#346. The Owners Who Broke West Ham - Nick Hawkins & Dan Lawless (West Ham TV)

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0:57Dan Lawless: Amazing razz this season over it.

0:59Nicky Hawkins: To fall so hard, so quick. I thought it was coming, Dodge. I really did.

1:02Dan Lawless: There's no accountability. No, exactly. That's the thing. West Ham TV. Has anything boiled over where it's gone too far? It's got there. It has, has it? Yeah. We couldn't score against us to f***ing go-go!

1:14Nicky Hawkins: Millwall next season. Yeah. How is that going to be? Because I think that will be a bloodbath. This is where Sullivan falls down. His PR has been awful. He's losing fans left, right and centre. Instead of dealing with problems, they'd rather silence him. How did you feel, Dan, when that move was announced?

1:33Dan Lawless: I don't think we realised what we were losing.

1:35Nicky Hawkins: They were willing to sacrifice all of our experience for that and all of our memories. I'll never forgive him for that, mate. No, I won't forgive him for that either. I know this is going to sound crazy, but I was an advocate for us going down. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, f***, no, I'm not taking that.

1:55Dan Lawless: Gentlemen, welcome to the show. Hello, Dutch. Thanks for having us, mate. Thanks for having us, mate.

1:58Nicky Hawkins: Yeah, I'm looking forward to this one. We've been chatting for a while, haven't we?

2:01Dan Lawless: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

2:01Nicky Hawkins: It's been a long time coming, this one.

2:04Dan Lawless: It has. Yeah, yeah. It has. Let's roll all the way back. If you could wave a magic wand, Nick, what would you do if you were the owner of West Ham Football Club?

2:13Nicky Hawkins: I wouldn't leave Upton Park, that's for sure. I mean, you can go, I mean, how deep do you want to go, Dutch? I'd scout a little kid called Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo if I could, but I wouldn't have put us where we are. That's what I wouldn't have done.

2:32Dan Lawless: Do you know what the mad thing is, when you look back at it now and think, well, we're 2026, 10 years have gone like that.

2:37Nicky Hawkins: Yeah.

2:38Dan Lawless: And that was a big old move. Yeah. How did you feel, Dan, when that move was announced? Do you know what? At the time, it was sort of surreal. It was like a mixed feeling, to be honest with you. it was like a bit scared, a bit, you know, interested of what is this going to mean for West Ham? What could this new stadium be like? You know, what would leaving Upton Park mean for the club? You know, but, you know, with hindsight, I keep looking at that picture of you there at Upton Park. That was the last game of the season. Where the Man United game, me and Dad, an old man. It just, I don't know, I just get emotional looking at it.

3:15Dan Lawless: Do you know what I mean? And at the time, I don't think we realised what we was losing. Do you know what I mean? What they was taking away. And you see it now. It's like, mate. Do you know what annoyed me about it? The two Davies said there was a poll went out. And they said that the West Ham fans agreed that it was a good move to go to the London Stadium. I never saw a poll. I never heard of one. No, neither did I. No. And I think where we sit today, I kind of understand on the business side of things, why those two would go, right, we're going to London Stadium because we're getting it for peanuts.

3:49Dan Lawless: But there was no thought going into it. That was the upsetting thing.

3:53Nicky Hawkins: Do you want to know my honest opinion? I think it was just a self-service for themselves. Because if you remember at Upton Park, where you're standing right there in that photo, there's a car park just behind you there. And you would know it. It's where the stadium's going.

4:06Dan Lawless: All the players would come in.

4:06Nicky Hawkins: So they would pull up there, and the chairman, in their big brawlers, bright red, and they would have to walk through every single fan before they got into them doors which are just behind you there.

4:16Dan Lawless: Yeah.

4:18Nicky Hawkins: You don't see them now. No. You don't see them. Well, they've got the fear. They've got the fear. Yeah, exactly. So they go into an underground or a lower story car park, which is secluded. They walk into their own company. Yeah. They go and sit in their seats and then they leave and they never have to see a fan. And I honestly think the way that guy operates, I think that is one of the reasons why he wanted to leave there. I don't think he likes, he's not a people's person no he's not we know he's not a people's person and I think that was a big motivation they knew they was going to be comfortable there they knew they was going to be comfortable they was willing to sacrifice all of our experience for that and all of our memories and I'll never forgive him for that

4:59Dan Lawless: no I won't forgive him for that either I don't think anyone will forgive him for it do you know what I'll just say the Icelandics remember the Icelandics yeah Edgar Manson they were actually talking about this doing the move to London Stadium were they talking about it before were they yeah before i looked up i looked up recently and when i was going to do some reading yeah it came up and i completely forgot about that and i just wonder had we done it with them and everything that happened would it have been the same would they have done the same deal to you know where spurs wanted to knock it down would would the life's landings because i think they get a bit of a bad rap they went bankrupt didn't they which put us in a bad situation they spent a load of money but would they have said do you know what yeah we'll take it as it is we won't try and convert it to a football stadium we'll have it give us whatever you want like the Sullivan and Gold did that's the interesting question for me because that move was always on the cards going back then so it's interesting but if you're running a business right you've got to be speaking to your fans you've got to be speaking to people who are paying you to come in you want to have that communication what I see with Sullivan he doesn't want to speak to anyone

6:07Nicky Hawkins: but Dodge I think that's where But football is so different. You're a business owner. You know if you haven't got your customer base, then your business is dead. That's right. With football, you've got a ready-made customer base. It takes a lot. Listen, it's happening now, but it takes a lot to drive those core customers out. You'll always have them now. That's why I'm still go. I'm a mug. You know what I mean? So that's why football is so different. And I think that's why a lot of these owners, they don't get driven out of football quickly because they think, no matter what I do, I can treat these any way I want.

6:42Nicky Hawkins: They're not going to... If I was to go to McDonald's and I didn't like the burger, I'd go, I'm going to go to Burger King. If I go to West Ham and I don't like the football, I'm not going to go to Tottenham. That's why they stick around because they're like, I can do anything. There's nothing I can do to these people. It's going to take some extremeness to get these to not come anymore.

7:01Dan Lawless: There's no accountability.

7:02Nicky Hawkins: No, exactly.

7:03Dan Lawless: That's the thing.

7:03Nicky Hawkins: That's it.

7:04Dan Lawless: Do you know what I mean? There's no accountability going, do you know what? They're going to keep paying. They're going to keep paying. I'll keep hiding from them. I'll buy them some players that are half decent. Hopefully they'll be happy. But imagine if you're an owner of West Ham and you communicated with your community around you. Do you know what, guys? I actually lost 100 million quid this year. I lost 70 million quid this year. And you were honest with the fans. The fans were buying to you a bit more. I'm not saying they were buying to David Sullivan as much, but you would be a bit softer towards them and understanding that maybe your pockets aren't deep enough.

7:34Dan Lawless: Maybe we need someone with bigger pockets.

7:35Nicky Hawkins: but you know what you would do and you would know this if you went and done any sort of business and you lost 100 million quid you'd sit there and go why have I lost 100 million quid maybe I can make the experience better and they don't do that they don't do that there's no as you said there's no accountability they are not out to make it better they're just how can I plug the hole by not changing and that's what they want to do

8:00Dan Lawless: or paper up the cracks

8:00Nicky Hawkins: or paper up the cracks do you think

8:02Dan Lawless: what was their mindset leaving Upton Park when we've got history of our great-granddad, our granddad, our dad, going there as a boy at the North Bank at the age of five, six. So all the stuff and the memories and the smells when you walk by Ken's cabin overland and sea, and all just that beautifulness that we had. What made them so... So...

8:23Nicky Hawkins: Determined. Determined and so like, I don't care about the history,

8:26Dan Lawless: let's go to that one. Was it thinking, there's more of a pound note in that, was it thinking we need a bigger capacity? was it thinking that this is a better commercial deal? I really would love to get him on. I'd love to get him on and speak because I'd love to know what's going on in his mind because none of us know and that's the infuriating thing. I think it is money. It does come down to money.

8:49Nicky Hawkins: I don't agree with that. Sorry. But go on. No, go on.

8:52Dan Lawless: That's interesting. Why don't you agree with the money?

8:54Nicky Hawkins: Because I think it's aesthetics. I don't think we see them. It gave away a lot of money. Do you know what I mean? I think it's as fair we've got this this now everyone says about you've got this 65 ,000 seat stadium and you look like a big club but in the interior of it it's not formatted but Dan I'm sure he had a very interesting point I hear what you're

9:19Dan Lawless: saying yeah yeah no well you look at it I mean they rented the stadium now the story was that they wanted to buy it right and then Spurs and Leighton Orient come in and said no no no we can't have that and now we had to rent it first thing his first interview when he took over the club is actually we'd like to rent the stadium so rent you sell upton park right they've sold that and rented a stadium that's like really high value property i think it was sold and then sold again shortly after i want to find out about that as well that's that's i want to find out about that because that's been brushed under the car but it was sold and sold straight away yeah that's that's something again that's because i think it was about 40 million was the fee that was reported the initial sale of buying upton park yeah for what they sold it for um and then they've gone and rented the stadium now i'd simon jordan say who's owned for crystal palace any owner would have taken that deal well no because spurs their deal was to knock it down and rebuild the stadium you know who whatever you think about spurs they have serious businessmen in charge sullivan and gold were like and this is the cheap option no we can get this cheap rent we can sell that stadium make that profit there pocket that and minimum upkeep we don't have to worry about paying for stewardship police catering and that's why I think and look I think there's something in what Nicky said as well of course it's the look at us we've got the big stadium without the outlay without the outlay but with no infrastructure behind it yeah exactly there's no infrastructure going right this is a five year plan seven year plan it's like I'm always saying you can't just run a business on a one year plan

10:56Nicky Hawkins: but this is is the thing dodge so you can have a lamborghini yeah you got the engine you ain't got a lamborghini do you know what i mean so there's not there's nothing it looks like a lamborghini to the eye you know bloody hell he's got a lamborghini you open the bonnet you just got a shell shell of nothing you know you could put a full fiesta would be more handy to you because it could actually run you you know just because it looks fancy doesn't mean you know everything is in place i do you

11:23Dan Lawless: Do you think they thought, do you know what, on paper this is a great deal? Like financially, we're getting cheap rent, we're getting everything paid for, we've done a 99-year lease, on paper it looks like a good deal. As a business, you'd go, that looks like a good deal. But they've killed the soul, they've upset the fans by doing that.

11:41Nicky Hawkins: I think they badly miscalculated that about what they was leaving and what made West Ham West Ham.

11:47Dan Lawless: And give us basically 19 neutral league games because we don't have that home fortress feel. And I'm not saying people always say, we didn't win every week at Upton Park. It wasn't easy to come to Upton Park. People had the fear. Fans would have the fear. Players would have the fear. They come now. It's not only the day out. You can take five kids, you can have a bite to eat, which is lovely. Don't get me wrong in Westfield. And then when you're in the stadium, it feels like it's an FA Cup day for the away team. Yeah.

12:14Nicky Hawkins: I've never met a player, not one player, that turned around and went, I enjoyed playing at Upton Park. In terms of...

12:20Dan Lawless: Playing against us. playing against us

12:22Nicky Hawkins: I was with George Alicobi yesterday he played for Wolves and we was talking about it because I said I was a West Ham fan I was doing this Wolves thing and he was like oh I hated going down I hated going down I said you've been to Newham yeah it's lovely yeah and that's that's the problem that's the issue

12:38Dan Lawless: that's why I maintain because there was all this we had to leave Upton Park to be successful to compete to get the players to win we won the Conference League I think we would have won more if we stayed at Upton Park because of that home advantage But hindsight is a wonderful thing as well. If we're taking both sides, hindsight is a wonderful thing of we could have won or we could have had more. But surely a 36 ,000 cap, we could have done the chicken run and waxed another 15 ,000 and then all of a sudden we got a 45 ,000 or a 50 ,000 cap staying where we are. Could that not have been an easier option?

13:08Dan Lawless: That was the thing.

13:10Nicky Hawkins: They always presented it. Because I remember seeing plans for that back in the day doing the chicken run again and the redevelopment of West End. And the plan was to redevelop the West End, which we did, and then redevelop the chicken run. And apparently there was a problem with the bus garage there. And they turned around and said, no, there's no redevelopment going there. There's a bus garage there. And they always held on to that. And I think when David Sullivan and Gold come in and they said, well, we can't develop. You know we can't develop. But by that time, the bus garage had gone. So they could have reapplied for that.

13:40Nicky Hawkins: If they wanted to. If they wanted to. But I think when that opportunity came along and they knew what was coming to the city, I think it was their do I think they wanted to absolutely damage the club? No but I don't think they actually knew what they was doing and what they did is they saw this opportunity they've got this iconic stadium going up they know that that Olympics is going to be fantastic for the city they know it's going to you know it's going to go worldwide and that what they're thinking is right in 2016 we can develop that into our own everyone's going to see it and that's why you see behind you there there's a club a badge there with the word London on it because they were trying to coattail off the back of the Olympics and they thought every tourist that comes to this city is going to come to this.

14:26Nicky Hawkins: This is iconic and it's now ours and it's ours for nothing. And the likes of me and you that stood there, it doesn't matter anymore whether we come because they know that the people that are going to Westfield or the people that are going to watch ABBA are going to buy them tickets anyway. And that is what they've always relied on.

14:42Dan Lawless: But on the grand scheme of things, when you break out down the finances, say where stam turns over 230 mil match day tickets is two grand two mil a match day yeah times call it by 20 just for argument's sake it's a 40 mil business just on the on the tickets there yeah yeah on the grand scheme of things of 230 mil it's not massive no do you know what i mean you get 130 mil from tv you get 60 mil from merchandise and and sponsorship and probably 40 mil on the gate on the door yeah and how much was we if you you look at the extra tickets say we had 35 ,000 at Upton Park you've got 60 ,000 so 25 ,000 extra tickets so what it's an extra call it an extra 15-20 mil on top it's not majors on the grand scheme of what we could have done it's not yeah it doesn't then tell you okay we're going to go and spend to compete with Arsenal's and Liverpool's like we were told and the thing is you know Bournemouth it's all about Bournemouth 11 ,000 seater stadium so we had to move punch him way above their weight way above their weight why?

15:41Dan Lawless: because they've got a structure they're a well-run football club it's not the stadium it's also the recruitment of Bournemouth it's the infrastructure it's unreal one of the best recruitments I've seen

15:52Nicky Hawkins: I've been down here like 20 years now I was going out of a girl here in 2007 let's say and that was a fourth division club what was her name? I'm not going to say that I'm not going to say that maybe it was a bit later than that actually but I used to go down there and we used to live on the road I forget the roads now where they walk up and down. Is it the... No, I can't remember. Anyway, I used to see the fans walking past and into the ground. Yeah. I used to sit in the front room and I'd say, oh, there you can. Oh, Bournemouth's up the road. I was like, Bournemouth's a tiny, tiny club. Fourth division club at the time.

16:27Nicky Hawkins: Been three years, Premier League club. Yeah. And we're well split up by then. I think we split up that year. But Premier League club, all of a sudden, competing in the South. I think, wow. I know. I went to this ground and I thought, this was... I remember seeing the fans walking around when it's fourth. Now a mainstay. An absolute mainstay. And now in Europe. And now in Europe.

16:47Dan Lawless: And now we're the lower league club. And they're the Premier League club. And in Europe. Because the club is run unbelievably well. And it's run from the heart. Yeah. And I've seen it first hand. Because I'm friends with the commercial directors and the ex-chairman. I've seen it first hand. Fabulous club. A fabulous club. Well run. And their recruitment is off the charts. The players they're bringing in. You've never heard their names. but I know they'll be like he's going to be banging he's super quick he's got skill and every player they bring in you know he's going to be quality even if you've never heard of him before you know what the main

17:17Nicky Hawkins: heart of it is the community yeah I agree and that is what we've lost listen yeah you know and that is and as you see you know when you look at we've had a successful year or two playing in Europe year or two in this news day just hold on to that by the way yeah please

17:35Dan Lawless: huge huge positive that 23 was an unbelievable unbelievable and even under Moyes under the years under Moyes I know people wanting his head I was thinking don't the best bet the devil you know like I don't know if were you slagging off I was

17:49Nicky Hawkins: you were were you yeah I was a Moyes out I was Moyes out why because I don't I think we had a chance there and one opportunity to move on and in hindsight dodging the hindsight is a wonderful thing we shouldn't have trusted the man to to be able to and I'm not talking about Moyes I'm talking about Sullivan to choose the successor yeah because that's what we needed there was a point where the last season of Moyes we was getting beat badly and he's a defensive manager we'd lost everything about us I think he'd peaked I think he'd peaked and we'd lost Ricey and I think that was a massive you know that was a massive part of Moyes's reign and he was struggling a little bit to play the way we were and I was thinking I think he's going to ruin his legacy if he carries on because I can see the way this club is going and it's not up anymore and we need to move on to a different style of play, someone to come in and restructure and go forward that way from that high platform that he left us.

18:48Nicky Hawkins: I think he would have my utmost respect forever and ever and ever because he gave me the best night I've ever had as a West Ham fan but in terms of moving on you need to move on you know Everton fans already are starting to see the same and it's easy to look at and I know Dodge you're a West Ham fan so you know I respect everyone's opinion but that's just what I thought at the time we could move on but in hindsight no of course not because the man that followed him and the man that followed him are why we are where we are today

19:19Dan Lawless: yeah we weren't the right choice yeah yeah but do you know what David Moyes what I saw with the club before David Moyes came the club was disjointed and it's been disjointed for a long time. Yes. The Flans have been disjointed. He brought the culture of bringing the fans back to the club. He was the connection. Yeah. I really felt that. I really felt he'd done a proper good job with that. Yeah, he did. And at the time, he was, because he was the manager, right? He was a de facto manager. He had a lot of power in the club, which is hard under Sullivan because Sullivan is a control freak. So him and Sullivan sort of worked hand in hand.

19:48Dan Lawless: Towards the end of that time, Sullivan wanted to go a different way. We bring in Stuyton. Stuyton comes in now and it's three people with their hand in the pot right Moyes Sullivan and Stuyton and that is where it all went wrong because Moyes is an old school manager you don't want to report to no director of football they fell out and you've got well he's a Moyes player he's a Stuyton player he's a Sullivan player and all of a sudden our recruitment post Rice goes to shambles because too many people got their hands in the game. Do you know we had an opportunity for a good mate of mine who knows him well.

20:24Dan Lawless: We had an opportunity of Jose Mourinho being able to come to West Ham at one point.

20:28Nicky Hawkins: Yeah, yeah.

20:29Dan Lawless: Literally. Like, he's even said, like, I'm interested in London club when he was... I was thinking... He knew full well. He knew full well. All he needed was our owner to go, just go and get him. If he's on 200 grander, just go and get him. Like, I think that would have been a good move for us. I said at the start of the season, bring Mourinho... Mourinho and Sullivan would be absolutely box office. Can you imagine Mourinho working with Sullivan? This is the thing

20:55Nicky Hawkins: and this is where Sullivan falls down. It's a PR. I mean, his PR has been awful. Yeah. He's losing fans left, right and centre. How better to go and get someone that exciting to go and bring the fans back? And even if you wanted to attract new ones, which seems to be his remit,

21:14Dan Lawless: how better?

21:15Nicky Hawkins: Yeah.

21:15Dan Lawless: But no, no.

21:17Nicky Hawkins: But when you look back

21:18Dan Lawless: at the finances, as a businessman looking in, if he's losing under a million I'm just talking round figures here just to keep it simple he's losing he's just lost under a million this year just gone even when we sold Dec when he went to Arsenal we got 9500 million for him we only made 50 million pound profit that year so there's no money in it like you need someone this is a this is a this is a toy you're playing with but you need someone with proper deep pockets who's going to have some fun with the toy and I think we're all crying out I don't care where you're from I think having someone with a lot of cash to get us back up and have some fun in the Premier League will be a delight for us fans.

21:57Dan Lawless: Ambition. Ambition. I agree. I look at Maranakis at Forest, right? And whatever you think about him, he's a bit of a basket case, right? Yeah. But he loves that club and he will do anything for that club. The Morgan Gibbs-White, the shady stuff around keeping him or whatever. The sacking of the manager. The excitement. They went through four managers and what happened? They stayed. We thought, bloody hell, this is mad. But they sacked four managers and stayed up. Whereas Sullivan, he'll go, no, I don't want to have to pay compensation. Let's just ride it out a little bit more.

22:29Nicky Hawkins: You know, he said to players, right, and this is true. So he went to see me. There was a lot of this, you know, what's the word? Unhappiness around the changing room, right? So there was a lot of that, right? He walked into the changing room. He went, do you think he's going to leave? he went I am rich enough to keep every single one of you at this club if you think you're going to go Maranakis Maranakis okay yeah I'm rich enough to keep every single one of you at this club so if you think you're going to walk out this club when we go down to the championship I'm rich enough to keep you here so if you want to play in the Premier League you'll be playing in the Premier League for Nottingham Forest or nothing yeah and then look look at the upturn

23:12Dan Lawless: look they're not winning leagues and winning trials but give me that over what we've got and what we've got is supposedly a lifelong West Ham fan? That's what you'd be supposed to have, a lifelong West Ham fan. Do you believe he's a lifelong West Ham fan? No, of course he ain't. I believe David Gold was. I met David Gold and I liked him a lot. I liked David Gold and I think he was I think he was had more I think because they had a bigger stake Sullivan had a bigger stake so he had more to say in it but I did respect to David Gold. Yeah, listen I think he's the I know he's an old I know there's a lot of things said about him but actually individually I thought he was a really nice human being.

23:48Dan Lawless: a good man

23:48Nicky Hawkins: I bet it and Karen Brady's lovely I've met Karen Brady a couple of times but in business yeah no what Karen Brady what's your

23:56Dan Lawless: what's your gut feeling on Karen Brady

23:58Nicky Hawkins: I think she's bolted before the what's the word

24:02Dan Lawless: just bolted early before it all kicks off yeah yeah I think

24:06Nicky Hawkins: she knows what's coming yeah there's big stuff coming at West Ham you know regardless of you know whether it be business or personal whatever yeah

24:15Dan Lawless: but she's culpable as well she is culpable yeah she is culpable because she's getting involved in things that shouldn't be getting, like picking managers. There was a report like Graham Potter, one of our worst ever managers, in my opinion. She was mates with his wife. So we'll get him in. She's getting involved in negotiating players and stuff. And you want to leave before we get relegated and wash your hands so none of it's on you. We're in a massive mess financially. You're part of that. Graham Potter, his earnings the other day when Chelsea got rid of him, he got full whack. for five years or something like that, and he's got a full whack at West Ham, he's earned more money than anyone I've ever met in my life for not doing much.

24:55Nicky Hawkins: How many industries do you know where you can get fired from your job and still earn the wages you earn? Unreal. It's crazy. For being a failure. For failing.

25:06Dan Lawless: Absolutely. How long have you two been running West Ham TV for?

25:10Nicky Hawkins: Well, Dan come after, just slightly, just a couple of, probably maybe months or, but I started it in 2015 I want to say 16 early 16 no 15 yeah sorry early 15 yeah 2015 so I've been doing it probably about 11 years now

25:28Dan Lawless: that's some commitment

25:29Nicky Hawkins: yeah yeah trust me it takes some commitment to follow them yeah yeah I don't want to swear would you

25:35Dan Lawless: would you what you've learnt from it have you had anyone go against you have you had like slagging matches online and all that

25:42Nicky Hawkins: many have you many many many I'm still getting to them now but you know you get to a point i mean at fur i'm i'm i'm an east londoner yeah so confrontations in my blood yeah of course you know so soon as so you know and that's that's the thing about when it started in the early days we could have 100 lovely comments and the one person who wants to make make sense of it come on in you know i mean but that's that's the way i was brought up you know and i but over the years i've mellowed i'm an old man now i wasn't an old man when i started you know what I mean I was you know in my 30s but so yeah yeah it was many many many many still getting on today

26:19Dan Lawless: has anything boiled over where it's gone too far it's got there it has has it yeah it's got there

26:26Nicky Hawkins: a couple of times give him an example there was a there was a guy one guy and he you know what I'm going to say right so Dan's got the smile yeah yeah but there was a guy who came after a game Chelsea game I want to say it was when we won and we're standing outside and it was when we first moved to the stadium and it was very very negative very negative you know everything that we said we was you know basically telling the truth why everyone else was trying to cover it up and he come over and he sort of started getting confrontational anyway I was very calm and a partner of ours he wasn't so calm and it nearly got you know into fisticuffs anyway it all went down it went away for a long time and then there was one where we got beat badly by Arsenal and the same guy comes over with a bunch of his mates he's like we did say this and you're an embarrassment screaming in my face you know I'm not just somebody's rocked up and coming this is my club you know I'm hurt I'm hurt it's him and he's telling me that's it I'm having we're fighting and I'm like okay no problem i went i'll tell you what i've got a queue of people here doing fan cams you wait for me and i said i'm not doing it here because i've obviously i want to come back here i said after this queue of people have gone me and you're going to walk over there and we'll have it and he's behind the camera and he's jumping up and down yeah i'm ready i'm ready and it and he was with a bunch of his mates right and i'm okay i'm getting through this queue as soon as as soon as we're done we're going over there and one by one his mates started getting bored and they started wandering off from behind him right so he's jumping up and down so I get to the last person and it's just him and I don't think he's realised he's so pent up and angry and he's ready to fight me I went last one and then we're going and he turned around to say something to his mates and they'd all gone and then all of a sudden I thought shit he bottled it it's just me and him he's got a 10 minute of pieces and we found out But, funny enough, because the first time it happened, the stewards came over before a punch was thrown and started accusing us of fighting and dragged us off the island.

28:43Nicky Hawkins: And we found out that that geezer worked for the club.

28:46Dan Lawless: Oh, he was trying to...

28:47Nicky Hawkins: And he was a plant.

28:48Dan Lawless: We could see him. We was at a game, right? So if you had a tear up and then you're banned. Yeah. You've heard about agitators. When you have protest groups and you have the agitators and they're there to stir it up, right? he's an agitator so he's there to try and get us banned because we we was at a game like a few weeks after that second incident and you know they have the the screen didn't they and they show all these fans they interview now he was on the screen there as part of the car and we're like hang on and we're like i said we're joining all the dots and we're like nah that's something's not right you've come back twice this isn't a normal occurrence for us you have people that have a pop us online some people maybe have a little pop as they walk off but what he was doing that comes across like an agitator he was getting as close as you can as you know provoking you

29:36Nicky Hawkins: without actually throwing a punch now he is I am angry by the time he comes in and I was close but as soon as I throw a punch that's it I'm out and that's when you connect the dots from the first incident when the stewards came over we've seen you on the CCTV fighting that's them waiting they see a scuffle that's because they're instigating they want that to happen and as soon as they see that little scuff scuff that's it get in there get them out that's our chance we've got them but we didn't actually throw a punch there was no aggression have you seen him since yes yeah yeah I've seen him since gives me a quick glance yeah

30:13Dan Lawless: put in the time frame this is towards the end of the billich era right yeah so we're laying it on heavy on the other so what we're talking 2016 17 that was really toxic in the club in the stadium yeah I would I would get there with my old man and there'd be tear-ups with fans potted all over the game and the stewards I remember seeing a steward with a Liverpool shirt underneath his finger and winding the face I was like what? Mate where I was my ticket was right because I give it up last season because I just hate that Well you're giving your season ticket up? I'm just giving it up What for the season just gone?

30:48Dan Lawless: Yeah so last the season before last was my last season Why? I hate the stadium I just it drained the life out of me the past two seasons I was like and every time the amount of times I missed kick-offs because I was like I could drag myself there and then I'll get there and then everything going up to it the cues the feel I just didn't enjoy it there was aspects I enjoyed when I was in my seat and I was with Scott who's on our channel and you're talking about the football but I hated it I'm like I'm putting money into Sullivan's pockets and I'm not enjoying myself but you're the only one who's losing out here right the thing is

31:24Nicky Hawkins: it's just lazy

31:25Dan Lawless: yeah I'm lazy Or tight. Yeah. Both. I don't feel like I'm losing out. The thing is, I'm comfortable with that decision, right? Because I know so many that have walked away. And that is the thing. When we moved to that stadium from Upton Park, there were 20 of us, right? All got the tickets together. We was in there, watched the Ray Winston BS PR video. And we moved there. Season after season, they slowly started dropping off to where there was like five of us left from my family. and more and more old school fans moving away new faces and he's just like but when you moved to the new stadium why did they not pick up the North Bank South Bank where you're all going to sit together that was the problem why would they not have why would they not have like the south part of the stadium now going if you want to sing and you want to be part of all of you are going to be there that's another thing they didn't think of it why did they not think about this running track of bringing it in closer it wasn't thought properly I think they've jumped in and gone shiny new object brand new stadium Olympics is the buzzword in 2016 let's grab it let's move it and the finance will be a lot a lot better

32:27Nicky Hawkins: it's because it was just too tempting it was just too tempting and they had this bright idea that yeah we can get all these old fans over and they'll buy it no matter what and then we've got this opportunity to give all I nearly got banned from the club for passing a ticket and I won't for passing a ticket on passing a ticket on yeah

32:47Dan Lawless: as a freebie to someone he shouldn't have

32:49Nicky Hawkins: and probably I shouldn't have but at the time it was going on left right center so obviously i'm in the content creation world i've got content creative friends yeah sport different clubs one of them says to me one day can you um can you get me a ticket and i was like yeah it's a liverpool fan yeah yeah all right no worries no worries at all so i guess a couple of tickets it just doesn't work there anyway so i can say it now and this was that i was really really bang to rights right they've started filming in the ground my brother's wife, now wife, worked in the shop. And when we first moved, all the staff got an opportunity to buy staff season tickets, which were the cheapest ones.

33:34Nicky Hawkins: You can get them for 200 quid. They'd gone away for the weekend. And I picked them up and gave them to my two mates. They started filming in the ground. Someone made a complaint to the club. They're Liverpool fans. They've tracked it down to my sister-in-law through the seats. and then they saw that on the camera I'm passing them over to so they got me dear oh dear Nicky this guy I won't mention his name because he's still there you're in big trouble we've got you now that's it you're finished and I'm like well done well done he's like touting tickets anyway he had me banged to rights yeah and he's like you've passed you've put these people in danger by giving them in their own mind eye offence now I know that those two tickets do not belong to you they belong to I won't say our name and your brother they don't they got no connection to me they don't know that's my brother's wife so we've traced them to you so we've got you on and I said I didn't do it I'm trying to blag it now you've got two choices you either admit it or you don't admit it and we sack Lisa so she's gone because if you didn't give them to her then she's given to her so she must have passed them to you anyway I'm sitting there and I'm sweating and I got out of it and I'm like I didn't know they were Liverpool fans how can you not know they're Liverpool fans how can you not know and I'm like well I don't we've seen you do videos of them in a Liverpool studio that I mean they told me they were Stan fans but you know them they can't prove it the only thing they've got is a video saying they're Liverpool fans that could be dodgy you know what I mean anyway it doesn't matter Lisa sold you them tickets I went no I stole them they went what do you mean I went I stole them they didn't know I took them so now they couldn't get hurt it doesn't matter you still have given tickets without checking I went do you know yesterday I was sat next to a Man United fan in my seat I said and he's got a season ticket did you check because what's the difference I didn't know they was Liverpool fans just like you didn't know that and they they were yeah

35:43Dan Lawless: because so many when we moved there they did this whole thing it does annoy me seeing other fans I haven't been fans in the state. I can't. It winds me up, man. Because you could bring, if you had the season ticket up to buy, and you was buying a season ticket, you could bring in 10 of your mates, right? Who could all be Arsenal fans. I see people in the office, you know, let's bring the office, get the whole office season tickets. Arsenal fans were telling me, I've got a season ticket at your game. Because they were just letting anyone bring people on and get a season ticket rather than, like, well, listen, we're going to give it to the season ticket holders, then the members, right?

36:14Nicky Hawkins: Then anyone with history.

36:15Dan Lawless: Yeah. But you could, if you're a season ticket holder, you can bring in anyone you want and go he'll have a season ticket he's never been to a game in his life don't support the club he can have a season ticket because I'm a season ticket how naughty has it been at the new London Stadium compared to Upton Park what you've seen over the last 10 years you mean in terms of between the most naughty stuff between the station and the stadium or when away fans leave I haven't seen it I haven't seen it either no I haven't seen it at all I said the most naughty stuff like you said was between our own fans yeah that's what I was going to say I said, everybody used to kick off.

36:49Dan Lawless: People sit down, sit down. No, I'm not sitting down. This is West Ham. And every week it'd kick off between or between fans and stewards. Hardly ever between there was that Chelsea game first ground where the geezer come on the across the seats and was jumping. Or the fans when our own stewards gave them a bloody water cooler bottle to use as a drum and they threw it at our fans. So there's been little stuff like that. but it's never like they said oh it's going to be on top if we're walking out and that's what I wonder Millwall next season how is that going to be? That's going to be like a 9am kick off innit?

37:25Dan Lawless: Yeah

37:26Nicky Hawkins: I've got a feeling they might talk about no away fans do you reckon? I have a game I reckon that would be a shame It would be a shame It would be A huge shame

37:34Dan Lawless: They can't do that right They can No but I get it the last time they did it West Ham fans want Millwall fans there Millwall fans when they're playing at home want West Ham fans coming out Of course It's rivalries. Look at the atmosphere.

37:46Nicky Hawkins: But the last time we played, Was that 2011? 11. There was a Nyon riot up there. And that was at Upton Park. Yeah. They cannot police that whole area. It's too vast. It's too vast.

38:00Dan Lawless: The thing is, last time when we played a game behind closed doors, it was off of the back of trouble before, right? So when there hasn't been anything for 15 years, it's hard to say, right, no fans can go to that game when there hasn't been any trouble 15. You ain't played each other. You've kind of got to give fans the chance. And if it goes wrong, then you punish. But it's up to them to get the police ready. You can't say to fans, well, there's one game. You buy a season ticket, you can't go to that game. You buy an away season ticket, there's a game you can't go to. Are you going to refund all the people that...

38:34Dan Lawless: They will, though. ...and say that?

38:35Nicky Hawkins: But I hope and pray, just for the stewards' sake, really, that the first game is at Millwall and if they have to make a decision, if it gets really bad, that they make the decision and it ain't that one first because I think that will be a bloodbath in that park. I really do. And there's going to be people caught up in it that should and don't need to be caught up in it. So, yeah.

39:02Dan Lawless: My theory is they've always, this is allegedly or whatever, but they've always tried to make sure we avoid each other in cups. There's always been cup draws where our name will come out and then we'll draw someone else and then Millwall will be the next ball after. I've seen that so many times. I'm like, well, we got him 2011. That was a cup. Yeah, but that's 15 years though. Since, that's what I'm saying. Since then. That was really naughty. Yeah, but since then, we've never met each other in a cup game. Yeah. Like, I don't know. I was with Junior Stanislas the other day in the gym down here.

39:34Dan Lawless: Yeah, Junior. And we were chatting about that game and he scored a brace. Yeah, he did. He got two that game. Because I went, I remember, I seen you the other day, he scored one he went no I've got two it's the best night of my life Zavon Zavon got the other one yeah so tell me tell me your thoughts on this season West Ham have had Nick all four

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41:07Nicky Hawkins: Really, I don't know. It's disappointing. Disappointing to fall so hard so quick. And it was, I thought it was coming, Dodge. I really did. And I think we've always relied on three clubs being worse if we have seasons like this. And unfortunately, Leeds and Sunderland, nowhere near as bad as us. Missed opportunities. Too many missed opportunities. is too much faffing around, too much... No leadership. No leadership, got rid of all the leadership. Two different, very different directions in management and it all ended up coming to a halt. I had a hope. You know,

41:51Dan Lawless: a bit of period, because we played well. I think we played well in the second half of the season. Yeah, we did. When you look at the table, you think, we'd have ended up seventh or whatever it was, whatever number it was. We were playing really good football And I was thinking, imagine if we stayed up and we kept that whole team. I'll go into next season confident with the squad, with that first team we were putting out, with Juve on the left and Mavropanos going from that to there over a certain period. And then the sassy coming in, Fernandes. And I'm thinking, my God, this is proper tatty up front.

42:19Dan Lawless: I was feeling something if we could hold on to it, you know. But we didn't manage to do it. It's a real shame. But on that, sorry to interrupt there, Dan. But on that point, it's a shake-up that we need.

42:32Nicky Hawkins: I think so.

42:33Dan Lawless: Because if we'd have stayed up, we might have just gone, oh, we've surfaced the cracks again. Let's go for another season and buy a few more players and hopefully we stay up again. But this might be the shake-up that West Ham Football Club need. I would have liked to have built on, like what you said, the uniformer. If I had the choice, look, none of us would want to go down. But like you said, we can see the positives out of it and hopefully it is a shake-up. But I thought our recruitment was actually decent. Yes, it was. The players signed in the summer was good. but again the problem like you said we got rid of a load of leaders under potter potter's man management was shocking his tactics were shocking and by that time then you get in nuno who like i said we had that good run i like nuno i like him but we've had blazing rows this season over it right what you like him or don't like him listen i was on the fence with him but i was i was i was a harsh critic for certain games right and he was a big defender i was a defender yeah my problem was the games where he's experimented.

43:27Dan Lawless: Them two games baffled me. The Brentford at home and the Leeds away. He played a mad line-up in the Brentford game. And we're like, what is he doing there? We won't do that again.

43:39Nicky Hawkins: Yeah, that's when he had Andy Irving in there.

43:41Dan Lawless: He had Irving and Rodriguez. Then he played Oli Skull's right wing-back. It was odd, wasn't it? He was switching them. And he was like, yeah, he won't do that again. And he did it against Leeds. And I was like, whoa, I'm worried here. And then you go away to Bournemouth, right? No, Leeds. No, no, I'm saying he'd done it again in the Leeds game. I'm saying the next game, the Bournemouth game, right? I'm away, Cyprus, watching the game, and we're on cloud, 2-0 up. Oh, my God, we're playing brilliant. We're smashing it. All of a sudden, Wilson off. I think it was Kilman on or someone, defender on.

44:11Dan Lawless: Kilman. And the game gets thrown away, and I'm livid. And there's so many games like that. But the final straw for me was Newcastle. I just, the amount of time. We didn't show up. But what he did in that game, what he did, that was the first time I said, I want him sacked, right? Because you go into a must-win game and you play a formation at five at the back in a game we have to win in a formation we've never won. Every time we play that game, we have not won. And Newcastle, most games they've played a team who play that formation have won. So you've not done your research and you've not gone for it in a game we have to win.

44:48Dan Lawless: So at that point, I want him gone. However I will say Is With the options That are out there I'm sort of glad He is staying Because we haven't Got to waste time Looking for a new manager We don't need to go And get another new manager He's done it He's done it with Wolves Got him up I think the players Respect him From what I'm seeing The work rate has gone up And I think By him staying there We'll cement a few more players Going Do you know what I'm in for one more season

45:14Nicky Hawkins: And the ones that don't Needed to go anyway In my opinion Who do you think

45:19Dan Lawless: Will leave starting from the back. I'll tell you what, let's go the other way. Who do you think we'll keep? We'll keep. I think we keep Bowen.

45:28Nicky Hawkins: I really think we keep Bowen.

45:30Dan Lawless: If Bowen stays at West Ham for one more season, that is what you call respect. And I tell you... Isn't it?

45:34Nicky Hawkins: For the fans. Legend. For his wife,

45:36Dan Lawless: for his father-in-law.

45:37Nicky Hawkins: And I think he needs to as well because he didn't have a great season and he's the captain. Yeah. He's the captain in this side and we've had blazing arguments over this as well about is he captain material. I don't think he is. I think he's a wonderful player but I don't get that aura of a captain off of him but he leads by example but you need someone who's going to be talking more I think it burdened him there were certain things that going on on a pitch where a captain should be stepping in and he wasn't doing them things which I think is leadership which I think makes other people start to slack because they know they're not going to get that you know that cult they're going to be held accountable I think Bowen stays

46:19Dan Lawless: that would be let's just hold that for him and I think imagine what sorry if Bowen stays he's going to guarantee us 2025 he's got to smash that and Tattie if Tattie stays he gets 2025

46:33Nicky Hawkins: and I think

46:33Dan Lawless: Tattie is

46:34Nicky Hawkins: he's built for the championship and I think he stays yeah

46:36Dan Lawless: what a great compliment yeah

46:39Nicky Hawkins: no but I mean I think he was great he'll be chuffed with that no I think he was great in the Premier League but I think he'd absolutely destroy the championship but there's two more that I think we have to if we can keep hold of these two we are and that's Suchek yes 100 % because of the leadership and Mavropanos if we keep hold of them four players I think we'll be fine yeah

47:02Dan Lawless: Mavropanos would be lovely but I think he'll move on probably he probably will he's he's got that grand jury I think yeah I think he'll move on if he stayed would be phenomenal but I'd really like Juve left back I'm not a fan are you not a fan no I'm not a fan oh I like him no the thing is there's things I like his pace that's what I mean what do you like about him I don't like his attitude don't like his attitude what do you he gives everything I don't think he's lazy I think the thing is he's got pace right and when he whips in a good ball he's got a wicked whipping with his left pick he does but the problem is I've seen it so many times you see the highlights when he does it it's amazing the amount of times he puts them out for goal kicks especially recently and he's defending his suspect that's listen when he brought an energy down that side that I like but he was just especially in the last few days off it to the point where if he leaves I'm happy with Skulls if we keep Skulls in that left back in the championship Callum Wilson apparently might stay there's a talk he might stay and I think he would if you've got imagine him up front as well but why have we not given him a proper go I'm just like mate there's something around like ah he's getting older I saw him the other day one on one with a defender and the defender's quick and he was like boom he's still got gas

48:19Nicky Hawkins: his profession his professionism because it's obvious that him and Nuno don't get on I think there was an interview that we you know against who did he score the winner against Everton so he scores the winner against Everton and somebody says to him the manager was very stone-faced when you scored the winner he went it's probably because it was me he said it as a joke but you can say because he's not getting picked probably he's thinking oh don't you I think it was one of them jokes where he made a joke but you can see there's a truth in it

48:49Dan Lawless: he's done really well I see him down there in Bournemouth you see him down the park just training by himself sprints sprints I hated him

48:56Nicky Hawkins: I couldn't stand him before he came to this club touch of magic because he always scored

49:00Dan Lawless: against us touch of magic yeah handball remember he scored the handball a goal against us and he's like oh it's a touch of magic

49:05Nicky Hawkins: and he said that in the last statement at the end of the season he's had history but he's felt at home here and he's just a model professional

49:12Dan Lawless: so let's go let's go this is good so we're saying an ideal world would be Medra Panos I'm not too sure but I would love that Tati Jared who was the other one Suchek Suchek I think if we keep two of those four I'd be happy I think if we can keep that call Karl Walker Peters Karl Walker Peters I think will stay yeah he'll stay and I think he'll do really well I think he'd done well for us and he'd done a good job there and I think Wan-Bissaka did not cover himself with glory when he came in I like Wan-Bissaka but do you know what a lot of people will he stay no no no

49:45Nicky Hawkins: He's off skis. He's going. But you know what I do look forward to? And a lot of people, you know, I've been saying this, and I was, I know this is going to sound crazy, but I was an advocate for us going down. Yeah. Because we had these... What for? Because I think we need a refresh. Refresh, yeah. I think we need a good clear out of the deadwood. I think there's too many different ideologies mixed into the squad. You know, you've got the Steident project, you've got the Potter project, you've got the Nuno project, you've got the... Who's the other manager? I'm missing. Lopategui. Lopategui, yeah.

50:14Nicky Hawkins: You've got all of them and it doesn't work. So we need to get rid of that by having a good reset. I think there's a core there we can keep. But I'm really looking forward to seeing people like Kante come into the midfield. Oh, I like him. Someone needs to give him a season, doesn't he? Yeah. So you can afford, and I said this, because of our financial trouble, because of the, you know, it was well documented that no matter what happened this year, we needed to find 120 million quid. Yeah. Now we need to find 150 million quid, but we need to find it. Yeah. More.

50:44Dan Lawless: because on the parachute we get 55 % of what we're currently getting now and then the following year we get 45 % and if we don't go out following you get 20 % and you're in proper trouble this is why I disagreed with him about wanting to go down right because I get it the reset if we bounce straight back up we could come back up in a stronger position than we left however it's a massive gamble because if we don't we are in banging trouble it's a tough league we have to get that recruitment spot on look if we can we're all talking about what players would keep look we'd love to if Bo kept Bowie if we kept Tain and I do but we might not because we might not get enough for the players that we have to sell so I'll just say this we have to make sure whoever we bring in is quality that can get us up because that's a competitive league that's a tough league it's a gamble so if we don't go straight back up we are in big big trouble and we could be a Leicester but I think fucking no I'm not taking that I'm definitely not fucking

51:40Nicky Hawkins: we're not going down

51:41Dan Lawless: I think it's going to be easier. We need more optimism, mate.

51:46Nicky Hawkins: Come on. I think it's going to be easier to rebuild from a championship point because you are a big boy in the championship. No matter what anybody's club say and how small, we are the big boys now. We are a more attractive proposition to come to a championship club. And I think it's easier to build for us to get out of the championship than having to release the likes of or sell the likes of Diouf and Fernandes and people like that and Mavropanoff and try and keep in the league. And then stay in the league. Yeah, I hear you. The thing is,

52:16Dan Lawless: we've been attractive and we've attracted Haller, Skamaka, Zaza. We've attracted names but they've been the wrong names. So that's the problem. But that comes back to recruitment. Yeah. What does Mark Noble do at the club? Plays golf, I've heard. What does he do at the club? Because he's West Ham through and through. I'd love to get him on but does he sit there going the recruitment here is not good enough what am I doing has he got a say yeah but has he got a proper say well I don't so his role was supposed I remember when Steinsen came in he was technical director noble sporting director it's all just titles lovely title sporting director but what he seemed to do from my understanding is work more with the academy he seemed to be heavily involved in the academy now it was players he scouted but he don't seem to be hands on and look we haven't heard anything from him I've heard he's been a bit off the radar lately um which makes because where is he in all this he is mr west down yeah all this is happening how come he's not coming down maybe he's not happy what's going on he don't want to put his face to it but it is it is strange but i think his role was doing that stuff with the academy and the academy did well you know i was at the uh fa youth cup final at arsenal and we smashed them so we've got a good academy there do you know the difficult thing is there like if someone's paying you.

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54:12Dan Lawless: A good whack to stay on to do something. You can't upset the apple cart because he's paying you. And I wonder if that's the case. Possibly. Maybe. I don't know. Because I've got huge respect for him and I think everyone at the club is. But I'd like to see him at the more forefront of the club. Because when he retired, he was the forefront yeah of course this is like the glue that's pulling the fans into the

54:35Nicky Hawkins: I think he's got to that whole point where he's like my old mother used to say if you can't say nothing nice don't say nothing at all

54:42Dan Lawless: there was one time he broke ranks and I remember it and when we sold Dian Garner I think it was and he come out and he slated them he slated them he criticised he was not happy and that was the only time okay I think that was like his last season or the season before he retired but ever since then like i said him if he was to come out what can he because if he speaks he has to defend it yeah because of his job i think for him for his legacy at west ham would be him he's made money is to step away for now and just and call it out you know do like what he does yeah and and just call it out and and i'm telling you if we get new owners i'm sure they'd

55:24Nicky Hawkins: love to have him back because he is mr west ham but i also think that they're smart in that way and I think this is one of the issues. Instead of dealing with problems, they'd rather silence them and they know by having him on the books because if he speaks,

55:39Dan Lawless: the whole thing will listen.

55:41Nicky Hawkins: So if you've got him on the books and say, you can't say a single thing, they've stifled that voice.

55:47Dan Lawless: Does he need it though? Does he have to be on? I know he loves the club and wants to work with his job. Does he need what? Does he need the money from the club? Of course he doesn't. He could make money anywhere. He can make money anywhere but yeah, I get that. he ain't got to worry about money. As a footballer now, he ain't got to worry about a pound note. But if someone's offering, I don't know what he's on, 40, 50, 30, 20 a week or whatever, you're not going to turn your nose up at it.

56:09Nicky Hawkins: To stand there and play golf, when they're just turning, just stay away. Just stay away. You ain't got to do nothing.

56:14Dan Lawless: But I think deep down, imagine how he's feeling deep down. Deep down, he ain't going to be happy. But he knows he can't say nothing. Yeah. That's the problem. I'm sure he could get jobs in football anyway. Listen, he'd make a great pundit, I think. Do you know what's funny as well? You look at West Down. You know, West Ham, in revenue, we're 20th in the amount of turnover we do as a football club globally.

56:36Nicky Hawkins: In the world, yeah. We were 12th at one point.

56:37Dan Lawless: Unreal. Yeah, yeah. So who's going to come in then and buy the club? Who's going to come in and take on David Sullivan's shares? Why does David Sullivan want to keep at the club when no one likes him? He's an egomaniac, I think. I think it's ego. Because it's got to be at his age, right? look he's got his missus and all of that you think you'd want to stay on the yacht and then just enjoy the rest of his life but i think you're in so deep in walking away would be like an admission that he lost we won but in terms of at the moment it seems like kratinsky's the only person and listen i've got massive doubts on kratinsky he's supposed to be up in his shares and could eventually i think there's a clause where he gets first refusal with sullivan's that shares and there's a lot that said that's been people unhappy about how he runs royal mail he hasn't really been hands-on with west ham i think he when he come in he does best of some money so i've got doubts over him however he's a serious businessman and sullivan isn't so he seems to be someone apart from that amanda steveley has been heavily linked and she's the one obviously he was involved in the man city takeover the newcastle takeover so a lot of middle east connections you know so that's the one that could be the dream where she can come in and get us like newcastle man city that's the dream it's waiting for it but what are they going to buy when someone comes in the amount of debt they've got number one and you don't own just you don't own your state you don't own your stadium they're buying the west end badge they're buying the club yeah that's it yeah and you're buying that you're buying the future turnover the revenue and you're buying that but you look at it you're making a loss yeah so if you're making a hundred million pound loss what are you actually buying you're coming in and you're gonna have to have some real deep pockets and who's going to come in and our dream don't get me wrong it's to knock the stadium down and build a all singing and dancing but like i've said before on here like 1.2 billion to build tottenham today that'd be 2 billion and build west ham no one's going to come in and drop

58:35Nicky Hawkins: two bill i don't think you need to i don't think you need to that would be the dream but i can't

58:40Dan Lawless: see anyone in the right mind unless you are worth oh well i'll let you take this one copious

58:45Nicky Hawkins: you've had previous did you ever did you ever fool out with simon jordan yeah

58:51Dan Lawless: yeah i had a massive and it was about so so this was the second time on talk sport so i was on with simon jordan the first week and i know i knew what he was coming with right so it was about the protest so i had an answer for everything what i said i sort of shut him up so they got me on again and you could tell he was he was ready to gun for me so he was asking me oh what you know what would you like to happen what would you like to happen i said oh my my hope is one day we can you know get a new stadium i said that's what my hope is not what my demand not my expectation and he was like he just went mental on me grow up you expect a new owner to come in and spend two billion pounds He said that, is he?

59:35Dan Lawless: Yeah. All live? Yeah, all live. It's on there. Yeah, it's on there. Yeah, so it's all on YouTube and Instagram and that. You expect it's like, he was going mad at me. Grow up. How can you expect that? And I'm like, whoa, like. Just a dream. Yeah, I said, you don't know. I was telling him like, okay, you've got the price of everything, of every stadium and everything. He's like, no one's building new stadiums now. And then he goes and said, do you know what the new owners at Newcastle need to do? Build them a new stadium. So. Yeah, okay. So with that, I will say this. I imagine part of Spurs' costs for the stadium was the land as well.

1:00:11Dan Lawless: Now, obviously, you'd have to buy the land. I think with the land that comes in, I think there's probably going to be an appetite for the government or the council, London, to get rid of it. However, selling it to Sullivan, I think, would be a lot less palatable of to say, look, we've lost. If you get a new person come in and go, look, he's gone, who was part of this original bad deal. We're going to make this good choice for the taxpayer to save money. Look, we've been relegated. It cost the taxpayer 2.5 million us getting relegated. So I think there's more of a chance of us getting that stadium at a decent price with a new owner that's not Sullivan.

1:00:52Dan Lawless: I mean, Sullivan and Brady and the London mayor don't have the best relationship because she politicized herself, you know, was on the opposition. so I think there's a chance look it's a pipe dream like you said someone's got to have deep deep pockets ridiculously deep and no one British will have those pockets no they definitely won't

1:01:09Nicky Hawkins: but what Simon Jordan said there and Simon Jordan has been on record this week you know he very much likes to antagonise especially fans he hates fans he hates fans he doesn't think we should have an opinion he's worked at a football failed by the way not he wasn't successful at Crystal Palace failed he's a failed football owner but anyone inside or outside that football shouldn't have an opinion he's had a go with the guys at AFTV this week right but then he's going who's building new stadiums well Southampton's got one Arsenal have got one Tottenham have got one Everton have got one Sunderland have got one Brighton have got one

1:01:48Dan Lawless: Newcastle are going to get one

1:01:50Nicky Hawkins: Newcastle are going to get one Chelsea want one Crystal Palace are just about to build one he's old club and the Premier League that's eight have got new stadiums so who's building new stadiums well after bloody Premier League so you cannot and if you was a business owner and if you was smart and you really wanted to you know because we've lost a lot of people that have gone away because of the stadium if you was a smart business owner and you wanted to attract people back to your brand you'd build them the thing that they need because that's what we need we need a home I need a home and it doesn't

1:02:21Dan Lawless: have to be this world class best stadium in the world I would take

1:02:24Nicky Hawkins: something less than that I would take a 25-30 thousand seat stadium tomorrow no one would do that of course

1:02:30Dan Lawless: like no one would go and do that but what I'm saying is it doesn't have to be like Spurs is stadium is ultimate it's got a cheese room cheese room bakery it's an unreal stadium I love going to stadiums all around the world I love stadiums that experience you know I put on festivals it's all about experience for me when I go to a London stadium the experience is really poor

1:02:50Nicky Hawkins: and that's someone who loves stadiums that's someone who loves stadiums I love it

1:02:54Dan Lawless: I love you know bringing people together how can we make this better but I don't think they ever think about how they They can make the atmosphere better. Is it ever spoken about internally? They spoke to us. Like, I would love to grab West Ham and go, listen, let's sit round the table. This is what I do for a living. We did. Do you know what their answer was? Flags. Do you ever go there when they had these people, non-West Ham fans, unenthusiastically at half time waving these West Ham flags like that? And that was their answer. And it's like, this is crazy. the thing is right we can we can we can be upset there's nothing we can do no do you know what I mean we can see it be upset and I'm sure there's a hardcore of hundreds of thousands of West Hamers who feel exactly the same but what we're going to do moving forward we're in the championship we're going to have a refresh we need to get back up and I want to get because there's no reason why that stadium by the way because I've been there on European nights and the atmosphere has been unbelievable I was there the Arsenal game a couple of weeks ago and the atmosphere was fantastic it can be done but there's nothing worse when you go in with a pessimistic attitude as a fan going in there again you know what I'm not going to fucking sing because I don't like the owner imagine if you've got a new owner and he's waving and he's chucked money in there we're moving forwards I'm going to talk to you I'll communicate to those fans finally and you're all beyond I love the owner let's get singing more for our club and the owner and the club that would be a beautiful feeling you need that singing section because where I was why don't they just put everyone down one end and why don't put their way fans up in the corner why would you want to give an advantage to an away team on the goal what i don't understand that you've got a new castle you're up in the corner yeah you've got a palace you've got the wherever you go shove them up the corner but i thought what was good at upton park in a way and what brought out the best of our fans is you had them away fans so close right next door so if they piped up then you'd have the chicken rung yeah and the trevor brookin low at them they're competing so it would enhance the atmosphere enhance the noise yeah but you have that where i where i was right it was a lot of singers right it was about 20 of us right that would sing and then people would join in lots of David Essex and that people would yeah yeah I was good I was best mates of his son for years was you yeah I used to see him David used to take me up in in the late 80s he used to take us to Upton Park yeah me his son Danny we'd go in the changing rooms would get they'd give us a West Ham full track suit the kit a ball it was going like going standing in the North Bank for years and all of a sudden game with David he had to run out of the place didn't he yeah and a beautiful human being

1:05:21Nicky Hawkins: and I've met him I've seen him there my mum absolutely in the 70s and 80s he was like Bobby Williard yeah he was that level

1:05:31Dan Lawless: he used to take a ski he used to take a south of France he had a massive gaff in the south of France David Essex's times were fantastic what was your thoughts when Harry Redknapp was running the club manager of the club at the time

1:05:43Nicky Hawkins: I enjoyed enjoyable days enjoyable days obviously he had the stuff with Billy and you know Billy's not here anymore and we've heard that you know over the years and that didn't but I was a kid I didn't really understand all of that sort of the rivalry and I know some people you know feel about him a certain way but you can't knock the you know the time it was we was the underdogs you know we wasn't expecting anything you know we was going in there and having to sell million pound this and you know the wheeler deal of days yeah

1:06:14Dan Lawless: and I thought it was fantastic I loved those seven years when he was on there but I also loved the Billy Bonds days as well yeah yeah Billy Bonds you'd have 90 minutes of that yeah yeah and then it went Harry Reynolds oh man that feeling yeah miss him that feeling but this is and what a wonderful human being Billy Bonds was yes yes on the pitch off the pitch respect hard as nails loved the club did you reckon the club treated him well once he'd retired could they have done better

1:06:43Nicky Hawkins: I heard and this is what I heard he's a lot of Billy's you know because we've only just had the stand named after him Billy refused a lot of the accolades okay so they wanted just because of his character just because of him yeah he's humble yeah and he didn't feel that he wanted to put himself in the spotlight or you know with the stand and everything else but once he because they was we spoke to him you know there should be an honour to Billy but he's one of our greatest ever you've got Bobby there you've got Trevor yeah there should be Billy you know they're the trio and well we've tried for years and Billy refuses it and then I think when you saw and this is the kind of guy he was because I met him a few times and I was lucky enough to meet him a few times because he's probably one of the best human beings you'd ever meet but when they named that stand after and they finally got him to because he deserves it he deserves it more than anybody even the two that are there and Bobby's obviously going to be the poster boy for West Ham but there's no one more West Ham and Billy for me and when they finally got into him you could see how much it meant to him and how much he appreciated the fans when he came on the pitch with that tear in his eye crying and he always was like that but he would never ever put himself front and centre you know it was always for someone if he had to do it he would do it but he never wanted to put himself front and centre and he didn't think he was deserving of it and just a humble gentleman absolute gentleman

1:08:12Dan Lawless: do you know what I think would be a lovely way to finish for Sullivan is to package something up I was going to say I didn't want to say what I was going to say but to package something up get good someone good in with a lot of money who wants to take the club to a whole new level and hand that over to them and him walk away and go do you know what I did my stint there do you know what I would think would be that would that would that would that would change your perspective my perspective of him going do you know what you're in trouble now none of the fans like it it's not going to go away package it up something nice for us and move on there's too much walk under the bridge there's too much walk

1:08:48Nicky Hawkins: under the bridge do you know what would be the first step if he turned around and went I was completely wrong I was completely wrong you were right I got it wrong

1:08:58Dan Lawless: it takes a strong man to do that it takes a strong man to do that I think the time there's a period where I think that could have happened and I think it's just gone on too long and I've said I said that years ago, I said, for Sullivan, right, if it's about his legacy, like, his legacy now will be taking us from Upton Park and eventually getting us relegated. But he could have gone and handed us on to super owners, right, say Newcastle's owners come in, and they spent the money and got us up. He could have went, look, I took West Ham, I got them, you know.

1:09:33Nicky Hawkins: Put your foundations in.

1:09:34Dan Lawless: And all that, and I got this ownership. And he could have said, it's in a better place than when I left it. It was nearly on the brink of bankruptcy. So here's my question then. If a new owner come in, same as someone like Turkey, you know, the boxing promoter. Say if he come in and went, you know what, I've got a lot of money here and I'm going to do this and I do this and I do this and I do this. Do you think the atmosphere at the club would be a hell of a lot better on match days? Do you think that we could get 60 odd fouls and really singing behind it and getting behind it? Do you believe that we would have trust in someone?

1:10:02Dan Lawless: It improved for Newcastle. When Newcastle was up, because I went Newcastle before and after their owners. When I went under Ashley, it was awful atmosphere. it was so downtrodden when the new owners came in they had hope and optimism it lifted them up yeah so I think it would help definitely if his fans felt like but we're optimistic West Ham fans we're optimistic we have to be

1:10:25Nicky Hawkins: yeah we have been

1:10:26Dan Lawless: we have to be but surely we can carry the optimism into next season but I think

1:10:29Nicky Hawkins: it's just that stage is welcome Dodge it's just that stage is welcome

1:10:32Dan Lawless: he's been way too long

1:10:33Nicky Hawkins: yeah what's an analogy

1:10:35Dan Lawless: we can use for that you know when someone's been outstayed they're welcome

1:10:37Nicky Hawkins: yeah bad smell mate yeah that's what he is is a bad smell and he's not welcome there anymore but

1:10:45Dan Lawless: imagine imagine you being the owner

1:10:47Nicky Hawkins: that's horrible

1:10:48Dan Lawless: it must be horrible being the chairman going I've pumped this money because he's pumped money in

1:10:51Nicky Hawkins: he has pumped money in he also took a lot of money out

1:10:53Dan Lawless: and he's taking money out on loans and whatever but imagine pumping money in and imagine going to work on a Saturday it's not really work but he's going there going everyone's looking at me and not liking me I'd be like I want out I want to package something out for someone to take it on I've done my time

1:11:06Nicky Hawkins: can you imagine if you went to the festival you're at the festival you go to the festival and you're walking around And 10 minutes before it ends, someone goes, you've got to get out of here because they're going to lynch you. What would you do? You'd go, I'm not going there next year. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:11:19Dan Lawless: He will be there. That atmosphere, that photo here of me and my old man on that last game of Upton Park at the Man United one, seeing 36 ,000 men crying, singing, like... It gives me goosebumps.

1:11:30Nicky Hawkins: It gives me goosebumps, yeah. To think about it.

1:11:32Dan Lawless: It's the best atmosphere I've ever experienced at a football game. I couldn't believe how many, because we were outside and there was no old bill about it. Do you know when the team bus come and everyone framed a bolt? it got put back an hour and a half or something, or an hour on Sky Sports, wasn't it?

1:11:47Nicky Hawkins: Yeah.

1:11:47Dan Lawless: Yeah, that was a shame because they closed down the pubs. Oh, did they close down the birdies? Yeah, you couldn't go there after. We had the police charging us and everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was mad. But yeah, so all the pubs, because I had people that was coming to go and watch it in the bowling and all that, but no, afterwards. So we couldn't, people couldn't have a drink afterwards around the air, which was the sad thing. But in that game, and if you could have ripped that script for that game you couldn't have Man United at home for the last time yeah for us to go 2-1 down and then and honestly I went no not today just not today just this one the same please no and when we come back and scored that winner mate yeah I get emotional just thinking about it it's amazing so lads moving forwards West Ham TV what are your plans for next season in the championship are you excited about going to loads of different cities towns and cities

1:12:41Nicky Hawkins: he don't go anywhere he's lazy right well no I'm the he does the operations so I'm the one that goes to the towns I'm telling you now I'm not just saying this I was sick of the Premier League I was sick of it I'm sick of going to places VARs and you know places like Arsenal where you there is some yeah there is some tasty tasty fixtures next year and there is some tasty tasty rivalries all through that I think it's going to be fantastic and I look forward to going to places like Lincoln you know people you know people keep on Portsmouth yeah Portsmouth but Lincoln especially because people are using that as this because Lincoln have just come up enjoying Lincoln away and they're thinking they're insulting and I'm like I'm excited for it I'm really I'm waiting for that one

1:13:30Dan Lawless: I hope that's the first game of the season let's reel through some clubs in the championship that you're excited by Millwall obviously yeah Wrexham I really hope they don't stop the away fans going on both games I really if anyone's listening that will listen to us but it'd be lovely if we could have away fans on both

1:13:48Nicky Hawkins: Wrexham would be interesting yeah Wrexham

1:13:49Dan Lawless: I said because you know the documentary brilliant followed that that'd be good

1:13:55Nicky Hawkins: yeah there's a lot Wolves is going to be an interesting one because Wolves come down with us so it's going to be Wolves away is terrible it's terrible I've heard that no I don't mind it you know

1:14:04Dan Lawless: the problem is with Wolves not the area listen I went we went and saw East 17 in the Christmas market it was brilliant but the proper e-70 yeah well yeah a lot of schneidy one not bright brian arvey weren't there because they've kicked him out but the rest were proper and they got some young lad it was decent like but we just been we just lost the wolves so um but it's the way they have the away end it's just spread out the atmosphere it's one of the worst atmospheres on away in

1:14:28Nicky Hawkins: funny enough i work for a company that's just sponsored walls okay so i was there yesterday funny enough but they they are saying even they don't like the away where the away section is because as you walk out the tunnel, because they were telling me yesterday, they've given me a stadium tour, you walk out and all you can see is away fans. We don't want that. We want them up there. I don't like being, he can't put us up there. He can't put us up there.

1:14:51Dan Lawless: I'd rather do that if it was condensed. There's a lot of old traditional clubs. It's the new clubs.

1:14:59Nicky Hawkins: I think that's going to be a great battle because I don't think they're going to go down. I think they're going to be one of the challenges next year. Portsmouth, I think is a fantastic old ground. Preston Preston is a great old ground places like Lincoln

1:15:12Dan Lawless: you're going to get some proper gritty fans as well they're knowing that West Ham are coming up on a jolly as well

1:15:19Nicky Hawkins: well they were saying to us again I was talking to some people when we went down first time there was things that West Ham did that enraged people which give them the motivation like Mido when we had Mido and he turned up at a Bentley or a Rolls Royce and parked it in a car park with a driver and all that and they're playing Wolves for a relegation they're like we're getting into these these can't take it when we went to I think it was Gillingham I may be wrong and we looked at the changing room we were changing the bus and they were like who the who do you think you are this is where you are this is your level now and it was things like that so hopefully they don't get too prima donna because that place at London State they're going to go there it's going to be like an holiday camp for them you know what I mean so yeah

1:16:05Dan Lawless: I think next season I'm excited by it Championship is exciting New adventure New adventure We need it Refresh Blackburn Yeah up north Midlands Burnley Yeah brilliant Yeah just to see To see just how We'll get on against These teams I think we'll be a lot Of teams cup final Against Of course Because we are They'll all raise Their game But we've got I think there'll be More excitement From the away West Ham Going away Yeah Than going to the Big clubs we've been Going to for a long time And then when we get Back in the Premier League Next season we hope I think the excitement Will go to a whole new level And by that time hopefully Sullivan can pass the club on oh yeah yeah listen the away games are enjoyable like I said like I I do the watch alongs right so watch along where people I watch the game and people join and we watch it together people like so there's people that are abroad that can't get to games anymore that have that sense of community why you know they're all in the chat they're chatting to me I'm reading out their chat to see me I'm reacting to the game live so that's what I So we wanted to make sure we had one for every game because our audience would be disappointed if there weren't one.

1:17:09Dan Lawless: This is the first season apart from, well, Arsenal away I went, but I think I had someone do it for me for that one. Name one player. Who's your all-time great West Ham player for you, Nick? Paolo.

1:17:20Nicky Hawkins: Paolo was mine. Yeah. Yeah.

1:17:22Dan Lawless: You, Dan? All-time great. I mean, that covers so many in terms of quality. Just who I love. Just for you. Just for you. Off the cuff now. oh listen noble's my guy yeah he's not the best but he's someone that i would watch and i would say west ham he's a west ham player because west ham it's not always about who's the best players about who the grafters are and he was a grafter i'll follow the canio for me i'd like to name a few in fact i go julian dicks i could just go on you can go on and on and on he was great declan was one of mine yeah yeah yeah 100 gents i thoroughly enjoyed this thank you so much yeah I really enjoyed it that was a bit of

1:18:02Nicky Hawkins: like a therapy session good yeah I really enjoyed good man

1:18:05Dan Lawless: good good good thank you for making the effort to come down to Bournemouth no problem at all appreciate that no problem and I wish you all the best West Ham TV anyone watching out there go and subscribe to these and I've got a new

1:18:13Nicky Hawkins: channel so local Nicky that's very interesting yeah

1:18:17Dan Lawless: cheers gentlemen thank you mate nice one respect everything you're doing cheers boys hi guys I really hope you enjoyed that as much as I did can you do us a favour and leave us a review as it massively helps us grow the show Cheers, guys.

1:18:59Dan Lawless: podcast specialists are there to help you launch with confidence. This is podcast advertising without barriers. Get started at acast.com slash advertise.