#337. London Hitman & Enforcer - Mark ‘The Beast’ Epstein

0:00There's one guy, he actually hit me with a baseball bat. I'll give him the beating of his life. I wanted to kill him. Back then, I didn't give a f***. I'm a reasonable guy. I will try and torture you, but... Can you remember any jobs you went on as an enforcer? I mean, a few hits and that. A few contracts. He'd give me a few contracts and that. Listen, if it's me or you, you're going. You're going. Didn't you end up working at Dawson Barrier? I was the head of security and I was a crack dealer. Everybody's got haters, but if you haven't got haters, you're not doing something right. I'm not trying to be famous over this bullshit.

0:32It's just my life. Let me tell you this story real quick. My first night security, there was a guy there that night who shot Paul. And that was it, mate. It went f***ing off. There was like just bodies all over the pub, mate. All around the pool table. We've run out the door, flashing blue lights coming down the road. Mate, that was mad. I'll be honest. I hit a few, knocked a few out, perforated a few eardrums, broke some jaws. I know he was wrong, you know.

1:11Welcome to the Eventful Lives podcast. I'm your host, Dodge, and I'm the founder of Bournemouth 7s, the world's largest sport and music festival. On this podcast, I speak to proper characters of all lived eventful lives. do us a favor and hit that follow button and be sure to check us out on youtube instagram facebook and tiktok at dodge woodham where we've now had over 100 million views epi welcome back to the show mate cheers dodge pleasure to be here brother well that first one was uh unbelievable the numbers that it's got on youtube and all the comments and at the end of that first one i said if anyone wants a part two please let us know and there have been literally thousands of people are going, you've got to get Epi back on for part two.

1:51You've got to get him on part two. So here we are today. I think we're about a year later now. How was it for you after the first episode when you come and told your story? Yeah, it was good. 99 % positive. I had maybe that 1 % that wasn't so positive. Some people made a few threats, a few death threats. but I had maybe I had three three different but one of them yeah I was concerned really concerned the other two not so much because maybe because of our friendship and I thought you know it's just it's just heat in the moment type thing but I don't know I don't know I've got to tell my truth I've got I've got a story to tell I've got to tell my story I want to do it for my children not not I'm not trying to be famous over this bullshit.

2:48It's just my life. It's through the care system, through my life as a criminal in the 80s and the 90s and then, you know, and then my cage fighting and then into stunt, into film. That's a story. I mean, it's, you know, and some people, some people were part of that. You know, I was good for them. I have a story to tell, especially for the kids that are going through the care system, you know, that are going through the rejection and shit like, you know, it's important. There's so much shit going on now and abuse with the grooming gangs and things like that. And a lot of it is about the children in care.

3:38They're the easy victims. They're the easy people to, because they haven't got anyone they can talk to. They've got a social worker. Their parents are on drugs or they're fucking in jail. You know, so this is a very serious subject for me, being someone that spent 15 years on and off in care. From what ages? From the age of two, up until the age of 18. I was, I was, from the age of nine to 18, I was, I was, um, like London, Murray and Lewisham were my legal guardian. Yeah. When I, when I was 18, I was in prison at the time and I got my last visit off my social worker. And like, if I would have been on road, I would have maybe got a flat.

4:26I would have made, but there was nothing she could do for me. So when I came out of that prison the following year, I was on my own. I had no support, nothing. and I didn't have any positive role models in my life. I had no direction. I had no one to look up to, no one to really emulate. I had my sister's boyfriends. Where was your old man? Fucking tough. I don't know. He was, I don't know where he was, but he's looking after his other children. He wasn't looking up. Me and my brothers, we didn't get no, you know, we got nothing. And I know that was a main part of why I got into crime, you know, had anger issues, you know, and didn't have direction because I didn't have the role model.

5:23Didn't have anyone. I mean, you know, my sister's boyfriend, Chas, because I've got an older sister, she's half Indian, and she was with this, not that matters, but, you know, she was with this Asian guy, Sikh guy, and he was a lovely guy, man. He was proper London fella, you know. His family came from Kenya and he was maybe the closest thing I had to a positive role model. But even he wasn't that positive because he'd go out and get on it and fucking end up in tear-ups and fucking get drunk. You know, he was a young Indian guy and they liked a booze. They loved their whiskey, didn't they, the fuckers?

6:15And they are murder around whiskey. But I love it. I've got a relationship with them. There's plenty of them in my area, and I love the Sikh community. I'm a big fan of the Sikh community.

6:32He was a positive role model to me. Is your old man still about today? He is, yeah. He is. He is, yeah. I mean, we're not very close. I know he's got the hump with me at the moment because I didn't go to his sister's funeral. I've met her once. I've met her once. I don't know the woman. I don't really know you. You know what I mean? It's like, and you want me, like me and my brothers, we're just not, you know, because we're not part of that family. Like I've got other brothers and sisters, black brothers and sisters that call him daddy. Yeah. And, you know, and they had that relationship with you.

7:10I never had that. I have fucking brought myself up, mate. I see, you know, I was on fucking front lines at 16, 17 front lines, fucking like doing my own thing, selling drugs, you know, trying to survive. I was stealing from, you know, I had to because as soon as I come home from school, I mean, I was boarding school here, this manner. But when I got back to London, when I came home and it was a fucking big mistake, 83, I went home. And I should have stayed. I should have stayed in my boarding school. I was doing so well with all my qualifications. I was doing really well, but I wanted to be with my family.

7:55And we'd been separated for fucking maybe, what, nine, ten years. The whole family had been separated. Two brothers went there. Two sisters went there. I went over here. So all of them were in care homes and you were split. We was all fostered. All the brothers and sisters were fostered homes. But I was sent to boarding school because maybe I had ADHD. I had fucking bipolar or whatever the fuck. You know, they couldn't diagnose it back then. They were just called maladjusted. So when you look back now as a 55 year old, 58 year old, 57 year old, do you look back and look back at your childhood and in the care homes is there still things that have gone on in that care homes that shouldn't have happened definitely yeah definitely like what like it wasn't I couldn't say it was abuse because it just I mean I had sexual experience with a married married woman teacher

8:59mad it's like she groomed me you know I got there I was nine years of age and she groomed me maybe over a couple of years and you know it was just mental mental it was crazy I have a lot of people say to me that I should I should like report her to the police but it's like I did love this woman I genuinely loved her you know we had a relationship for it was about three four years that I was actually in the school. I got there when I was nine and it was just after my ninth birthday and I left. I think I was 12, 12 and a half. How old was she? I can remember she was about, when I first got there, she was about 26.

9:50Bloody hell. She was married. She was married to the head of my, I mean, I feel like I want to expose her, but I don't want to because I don't I don't want to say I wouldn't want to see her punished for some reason I would I would like to you know just get some is she still about yeah I think she is um because what my partner did a search for her because uh she's a social worker now and her husband is a social worker uh I mean her husband was was actually studying to be a social worker when I was in the school and he'd have to stay at Southampton University overnight. So they lived on top of the school.

10:37They had a flat on top of the school, a studio flat on top of the school. And we had a night watchman and he'd stay up till about 12, 12.31 o 'clock and then make sure everyone was asleep. Like it was dormitories. And I'd just wait for the night watchman and then I'd creep up to a flat. and she'd leave the door open. I'd get in bed with her and, you know, she'd use me for a gratification. And obviously it was fun, you know. She was a very attractive woman. But this is between the age of nine and 12. Yeah, she groomed me up until I was about, I'd say, 10, 10 and a half. How mad is that? And then, yeah.

11:21So a 26-year-old is getting turned on by a fucking 10-year-old? Do you know what? I think she was just a fucking nympho, to be honest. Because there was a member of staff there, and I know he was having a go as well. He was an ex-crew. Yeah. Mr. Thorn. I'm going to say Mr. Thorn, because Barry Thorn, he was proper. He was passionate, born of support. Right, okay. Passionate, born of support. Is he still about? I doubt it. I doubt it very much. What was her name? her name was Stephanie that's it I'm just going to say Steph Stephanie you know she was married to the deputy the headmaster not the deputy headmaster she was married to the headmaster's son these were like four different schools there was there was Hill House that was at Rope Hill in Boulder.

12:26It's just between Brock and St. Limiton, right in the middle of the pair of them. And then they had another school called Boulder Mead. I mean, the main guy, I don't know if he's still about, I doubt it very much, Victor Reed, his name was. We used to call him Bald Eagle. He had a really shiny fucking bald head. And like he'd been, And a lot of the headmasters in the school were ex-military. They'd fought in World War II. And they was all the same in regiment and shit like that. So Victor had one headmaster over here. So it was like Boulder Mead, Hill House, Southlands. They were all in the same area.

13:11They was all around Limit and Broca. They was all mainly around Limit. And then we had Pax Hill, which was owned by Lord Baden-Powell. It was his old, he did the Cub Scout. This guy bought his, and these were massive. How were you feeling? Like, did you know what was going on at that age? No, I just didn't know what was going on. I just felt like, you know what? It started off, she was like my mum. Because I was missing my mum. I'm nine years of age. I've been away from my mum for a while. you know and I was what 7, 8 when like my mum got divorced she got into abuse, she married this guy he was really abusive they used to fight all the time, smash the fucking place up, we were homeless so the council said look we'll take your kids you look after yourself then for a couple of years I was fostered, I was homes and then I started being really naughty in my homes and and, uh, they thought, do you know what?

14:14Send him to a boarding school where he's got to stay there. Yeah. Because at the home I was like, maybe running away and, you know, I'm like seven, eight and I'm doing burglaries and I'm fucking like seven, eight, you know, smoking fags and fucking just wild shit, wild shit. Just hop in school every day and fucking do magic getting nicked. And, um, so they, they was like, nah, send him to, let's lock him off. So it was like a junior prison. There are bars on the window, wooden bars across the windows. Yeah, it was mad. When did you first start learning to fight? Oh, every fucking, from foster homes.

14:58From, you know, every foster home I went in, I was with another family or their kids. And then the schools, I had to start attending schools. So different schools. every school I went to I had a terror I was fighting every school that I was going when did you know you were good at it? I never really I never really thought I was good at it I just thought that I never I mean I never really thought I was good at it I just like kind of just got to like it and got to enjoy it and didn't mind it you know didn't mind getting having it whether it was a straight more straightener yeah I mean never really tools Tools didn't really start coming into it till I was in my teens.

15:41You know, tools never got used. But when I was a kid - What sort of tools would you be using in your teens? Knives, dusters. I mean, I started carrying that. I started carrying that. Because I think that's a phase that a lot of children go through, especially when you haven't got anyone. When you've got no one, and that's another reason why the kid, because you're looking for that family. You're looking for that love that you never had. So you're more willing to join that gang, to be part of that gang, because you're getting a bit of love. A bit of co-loss. Yeah. As long as you're fucking loyal in your game and you show, you know, you've got some balls, then you get love, don't you?

16:24But, I mean, people are used for different things, but I always had to fight. I was always fighting from the schools. I was going into schools that one time. Isle of Sheppie. I was fostered on the Isle of Sheppie, 76. I'll never forget. It was one of the hottest summers. It's lovely. It's down on the coast. And that was my nickname in school, Jamaica. That was my nickname. Because that's all I really knew about my dad. He was from Jamaica, you know. And I had an afro. I had a big afro. But I was, you know. And so that was my nickname. And I love football. I love football, you know. I mean, I had a child for Chelsea in 83.

17:03three. You know, I really did love football. I used to play for a team from around here called Lawrence Boys, and they had a really good team. Paul Ryder played for the team above me, and he scored the FA Cup winning goal. But Paul Ryder was probably the most famous Lawrence Boys footballer, but Barry Thorn did that for me, because I played for the school football team. Me and Marcel Kelman, I don't know if you know Marcel Kelman, but Marcel Kelman he was a year above me he played for Lawrence Boys he was actually from he actually stayed down here after school because I bumped into him at fucking Spearmint Rhino I was down there on a stag do and he was the manager of Spearmint Rhino but yeah I love football when did it get really naughty for you like you come out of the care homes were you angry after leaving the care homes knowing what you'd gone through?

18:03Or were you just bang on drugs and getting in this violent world? When did it get really naughty? Was it in your 20s, 30s? When did it really crank up to another level? In the 20s. In the 20s, it started, you know, it was all about this state called Barnfield Estate for me. Whereabouts? That was like the centre of the universe. It was in Plumstead. It was a front line. And this front line, it was known for fucking, the whole half of South East England knew about this front line it was Barnfield Estate in Plumstead it was a hot fucking hot spot for everything I mean armed robbers there was armed robbers fucking prostitutes any type of gangster street fighter drug dealers it was fucking the place was was mad you know there was so much drugs getting sold through that estate.

18:57And it was mainly hashish at the time. It was mainly soap barbed, Moroccan. There was a bit of coke, there was a bit of brine, not so much. I didn't see it that much. I mean, but it started getting prevalent, the class A, when you started hearing people started getting shot and killed over fucking kilos of work, kilos of sniff, you know then you kind of knew that this cocaine was a serious thing. I mean I didn't really know about cocaine until about 85. I had my first experience with cocaine myself. At what age roughly? Yeah I was 16. Okay. That was the first time and it was a yardie. This yardie Don he took me under his wing.

19:44I was like his son Ken. God rest his soul. Yeah he was my girlfriend at the time She lived in Richmond. Her mother was seeing this guy, Ken, and he had a few shabins in Halston in West London and Harrow Road over there, Kilburn, round there. And yeah, I actually bumped into one of my good mates, Ian Ellis, he was from Halston. And years later, I did a bit of bird with his brother, Rodney, in Dover. but um yeah ken was uh he was proper he was proper good stuff but um he died he got he apparently got hit with a gun and it gave him some kind of bone cancer and he passed it was it's a shame he was a proper jamaican don uh him and lloydy bell i don't know i think lloydy bell was still around so if you're still around god bless you but um yeah they were proper uh But they had Shabin's and, yeah, we used to go over to, but he was 85.

20:49So I had a little bit of yardy connection with these guys, with Ken. Was there postcode wars back then? No, not really. Not really, no. Okay. Not really, no. So who'd you be having tear-ups with mainly then on the estate? Was it to do with drugs? Not really, no. No, because my gang, I mean, when I started getting into the shoplifting with the Moneymaker Posse, no, it weren't no postcodes from Woolwich. There weren't really no postcode wars. It was just beefs. It was just like shit happened. like there was a guy called Gary Emmett one of the fucking gamest white boys in my younger years he was definitely one of the gamest white boys he took a beating from a gang, I was there I witnessed it and I didn't do anything, I didn't get involved but he he not only got them arrested the people that beat him I actually dragged the guy off of him like he was badly beaten and I dragged the guy off of him who was on top of him with a house brick he was in full mount with half a house brick smashing it into his face and I dragged the guy off of him it was pathetic it was so pathetic but he took a proper beat in this guy but he came he got everyone arrested that he remembered to took liberties with him and he also came back for revenge himself with his brother and his father I mean there's a guy there's one guy he actually hit me with a baseball bat when he I beat up his friend and he's he'd done me with a baseball bat this fella and Im and Gary he did he was the first one to hit Gary Emmett.

23:05He was the first one to do Gary. He hit him in the face with Arthur Asbrook. He's gone into the middle of the road. Charlton Church Lane is was and he's everyone's just attacked him. I just watched because there was no need for me to get involved. But like I said he got everyone arrested and then he came back for revenge on all the people including me. Even though I didn't do anything he cut me tried going he cut me on my little finger tried going for my face and then I was going into the pub and he's cut me again. So two weeks later I was at a party and I bumped into him and Julius Francis was on the door of this party and he took a beating.

23:52I'll give him the beating of his life. I wanted to kill him. He's one of the only people I've ever really wanted to kill. There's been a few but um thank fuck i've never you know never really gone um nearly did nearly godwin nearly godwin nearly got it i mean that god god was watching someone was watching over both of us that day um who's ever fell at godwin yeah godwin yeah godwin nearly did yeah i pulled i pulled it i was aiming at his head and i was pulling the thing i pulled the thing twice but i didn't take the safety catch off. So thank God I didn't shoot him. You know. What was that over?

24:35Fuck you. Some money. Pennies. Pennies. His friend owed some money over a fucking, we was all in a nightclub. It was, that was, that was a crazy, sand barrier. It was, it was down there. It was mad, mad fucking, mad place. It was fucking cracked up. Loads of Millwall. Yeah. loads of Millwall supporters, loads of crack, loads of brasses. Fucking, we had most probably only had vodka and brandy short and maybe some gin or something and some beer. It was like a mad spill. It was mad fucking one of them, but it was late after hours, one of them ones. And yeah, we had fucking SO19 turn up on a regular basis.

25:23People, it was crazy. It was crazy. The book, it's going to be a very interesting book, Dodge. Trust me. Sand Barrier alone, the book, it could be a book, mate. Trust me. Didn't you end up working through Sand Barrier? I was the head of security and I was the crack dealer as well. I was the crack dealer there. I've had, you know, I did security. I used to do security back in the day because they knew you was a tough guy or you was game and, you know, you had a bit of sight and you had a bit of sway around the area, you knew people. But, you know, ever since SIA, I mean, I've done SIA. I've done clothes protection.

26:02I've got my body, but I haven't got my – I didn't renew it after COVID, to be honest. It's like I just renewed it before COVID and then, like, didn't get a year off. And I thought, you know, you fucking unemployed us for two years. And I paid for it. I thought you should get – Something back. Yeah, I remember. Fucking bastards. Greedy cunts, mate. How would you explain Epi at your peak as a doorman? How would you deal with people? Were you a snapper? Were you a talker? I was a talker. I was a talker. I'd try and talk you. I'm a reasonable guy. I will try and talk to you. But if you overstep the mark or get physical or, you know, get into my, or like become threatening to me, my thing was sleeper I'm really naked choking motherfuckers out and putting them to sleep sleeper and put them to sleep you know try not to but I used to hit them as well I'll be honest I hit a few knocked a few out perforated a few eardrums broke some jaws I know I was it was wrong you know but um did anything come on top you know when you're choking someone out and you know you're in a a club full of Millwall full of full of faces full of naughty people and I know you were one of the naughtiest there was there there must have been times where you looked around and thought do you know what I've got to be careful walking back to my car later on or I'm coming back to work tomorrow and I know there's going to be my 15 lads to turn up or no not really did you not care no because I had the things I had the things mate I had the things put away you know I had them it's like you want to fuck with me if I know you know I was back then.

27:53I didn't give a fuck because my addiction really took the fearless shit out. You didn't give a fuck. You know, I mean, I see it with, I see it with a lot of drugs, with people, with certain people, fighters, see them have the fearlessness before, but then with the drugs, it, it just took their fearless shit to another level. It's like, and then that became their drug. that fucking, you know, that, and they're pulling off the shirt and fucking, yeah, fucking. I mean, a few times, one time at Doriton's, used to be the Tunnel Club. Lee had a problem. Me, Lee, Paul, another guy, Frank, a couple other people.

28:47We went round, Mickey was there, Big Mickey. we went round the club and fucking Liam Paul smashed the place up they smashed the club up to pieces the bouncer's run for their life there was Millwall coming out of that club Doritans loads of Millwall coming out and Lee got the top off fucking what's mate I was just standing there with a hoodie I just put my hands in the thing but maybe it was like watch it watch it he's got a thing like I didn't have a thing but just you know gave that look yeah and But Paul, he did every single, he picked up the barriers. He'd done fucking every window, bust open the doors.

29:27The security was running for their lives, mate. That was a mad turnout, that one. But that was Lee performing at that time. He was performing and building up his reputation. Okay. Why would they smash the club up? What was the? Because of security. He had a problem with security giving him some grief. and he went around, he rounded up a few and we went round there and he did what he, and then the top was off and fucking, he was flexing and performing and, you know fucking had some mad turnouts mate, one to, let me tell you this story real quick my first night security in this pub I ain't going to say what pub it was because the fucking, the carnage but anyway my first night I've invited a few people I've invited Lee Paul Paul came with his uncle he had his uncle Robert who's a fucking lump he's like he's like Paul he's fucking massive and weird thing there was a guy there that night who fucking shot Paul who's now doing 35 I think it's 35 years Danny Danny Kelly DK was there that night with me, Lee, Paul and Robert.

30:50And end of the night, right at the end of the night, it's always fucking right at the end of the night, you're kicking out. And I've said something to this guy and his girl, come on guys, you've got to hurry up now. And the bird is fucking, give me some racist, she said some racist remark to me. I couldn't believe it. And then I've said something to the bird, the fella's piped up.

31:18he's said saying as well. So I've ended up chining him and that was it, mate. It went fucking off. It went fucking proper. But by the end of it, there was like just bodies all over the pub, mate, all around the pool table. Like I've knocked out maybe two pool, knocked out maybe two or three. Lee's knocked out about four or five. Danny's knocked out a couple. Robert hit a few with some poor cues and shit. It's gone. Seriously, it was like someone coming with a machine gun and fucking sprayed the place. There was just bodies everywhere. We've run out the door, flashing blue lights coming down the road.

32:03Mate, that was mad. That was my first night. My very first night. I can't remember how I even got the work. It might have been Lee. Lee might have even got me the work Because at the time I was doing quite a bit of security for Lee. He had his own security company called Top One. And I was doing a few bits of work for him. I was doing a big pub over in Blackfen called The Woodman. I was doing Teasing Erith, which was a fucking mad pikey. Like loads of pikey kids. Loads of young, young fucking wild pikeys. and then we'd go back to TJ's. Yeah, it was T's in Erif and then we'd go back to TJ's in Woolwich.

32:50And so there was the Woodman, T's in Erif, TJ's in Woolwich and then I got this fucking, I got the best job I ever had. But I was like half a doorman, half a DJ at this gentleman club called The Mermaids and the treckels in this place. oh my days there was some proper treacle I was it was like the best job I ever had just playing music for these treacles just playing music for these women mate it was it was heavy I nearly nearly cracked on with Sue Ellen if you Renee she was gorgeous Renee did you ever did you ever have a tear up with Lee Murray or close or close to one yeah we did we fell out we fell out once I had I fucking had a mad fight I went out with Charlie Dixon one night and it was his birthday didn't go out with him we had a birthday party for him there was loads of fucking villains there we had this club in it was a restaurant in Blackheath called Pistachios at the time and he had the limo and that I've ended up nicking the limo off of him And we've gone to this club.

34:08I ain't got to say what club it is because fucking, I ain't happy about this. I still ain't happy, man. I wanted to come back. I swear I was going to fucking shoot up that fucking door, man. I swear to God. They took a little bit. I lost two diamond rings. Fucking chipped my tooth. The bastards. But it was my own fault. It was my own fault. I was very drunk and fucking, we've kicked off a back door. I've nicked the limo. I've nicked the, he ain't happy, but he didn't really we've gone to some club it was end of November and we've gone to this club I've gone with two mates two guys and three girls and one of my mates nah he ain't even a mate I wouldn't even call him a mate but he was a naughty guy done a bit of bird for manslaughter he killed a guy in Bexley Eve and we've gone to this club It stabbed him.

35:07It was pathetic, but he got a manslaughter charge. He did a 10 or so. And I ain't going to mention his name because he's a fucking scumbag. He grasped me up, put me in it and got me fucking three years. Excuse my language, I'm just thinking about this guy. But anyway, we've gone to this club. It was a year or two before this incident. I've gone to this club and he did have a knife. I've kicked off the back door of this club and we've gone down this alleyway and at the end of the fucking alley there's about six, seven bouncers there. But we've been drinking champagne and I'm fucking proper wavy.

35:50I've got my missus with me. Him, my mate, and he's got his missus with him. Now my other mate and his missus, they're like melts. They're melts. So it's only me and him. If it goes off, it's only me and him. But anyway, I've gone walking down the alleyway and fucking ended up kicking off. It's kicked right off. So someone's got me in a sleeper and they're choking me.

36:20And I've gone on the floor and fucking they started booting me. I'm getting radios in the back of me and I'm getting fucking... And then I've managed to get off the floor and one of them's got my finger in his mouth. He's fucking trying to bite the tip of my finger off. A couple of diamond rings have come off my fingers and I've lost a pager as well. But that was fucking, that was horrible because I knew my mate had a borer. He had a knife and I thought he would have used it. But no, we just took a beating. And then the next day - Who, you and who? This fucking scumbag. The one who did the 10 for the manslaughter.

36:57like we were having it together at the time because we were selling a lot of crack me and him. We were selling a lot of crack and it was good to, that I've got this guy with me cause I'm, we're working with, we're selling to a lot of dangerous people. Right. You know, so me and him, no one ain't going to try and fucking take the piss. But anyway, next day I've seen, I've seen Lee and, um, fucking, I'm covered in blood and fucking, you know, my ribs are fucking, I've had some broken ribs, lost two diamond rings. I'm not happy. Lee's now fucking tried busting a joke. What did he say? He went, you most really sold them, you most really sold them diamond rings.

37:39You most really shot them for crack. I've jumped up. I've given himself, gone to the body. I didn't go to the face, gone to the body. And, you know, fucking he thought it was a joke. It ain't a joke. I'm upset here, man. I fucking took a beating. I've lost two diamonds. My fucking tooth is chipped. It ain't a fucking joke, but you want to make a joke. He was like that. He'd make a joke out of certain things. So I switched, boop, boop, boop, boop, with a couple of body shots. It's been like, oh, fucking stab you. Oh, fucking. So I've gone to the kitchen, got him and I've given him the knife. Fucking do it.

38:15Dude, fucking do it. And yeah, we didn't talk for a while. We didn't talk for a good few weeks, maybe a few months, but we did manage to sort it out and we got back on track. Another time when I can say we fell out, but it wasn't physical, was when he had a world title fight. He fought Pele at Wembley for the world title and he just stays a world title and we've gone out. There was no after party with this thing. I was offered a fight at this show because Ian Freeman, the pussy, lost his bottle and didn't show up. So Valentin Overeem had no one to fight. Someone offered me to fight for three grand.

39:04I said, yeah, straight away. Like, yeah, three grand, yeah, let's do it. Five grand if you win. I was like, yes, fucking I'm up and going on holiday. But he didn't want to fight because I'm an unknown quantity to me. He don't know me. So he didn't want to take the chance. but we've all gone out after, we've gone out we've gone to a club up in the West End and me and a few guys have got in I think me and Jeremy Bailey got in there and Lee couldn't get in he's just won the world title so now he wants to rush the door but I'm in and out now he wants to rush the door or maybe even a bit more I'm out there, I've gone to him nah Lee, come on man, it ain't worth it no ma you're not like us no more you're not rowdy like us no more that was like he hotted me in front of everybody you know it's like nah ain't that I'm just a bit wiser you know I've just come out from doing a bit of Birdly you know I mean I don't want to fucking start smashing up the club because you you can understand the guys the guy who the guy whose club it was a guy called Kian he actually was shot dead in Thailand a couple of years ago, Algerian guy.

40:24He was a bit of a - he could have a tear up. He was a bit of a cage fighter himself, but he weren't letting - he's not going to let 20 guys. Like there was Beerman. Yeah. There was Beerman. It was like, and fucking half of them are cage fighters. Can you imagine if it went off? Someone's knocked someone's drink over and in the club. Yeah. Come on, mate. It's carnage. He's let a few of us in, but he's not letting us all in. So we went somewhere else. We went to fucking Swanly. We went to Deja Vu in Swanly and got mashed up, had a little lock in. But that was the last time we fell out really publicly.

41:03When did you become an enforcer? How old were you when you were really at it? Well, I would have been working for Charlie. Charlie is when I was really - Charlie Dixon. Charlie Dixon is when I would have started, you know, minding, really. He was my main guy. Maybe three, four years I've worked with Charlie. And who is Charlie Dixon? He was a drug importer. How I met Charlie Dixon was through a friend of mine, a good friend of mine. He flew£70 ,000 to New York. He was picked up at JFK by some mafia looking guys. And he had a weekend in the Waldorf Astoria in New York, top hotel, got paid a couple of grand as well.

41:52and then when he came back to England he only went for the weekend he's a good friend of mine so when he's come back he's told me about this that he thought these guys might be mafia and you know this guy he's met in the gym wanted him to fly the 75s and that in his underwear and socks and that so when he's told I'm like who's this guy he's got mafia you need to introduce me so I got to know Charlie we started training at the gym he was a Burmese boy you know he's about 15 years older than me I was what I would have been around 20 around 25 26 and yeah got to know Charlie ended up you know we started going out I started having it with him obviously I'm involved in crime anyway I'm selling drugs and, you know, and people know me.

42:54I've got a little reputation, but - I think you had more of a little reputation. I thought you had a big reputation, right? A very big one. I had a little reputation and, you know, I see this guy and he fucking, he had everything. He had everything and he knew a lot of people and, you know, the jewels, the cars, you know. and yeah, I was attracted to it. So when he wanted me to go out with him on a Friday night, you know, and he gave me a thing as well. I was looking up, you know, yeah, just one thing led on to another, you know, and I mean, I was just helping him. I never helped him out with any of his importations.

43:39I didn't have to. He had enough people wrapped around him to help with the importations. I'd just be with him when he wanted to he'd go and get high sometimes you know because he'd done a little bit of bird as well and he liked that brand I never really was attracted to the heroin I've seen a lot of people I see a lot of guys that I used to idol idol worship worship some of these people and I see this one guy, Kesworth, I loved him to bits mate. Kesworth come out of jail and I see him and the way he started talking to me, he's like, alright bruv, you alright? Like when they talk like that and he's like a bit slow and he had a big scar across his face.

44:30And straight away I was like, fuck, you know, he's on the gear, man. He's on that gear. This guy, man, he was fucking, I used to worship this guy, man. I was like, fuck, you know. and then another time I see my own baby mum my own baby my first baby mum Sue I come out of Dover and I try to get back with her she was with this fucking junkie from Deptford and like I knocked on the door and I see her the way she was talking to me and I was like fucking hell she's on the game and I was like heartbroken on the brown on the brown and I was it's like she's got my son with her you know and it's like it was breaking my heart my fucking and then you know the son was taking himself to school and like she lived on the night floor he'd take himself to school and fucking forget he didn't have didn't have shoes or some clothing issues and so there was it shit was raised me and my mum found out and my mum thanked fuck for my mum you know cause she I wasn't in a position to take him but my mum my mum took him.

45:39I think because my mum made such a shit go with her own kids, she really did. Giving it a good go of a grandkid. Yeah, definitely. He was her first grandkid. You know, I had, when I was in my boarding school, I used to write home letters. I had other kids in my school telling me, I'm an uncle, I'm an uncle. I used to write home letters, but make me an uncle, please. You know, I became a dad before a fucking uncle. How many kids you got? I've got four boys. Yeah. How old are they? My oldest one is 40. So I was 17 at the time. Stevie is 40. And then I've got Jake, he's 28. Tyler of 22. And he'd be 14 in a couple of weeks.

46:25Maximus. Nice. After Maximus, Decimus from Gladiator. Can you remember any jobs you went on as an enforcer for Charlie Dixon? Yeah. Oh, fucking hell. Yeah. A few. I mean, a few hits and that. Yeah. And a few contracts. He gave me a few contracts and that. It's lucky. I mean, there was some guns around and there was some, I was supposed to fucking do a couple of fucking few things, a few hits. Just legs. Not taking anyone out because I weren't really, you know, But not saying, listen, if it was me or you, you're going. You're going. That's how I, you know, I'm not, like, if it's me and you, but I'm not, you know, I didn't never, might have thought about it somewhere in the wildest dreams, thought about being a fucking hitman, but no, not really.

47:18But punishment beatings and shootings, yeah, not a problem. Not a problem. At that time, it wasn't anything, you know. I mean, I was smoking loads of drugs and stuff, but I worked I didn't really want to get into the contract where I'm contract killing people but punishment beatings and stuff like that is not a problem I had a few of them quite a few so give me an example of what Charlie would say to you he'd go there's a job and he'd go to you right I'll give you 10 G's would you negotiate or just go I've got that for you no there might have been a little bit of negotiation but Charlie undercut me loads of times man he fucking undercut me a few times you know he was hard work round a pound note Charlie he was fucking like and if you fucked up he would tax you you know he was fucking horrible like that he was a cunt but were you gonna you know he controlled the purse at the time he was controlling my purse strings so I had to play the game but I mean there'd be different things people have upset certain people that they've said the wrong things and they had to get a message or they was late with payments and you know, it was like that.

48:36Most of the time it was just broken jaws, things like that, you know, broken nose, good beating. So you're going in there asking any questions or you're trying to talk them around to get the money back or whatever, or you're just going straight in and going, well, look, have that. Yeah. It's more, most of the time it was just the, the getting the beating first of all, and then getting, then getting the message. and it's, you know. So the message to get back to Charlie say the job's been done, right? Yeah, Charlie was a funny guy. I mean, look, I can remember one time he fucking wanted me to do, he's with a new treacle and he wants me to do the ex-husband.

49:10Just, just like. What, just for the sake of it? Yeah, kind of. Okay. Like, I mean, it's unnecessary, but, you know, if the money was right, then, you know. Back then, I didn't really have a lot of, but like I said, I wouldn't go to fucking, I weren't thinking about trying to whack people out, but the straps were there and in the legs and things like that wasn't a problem. You know, the big toe.

49:37But yeah, most of it was physical. It was, it was just needs a good beating, break the jaw and give him the message. But we, me and Charlie, we was, you know, he was mixing with a lot of... Is he still with us today, Charlie? No, he's not. No. He died about three years ago. From? For the rest of his soul. From sepsis. Okay. Yeah, blood poisoning. It was liberty. He was sad, man. He just weren't getting... He was a mixture. He was kind of cross of fucking Victor Meldrew. And who was that guy in fucking Sexy Beast? Vic something. Yeah. He was a cross between them two. He was like fucking moaning.

50:21Flash cunt though. flash loads of gold nice cars he loved you know liked to treacle good-looking treacle um but he was hard work like loved to sniff bit of crack bit of brown when the mood suited him he'd have a bit of brown he'd have a boot he'd only boot he'd never inject i never see him fucking on the works but booting it yeah um he was he was hard work charlie especially around a pound note if If you owed him a pound note, you better fucking pay that money. You better pay that money. Or if he bought a car off of you and there was something wrong with that car, you better fucking sort it out.

51:01Or he will blow up your whole car front. Shit like that. He was a loon. He was a loon. But he couldn't physically. He wasn't good physically. So, I mean, I remember we had a routine. We'd go out on a Friday night. We'd go down to the Old Kent Road on a Friday night. I know he still had a bit of beef down there. He had a few stab marks in his neck where he'd had some fights with a few guys down there where they jumped him. So we used to go down there, but I had a ball for PPK gun buried in Marion Park. I used to bury it in Marion Park in Cox's Man. It's like right on a fucking kind of a cliff. so I'd have to abselle down this cliff and fucking get the biscuit tin out the fucking plastic and fucking get the gun that was in the sock and then we'd go down the old Kent Road we'd go in a pub we'd go in this pub the Hairy Lemon then we'd go across the road into this nightclub first one of the night called 903 then from 903 we'd go down to Scribbles and Scribbles was fucking mate if anyone knows about Scribbles one of the naughtiest clubs in South London mate legendary bare gunman bare fucking drug dealers but yeah Scribbles was a naughty gaff we're going there and then top it off we go down to Dillinger's if you know about Dillinger's you know about it's a crack house we'd end up in the crack house and he'd be piping here, I'd be smoking my joints he might have a treacle with him he might have a bird with him it depends but that was our Friday night routine and then during the week we'd train, we'd train most of the week if he had I mean he had a few friends, he had a few proper naughty friends from Woolwich as well one of them we used to call the Iron Man Bill Bill the Iron Man he was he could do the Iron Man but he had the Iron Man for another name he had a shop so he was the Iron Man and then there was another fella old school both of these proper old school guys these were the guys he was doing business with the New York people another guy he had a calf he had a few calves I don't know whether they were fucking in the club like Freemasons or whatever but they were very well connected and yeah they started I mean they were doing their bits of work but one of them introduced him introduced him to this guy

54:00Um...

54:27Mark Epstein: Restrictions apply. See store for details.

54:35And he was the father-in-law of Charlie's partner, a guy called Kimmy. His son-in-law was called Steve. Steve Moore, his name was. And he was a professional golfer. But he found himself in a situation where he was being bullied by a few gangsters. And this Kimmy and Roy, the calf man, asked Charlie if he could help out Steve with his fucking bullies. So Charlie's gone over there with a wolf of PPK and he stuck it on these two guys. And they've kind of stopped harassing Steve Moore. Steve Moore he's a drug importer he's got his own he's got an engineering company that he's using as a front and so now he's working with Charlie they're working together they're partners

55:44Charlie has looked for new customers because they're importing to people. They're importing for more people. But the thing about it - What were they bringing in? Hashish. Okay. It was mainly hashish. There was some sniff. I mean, the sniff, I think, was coming via New York. Charlie's bit of sniff. It weren't that much. It was more, there was some ecstasy coming from Holland with the puff. and with this engineering company from Steve Moore. At the end of the day, Charlie was looking for new customers. It's all greed. It's all greed with fucking crime. It's all greed. You just want it easy. You want it quick.

56:27You know, it's all fucking greed. Charlie's approached a couple of guys. These guys were fucking being obboed by the old Bill. They were being obo'd, yeah. They knew they were being obo'd, but they, you know, they're doing business with you anyway. And so the obo that's looking at these guys, they see you coming and going, so then they're going to get on you. So now they're looking at you and they've seen a few things and then they've seen who you're connecting with. Anyway, Steve Moore has been nicked for these importations. he's ended up in Canterbury. I think Charlie's been nicked as well. Charlie's been nicked.

57:10They're both in Canterbury, but Charlie now has fucking stuck it on Steve Moore and like stuck it on him fucking when he should have just kept him sweet. You know, he stuck it on him. Don't fucking say nothing about, don't mention nothing. Shit himself. The fella's shit himself. He's a golfer. He's a straight goer, half a straight goer. You know, he's around, he ain't a fucking killer and he's just got a good brain on his head. he's melted melted and he's rolled over and he's like fuck this man I ain't do it nah this guy's threatening me and my family and he's rolled over and melted and he's fucking cooperated with the customer next side he's cooperated with the filth and then he's done fucking hundreds of fucking pages of documents and statements against Charlie against all the other guys and there was about six or seven of them nicked for it even his own brother-in-law even his own brother-in-law is fucking stuck it in him yeah it's done him the customer exercising said to this guy have you like they said we've seen your bank accounts you've got a lot of money there and he said to them some of that money belongs to Charlie Dixon like over a million pounds and that is Charlie's and they said look you can keep the money you just give us all the fucking give us everything you've got so he did but now he's gone to trial Charlie's ended up getting 12 views because he went not guilty a couple of other people there's about 7-8 of them they've all fucking been lumped off but only the ones who have gone not guilty the ones that have gone guilty the judges he ain't gone too hard on them but the not guilty ones he's given a bit of birth Charlie got 12 another guy got a 10 or 11 it was 66 importations valued at over fucking 200 million right what year was this roughly this was 2003 he ended up getting the bird anyway some of them have appealed dissent and some of them have appealed the conviction unbeknownst to everyone else there's dodgy fucking customer excise he has been one of the customer excisors who was the main debriefer for Stephen Moore has been found to be corrupt.

59:35He's done saying on another case, but now he's fucking, his judgment and his morals and everything's been brought in and he's been found to be corrupt. So all the bad cases are fucking, you know, his evidence in all the other cases has been diminished. It's like, it's been written off. So they had to free some of these people. Some of them though got compensation because they appealed the conviction. Others didn't get that. Charlie just got let out. I think he did four and a half out of the 12th. And yeah, he tried going back to it. He didn't know when to quit. And this is the thing with greed.

1:00:24you know do you not think like a high percentage of people who get banged up come back out straight back at it again because it's an easy quick hit there is a high percentage I think it's like that it's a phase because I went through a phase in my teenage years where where I was I did like three or four Christmas and birthdays on the truck you know because I didn't give a fuck beyond bar yeah when did you first get into knowing that you were going to be a good cage fighter when was that well it was when I come home after I come home from the three year sentence there was three years for what for drug conviction it was for class A I was selling crack to the undercover feds a good friend of mine introduced me to him it wasn't crack it was more bran I said to my mate I said look I can't fucking sell the crack no more because my habit is that bad I can't I don't want to be around it I can't be around the shit no more it's terrible I'm fucking I said look I'm selling a bit of brand you don't touch the shit you know so if you've got any brand brand introduce me he introduced me to these two fucking undercover old bill and uh I've sold to them you know like Roger Cook used to be with the fucking camera so every time I sold them drugs they was video recording the fucking cell.

1:01:56And yeah, they got 14 from Greenwich and 22 from Lewisham. These two old Bill undercover, you know, they were fucking good. I got the three years, come out of there. But while I was away, Lee started fighting. So I was reading about it in the papers. I remember opening the papers. He had a fight with Alex Reid over at Epping Forest Country Club. and the fucking kicked off went off I'd Alex read on and asked him about that it was madness yeah it was carny my mate was CS gassed up the place was he yeah he was CS gassing up the spanner motherfucker he was gassing up the place he was a riot looked like fun I missed it I was gutted fucking but I see him on the I see him on the on the breakfast TV I see Lee on breakfast TV talking about Valley Tudo he was like a pioneer of MMA and I see him on the on the Good Morning Britain or something like that talking about Valle Tudo and MMA and I remember him telling me on the phone about it Valle Tudo I was like what the fuck is Valle Tudo anyway I come on I see him fighting look good I was having a drink I ain't gonna lie I was having a pint and I had a sniff as well and I was like that's fucking yeah it's like fucking good I was getting And then he was like, come training.

1:03:20We'll go training. So he took me training. And that was it. I fell in love with it. I wish I'd have done, you know. I wish, I wish they'd have had it in my boarding school. Yeah. Like, you know, we did do judo in my boarding school, but I was really football. I was so, I could have been pro. I know I could. I could have played pro football. I know I had the skill. I just didn't, you know, fucking have the. So the cage fighting, when was the first time you got, when is the cage? 2003. I mean, I come home end of, end of 2000 and August. And then within, I started training with Lee, started getting into it.

1:04:03About a year, 80 months, started asking for a fight. They weren't fucking in no hurry to get me a fight for some reason. They didn't think I was ready. By chance, I was put on this, I was signing on. So the dole at the time said to me, go and do this course uptown. So I went and done this computer literacy information technology cleat. And while I was there, I was online and I see this advert for Fighters Wanted at Circus Tavern. So I was like, fuck yeah, let me put myself forward. Now, this would have been actually, it would have been about 93, 94. he was he was I mean UFC was when did it I think it was 91 92 93 around that time and he was he was getting the videos he loved it so he'd bring the videos around to the flat and we'd watch it and it was all fucking bare knuckle and it was like fucking anything goes almost he loved it and but then he did a bit of bird with this guy Polish and Polish showed it must have showed him a couple of moves and he just got He was like, yeah, I want to be like, I want to be.

1:05:16He had a lot of respect for this guy. He'd come back and tell me all about this guy Polish. And then when I went away, he flew out to the States. He got hooked up with a guy called Dexter when he came back from the States, from Pat Miletic and he just got into it. And then when I see him fighting, it was like, yeah, you know, it looks fucking like you could do what you want. and you're not getting nicked. You're not getting arrested. And you're getting paid. Yeah. I mean, it weren't even the paid so much. It was like, you could go and be yourself, do what you want. Like, yes, fucking hell. Where's this been all my life?

1:05:56It's like, but I took the first time, the first time actually in the cage. Oh mate, I shit myself. I ain't going to lie. It was like, nah, this, I thought, nah, this ain't really, like when that door closes, it's the first time I was in a ring my first fight and it didn't last very long I smashed the guy up pretty quick the second fight now I've looked across the ring and this guy from Dover this guy has hit me the hardest proper bare knuckle fight Lee said to me Mark don't fight this guy because the promoter fucking stitched me up but that's the thing with me I'll fight anyone I don't give a fuck I never ducked anyone I never tried to hide from it.

1:06:39I would fight anybody. I don't give, I didn't care. Like, you know, show me the money. Like, you know, it was, it's a way of releasing the demons as well. Yeah. It's like, I never ducked no one. Fight anyone. It's like, but Lee was saying to me, Mark, this guy has had over 40 fights. Yeah. He's a very, very dangerous guy. This was my second fight. This was my second MMA fight. Um, I've done a little bit of judo when I was a kid, a little bit of karate, but nothing really, you know, I just started Thai boxing, you know, but I love Thai boxing. I love the stand up. I love the kicking and punching.

1:07:18But this guy had been a veteran. He'd done K1. He'd done bare knuckle. He'd done fucking everything. What was his name? Craig Hammer. Hammer. Craig the Hammer Hammer. He fucking knocked me out in something like fucking 10, 11 seconds, man. He was at Liberty. I was pissed super pissed because I didn't let him he didn't feel my power I didn't he didn't get the chance to feel my power and just even if I fucking give him a couple just to let him know but I didn't get the opportunity he's he's come out he's kicked me I've kicked him back when I've kicked him back with the right right low kick I've dropped my hands he's jumped in with a left hook and just caught me clean up until then no one had ever knocked me out.

1:08:06No man had ever knocked me out. I'd been knocked out with baseball bat. That was the only thing that had knocked me out. What's that feeling like when you left there? With your tail between your legs, reputation? I was fucking... Were you? I was gutted, mate. I was gutted. How long for? Until the next one. Okay. Until the next one. The next fight, I've got to give Lee his due, mate. Because I didn't even want to take the next fight, really. I mean, I've got to... It's not that I didn't want to take the next fight. Like I said, I'd fight anyone. I don't care. This guy was, I gave away five stone to this guy in this fight.

1:08:38What were you weighing in at then? I weighed in at, I think, 90, 94, 95 kilos. Solid. This guy was 120 kilos. Bloody hell. Okay. Lance King. Massive. What's that? Lance King. What did you say? What did you say? 125. Bloody hell. Okay. No, 120. 120. 120 kg. Yeah. That's what Lance King weighed in. Yeah. This was for the heavyweight. 20 stone. This was for the heavyweight type cage rage heavyweight title at Caesars in Streatham. Yeah. It was, uh, yeah, this was one of my first fights and, um, I was like, fucking this guy's too big for me. And Lee was like, Mark, no, you're, Mark, you can do it. I was like, fucking hell, man.

1:09:19He's a lover, this guy, man. I just didn't want him on top of me. Yeah. You know? And, uh, cause underneath I'm not, I'm not great fucking getting, you know, the wrestling, I wasn't, I didn't like it. I wasn't a big fan of it. I just wasn't a big fan of that part of MMA. But you have to be. You've got to be all around. You cannot rely on stand-up and think you're going to get away with it. Because you know they will take you down like Freeman did to me. Matt Ewing did to me. There was a few of them. Very, you know, they knew what they were doing. They took points to get the point win, not the fucking me.

1:09:56I never wanted the point win. I never wanted to wrestle. I wanted to knock you out. That's all I ever wanted. Bang. Love that feeling, man. Nothing better. The only thing better than that is a female. That's being real. It's when you bang and you feel that connect and you see the guy and he's out. It's like, that's it. That's enough. You don't need nothing else. That's such a fucking, what a feeling. It's like scoring, I suppose, scoring a goal in a good game. You know, it's that, yeah, fuck. It's almost orgasmic. What did that do for your ego when you're banging people out in the cage and what your reputation around London?

1:10:38Well, yeah, it started blowing up. I fought for a few British titles pretty quickly. And then some people got to know that this guy is legit if he'd fight anyone. I mean, it was never my natural weight, heavyweight. I've never been naturally a heavyweight. It's only when I come home and loads of Burger King and loads of beer that I put on the weight. But I'm never a natural heavyweight, never even a natural light heavy. Yeah, but I don't think, I saw photos of you and I've seen a video of you. You were in good nick. You were a big lump, big strong man. I don't think you can just go out and go on Burger King and Coke and whatever.

1:11:19No, no, no. You were training hard. I've always loved the gym. Yeah. I've always loved the gym since 1986. First bird, my first bird, yeah, they put me down the block. I put down the block on my first sentence, and they give you block training back then. It was like one-on-one PT, but these guys are ex-military. So they're trying to kill you with the fucking do this in the circuits. And I started seeing this change, and I was like, yeah. Like, give me more. and every time I've done Bird that's been my main thing you know and I suppose what built me was Dover 1988 I did a two year sentence and I did 16 months out of this two years I did a solid year at Dover and I trained with this guy from Wandsworth called Sean Nugent who was an absolute fucking monster so me and him were trained nearly every day for like a solid year and I would and like I had eggs in the in the in Dover all the like I did I used to have a protection racket going on in Dover I looked after all the all the like the if you weren't so capable I'd take care of you but it's a price it's a pair of it's a pack of Maryland cookies and and a couple of a couple of Ribena carton of Ribena so that was your payment you You know, I want cookies and I want Ribena.

1:12:49So I had four or five fraggles that I was looking after on the wing and I used to look after them and get my shit. But they also like, if there was non-people that didn't eat eggs, they'd come and put the eggs on my bed. So nearly every other day it was eggs, boiled eggs for breakfast, boiled eggs, bacon. And I never really ate the bacon. But the eggs, I used to put three eggs with my breakfast, three eggs with my dinner, three eggs with my tea. So I was getting loads of eggs. I was getting hench. I come out of there hench. So in your cage fighting though, like what was the feeling like knowing you're knocking people out, knowing you're having proper tear-ups, knowing you're on the bill, the top of the bill for a big event and the lead up to it?

1:13:37What was the lead up to that like? What was that feeling knowing the training and the camp and everyone in your ear going, you can do it and giving you the confidence? incident. What was the camp? We'd have some good camps. Remember when Lee fought Anderson and I was fighting Anderson's, I fought Anderson. Anderson was doing the corner for this guy. Anderson Silva. Mate, fucking legend. Legend. One of my for all time. I mean, if he's not in your top three, him, Fedor, Jon Jones, GSP, you know, but you've got to have Anderson. Anderson, he's a legend. But that lead up to that fight, we was training really hard.

1:14:19We were really getting out. We had this guy, Alan Ingerfield. Big shout out to Alan Ingerfield. He was Ironman. He looked after the Brownlee brothers. If you know about Ironman or fucking triathlon, you know the Brownlee brothers. He was training them and he also did the bike thing. Who was the bike? He did a bike thing. it's a Boardman Boardman Bikes Boardman Boardman Bikes Boardman wasn't it Chris Boardman Chris Boardman yeah he was partners with Chris Boardman with the bikes but he sold his share in it but he was partners with Chris Boardman now Alan Ingerfield got to big you up because when you was training me and Lee fucking hell we was fit as a fiddle really fit as a fiddle mate I remember in the third round I had this Brazilian guy on the floor and my my camp my coach Alexei went 10 to the body I'll give him 10 to the body in the third round I was fit as a fiddle how old were you then?

1:15:23I was 36 35, 36 do you think you could have gone on and got to America? if I would have had the right performances if I would have got into it a bit earlier I was a bit late getting into it, look I started at 34 Gaethje the other day that fight what a fight that was Gaethje and Pimlet wicked fight you know that just raised Pimlet's stock man he took a beating he took a licking and kept on ticking what a fight that was mate but Gaethje is one of my favourite he's one of my right now he's probably my favourite fighter you know in the UFC he's just so game he's just he's always swinging for the fences he's looking for the knockout he's very exciting and he's great stand up on the ground.

1:16:12He's just game as fuck. Great fight that was. What age do you reckon you were when you started to slow down, calm down a bit? Or have you not? Yeah, I have. I think in your 50s you have to start thinking about things. Even in your 40s. You know, I'm still Game. Yeah, I'm still game. I'd still, you know, if Misfits come along and said, like, we want you boxing some Ian Freeman like wouldn't be a problem if we if he wanted to have a boxing you know me and Ian Freeman definitely all day long boxing yeah um you know he didn't like the power he didn't like the power when we had the fight so he wrestled he took me down straight away after I hit after I dropped him with the left hook he took me down he didn't want to you know um Bispin you know great fights with Bispin The second one was very close.

1:17:12I nearly had him. He was Rizla. You know, that wasn't a knockout. Grant Waterman even admits it wasn't a knockout. I slipped over. But it is what it is. I couldn't go to America for ultimate fight, and my drug convictions were stopping me from traveling. So, you know, but I took my hat to Michael Bispin. I took my hat to him. He's done well, hasn't he? He's done well. He's done great. I had him on the podcast, I think, last year, maybe. Went up to East London. He flew in for the day and was like, right I want to jump on your podcast and we did a good hour or so nice fella you know in another lifetime me and him couldn't be yeah definitely but um you know good luck to the guy I ain't what did you then move what did you then move on to after the after the fight in when how did you get into the films a friend of mine um like at the time I was doing a lot of gentlemen's clubs even working I was working in a gym but I was doing a lot as well I was it I was up up fucking Tottenham Court Road regular basis Spearmick Rider yeah not not for not just perving on the on the treacles I was up there doing business with a few pals and that so I was up there I had a few pals that looked after a few venues in the West End so he's up there and he said one of them said to me the main one Jay he said to me there's a film some treacle I know some treacle she's asked me to get a load of load of tough looking villains type thing in this in this film and the film's called London Boulevard with Colin Farrell and Ray Winston and we did this pub scene and I'll fuck it we did this pub scene and Colin Farrell's just come home from doing a bit of Bird so we're all in the pub celebrating and Bailey's there, Jeremy Bailey and there's loads of us there, loads of fucking you know, proper people anyway, he's come through, Mitch has come out and I've grabbed Colin Farrell, lifting him up and he's I put him down, he's turned and looked at me and walked off and I thought fuck, what did I do that for?

1:19:21Why did I do that man? And he's like, fucking donut. I've just got sacked. Anyway, he's come back. He's come over walking up. That was good. That was. Do it again. So that was awful. Oh, cool. And then the fucking director has come up to me and he's gone, can you go and pretend to chat this bird up at the bar? So I'm at the bar pretending to chat this bird up. and Stephen Graham is talking to Colin Farrell about me, he's pointing me at that wank and I'm chatting up this treacle. Anyway, he kind of, I don't know, I kind of, you know, thought, it ain't too bad that you're doing this. You know, it weren't great money, but I thought, yeah, I could give this a go.

1:20:08So I signed up for some extra work, done a bit of extra work and I got the first big film I got was for the dark world. so I've gone on I've gone on to this we're at Bournemouth doing this big fucking battle scene and I'm dressed up as a called a marauder and it's like I've got a sword and that so I'm running through now they've got an action I'm running through these explosions and there's fucking and I'm running through and I start chopping up a couple of guys there's a couple of guys with swords and I run into the middle of it and start chopping and they're like what are you doing what are you doing it's like we've got a rudder You can't just run it.

1:20:49Like we're SPACs or we're stunts. I'm like, no, I knew what stunts were, but one of them went up. I'm SPAC. We're acting. He's gone, no, SPAC. I was like, what the fuck is, we're SPAC. Like he's gone, what, special action. I'm special action extra. So I'm a bit, not really extra. And I'm not really a stunt man. I'm a special action extra, but I know some, I've done some stage combat. So I'm like, anyway, just by chance, I bumped into an old school friend of mine. He was, he was a stuntman. He was a stuntman on this film. So I got talking to him, Morris, his name was, and got talking to Mo. And he's going to be, yeah, do these stage combat courses.

1:21:37It's like, if you were, I was like, how do you be a stuntman? And he's going, look, do some stage combat courses. and it will give you the foundation. So I see this stage combat course and the guy was actually saying that this course was going to be part of the stunt register. So if you did this course, it would help towards being a stuntman. And it's a four-parter, this thing. So you get the starter level, then you get the part two and the part three and the part four. It's like Titan and Warrior level. It's all these different levels. Oh, Warrior. He was my favorite WWE. I loved him. But anyway, so I'm doing this stage combat course.

1:22:31And he said it would have been part of the stunt registers. And I've also started doing a bit of, um, a bit of horse riding, uh, which would help for the stunt register. And I've, I've, I've got my martial arts. I think, you know, I'm a British, I've been a British champion fucking three times. That should be enough, you know, a professional, not, not, not, no fucking like pretty boy like pads and fucking, you know, like Taekwondo or, or, or a judo or karate. That's all, you know, this is MMA I've fucking got it straight now it's all in you know so I thought that would be enough but it wasn't it's not enough the fucking the course didn't get me put as part of the fucking so I did three of them but to a high level it's to a high level so there's ten characters on this on this course ten different characters you could be a ninja you could be a secret agent you could be a football hooligan a viking a musketeer a pirate you know there's Greek the hopolite Greek with the spear so there's loads of it's a good course but I'm not going to say the name because I don't the guy who runs it is a pussy yeah I just we fell out he tried taking the piss and it's a good course though I would you know I wouldn't give him his cool he definitely is a good course but the guy is a bit of a dick so I'm not but I did these courses anyway and to a good level so you learn the basics of taking reactions and sword fighting and it has helped me it has helped me a lot because everyone who does the course everyone knows the same Is that your job today?

1:24:21A stuntman? That's what I do today yeah stunts I just finished on Witcher season 4 with Mark Shakeshiff and I did a bit of season 5 as well on uh much big battle scenes uh with march a ship and i've there's something coming out real soon called prisoner um should be coming out i think next month should be out next month on sky it's a good it's good little little bit actually it's a guy who did peaky blinders and he's i know he's featured me he's featured me quite well i'm not saying it's gonna it could lead to something hopefully it does because i i do enjoy it i love i love this i love the play fighting i fucking when i was in my boarding school dodge i was fucking nine years old i was being bodie and doyle mate oh man star skiing you know i was doing that in my school i was doing the assault i remember the first fucking first season of the professionals they come they come out and they did this assault course in the first season it was like that was the beginning of the of the show and me and my mate Richard Clay we built our own assault course we was diving over you know we'd either be the professionals or we'd be monkey magic monkey what was it what was it yeah mate I've got the box set I've got the box set quality I'm nervous for years we'd have the we'd have the like fuck it you know so that's what in my school it was like you're either professionals or star skin and arch or playing with your action man.

1:25:56I used to love my action man. What's it like now being 57 in the same area that you grew up? How's it changed? Oh, it's not great. It's just getting worse, really. There's more gangs and more drugs. you know it's like I said see people like kids like me that fall through the cracks that haven't got role models they're easy they're easily enticed into the gangs you know through with the the camaraderie the you know the friendship the brotherly kind of love that you get from you know it's easy especially if you're coming from the care system. I mean, I see it in prison a lot, that there was a lot of kids in the care system that ended up definitely in prison, ended up taking their life, you know, down to abuse or getting into drugs heavily because of the abuse.

1:27:03And I know some of that was definitely a reason why I gravitated towards certain drugs, because it was an escape. It's like the escape through drugs or they escaped through sex. You know, but it's not long-lasting. It's just, you know. Are you an addictive personality, would you say? I think I am, yeah. I think I am to a point. I mean, if I recognise it, it's like when I was smoking crack, I knew I had a problem and I tried to get help. I knew I had a problem, you know. I wanted help, you know, but there wasn't anywhere. Did you ever go AA, NA? Or was that not even known back then? No, not really.

1:27:42I mean, I didn't know where to even start. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, when you walk through now, being the age you're at, and you're walking through the estate, and his gang's there, they don't know who you are. Say if they don't know. I'm sure a lot of them do, but I'm saying like the younger lot, say they're 18 to 24, and they might see you as an older man, but they don't know your reputation. They don't know that you are dangerous, one of the most dangerous in the UK. How would you react around them if there was 12 of them? How would you be today? I would try to talk. I tried to talk, but I have calmed down, 100 % I've calmed down.

1:28:28I had a road rage incident. I ride a bike. I ride a bicycle. I mean, it's electric, but I do pedal. I don't throttle. I'm not one of them throttle fucking, I see them all the time. They're mover fuckers, mate. They're just throttling down the road. Fucking no helmet, no fucking lights. Like I took, you know, I pedal. I'm, I'm careful. Yeah. But I had a road rage a couple of years ago. Like maybe, yeah, it was a year, 18 months. And, um, this guy was just fucking speeding for no reason for Sunday morning. And I threw my arm up like that. He's screeched up, stopped, jumped out. What, you got a fucking problem?

1:29:12And I'm like, what the fuck? And he's just come up, banged me. I was like, you never, you never just, you just woke up the beast, you fool. I started kicking, I'm now starting to kick. What are you kicking me for? Like, because that's what I do, mate. I'm kicking him. He's backed into the car. I've grabbed hold of him, took him down to the ground. I've given him a few litre. I took him down to the ground and I would get his side control. Got man on him. I was, I was banging away. I banged him up, mate. I was just about to get side control and he squirmed out. I've got him in a guillotine, but if I would have got side control, I would have broke his arm.

1:29:50I would have snapped his fucking arm, mate. Like he took the piss, just banging me. What? You want some bubble? Like, no, I thought like, mate, you could, anyway, when I'm on top of him beating him, he's like, I'm only 25. You're going to kill me. I was banging he went I'm having a bad day I'm having a bad I went you're having a worse day oh fuck I'll give it to him mate and like I said I was just getting side control but the car he was like almost underneath this car and he's managed to fucking I got him in a guillotine I've had him in a guillotine I was holding him there and then I've let him you know I nearly choked him out I let him go and he is just straight to the car fucking he's gone I mean, there was a few neighbours out.

1:30:35There was a scream. But the way he was driving, you want to worry about your kids. Don't worry about me. Oh, the children, the children. Listen, is it me? Listen, I don't start shit. I'm really not one. I'm not that guy that really tries to start. Unless you give me a really good reason, I'm not. I don't start. I finish it. Is that the last tear up you've had? No, that wasn't. No, I had one more since then. That guy went to hospital. that guy he went to hospital mate I fucked him up but um what was that over no it was just that was just a misunderstanding that was someone up going just acting just over fucking they went over the top and they started pulling shit out and yeah just but they went to hospital that was the last one that was the last one I mean I've really tried not to can you can you can you flick the switch within half a second it you know what dodge it does depend yeah it does scare me because i know i've i have still got i can still you know when i don't i don't think sometimes it's it's scary i know it's just gonna take that it's gonna take me fucking 30 years ago bumping into me now and with there's gonna be you know the kid might do something he's gonna regret i might do something.

1:32:02I might be forced to do something that I'm going to regret. You know? It is a bit scary like that because I know he's still there. The fire is still there. The beast is still there, isn't he? He is definitely still there, mate. He ain't, you know. I'm not trying to, but I'm not trying to be that guy out there. You know, I love the stunt work that I do. I love being, not that, I don't want fame. None of this is, none of this is about fame. It's just telling my story. It's telling my story. I've got a book, two books, that are going to come out. When's the first book going to come out, roughly? The first book I will be releasing, I think, within the next month or two.

1:32:39Brilliant. Hopefully in the next couple of months, Cradle to the Cage. And then Cracked to the Cage is going to take a little bit longer. So the Cracked to the Cage is the part two of that. Yeah, Cracked to the Cage is... Why don't you amalgamate them all into one? I wish I could, but it's just too much, Dodge. It really is. How many pages in each one? Mate, so far, I've got something like 110 ,000 words. In book one? In the whole book. Yeah, in one and two. In one and two. Okay. Yeah. It's over 40 chapters. Yeah, okay. It's over 40. It's like, there is a lot going on. Is there anything you can't say in your book?

1:33:16Yeah, there is. How many things you reckon you can't say in your book? There's quite a few things that I'm not going to say in the book. I can't because it's going to implicate other people. It's going to make other people look bad. Then I'm not trying to make them look bad. you know I wish I could but I'm you know I am writing a script I'm writing a script to a film I've got a TV series panned out as well that I've already half scripted so some of my stuff is going to be will end up I think in film and it's going to be you know these events are based on but I'm not going to get they're not going to be I can't give anyone names too much detail yeah so you know when we started this episode they were talking about that you got like 99 % amazing feedback.

1:34:04What sort of good feedback were you getting after doing the podcast? I was getting great feedback. A lot of positive, you know, some really great feedback. It was all mainly a couple of comments that I did see that, you know, were nothing. There was a couple, really and truly. I didn't see, I see maybe one or two that were negative. and I know I've got haters out there. I know everybody's got haters, but if you haven't got haters, you're not doing something right, are you? That's what I believe. It's like if you're upsetting someone, I don't want to upset everyone because I haven't got a problem with anyone.

1:34:44I know I've got some enemies. I know I have. I know there's some people out there that hate me. I don't really hate them, but if you try and fuck with me, then we're going to have a problem. That is 100%. But I'm not trying to fucking, and, you know, assert these situations where I'm going to, you know, I want to find it because I know who you are. I know a few, I know who you are, you know. We've had disagreements in the past and you still ring my phone from time to time, want me to answer it and tell me, you're going to tell me a load of shit. But, you know, I've already banged you up. You know, it's like, it's pathetic.

1:35:24It's just childish shit. And I haven't got the headspace for that energy. So I just don't even, you know, I don't answer my phone unless your name is, I don't really answer my phone. Unless I've got your name. Because if I haven't got your name, you're not really worthy for me. Or, I mean, but if someone says to me, oh, can someone have your number? Or you can message me. You can message me, yeah. If you get my number and you can message me and say who you are. and then I will maybe talk to you. But I don't really answer the phone to unknown, and the private numbers. Do you ever have sleepless nights?

1:36:02No, never have sleepless nights. When I was working for Charlie, I had some sleepless nights. I had some nights where I fucking jumped out of bed with the dreams. Like, fucking, what? I've had them, yeah. When I was working for Charlie, yeah. But not, no, not. I've got nothing to worry about. I'm not doing anything. I'm not doing anything. I'm paying my taxes. I'm going to work. I love my work. I don't get enough of it. Yeah. You know, I've made mistakes on set that have cost me work, cost me loads of work. I'll give you one example. Have you ever had a tear up on set? No, never had a tear up.

1:36:42Have you ever had a tear up? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I've said to people, well, end of the night, stay behind. Or like certain stuntmen, I've said, bring the gloves. Bring the gloves tomorrow. we will have it why why because I don't know we got a problem there's a problem but I'll give you one example I'll give you one example I'll give you a couple example of films that I've been I've had fucking little little shit on and it's pathetic one of them was Dungeons and Dragons great film now the the coordinator of that film there was a couple of coordinators on it there was some Hungarian guys a great little team and then there were some British guys but anyway I know the British guys the coordinator's giving me a bit of work I'm not on the register so he's taking a bit of a risk but you know he's my pal type thing because I've done a few things for people I fucking had 11 hours in the cells down to this guy he had a debt someone didn't want to pay him the debt so I've gone all the way over to fuck it up the other side of the country to hop this guy up over a debt.

1:37:53It's only a fucking five grand debt. So I've gone over there and I was so close to slapping and giving this guy a backhander. I was so close to backhanding him like fucking you owe the money. But I didn't. Anyway, he didn't have the money. So we took his car. Took the car. Like my mate's driving. We took his car. Some BMW 4x4 or something. X5. Took the car. Parked it up down the road. gone back to my mate's ass to get our car. I mean, the guy ain't getting his car back until he pulls up the money. He said he's going to pull the money up that day. He said he's going to get it from his... But anyway, he fucking ended up telling his missus his missus is fucking...

1:38:36Made him call the police. The police have turned up at my pal's ass and he's had his ass raided. We've been nicked. So, 11 hours in the cells. Fucking, I'm going, man, I'm kicking it for him. going mad himself. Anyway, come out. But he's still, he's giving me a bit of work. He's got this film Dungeons and Dragons. So, he's giving me this bit of work and I'm doing this fit. Anyway, I bumped into, my mate has just got 24 years, right? So I thought, I'm going to try and cheer him up. There's Michelle Rodriguez. Let me get a, let me see if she assign a photo from my friend to my friend, because he's just got 24 years.

1:39:16What's for? For fucking the Encro. The Encro bullshit, Venetica, Operation Venetica, they did like 700 in a day. He didn't have a phone. He just threw association. He ended up getting 24 fucking years. What for the phones? For importation. Importation into, like, they said he was part of the fucking thing. Importation into Australia. 50 million pounds worth of MDMA. Half a ton. MDMA. It was in a fucking, in a JCB, in the arm of the JCB. they sent it over to Australia they fucking x-rayed it opened up 50 mils worth they valued it at and it was to Australia but he ended up getting 24 years on that case just got the bird I'm on this film and I'm thinking I want a signed photo for my mate cheer him up I've already said hello to Michelle I've already said hello to her how are you doing I'm a big fan nice with you and I thought I'm going to go back and ask her.

1:40:21I'm going to go back and ask her for the photo. So I've gone to go back over there to ask her. And she's got her fucking PA with her. Just as I'm walking over, she's called me out of the corner. She's going, will everyone just leave me alone? I was like, fucking hell. I've turned around and walked off. But my boss has seen it. My boss has seen me going over there and seen me like half. and it's a no-no when you it's a no-no you don't talk to don't talk to the the actors unless they speak to you you don't speak to me so he's seen it and he's that was three years ago I haven't I haven't fucking seen him since ain't spoke to no he's tell a lie you did wish me a Merry Christmas and that was it I haven't seen it three years you know if you're out there come on come on come on Pete come on mate fucking hell Mark mate we could speak for hours we could speak for hours about the films and the fights no I'm saying we could speak for hours on this we could the films that I've been kicked off of we could just mate again I'm going to I'm going to ask out there if they want a part three if you think it's a part three here I think we'll be up for a part three I'm doing I'm taking a leaf out of your book go on I'm doing I'm doing a podcast Oh, yeah.

1:41:46Beast Bites. Your own one? My own one. Go on. Beast Bites. Go on. I'm doing my first episode this week with Julius Francis. Good for you, mate. Yeah, I thought I'd give it a go. Good for you. Stick with it. Because you know what? I'm going to do one a month. See how it goes. So many people do it and they stop after episode 10. Because it's time consuming. It needs a lot of work. It needs the right people. One a month. One a month for now. One a month just to see how it goes. but my first one's with Julius Francis. I'm going to get Julius, because we're all, you know, grew up together. Julius, Julius has come on as well.

1:42:21Brilliant. What a lovely, what a lovely man. Yeah. Mate, definitely, definitely stick with it. If you need any advice, mate, you've got my mobile. Yeah. I'll help out. No problem at all. Of course I'm going to be asking. You're tapping me up, isn't it? Of course I will. You're the fucking, you're the king. You guys are the, you know, you're the top, you're the top boys. Obviously, if I, I want to, you know, I'm going to pick your brain. Yeah, mate. No problem at all. I'd appreciate it. No problem. Thank you. Epi, mate. I've really enjoyed this. A bit of verbal diarrhea. I did go off. Mate. I went off.

1:42:49Mate. Unleash him. Away he goes. Mate, a pleasure. Part two, mate. Fantastic. I really appreciate you making the effort. Some story you got. Some story you got. Look out for the book. Look out for the book. Anyone out of the book. Cradle to the cage. 100%. Cradle to the cage and then crack to the cage. Crack to the cage. Part two. That's a lot of words, by the way. A lot of pages. fair play it's hard work fair play let me look at that let me look at the ring there but it's got to be where's that where'd you get that beast oh someone made it up for me quality yeah someone made it I mean it's worked I used to have another one back in the day with the boys it's basically it's basically a legal duster yeah I have branded not really branded with this but with the other one I had the one called Bismarck yeah that was my nickname my street name was Bismarck and yeah there was quite a few people got branded with that yeah Epi probably enjoyed that mate wicked yeah good man nice one thank you thank you Dodge my pleasure my pleasure mine as well mate good man if you'd like to see someone on the show leave a comment below and if you haven't already do us a favour show us a bit of love press the subscribe button and that allows us to grow the show even bigger and bigger each week nice one