#350. 21 Signs You’re Married to a Female Narcissist (They Never Change) - Phillip Dugas

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0:34This ad is sponsored by ZocDoc. Hi, it's Danny Pellegrino from Everything Iconic. Have you been putting off that annual doctor's appointment because you don't want to make the call? Or maybe you've been meaning to find a new dentist, but you have no idea where to start. I find that's especially true when you move. It's hard to find your people. I've been there, which is why I use ZocDoc. Now, as a busy podcaster, parent, and someone who's always juggling a million things, I love anything that makes life easier. And ZocDoc lets you search and compare local in-network doctors with over 250 ,000 providers across more than 200 specialties.

1:07You can read reviews from real patients, find a provider who feels like the right fit, see actual appointment openings, and book instantly. I recently had a last-minute health issue pop up and needed to see someone fast. And instead of calling around or sitting on hold, I found a doctor on ZocDoc and booked an appointment in just a few minutes. It made the whole process so much less stressful. Now, taking care of your health just got easier. Download the ZocDoc app today. That's ZocDoc, Z-O-C-D-O-C, and book that appointment on your to-do list. If your fashion wishlist lives rent-free in your brain, you need to be on Poshmark.

1:43With Poshmark, you're shopping millions of listings from thousands of closets, each curated by someone with their own style. Vintage finds, designer pieces, and everyday staples, all in one place. Search for your favorites or let the discovery come to you. Poshmark makes it easy to find what you actually want to wear at prices that feel like a quiet win. Download the Poshmark app today and use code AUDIO10 when you sign up to get$10 off your first purchase. Narcissists are master actresses. Staying in an abusive relationship costs you slowly and forever. A lot of these narcissistic women, one of their tactics is isolation.

2:23So they want to isolate you from your friends, you know, close relatives. Basically, what gaslighting is, someone causes you to kind of doubt your own reality. So, for example, let's say you bring something up that happened. You're acting crazy. You're being abusive. You are the problem. You are the narcissist. You're making things up. Gaslighting makes a man question his memory, his judgment, his instincts. and even his character. Physical bullying, which is visual, right? You can see some bruises, you can see this, but emotionally bullying, you can't see anything. What are the five red flags of a female narcissist?

3:07That's a great question. So basically what you're going to want to look for are things like...

3:14You know what's interesting with this whole subject is that I've got a few friends who have come out of relationships and they didn't realize they were in a toxic, narcissistic relationship. And then it's only when they've come out, they've realized there's not a lot of men who actually understand it. So today's really important that we get as much information out there for any bloke listening to this. But I think let's roll all the way back. Why did you write The Narcissistic Wife? That's one of my few books, but that book has just, it's really taken off. I'd say it's the most popular book that I've written.

3:50And basically in a nutshell, what I do is in this book is I teach men, you know, the patterns to look for. A lot of men don't know what it is they're dealing with. And so this book basically just teaches them how narcissistic women control and manipulate men and how to break free. And so this book is basically for the man who feels trapped, who feels confused, blamed, and emotionally exhausted in his toxic marriage. Again, it's going to help men recognize those patterns, whether it be gaslighting, blame-shifting, emotional manipulation, lack of accountability, the public charm the the private cruelty he experiences and just the slow erosion of a man's confidence so so the main thing there phil i'm taking there it doesn't just happen overnight it's like a slowly eating away eating away eating away that the guy kind of loses i loses his identity a little bit gets broken down to how she wants him to be an act exactly exactly So really, it does happen slowly over time because at first, she may seem great, right?

5:14During the dating stage of your relationship, everything seems perfect, right? She loves everything you love, values everything you value. She love bombs you like crazy. She comes on really, really fast and wants to move things fast. so and over the years it just slowly deteriorates and again this book that i wrote it's it's for the man who you know who's in who's in a marriage been there for a decade or more and he keeps asking himself am i the crazy one here uh am i the problem like or why you know why can i fix this why do i feel so weak in a relationship that i've tried so hard to save so it's for husbands fathers There's divorced men, even separated men and men still trying to understand what happened to them.

6:08It's especially for the man who has been suffering quietly because he didn't think anyone would believe him. It's interesting. I've got a friend who has been married for sort of like nine, ten years and he's pushed all his mates away and his family away. like no one can get to him now it's really weird and all of us mates are looking in going my god he's in a hugely narcissistic relationship there what does he do because i feel he feels trapped but i don't know whether he knows he feels trapped or whether alcohol and use of drugs covers that up the usage of both of them using both of him and his spouse yeah uh using yeah Yeah, that is a really good question, Dodge.

6:55So basically, yeah, you hit the nail on the head and a lot of these narcissistic women, one of their tactics is isolation. So they want to isolate you from your friends, you know, close relatives. A lot of these women have problems with the guy's mom. If she's still around, she'll want to, you know, not let her see the grandkids, stuff like that. And she'll say little things here and there about, oh, this friend of yours, so-and-so's coworker, he's a bad influence on you, right? this or that and so slowly over time she'll she'll isolate you and get you stuck to where she's the only one that you start you start believing uh and it's really sad actually um that that man gets stuck in this because they suffer in this silence for years and then when they look up and no one's around to help them and save them they they feel trapped and stuck and so that's where i want to come in and help them get clarity and get unstuck and break free ultimately yeah yeah what's gaslighting mean so gaslighting uh is also another popular term that that's been around the past few years but basically what gaslighting is is it's when someone causes you to kind of doubt your own reality.

8:31So for example, let's say you bring something up that happened and suddenly you are told it didn't happen that way, or you're being too sensitive, or you're acting crazy. You're being abusive. You are the problem. You are the narcissist. You're making things up. And over time, gaslighting makes a man question his memory his judgment his instincts and even his character uh that's why it's so dangerous if it it doesn't just attack you know the relationship uh it really attacks your ability to trust yourself what's interesting is uh in public like i think some women can act all lovely lovely in public but you don't know what's going on behind closed doors but when you're seeing your friend lose all his friends around him and his family around him surely that's the uh the telltale signs that you're stuck in a narcissistic relationship right yeah that's definitely one of the signs um so i i tell men this a lot you know the person who she is in public who she presents to be is not the same as she is behind closed doors and that's why a lot of men get so confused and feel trapped is because nobody would believe that she would act this way right like this this woman uh your wife she seems so so nice so great like everybody loves her uh the neighbors love her uh everybody at the kids school loves her uh her family thinks she's great and so as a man, if you tell someone, man, she's not who she pretends to be because narcissists are master actresses.

10:20And, you know, one version of her is this way and another version is the other. This guy at home is experiencing ongoing emotional, chronic, never going to stop abuse. he's walking on eggshells he he feels fear the moment he walks in or hears her pull into the into the into the house into the driveway into the garage uh he starts getting you know anxious um and just experiences all kinds of of health issues because of that internal stress he's carrying within him over the years of thinking he's the crazy one when in reality his he may be dealing with a female narcissist yeah and if you are if there's a bloke out there listening to this and it feels like that that is them if you've got any advice on what they should do because at the moment you've got physical bullying which is visual right you can see some bruises you could see this but emotionally bullying you can't see anything right so yeah what i think a should do first if he thinks he's in this kind of relationship is you know the first thing is to stop trying to win the argument and stop observing the pattern but I always tell men to write things down document and pay attention to what happens when you bring up a concern to her notice whether there is repair or retaliation notice whether she takes responsibility or accountability or flips it back onto you and blame shifts for everything.

12:03And then you get support. You talk to someone who's grounded. Don't isolate yourself because like we just talked about, isolation is, it makes the manipulation stronger. But clarity, clarity grows when you stop carrying it alone. So it's important that you surround yourself with the right people and you start noticing those patterns early so you can start preparing your exit strategy if that's what you want to do. Yeah. But how would you feel if you were the guy who is a real tough sportsman, big, strong man, and your wife is falling out with all your friends and falling out with all your family, which is essentially cutting your husband off to everyone?

12:55That's pure manipulation, surely? yeah absolutely um i mean i i talk to good men all the time strong men uh men who are you know business owners uh entrepreneurs uh in the entertainment business um i spoke with the guy who was a you know a u.s navy seal and recently and he's dealt with that as well. Yeah, it is really tough because it's all the same story. Their goal is to control you and they want to isolate or move you from any kind of outside influence that is going to make you kind of see what's really going on and get clarity and say, hey, well, this isn't normal relationship conflict that I'm dealing with here.

13:56This is something much different. And the thing is, as men, we want to try and fix things, right? So when we discover that, you know, we want to try and fix her, try and get her to change. Or a lot of men try and change themselves. They try and love her more. They try and go to marriage counseling together, couples therapy, they'll try and communicate better they'll try and do all these things but what they don't realize is if she is a full-blown narcissist narcissists rarely change if ever i've been studying that data for for years now and in the research and i would say about 99 of narcissists do not change and so for the man watching this i just want to tell you that you have to change you have to not let her isolate you you have to get strong enough to leave her wow but if there's kids involved say if you've got two or three kids involved all under the ages of 15 16 17 all the way down that's a tough one for any guy to make that move leave the kids knowing that you're in that relationship honestly that that's one of the the biggest things that i here in my in my line of work a lot a lot of men stay for years in these relationships because they have small children involved and they want to they don't want to break up the household the family dynamic they want to have two parents under one roof but here's the thing that i tell men you know is is how do kids get affected in these kind of relationships well your kids don't just listen to what we say, what we tell them.

15:47They're absorbing the emotional climate of the home, right? So if a child is watching one parent constantly dominate, manipulate, belittle, or blame the other, that child is learning a model of love, right? So they might learn that control is normal, that silence is safety, or that one parent's emotions rule the entire house. So that's why I tell men, your healing is not just about you. Your clarity may become the thing that breaks the cycle for your children. so if your children are hearing screaming and shouting and maybe the wife or the girlfriend is constantly at you but as a bloke most blokes just go oh just for the peace i can't bother to argue back that's probably not a good thing to do as a husband or as a partner surely just to keep silent and just take it on the chin every day because that's going to eat away at you every single 24 hours every week every month every year until you become a shell of yourself What I always tell men to do and encourage them to do is just to remain calm and have clear boundaries.

17:05You want to give her short, brief responses. So when she starts, what she starts trying to do is she starts trying to provoke you to a reaction, right? She wants to keep pushing your buttons, pushing your buttons till you, you know, go off on her, right? and so what you want to do and I know it's hard in that moment because it's heated and intense and things are being said against you but what you want to do is just remain calm steady give her short brief responses and say I'm not going to talk about this right now you know walk away and just have those clear boundaries in place to where you're not going to tolerate that kind of you know disrespect anymore when she's being yelling and verbally when she's yelling it and being verbally abusive to you you're gonna you know stand your ground and you're gonna you're gonna fight back fair and you're going to in that moment you're not gonna say well uh i guess this is it well i'm leaving and walk out the door and never come back kind of thing what you want to do is not announce that kind of an exit strategy and we can get into more about that a little bit later in this episode but that's kind of the basics of what you want to do when that kind of interaction happens what happens if you're in a situation where your other half is the breadwinner and she's bringing all the money and she's in control of the purse strings and just feeding you money to do the stuff so again it's even more control yeah in that situation that that is tough with their finances um it it's not going to be impossible to get out it's going to take some time what i would tell men if they are let's say a a stay-at-home dad or not working at the moment and she's bringing in the majority of the the income to the home i would say you got to take things slow and and steady you got to be strategic and plan your exit carefully so whether that's uh getting an idea of where your finances are at uh getting a job looking for a job looking whether it's a remote job whatever type of work to where you can generate some type of revenue and bringing your own income and yeah that is a big fear though dodge for a lot of men if if they are uh being financially controlled even if he's the one who let's say he's the he brings in the income and she's the stay at home, uh, mom and she controls everything, every, every penny that comes in with his paycheck.

19:51Well, that's where you got to have, you know, uh, a great financial strategy in place with a, a good family law attorney who can help you kind of navigate those things. Uh, which is not really my, my place to speak on the legal side of things, But yeah, that's basically what you want to do. You want to take your time, build up some income, generate some revenue, start saving, start searching for your own place, talking to a good, strong family law attorney and getting out of that situation. Do you know what's interesting? I find it personally astonishing that big bloke, strong men can get bullied by their other half.

20:39I just can't get my head around that personally, but I know it happens and it's happened to friends of mine. It's happening to people we know now. But like, I just, as I look in, the blokes can't really go and speak to their mates. Because if you are being emotionally bullied, you can't really go up to the lads down the pub, having a few pints and saying to one of them, I'm being emotionally bullied. Because most blokes would go, shut up, mate, sort yourself out. Don't miss, what are you talking about? Deal with it. Like that kind of attitude. But because it's only because people don't understand what it's like, I guess, to have a wife or girlfriend who is a narcissist.

21:17And that's why it's so important to have these conversations here, just so people, blokes listen to this, could actually relate to it and go, that's me. Or if it's not you, you might be a friend of his, that you're making sure that you're there, that if he ever wants to talk about it. But for a bloke to, for a man to really admit that he's being bullied at home is a real tough thing to do, I'd imagine. For those kind of men who are strong men, who in front of their blokes, they present this kind of alpha, this man who has it all together. But yeah, in the reality, they have no idea what's going on at home because like I said, they see the public version of her, right?

22:04They don't know what's happening behind the scenes. And it is hard for a man to talk about this. He's not going to say, man, I'm not sure if I'm dealing with abuse here, but man, I'm constantly walking on eggshells and constantly being gaslit and emotionally punished and I feel drained and this constant criticism. There's the private disrespect that I'm having and like nothing that I ever do is good enough. So, man, it is sad because, you know, a narcissistic wife, she wants the benefits, you know, of the marriage without the humility required, you know, for partnership. She wants loyalty. She wants the provision, the patience, the forgiveness and the emotional access.

23:04But she's not going to offer the things that a man needs, which a number one need for a man is respect. yeah or accountability uh or softness um so for a lot of men yeah that that creates a a painful question you know uh how am i doing everything i can but still being treated like the enemy and so when they tell their blokes that's what's happening to me no one really believes them and they yeah stay stuck yeah it's a difficult position to be in i guess but what's also interesting in a relationship at the start of the relationship like you're saying the gas lighting they'd be out holding hands showing affection to other people go ask the perfect couple and actually and then she speaks highly of him when they're out but as the years have gone on she speaks she talks down to him like he's a piece of dirt in public in front of people is that the bit where the husband has got to go hold on a minute enough is enough so yeah it is very difficult um when that does start happening but yeah that's why a lot of men you know they get stuck for years because they've just been enduring that behind closed doors and then it trickles out into the public eye and they don't know how to react they don't want to do because they're so accustomed to just being quiet and just listening to what she says and telling them telling them how to act and behave and what to do and so yeah they don't stand up for themselves they become you know codependent they they become they forget who they are you know their identity yeah um and just get confused and let her walk all over them unfortunately but i think that one you mentioned there is losing your identity yeah identity of being a sportsman professional sportsman in whatever sport big strong strapping blows hard as nails but actually behind closed doors you're getting uh controlled by someone it's uh yeah it's i know this is your living but i just find it absolutely astonishing that we're in that blokes can actually get controlled so much by their wife or their girlfriend it's only when they split up that the one my mates who i was going to split up like what was i doing for five years i had no confidence she put me down she made me she belittled me everywhere she made me feel i was the bad person like all of these things that my pals are now talking about because they're not in those relationships so we can have a few beers they're like jesus christ that was that was a mad five years or three years or whatever it was i'm so glad i'm out of that relationship i'm not going to do that again yeah yeah a lot of them uh once they finally wake up and get clarity on what it is they're actually dealing with and again a lot of these men are good strong men they're they're athletes they're um you know professional athletes they're they're entrepreneurs and yeah they just get beaten down and and belittle constantly and they wake up five ten years from now and maybe after the fact like man uh yeah what was what was i doing uh yeah uh how did i not see this coming out well what were the the red flags that I missed and so yeah a lot of my work is just helping men you know identify those signs those red flags get clarity on what it is they are actually dealing with and wake up get a plan of action to leave that abusive relationship because it's she's not going to change and so you just have to you have to separate yourself from that individual and ultimately if she is, you know, full-blown narcissist, then go through with divorce.

26:53What are the five red flags of a female narcissist? Hmm. That's a great question. So.

27:17the wrong bra or if the straps are digging into your shoulder or you're constantly adjusting throughout the day, it's definitely time to get a better fit. That's why we love Aerie. Their bras are designed to be the essential effortless first layer with soft fabrics, great fits, and up to 59 sizes so you can find the one that's right for you. Your bra should be holding you in, not holding you back. Visit Aerie.com to find the right bra for you. That's A-E-R-I-E.com. This ad is sponsored by ZocDoc. Hi, it's Danny Pellegrino from Everything Iconic. Have you been putting off that annual doctor's appointment because you don't want to make the call?

27:56Or maybe you've been meaning to find a new dentist, but you have no idea where to start. I find that's especially true when you move. It's hard to find your people. I've been there, which is why I use ZocDoc. Now, as a busy podcaster parent and someone who's always juggling a million things, I love anything that makes life easier. and ZocDoc lets you search and compare local in-network doctors with over 250 ,000 providers across more than 200 specialties. You can read reviews from real patients, find a provider who feels like the right fit, see actual appointment openings, and book instantly. I recently had a last-minute health issue pop up and needed to see someone fast.

28:31Instead of calling around or sitting on hold, I found a doctor on ZocDoc and booked an appointment in just a few minutes. It made the whole process so much less stressful. Now, taking care of your health just got easier. Download the ZocDoc app today. That's ZocDoc, Z-O-C-D-O-C, and book that appointment on your to-do list.

28:55Basically, what you're going to want to look for are things like, like we talked about earlier the the gaslighting the the blame shifting uh she'll have a a lack of empathy or lack of accountability uh if you try and call her out on some of her toxic behavior she's gonna deny that even happened she's gonna spin it turn around and call you the abuser it's the constant walking on eggshells and as far as the I guess technical or clinical term for like diagnosing someone with narcissistic personality disorder there is a list that psychologists, psychiatrists use called the DSM-5 so if any man listening to this, want to google that it'll tell you the exact like clinical definition of what to look for uh in these patterns but ultimately dodge it is a a consistent pattern over a long period of time not just one blow up not just one argument or fight with her it's it's a pattern it's a it's several things that that you notice that are happening to you over time and hopefully the next time if you're that man sitting in the pub talk with another another man about his relationship hopefully you'll know you know what to look what to look for in the next go around and learn how to how to choose better learn how to not marry or date another narcissist what if the other half the female girl wife or the girlfriend you constantly use his tears against you always crying yeah she's gonna that's gonna be one of her many tactics dodge she's gonna she's gonna she's gonna definitely put on that like i said they they are they are really good at acting and they're gonna to blame you for their toxic behavior so if you make them emotional yeah they're definitely going to shift the blame onto you and and make you feel bad about it and then you end up you know apologizing for things that you didn't even do or say so when that does happen just know she's trying to get you uh she's trying to get you where she wants you and that is to control you to manipulate you uh so she's gonna make you feel sorry for her like you're the bad guy you're the villain and a lot of guys end up unfortunately apologizing for things they didn't even do and so um yeah when that happens just know just to not take the bait um it's usually not for something that or maybe you set a boundary or said something uh to set her off but man that's just know that that's that's a tactic of of her of her tricks her bag of tricks and not to give into that not to give into the bait just set clear boundaries walk away from that and go on with your day basically they might be building you up building you up building you up to you get to the pressure cooker and then they can start crying on tears and stuff to pull you back in and get sympathy from you and then that's how the cycle starts and goes again and they can they can use sex against you i guess as well absolutely yeah they'll they'll use uh intimacy as a weapon i always say they uh they'll withhold affection from you uh withhold sex or either reward or punish you for that.

33:03And yeah, a lot of these men, they are in sexless marriages and relationships because of that, because maybe he's not doing what she wants him to do. It could be a number of things, Dodge, but yeah, that's definitely one of their tactics as well is withholding affection from you because that's also one of our deepest needs and desires as a man is to connect with your wife or with your girlfriend in that way. And when you feel constantly disrespected, which again is the number one need of a man is respect, and you're getting denied the physical intimacy constantly, that's that's a recipe for man just a really unhealthy and and toxic relationship and you need to get out what if your other half is a functioning alcoholic um drinking every day and wanting you to drink with her but you don't want to drink every single day um and they get guilt thrown on you for not joining in does that make does that suppress the guy's feelings because he's using alcohol all the time that he's just being suppressed the whole time yeah that's great question so so in the context of let's say she's a so she's a function a functioning alcoholic and he is is he a like a socially social drinker or does he not want to drink at all no social drinker loves a good drink on the weekend okay drinks with drinks with the boys but every day at home it's all about alcohol alcohol alcohol yeah i mean that's that's also another red flag dodge is a lot of narcissists do have you know addictions uh whether it's two different vices like alcohol or pornography uh sex they have a lot of them are are addicts and so if that's you and man i i would just set clear boundaries with her and say man i i am not i do not want to drink i do not want to put this stuff in my body every single day uh alcohol and i don't have a problem with people drinking uh i'll drink socially as well but like Like when she's pressuring him to drink with her every day, when she's getting her daily buzz, if you will, or drunk, then yeah, you got to set clear boundaries and just firmly tell her, I'm not doing this.

35:47This continues. You probably need to seek out help. um and and as she is she has those other narcissistic traits and qualities even if it's just a couple of them other than that addiction that's still enough to drive a man crazy and you know want to get out so that's what i would encourage him to do if he's in that situation say if a scenario that he was like um had that conversation look you're not you're an addict or an alcoholic stop drinking and then that person turns it around and puts it back on him and give him the guilt trip and saying how dare you call me that and put it back on him that he just goes you know what I've said my piece I'm never going to say it again until until one day hopefully the other half will wake up and goes I've been using alcohol extremely for decades now I need to stop I need to go into AA or I need to go and see someone and clean myself up because I'm destructing lots of relationships around me, you know?

36:47Yeah, absolutely. And if you're dealing with a normal, non-narcissist wife who maybe just has that one kind of vice she's dealing with, with alcoholism, then yeah as a good loving partner you're going to want to you know get her help uh because yeah if that is a daily thing i'm not now if it's like a daily glass of wine or whatever with a dinner that's fine yeah sure whatever yeah yeah that's that's totally fine but i mean if it's uh you know a problem where you're abusing this substance then yeah you need to get up you need to get that person help. If you do want to continue in this marriage, this relationship, you got to get them help because they're, they're an addict and they need to get that help.

37:42Um, but if she is again, if she is a, an actual female narcissist with several traits of narcissism, including that, then mate, you need to, you need to find a way to get strong enough to leave that abuser. If you are in a relationship with a narcissistic wife, you can't see that you're stuck, but you know that all your friends and family are looking in and we're all seeing that he's trapped. That person is trapped in that relationship.

38:29you get home, it's probably the wrong bra. Or if the straps are digging into your shoulder or you're constantly adjusting throughout the day, it's definitely time to get a better fit. That's why we love Aerie. Their bras are designed to be the essential effortless first layer with soft fabrics, great fits, and up to 59 sizes. So you can find the one that's right for you. Your bra should be holding you in, not holding you back. Visit Aerie.com to find the right bra for you. That's A-E-R-I-E dot com. This ad is sponsored by ZocDoc. Hi, it's Danny Pellegrino from Everything Iconic. Have you been putting off that annual doctor's appointment because you don't want to make the call?

39:10Or maybe you've been meaning to find a new dentist, but you have no idea where to start. I find that's especially true when you move. It's hard to find your people. I've been there, which is why I use ZocDoc. Now, as a busy podcaster parent and someone who's always juggling a million things. I love anything that makes life easier. And ZocDoc lets you search and compare local in-network doctors with over 250 ,000 providers across more than 200 specialties. You can read reviews from real patients, find a provider who feels like the right fit, see actual appointment openings, and book instantly. I recently had a last-minute health issue pop up and needed to see someone fast.

39:45And instead of calling around or sitting on hold, I found a doctor on ZocDoc and booked an appointment in just a few minutes. It made the whole process so much less stressful. Now taking care of your health just got easier. Download the ZocDoc app today. That's ZocDoc, Z-O-C-D-O-C, and book that appointment on your to-do list.

40:08You can't reach out to that person and say we're here because all his friends and family have been cut off due to his narcissistic relationship um of the wife falling out of everyone and pushing him basically pushing them all away so she's got total control of him but it's hard to pick up the phone anyone uh whether it's family or friends to pick up the phone just to let you know we're here for you because he might not want that and he might not want to hear that there's going to be a point one day that he's going to realize and when he stepped out he realized that we're all there for him still yeah it is tough because uh you know kind of like what we just discussed a little bit earlier, you know, a lot of these men that they don't want to speak out against their wife because they, men, you know, we want to fix things, right?

40:55We want to try and do whatever we can to fix the relationship, to maybe think that you are the problem. Maybe you need to own up on some things, but here's the answer. So if there's a man listening who, you know, is in a narcissistic marriage, toxic relationship, what you want to do is you're going to want to get educated. And so you're going to want to learn the patterns that we talked about, that constant pattern to look out for the red flags, the signs. If you don't know what those are, I do have a free resource, a free book that I offer men on my website. it's called 21 signs she might be a narcissist so it's a free ebook man can read through it'll tell you just 21 signs of what to look out for the red flags etc so learn those signs learn their patterns read the books you know listen uh because you can't fix that pattern right she has those patterns of constant uh emotional abuse and all the signs of a narcissist you can't fix her so know that for sure and then again it's so important that you start documenting everything um dates times what was said um what the outcome of that interaction was it could be just a simple you know log like a date what happened what was said not to obsess over everything but once it's on paper i tell them that your brain can stop replaying it at 2 a.m you know so the next thing is to break the silence with you know safe people only i i know we talked about how one of their tactics and narcissistic tactic is to isolate you so it's crucial that you have mates that are in your corner who who understand what's really going on and who can could help you see through the fog because so many men get mental you know fog brain fog from from being in this for so long they don't know what's what anymore and so surrounding yourself with the right people with safe people, a brother, a therapist, even a counselor, a men's group.

43:28And if divorce is on the table, which it should be, if she's a narcissist, then like I said, you're going to need a good family law attorney who understands these high conflict cases before he announces anything and i always add if there's ever you know a question of of physical safety that's that's uh what professionals handle immediately not not in a podcast or a book but you get professional help and so basically yeah that that's that's basically what you want to do uh it's going to take a while uh several months to up to a year but just stay calm get documented get clear get support get in community in that order is what i would say do you know i found interesting your point where you mentioned a minute ago phil was your point about a narcissist will never change so if you're coming home every day like i love coming home to peace every day i I get excited about going home to my wife because we're in a peaceful home.

44:40But imagine going back home when you're at work, not wanting to go back home, walking on eggshells, knowing you're going to go back into chaos or knowing you don't know how she's going to react of you coming home late from work or being on your case of who you're speaking to, why were you there, what time are you there? Imagine having that to deal with every single day of your life, that you're going home stressed, that your cortisol level has just risen every time you drive into your drive. As you open the door, you don't know which type of your wife you're going to get. That must be like closest thing to hell, knowing that you're not in a calm place.

45:24Right. Yeah, it definitely is. I mean, there's men I talk to who are just, you know one wanting to stay longer at work because they don't want to go home to their their wife they want to go home to see their kids because they love their kids and want to be there for them but like we talked about earlier the the second he he gets home it's like boom he can feel energy right you can feel the the energy in the room shift and it can be you know a micro facial expression she has when you walk in you can tell by the way she throws the you know the dishes into the sink you can know what kind of mood she's in uh right when you walk in the door and so yeah that is tough for a man because he's going from being in this work environment where he feels appreciated and respected and and welcomed when he goes home it's the total opposite he feels like He is in a living hell.

46:26And so what I want to do for the man is give him hope that you are not stuck. And I just want to paint a picture for him. What does his future look like if he stays with her versus if he leaves? And so I can tell him the honest math and the pattern of her doing this. it doesn't age into kindness. She doesn't change over time. She often gets worse with age. So the path of staying unchanged, no boundaries, no plan of action looks kind of more of what you already have, right? But compounding, the eggshells, they don't soften. His world keeps shrinking. The man his kids watch keeps getting smaller and quieter.

47:20and 10 more years of it doesn't cost 10 years. It costs the version of him that could have existed. Now, the other path, and to be honest about this too, leaving is, it's brutal at first. I'm not gonna sugarcoat that. The divorce process with a narcissist is ugly. The smear campaign, the lonely apartment, the grief you experience it's a valley but it's a valley with a far side there are brighter days ahead the men i work with a year or two out of this all say a you know as a version of the same thing i forgot what my own mind sounded like you know they start laughing again that they sleep better.

48:13Some find love again. This time they have their eyes open though. So staying in an abusive relationship costs you slowly and forever, but leaving costs you brutally and once. Neither one is free brother, but only one of them has a far side and that side is peace. Yeah. That's a great bit of advice there, Phil. So basically what you're saying is You can either carry on in the toxic relationship and it will carry on for the next three, five, 10 years. Nothing will change. It will just get worse. You'll be a tiny version of what you used to be. You'll get eaten away and eroded. Or you leave the relationship knowing that you've got 12 months of her on your case, but you've got lawyers involved that you're fighting the way through it.

49:05You're free. And then there's light at the end of the tunnel. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. it it is going to be a process but um and and once you start the process of leaving her yeah it's you got to make sure you find the right tough mean attorney not some weak passive attorney who's gonna who doesn't understand these high conflict dynamics with a narcissist so yeah it's crucial that you do your homework, your research, and find the right one in your area because she's more than likely going to hire some sleazeball attorney to fight dirty. And so if you come into that courtroom, though, as the prepared man who is well-documented and you have records, dates, times, evidence, that's going to help you a lot in this process.

50:08And then when you're out of it, yeah, that's when the rebuilding phase starts. That's when you start rebuilding your life. So you're in your own place. And hopefully I always encourage men to start going to the gym if they're not already consistently. Start working on their mental health by listening to good podcasts like yours, reading good books and feeding their mind with positivity and optimism because they've been beaten down for so long and they need to rebuild themselves from the ground up and become basically the 2.0 version of themselves. And yeah, that all starts, what I tell them, it all starts in the gym.

50:55um that's the trail of the of the personal development side of things just everything compounds off that so men get out and then work on yourself get healed uh get lean and jack make a lot of money and uh you'll be just fine yeah yeah yeah also uh a red flag of a narcissist i guess is a is someone who can only keep relationships for a year nine months they bring people in they love bomb them tell how beautiful they are nice they are they get them around for parties they do all this everything's amazing and then every single one of those relationships the wife or the girlfriend loses and they go on to the next person they go to the next person and the next person until the amount of people run out and the word out there gets the word out there is to say run a million miles if this person comes anywhere near you She's going to want to sabotage your relationships and basically want to use people for her advantages because narcissists are extremely selfish people.

52:05For a woman in particular, what I've seen in the space is they're mostly covert. So it is a lot harder to detect them. Whereas if let's say I'm a pick on the man for a second here, if it was a, a man who was a narcissist generally you would see that bloke from a mile away coming, right? He's, he's overt, he's over the top loud in your face, aggressive and obvious signs of, of narcissism in him. Right. But with, with the woman, it's more subtle. it's more cunning and yeah she'll definitely leverage those type of relationships to get what she wants and then if she has them in her corner she'll tell everybody uh that she knows in that circle of influence that who you really are you know that you are she's the one who's the victim and he's the narcissist.

53:08Yeah. And she'll go on this, you know, smear campaign about how you're abusive to her and how he changed all of a sudden and this and that. And so, yeah, it's just a constant never any cycle with a narcissist. Well, basically what I'm gaining from this film is that if anyone identifies or anyone's listening out there who is in this relationship, don't think that it must just be you going oh it's just my missus but i'll deal with her whatever what you're saying is is this just keeps eroding eroding eroding this will just become more and more painful painful for you as every month and every year goes on so you have to do something about it if you've got kids involved it's going to be a lot harder if there's no kids involved it's a hell of a lot easier yeah that's right that's right and you know a lot of men you know ask me like what makes narcissistic abuse different from like normal relationship conflict and so you know normal conflict is is two people versus a problem but narcissistic abuse is one person versus you and the problem is that you noticed so in a normal marriage a fight is a bad chapter, right?

54:30You argue, you cool off. Somebody says, I was wrong. They apologized. You move on and the marriage gets a little stronger. Repair happens. But in a narcissistic pattern, repair never comes because being wrong is a threat that she can't tolerate. That's interesting, Phil. being wrong is something that a narcissistic person can't tolerate so what do they do so like if if he's in a relationship with her and she's wrong she'll never put her hands up and say apologize that was me i won't do it again it was kind of it'll get twisted round they're they're masters at at blame shifting and so uh yeah because just narcissists don't think they're wrong they don't think anything's wrong with them that's why a lot of them won't go see a psychiatrist or get a diagnosis because they think they're totally fine they don't need therapy they don't need a diagnosis but you see the pattern you know what you're dealing with behind closed doors and yeah being being wrong is a threat that narcissists cannot tolerate so So basically every conflict ends one of two ways that I've noticed.

55:47That is you apologizing for things you didn't do or you being punished until you do. Now, here's the test that I give men. I would say pull up your last 10 arguments with her and count who apologized. That's the apology audit. Now, 10 out of 10, including fights you didn't start, that's not conflict, mate. That's a system. That's a pattern. So, I mean, conflict, it can make a marriage stronger if you fight fair. That's normal relationship stuff. But a pattern makes a man smaller. And so if you learn the differences, you can't unsee those patterns. so that's what i would say uh when he's in that and being wrong is a threat to her and she can't tolerate that so that's what i would do yeah yeah yeah you mentioned the word earlier that i just picked up on the covert narcissist what do you mean by that yeah so i would say the majority of women with traits of narcissism or who are full-blown narcissists are covert narcissists.

57:08So she's going to be the one who doesn't look like we talked about a little bit ago, like the obvious narcissist. She's not going to have those obvious signs of being loud and arrogant and selfish and abusive. She's going to be more subtle. She's going to have that good public image. The neighbors, friends, family, they're all going to think she's wonderful. It's definitely more cunning because, yeah, they are harder to detect. But once you know those signs of a covert narcissist and recognize those patterns that we talked about, with the gaslighting, the things happening behind closed doors, the emotional manipulation.

58:03Those are all signs and you got to be aware of. And I have some podcast episodes and videos about covert narcissism if anybody else wants to kind of dive deeper on that specific topic. But yeah, it is definitely harder to detect. yeah are you at a point now phil where you can spot a a female narcissist a mile off oh man uh not not a mile off no because like i said they they're very good at at being fake and and um being being under the radar if you will uh and obviously i'm not a a licensed therapist I just help men, you know, see the patterns clearly. And so when they tell me these things, I'm like, yeah, you may be dealing with a narcissist on your hands.

58:57And then that's where we kind of work together on building an exit strategy. But yeah, it is hard to see from a mile away unless you see those obvious signs. but the more you're with that person if it's someone from school or someone from a club or a volunteer or someone who you're working with as time goes on and you're having this relationship with them you're starting to see different patterns like oh my god that could definitely be a narcissist uh sometimes men will get right back into another relationship with the same person because they're they're trauma bonded to her or they'll want reconciliation or because of the kids whatever it may be but hopefully they'll learn the signs that of in the next relationship of what to look for uh and how to spot those red flags because again she's probably going to be the the covert narc and so if that's you i would say you know look what's happening to you the man who you were before her is no longer there you you know you rehearse sentences before you say them you you know if you say something wrong like that it'll cost you three days of cold silence again you apologize to end fights that he didn't start his friends have quietly disappeared and here's the big one she has you know two personalities the the public one and the one at home so everyone else gets the charming generous woman and he gets the other one uh so when he finally speaks up nobody believes him because they have only ever met the performance and again dodge a uh shameless plug here but i put those 21 signs of a female narcissist in my free book if they want to get that from my website phillipsedugas.com yeah absolutely man it's not a shameless plug at all mate what you're doing what you're doing worldwide helping men is uh commendable because 99.9 percent of men won't have a clue about what we're speaking about and that's why we're putting it out there now so So massive respect to you for bringing to the attention of many men.

1:01:25And hopefully people who are listening to this will be able to get in contact with you. So how can people get in contact with you, Phil? Where can people find you? Yeah, yeah. So the best way to find me is you can follow me on Instagram. My handle is at Philip with two L's, C Dugas, D-U-G-A-S. Or I'm on Facebook and TikTok and YouTube as well. uh you can also go to my website uh philipcdugas.com where i have my my podcast my my books how to work with me um but yeah i'm on social media every day so you can find me there i love how you're doing all your different clips your 60 second clips four signs to spot a narcissist five signs five red flags for this it's really really good content and anyone listening out there if you're in a happy relationship massive respect by the way and if you're not in a a good relationship please reach out to phil send him a dm take a look at his content and uh i hope everyone's enjoyed this show but phil i really appreciate um you coming on i know you're on the other side of the pond um but i really do appreciate everything that you're doing and hopefully uh it will help a lot of men out there and yeah thanks again for for all you do dodge and for having me on the show.

1:02:46My pleasure, mate. Any blokes out there who are stuck in a relationship like this, you've got to make a move, lads. Hi, guys. I really hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. Can you do us a favor and leave us a review as it massively helps us grow the show? Cheers, guys.

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