all the singing that you do, that goes up, hits the roof and just dumps in the middle of the pit. So you get all that sort of noise and, you know, you're immersed in it. Do you know what's going on? When you're playing, do you know what's going on around? Do you know the songs that are singing? Do you hear anything? Or are you just like, does it feel like you're just homed in between that white line, just playing 80 minutes of rugby, I could be anywhere, I could be in any pitch, do you actually get the vibe and the feel when you're actually playing rather than before you're about to play when you're warming up, you're seeing it all.

2:11:30Yeah, 100%. You do. The fans, you know, everyone talks about, you know, the 16th man or the 12th man in cricket or whatever it is, but the fans have a huge role to play. They do. And believe that because, you know, as players, it doesn't mean you hear everything that's going on, but at certain times you feel the energy. I'm a big believer in energy is like how you turn up, the energy that you present. You know, what energy do I want to receive from you? That's what I need to bring to you so that I get it back. It's infectious. And, you know, so stadiums are the same. Like if the crowd are energetic and they're buzzing, you sense it.

2:12:05You sense it. It's quality. And especially like you've got a guy like Jason Robinson or Henry Arundel or people that are electric on the ball and the ball's in the air and you're running back and you can like almost hear the crowd. Yeah, okay. even though there's probably not much noise it's like yeah but equally on the flight on the flip side you know if the crowd are having a shit time and they're thinking this is awful i remember getting booed off against argentina where at twickenham and twickers and you know that you hear that probably even more strongly than you hear the positives for all the reasons that you You know, the human brain just isn't built that way.

2:12:45And I think that's okay, right? The fans need to be able to share what's acceptable and what's not. And at that time, they deemed that, you know, that performance wasn't acceptable. And I think it was fair. I remember thinking afterwards, you know, we definitely weren't at the races. We need to sort that out. I think I probably said that on the TV, but no. On the TV. do you remember do you remember do you remember like you come on board as ambassador for viper 10 sportswear yeah oh i forgot that yeah i said that should i no no no no no no no not at all no because do you remember do you remember you can tell the story you can tell us i don't know which one you're saying go ahead we've got a load of stories well one of them was with um you're on bbc and they go there's like five million people watching and you had a big black viper 10 jacket a big jacket pulled up and a big Viper 10 there and the BBC were like you can't wear any brand on that right Lewis the side of the pitch 3, 2, 1 we're now live you're like Viper 10 just there yeah I mean it wasn't it wasn't the best it wasn't the best decision ever mate they didn't do any more after that but no well because we started skipping the eyes with Nike for what best part of 10 years I think and then you created Viper 10 and we're like look you know do you want to come over you know support this I was like do you know what why not at the latter stage of my career anyway.

2:14:05What was it, 2010, 2011? Probably 2010, I think. It was when I moved to Bath, wasn't it? Yeah, maybe, yeah. It was you as the rugby, England rugby captain. We had Pamela Cookie who was the England netball. Yeah, that's right. And there was a lad there that did all the skills stuff that I see on, he does all the social media, football tricks. Yeah, he's on YouTube. He does all the tricks. Yeah. I can't remember his name. And at the time, he was sort of a semi-pro footballer so he came in. And we did that big video shoot and he was doing all the keepy up. That was a good time. It was. It was a really good time.

2:14:35Yeah, what was the point of that question? Just you being even... No, but no, because it's been sold six years ago. You were talking about the... And also the Red Bull. Remember the Red Bull when you were allowed to drink Red Bull? Again, there's another example of a terrible decision that I made. What was that then? Did they say... Was it because England were sponsored by LucasAid, was it? That's exactly right. And they said you can't put Red Bull, but you were sponsored by Red Bull. But the problem was they had Red Bull in the changing room constantly. so I mean that was totally my fuck up is that when you 3, 2, 1, record, go, clap anyway great game we have yeah I suppose if it had been planned I'd be sort of I'd be happy with it but it was one of those where you're in the changing room and you've got all the sort of drinks around you and whatever you win the game the media guy comes in and goes come and do a TV interview you know okay cool come in I got fined about 6 grand did you?

2:15:31yeah yeah yeah but RFU fined you? they did yeah I mean I was terrible with sponsored stuff it was no I think people thought that I mean it was just a who paid that? I can't remember actually Red Bull let's take the six grand yeah I think they would yeah I think they would have paid it I remember another time when we were out we were me, you, Sporzy and Annie's brother Muggers yeah like when you were playing you only had like very short windows didn't you of being able to do stuff away from rugby. Yeah, yeah. And I think we came down on Tuesday night and we went out for a meal in Wandsworth at this posh restaurant.

2:16:08And again, I think you must, you were in cast, I think. Again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we were having a quiet one. Come on, boys, just have a glass and it ended up not being a glass. They are the best nights. They're the best nights. You go out. And we ended up back at Sporzy's place. We started at seven. We're back at Sporzy's place. Does Sporzy get a lot of air time on this podcast? It was actually paid. He's paid this bit. But I had the biggest meeting my life with the title sponsor this is 2008 and I was meant to be in Windsor at 10 a.m. and I thought I was just going to go for a nice meal glass of wine in bed by 9 p.m.

2:16:44and you remember in the morning we woke up and I meant being Windsor at 10 a.m. and I had like 50 missed calls on my phone and we're also living but and oh my god I've got the biggest meat of my life and bless her Sophie at the time when him took it. She was heard miscalled, where are you, where are you, where are you? Oh, mate, I do remember that. Do you remember that? We took a door off the hinges somehow as well in one of those, yeah, muggers. Rugby tackling each other. Was that your flat? No, that was, I don't know whose flat it was, but we're all, yeah, we all just piled in there. That was very amusing.

2:17:16That was, I remember falling off a chair thinking I was sober. Now, you fell off a chair in the restaurant. Yeah, yeah, that's what I mean. I was like, I don't remember being pissed. I just fell off the chair. I was like, oh shit. But those nights are always the most fun, aren't they? off the cuff. You woke up proper panicking though. I was sweating, mate. We hadn't got to bed till four in the morning and I was meant to be in the biggest meeting of my life with an international sponsor. Lucky we got the deal over the line, thank God. Thank you, Sophie. Mate, it's good, yeah. It's good to know that we're all, you know, I think there's always this sort of, people think there's some sort of perfect way of doing something or there's, you know, actually, we've all got massive sort of...

2:17:51All quirks in our own way. Yeah, yeah. And make mistakes and, you know, figure it out and that's the way we find a way everyone finds the way right if you want it and you really want it you will find the way and no matter how many things go wrong you know and you gotta find the funny side in things well yeah you gotta enjoy the journey enjoy the journey but a part of i think sometimes i know whether you feel like this you know when people say enjoy the journey it's almost like yeah you're sort of dicking around and stuff that's not you know but really enjoy it yeah that's where you develop you become into a different person yeah but the enjoyment comes from the sort of growth that you make yeah which you which you can look back on agree and and when you then achieve at the end of it and you realize that the every step that you took there created your personality you are today yeah or your contacts or whatever reward for the effort that you've been comes from you know it doesn't always happen yeah but you know when it does it's quality and it's that yeah that's that part of the journey so that's what i enjoy about the journey when you know also you know having you know nights away and silly stories to share where stuff's gone wrong, where you've, you know, missed a 300 grand from anything because you went out for a couple of...

2:18:59In my 20 hours, how old I've been? In my late 20s, early 30s, yeah. Was that 2008? I should tell you in terms of that, so my first ever appraisal at Leicester was with, so Dean Richards, John Wells and Joel Stransky, all gods of the game. Joel was Southampton, World Cup winning fly-off. And they were all my coaches and I was 19. second season first season you know I'd scored two tries in my debut had a bit of a become the youngest player ever to play at Leicester so it was sort of a groundbreaking season for me second season is always a bit trickier so we had the end of year review I'm 19 in a student house you know part time student you were at De Montfort weren't you?

2:19:41yeah De Montfort University doing a business degree yeah shout out to all the teachers that helped me through that I never finished it obviously but they tried and I got a phone call my housemate got a phone call John Dinsdale was like uh he came knocking on my door Lewis Lewis we've been out for a curry on the piss all night the night before it was the end of season and uh I was covered in like curry sauce and stuff and uh he was like Lewis Lewis uh it's uh Mr Richards on the phone I was like who's Mr Richards he was like it's Dean Richards you dickhead I was like oh shit what does he want he was like you're supposed to be in a uh in a in an interview appraisal 15 minutes ago i was like oh my god i was made and i hated being late for stuff like because because i hate being sent attention for anything so that meant oh no so i got in my mate so ali who had uh who lost his leg because he had one leg so he's had the pedals reversed on his car his was the only car available i was like fuck right ali i need your key he's like no you can't have it i'm gone mate see ya so i took his car to me about 15 minutes to get there because you break and accelerate around the other way i was like this is carnage how do I get oh well they flipped them because yeah yeah okay yes because it's yeah yeah so auto because it was automatic so I can't remember which which way around it was but either way so the accelerator was where the brake was and vice versa so um I got to training walked in and uh yeah 20 minutes late at that point I was imagine that um your first depression as well and Dino and well as he had job i literally walked in and uh they just went get out i was like oh no got a two-year contract this is the end of my two-year contract and uh this is like the moment to you know make sure you impress and do all the right things i was like oh no they're gonna fire me this is awful and i walked in and i can now looking back they were obviously looking at a sort of old school dressing down you know um they were probably deciding whether it was worth keeping me or not and uh they walked they walked in and i literally had curry down i was in shorts a white t-shirt looked like an absolute mess and i was hung over and uh they were just looking at me like you're in absolute state aren't you a state and uh and one of them i can't remember who said something like look also only are you living like a student i was a student that's just fair point i wasn't i wasn't professionally minded at that point i just didn't get it um you know you don't care about your your physical appearance and that's probably fair like i wasn't wasn't smashing in the gym if anything i was like a skinny chubby at that stage 19 still a bit puppy fat and uh one of them made uh made me like sort of lift lift my shirt to uh to sort of see the rig yeah yeah and uh under under the shirt i had four stub marks that ran across my uh across my like shoulder to my to my hip and i think a couple of them were a bit taken back by it but uh but wellesley just looked at me it was one of the coaches that you know i'm huge respect yeah just as a forwards coach he was awesome um he just looked at me and went i'm mad you're a lucky bastard that's why we're gonna keep you it's how he said yeah yeah i don't know whether they were i'm presuming they were anyway everyone is to shit you yeah yeah they just don't blame them yeah it worked I was like oh man I was I was so embarrassed being late but imagine walking in like because they were three like well so Dean was one of my schoolboy heroes like Wellesley you know played with Joel was a World Cup winner and he turned up 20 minutes late covered in curry sauce for the first ever appraisal then I just thought how is this guy ever going to achieve anything yeah now even on my first England tour it took me a long time now the first England tour was where uh it was South Africa Australia New Zealand 1998 so it was the end of that year what That was the Brutal Tour.

2:23:29Were you on that one? Yeah, Tour of Doom. Tour of Doom. That was it, yeah. Mate, it was savage. I got that so wrong. So wrong. I was desperate to sort of fit in that I just got in with totally the wrong crowd, did too much boozing. And I was in like a... Like a tour? I've been at a private school where you weren't allowed to drink. I didn't do much drinking. Then all of a sudden you've been out for a year and a half at that point. So I was 19 still. I was still a child, really. My mind, my approach to it. a load of the lads on that tour from the amateur era so the drinking was normal you know that drinking culture i remember one of the lads saying before i went whatever you do don't do what i did on my first england tour and get stuck with the wrong crowd and go boozing all the time i was like right got it so first night we went first night went out on a team meal and i was really conscious of i gotta do the right thing get into bed early you know so i went back to the team hotel like about half 10 and we got back i was with one of the other lads and we sat down like uh where's everyone no one had come back so and then you're like shit should we be out with the team is like bonding thing so we went back out and uh i don't know i ended up getting in at about four in the morning and uh and finding myself in all sorts of uh yeah yeah got back four in the morning i was brutally hung over and i was then ill i'd picked up some bug off the back of it ill for a week oh mate it was mate it was it literally couldn't have gone any worse in all fairness but But some of the lads got sent home for whatever reason I do.

2:24:57They got sent home from the tour? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who? Yeah. We don't know. We're fine now. We'll find out later. Yeah. Was it? What lads were on that tour? I can't even remember. What sort of group of lads was it? Because there was a load of young kids thrown on there. There wasn't there. There was. Who were the senior ones on that tour? Was Johnny on that tour? Yeah. So Johnny would have been one of the youngest. So there was me, Johnny, Josh Lucy, Pete Richards, all sort of young guys. Pete was a great player Great player Great on the smash as well Yeah Yeah well he had a nickname After that tour Which I'm sure he hates Now looking back Which was Bestie As in after George Best Was it Gazza I can't remember which one Yeah it could have been Gazza He's good on the pitch though Great lad But what a player Yeah But tours like that He was He was an unreal player But tours like that Was when So 90s He had the Lions Tour in 97 Where all the legends were made And Martin Johnson Yeah First Lions winning captains South Africa and all that type of jazz.

2:25:55And that was, what was it, living with the Lions. Yeah, that's right. All of a sudden rugby's front and centre. And then come the following year, all those lads have a break. So all the England lads rest. Get a chance. And they put all these young lads in. And there were some of the old boys still around. I think Dorse was the captain, I think, of that tour. He was actually not that old at that time. He had like Gareth Archer. Gareth Archer, yeah. I have a big second there. Steven Jomo, Ben Clark. So still some proper old school legends around. I think Graham Roundtree. Richard Cockrell and then just a load of young lads like me, Alex Sanderson, Ben Sternum, Tom Byme, Dominic Chapman.

2:26:34Dom Chapman, I was going with him. Wonderful he used to look at. Yeah, so these guys, names that you will probably never remember because He was rapid. Dom Chapman was rapid. He was a Richmond I think at the time, wasn't he? He was, yeah. But it was one of those give everyone an opportunity yeah but it was shit I mean god it was I think it was for Clive an eye opener in terms of where he needed to go from where we were to where we wanted to be and 99 World Cup was a progression there and then it was even even bigger sort of mind shift from 99 to 2003 right but that tour there though where were you what do you mean where did you cover Australia New Zealand South Africa so you did you did those three as that squad yeah yeah Savage, mate.

2:27:22Nine weeks. 19. Yeah, it was brutal. It was brutal. But it was the best introduction into what I shouldn't be doing. So what I fucking needed to be doing. It couldn't have been better preparation in terms of understanding, okay, where I needed to go from in terms of where I needed to get to. What was the game that you got spanked? Who was that against? What was the score? Australia, 78-0. Biggest ever defeat. Yeah. 78. Thankfully, that was the week I was ill. Right, okay. first night out. That's probably a result, you know? Yeah, I was, missed that. Oh my God. But I probably would have got, so the guy, so I think Pat Sanderson started ahead of me who was on the bench for the 21s, which was England 21s, which is who we were both playing for at that time.

2:28:04I think he kept in England as well, Pat, didn't he? He did, yeah, a couple of times, yeah. Yeah, yeah, he did, yeah. But yeah, so it probably was, you know, I remember Johnny playing in that game. I think he played at centre. It's difficult to remember now, but, you know, people like Richard Paul Jones played in the back row you know storts of the sort of club game that just when given an opportunity with a load of storts from the club games just there weren't any match for these guys you know and but also just the mindset and the attitude around training and all those types of things you know it it needed to shift if we if we wanted to be really professional and Clive was the best at that although he had you know he had some wacky ideas i remember being in a forward session and you know getting up from doing a thousand scrums you know everyone's bleeding and hanging out their ass and you look over and the backs are running around with brown paper bags on their heads and then you know because there was a you know and the thinking behind it was genius but i don't think you know in practice it didn't work but that was clive's genius is that he was prepared to try anything you know if it meant it would give us an edge extra one and he was yeah that sort of well we'll try it if it doesn't work we can bin it and you know but when you've just been killing yourself for an hour on a scrum machine you look cover the backs are running around the idea was that you boot everyone's got the heads covers they say it's a blindfold but it was bags and uh when the ball's kicked in the air and someone shouts go you've got then take it off and play what's the front of you so there's logic there's logic behind it but yeah you lot smashing each other and see yeah yeah it didn't get brought back i don't remember that one coming back what's the feeling like being picked for the british lions and did you enjoy that tour i really enjoyed that tour i would love of all the things i would love to have done again in my career i would love to have gone on another lion's tour okay man you know playing against guys that you learn to hate want to tear strips out of year on year you know inside out because you watch all the footage of them um you literally try and hate them so that you can get on top of them in an international and then you've got to figure out how to get on with them and you realize actually that they're all decent hard-working professionals like you they want the same things um i yeah i've i could not have enjoyed that more even though we we got absolutely annihilated on that line store so we lost all three all three tests by huge scores um and it was clive's it was clive's sort of i think it was his only line store yeah but um yeah it just you know that as a as a rugby thing it didn't work but mate being involved like coming out of the hotel where you've had your team meeting you walk down the there's the first time and you hear the Welsh and the Irish lads and the Scottish actually cheering for you.

2:30:45Yeah. That was weird. Yeah. It was awesome. And like, you know, just the, the connectivity of it, seeing the fans around town, just getting to know the lads and then playing against them afterwards. That's probably the best bit. Obviously I lived with Jordan Murphy, you know, for a long time. What's a player. Yeah. Incredible. Do you reckon he's one of the most talented players you've ever seen? Easily. Same. Easily. Just what he could do was remarkable. Yeah. And probably never fully appreciated. He was by all of his teammates, absolutely. But Ireland didn't play the game that allowed someone like Jordan the ability to show off his skills.

2:31:18They had the sort of a Sarri South African way of crash ball, high kicks. Although Jordy was unbelievable under a high ball. I remember when me and him first went to Leicester Tigers, he was getting the ball at halfway line doing drop goals and stuff. Yeah, his first game. We were like, what? Stuff that he was doing. What sport he used to play? Was it Gaelic football and running? little dinks up the top and flip he was just another level as a 19 year old kid yeah and he was skinny as skinny as they come I remember that I played that game it was against Coventry and the ball went back to it it came loose out of the scrum we'd probably we'd been scrubbing for half an hour at that point I think and the forwards loved it we'd have another scrub scrub them all the way to the try line and then the ball came loose out the back of the scrum and I think it was Wasali Serevi the Fijian legend who was playing scrum he was unreal and he launched it to Geordie who just sort of ended up with it behind the halfway line.

2:32:12Tom. Just have a go. And Darren Garth, I remember being stood next to him, he gets up from the scrum and he's like, no, what the fuck are you doing? And then like halfway through his sentence, he's like, good, good shot, good shot. But no, you know when you just meet somebody and they're just different. Jordy just had it. Yeah, he was quality. And he had no weight behind him as well. So anyone can play it. But yeah, he was great. But so to go on a Lions tour, you know, with one of your closest mates. That's pretty cool. Where was the next Lions tour? 2005, 2009 with South Africa. Did you have an opportunity to go on that?

2:32:49I didn't. Well, I was very close to being... So what happened? I'd been injured probably four months prior to it. Actually, maybe longer. No, I'd been out for a year. Do you remember what injury it was? I'd been out for a year and a bit. I had multiple injuries back to back. I tore my Achilles, had a hip micro fracture, which is where the hip cartilage sort of gets replaced, essentially. And then I snapped my ankle when I returned. So I had three back to back. So I was out for a year and a bit. I had just managed to get back and playing, but I was only on the bench. And to be honest, I was playing bloody awfully.

2:33:29But I was desperate to go on that tour in 2009 because Tom Croft had just come through and yeah do you know it was just it was a good and also after the disappointment of 2005 to go you know you had Stephen Ferris I mean they had some great players go on that tour so whether it would have gone on or not I don't know but yeah I would have loved to have done that one more time because there's a real connectivity about you know meeting those guys getting to know them building strong bonds obviously going on the piss you know some of the stupidity that you get up to you know we ended up in Taranaki so this is what I loved about the game in New Zealand is that Where was Taranaki?

2:34:05Was that North Island, South Island? I've destroyed your table here, haven't I? That's all right, mate. Taranaki. I don't know where it is. No, I can't remember. I think it's South Island. Was it South? I did a season in Hamilton, which is the North Island. Yeah. Which is student day. I can't remember if Taranaki was up there or not. Yeah. I did geography A-level. I've got no idea. My wife's family lived there and lived there for 20 years. So don't know where it is. I should know. I want to find out. Can we find out where Taranaki is? Just out of interest. cheers just go saw that but yeah one of the things that I've enjoyed about rugby where you don't really see as much anymore so the post game stuff we always used to mix with the sort of opposition and have a beer like the post match celebrations if you were a debutant and you made your debut for your country you'd obviously have to do the compulsory song you know I did what did I do I did you never close you never write any longer was that Everly Brothers or some of the Righteous Brothers yeah and you have to do that either in front of the bus if you're lucky or on stage in the post-match function if you're unlucky, someone judices you.

2:35:11But one of the nice bits about that is that each player, not everyone, but you're within reason. Most players will come up and share a drink with you. They buy it and they share it, so you have like a small glass of wine or half a beer or something. Sometimes someone will stitch you up and get you a pint, shots. um but as soon as the opposition like realized as a debutante they're then coming over and having a drink with you and a chat that's nice it's really cool because again you know like you spend 80 minutes trying to kill each other basically and then afterwards you come and share stupid stories and you have a drink together and i suppose for me in taranaki that was i was epitomized and after the game they were like lads we're going down to the um the the local boozer and they all invite us onto the bus.

2:36:01So all of the Taranaki players on the same bus going to their local pub. And I spent all evening with Chris Marceaui, who hadn't played for New Zealand at that point. And we were chatting and he was like, mate, I want to come over to the UK. Where should I go? What club should I play for? I was like, mate, you should come to it. I actually fuck off going to it. I'll be fighting anywhere. And we were talking about that and then the following year he got capped and we played against each other. So you have all this time in a pub getting steaming with each other, chatting about life and seeing where he's going to go.

2:36:38And then all of a sudden out of the blue, he's pulled into the All Blacks squad. He travels to the UK, plays for the All Blacks. You play against them. Even more competitive when it's someone you've got. Yeah, some sort of bond with. Especially playing against Geordie. So he would have spent all day trying to gouge me because he knew that the one weakness I had that triggered me more than anything if someone tried to stick their finger in my eye. Kind of rage. Yeah. Because it's like unprotected, isn't it? What can you do? So I was stuck at the bottom of a rock. He's like, I can feel these fingers working their way into my eye.

2:37:09I'm like, who is that? I'm like trying to like get hold of the fingers. Like, I'm going to bite you. I'm going to bite you. And then Geordie, Geordie can sense I was starting to lose my mind. And he's like, it's me. It's only me. It's the Irish friend. I was like, you are a dick. Tell me about your latest trip to go to the Super Bowl last week. How was that? I'm out of school it was really cool and this year it was probably actually they have been to the Super Bowl once since then in 2014 but this year they've got a guy called Caleb Williams who got lots of incredible players and just knitted and it was like oh okay so Annie and a few of my mates Sporzy and various others contrived to to get us some Super Bowl tickets which was you know phenomenal and it looked like the Bears were going to make it and sadly they got knocked out in like the in the semi-finals no, quarter-final stage was absolutely gutted because I was like imagine going to the Super Bowl and watching your actual team play so we ended up so we ended up going for four days to Dallas it was wicked it was wicked it looked great fun yeah Tim's hooked it up I think with a load of his contacts we ended up going to a rodeo yeah private jet private jet where from?

2:38:23where was that from? Fort Worth so we took off from Fort Worth we literally left the morning of the game got there just before and then walked to the game. The game was obviously, sadly for anyone that watches NFL, one of the shittest finals ever. But the spectacle, like Americans do big game razzmatazz better than anyone, right? If rugby could sort of embrace a bit of that excitement and razzmatazz, it'd be quality. But yeah, no, mate, it was bonkers. You know, Tins is a remarkable athlete when it comes to drinking. You know, here's capacity. I'd forgotten. Like I said, I didn't drink that much anymore.

2:38:56and they were out there he's like mate yeah and and he's just that he's such a good guy and but he just has this ability to keep going i'm like mate i can't drink like that anymore you know 47 you're 47 you look 57 but and uh no it was quality and i'm eternally grateful to all those individuals like nfl uk had a big hand in it and tins and sporsy and and annie you know it's one of those things where people kept talking to me when i got diagnosed with m &d about sort of bucket list I was like I don't need a bucket list like I've I've done a lot of enjoyment like I will continue to do a lot of enjoyment I'll continue to do a lot of living but you know bucket list has negative connotations to me it's not that I'm unrealistic um but yeah so so that was definitely something that I'd always earmarked to do that um was nice to tick off the list but it would have been uh it would have been even better if uh if it was watching the Bears playing the Super Bowl and it had been a decent close game, which it wasn't.

2:39:54Halftime show was all right. Mate, by all the photos, you had a right laugh. It was, mate. It was cool. It went to the rodeo and Annie enjoyed the Cowboys, got pictures of Cowboys. She made me buy a cowboy hat. I don't know what that means. Hello, say hello. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, mate. Lou, we could go on for hours and hours, mate. I've just looked at the clock. We're kind of up to three hours. Oh, shit. What was the time, actually? Mate, we could go on for hours. We could carry on, mate. This is fascinating. This is lovely. Loving this, mate. Well, I do know it's weird when you chat about stuff with mates as well, and I apologise if sometimes I feel uncomfortable sharing certain things.

2:40:34But it's just nice to sit down and talk about shit, isn't it? Yeah, mate. Is there a... If you had one thing that you enjoyed talking about today, what was it? Everything, mate. I've loved this. Every minute of this, I've absolutely loved. I could go another two or three hours doing this. You're going to cry again? No. I'm not. Here you are. Are you? Yeah. Are you? Oh, mate. I was done. Oh, yeah. I was gone earlier. You'd fully gone. You'd fully gone. I know. I was looking over there for about five minutes. Just look away. Yeah. Mate, it's been lovely to come in. I know we talked about coming in for a long time.

2:41:17Yeah, mate. This is lovely. It's funny when you're mates, isn't it? and you do podcasts and shit like that. But yeah, history's a... It's beautiful, mate. ...it's a fun thing to talk about. Before we finish up here, have you got anything to say to the beautiful Annie and your boys? Oh, man.

2:41:36There's probably a lot to say, but I'm just grateful. I'm just lucky. I have an amazing family. Kids that are loving, kind, hard-working fucking annoying when they want to be um as i suppose i probably am to them but the fact that we just get on so well and have a great time you know it's just weird i always say this when people express uh we're talking about me i just like we're simple people and i just mean that in not a derogatory way it's just we don't yearn for big things life's simple yeah simple pleasures, time with them, laughing, getting out, doing things, experiencing life and seeing people succeed as well, seeing the boys find their feet and their journey.

2:42:26Dylan's off playing football, signed his first pro contract and how cool is that? Southampton and now England, unbelievable. Yeah, mate, he's flying and he's had his own ups and downs already, fractured back, he's glandular fever so you know he's going through his own journey which is awesome and he'll learn you know how he adapts his mind to progress and wherever it takes him Ethan just started his rugby journey so he wants to play for Bath you know that's his absolute goal he's just started in the pathway there so when you see them find what a player well Ethan come in I've seen him tackle me he's got he's taken off his old man he's the angry gene he was an angry gene yeah Dylan's got the Dylan's much more considered yeah yeah Ethan's got the angry gene I think it's probably it's the perfect fit both of them yeah but no mate what would I say I'm just I'm grateful lucky you know loving family that I appreciate greatly and yeah and Annie what a rock over the years what a rock I have been very lucky you're saying you're trying to make me cry again aren't you no you are you're just like what can I say here that's going to not at all no I am I am lucky I'm lucky I hope I didn't seem insincere she is phenomenal woman um you know just well yeah when you when you put in situations like this you need strong people around you and i feel lucky that you know i know i'm i'm sorted with that with annie and uh you know whatever the future may look like yeah she she'll be there and uh you know when you chat anyone else that's had these types of conditions or diagnoses, then what I've found they tend to say is that those close, supportive, loving individuals are the ones that you need, the only ones you're going to need, because they'll be there no matter what, and that's family I suppose isn't it and yeah mate lucky man as you are with with Fleur and Alf I feel I feel blessed and blessed and that sounds very religious doesn't it but I feel like I do feel lucky yeah I do feel I do feel lucky because 20 years it's a strange one I don't like to think about time too much we always spoke about it for years remember absolutely it's always annoyed me yeah same I got annoyed by time because the pressure it puts you under when someone's like right you've got to get it done by this It's like, why?

2:44:53Why don't you leave me alone? Fuck. I mean, it can be sort of focusing, can't it, in terms of you need to achieve something. But equally, it's like a target that you sort of, I don't know, it's like when you're born, there's this sort of target that you're moving towards, actually, if you didn't have any of it. Hey, this has gone fucking random now. Oh, mate, it's good. Yeah. It's good. This has been really nice. Mate, I've loved it, mate. I've loved every minute. Lou, you're a superhuman being, very humble. You're loved by millions. You've got a lovely family and lovely friends around you, and you've got this.

2:45:21Cheers, mate. Yeah. love your bits mate love you too man nice one man thank you cheers for coming in that's alright have a hard time pleasure I've been nearly a piss for about an hour and a half mate I love that love that hi guys I really hope you enjoyed that as much as I did can you do us a favour and leave us a review as it massively helps us grow the show cheers guys

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