ASK DODGE #6: How to Know When Your Business Is Actually Working

0:00The moment when something is working is when you know it is bigger than you. Welcome to the show, listeners. Today, Dodge and I are going to look at when we're baking the things and our work that starts to grow, where we start to realise it wasn't all about you. May I ask you a question, Dodge Woodall? Go for it, mate. I don't know what questions are coming out of here. You and me with your arty shots. what's a sign that you know what's a sign when you know that something that you're working on is becoming bigger than you well i think everything becomes bigger than you but go back to where you start started like for instance with the podcast was an idea i'm going to do this and i'm gonna be resourceful or festival or i know you'd be fleur and you the time that you spent at the beginning when when do you know it start when do you know it's not just me anymore this when does that when does that moment start to happen i guess i guess when you start employing when you start employing people because people always talk about entrepreneurship is a one-man ban.

1:23It's bullshit. It's not true. All right, potty mouth. Sorry, I went ball and then I pulled myself back there, didn't I? It's just not true, mate. You need to build a team of people to take on the journey. But by building that team, you take the risk. You take the financial risk, but you can get the rewards as well. But actually growing something with other people around you is a beautiful feeling. And giving people autonomy and giving them the freedom to be creative. that's what I love Mark here like whatever world we've been in whatever industry whether it's entertainment whether it's podcasting media live events festivals tech it's it's been having the ability to be super creative every single day and having the wonderful thing of being able to bring people on board with you and give them the freedom to be creative every single day yeah and And I guess I understand that's a big thing from your side as well, is giving people that responsibility.

2:21Like, I know you put time and effort to make this work. Now, rather than being me, we can make this work. And are there things that you've had to kind of leave? When you know something's worked, what are the things that you hand over to other people, for instance? We always look to employ someone to do the stuff that you can't do or don't want to do. What aren't you good at? Loads of things, mate. There it is. Loads of things, mate. I know I'm good at and I know I'm not good at like

2:53formalities, emails, pulling things together operationally. That's not my bag. Being creative and employing people and seeing the best in people and getting the best out of people and motivating. And they're my strengths. Opening doors, contacts, they're my strengths. but when you employ people and then they are taking your business to another level you know you've employed the right person I just want to employ people who I genuinely really like who I'd want to go and have a beer with I'm not saying I go and have a beer with all my stuff all the time but everyone I employ I just like people who are like sponges who've got the right attitude and are willing to learn and I'm willing to learn of them I want to learn I enjoy learning more as an adult than I did as a kid where does it get where does it get to a point where you let people help shape it does that does that come from trust is that is that just time someone's in the job or when you kind of knowing that look we're all we're making something here this is starting to build momentum you have to let go marky like there's a big thing out there like not a lot of entrepreneurs and business owners ever do i've been very good at one of my students been very good at letting go letting go of having power of your business and the power of making that big decision the let it go you know if you've got someone who you really trust and respect and like and know they've got your best interests at heart give them that responsibility give them your contacts and when someone comes into your business and they certainly have done over the years people have my contacts I'm not like well I'm going to keep all these top contacts because you don't need them because if you have these contacts they might end up snapping you up and and and poaching you and I'm very open with the whole lot and it's a beautiful feeling of letting go i guess and as well the team develop skill sets that they probably didn't know that they have when like other examples from your side is that that thing of like the this starts to become a team around it and you're seeing other people develop can you share more around that that's a lovely feeling seeing people develop seeing people pushing boundaries because if you work for an entrepreneur you are going to be juggling marketing you're going to be juggling sales you'll be talking about brand you are going to be cutting deals.

5:05You are going to be trying to get the best deal for your company. You know, all these skills that you will be learning along the way will make you a better human being and an entrepreneur within your own right whenever you leave that company, whether you leave that company and go and work for another company. After working here, working by my side for a year or two years or three years or four years, you're going to go into other companies and you might be 23 years old. You're going to know a lot more and be a lot more employable than most of the 30 40 year olds may be sitting in that company you know so anyone out there who's thinking about setting up their own business i would i was highly recommending going work with an entrepreneur for a year six months a year see we can learn off them because it's a different way of thinking have you opened up and let people shape what happens for instance with the festival like like the input that people put in how was that great question mate yeah it's a really really thoughtful question it's that there when we're talking about the festival they've got people in in my mind, who had been my managing directors from Early Doors, whether it's Sophie Christie, wonderful.

6:07She was with me for, I think, eight years, I think. And then Craig Mathey, who was with me for Eleven. Wonderful managing director. He was one, yeah, unreal. And they both were. And then Paul Ashurst. And, you know, Paul come on board as a 21-year-old and Craig come on board as a young lad on 14 grand and they've worked all the way up to big salaries. And, you know, I just believe in people and I don't care what age you are, Mark. if you're good enough, you've got the right attitude, you'll become a director in two years. I don't care. I'm very proud of making, by promoting people through the company quickly if I know they've got that stardust.

6:47And going back to your point there, every single one of those managing directors for the festival business has all played a huge part to where we are today. They've been rewarded handsomely as well. they've been given the freedom to be the the the boss because I don't go into the office data I don't like office environment I'm happy at home in the kitchen and at home working off WhatsApp and making calls and I come in to motivate and help and give people their self-belief but let them run your company and once you let go they feel like they're in total control to make decisions and let them make the decisions how does it get to that point going two steps back how does it start to get to that step is it because you know you have the it's the seed of an idea that you know it can work and branch out or is who is it like or is it somebody's belief that they know it can work if someone's starting up is it all because of they know that there is a space for it in the marketplace something that isn't served where where does it all start like for you for instance for the festival where does it all start is it because you know i can i know this can work well i just i saw a gap in the market there was a gap in the market but again you like it i keep banging the drum on this you've got to do your homework more than anyone to find out what the competition is how much they're charging what does it look like what dates it's on and if there is a gap in the market like i identified in 2008 to create a sport and music festival that was an opportunity for me but everyone around me is going you're mad that won't work why would you make sport and music what all we know in the uk and around the world is just music festivals well i'll give it a go and see what happens um and then you create niches and then you work out where your audience are you know when you are targeting sports teams you know that you can target all these teams via the power of social media to get to the team captains once you've got the team captains and you're you're you're then they're organizing their interseason tour to come down from Edinburgh or Cardiff or wherever it may be or flying in from Dublin or different countries, they're coming with a squad of 20, 30 people.

9:00You know, all of a sudden you're bringing, if you go to a music festival, no one goes and buys 20 tickets for your mates. You might buy two or fours. You know, so then we start seeing bulk people coming down and then we say, well, okay, well, they're playing sport from 9am to 6pm and then this party crowd are coming in from like 3, 4 in the afternoon, coming to party till 1 o 'clock in the morning. So then you've got these two audiences and then you're trying to work out the flow of what's the flow around the festival site. How quickly can people get a beer? How quickly can people use the toilets?

9:29What are the toilets like? What's the CCTV like? Is everyone safe? Where are the security placed? There's a million things. This is a really good part now because this now starts to move on to you're talking about audience, the participants, the people that take part in the tournaments and everything that's happening. how do we when we look at the audience side how do we start to know this could also be related to making a podcast is that how do we know that people are people are coming on our side and joining in with it and participating rather than just being the bystander or someone just sees a post and it just rolls on where do you where do you start where where do you see that is it the fact where you're seeing someone physically in the space is the fact that people are commenting is it the fact you were...

10:16It's all. All of that you mention. All of that. Everything you mention is the comments. It's the feedback. It's people buying into your weekend. It's the return customers. You know, your return customers are key. We get the seriously high percentage of people keep returning. Keep returning and want to be coming back because they know we throw a good party. Beyond revenue, what do you put a lot? What do you put more effort into? Do you put more effort into one more than the other in terms of... beating what we did the year before. So I'll go around and see how I can prove, when I'm walking around, I'm going, how can I prove this year?

10:50How can I improve this year for the following year? So I take every year as it comes. You can never, in business, you can never sit on your hand and feel like you've made it. I certainly don't. I go fresh again, like you haven't made it next year. What we've got to do again is if we haven't made it. As long as our reputation is super high and we've got a wonderful reputation across everywhere, that's where my main focus is are people leaving there having a really good taste in their mouth after the weekend is that then that rubs off on everybody else who's a part then of the internal team but you have to lead it by saying I don't want us to kind of accept this this is what it is because we need to work even not even harder but we just need to push that needle to kind of take it to a place where not just I want to take it but you can shape this.

11:41You want everyone to feel who works on that phone. We have a thousand people working on the weekend. You want them coming back going, I love that weekend working there. I work behind the bars or work on security or work in the ambulance room because of the injuries or wherever you are. Everyone feels part of this electric atmosphere that we create there that people want it to be a really successful festival. I'm going around high-fiving the bar stuff. Good luck this weekend because they're under serious pressure. They don't know who I am. I don't know who I am, but go around everyone you meet who's working there good luck this weekend and everyone's got that vibe at the start of that weekend because it takes two weeks to build the site there's a vibe there of people working serious hours to create you know 67 acres of land into a festival a mini town and then on the weekend you've got you've got to have people with take their energies to a whole new level if they're putting in a shift from 9 in the morning to 1am over 2 or 3 days Do you need that if somebody is starting something do you need is that vision integral to what you need to build like did you always know that if i started from year one by year 10 i know it's going to have x amount of people that are supporting this or do you not know at the start no no no no you didn't know at the start i didn't know whether it was going to work or not i believe it was going to work because i thought there's a niche there's a gap in the market but you don't know your revenue streams you don't know your revenue incomes you're going from the nightclub world where you're taking door money there's one revenue stream you go into the festival world you've got door money for tickets you've got sponsorship you've got all the caterers paying you to be there you've got all the teams paying to be their team entries then you've got your upgrades of vip vvip camping and glamping um and then on the weekend when everyone's there it's about how much they spend on the bar okay so each year i was working out year one i didn't know year two year three year four then you start seeing the pattern okay people are spending that amount of money on the bar okay people are people are getting upgrades okay the campsite is going from 500 people up to 3 000 people okay the following year we had a glamping when glamping wasn't really a thing about eight nine years ago and this thing called glamping you paid a lot more money with a tent's already up there then you've got a nice big comfy bed and a side table and a plug for your phone and there's a there's a big vanity unit next to it where people are doing curling their hair and straightening the hair of the girls and you know do you start you start making do you stay no no no i'm 10 minute drive mate i want a comfy bed but there's a lot of staff who have stayed over you know my old man stayed over the last 18 years because he's in charge of the money when it was when it wasn't uh all tap and go again he had an amazing role over the years he's been he's been integral part of the festival where do you think the risk is like if someone's making something they know it's starting to grow where do you see the risk can be for people is it a fact that it grows too quickly is it a fact it goes further away from what their original intentions were say it could be a podcast you're doing and the podcast gets um it's got great listenership but it's going in a path that you never wanted it because you started it with a particular angle where do you see the risk going from that's what happens mate in business you look at all the big businesses you look at how Amazon started selling books or you can look at other big businesses that Peloton or whatever the different brands they never started out to doing what they do today you end up going on a business journey and by being curious you'll have a conversation with someone and say have you thought about doing that in year three oh god I haven't all of a sudden your business might completely change so you've got to be open to change a lot of people don't like change but you've got to be open to change you've got to be super curious you've got to be have the most amount have optimism you possibly can as an entrepreneur but things do change directions do change um but going back to your original question there was what pressures do then come on the pressures are that you might have a product that you're trying to sell and it might not sell like you thought it would yeah then you might have to pivot and go well what else can i sell i still want to do this but don't go for that shiny object syndrome where you think okay my mate's doing that over there i'm going to copy him and all of a sudden you put that one to bed and you're copying there and I've seen many people do that.

15:51But the biggest, when growing a business, the biggest thing can really take your business from that level to that level is employing the right people, your next employer, your next employee who's coming on board. That, for me, makes the biggest change. The hardest thing about business is employing too many people too quickly because your monthly overheads might go from three grand to 20 grand. Then you've got your office rents and then you've got your business rates on top of that before you know it you can come unstuck you just there's a fine balance of not having too many people and not having too little people you also highlight you just shared there about you need to be open and the ability to have conversations and to welcome input what does change look like for you to make something that can still be here in another five ten years what how does how has that changed whatever needs to be done whatever needs to be done where you've got to change direction whatever you have to do to make that decision make it quickly you know that's the beauty of being a lifestyle business where we're under 10 full-time staff I love lifestyle businesses by the way and I think they're the way forward anyone out there thinking you want to go and grow an empire it's very dangerous to go from that over 10 employers to 30 to 40 employees you could be in a real desert I call it the dark blue seas there where you don't really know where you're navigating.

17:18You're trying to break the back of something, but you then need more money coming in. You've got angel investors, then you've got venture capital investors coming in and they want every pound of blood out of you. Then you lose control, then you don't start enjoying it as much as you did and then you're growing too quickly because you've had all this money chucked in. The investors want their return quickly. You're in a whole dangerous game there. That's another world, which we can talk about another time. but I'm a big believer and have done for the last many decades of being a lifestyle business.

17:54What have been some of the biggest changes you've had to make over the years? Where have been those moments that you've had to kind of make these changes as you're going along? Yeah. I think the changes on this one is it didn't start out to be a business. It started out as I'm going to do a podcast because everyone was talking about go and do a podcast. so I set up a podcast called Eventful Entrepreneur, did that for two years, then we start up Eventful Lives. And then along the way, you're working it out going, oh my God, all of a sudden, if you start posting on Facebook, they're starting to pay you now.

18:25Well, we didn't have that when we started. TikTok, they're starting to pay you now. Wow, didn't have that. Spotify and Apple through sponsorship, they're starting to pay you. YouTube are paying you. So all of a sudden, you've gone from no revenue streams to maybe five or six or seven revenue streams. So you adapt very quickly and you can get excited very quickly as well. And everything that we've done with this podcast and the money that's come in, it's just pumped straight back in. Whether you've got a nicer studio, whether you've got a creative team next door, very small creative team, two or three people.

18:55People think we must have a team of 10, 12, 15, but it's not, you know. And you work it out as you go along and the journey is so much fun. And that's why we're proud now to, I don't know anyone worldwide who has a podcast with an umbrella podcast with three podcasts sitting underneath it with Eventful Lives, Founder and Ask Dodge. Again, no one's doing it, but we want to be the pioneers here to work it out, going, hold on a minute. Instead of having three separate podcasts, which would be three separate headaches of uploading on your YouTube channel and different users, we've just gone, you know what, we've done five and a half years now.

19:34Why don't we put it all under one and leverage our audience that some people really might like the founder one to be pure business some people really might like the Ask Dodge which is pure business and some people really like the Eventful Lives one where it's ex-police and SAS and whatever it may be criminal underworld sports stars etc etc so we feel like we're giving people options and some people might like the business stuff and that stuff some people might just like that and not the business stuff or vice versa so it's now at a point where you're going, right, okay where do you, what are the next steps for us?

20:17And when people approach you and want to sponsor the different podcasts you've got there okay, that's another revenue stream that comes in what else revenue streams have come in? Okay, it's revenue streams where you, we're in the middle of writing a book at the moment, all of a sudden people might want to look at your book and enjoy reading your book so, but I didn't know all this I see, as I'm trying to piece this together that we're talking about here is that we're talking about this show of how you can build something that is bigger than yourself and what i'm starting to interpret is well we don't know but it is all about everything you're talking about here is like i have a map and i'm gonna make the roads up as i go along whereas the the kind that that that that that idea of that journey you just need to be on and embrace that journey and these different kind of twists and turns that come with it because otherwise it becomes too rigid wouldn't it might if the i guess it if you started a podcast say right my goal will be a hundred thousand listeners or i want to make x amount from youtube then that's completely different from oh look there's an audience and the audience are giving their input so i can create these different shows that are there for different audiences or they can all join in is that the the ability to make something bigger than yourself is by actually not knowing where it's going to and also having different revenue streams any business owner out there don't just stick to one revenue stream you know we've got three companies so if one goes down you've got another one there's another one goes down you've got another one there and then within our one of the media companies we've got a podcast and we've got three three different podcasts under one i didn't expect that to happen it's just an idea you go well god we could add it to that what about people like when we're on the podcast people want to hear more business stuff well I don't just want to do business stuff on Eventful Lives why don't we do a separate one where it's just founders coming on where people just love the founder thing or like this sort of back and forward chat we're doing on Ask Dodge so it's about being open to change and it's about being constantly curious and pushing boundaries to see what else you can do to leverage what you've currently got.

22:30Hey guys, we've been running this podcast now for five and a half years. We've had some most amazing business guests on here. Simon Squibb, Daniel Priestley, Barry Hearn. The list just goes on and on from billionaires to people who have built brands. If you want to come on the podcast and talk about your business and sit here with me in the studio and tell your story, go check out dodgewoodall.com forward slash guest and check out the three minute video. We've also left the link below as well. What are your limits? for instance what much what are your limits like for instance if uh you then talked about limits are i can't i don't want to employ i've got no i no interest in buildings you know more people more kind of responsibilities imagine if there was another product that come from yeah where are your limits that are things that start to push you will be like this is starting to become uncomfortable now well if it ever got like that i would stop if anytime i don't enjoy what i do because I'm addicted to this, man.

23:26I'm addicted to business. This is my extreme sport. I'm addicted. I love everything about entrepreneurship and live events and festivals and media and podcasting. But I genuinely, genuinely get up and I love what I do. So there is joy out of all this, isn't there? There's serious joy. Serious joy. And I get more joy seeing the people who work alongside me, the creative team, loving what they're doing coming into work. We're only a small little team, but we're punching way above our weight worldwide in 187 countries in the top 0.5%. All this podcast globally and all this wonderful stuff that keeps coming in, but we certainly keep our feet firmly on the ground, Mark, because we don't know what could be pulled from underneath us.

24:10YouTube might go down one day. Well, there's a massive revenue stream that you lose. Facebook might come down. You might get blocked. You don't know what's coming, but I love it not knowing what's around the corner as well. It keeps you on your time. toes is that what people need to embrace more that ability to be nimble by knowing that you don't I mean you never know what's just around that you've got to protect yourself or you never know what's just as you said there is somebody like Spotify shuts down or something else is that the ability to keep going is this is that you know you need to be nimble and 100 % and that's the beauty of having your own business you can make decisions very quickly where the decisions like we've just made recently some big decisions with the route that we're going down with the whole podcast world what we're doing is that might take another podcaster who has been bought out by one of the big radio stations, that might take them two, three months to make that decision.

25:08But that's the difference of being solo and not being tied by anyone or making that decision that you want to sell your podcast and be under a big umbrella and be told what to do. But no one tells us what to do here. No one's ever told us what to do, ever. Not just in podcasting, in anything that we've done. So it gives a lot of freedom. And when you've got freedom, you can be so creative because if you come up with an idea, we could have the idea turned around in five hours, six hours, nine hours, change the branding, put it up, upload it, get people's feedback. People are really liking this, bam, we're off.

25:48So this theme, this theme today that we're talking about, the show around making something that does eventually that is that does become bigger than you so if somebody's listening they're on their own and they are seeing a return for the work that they put in when it comes by by listen that may be team or it may be audience there may be a bigger audience or knowing that there are more people that i know that are alongside them two parts to this the first one is the is the shift around mindset like it is is a lot of this around mindset like you could you can hunker down it's all going to be me i'm going to kind of look after this on my own and i can make my money and everything on by myself or is the mindset like that what you were saying there about being open i want to progress i want to look at new routes so mindset is is is probably one of the biggest keys to letting you progress and not being held back when Mindset is everything.

26:49Mindset is everything. Mindset, understanding your mind is everything. Understanding your subconscious mind, the bloke who speaks to you 30 ,000 to 40 ,000 times a day on your shoulder in your mind. If you understand that conversation is going on, you can make some brilliant decisions because you're in control of your emotions. But no one was ever taught your emotions at school. No one's ever taught about your subconscious mind. No one's ever really taught about using the mind, you know, to be creative. We'll be doing sponsored walking across hot coals before the end of the month. With a pint, hopefully.

27:19Friday afternoon. And to that person that is listening to this, that's like, no, this is working. I'm going to tap into you now, but your kind of advice and support for someone. If they are, there is the person that is making something and it is working and they can slowly see where a future could be. What would be your kind of words of support for someone where they can see that something does have a future. Lovely feeling. Lovely feeling. I call them breakthroughs, and I celebrate every breakthrough. What's been your biggest breakthrough? There's loads, mate. Loads. There's loads, and it happens, and I identify them.

27:56So I'm aware of that emotion I get when there's a breakthrough in a business or something just happened or we've had a phone call that's gone through or whatever it may be to enjoy a breakthrough. and as you're building a business, you'll get lots of breakthroughs. You'll get lots of no's. You'll get lots of frustrations. You'll get lots of, why am I doing this? You'll get lots of, will this bloody thing work? You'll be laying there at night going, am I just wasting my money? Am I wasting my time? But if you keep on going and you truly believe in it and you're banging out days and days and days and days and this goes into years, all of a sudden, it's like this, da-da, comes and gets you.

28:35Because if everyone had it easy, it wouldn't be as fun like you've got to go through such you've got to jump through so many hoops Mark to get to a point in business where you're like yes I've had a massive breakthrough I've broken the back of this and it might be the finances it might be after paying everyone you haven't paid yourself for three or four years and all of a sudden you can now start paying yourself because up until then it's just an idea but not many people can execute it because after two or three years, most people, a high percentage of people go, I'm out, don't like it. I've got an example for you.

29:13I've got one for you from your side that worked. This all does come down to intelligence, shall we say, market intelligence. So when you talk about breakthroughs and it is that when it was looking at, when COVID had happened, by looking, I'm going to create a learning platform when everyone and that thing that goes alongside that i'm making something that other people join in with that is giving me something i enjoy that we can all take from the well and that means that enables me to be open and nimble and see these little seams and i can ride these waves where we all become a part of it as well and that's an example of that of knowing that when everything was flipped on its head by looking at a space in the marketplace by looking by i'm going to create a learning platform for people.

30:03But that was totally against anything that I'm about. You know, creating an... I saw an opportunity in COVID when I saw 200 ,000 people leave the events industry because events were banned. You weren't allowed, they were illegal. So people were like, I've got bills to pay. I've got... I'm a dad, I'm a mum. What am I going to do? So people left the events industry and went and worked in a bank or went and worked in a state agency or went and worked as a builder, whatever, to bring money in. I was like, right, there's a big problem here. What can I solve? because everything that we do, you have to solve a problem.

30:34That's all entrepreneurship is solving a problem that's actually bugging you normally. Or I was solving a problem that I was thinking, well, how can I fast track people to get into this world called events, which is the most exciting industry in the world because you're meeting new people, you can travel the world, every day is different, you're being creative, you can be in operations, you can be looking after bands, you can be looking after DJs, music, whatever it may be, health and safety, lighting, sound. there are so many opportunities in the events industry and I was like right how can I get people fast tracked I was seeing these events degrees where people were paying£27 ,000 for a degree for doing a course it took three or four years, probably four years with the placement I was like well how can I create something online in the pandemic for people at home where I can bring in 40 of the world's leading industry experts to pre-record about what they do in the events industry and sell these courses for three, four grand a pop.

31:34And that was really hard. And the big thing for me was I didn't want exams. I've hated exams all my life. So we did it in a way that people could do this course with no exams and then get a diploma at the end. We had loads of governing bodies on board. And I didn't know whether that was going to work. You know, I didn't know, you know, do you sell the course for 500 quid? Do you sell it for a thousand pounds? We went in and sold them for£3 ,000 for level four and£4 ,000 for level five. But to break the back of this business model was bloody hard. Really, really hard because it was something completely new to me.

32:07You know, so luckily we built that business and we sold that business last year in December 2025. And what a journey that was. it comes down to being open and knowing that there are opportunities in so many different places i'm just looking at a way now to kind of start to round up to this show is that when we do start around about when you know that what you're doing is working you accept that it is never all about you you have to find those moments where you have to step away and recognize help and support is out there team members or even just a confident or friendships and people that are out there but by knowing that they can support and that's the reason i kind of wanted to highlight about with the learning platform is that there are other things already happening but you don't know and that's this element of the journey because you never know that the opportunities and the doors that open and the conversations start but it all comes from knowing that marketplace in that space as we've talked about before.

33:15The reason it worked was because of the vibe, but the reason it worked was because there was a space I saw within the market that was untapped that piqued my interest. And by having that curiosity around the central thing, isn't it interesting? Has everything always been built around that thing of bringing people together in whatever it is? Now you're listening to an audio or watching a video. But we had to go online, Marky. You think in the pandemic, what an opportunity to go from in your 20s, indoor venue, in your 30s outdoor festival and then a pandemic come along you're like well I need to go online you've got to adapt quickly you've got to think of what the culture is what the culture is going to change I knew what was happening something big was happening culture is changing how can we develop and build something that we're still bringing people together but actually speed people up that they could do this course in three months instead of three years but it's three grand instead of 27 grand and then all of a sudden you get them into the events industry via my contacts so all of a sudden you're getting people jobs you're creating a massive win-win again and you're breaking the back of a business model that's outdated of people going to uni doing an events degree some old boys on stage reading from a book written 30 years ago about something that happened 30 years ago that's what I do but times have changed we've got to be very very quick and nimble and we created something special and we had a lot of fun but it was bloody hard work because I had no one to go there was no oh if we follow that business model we can do that It was literally working all out, throwing everything against the wall to see what would stick.

34:43And then you'd have to spend a load of money on advertising on Facebook for this course. Then you do a load of money on Google pay-per-click. Then you're seeing what percentage come in and how many people buy. You're working all this out. I wouldn't be able to do that by myself. I employed good people around me. Ed Brown, who was, I think, he'd become managing director at 23 or 24. He led this. We had a wonderful team around of Grace and Niamh and everyone else who was working on Event Crowd at the time to get it to a point that we built it up into such a way that we could package it up and sell it.

35:20And it comes back to live events because I got invited to speak at this live event in East London at the EC, I don't know, what's that big bill, that big. Here we go. I can't remember the name. I can't remember the name. Anyway, I got up to speak, a guest speaker on there. And one of the guest speakers was the guy who ended up, his company ended up buying it. Okay. And we weren't speaking about it. We're speaking about the festival. Again, curiosity and opening doors and swapping numbers. All of a sudden, six months down the line, bam, it's been sold. This is a good way. I've come full circle now because I understand at the start of this, by building something that is bigger than you, all starts from the responsibility and the role that you serve for people.

35:59so that role that comes back to many many years ago i guess from your side of bringing people together and that manifests into so many different ways bringing people together to learn to be entertained to spend time with others and that's how it comes to a place where we need other people on board because all of us is better than one of us dodge agree mate it's all about team it's all about team that's where it comes from if you're a sportsman and you've played sport whatever level you've played it's all about team thank you so if you this has piqued your interest you want to ask Dodge or myself a question to kind of pick up on this theme of what we've talked about today make sure you send to askdodge at dodgewoodle.com