Ask Dodge #3. Live Events & Festivals Are The Future

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1:21Our prescription glasses and sunglasses are expertly crafted and unexpectedly affordable. Stop by a nearby store or use our app to virtually try on frames and get personalized recommendations. Did we mention we offer eye exams and take vision insurance too? For everything you need to see, head to your nearest Warby Parker store or visit warbyparker.com today. That's warbyparker.com. Welcome to Ask Dodge. I'm an entrepreneur who's built five businesses over the last 28 years, exited two of them, and still running three today. On this show, you'll get straight talky and real business chat with no fluff.

1:57I think we're going to help thousands of people in business. I've got my good mate with me, Marky Masters, who's going to be the co-host of the show. Dodge, looking forward to this. If there's something you guys want us to answer, send your questions to askdodge at dodgewoodle.com. I hope you enjoy, everyone. Trust is built around being with others and the live experiences. Dodge Woodle. what is the thing digital and being online can never touch the live experience connection mate connection with other people who you do not know when you go out on live events and you meet people you've never met before and you have that instant bonding where you have switched your mind off from all the stresses and strains and pressures and everything else of life to go into a field and party and listen to music or play sport that cannot be beaten.

2:50And it comes down to live events can't be faked. AI can be faked. Lots of things can be fake in the world we're in at the moment. Live events, festivals, comedy nights, Where did it all start for you? Where did it all start for you then? The ability to bring people together. Started at a young age, mate. Started at a young age. but in adulthood it was the nightclub world you know I grew up in the pub world as you know why did you do that because that's the family trait well I was around when you're living in a two bed flat above a pub a busy boozer in London on River Thames and a nightclub next door to you you're seeing thousands of people come into your home essentially and they're either boozed they're either funny they're either not funny things are going on there's characters in there there's naughty people there's things going on there's happy people there's people dancing there's music there's great vibes there's fights there's everything that goes on in a boozer is life and it brings a wonderful connection of people and I just love people at a young age and I was always around adults and we had a nightclub next door to my bedroom and I just started selling tickets to that nightclub on a Saturday night for the people who would come into dad's pub between 7 and 11 and at 11 o 'clock when they kick them all out to go to the nightclub, I would sell them Q-Jump tickets to the nightclub next door.

4:23And it started at a very young age and built up and built up and built up. And when I got into my, when I went to Ibiza for the first time at 17, the experience of being in nightclubs as a young kid with dormant, going into the nightclub at the age of 10, 11, 12, 13, and seeing all this, being protected by these wonderful people who are all friends today and grew up with, you're in that environment. You see what's going on. And then when I got into my teenage years, went to Ibiza, and you saw how Ibiza threw parties. I was like, oh, I want some of this. Because they created the experience. Nightclubs created a great experience, but the experience you had in Ibiza was the colour.

5:06the colour, the vibe, the music, the ambience, the feeling, the feeling of good music and people just dancing and having fun and chatting to anyone that moved. And I just brought that feeling home from me. I was like, right, I need to get into this nightclub world as a 18, 19, 20, 21. And it grew from there. And I first started throwing parties in nightclubs. I'll take the door money. Okay. The nightclub would take the bar money. and the first nightclub I ever got was I was at Loughborough Sports University doing a PE sports science degree and my mum as a young young kid always said pound a man and as a 10 year old it was a pound a man because I'd go to the nightclub manager next door and buy tickets off him for a quid I'd sell him for two quid I'd keep my pound, the manager would keep his pound and the people who'd buy the tickets off us would get cue jump into the clubs instead of cueing for a thousand people, they'd cue jump so everyone was a winner so I've always had that pound of man mentality in my head and then when I got into when I got into that sort of 18, 19, 20 year olds I went to the local nightclub and had a thousand people in there already on a Wednesday sports night at Loughborough and I went to the club and said I was about we make it they were charging two pounds to get in then and had a thousand students in there so they were about to charge three quid I keep a quid, you keep your two quid and I'll get another thousand people through the doors and that's where it all started so I walked in to a thousand pound cash straight away my second year of university, I ended up getting 2 ,000 people in there every single week.

6:35Okay. So I was coming out of two grand from that club at Loughborough. I had another club in Wandsworth called Liquid. Okay. And that was a grand a week on a Tuesday night. So at the end of the week, I was coming out of 3 ,000 pounds cash a week. As a second year in your second year and third year in your student life, it was like the jackpot. You know, we're talking here late 90s, 98, 99. you know and then I saw the opportunity of how much fun I was bringing to people's lives was you enjoying it as well? mate I was loving it I was in my 20s so imagine in your 20s you got 2000 students coming to your nightclub every single week in one club and then you scale that up to three clubs to six clubs to nine clubs to 12 clubs all around the UK no one knew what creating a brand was back then but we created a brand because it was at the dotcom boom we created a brand called popyourcherry.com and then another brand called Bubble Love and we had a website and no one knew what websites then.

7:32You know, I had a real geeky guy I knew who was into all the back end of websites and I was like, mate, how do I get photos? Because back then you just had the camera. So I have girls going around taking photos of people and we worked out this way that we could then upload those photos from the handheld cameras, upload those photos, take about, God knows how many hours, five, six hours to upload and then they would be up there for when everyone woke up in the morning. Nice. Which was, this was year 2000. Okay. Before Facebook and before any of that happened, we come up with the mindset of how can we bring people back to knowing what's going on next week or see photos of themselves.

8:11So this comes down to as well, if this is a business slanted question associated with all this and the experience of putting on events that people come to, what is it that made people come back vibe atmosphere and in our parties we had a high percentage of girls and it always helps more girls in the nightclub more blokes want to come into the nightclub more fun happening more good vibes more people just just just just the whole circle of people getting boozed having fun and forgetting all the pressures of daily life and then they'll come back next week because we'd have a we'd have a fancy dress theme on or we'd have a DJ on or we'd have a someone back then it was like one of the stars from Big Brother which they called influencers back then but no one knew they were influencers it was just like oh they were it was only four channels back then it was like Big Brother stars we'd get them they'd come out of the house they'd be our PA or you'd have sports stars or every week there was something going on.

9:17So we put on entertainment for them because they never had entertainment before. You know, we were the pioneers of the student nights. And for us to finish, for us to start and scale from your Loughborough and London one, then to scale it to 12 nightclubs every single week from Manchester, Birmingham, Leicester, Oxford, a couple in London, Portsmouth, Brighton, Bournemouth. Like to manage 12 nightclubs was all in the end of a mobile. Knowing that you're taking the dorm money and the clubs are taking the bar money, you had to be bang on the ball. Knowing you're travelling 30 ,000 miles and a car eats you and staying in hotels and collecting your money to bring back down to London.

9:59This was, as a 20-year-old, it was a dream come true, mate. And we did that for 10 years. So the principles were all the same then, aren't they? Like you said there, you just called a different name today. If you talk about that in terms of having influencers involved and how you build something and scale and if you're using social to kind of build, but then it was just about flyering and everything else that went with it to get attention. Flyering and postering. And speaking, I would speak to, I've spoken to hundreds of thousands of people on the streets. Because you've got, when they come out of the pubs back then, I don't know what age group listening to this, but people used to go out to the boozes at seven o 'clock, come out at 11 o 'clock and they go to a club till two or three.

10:33You've got that period before they go to the pubs, flying them on the streets and getting them hyped about it. But there might be competition and there might be two or three clubs opening that. You want everyone in your club. so when they come out half cut at 10.30 you've got a moment in time where you've placed yourself in a certain area of a city with a team of girls flyering wearing hot pants and tops and blokes flyering whatever it may be you've got like you've got like literally 20 seconds to change people's minds there might be a group of 12 people guys where are you going oh we're going to that and I come no no no come to this one I'll tell you what I'll jump the queue with you da da da da this is the reasons why and you get them in there they have such great time they keep coming back the following week the following week the following week and before you know it your club is Ramo'd shut down that was the model the festival yep is that what makes people come back year on year to that again is that the same thing when you said it's the vibe is that the reason i'm asking this is like business models and and what we make that makes people come back and realizing that the live experiences are so powerful they're so important especially in the world we're in today when more people are locking themselves at home and just doom scrolling yeah and stuck on a phone you've remember there's an age group at the moment the people who used to come to our parties with that 18 to 21 year old crowd for years and years and years because that was a student crowd a lot of these kids now have never been to a club before i love nightclubs i grew up in nightclubs i've been to thousands of nightclubs around the world i love nightclubs i love going into night clubs when they weren't open to find out could you go and cut the deal with the owner what does this club look like and you visualize when you're in there with no one in there and you're cutting the deal to take it, sign a contract for a year or two years.

12:10You're visualising it being packed up there. You're visualising all the things, how you dress the club and the queue and the VIP queue. The way you're talking is like you're talking like a real life Scarface. Mate, this is fantastic. Going into clubs. Because I've never spoken about this. You've brought back memories, these questions. Now this is something that I was so passionate about. We end up throwing parties in Ministry of Sound or Turnmills, all these big clubs. I remember They're turnmills. It's not there anymore. How many clubs we used to throw parties in London were iconic clubs. They're not there anymore.

12:45The whole industry is collapsing very, very quickly. There was 1 ,500 nightclubs in the UK. We're less than 300 right now. Because it's just not there. And cultures have changed. And music has changed. And I never wanted to be that person going, oh, the music is much better in my day. But it was. The house scene and the garage scene in the 90s. and yeah, the 90s and early 90s stuff was off the charts. We did a survey. We're talking about how times progress and everything else. So when we come back just after COVID, we ran a survey that asked, what is stopping you from going out to a business event?

13:30What's stopping you from going out? and it was nothing to do with money. It was nothing to do with the subject matter. It was all about time. It was the fact that people had time back. They could watch whatever they needed to or attended something on Zoom or online. So people realized that they didn't need to go out again because everything that was related to work and learning and networking, they can now do it. on screen. How do you look at that? Do you look at that as damaging? Do you look at that as from someone new, when you look at the event, like the events that you did growing up and now knowing that we don't have to go out, we can do everything that we need sitting in the office.

14:19How would you look at that? I think it's boring. How boring? Like, but you, but that's boring to me. I'm not saying I'm out every night and I'm not like that. I've listened. I love my home life. Don't get me wrong. but if there's an experience to go to and it's a proper experience you make the effort make the effort you might meet someone who might change your life you might meet someone who'll be a friend for life just because you've got your set friends doesn't mean if you end up chatting with someone you go oh my god I really like this bloke I really like this girl you end up they might become one of your best friends like that feeling of being at a live event as an adult now in a festival in a field is a lovely feeling having drinks sitting down on the benches there where there's dudes up and you get up and chatting where you from?

15:07I'm from Manchester where you from? I'm from down in Bourne oh hello do you know him? the feeling you get can't be beaten do you think we forgot that feeling though that we do get that it just means us to get up and open the door and walk through the door no because Covid has stopped all that people are used to staying at home and what's happened is people have become maybe more introvert people have got more anxiety about going out now in bigger crowds looking at putting it to a business perspective or somebody that wants to put on something that brings people together in a in a live environment what worked for you over the years beyond that experience was it about people knowing what the festival was this thing again of just constantly showing up i'm going to be here next year was it knowing that you already had the calendar planned is it all about the itinerary and how you plan that occasion when it comes to a business when it comes to a business head on with this what's helped you over the years to create something that works where people come together creating a brand creating brands I've created many brands over the years I love creating brands and you you have to protect your brand and you build your brand and your brand is your reputation your brand is what people talk about your brand business when you're not in the room whether it's your personal brand or your business brand you have to protect it with your life and businesses can come and go but brands can stay they really do but you know moving from that in my 20s in that nightclub world mark here then going into my 30s into creating a festival that was a big jump i didn't have a clue what i was doing mate i knew how to promote i knew hired djs but i didn't know about putting on a festival in a field where you've got to pay a lump up front to hire the land yeah Then you've got to pay all the contractors before they arrive because you've got no reputation in putting on festivals because if you want to go and pay them afterwards, you can't pay.

17:09They're not going to get paid. So the risk factor of the nightclub indoor world to the risk factor of going outdoors and the financial risks and the pressures at every single angle were completely different. Completely different. what where did you know when did you know it was working like by putting on a festival because it does happen from year one does it when do you know that it's like yeah I know this has got legs to it I knew I had legs to it really I broke the back of it after five years that's when I when I really knew we're coming to year 19 now you know like the first year of not having any staff trying to put on a festival with just you and your wife and then getting one member of staff in like three months or four.

17:58I couldn't breathe. There was so much to do. I didn't know what I was letting myself in for. I didn't know the scalability and the size of what it would take to do something like this. I was just like, yeah, of course I did. We'll smash it. We'll go for it. And then on top of that, you're risking your family house because you've remortgaged the family house on top of that. Then you're getting married three weeks after the first festival. I haven't spoken about this either. and then you're doing a personal guarantee the following year for a 10-year contract, a personal guarantee that if within that 10 years it didn't work, you've got to go and pay the venue 10 years up front.

18:36Oh, wow. On top of everything. So when I look back, Marky, I just think, ballsy, crazy, what were you thinking? Taking that a step even more raw. Yeah. How did COVID affect everything? Well, COVID was year 13. But before we get to COVID, you mentioned year five. That's when I really knew that we created a sport and music festival. That was the time I was like, wow, there's something here. But year one even, to get 96 rugby play and sevens teams turn up and 12 netball teams turn up, I was like, wow, I wasn't expecting this. I thought we might get 24 teams. So year five was the point when it was like, I really felt like I broke the back of this, when it was a proper sport and music festival and you could sense the love in the field, everyone camping, the sponsorship was working, the bars were working.

19:35Because you don't know how much people are going to spend on the bars. You don't know how much sponsorship is going to come in. You don't know how many people are going to camp or going to do glamping or going to stay in hotels in town. They stay in hotels in town, you're not getting that money, that revenue. If they're camping in glamping and they're staying on site, they're there for the weekend um but yeah that was year five and there's there's many stories and there's many stories which i'm sure we'll come on to later down the line on on this new on this new show mark regarding the festival because within that doesn't matter what you do there will be court cases there were court cases there were there were times where you are taking serious gambles you're thinking my god if this doesn't go we are out of our house oh geez did Did you question that by thinking your own?

20:21No. No, but my wife did. Okay. My fiancé at the time. What was the persistence to say, like, I've got this? Because that's a big level of trust to say, all right, I'll let you carry on with this when there's obviously so much riding on it. What was the thing that kept you going by knowing? was that your own kind of self-belief by knowing that this, no, it can, it will work. I was like a dog with a slipper, mate. Like I had to make it work. When your back's against the wall and you don't have a plan B, you have to make it work. I never had a plan B. You have to make it work. So whatever comes in front of you is an obstacle and you're a problem solver.

21:03You have to do whatever you possibly can do to get the right team around you, to the right people around you, to the right contractors from the marquee coming, to the showers, to the toilets, to the fencing, to the security, to the police, to the fire, to bringing doctors and nurses on site and having a mini hospital there. There's so much. There is so much to do when putting on a festival. Like, that would be an interesting episode in itself, Mark. Do people need to know what the end of a cliff looks like? If you're saying, like, I had to kind of, there's a 10-year guarantee, and that's the thing that motivates you, because if this doesn't go well, there's still an invoice that's got to be paid.

21:44Yeah. Would I do it today? No. When I did it in my early 30s, yeah, I did it. And I was really ballsy back then.

22:00But it's different today. I'm still really ballsy today, but it's different because you had everything on the line then. and you are trying to build something for your, to have a better life for you and your family, to be able to put your kid in private school, to be able to go into the nice holidays and do those things that we like. We're not into cars, not into watches and standing behind planes and all the stuff I keep seeing the kids, people doing at the moment. We're not into any of that, mate. I just love good food, good mates, good wine, nice drinks, nice holidays. That's our thing. So it would have been a different pressure today, but there are still big pressures today.

22:43What's the biggest one today? Not losing. If there was another pandemic? Well, if there was another pandemic? Well, there might be. I'll deal with it. I have to deal with it. It's out of my control. So if anything's out of my control, there's nothing I can do so I don't get emotionally attached to it. Coming back to then we're making something for people that are trying to build something, all the importance of just the live moments that we spend together with other people. have there been conversations that or connections that you've built in a life space that have changed your life that could have never have happened if it was living on a telephone that the events that you've been a part of where people have been a part of as well if they've changed the work that you do because you've had a really good conversation with somebody all the time all the time if you go to a live event if I go to a sporting dinner in London, Dorchester, Black Tie, da-da-da.

23:41I don't normally go to any of these kinds of things. Every time I go and make the effort to do one, you'll meet one or two people that will change your life. But you have to be curious. Isn't it? And that's the whole thing. Because if you're not curious, you won't know who they are, what they do, da-da-da, and take an interest in someone, asking them a question, who, how, why, what do you do? Oh, do you know him? I know him from years ago. Oh, that's the connection. Give us your mobile number. here's my number never be afraid to ask someone get a whatsapp bam that night great to meet you tonight and just stay in contact and all of a sudden things happen magic happens isn't it that the moments that we spend with other people that these are the doors that open because this is something that we could never do because it's easier to stay at home or the zooms that we have but that being in front of somebody is where the opportunity is and I guess that's the way that you've always behaved what this is i'd like to pick up on as well that this this the small differences that the small sizes that can make a big difference like the things that you've done to the festival or what you've done over the years sometimes we always look at the big changes that have been made but i guess it's the small alliterations and changes that you make that do have a big impact i'd kind of like to pick up on that and just in terms of help for somebody else that wants to start something or to be more visible outdoors to even create something that brings people together what are the small steps or the small things that are actually really important that you would share with somebody else for me 100 is speaking to walking around that festival site for three days and being present and speak to everyone that moves you can't speak to everyone there's 30 ,000 people and there are 400 teams and, you know, big numbers.

25:36But people see you walking around as the festival owner. Give everyone time. Give everyone time and chat because they want to chat to you. At the end of the day, they're paying you to come into your festival. But every time I chat to people, everyone's like, thank you so much for putting this on for us. It's the most beautiful feeling. Now you've actually asked this question. I haven't spoken about it. But that feeling is the most extraordinary, exciting, humbling feeling you could possibly have. People thanking you for putting on the festival, but they're paying you anywhere from£100 to£500 to be at that festival.

26:15You've answered. This is the thing that I keep on going through my head at the moment. Can I? Yeah, go for it. You've just answered something. Go for it. So we have an event, a business event, that brings people together and you just highlighted something there where it can be done and this thing that I keep on going through my head at the moment is can you scale intimacy by this people feeling a part of something and they're being acknowledged and you're sharing that just by being there and I know that okay you're getting your steps up but you have to be there to at least to acknowledge someone.

26:52Do you know what I mean? And I know that the bigger something becomes, it's like balls to this. I've got my little nice little yurt sitting over there and I do that and I get the money coming in and I can see the little CCTV and all the people coming in through the gate. But the way that it can only work is by people seeing that you're present. Yeah, and chatting to you. You've got to remember people have travelled from four corners of the UK to come to your festival or flown in from different countries, come to your festival, and they see you, you're the front of it, because like we were speaking before about the personal brand of putting yourself in front of your business, people want to know the face and the owner of the business.

27:32And that is the most simplest if you're listening out there and you are a business owner. If you can just make that one little tweak and don't have the fear of putting yourself out there, your life will change for the better. Do you use it as well when you walk around, like feedback? this is like the greatest litmus test of someone leaving a review best feedback ever isn't it weird isn't it everything we talk about is just the simple things isn't it absolutely but it's never about investing in more in this or getting this app that will do this so i'll tell you what walk around with a gopro on your head or these meta glasses where you can kind of video everyone sometimes it's just about acknowledging the simplicity of it all by knowing that is what can gauge the best feedback and as well, just showing an interest in something.

28:19Or no, not something, somebody. Somebody. Doesn't matter who it is, showing interest. Thank you for coming to the festival. I really appreciate you and I really appreciate you back. And if they come down, remember, people don't just come in ones and twos. People come in squads of, you know, we have 450 teams competing. People come in squads of 20, 30. Just to me, they're coming down. It's great. They want to know. They want to have a chat. They want to have a photo. They want to, whatever it is, this is your weekend that's their weekend that's their weekend they've saved up for all year to come and party and play sport and and listen to top djs and entertainment and dance on tables and be in fancy dress and do all the fun stuff that it's becoming less and less in in the country as we as we sit today but that that's when you that and what you just shared there then that becomes responsibility for people that are putting on events or if someone decides to step up and to deliver an event in whatever context, business or whatever, that the important thing was always about creating a really good time for somebody else, whether it's B2B, whether it is you're at a festival, whether it's music, whether it's sport.

29:29If you're organizing it, it's always about your responsibility to look after people to give them something that they cannot get elsewhere. I agree. And if you're doing a weekly event, you've got to make sure that the following week is even better than the week before. For us doing a, you know, we work 362 days a year to earn all our money on the turnover on that three days and then your profit on the last day. Name a business where you work 364 days to earn your money on the last day. That's risky. So any promoters out there putting on events, I've said it before, Marky, that it is a risky, risky business.

30:03And the best way I look at it and I have looked at all my life has gone, just break even and everything else is a bonus. Hey guys, we've been running this podcast now for five and a half years. We've had some most amazing business guests on here. Simon Squibb, Daniel Priestley, Barry Hearn. The list just goes on and on from billionaires to people who have built brands. If you want to come on the podcast and talk about your business and sit here with me in the studio and tell your story, go check out dodgewoodall.com forward slash guest and check out the three minute video. We've also left the link below as well.

30:35How do you look at it today? Because we're seeing as well, costs, catering, everything else that goes on with it and how it's kind of more of a sobering question but where you see where we see things are today compared to 10 years ago just in terms of costs and everything else but where you remain bullish or where you remain hopeful where you know where we all know that costs are escalating before you deliver deposits everything else may not even a guarantee that you will get a deposit sit back if something goes wrong. Where do you see the hope when things are quite delicate out there? Yeah, it's tough out there.

31:14It's tough because the costs of putting on live events have jumped up by 30 % plus. Do you know what I mean? So the marquee company, I'm just making numbers up here, just to keep it simple. The marquee company might be 100 grand. It's now 130 grand. A DJ, these are crazy numbers, but like, for example, Chasen Status, we paid 40 grand 35 grand for the following year they went out 250 grand okay like you are you are you can see why you know when you're putting on live events the cost of security you might have 150 security there and they were on 10 or an hour they're now on 17 18 quid an hour maybe or you or your minimum wage or people in the bar staff it was only I'm guessing now but it was only like 7 8 years ago 9 years ago 7 quid now now it's like£12.50.

32:03You know, you can't go, you can't, you can't keep, people can't keep rising their prices up, rising their prices. It's got to a point where people are like, I can't afford to go to that big three-day event in Ascot or whatever it may be because the cost of putting an event is rising and there are less people going out en masse. How do you protect that? For instance, costs are coming in and the only ways that you can address it is to make that cost for people more but on the other side that stops people going out are we getting to that point well that what that makes people stay even further and further away which is why the experience we have to that's why you gotta do an amazing experience but one thing i i say to younger promoters coming through is we've never dropped our standards at ballma sevens festival we've never dropped our standards.

32:58You cannot drop your standards. One year you can't go, oh, we're going to do that, we're not going to do that, we're going to scrimp on that, we're going to scrimp on that. You've got to keep your standards super high. And that's why we're 19 years still independently owned by myself and my wife. Where most festivals would have gone bust after three years. And then the big ones, Live Nations, AEGs or Superstruck, would have gone and buy them all up. So it's a very, very dangerous game to be in, but the risks are very high, but the rewards are super high as well. Here's the thing, here's a price that's never gone up.

33:26Ready for this? I was thinking about this the other day. Because now if you buy a drink, you know, you're paying£8,£9. Bloody hell, where are you going? Never mind. Cocktails. Okay. Cocktails are normally£10,£12 plus, aren't they? They were like£10,£12 ten years ago. Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point, in fact. Thank you very much, I've been up. Oh, here, yeah, yeah, here. Cocktails are bulletproof. But now you just... Because pints these days, I'm always... like it was only four or five years ago where people are like five for a pint are you joking people are looking around again seven quid and some boozers in london it's eight quid eight pound fifty it's like jeez but you're right cocktails are staying at your tens and twelves and fifteens and they have done for years they've kind of so maybe they were super expensive years ago yeah and they've just stuck next question yeah if i'm starting on i want to get my i have a business or i want to kind of move into this idea that you're talking about whether it would be a festival in the future or it would be just a gathering that brings people together we've talked about that there are costs involved and it is a lot more expensive today what would be well you just mentioned there about talking to young promoters or it may be that side festival music or just a business event that brings people together what would be your advice to get somebody up and running to say yeah this is a really good idea What would be the thing that you would give somebody that little fire in their belly to say, this can work?

34:56What if someone came to me and said, Dodge, what are your thoughts on this? Yeah, Dodge, I want to do maybe a business evening where I want to bring 20 people that are eating dinner together. I'm a bit worried because I know that the main is going to cost this and I have to pay for this space. But it might be something that could lead on to something else, like my own podcast. Or I may do a series of events around the country. what would be your what would be the optimistic dodge that would say I think this could work first thing I would say is know your numbers okay know your numbers again what's your break even I always work on what's your break even no one wants to lose money what is your break even if you're doing a dinner party for 20 people and it's 50 quid ahead and it come into a grand up for a grand that you're wanting to bring in it's only the cost of it is like 10 as well is your break even 10 people go for it Can you afford to lose that money if no one turns up?

35:50No, I can't. Well, think about it twice. Is it going into your savings? What's the date? What date are you picking? What day of the week is it? What time does it start? What time does it finish? You've got to get these things right. And these are things when I look at doing other festivals, I go, can I find the right date? Is it the right location in the country? What's the parking like? How many chimney pots are around the area that we can promote to? What's the access like to get into the festival and get out of the festival? You know, you start thinking about all of that and then you start going, right, okay, well, that ticks all the boxes, not all the boxes, that ticks eight of the ten boxes.

36:24We could work with this. There's an opportunity here. And then you do your homework on your competition. Do so much homework on your competition in that local area. Who are you competing against that weekend? What's going on? Is there an opportunity to create an event here? And you've got to have, when you create an event, you've got to have a bigger picture in mind. Where can I take this event to? this is what I do anyway I work where can I take this event to can it grow to be I know you said a 20 people sit down can it grow to you having 100 people in a room they're all paying 100 quid ahead can it get to that what have you got to do to get to that if you've got to think of the entertainment what's going to attract them there are they being pulled away from their work if it's a lunch thing on a between 1 and 2 if it goes on to 2.30 and the guest speaker's up there at 3 o 'clock people getting bouncy feet and itchy feet wanting to get out there but they're too polite to leave the room if that's the case would they come back again thinking oh it was good but it went on too long or you know all these things on events is something you really have to think about hard i'm think i'm finding an answer from talking to you about this as well that the biggest thing that comes from all this when it works rather than the income and the revenue that's from it is that you can make something that you have ownership of yes that nobody okay have people tried to neck idea for instance what you've done with a festival have you seen other people there's someone here who's kind of chipping in of course mate of course that's life we probably had about 10 12 festivals trying to copy what we're doing whether it's you know we call bournemouth sevens festival whether it's edinburgh sevens or whether it's leicester sevens or whether it's cardiff or they've been leads they've been dotted all around but there's none left you know and I think people may come to ours and go wow this is amazing we can do this so but it's a dangerous game they might lose half a bar they might have lost 250 grand 500 grand what's a bar?

38:22half a mil so the reality is if you're not a promoter and you want to go in big day one you've got to be very careful okay because your outlay you're thinking oh yeah you put it on a field I think I might they might spend 50 grand that 50 grand going to 250 and all of a sudden they're like oh not many people have signed up well not many people are coming you either see that as a huge loss that year and you take it on the chin and go again if you've got deep pockets or you get someone on board who's got deeper pockets or you have to cut your losses and go Jesus Christ you jumped into that with two feet too quickly and I've seen it everywhere whether it's music festivals and I've seen it with sport and music that have been popping up like a sevens festival you know so but that thing around And I've helped these people as well.

39:09If they call, I just said, just be aware, because that's not competition to me. You know, we're last bank holiday in May. We've been around 19 years. It's not competition, but I don't want to see other promoters lose money. They might be like eight weeks after us. There's no competition there at all, but they asked me a question. I'm going to give them a straight answer. I said, do you know what you're letting yourself in for? You know, you've just left your job. Have you ever taken a gamble before? Have you ever put on events before? No, I want to work it all out. Be careful. And this is my advice.

39:35You can ask me, here's my number. but you can ask me as many questions you want. I want to see people succeed. I want to see more events. I want to see more festivals. I want to see more places where people can go and meet new people and they might become friends for life. Because that feeling of being the person who has created something where people have met at our festival and got married and had kids, there's loads of them, loads of people. Do you find it as well really empowering? Very, very, Mark. Like I'm an events man through and through from the age of 10, from the selling clubs tickets day to 10 to where I am now.

40:09For me, the power of events is there's nothing better. If you work hard enough at something that piques your interest that you know that can work, which is this thing of ownership, that this must be the most powerful thing in the world that doesn't have to be turning over so much that we're kind of then riding off into the sunset. But we've made something that wasn't there before. Yeah. from scratch. You think that's what entrepreneurship though. Entrepreneurship is, you've got to be the maddest people. You come up with an idea chatting to a mate or in the back of a fag packet or you're laying there one night, you come up with an idea, all of a sudden you've got the domain name.

40:47All of a sudden you've got the social handles. All of a sudden you're on this journey of wanting to build something and build a brand. And all of a sudden you're then risking the money that's in your bank every month you're putting down. Then the next step is, is this going to work? The excitement's gone. Is this going to work? Oh my God, I've got to start selling stuff now. you might be year three and you might be 300 grand in or 250 grand in by year three again this has to work where's the point when you stop that's my question to you when is the point so I know when the point to stop when I see people because what happens ego gets in the way yeah and ego gets in the way if we're talking about live events and festivals there are promoters out there whose egos have become very swollen okay because they are a music festival or a music event and the more the bigger DJs they book I think the the ego gets to their head their reputation that people around them get oh my god such and such that promoter he's only booked that DJ that DJ that DJ I've never got caught up in that yeah because it's not my bag but there are promoters out there who get a buzz of booking bigger DJs but it means they're paying more and more money that means they're under more pressure for their event to break even because they need more people coming through the doors buying tickets but what happens after year one they might have lost a hundred grand year two they won't tell anyone they lost a hundred grand because their reputation is about oh they put on an event there wasn't that many people year one but they're big DJs next year they've got to make they've got to have bigger DJs and more costs that means there's more break even so when it doesn't work or when things are starting to get wobbly is where complacency sets in, as in you rest on your laurels a bit too much.

42:38You said there, we've always set our standards pretty high. Even now we're coming up to three decades of a festival. The reason we're still here is that we've kind of kept the way that we work really high, but the reason that things do start to falter for people is when they do rest on their laurels a little bit and there's an expectation that people will turn up and we're seeing now that people aren't. It's easy to say no or there's something else out there. There's this weird thing, Marky. When you book a DJ, I don't know, chasing status or whoever it may be you're booking, the promoter books that DJ.

43:23There's this weird thing that people who go to that event think the promoter is something special. Okay. But they're not. All they're doing is banging an email to the agent going, oh, I'd really like to book. And they go, okay, well, make us an offer. And they go, well, that's 50 grand for an hour. And they go, no, no, I want 70 grand. They go, okay, meet you halfway. I'll give you 60 grand. That's all it is.

43:43I think people think there's some special magic in getting people to DJ at your event. If you're offering the money, the agent and the manager go, yeah, I'll have some of that. Boom, there's 60 grand for an hour or 30 grand for an hour. And that kind of, there's a rule. I'm trying to explain there's a real grey area there that is very dangerous for young promoters to be booking these big name acts for their personal reputation but deep down they're losing money on their event and that's that's so dangerous mate it's so so dangerous and I've seen it for many many years so dangerous that people promoters can get themselves into a lot of financial difficulty and then what happens is they end up borrowing money from friends and family on a gamble that they've got hit 3 ,000 people to break even.

44:31They only get 1 ,500 people in, so they've lost 100 Gs. And next year, they go again. They might lose another 100 grand because the costs have gone up because you need more. Police are on you. They need a bit more security or you need more fencing there and health and safety are there. And there's another bill to pay there, another bill to pay there. And you're paying more bills for DJs and acts. It's a real dangerous game if you don't get the balance right. I'm saying as well, as we're coming to the end here, is that from talking to you that delivering, putting on an event, takes so much work, thinking, logistics, people, everything that goes into it.

45:07But the reward is all about creating something that people feel a part of and included where you can see the smile on somebody's face, which they would not get if it was just them in isolation behind the screen. or not choosing to go out and open a door and that's why events are so key to people's mind health events are so key for people's mind health to get people out and if you're thinking out there and you've got an event local wherever you are in the country just go and get a ticket you and your mates you won't regret it just go and get a ticket now and plan and look forward to it with you and your pals so the they will always be here won't they I personally think live events are the way forward because you're going to go full circle that people have had enough of social media fakeness that's going on.

45:57People are stepping away from the addiction or people are addicted to their phones. People are addicted to doom scrolling. So my advice to people out there, try to become a creator rather than a consumer. Okay. And if you're a creator, it's so much more fun creating stuff for people to consume than it is there you just sit in the consumer and just wasting hours of your day and going, I've been doing this since nine o 'clock times now. It's half eleven. Jesus Christ, what have I been doing? Go and do the tasks you were meant to do. And then you come back and you end up getting comfy and you're flicking on your phone again.

46:32And before you know, you've done eight or ten hours on the phone. Who will be there when you need them the most? And when people will step into that space and they can look around and think, oh, blimey. There were good people here. There were lots of people here that I spoke to and was a part of. But that same feeling of selling over a million tickets to our events over the years, our own events, that feeling of bringing people together and putting smiles on faces cannot be beaten anywhere. One last question. Can I ask one final question? What would be the words of advice from the Dodge now to the dodge that was about to start the very first festival all those years ago.

47:21I'd be like, go for it, son. Go for it. Literally go for it, but you're going to have to become obsessed. You're going to have to become relentless. You're going to do 18 hour days, seven days a week, five years minimum, six years until you break the back of something. So you get into a position where you can go, breathe and don't forget if you have a question send it through to ask dodge