FOUNDER #11. £1M a Month OnlyFans Manager - Liam Turnbull

0:00Who is Liam Turnbull and what has been your biggest success in business so far? There's been a lot of success stories for us. I mean, retiring our parents was great. Hiring 100 staff was great. But for me, all of the time it circles back to people. We started with the OnlyFans platform. Our goal now, our mission is to be a one-stop shop for adult content creators. We turned over between 6 and 7 million in revenue. My God, are you joking me? So today you're looking at a million pound net profit roughly a month. Yep. That is unreal. You know, there have been cases where people will spend six figures on one particular video.

0:35It's absolutely wild. What, a hundred grand on one video? Yeah, I mean, we had one account do 200 grand in a day before, which shows you the power of the platform. This could just be another addiction. Whether it's drink, drugs, food, sex. We've just put in their bank details online going, boom, can you show me that? Hey people, I'm Dodge, host of The Founder Show. I've been an entrepreneur all my life. And over the last three decades, I've founded five businesses in the world of media, festivals, sport, tech, live events, and I've been lucky enough to have sold two of them. I promise this isn't your normal, boring, fluffy business podcast.

1:10This is real and raw with a lot of emotion. I'll delve deep into the guests' minds on the risks and rollercoaster journey of being an entrepreneur. I hope you enjoy. Liam, welcome to the show. Appreciate being here, man. Yeah, very much looking forward to it. Who is Liam Turnbull and what has been your biggest success in business so far? the biggest success is is always a tough question because there are so many different angles in which you can appreciate your own journey whether it be the materialistic fun that you've had whether it be what you've done for you and your family or the people around you or just that whole mission of like you know can we be the best at what we do which you think is fundamentally the fuel for a lot of people right so um there's been a lot of success stories for us i mean retiring our parents was great hiring 100 staff was great but for me all of the time it circles back to people in some degree you know it's always to do with the people side of it so tell me what your business is the long and short of it is uh all in one adult economy but what that actually means is that we started with the only fans platform you know that's the bread and butter of how we grew our business uh we felt that there was a market for a service to be provided to creators uh to essentially give them more reach help them monetize their their audience so off the bat you know we kind of i I suppose we made it up as we went along and slowly started to work out what actually added value to the creators.

2:32But over time, you know, that became saturated. And so we tried to diversify. We offered financial and legal services to go with that. And our goal now, our mission is to be a one-stop shop for adult content creators. So what year did this come about for you? 2021. Okay. So it's just in the middle of the pandemic. Tell me what you were doing just before you had this idea. Yeah, Cam and I met at McDonald's. Cam? Cam's my business partner. Okay. So me and Cam, we met initially at McDonald's. We both worked there, yeah, which was a pretty cool place to meet. It's a cool story, isn't it? It's a cool place to start the story.

3:04So we met at McDonald's. Fast forward a couple of years, we didn't really touch base again at that point. I was watching him on YouTube, just gym videos, motivation, that kind of thing. And I started to get into the gym myself. Ended up going down a powerlifting career, broke a number of award records. Did pretty well as an online coach. And Cam actually was manufacturing this liquid chalk product, you know, the stuff that gymnasts use and that kind of thing. He was manufacturing that in China and bringing it over to the UK, attempting to distribute to supplement stores, gyms around the UK. And at this point, I had good reach.

3:34I was a world record holder in the squat. I had a number of impressive... What were you squatting? 300 at 19, 82 kilo. 300 kg? 300 kg, yeah. Jesus. Full squat? Full squat. That's the grass. So that was an all-time world record. 300 kg? Yeah. That's a lift. Yeah. Yeah. I ended up doing a bit more than that, but I wasn't a teenager anymore. So nobody gave it. So how old are you in your squadron? I was 19 at that. My God. Okay. Yeah. So at that point, I had a little bit of leverage, right? Because people knew me in the fitness space. So Cam is also from the town that I grew up in. So he kind of looked to me as someone who could sponsor, who could help him with his GM journey.

4:13And so we partnered up and we traveled around the UK together. we would go down to competitions or events that I would be appearing at or lifting at or coaching at and on the way we'd stop and we'd work together to try and see how many bottles of chocolate we could sell on the way down on the way back and and it was great you know we built a bond over that and we started to as guys do on the road think about different ways that we could make money I was doing relatively well Cal was just finding his feet but we both wanted more so we started to think about you know what else is there out there for us where else can we make money and we saw the opportunity in adult you know the fact that there is this stereotype around creators not being treated too well there is of course this whole ideology about online creators being pimped out and we thought look there is absolutely a market here to bring to the market a professional respectable corporate service where people are safe they don't have to second guess what they're up to they don't have to worry about you know how they've been taken advantage of and so we set up a service early on in 2021 and it basically just linearly grew month by month from there it was quite an organic start.

5:11What is OnlyFans? It's a platform where, I mean, nowadays they try and pretend that they're a social media, but fundamentally it's an adult content platform. So it's a platform where creators will distribute content through either a feed that people would subscribe to or the opportunity to purchase in DMs. And when you saw OnlyFans sort of really take off, what was your angle to think, you know what, there's an opportunity here? Well, we were the first agency that I know of. There probably wasn't, there probably was other agencies doing it of course they were and pretend to be a complete first mover but we weren't aware of anybody doing it so for us we felt like we were innovating a market because the current way that guys made money in the industry through creators was with webcam but we looked at that and we were like well one of two things is going to happen either you have to make them work when they don't want to which is never going to win well or you have to accept that they don't want to work and you don't make any money either way you lose so we looked at it as like that's not a route we want to go down so we saw only fans as a way to add loads of value do all the work but without having to put pressure on the girls, without having to make them feel like they must work or any of these hostile agendas that don't end well.

6:16So for us, it made sense, right? And I suppose the honesty of it is we had no fucking clear what we were doing. As anybody does with the new industry, we were totally just winging it. That's a gift, by the way. That's a superpower, not knowing what you're doing in business. We all don't know what we're doing. Everyone's winging it, but we're all still winging it now. It's true. But there's a view out there that people have got it all sorted. No one's got it sorted. Everyone's winging it. Nobody has. So I want to know that bit there. Why did you all of a sudden think OnlyFans, though? What was the connection?

6:42Did you have someone within OnlyFans? Did you know the owner, Tim, at that point? I do know Tim, yeah. But at that point, no. I wasn't aware who Tim was. I'd never really even seen the platform. I was aware of it, of course, but I'd never seen it. And so for us, it was just something that I suppose we looked around at where we thought. Cam's very creative, right? Let me make that clear from the get-go so that you understand how we get onto these wild paths. because Cam is the kind of guy that will, especially when driving, just say, what about this? And it's like, how did you even get to that?

7:12And I don't still comprehend how he gets to the ideas that he does, but one of the ideas he happened to have was OnlyFans, and we never looked back from that. It was interesting at first. We had to think about it twice, and we had to think about what our parents think and all of the other caveats. What did your parents think when you said, oh, mum, dad, by the way, I'm getting involved with OnlyFans? I think it's a presentation thing. We put it on very well. You know, we explained the positive narrative. We explained the fact that it was done, you know, the right way. And fortunately, we both have open-minded parents.

7:42They both could see that we were genuine guys who are hardworking and looking for, you know, their way in the world to leave a dent in the universe. I think they could fundamentally see that it was with good intention that we wanted to do that and that our dreams were pure, right? You know, so I think that was why it went down quite well. What sort of money at a peak were you earning within this business? Fortunately, peak was only a couple months ago. The summer is always a drought because everybody is distracted. You know, our team are, creators are, customers are. So the summer is always difficult.

8:12But we actually recorded in May of this year. We turned over, it's difficult to say exactly without pulling it up, but between six and seven million in revenue. A month? In May, yeah. My God. So it's exceptional. Are you joking me? No, I'm serious. Of course, that's the gross revenue. Million pound gross revenue a month at peak. Yeah. And it's been relatively - No, that's dollars. It's dollars. So are we looking, five mil? Yeah, ballpark. Five mil sterling. It's difficult to say what we make because without breaking it down on our full financial accounts, there are lots of inconsistencies within that because certain creators have got certain deals.

8:47We've got to sometimes break off referral income and all this sort of stuff. Our margin as an agency will always be sort of 25 % to 30 % net. So it's relatively strong. It takes. Yeah, it's relatively strong. My God. But fortunately, and this is the first time ever, we were able to maintain our December figures through May. You know, it's typical for an agency like ours to absolutely kill it in the winter. Okay. And then February comes and people start to get distracted. Yeah. But we held on to it till May this year, which is great. How long have you been in this game for? There's a 2021, we're now 2025, August 2025.

9:19You've been in the game four years. How quickly did this take off for you?

9:25Take off is like a difficult term. So I felt that it took off in May because we did our first 10K month. So May in 2022. We did the first 10K a month. And how did you feel at that time being a young lad knowing you've just hit 10K? It was actually the second time that I'd done it. So I was already doing relatively well. I was doing 15 to 20K a month with my own fitness consultant soon. Because I had such an easy time picking up clients because I was good at what I did in the powerlifting space. There were a lot of young lads that want to be big and strong. And that was my target market because I was also a young lad who was trying to be big and strong.

9:57And because I happened to also be quite good at it, it was easy for me to sell. I had a few great relationships and added a lot of value to some famous influencers and youtubers at the time Namely people like Joe Fazer You know, I really helped Joe. I took him on a great transformation and he gave me public credit for it So, you know, these sort of things compounded I was doing relatively well Which I think is another reason why we did well in the OnlyFans space because You'd learnt your trade before Yes, and I think Cam respected me because I walked away from 15 plus grand a month You know, 21 years old and I think Cam looked at that and sort of was like, well he clearly believes in me and the business and what we're doing here um because i was financially better off than cam because he was in a business where you know i think it also taught cam the value of service-based business because he was in products and he was having to every pound he made was going back over to china for the next round of stock and cam was living month to month himself his business was doing okay but him himself you know he wasn't liquid at all and i think that taught him the value of service-based business um he respected the fact that i was willing to walk away from my own success which you know at that time i was making the most money i'd ever made in my life yeah um so that definitely helped us so today you're looking at a million pound net profit roughly a month yeah it's that is unreal yeah it's it's a i mean look it's that's a unicorn it's on the way to being a unicorn but that's unbelievable how many years have you been doing that for would you say a million a month yeah profit um not that long i mean we hit peak pretty much month to month especially throughout the winter so it has been slow steady linear growth yeah um we always record in december it's been the way since you know since early on because technically we hit a record in december 21 and 22 and everything else and so um you know we've always had that record month in december and we always look forward to what december and january would look like but as i say you know for us we we did similar to that in december of last year but then we maintained it through early this year into may as well which is which is amazing so we're on top of the world you know we're finally starting to venture out into other things as well You know, we're in fitness again.

11:55We're in banking. We're in accountancy. We've got legal stuff being drafted that we're going to market with. So there's a lot more that we're doing with the TDM brand. What does TDM stand for? Initially, it was just three letters that stood for all of our businesses at once. So it was top draw management. It was top draw mail because we had a mail forwarding business at the time, which was a spinoff of the agency and that whole economy I mentioned, you know, registered office, company and corporations, mail forwarding accounts, all that sort of stuff. because it's the boring stuff that creators didn't want to deal with.

12:26So we thought, hey, we'll deal with that too. So that was what it initially meant. From there, it's just become through letters that don't have much of a meaning anymore. And that's just what it is. Explain to me what an agency does within OnlyFans and explain to me also how you got your foot in the door to meet these creators. So fundamentally, an agency's job is to do one or two things, relieve stress or add value, right? So we're either taking away duties so that a creator to continue to make the same amount of money they already make but with all of their time back no pressure you know time with their kids or their family or whatever the hell they want to do or time to go to Ibiza which is what most of them want to do and then the flip side of that is of course to just add value help them make more money so increase their their funnel size you know how many people can they reach on social media how well can we convert that new audience that we've tapped into and how can we make each of those customers more valuable to us in other words how community clt being on the page so they're they're the fundamental ways that an agency adds value and markets their service to creators most of them try and meet creators through you know referrals introductions commissioning influencers to make introductions club owners beach clubs there's a lot of that going on nowadays and of course there's just basic outreach on social platforms most big agencies will bring in pretty much everybody through referral yeah it's all referrals pretty much 90 probably example hey you know katie's killing it and katie knows stacy and katie tells stacy how good we are and how much money she's making and stacy said hey i want to do the same wow you can't beat that no well mouth referrals unbelievable but the more you have the bigger your network the more there is sort of like a shout out for shout out ability and you directly benefit from a bigger network of creators which directly helps you access more creators and it quickly begins to snowball without you really trying yeah which is of course i mean that's just leverage of being a big player in an industry i suppose but we're very much experiencing that and i wish we're grateful for so give me example you meet your first girl called katie in 2022 what was your conversation with that girl we totally winged it from the beginning as i said you know what's interesting now is that if you were setting up an only fans agency and you went to an only fans creator and was like hey you know i want to offer you agency management services they'd be like no thanks you know because they've had bad experiences they've heard all the the negativity around it because a lot of these guys are you know there's a lot of 18 19 20 year olds trying to make their first buck because the barrier to entry is pretty much zero you know the problem is with a lot of these online industries even it was the same with fitness coaching is that you go to the gym for six weeks you can call yourself coached by name you you know you understand how only fans works you can set up an agency so the problem is the average standard professional standard as well of these agencies sucks so most creators hate the turn hate the pitch hate the service but back then nobody knew what it was yeah you know so when i came to some of these careers because i handled a lot of the outreach and the sales calls and when i would sort of say to you know in your example katie um she'd be like oh wow you know that's cool like yeah that makes sense i can see why that makes sense i'm you know they were a bit startled by the fact that they had to share their earnings to begin with because that's a totally new way of doing things back then for this industry but they understood it and you know a few of them tried it we're always very fair as well you know we did lifetime trials we didn't tie them into contracts we never would never take more than 50 50 um which by the way most agencies do yeah so a lot of those things made our offer better right it was easier if you return to home it is some deal it is but for us it's fair because it's a lifetime trial so it's like look we'll do 50 50 because we'll add all the value but if you don't like it leave you know okay there's no pressure um it's not like i'm asking you to commit to giving this half your earnings for the next year like a lot of guys as well.

15:59So for example, say if Katie, say if you come along, Katie's earning 100 grand a year, I tell you what, say she's earning 10 grand a month, 120 grand a year, what's your chat to her? We can take this to what level? So providing that I actually felt this way, I would pick out the things that were holding her back and I would highlight the areas that we would like to explore with her. The biggest problem, Dodge, is that most of them have no clue how to brand themselves. So they'll just presume that more is better, you know, so if I can post more TikToks or do an extra Instagram reel, I'm going to make more money.

16:30But fundamentally, that's not what wins. You and I probably both know thousands of creators that we've seen pumping content and getting nowhere. And there are also the flip side of that. There's loads of creators that don't do that much, but absolutely kill it.

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18:04What if you had a room where no one interrupts? No notifications. No expectations. Just space to talk. With BetterHelp, therapy happens in a space that's yours. visit better help.com slash random podcast for 10 off your first month of online therapy the difference is the quality right it's it's how interesting is the content so we always think about branding and some of my modern day references for this are like alex hormosey is technically in the niche of entrepreneur businessman youtube but you don't care right the cap the no strip the vest that's his brand and he's recognizable but it's the same with all of these OnlyFans careers, right?

18:46I always reference a creator like Jellybean, okay? People know her as Jamila Smith. I'm not sure if you guys would know her. She's got 7 million followers, but she's just some, you know, kind of short Latin looking. She's relatively hot, but she's nothing obscure. You know, she doesn't stand out by herself, but she jumps up and down on Lamborghinis and beats the fuck out of them. How are you not going to remember her? You know, she is incredibly well branded. So my argument to a lot of these creators is like, look, your content's cool you're attractive you've got a lot of the basic boxes ticked but i don't remember your content so it's a question of how willing are you and open-minded are you to changing the way that you present yourself changing your content style and other kind of conversations will happen if they're on board and they like the way we do things and the ideas that we come up with then we'll move forward because in almost every case you know if we take them on and we come up with a brand they'll go viral yeah and are you 100 confident in that well as you see it today i guess but at the start you're saying are you trying to make characters out of them you're trying to give them a bit more something rather than just a model we're trying to get to the point where if somebody watches the content then they'll forget about it okay you know so for and is this the content that isn't paid for it's the content oh yeah is it the content that is on instagram and tiktok and facebook but the content behind that what people have to pay for it's nothing to do with you it is to do with us but we don't have a say you know i don't feel like it's our place to tell creators what they should and shouldn't do sexually yeah um of course there's always the obvious you know the more explicit you are the more money you can typically make and you know i suppose that's obvious but for us we don't feel it's our place to tell them what they should and shouldn't do sexually so we don't you know we stick to the social media so uh of course we'll we'll monetize the page and and everything else but we choose to do it with the content that they feel comfortable providing and that's that the social media is where we think you know that's what moves the ball because if you've got 10 new subscribers a month well it doesn't matter what content you've got behind the wall you're not going to make that much money whereas if you've got a million new subscribers i mean that's unrealistic but it doesn't matter what content's there you're paid yeah you know and so i guess that's why we look at the socials so i want to break down how the business model works for the girl is it girls and boys yeah males are absolutely killing it rarely but when they when you understand how to market them yes have you got any males on your books give me an example of the most success successful male you have on your books what he's doing right so we've actually had a lot of famous males um over the years like youtubers and um footballers and people that you and i would know um footballers that i can't really speak about because it's it's out of my line really to touch on those friendly league footballers no uh those past content creators that we had a relationship with but don't now what tends to work is not fame is not being attractive you know we've had love island lads and that kind of thing over the years and in fact we still do now but they don't tend to perform anywhere near as well as those that are more like christian gray james bond style all the characters you know mature men and what's nuts about it is that their audience is female so the subscribers that are paying money are women wow that blew me away because that was the first time i'd seen that because the love island guys you're attracting gay men what the younger 20 year old they're attracting gay but the older 40 50 year old men are attracting 90 plus percent women absolutely wild wow i couldn't believe it i thought it was a total anomaly and then we stepped more into that and that's the way that it is and it's absolutely crazy so give an example of someone smashing it a male who's smashing it financially and real example a real example of someone how much do you reckon they're do in a month oh okay well our current best success is it's not the highest earning mail that we have on our books but it's the biggest increase in revenue in a short space of time um is a chap who we signed virtually brand new he'd come out of a corporate role because he's had a successful decorated career he's you know tall he's in shape he's corporate he's well spoken and he he looks cool you know i mean he's just a cool guy he's the kind of guy that would wear a suit and getting an out of an aston martin yeah just you're cool yeah um anyway fast forward three and a half months we're 150k net a month a month three and a half months it's faster than i've seen some you know viral women climb in revenue and you and you if he's doing a ton 50 a month turnover is this dollars dollars all of its dollars okay so we're talking 100 grand sterling sure roughly so he's getting 50 grand you're getting 50 grand yes yeah exactly that and what does he have to do he already came to us with a lot of sexual content because i think by the my impression he's lived an interesting life he's you know had a few women in his time and he's already got the content so essentially all he really did was shoot viral content right you know we did some media buying on some cpc sites um which is cpc cosper click so things like only finder you know it's a great tool for um fetish based creators for cbc it's been up and down over the last year but it's good right now and how much is that coming out of click uh i don't actually know is it like a pound a click i believe it's less but i don't actually know and i don't want to give a number because i'll be wrong yeah i can find out if you're interested um and then other interesting interesting get involved underground a month yeah well you know what it's interesting because cam said to me the other day it was like you know what i'm just i'm 30 now i'm almost old enough i'm gonna have to start and it makes sense it's free money yeah you know it's especially on stuff like cpc where you haven't got to go ultra viral yourself it's free money so give an example so cpc you're individually a targeting at a certain audience who may like this bond looking fella that the girls can come and say right so you click bam and that gives lets them know about him and it's up to them whether they want to subscribe to him or not essentially i know this site in particular only finder i mean i didn't intend to give them the credit here but essentially the way that they work is you can you know pick by category what you're interested in it might be guys it might be big boobs it might be teens it might be asian whatever and then you've got a list basically of creators within that niche now the list is ranked based on how much you pay per click the more you pay per click which is why i can't tell you because it's always changing the more you pay per click the higher you will rank but it always changes with niches so if you want to be at the top of something like blonde yeah good luck you're going to pay a lot of course you are okay yeah whereas if you want to be at the top of mail in the uk it's easy because there's not much no there's not much competition especially older guys you know it's always a younger love island like guys yeah yeah um so that's why it works really well and it's very profitable that's why i said to you the cpc is a good move for that kind of niche because um it just makes sense whereas that is not the move for a girl next door hot 20 year old yeah you know that that's not the move right we want to look to viral social content for that so that guy there he can go under the radar because you're not doing paid media on instagram and tiktok and everything else if he doesn't want it he's actually targeting with a cost per click or are you getting behind him saying that you need to really up your tiktok and your facebook you know we do do it all yeah because it would be a it would be a misuse of his time if we didn't because if you didn't spread the net wider because there is you know a lot of traffic to be sucked up in that niche that we now found you know this was a this is a last six months thing yeah you know like we've been guys on board yeah like that that genre of guys we hadn't had much experience with that prior we'd only ever had the love island males we were never something that we monetized particularly well we always found they capped at like 30 40 50k a month um whereas this was our first time of course celebrities and youtubers will always make more but that's because they are unique cases i feel that you can't really include them so if there's a male youtuber doing 300k a month well is that because he's male or is it because he's a family you know so we kind of exclude those examples okay but other than that niche has always been what we've done right so like to some degree giantess dwarf trans femboy these sort of things have always killed it but male's a new one okay so this so just go back to that list you just mentioned then uh i think i said giantess what's giantess like super tall okay so like six foot five never heard that word before but go okay so six foot five plus six foot five i mean look there's no definition but tall super tall women yeah yeah exactly okay so there are some amazing creators we don't work with this creator but an example of it publicly would be somebody like Marie Tamara.

27:06I do believe, I don't quote me, she's like seven foot, I think. And she produces incredible content walking through society in these incredibly tall pleaser heels. And she just sticks out like a sore thumb. And as a result, she gets a shitload of views. And enough views eventually yields enough clicks. It eventually yields enough revenue. So she just wins on being society's abnormality, right? um so that's an example there same with dwarf but on the other side you know content's interesting it's different that they can be very funny you know i tend to find them all incredibly funny yeah um trans was just interesting because rewind two or three years when this started to become popular you're scrolling through your feed and there's like this really attractive girl but she's got a bulge you're gonna stop scrolling you're gonna try and understand what the hell am i looking at here and then it so happens that you know you end up in a dark place when you're lonely in the winter and you end up figuring out what the hell's going on you know that's the journey that a lot of guys are going on no um femboy and trans are similar it's just to doing the pronouns so you know it's that that's always worked because it sticks out there's enough hot women on the net for free on porn sites so the abnormalities perform well on the platform do you work on ratios at all like if you're looking at going like paid media if we get a thousand clicks that thousand will will turn into two subscribers i mean kind of yeah we don't have any metrics There's no metrics on that.

28:28Not particularly because every piece of content is really different. There are some skit style content. For anybody who's watching who's familiar with the industry, you've got the Bophouse and you've got creators like Sophie Raine. These are probably the most famous creators at the moment. And they do what I call skits, which are just like trends basically on socials. And it's cool, but it doesn't build a brand because you're just doing what everybody else does. There's been all sorts of those over the years. Some interesting ones as well, like breastfeeding was allowed on the platform. so you were able to have your nipple out if you were breastfeeding so the whole industry got the nipple out to breastfeed and you know these are examples of skits that don't build a brand they just get you some views conversion will suck you know on that in particular but the views will be crazy every video will do 7 million views for two or three weeks until it gets shadow banned that will kill it but then in views but not in conversion whereas another style of content like for example if you're streaming on twitch you know and you're playing minecraft you might only get a few hundred people on the live, but chances are a hundred of those quite like you.

29:27And we'll probably consider subscribing. So your conversion will be strong.

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30:37Going back to this fellow who's only 100 grand a month. How much does he charge for someone to subscribe? And then what happens once you've gone behind that paid wall? What does it look like? A couple of dollars is all it takes to subscribe. You do have the ability to charge up to$15. And are you just doing like, I'm talking pound notes here, it's a quid to subscribe. You've then got all their bank details and all the details you need. And then once they're in there, they can decide what they want to buy, is it? Yeah, just full disclosure, every number I mention is dollars because that's what this economy operates in.

31:09So nothing I mentioned today is pounds. Everything is dollars and most of it is gross revenues. news. But they will charge a, you know, three to five dollars typically to enter the platform. And then once you're on the platform, you have to manually upsell content. So account management teams will send this customer pieces of content that they think that that person would like based on the conversation. So if the guy joins and says, you know, I saw you in, I don't know, these latex leggings and I thought you look great. Well, the team might upsell them more content in that style. Oh, I see. So your team will then feed them more content.

31:43And will you give them a little teaser of what they're about to get, like a 20-second teaser? Yeah. Every chat is different, but yeah. A lot of the time they might get that or they might, you know, a lot of people tend to request custom content where they explain exactly what they want and they pay up front for a video that would follow. So you, so you, oh my, okay. So basically you can ask that creator to do whatever you want as long as you're paying the right money. Yeah. So you can probably find a creator to do probably any type of video that you would want to see right other than of course things that rate the law which only fans prohibit and what's that what's breaking the law so obviously they're against violence blood bestiality um paedophilia incestory all this kind of obvious stuff not allowed but anything sexual within the parameters of the law in the country that you're is allowed to be sold.

32:33So it is. And is that, are you in a, I'm trying to get my head around this. I've never been on OnlyFans so I find it really interesting. That old chestnut. Yeah, honest. No, but what happens when you go past the subscribe bit there? Are you on face to face with that person or is it all just behind written words? So there is a term and condition with OnlyFans where they basically pre-warn the customer that they may or may not be talking to the creator and or their team so they are fully aware that they might be talking to the creator's team yeah but oftentimes they're okay with it in their own mind because they just want to see a certain piece of content okay if they find her attractive and they want to see her getting fucked yeah then they'll go and buy the piece of content irrespective of who's selling it to them right um sorry i hesitated i wasn't sure whether i can swear yeah you can say whatever you want So with that in mind, you know, a lot of guys will just purchase the content.

33:30Yeah. Irrespective. But then other guys, they want to feel like they've got a relationship. They want to feel like they know the real creator. So they might pay for custom content where they mention the name. They might, you know, want to pay for video calls. You know, they might want something more real. Because a lot of the guys look at it from the angle of they want a relationship. They're lonely at home. Their wife doesn't fulfill them. Yeah. It's not a sexual thing for them. It's a connection thing. Mm. This could just be another addiction, whether it's drink, drugs, food, sex. This just could be another addiction for someone who's just putting their bank details online going, boom, can you show me that for, I don't know, under a quid?

34:05Oh, mate, we've had people spend stupid amounts. You know, there have been cases where people will spend six figures on one particular video. It's absolutely wild. What, a hundred grand on one video? Yeah, I mean, we've had one account do 200 grand in a day before, not just on one video. In fact, it was one video but it was sold to the masses but not just one person i mean but the amount of money that can be made is absolutely wild and that 200 grand in a day on that account i did actually document that full process on youtube you can find it yeah um where we just watched all the ppp prices come in you know one after the other every second it's like boom boom boom boom 50 50 what the same fellas again no no no no different people okay different people but we made 200 grand from one video on one account in one day um which shows you the power of the platform and what can be done A lot of people take that literally.

34:49A lot of people take the piss. A lot of these agencies, especially those that are now facing issues with lawsuits in America and this kind of thing, they really go too far. They don't have any consideration for the welfare of their team. They don't have any consideration for the welfare of the subscribers. They will literally just pursue you at any means necessary to take every possible dollar and squeeze every dollar out of you. We have a different stance on that for both business and moral reasons. One, I don't feel particularly good about ruining people's lives and bankrupting them. I understand it's not my problem but I also feel that we don't need to do it secondly and this is you know fundamentally why I think it makes sense for people to adopt this way of doing things is that if you rinse somebody and they go bankrupt one you're you've got you know potential legal issues but two they aren't probably going to spend again you know you probably corrupted their life they're probably not going to come back whereas if you allow them to have some sort of sustainable commitment where they're super happy with their purchase they want to consistently purchase from you and but their life isn't affected in a negative way they're probably going to be a a customer and be worth a new more long term anyway.

35:47So if we're going this journey now, so 2022, you come up with the idea, you've jumped in, you've hit your first 10 grand month. How long did it take you to hit 100 grand a month? I don't actually know what month we hit 100 grand. I just know that we hit a million by the end of the year. So it was a rapid growth. So gross, you did a million, but after 12 months. Yeah. So give or take, you know, a couple of thousand dollars, we were pretty much at a million by that December. Of that. And you launched when? In 2020? One year prior. So December to December. yeah okay um so we had an amazing first year you know again speaking in gross revenue yeah but that was great and then you know we continually grew from that point there to where we are now we just had a few ups and downs on the way you know we lost a few big creators we had all sorts of issues you know at one point we were too vertically scaled then we were too horizontally what do you mean by through vert so we put all of our eggs into a couple of creators okay you know we helped them grow specifically we had a couple of creators one creator did 900k a month one creator did 400k a month.

36:44Over the course of those two years, we ended up losing both of those. Not at the same time. Jettel-Yavs in one basket, basically. And we realized, damn, they pull like 60 % of our business turnover when they leave. That's not good for us. So we had that issue that we had early on. What year was that? When did that come on early? So there were two different cases. One was October of 2023, because we'd just moved into the new office in September. We had all these people. We had this team. We had 100 staff at this point. We had everybody in the office. And it was surreal that we had this business and all these people relied on us and then we lost loads of turnover which was like the first time me and cam felt real pressure yeah um but that happened and then we had the flip side where we were like right horizontally scaled no risk you know we're not having any risk yeah and then we had no good creators pretty much you know we had like a bunch of creators that each did 100 under 100k and then we found the middle ground under 100k a month yeah okay which is you know great 100k a month sounds like a lot of money and it is a lot of money if you had that pound in your own bank yeah but a hundred thousand dollars a month when you deduct all of the fees and you actually think about what that looks like for an agency it's not just pay your staff pay your overhead okay it's not enough yeah you know it really isn't so we needed more creators um that were able to adopt you know bigger potentials and then that we got that right in 2024 like really right because we were doing well you know we're still doing multiple millions in turnover at this point but we could fundamentally see our own downfall whereas in 2024 we got it right because this is really interesting i always say the word i mean the phrase never waste a good crisis you come into the pandemic there's a massive crisis going on you found a niche in the market and grown so quickly overnight i say overnight i don't mean overnight in the grand scheme of things it's like jesus christ three months six months 12 months hit a million i want to know if we bring it back a little bit as you and cam started probably i'd imagine not out of an office out of one of your somewhere when when did you start going we need more staff and why did you go up to 100 staff within a year we hired at the rate that we needed to to fulfill the business that we picked up i in the least arrogant way possible backed myself on a sales call and in an environment like ours where we were doing so well at something new the interest is super high you know we had the attention we had the interest and i was giving people the desiring conviction on the phone to act you know and if we run through the framework of marketing with aidcast we had all those first five right so it was relatively easy to pick up clients at this point and are some of the other people in the space that were doing well you know a couple of names would be people like nath asten dean indigo dylan mfm they were creators or no these are these are other agencies okay so these are agencies that were you know i suppose you could say there are competitors and they were the most successful competitors that we had now they all used our services they all white labeled our agency and the way that we did things and they were public about it you know they advertised online that we were doing the work behind the scenes so on youtube on their youtube channels so not only did we have our own organic referral scheme but we had all of this online i suppose validation that we were really good at what we did so we grew exponentially fast and the combination of having a lot of interest with good sales skills is that you need a lot of staff to fulfill all the new business so we were hiring hiring hiring hiring friends families we ran out of friends pretty quickly you also learn a few lessons about who your real ones are when you hire them um so that was an up and down journey in itself but we just started packing our lads into this townhouse um in derbyshire um that initially me and cam were planning to live in and kicked ourselves out by making each floor it was three floors one floor at a time it just became offices offices offices until we had something about um and it became a full office you know and then we ended up moving into the tdm hq as it is today where's that um so the current hq and i say current because the new one is almost finished the current one is in a place called litchfield which you know um but then the new one is in closer into birmingham more towards like warsaw way um but it's still 10 minutes away and that's a big new facility you know on-site 7 000 square foot gym on-site spa multiple glass floors we've got an event or spj in the middle where all the glass offices look down on it's going to be fantastic and you bought that yeah so that's the that's the current project it's nearly nearly finished um how much did that hold that project cost would you say seven figures it's an expensive project but it's totally worth it in our view because it also allows us to be corporately accepted yes you know we're not just what people presume and only fans agency are which is a bunch of thugs in their mom's basement yeah you know we are a professional stand-up business that will invite you in to look at the way we do things you know come and check the way we handle our data come and check the way that we treat our customers we're incredibly proud of that and we invite you the pressure you know and i think that was why we wanted to do that what problems have you come across in the early days when building this business um i mean the the personal scrutiny yeah you know it's hard especially in our local area nobody says anything to our face but people do have an opinion of course they do and we welcome it because we understand it right people are to judge how old are you today 25 25 25 so we're going back to say three years ago so you'd have been 22 21 21 earning copious amounts of money maybe not the first year but going into year two three earning serious serious money here in what period when people knew that you were an agency for only fans where you were people were going oh that's him over there doing the only fans thing because they just probably people may have just seen it as a different version of a porn business yeah well that's totally what they look at they look at it as like this business where we objectify women and you know all of these things that that's the perception that people have nobody's given us any heat you know we've never had any conflict or or um nobody's ever confronted us about what we do because nobody can because we are stand-up guys who speak the truth do the right thing and deal with people the same way that we did before we went into the industry so it's virtually possible for people to have a problem with us because we're good people we do the right thing for the community you know if you look at the way that we've spent our money and the things that we've done you know for people around us we're incredibly selfless good-hearted people you know one of the first things we ever did was retire our parents if you look at the way that we spent our money it's been on family it's on friends you know we're good people so hold this hold i love this i love this go back you retired your family first thing we did that is beautiful tell me before we bought lamborghinis and all the rest of them the all of all four of our parents worked jobs yeah but all four of our parents were you know we felt they were holding back on the life that they could live yeah um and we were in a position to make it a reality right it didn't last very long you know because we have parents who are aspirational and they want to own their own way in life and and so they work for us now um you know our dad's all on the payroll yeah our moms work relatively few hours you know they have a very easy life because they're our moms yeah of course um but our dads on the other hand they're both absolute soldiers you know they want to work as many hours in the day as possible they're trying to keep up with us you know so like we brought our dads in they're both in relatively senior roles they're both incredible at what they do and fundamentally what we like about it is that we get to spend every day with them and they care about our business right we know that we can trust them with the way that they conduct themselves we know that they've got an eye out for the business and all of our senior team is like best friends of years or family members you know my brother my dad cam's cousin you know cam's cousin is the architect that's built the entire new place cam's dad like it's great it's absolutely fucking great because we spend every day with our loved ones and the business is a great place to be there's no conflict there's no bullshit it's just stand up say what you think you know be good to people care about the business care about each other and i love that that's why i said people to your first question um because that's what motivates me everywhere you know that's why i want to go to this it's all about people i wouldn't go into the office by myself no and i would but not as many hours a day you know but the fact that when I get there, my brother's there, my dad's there.

44:37That's great. Tell me about your first big hit when you transferred the money into your personal bank account and going, oh my God, I think I've made this. TBC, yet to feel like that. Very driven towards non-financial goals, very driven towards trying to do whatever the current task in hand is. I want to be the best at it in the world. I want to have a crazy amount of success with any of the current plans that we have, whether it be what we're doing with the banking whether it be the accountancy even just the agency you know i don't want to rest until we are the best at what we do undisputably um so that's more interesting to me than the finances are but the finances what's the most expensive thing you've ever bought um a stupid thing was probably last week you know when we picked up the event or svj because it's 550 grand on something that sits on the driveway that you're too scared to drive so like stuff like that is is stupid i mean um stuff that we've actually paid for that's more than that we've required a business for seven figures we built an office for seven figures so there are some more expensive things that we've done yeah but stupid stuff that's fun to talk about the svj what about holidays what's the most expensive holiday you've been on i don't know i don't know we do a lot of spontaneous travel you know we don't actually tend to sort of like plan it um we do a lot of road trips you know we love taking supercars and driving through all parts of europe and that kind of thing but we don't ever plan anything you know we've done some cool stuff over the years flown into um you know the south of france on a private jet and have the three supercars waiting on the runway like some stuff like that we've lived in that sense we've had those experiences um not that they you know shape your future in any way but i think their experience is to help you remember it but fundamentally we did it with our parents as well but you know those jets i've took two private jets with three private jets in my life i think three private jets first one was me cam and two of our senior lads yeah just where did you go we went to nice that was the time with these super cars because one of the guys that we took has uh amg gt yeah um so the three of us went we took a r8 and a hurricane and they were waiting for us on the the runway that was the first experience second experience me and cam actually flew our dads on a private jet out to the saudi arabia boxing the title era yusik fight quality that was awesome well that was really cool and then the third one i took my mom to paris lovely so they're the three jets i've had lovely they're not you know business class is better they're not um i'm not going to advocate that they're worth it or that I now longer fly economy because I did but there were experiences that were amazing brilliant experience tell me about the experience flying out to Saudi Arabia for the for the fight yeah where did you fly from in the UK took the PJ out went from Farnborough Farnborough's where we stroked to Saudi yeah that we ended up going on a few flights for that trip so they came out with us to Saudi Arabia and then we went to Tenerife and Portugal and we took a jet there as well it was it was awesome um a lovely week with our parents well it was our dads what's the what's the nicest feeling about having a lot of money for you is it the freedom yeah yeah yeah i think it's the freedom to be able to just make spontaneous decisions you know like for example this is a personal journey that i've gone on in the last couple of months i've really enjoyed racing you know round tracks with cars and we have an m2 club sport i race it most weeks and i really want to get into that and it's the freedom to say right well i'm going to enter a championship next year so i'll have an m4 gt4 ebo and i'll enter that championship and the fact that i didn't need to think about it you know i don't have to worry i don't know what the car price is i don't care i just i want to do that i'm going to do that that kind of freedom i suppose is incredibly great um which i think sometimes you forget to appreciate but then moments bring it back don't they so that's cool and then as i say the main thing for me is people you know the fact that i can spend every day with people i care about doing fun stuff that's the best because i Let's see what we're doing as fun.

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49:42When you could say you're an official millionaire. I suppose the business would have been worth that when I was 22. Liquid probably 23 because they're different things, aren't they? So people will say they're a millionaire, but they don't have it liquid. Absolutely. And that's the key. It's interesting. What's your version of a millionaire? Because we've all got our own versions. I mean, in theory, it's not when you have it in the bank. It's when what you have around you, the assets that you have are worth more than your liabilities in excess of a million. I also think that the currency doesn't help because you could be a million, you know, you have a business where the million dollars is very different to having a million pounds in the bank.

50:18They are totally different things and they're probably double the value. But yeah, I mean, I achieved the first at 22, the second at 23. And what about your version of a multimillionaire? There's probably three or more. Two or more. Three or more, okay. Well, I suppose in theory it's two or more, isn't it? Two or more is in my mind. But some people go, oh, seven, eight, nine, ten. I've never thought of them. No, it's just an interesting conversation. People use the term loosely, don't they? For example, there's people in the OnlyFans business that have done a million dollars over a year in gross revenue, which, by the way, they probably made a 50-gram-pound profit themselves on that, after all things considered, because a lot of these guys are working on 10%, 20 % margins, because, you know, to kind of go on a tangent back to what we mentioned before, people are getting into the market because there's no barrier to entry, but their only leverage is that they can charge less than everybody else.

51:09So the market efficiency is eating them up, and they are just charging 10 % and breaking even a lot of the time. So in those instances, excuse me, there will be somebody who makes a million dollars a year, of which they probably profited 50K or less pounds themselves, but they're a millionaire in their eyes because they did a million dollars a year. Okay. You're saying someone, a creator will do a million dollars. They've got to give 50 % away to the agency. Depending on their contract. Depending on the contract. And then they're left with 500 grand. You reckon they're working on 10 % net profit of that 500 grand.

51:39Oh, no. Sorry. Sorry. No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that some agencies, so our competitors, for example, we charge 50 % for our services because we're actually very good at what we do. We have a lot of industry leverage. A lot of our competitors that are just getting into this don't have that. They've got no proof. no offer, no understanding. So the only thing that they can do is charge less to pick up clients. That's what I mean. So they might - The right on the bottom. It totally is. So they might charge 10, 15 % for their full services and break even or make a couple of grand.

52:10How do you introduce yourself if you go to a wedding and you're meeting someone on a table of 10 people on the table? How would you introduce yourself? Well, it used to be a difficult problem because it's like, well, we do social media, you know, and like in time what we learned to not care and be honest because we're not we shouldn't have to feel like we're afraid to talk about what we do and who we are because we're good people with a genuine business like anybody else and in fact we do more for our community by hiring all these young lads and paying them well and teaching them values than all of the other starbucks and mcdonald's and all these other companies do so why should we suffer you know that's my argument but nonetheless nowadays we've got a few more options we can say that we're gym owners or bank owners and that's really cool you know i feel better about that and would you and would you introduce yourself just as an entrepreneur so we've if someone got we had a deeper conversation i sat next to you what you're doing mate for a living and you know that we were sound as a pan with each other you go right yeah i had an agency for only fans i hit it off in 2022 i've been running for three years it's completely taken off beyond my wildest dreams and this is exactly what i do would you be comfortable saying that yeah totally like especially you said that we we got on one So yeah, totally.

53:16I mean, I don't feel the urge to tell people about adult a lot of the time because it unpicks a lot of questions. Or it makes people have their own version of what adult is. Either that, which is less so now. But the bigger problem is that it opens me up to so many questions. Similar to the conversation we've just had, you asked very typical questions that the gen pop are interested in because it's new for them. So I get a lot of the questions that you've just asked me a lot of the time because people want to know. The reason why is because people don't know. They don't know. Like, I don't know anything about OnlyFans.

53:47Like, I don't know what goes on. That's why I'm so intrigued to find what goes on behind a paid wall. And, oh, my God, I didn't realize people were paying that sort of money for live and this sort of stuff. I want to know, in growing your business, have you had any court cases? Nope. Fortunately, it's a touch wood. It will say that way because we try and protect ourselves against all of that. Have you had any staff leave? Yes. Yeah. And how do you deal with staff leaving? We don't have sort of like a... A high turnover. We don't have a high turnover of staff, no. definitely not because we hire people with very very rigorous um protocol yeah you know that we undergo during recruitment so we're pretty hands-on with getting the right candidates in i also think if you've got to apply for our business you know what you're getting into okay if we accept you we know that you're a stand-up guy um we're about 70 male which is different we started off as virtually 100 male because our friends are guys yeah and as we became more corporate we started to hire people to do a job rather than because we knew them yeah and we ran out of friends yeah indeed is it male only and not that it's a problem in fact the females are amazing um but it's a little bit more of a rigorous process then what's the most amount of pressure you found yourself under within this business was it when you had all your eggs in one basket you had all your staff there and the two creators left and you're like shit i've got this overhead now and i haven't got enough money to turn over to bring in to behave for everyone those creators were at different times yeah there were 20 uh start 23 end of 23 i think don't quote me too much something like that um so they weren't the same time but they were definitely stressors because there was real responsibility on our head right you know in the second one the bigger one um she was doing nine underground yeah best part of yeah yeah yeah we were it was eight something i think yeah uh we were three weeks into this office this new office in Litchfield, this corporate office.

55:38The three floor one? No, that was the house. We moved into this corporate office. So you had all the overhead for that? Not that the overheads were huge. I meant more in the sense that I was looking every day at all of these people who had families who we were responsible for because we were putting food on their families' plates. And there was a lot of pressure then because we were like, wow, a lot of people rely on us. And our business is not at risk, but we just had a realisation of how fast it can change. It was self-inflicted and we could fix it. And fortunately, we were still doing well in the rest of it.

56:10It was just that we lost a big client. It's not that big of a deal. We lost one of our 30 clients or whatever the hell it was. But at that time, that just gave us the realization that don't take anything for granted. Why did you lose that client? I suppose the problem with the management fees are that because it's a percentile, when somebody does really well, you become a big expense. so when they're kickstarting 10 grand a month you're 50 they're still you know relatively happy but the problem is and sometimes i think some of them forget that we're the reason why they've grown not to take anything away from them we're not the only reason it's you know it's a 50 50 partnership because the contract suggests and we can't work without them so i'm not suggesting they don't need us or that we are the only reason they're successful or anything like that but when you get to a million a month uh or if you get to a million a month and you've got to pay somebody 50 of that it becomes a lot cheaper to in your own mind hire your own team 500 because you can have a lot of staff for that so i think and i can speak for others here because we've only ever had it happen once out of the number of creators that we've had over that threshold and i think it's because of the relationship that we build and the value that we add but for a lot of agencies they just charge too much for the value that they add and they don't have the relationship and the rapport with that client to where the client feels like it's a justifiable expense for so when you make too much you become too expensive okay and how easy for that girl to say liam thank you mate but i'm off skews well for us it's so they can do that overnight because there's no contract for us there is a contract for consent basis of course but the contract doesn't have a stated term so we don't lock them into like a one year for example we have the lifetime trial so you know you agree to all of our policies we see just the way we do things you consent to every detail that but if you want to leave you can you know we're not going to get in your way we do that because everything is the right thing to do more and most of the agencies won't because they recognize it's a risk to their business so they'll contract for six months a year we've seen people contract for five years my god so someone's locked in for five years supposedly but my argument is that it's dumb anyway because if your content creator takes you to court and says that you are you know essentially no matter what they say the jury will side with her do you really think they're going to sit there and say hey you know you should be paying this guy half of your money from the sex industry yeah never gonna happen so what's the point yeah you You just, you know, your morality suffers.

58:26You've got a worse offer, and it doesn't actually help you in court anyway. How many clients have you had on your books from day one to today? I don't actually know that number, but I think well over 500. 500. In fact, I know it's over 500, yeah, but I don't know what the actual number is. And how many clients are you sitting on today? A hundred and something. Okay, and that just does an amazing amount, a million pound a month. Sorry? A million dollars a month that you're getting at the moment. In profit from those creators, yeah. It's wild. Yeah. isn't it? Yeah. Do you sit there as an entrepreneur now going, I built my little business before, powerlifting, I've gone straight into this, I've hit the jackpot.

59:02Are you now going, well, I need to invest in other stuff, I need to invest in plenty of other stuff to spread myself because, and also when you sometimes in business, when you spread yourself too thin, you take your eye off the ball of what brings in the real money. Are you very aware that your eye is not off the ball? I feel really passionately about that because I think so many young entrepreneurs that are aspirational, they want to go on and you know diversify their income because somebody on social media but then what they don't realize is that in doing that they just cocked up the core business and the very reason why they were even in that position so i really get that but i also believe in who not how i believe in buying back the time i believe in in people so for me i don't think that me taking my eye off the ball is a problem providing that i've got people that have an eye on the ball that i have faith in so i like to think that we have the agency under enough control to where if Cam and I did decide to walk out, nothing would change.

59:56I like to think that. We don't choose to do that. But if we did, I'm confident it'd be fine. And in the instances where we have been off the ball, because when we're acquiring other businesses, we've put our foot into a few different industries that are totally different over the last couple of years, like a gym, driveway security company. We acquired a driveway security company that fits bollards all around the UK. These kind of things are sometimes a totally new thing to grasp. And when we're sticking our teeth into what's going on with that business on our portfolio, we don't have our eye on the ball with the agency so much.

1:00:28So then that's where it's been proven to us that we're fine because the agency hasn't suffered. And we're actually at record numbers despite us being distracted. So that proves that people matter more than yourself in that sense. What's the biggest dividend check you've written yourself at the end of the year? It's actually not crazy. We don't make much personal income because a lot of the cars are owned by the company or whatever. I mean, we have taken a good amount of money. Early on, I remember Cam and I were trying to build our own portfolio because...

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1:02:53We were broke despite the company being successful because we didn't take any personal income because who the hell wants to pay a personal tax for no reason? But then we wanted to buy this house where we lived together, Kam and I. A great decision, perfect good business. And we wanted to buy this house. It was more than we'd ever fathomed ever with anything in this business. So we took a good amount, like six-figure dividend each to make that work. And although relative to the amount of money we make, that's not probably as crazy as you thought. That was a big deal for us. I was thinking a seven-figure.

1:03:28Oh, hell no. No, okay. No, we're not that liquid. Remember, you're only year three, for Christ's sake. Yeah, we're relatively well invested because we're steady. We're consistently top. So do you like keeping the money in the business to allow you to go and acquire the business and give you breathing space if anything goes to it? So there's also more creative ways of getting money out for yourself without needing to just directly pay personal tax. Again, I'm not too bothered about being a personal liquid millionaire forever, providing that my lifestyle reflects it and the businesses that I have equity with and are performing well.

1:04:01Because there's a bigger picture there, isn't there? If you've got a great company and you can personally borrow against your stake within that company, you're in a better position than taking a big dividend. in doubt from a personal tax perspective anyway yeah so there are more creative ways and we've figured out a few of those that you know we're able to still be tax compliant but be slightly more efficient um so we figured that one have you got a missus girlfriend married yeah in a relationship and relationship with that relationship start when you were in this business or before we were together in school so uh no it's it's been the case how did you know how did your missus feel when you said listen i've got this idea it's in a bit of a different market but you know what I'm going to give it a go.

1:04:35And all of a sudden, oh my God, we've hit jackpot here. She cried. Okay. With? She cried at the very beginning when I explained the business idea. In what way you cried? In happiness? No, no, no. In I believe what you're doing? In her interpretation of what it meant when I first explained it, it took the full explanation for her to realize. Because you know what girls are like. Sometimes they hear what they need to hear, right? And when I explained this idea as a business that we were going to do, she read it as, oh my God, you're going into sex. You're going to treat me with all these girls. and you know as girls do and only when she fathomed that was she like okay yeah that's cool that's that's you know that's a great business it makes sense but she's been really supportive yeah you know so so it's it's something that i don't have an issue with that's one that's the most important thing in business is having a supportive other half imagine having a non-supported other half while you're trying to go and earn a pound note and bring in money for the family and build a business that must be awful it would get in the way more than anyone should used to believe yeah but I don't have that I don't have that problem yeah so I'm grateful for that Liam are you happy totally and utterly yeah I can see that the stress is welcomed I love it you know I genuinely live for it I never use the word stress I don't like the word stress I always use the word pressure okay yeah stress links to heart disease and things will do it's too much stress if it's pressure it's just how you deal with pressure yeah I like that because I always say stress is different like if you can handle pressure and you can handle big business, you're away.

1:06:01There's not a lot of people who can handle a lot of pressure, by the way. Yeah, I really like the way that you put that because I always say that stress is different. And no, I'm not that kind of stressed. I'm just stressed, but I like it. I always try and explain myself, but that makes perfect sense. I'm under a lot of pressure, but I'm not stressed in any way. I'm incredibly grateful for every day that I live. I can see. But I'm super happy with where I'm at. I don't feel like I work too hard. I love the fact that I have to work 14 hours a day just to keep things afloat for my own sanity. I think it's healthy.

1:06:28I think it keeps me occupied. I also think it means I don't get wrapped up in any of the stupid stuff that people in my position do. Anybody who makes the money that Cam and I make and doesn't have the pressure to keep going ends up in a long, dark place. Absolutely. And they get caught up in whatever it is that they're in because they start meeting friends that are on a similar vibe. They're in Marbella. They're in Ibiza. They're drinking. They're partying. They're doing drugs for the record. We don't do any of that. I absolutely hate partying. I'd sooner drink by myself at home than go to a party, right?

1:06:59And we'll drink in the office. We'll cheers if we've had a record day or whatever. And that, to me, is what it should be. Yeah. I've been doing anything worse than going to a party. I love a party. That's been my world for years. Nightclubs and festivals, that has been my world for 30 years now. Yeah. Yeah. I think on that side of it. I don't know, but I would never go drinking when I'm grafting. I just think it's the way that it makes me feel. it's not even that i don't have fun because you know we throw our own parties right like we've had office parties for christmas we've had all sorts of people there um you know we've had famous rappers from birmingham jk millions people performing at our office we've we've thrown cool parties um we've thrown amazing parties at our house you know we've had famous djs there we've we've enjoyed parties it's not that we're boring sods that don't want to have fun yeah it's just that we don't want to put ourselves in that environment publicly with idiots that drag us yeah yeah yeah i get it i get it nothing better than throwing a good party if you control it yeah mate it's great is your business sellable that's a tough question it's a really tough question that i i keep i keep discussing with myself it's interesting that you ask um in theory yes likely to no would you want to no it's a cash cow um it could probably pitch a relatively good evaluation based on the turnover alone a bit done multiple times what do you reckon i don't know i I find that difficult to say.

1:08:23You talk about 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, but because I think it's so scalable. Well, it's not subscription revenue. Our agency isn't. Even though indirectly it is in the platform. If you're, for example, let's say that we directly made the money from the subscribers that were on a monthly subscription and we could prove that the LTV was X over a certain period with certain churn rate, yeah, we'd sell for a much higher multiple, 15 possibly. but because we don't have that we have a lifetime trial contract with our creators that locked in rely on us being there a lot of the time that would harm a bit there but it would also harm achieving the valuation that the bit there wants a bit there's irrelevant because the valuation of the business doesn't mean anything for a lot of a lot of these businesses it doesn't matter what you think it's worth because it's not what i'm going to pay for it exactly so valuation is a whole load of vanity yeah what people will pay is the sound of it different until someone actually write a check and go there you go wallop thank you i think our check would be unfortunately a lot less than our valuation but i'm aware of that i'm okay with it because it's a cash card with some of the other things that we've done and some of the other businesses that we have give me a price that you would walk away from this business form damn what a question can i uh can i can i can i take a rain check can i have five damn um what do they say in dragon's den you go and you don't talk to the back wall yeah i'm gonna talk to the back wall i'll say damn i've never thought about it i'm gonna go with pass because i might say something i regret i don't think you should go past i think you should stand up to this and go do you know what if someone offered me that amount yeah well maybe a hundred million quid okay i'd walk away today yeah because i mean firstly that's worth that's a lot more than the i think the business would get anyway um but yeah i mean look fuck it 100 million i'd walk away probably the difficulty is you don't know do you because if somebody puts together because because i haven't ever done this exercise i don't know what that actually looks like because if you came and said hey i'll give you 20 million it's like okay well 20 in my bank is cool i've never seen that before um take off your 24 yeah whatever but 15 for the first over here it's like well in what time period would it take me to make that amount of money myself and is that feasible um and that's a question that i don't have the answer that's the gamble you take but will that do you think this business could ever dry up you uh i'm gonna say yes and no yeah and what i mean by that is do i think the industry will will stop no because it's the oldest industry in the book it will continue to be that way do i think it will pivot and change and adapt and innovate yeah of course i mean that you know with where we're at i think virtual reality ai they'll have a place like they will in every industry especially in ours because people are purchasing an experience an experience where ai and vr can aid yeah so i believe it will pivot and change yeah you know it went from physical services to webcam services to only fun services to wherever next what is next vr virtual reality i think think vr ai is already in the space ai sucks right now yeah for the space but that you can see the foundations are there okay it can chat you know can it sell content not particularly because it can't watch the content very well but there are services in there you know people are selling like chatting services and all this sort of stuff there's of course ai models you know that 900k creator that i mentioned was ai she was ai i didn't tell you that bit give me explain so it was it was a triple one stable diffusion so it's not full ai it's a real person but it's enhanced so people will use face swap and ai to make the character more interesting more brandable they might choose to make the boobs bigger they might choose to make the face younger or they might choose to just completely change it all together you know there are creators with extra boobs you know they've got two boobs that sit to the side so instead of seeing so they've got four boobs well they've got no sorry so they've got like two boobs that have a gap in the middle so instead of being what you know some people would describe as unattractive they'll use ai to plunk a third in the middle they're now the third third you know third nippled creator and they've got their social media content's got three dots on the t-shirt like they're using it to brand themselves or they're making themselves trans when they're not so they're incredibly hot and ai's giving them a bulge all the stuff in socks down there if they don't know how to use ai but people will do whatever they can to brand themselves and so ai has that utility yeah but long term it will also have utility in the fulfillment of the services i think yeah if you were to give one piece of advice to a young entrepreneur what would it be just start yeah just give it a go yeah don't worry about it you know all of the things that you're thinking about you'll probably have a more valid reason to think about them at a later date anyway all of the issues that you're scared about and all of the people's opinions that bother you, they're only going to be worse if you don't do it.

1:13:05Yeah. So go for it. Absolutely. Liam, I've really enjoyed this chat. Yeah, it's been good. Yeah. Thank you for making the effort coming down. And amazing what you've achieved in such a short space of time. It feels like you've got a real older head on your shoulders. Is Cam the same? Yeah. Cam is slightly older than me, which is why we get on. Okay. But yeah, I don't tend to get on with anybody my own age, as you can probably imagine. Yeah, mate. Good. Good luck to you. Appreciate it. wish you all the best good to have me cheers cheers Liam take care hi guys I really hope you enjoyed that as much as I did can you do us a favour and leave us a review as it massively helps us grow the show cheers guys