FOUNDER #42. £250M Property Giant Betrayed By The "Monster" He Created - John Reynolds

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2:24bring in who do you use and how do you exit what's the biggest risk you've ever taken in business each development's a risk in its own right three to four year play projects i started four years ago but now i wish i hadn't started what has that feeling like being under pressure to do it quickly because if you don't do it someone else will get it i loved it but you've been in the property game what three decades what do you know now that you wish you knew the one thing i have made a personal mistake on is have you ever fallen out with anyone over money i got some people wrong I got savaged by a household name.

2:54Do we all know him? Yeah, absolutely. And of course, I've created a monster. I've sort of armed this person with information. He built the team. Now I've got a competitor. How did you feel when someone's gone beyond your back and gone and shafted you and done a deal with them without you even knowing? I was hurt, but I was also very conscious that perhaps I was a bit naive. But I've been in the position to do something similar many times. I won't do it. What's his name?

3:23Hey guys, we've been running this podcast now for five and a half years. We've had some most amazing business guests on here. Simon Squibb, Daniel Priestley, Barry Hearn. The list just goes on and on from billionaires to people who have built brands. If you want to come on the podcast and talk about your business and sit here with me in the studio and tell your story, go check out dodgewoodall.com forward slash guest and check out the three minute video. We've also left the link below as well. John, welcome to the show. Thanks, Dodge. Very much looking forward to this one. I want to know how you end up growing a business to£250 million in the property world.

3:59Short answer, because I wanted to. I'm an opportunity creator. So my favourite thing to do is get hold of an opportunity, see how I can make it happen, connect good people together. Property development is very people-led. So I created all the opportunities property-wise from scratch. The deal's there, but it's who do you bring in? Who do you use? And how do you exit? And so tell me just like, if we rolled a little bit further back, getting into the property world, when was it when you set up your own business? How old were you? So properly, interesting question, properly setting up my own property business, 27, 28.

4:38Okay. So I've got ultimately a girlfriend that's serious. You know, Leslie, that's sort of moving towards marriage and so on. Great lady. Absolutely. And I'm commission only sales at this point. And I've really tested myself through that, which you know, that's knocking on doors. That's, yeah, running your, and hugely off referrals. And I've created a really big network of people. And it struck me that two or three of the people that I got on well with and seemed to do very well in business were property developers. And there was a lifestyle element to that. I'm not an office person. I don't want to be sat in an office.

5:10I want to be out. I want to be doing stuff. And I want to be creating the opportunity. So at that time, I had offices at AFC Bournemouth. You do? Yeah. Okay. and mutual contact Bill Buckler. Yeah, Bill. Very good mate of mine. Yeah. Lovely fellow. I know. And so I actually got involved with... I didn't know you got involved with Bill. Okay. No, I didn't think you did. He's a massive property developer as well. Yeah. Okay. So I had the chance to learn in an environment that was ultimately kind of the A to Z, if you like, and all the bits in between of property development. And I loved it. I loved the fact that, you know, you could make stuff happen and it involved knocking on doors.

5:44So my way in was initially to try and reach out to the Savills guys, the Goatsby's guys, the estate agents. It was a bit of a closed shop because the relationships were already had with them. So I had to find my own way. So I started looking at plans. I started looking at, well, actually, this has got a house on it big enough to put five on and I've got to find the access in. So that was your business model is going to find a house, being able to knock it down or to see where the access was in the garden to see we can build more houses out the back there or the side? Okay. Land assembly. Okay.

6:14Yeah, and that involved skills that come naturally to me. So I was actually, one good thing I was good at at school was English, creative writing. We'll put a letter together that gets your attention where I'm interested in buying your land, but then I'll follow it up and I'll keep following it up. That's where I got my initial wins. And of course, you only need two or three sites to then build a pipeline. And so I set up on my own and that answers your original question. Okay. What's the biggest risk you've ever taken in business? Gosh, the biggest risk. each development's a risk in its own right when I scaled up so I was doing regional development there I then took advantage of legislation that came out to convert offices to resi that came in residential okay what year was that coming?

6:552013 I interpreted it early and thought wow this comes to fruition this is awesome this is great big office buildings that are crying out for help basically owners that don't want to own them that could be a fund or an individual and 56 days So forget all the politics and the massive planning. You can actually get a stamp for planning. And there was upside... Within 56 days? 56 days. So local government and planners couldn't do anything about it. It was central government taking initiative to stimulate a slow market. Brilliant initiative. So I thought, I can scale this. And that also answers your first question.

7:30That's where the big numbers push over 250 million gross development value wise. So break that down for the listener. GDP? So gross development value. If we're doing a development of 10 houses and each one is going to sell for a million, the gross payment value is 10 million. So then you've got land assembly, the costs, you've got the build costs, and then you've ultimately got a sale at the end of it, hopefully. Which comes back to your question of risk. to get into that market which was an opportunity i could see and i wanted to be able to interpret and execute i had to come in with something a bit different so i had to come in with my own money which then was followed by an investor that was significantly wealthy to take that risk with me buying something unconditional so buying an office building taking that risk on the initial so you're saying unconditional that hasn't got planning to be turned into residential yeah okay and at the beginning of this legislation as well we were one of the first to do it so it wasn't like you know you on paper it all looked great yeah what if there is something that comes up an anomaly where it goes actually it's not quite as simple as someone disputes it in government that was a risk because the numbers were big the first sites that we were buying were like five six million pounds just for the land just for the office space office building okay and when you looked at that and go i can turn that this is an amazing business model by the way if you think about it 2013 this come about and you were 10 years young you were probably in your 40s yeah thinking late 30s late 30s thinking i need to jump on this before anyone else does honestly most yeah one of the most exciting things ever i i used the analogy of like looking into like a diamond mine yeah um or a gold mine sorry and it's like nuggets glinting yeah i wanted to grab them all and this is also probably where we're quite similar actually you're probably more sensitive but you know i i just wanted to go so i made lots of mistakes i got some people wrong i got savaged by uh you know household name couple of investors that i went to because that's my skill i can get to them well you're good with people you're good opening doors you're being good at bringing people together it's my favorite thing to do well you're very good at it as well what is your so going back then i'm really intrigued by this because there's a massive opportunity there if i saw that i'd be like i need to jump on this for anyone else jumps on this how do we do this quickly what what was the excitement bit there that you knew that you could go and buy an office block for six million quid.

9:52At that time, I'd imagine you probably couldn't afford to buy outright a six million quid. Where were you going to get the money? Were you going to a bank? Were you going straight to investors? Were you going to the bank first and then saying investors, we need to get the bank to pay for that. But then to do it all up, I need investors on board. So the first couple were local to, we're both filming in Bournemouth now, right? So the first one I did was Bournemouth and then Southampton. and I used the majority of the money that I had available and then ran out. And then I went to private individuals.

10:23The whole kind of proving concept was what was needed. Then the doors opened for funds. A hundred million was being offered from everywhere. But that's a whole, I know, which some people think would be great. That found more like a noose around my neck then because the market can change. Things can go wrong, which goes back to the risks. They'd be like a sort of a ball on a chain into a well. I have to spend that. so I kept it very fluid where when the opportunity came up and we're filming on a Monday I get sent a deal by a receiver that I've built the relationship with on a Monday and I would get a team on it of consultants and I would say we'll exchange this on Friday 6 million quid so we'll exchange on 10 or 20 % and they go no you can't do that no one does that so break this down so 7 ,6 million quid you're putting down 10 % you're putting 600 grand down to exchange quickly yeah okay Okay.

11:11What has that feeling like being under pressure to do it quickly? Because if you don't do it, someone else will get it. I loved it. Yeah. I mean, you didn't sleep. Yeah. You know, and the team fed off that as well. And then you built a team of consultants. So that's planning consultant. That's the lawyer. That's the guys ultimately assessing it from a construction point of view so that you can actually put proper numbers. It's always a jigsaw puzzle with pieces missing. Yeah. But the idea is by the time you offer and the closer you get to that exchange, you've formed enough of a picture. I love, I thrive on that.

11:40And then that risk element was real. There was always going to be an element of what if something comes up that causes a problem further down the line, but you were buying well because that site that you're buying for 6 million was going to go to market on a marketing campaign with Savills for 3 months, 6 months and be sold for 10 million. Yeah, okay. So you had to snap it out quickly. So that's right. So the value was in the buying. Yeah. And then you'll like this. if we bought a site that let's just say the building converted to 100 flats we had a huge car park and surrounding land we had extra floors that we could go on top so you had another bike we never factored that into the appraisal so they were good times so they're like cherry on the top these things absolutely little bonuses but you were working out as you were going along absolutely because you didn't know that you could build something you didn't know you could go a little bit higher we hoped we could so if you were my investor at the time and that's where the people said I'd say look Dodge I'm putting an appraisal together, phase one, of what we think, and look at the numbers we can make.

12:37But we're expecting to and hoping we can do another 60 flats here. Bloody hell. We can do another 18 on top over time. And a lot of the time we were able to. Wow. Yeah. So back to that. Amazing. That was golden times. That's extraordinary times. Tell me something that you've come across when you haven't got on well with an investor. Or what are you looking for an investor? And is there any point where you've actually clashed? That's a really good question. So I would say, I was touching on it earlier and then stopped. I mentioned household name. Met the chef on the Oxo Tower. Who's that? Not going to make, it wouldn't be fair for me to mention.

13:09Okay. Do we all know him? The brutality. Do we all know him? Yeah, absolutely. How big a household name? Household name. And I went to the visit network. So if you mentioned him now, do you think everyone would know that person? Absolutely. What's his name? Not going to tell you. But I was so pleased to have the meeting. Surname? First name. I love this about you. Middle name? and I've got a really good vibe of the fact that he gets the value of the deal. So did you go to approach himself, got this opportunity and you were like, you've got a lot deeper pockets than I have. Would you like to take a look at this?

13:40Absolutely. And I can't do it without an investor. Okay. Which is key. So my job in this instance is to put together as much information as possible. And of course, because this is new, this is innovative. And there was another part to it as well, which was that to convert that building, we could do away with what was London Space Standards at the time. So there's, and then the traditional kind of London space, there was a minimum size. Yeah. So people wouldn't make kind of rabbit hutch flats, if you like, small tiny things. And there was a traditional way of designing these apartments where they had little corridors off to a pointless communal space, if you like.

14:13So you come into the front door of a flat and then it'd be like a weird porch bit. And then you come into the main bit. If you imagine Friends, the sitcom where Chandler bowls into the main room, that's the bedroom. We did that. so by default you effectively made the living space area 20 % bigger but you made the pound per square foot you achieve of the unit 20 % less and this confused people and I'll come to that but it was really innovative and and so when I was explaining this to the investor who gets it it's incredible John what else can you tell me can I get my architect involved which is what happened and back to your point but two three days later and I'm thinking I'm sure this is going to happen.

14:50My lawyer's messaging saying, John, school's gone very quiet. I then messaged the guy that owns the building and he says, we've agreed a deal with the name of the... No. So the bloke was going to be on your back to do that? And that happened to me three times, Dodge. Same bloke? No. That's my point. So back to your point, I'm pretty scolded now and I've still got this goldmine of glinting. So that's the good thing. I know that I'm making sure I can keep finding deals. Okay. So I now... But that is your strength. I know. Yes, I agree with that. And I think where some people... but I'm just intrigued here a bit a little bit we're not going to mention his name but you'll tell me afterwards I'm sure but how did you feel when someone's going to be on your back and going to shafted you and done a deal with them without you even knowing how did you react what was the first thing you did everything I do is based on empathy we get on yeah because you know and I would not want to upset you I would not want to I wouldn't talk about you behind your back in context of anything gets back to you that's how I live yeah so yeah I was I was I was hurt but I was also very conscious that perhaps I was a bit naive and I needed to stop.

15:52Now I have since had that same feeling to a point, but it's, it's clearly part of business. So I had to make sure I protected myself better. And that's actually what I did. I actually went to someone I know really well, good friend of mine who lives in Barbados. And I said, I need someone that is in some way connected to me personally so that that doesn't happen. Because if you connect me to someone today and then I come back to you and say, mate, the guy you connected to me, it's just you'll be you'll be living furious yeah that's what i've missed i've missed that so i thought i'd been really clever stepping out and thinking so you're going to anyone you're going to someone with a pound note with deep pockets but you didn't really know that relationship but saying i've got this business model take a look but you gave them too much trust that trust they were like see you later john slip him out the way i'm going straight to the main man and taking the deal myself yeah wow you're this will annoy you um it was it was such an intense time very calm very calm of you to take it on the chin i'm i just i want i had to concentrate on building my own at that point i've got nothing i've got a couple of smaller deals i need to scale it and i got it so right with the the next investor the one that became almost like the kind of the corner cornerstone if you like and became someone that actually you know very much influenced what i do now where learning from people like a mentor and the extraordinary life stories you learn outside of business that's what happened with the subsequent uh investor and a couple of others as well so you know but the bit i was going to say is that same person that took the deal yeah i then got an opportunity to buy something that was really really good six seven months later and of course i've created a monster that that person then bought it and i didn't get that one so i've sort of armed this person with information he built the team and i've got now i've got a competitor yeah yeah that must have been hard frustrating yeah frustrating because it's going back to that 2013 there's like this diamond farm waving at you yeah and all of a sudden you've you've worked it all out gone to him he's gone and done it himself yeah what have you learned from that apart from the obvious well the people by people yeah so if I in any way um wanted to meet someone I thought you might know I'd ask you yeah I'd I'd it's not a word I use very often network but I have created and I have a great network which I can go to and ask people for advice connections I also like it when people come to me and ask for that and I value that massively.

18:11And then the other thing I've learned is that it's trust. It's, you know, when you've got it, when you trust someone, it's huge. And money does do things to people. A hundred percent. This person is not as successful as, you know, he clearly is without having, you know, done things to people that he shouldn't and that I wouldn't do. And I've been in that position as well. I've been in a position to do something similar many times. I won't do it yeah if somehow we were in competition or something and I found out that you know I could get one over you I wouldn't do it yeah I think something really nice about our relationship Troy Deeney walks in to film with me and I'm showing all those stories before he's even and you've called me I took him and said I can't speak before we've even done anything I said oh you guys should connect I love that he said I've just been listening to Dodge on the way down here and we're doing a podcast love it but that's same and I don't want to change that but you and I are very good at connecting people we're very open with our phone book we're very open with our our black book and our phone going yeah put you two together i'll set up what's that good bam i'll step away i don't want anything from it go on you two and because good things will happen it all come all comes back always comes back it's rare yeah it is rare yeah so um yeah when you're building your business and you're building up to to at your peak what year was your peak would you say So you build a pipeline with development.

19:35So 2014 was the sort of almost assembling of the team, taking offices in Chelsea, based there for 10 years, which was close to where ultimately the investors, the lawyers, you know, so that whole trend, which you know, I still do, of spending the midweek in London really started there. I've been dipping in, dipping out, but that was a sort or Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday in London. So that aggressive assembling of sites as well, almost buying one every three months. And then because they were relatively quick, so you were converting a building. So of course it needed full strip out and so on, but then you were ultimately turning them into apartments.

20:11So basically you had your business model, you had your team around you, you had your architects, you had your builders, you had your fit help guys, and then you could just turn that quicker and quicker as you were going along. That's right. And we made mistakes on some of those first projects, but I told you how much upside there was. we were buying buildings for like 25, 30 pound a square foot. You couldn't build them for that. So just give the listener an example of how cheap that is. Well, I mean, things have changed so much on a build cost, sort of pound per square foot, if you like, in today's world of 2026.

20:42But back then, you know, you could build a home for 100 pound a square foot. And that's with everything. So these days, 300. Yeah, well, you're in the middle of, yeah. Yeah. So 30 pound a square foot. 300 plus, yeah. Which included the land. Yeah, okay. Incredible. Yeah, it is incredible. So we could afford to make a few mistakes and so on. But we then ultimately had contractors that we tested and learned with. And so over the course of, to answer your question, 2017 was a realisation of wealth, if you like, that crystallised the profits of a number of those projects. From all the years before.

21:20That's right. But as a developer, I've got a number of developer mates always flipping their money onto the next one flipping the money onto the next one flipping the money onto the next one when is it when you're a developer that you go I've got to stop flipping my money just in case the world goes tits up very quickly such an insightful question so in context of founder yeah created that opportunity I'm actually proud of myself at this point you know I've achieved I'm a dad of two daughters we're taking them to Disney World in style and let's go again yeah and there's a there's a satisfaction element of I'd created this and made this happen.

21:55And, you know, there's lots of people benefiting as well. Quite a big engine of consultants that are all very grateful and pleased to be making money on the back of it all. That's when I should have stopped. That's when I stopped. I didn't, I panicked to a point, not in an actual moment, just like, what do I do next? And I didn't feel like the market was going to stay, I could, you know, in any way, what's the word, stable? Yeah, okay. The threat of Jeremy Corbyn, you know, the Grenfell Tower, and all the fallout of so many non-related things to my business, political and sort of world disasters, if you like, all then paid to, you know, I paid a sort of, I've lost my train of thought there.

22:41What we're trying to do is say 2017 when you were peaking and then what I was saying was, when's the point when a developer goes, stop flipping my money, actually flipping the next one into the next one into the next one. From your experience now, do you look back and go, the cycles we go through all the time. so you've got an 8 year 9 year 10 year cycle till the world might go belly up or something happens with a different conservative party or the Labour Party or a pandemic or a Brexit or all these things you've got to be aware of but it always seems to me what I'm trying to get at here is it always seems to me developers always flipping their money into the next deal when do you know when to not flip into the next deal well this is you've taken me right back there actually because you're on one sense I'm sort of riding high and everything feels good and you now can cookie cut.

23:31So if you think about it, the hard bit is I now know that I can just replicate that, that so many things can change. So I think one answer to that question is gut feeling and being very much close to the trends and actually talking to people about what's changing, because that's how I found the opportunity of the legislation. I then got complacent. I backed off. I was in any one way getting a team to run stuff and wasn't close to it. So when all sorts of things legislation-wise changed and came in, I wasn't match fit. And I'll never put myself in that position again. We know each other well most recently, and you often say, you seem so busy.

24:11You seem out there all the time. I think there's an overcompensating element to me. I want to know everything. I'm actually curious. I want to know if anything's going to happen because I had stuff going on that I didn't predict and didn't see. The challenge with development as well is, especially if you're coming through full planning which of course you know most of what i then did subsequently was three to four year play how much changes in that time is it a three to four year play is it yeah well from the moment of leading up to planning to go and take that massive block to actually sell the last flat yeah and like your festival okay my profit is in the last the last yeah sometimes it's a small the last property to sell but if it's if it's in a block of 100 it's it's the last 10 yeah So like our festival, it's three days we earn our money.

24:58You work 300, like I told you, for 360 two days a year to open the doors of the festival. But you earn your money on the last day. So you work 364 days of risk for millions up front to earn your money on the last day. How mad is that? I know. And I'll tell you this, I don't know where you sit with this. Obviously, you know what I do now with Extreme Life Stories, a podcast. I get little fixes all the time now. I need that. So I think where I overcompensate... People fix. because to sit through development for three and a half years, and of course it's great when you do make money out of it, it's the realisation over that last period.

25:33And then the money goes in the bank, and it's disproportionate because they're big numbers. And then that made me go again because that looks like relatively easy money. It's a huge effort all the way through, but then it comes in one big lump. Big lump. You're like, brilliant, go again. What's the biggest lump you've ever taken out of a business? So the biggest lumps came out of those first developments where the GDVs were up to sort of 35 million. So you can do the maths. And 20 % is a good margin, but we were getting a lot more than that. Could you take 10 mil out at the end of one development?

26:10So could we? I mean, we didn't. There was a certain amount of reinvestment. There was always eyes on the next deals. And also, bear in mind, that was split with an investor. So I think it's important. We have these chats about who makes what money and so on. But it was always like, and I had a business partner. So you know what I mean? If you're just breaking it down to me personally, I'm always quite careful to say, you know, money was made, lifestyle changed. But, you know, it's not like some of the people we get to talk in this capacity where they've sold a business of 100 million and it was just them.

26:42That's amazing. That's not me. When you get an investor on board, give me an example of what percentage that investor would take and what they bring into the table. apart from money? That's a great question. So to start with, I'll name him actually, Robert White. He's an Aussie guy. He was Kerry Packer's good friend, he's Jamie Packer's godfather. Billionaire. Yeah, and the guy who - Good choice, by the way. I know, but answer your question, a mentor. Someone who maybe saw a younger version of themselves in myself and Steve when we first went to them. He saw two people rather than one. They saw two people that were properly ambitious and wanted to learn.

27:22Summers. Steve Sarko. And we listened to him. So we were tested early. And I think that's really important. We knew what we wanted to do and needed to do. But then there was an element of grey hair and experience. And when he spoke, you listened. And so I've carried that trend on. An answer to your question, I won't go into the splits, but it was weighted in his favour. And actually it felt like that was absolutely the right thing to prove yourself. What we were then able to do is with building that track record, building ultimately what became a successful business and team, I could come to a different investor and agree a very different deal because they were knocking on the door wanting to get involved in the deals.

28:03They knew a number of the deals that were sort of... Because when you do a good deal, Savills, whoever you've instructed, shout about it. It's on the front page of Property Week or whatever. So we became known, which again, I was really proud of. But it was like, well, actually now how best do we stay nimble? Because that 100 million fund, that was what was quite frustrating about the business. Like you could scale, but the opportunity felt like at any one time it was a risk. So it was like, keep it nimble. Keep going with individuals. And I liked that bit. Yeah. What did he bring to the table though?

28:35I know you said that he'd be there as a sort of mentor on the top level stuff. Was he someone you could pick up the phone to and say, what are your thoughts of this? Or did you keep him included in everything that you were doing? Or was he like, John, crack on. You've got my back in. There's the money in the pot. Don't lose that money. And hopefully that money for me will double. No, so he's multifaceted. So he's interested. He would call me on a Sunday night, time difference, Australia, UK. And he would talk to me about some of the massive deals he was involved in. And then I'd be looking at what actually ours, even though they're multi-minutes, really small, right?

29:07And I'd say to him, I'm really flattered. I really value this relationship because I am learning and I'm able to chat this through. And it could be something as simple as we've got this building and we've got a huge area downstairs. What do we do with it? we make it a communal gym and build value into the whole thing do we do we make more car parking do we you could have that chat with him because he'd done that many things including a lot of property so he didn't i didn't assume that he was just money and he didn't assume that i had all the answers and there was also an element then of that's a nice partnership that i loved it i've always loved it and i've carried that on with any other conversations i've never assumed i know best in context there's certain things that might be a bit simpler but in that instance when there's an opinion when there's conversation to be had and that's what he brought and and with that he brought so many he brought stories so i think it's really important we we both love stories right you want to have someone sitting opposite you yeah it tells a good story and he would he would have stories that would be from previous experience that would be uh very much you could learn from so when money was being made he said um make sure you don't ever fall out with your business partner over money it's the ugliest thing and it will turn me off he said i've done it before i watched two guys that i backed make a load of money and then they started squabbling so i turned the tap off and that was a warning yeah but it was also it was a good warning to have i was like okay just you know keep learning keep feeding me have you ever fallen out with anyone over money uh have i fallen out with money over money falling out typically in the context of someone has taken advantage of me and then um i've let them know how i feel that i wouldn't have done that to them that's happened yeah i've not had a fight over it i've not had a i'm one to i'm one to in the examples with me i've walked away and i've gone screw you yeah i'll i'll uh i'll show you i'll you know whatever that might be that's happened to me a few times do you find that there's a pattern that's happened to you over the years that you are such a lovely fellow and you're loved by everyone and you're so open and free with information and that do you find that that's been a disadvantage at certain points in your career yeah so um there is a pattern there you know 48 now yeah got to recognize it um and i think there's there's a couple of things back to probably how i first set myself up in this chat love creating opportunity always working on something and then there's an oversharing element was giving too much information there's trusting someone too early i leave myself wide open so do i think it's going to happen again possibly but I'd say my bullshit radar.

31:44It's got better. It's much better now. The last four years, and we should cover that, was very much spent on why did I stay in property when my gut told me not to? The last four years of what, from 2017 to the pandemic? No, no. Just now. From now, reversing back the last four years. Okay, so from 2021. Yeah, going into 22. Bang on. So 22. Yeah. So just for that point there, so from 2017 you're at peak. yeah you like come a multi-millionaire wonderful 2018 19 what was that like before i want before i jump into the pamphlet in 21 before we get into that story there what was it like in 2018 2019 because what was that i found interesting is you're saying that something might take three to four years i've never really put that into context until now because you think a house builds a year or you're doing flats maybe a year year and a half 18 months but to go to jump into three or four years.

32:40That's a big leap. So it's really, you got me thinking here, because I wanted to cover the last four years. They have been so productive, so big on my self-development. The years you're talking about, I would say I was almost like on pause. I was almost sterile. I was quite scared, because you were watching what was going on with what, so you've committed to these deals. We've reinvested a load of money. So you reinvested again at your peak in 2017. We're going again. So on that 17, 18, 19, how many years were you building for there until it all stopped? Well, so we're committing to those. So in the peak of 2017, if you like, we're committing funds and energy commitments into new projects through the end of 17 into 18.

33:32So back to that fear and so on. There's all sorts of legislation changes. There's always the volatility of planning. There's the volatility of politics, which 11 housing ministers in 10 years as we sit here now, there's no consistency. And I'm fighting this. But back to that lovely little window where we had that 56 days, loads of local councils had got back control. Yeah. And this was happening whilst we were in the trenches trying to get planning. So, for example, a place we did really well in in Reading, we were literally at the mercy of um legislation that came in just before we got our stamp and it's back to the drawing board so you might have a jobs worth in the council saying hold on a minute you're not having it as easy as you had it in 2013 things are changing 2017 2018 19 yeah and oh and imagine this dodge imagine that mindset you screwed us over yeah we didn't we didn't we we were there was an opportunity so now the mindset was this is how we're going to do it now oh and i'm not good with that i'm not good with that no i know you're not and so back to your point yeah mentally um i haven't i've moved at such a pace but i have taken time to sort of reflect they were hard times yeah they also created what is this version of me now right yeah but it was death by a thousand cuts and there's a whole separate podcast of the the things that just kept chipping away mate this is the podcast I want to know.

35:03Tell me what went through, what things were chipping away and what did you see in the property world over the last, since those peak days? And what have you gone through? Have you gone through a lot of heart and pain? Have you gone through a lot of stress? Have you gone through fallouts? You must have gone through, you must have seen everything. Well, I know you've seen everything. So I want to know what you... Let me cover the fallout bit, right? So if I've gone into a deal with you, I'm going to use a good example of 44 apartments in Uxbridge. Really actually good looking brick because sometimes you have some really ugly looking office buildings.

35:37This brick converted well right by a river and short walk to the train station, Uxbridge commuting to London. That was sort of like almost a criteria that we looked for. And we bought this thing off market and we bought it well. How much? 4.6 million. But it was, it was, it would gone to market for a lot more. But the principle of this will explain quite a lot. So relatively simple conversion. I've now befriended someone who was like almost the biggest go-to seller of flats internationally. So actually we got an opportunity to sell these to investors in Dubai and all over the world. So we pre-sold all of them.

36:21So in the risk sense, you've actually de-risked. We gave them a GDV we wanted to achieve where they can take their margin out of it. So now all we've got to do is finish it, right? And there's a lot of risk in construction, we've got that bit right. So we get through construction just fine and now we want to realise the profits. And the first of the investors that came through wanting to complete, and we did actually allow some owner-occupiers, because you don't want one building just to be, because the cumulators get trashed and so on. So you've learnt all this along the way. So maybe sort of 50-50 if you like.

37:00And the surveyor came out through a company called eServe and basically said, not lending. Now, we can't sell the apartment without someone being able to get a mortgage on it. Most people aren't buying cash. They certainly weren't in going into what was 2019, into 20. So we think we've done the hard bit. The next, they have a central database. So eServe, your Halifax's, your Lloyd's, all the lenders, so they can now see there's a red mark against the bank. We've never had this before. Why? These are really nice apartments. We've done a good job. So it's my job now. This goes back to kind of, you know, I've got to try and solve all the problems all the time and chase.

37:39I'm now looking at why is this? And as we get closer and going into what became 2020, we've got buyers kicking off and we've got the agents trying to save them. We're now into interest. We never went into that interest. Finished it on time. This is money out time. It transpires that the conversions of offices elsewhere have been done so badly, such a bad job. E-Serve have had a shock because it's taken three years to learn this. Where someone sold a unit, they bought a plan and there's a pillar right the way through the middle of the living room, but no one saw it. So someone's been pulling up with it from a rental point of view, but you get my point.

38:14It's a really bad job. So that internally, there was a conversation to not lend and we didn't get told that. So I'm looking at, is it this, is it that, is it this? and then eventually so all your money's in that all my money's in thinking it's it'll be fine it's a workout and all of a sudden e-server said no they're not going to lend mortgage give mortgages to people to come and buy those flats that's right okay now I have an investor on that deal and let's just say that's you so there's no fight because I'm giving that information real time I'm speaking to this guy every day and I'm explaining what's happening I'm also explaining what I'm going to do so I ultimately get to meet the head of the Halifax from a lending point of view and I get to meet Howard is it Howard with the old big goggle glasses.

38:54I know who you mean. From the effort. Yeah, yeah. Quite similar actually. I can't remember his name and it wouldn't be fair to say. But he walked around every single apartment. Yeah. So he got keys, open up, da-da-da. He wanted, he was like, these are great. We want to be lending on these. Something's not right. And I've told the story in a way where that's when I started to unravel that it wasn't what, I didn't know what it was. It wasn't the lending criteria that came back, which was you're too close to light commercial. They said what? You're too light, too close. Too close to light commercial.

39:25Go on. So there was a beef eater and a sort of trading estate that closed. Some trading estates, you know, beep, beep, beep, reversing them. So that was where everyone was like, did what you just did with this whole confused face. I was like, what? That's when we knew something was up, but what's the real reason? Now I've got the real reason, which I've already explained. So now I've got the support of Halifax. So he says, John, I know the right guy to get out on this. I'll arrange it in the next three weeks, and we go into lockdown. Oh, mate. So you were juggling this going into lockdown. Okay.

39:54Now, if you think about my criteria, my criteria is town centre apartments. So no one wants a garden. No one wants to be, people want to be as close to their workers. What happens in lockdown? Everyone moves out of the town centre. They want a garden. They want balconies. Balconies are expensive to do and you don't really get any extra money for them. You didn't up until 2018, 19, or of course, 20. so the whole COVID lockdown side of things instantly then changed the dynamic of the buyer demographic that we had because we had so many bites of the cherry we had another side of people wanting to buy yeah so you had people upsizing if you like from students if you like and from a small flat to a bigger flat you had investors you had divorcees that didn't want to kind of see you know what I mean you had lots of just honestly the market just was like tumbleweed we had a site at the same time in Staines on the high street which sold the whole lot to ground crew pilots and so on they were all on furlough you think back to that time with the airlines people were talking about will we fly again it went into a really mad place how did you deal with that mentally?

41:04hard and here's the thing the creativity in me the creator that I am and stimulating from all of that ideas and so on I was locked down because I had to just focus on solving these problems and they weren't quick. So a week would go by and I'd just make some progress on one thing. And that goes back to this. So that mentally was really hard. And was most of your money in this? Yeah. Yeah. And importantly, you plan on the exit. So if you know you've got X amount of money coming out on the whatever day it was. Yeah, you've already planned where that's going. That's months ago. Yeah, okay. That's months ago.

41:41Plus that money, that margin's getting eaten by interest. from the banks. Now, the development were the banks good with you? They were. Yeah, apart from one, which was... What bank was that? I've never named that. Do you not? And do you know what's so frustrating? I mean, it's awful. I totally lied. Why would you not name the bank if they show up that you weren't happy enough? Because they wanted the asset. So, the development Well, they've been a nuisance to you, so they're going, if he can't pay that, we're going to take the whole lot of it. So, the answer to your question is, bear in mind at this point, I've got a good network of people I've used and people that want to work with you and lenders and so on.

42:18So why would you go with someone that in any one way has a reputation that I could be concerned about? During this time, it's so stressful, during COVID, there was some kind of beneficial scheme that was put to certain lenders. It was like a relief scheme for developers that was a really low rate of interest for a year to work out solutions. And something else that came along on another site that affected us was something called an EWS1 form. It was all to do with the external wall cladding on the back of the Grenfell Tower disaster. And anyone that knows anything about property, and whether they're a developer or they wanted to sell a flat during that time, it was a nightmare.

43:00Because all of a sudden it was like, what is it? How do I get it? And what does it mean? And for us, it was basically conforming to building regs and being signed off that stuff wasn't combustible and so on because he's uh who was it ricks roll institute childhood surveyors brought it in because they were trying to protect themselves and the lenders from any future disaster so good intent but it caused a nightmare so we had sold uh a bunch of units in another development who was the bank not going to tell him why not and then and just to be clear they're not a bank development uh funding provider it's not so just it's not like it's a barclays or okay do you know what I mean?

43:40Okay. But yeah, Dodge, property, I mean, who's the bad guy in a Hollywood movie, right? You know, it's an English developer, do you know what I mean? It's like knocking down the library, and it ripples through. A lot of the lenders are, you know, I already had an issue with that because I am a nice guy and so on. It's like, you can get treated like... Was it the actual person who was bugging you or was it actually the company behind it? Well, it leads with the principal who is ultimately... And why was he being a pain in the backside? There's an asset. So he's thinking, you know, I'll have this off him.

44:10Wow. I didn't realise they would think so. Do you know the worst bit as well? Go on. I got the email. I knew they were always hanging around saying if you can't pay it we'll take it off you but if someone's cutthroat to say I hope he doesn't pay it. We couldn't get the solution sold within that year so we have low interest through this relief thing through COVID. Like great. Well we're working this out. Of course we'll sort that. We didn't and not from the lack of trying. I mean that's that. Getting what was the EWS1 form was a nightmare. so we tip into uh what is now out of that uh relief period then the letter comes in so 21 yeah yeah um it actually tipped into 22 okay i'm on a plane with the family about to fly away on holiday when i got the email we're on the run what we're about to turn the thing off sort of thing uh saying this is what we're going to do we're going to be charging you this rate of interest a day, which was something massive.

45:04And if you can't sort this out within a month, then it's ultimately repossession of the asset. I'm about to go on holiday for 10 days. What did that do to me? Oh God, yeah. It's just timing. But yeah, when you talk about stress, when you talk about, and this is just because of how I've scaled, I've got six of these things going on. I've never talked to anyone like this because I do in a context of maybe a out of a dinner but if someone's interested but not publicly on this. So you had, were you juggling six? Yeah we had six different, and of course. At the same period 19, 21, 20, 21, 22. That's the pipeline right and they've all caught each other up now, should have come out of that one a year ago.

45:45So when was it when it triggered you were like I'm in proper trouble here? Was it when the pandemic hit? Pandemic, yeah I remember, I remember, I remember that time where everyone had their own memories of sort of going out to the park and you know going for a walk. In the garden. Yeah. Getting Uno out and playing with your kids. Because the ages of my kids was probably one thing that saved me because I was able to almost disappear into that and give them the most amazing time. We were also in, we just bought a beautiful home in the New Forest. So I've committed to that. And this is a project.

46:19So what's a fund, your fund to do up your own home at the same time? Luckily, I'd committed with funds I'd already made. Okay. But I absolutely was expecting and relying on a load of other funds to come. none of which ever came right but of course i wouldn't be doing what i'm doing now if that you know that's the case so um that first day i think i just almost went numb i i didn't know what was going to come but i just knew this is going to change everything and the british are really good at wanting or having an excuse to not buy property so if there's an election what does that mean what does that mean well we'll just wait just sit on our hands yeah just sit on our hands we're really good at that to the point where there are often times you know i lived through brexit and so on it was like what does this mean i don't know we're not buying you know and so uncertainty i mean how uncertain was covid and uh i knew then that was going to cause me did you go bust did i go bust no because um so each project set up individually right so i could have had individual limited companies did you yeah okay so i could have had one of them go bust and probably the one that would have been, the one that gave me grey hair, made me genuinely, I woke up sweating, never done that before, was the one with the plane, when I was on the plane, and got that email, and that's right.

47:40Yeah, because I had to exit, I had to. And it's horrible getting that when you're on holiday, and there's nothing you can do, and you're stomping up and down the pool, and trying to make phone calls, it's the worst time to get it, isn't it? Yeah, and I'm a present. I'm present. Yeah. I'm present with you now. I'm present. And I don't want to be the one that's like, but I had that distant look where I'm like, what do I do? What's it like being under so much stress? You know, you talk about then you're like waking up, sweating, you went grey. Just explain. I don't know if anyone out there, maybe there's listeners who have been like that.

48:11What's it like when there's so much pressure on you, you don't know how to deal with it? Well, in that moment, to use that analogy of waking up, sweating, I had to get up because I've got to remove myself from it. I've got to somehow take some control back. So that might be me having some pretty serious deep breaths. And I'm not talking about wake up in the middle of the night. It might be four in the morning, but I'm up now. And so I have naturally looked at where I benefit and thrive. I need to get outside. That could still be dark, but I'll get outside. I've got a gym at home and I have to walk to it.

48:47And so being amongst the trees, doing the things. You hear it quite a lot, but it works. It's always worked for me, even when times are good. So I'll put myself in a place where I'm like, right, where am I going to be able to focus and work this out? And then I have to compartmentalise what's in my control and what's not. What can I do? What can I do? So it's all very well saying I'm an opportunity creator and I don't like making things happen, but any one time I've had to engineer my way out of something as well. How do you become around your kids and your wife when you're under that amount of pressure?

49:19I'd be interested to see what they say, because I actually think for what I've gone through and what the thoughts, because back to that beginning part of the conversation, risk, the risk is you go bust. If you go bust, regardless of SPV, there's still come back on you personally. SPV? Specific, oh my God. Something vehicle. Yeah. I can't believe I forgot. Yeah. Everything's individually set up. I can't think of the name. I know. I can't think of the name. Go on, I know it as well. Yeah, yeah. um but there could be a house of cards element do you know i mean because you know especially if it was someone calling in uh alone and then they say well we know we want to we want to come after because there's a personal guarantee on your house as a developer yeah right there's your risk so you had a pg on your own house absolutely yeah so there's your risk so i know you've you've talked about doing that before you know what that feels like i've got i've had pgs i wouldn't recommend anyone doing it but sometimes you've got to take that gamble and risk to get a better deal in the hope that all comes it all goes to plan you know i think it's important to show that i i asked countless times especially when we built a track record up and you know i don't i don't want to do this anymore and i maybe almost a little bit of not arrogance i haven't got that but just like trying to posture i'm like i shouldn't have to do this anymore well you are and if you don't do it you won't you won't get why are you putting why were you why are you doing why are you putting personal guarantees on your property why was why was someone lending you the money said i want a PG on your property when you've got the track record?

50:47I mean, that's my point. I was like, surely we can look back on really good business relationships. They are literally risk management business, aren't they? Their answer is, well, there's plenty of uncertainties in the future. We do not lend without a PG. We've yet to find a provider that wasn't going to do that. It's just how they're set up. So in your game, it can be big risk. But if it's done correctly, it can be big rewards. But I keep looking into this game. My property developer friends of mine have gone bust, made it again, made a fortune. Something happens in the world. Selling, selling, selling, nothing's selling.

51:32Go bust again and go again. If you're 40, 50, 60, 70, if you're in your 50, 60, 70, you'd have seen it. You'd have seen this pattern. So as a property developer, are you aware of a pattern? It's a really good question. My dad, who's never taken that risk and never been an entrepreneur, so he's found it quite interesting to watch what I've done, but he's been around them. And he had a breakfast with a guy who I believe was the second biggest property owner going back to, I think, the crash in the 80s. and he asked him at breakfast because he said you know you were huge you were you know what would you have done differently so that i've sold everything four months before everything i did is what made me money everything i i did i did was was working and then ultimately when the it's so it's so affected by external events and there was no way i could weather and we we watched people around us when we were growing up that had everything yeah lost everything yeah and they were property guys so it's not like i wasn't you know around that um but what what i'd say to answer your question is i know what i now would look at i know how excited i got remember that gold goldmine analogy because i i could actually see i could see how well that would work i got excited about it and i i i haven't been able to get excited about any trend anything i've seen coming through but if anything it's so hard now you know british landlords are they seem to just been absolutely targeted by this government.

53:02A concerted effort. Whereas when we were growing up, some of the wealthiest people around were the guys that had made money through other things but then built up a portfolio of property. Well, I have no aspiration to do that now. Are you out of the property game completely? No, because of this cycle we talked about. So I still had a couple of projects I started four years ago that now I wish I hadn't started. So did you start new projects in 2022? thinking we're going to come out of this and away we go again. Completely different. Yes. Completely. And also just to keep that foot in, if you like, with what was a business that I'd stepped massively back from.

53:38But I had, so interesting. So if you think about it, the hard work bit that for some people was, I had a deal on the table, someone that would deliver it, all the consultants, everything set up. All in place. And the money. And I thought it's, I could so say no. I actually wish I could say no now. this is the hindsight bit. And I said yes to two. Both of them have gone wrong. What were they? And what year was it? So yeah, 2021. So 22 was a hard stop on all things property. So people still try and talk to me about properties to send me deals. I almost feel... But you've been in the property game, what, three decades?

54:19What do you know now that you wish you knew in 2022?

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56:02So what do I do sitting here now? Yeah, now looking back. Hindsight's a wonderful thing on property. What would you have done different? The one thing I have made a personal mistake on is feel like I've assembled the parts and then not stay involved. Okay. So if you look at what I do now, and sometimes you'll call me out and say, mate, you seem to be everywhere. So I'm right on it and I'm hands on. It's also why I love, you know, some people say, is the main thing you do now, the podcast? Yeah, because I'm in control. Love it. Yeah. Who do I ask and so on? What I did with property was this is great.

56:40And I'd almost go home to Leslie and talk about it. Got this, got that, and in three years time, it'll be, yeah. It's time next year, Rodders. Yeah, it sounds like I've done it. But I'd already done it. I've done that before. So that mistake where, you know, and I'm not ex-construction. I'm not, I'm not what you would call a property guy. I rely on other people. So I think that personally answers that question massively, you know, because I wasn't hands-on with it. I was always in the information, but it was like, actually, you know, I need to be fed that closely. Did you find that that's all you pretty much knew?

57:18And in 2022, you're going, okay, we come out of the pandemic, this is what I know. I've got to go again, but my love's not there. Did you fall out of love with it very quickly? Yeah. What year would you reckon you fell out of love with it? Honestly, it was a moment. I've got an infrared sauna at home. It was February because the fire was on in the other room. And it was a proper shake of myself. It was like, okay, it stops now. What are you good at? What do you want to do? What could make some money? But I also had quite an interesting conversation with myself about money. It was like you've lent into things, including really recently, just because you think you can make money out of it.

57:54Just spend your time now on anything that feels right. build the habits up around surrounding yourself with opportunity and then the money will come. And if you remember our chats during that time when you'd be calling me, what are you doing that for? How do you make money out of that? I don't. We're on founder. And honestly, I was a bit like, I feel like a fraud, but it felt so good because I knew I was building something. I remember when you come over and we went out for a beer and you weren't in a good place. Yes. I can't remember what year that was. 23? That was all property. No, no, it was early.

58:28So that was good stuff already starting to go on because I'd started, but I was in a full reflection mode. And I didn't take it very well that the money I thought I'd made, I'd still get back. And the money that might still come out of this would be okay. And I remember that really well with you. That's exactly what was going on. I was like, I've tanked and been decimated. The version of me sitting here now is actually, you know, I can reflect on that and go, well, actually, you know, I'm building something now and I'm working with a better version of myself. But that was in the moment. I was wounded.

59:07Yeah. How much money do you reckon you lost in the last few years? The deals that we put money into didn't get the money out of and then had to tip money into. I mean, it's not a number I'd disclose, but it's millions. Yeah. Yeah. Bloody hell. Do you know what, Dodge? I've never actually sat down and calculated. I've not wanted to. I've not gone there. I've not wanted to. I don't want to make that spreadsheet. Yeah, I'm sure. Because I'd probably be like, oh, there's that as well. There's this as well. Yeah, okay. Plugging holes and firefighting became a big part. So around the time that we met, I remember having to plug a sort of£270 ,000 hole just on a refinance where the bank go, well, our interest rates have gone up.

59:48we charge you whatever there's a valuation of 25 grand no one needed all this but it's all principal stuff and it was 270 I remember thinking it was 270 grand but you've got to tip back in the money you thought you'd earned and you were going to get more money out of it that was happening a lot and that's just happening a lot there's 270 there there 90 there does that when you're seeing that come in the bank and saying we've just tweaked that you've actually due as 270 or are you going to lose that is that coming out of your personal account to ping it across sometimes so way that I was set up again with Steve Summer's business partner is we would we would crystallise profits out of a deal and then pay the money into your own business it's up to you what you do with it then so I would obviously keep a certain amount in that business and then I'd pull stuff out personally when's the point when you say no I'm not paying that that bill you can do one you're the bank the other people all ask me I'm not paying that I've had enough I can't do it I'm not doing it not done that you've not done that no not done that but there are Why?

1:00:46Why? Well, there's pretty, but then there's consequences on it. Yeah, I was going to say, what are the consequences? I mean, the project. Losing directorship? Yeah. Which has a knock-on effect for other stuff later on. Reputation? Yeah. Does that play a big part, reputation with you? Has done with me. I mean, I can distance from, I think that was also, remember when we, going back to that person I was when we met. Yeah. And, you know, the fact that I was not feeling particularly successful, if you like. I was feeling like, you know, and I've had to have a chat with myself about what would I have done differently, what could I have done, and so much of that was out of my control.

1:01:23I've already given you the examples earlier of some of those property deals where it's like I've tried so hard to make this work, and I tried less hard to make things work just a few years earlier. Does that make sense? Fascinating. Fascinating. I know we both thrive off risk, but I think the risks involved in taking on a property deal, particularly if it's got multiple units and so on, it's probably worth sharing. So what are property developers going through right now? You know lots of property developers. How would you explain the whole property situation in the UK at the moment? So it depends on your exit.

1:02:00So if you're building to sell, you've got a market that's pretty sterile. Reasons for that, interest rates, the affordability element. So if you're selling to someone that is effectively, you know, working with a salary and so on, what can they actually afford? You know, you've got build costs, the inflation. Gone from the roof. Yeah. Supply issues. Again, going back to my own war stories, I remember when the Suez Canal got blocked. Yes. You know, we genuinely had all sorts of stuff, steel. I remember a call about steel in the morning and thinking, God, that's high. just parked that for a bit, and then called the guy back in the afternoon to agree.

1:02:44He said, mate, it's gone up 25 % since the morning. I then reflect, mistake, I then reflect on thinking, what? Calling him back in the morning, and he's gone up another 50%. He said, mate, you've got to agree it now. Then you go back to your appraisal and look at what that's doing to the numbers. All of it's taking profit away. Less dramatic now, but the same principle. A developer, back to your question, there's just, you know. Is there any money in developing as we sit today in the UK? it depends so okay let's just say that for whatever reason you are a developer and you have a client who wants a house built for them okay that's going to work you know or you're building it for yourself or you're building it as in to live in or you might be building it to try and create a really nice home because this is this is the mainstream element i don't want to put people off you're doing it in your own home now i've done it for myself and then you'd like to think it's worth more i think that still works if you're trying to do it to make money the biggest advice i give is contingency you have an appraisal you have your numbers at 30 on top more more build in contingency because you're gonna need it yeah you're gonna need it so what's it what's it what's it at the moment then for sort of like the buy to let market because that used to be very lucrative for for people out there what are you saying it is in the uk at the moment well you i think the um uh all the stuff that's stacked in the the renter rights and their favour, if you like.

1:04:08You've got no legs to stand on as the landlord. And a good landlord, I must stress, because I think British landlords in particular have got away with being very lazy over years, providing pretty poor accommodation and rinsing good money out of it. That's changed a lot, and it needed to. But whether it's the way the government are treating the landlord, or whether it's just the fact that tenants can run rings around. So if you were relying on that income, for whatever reason, there's a dispute. It could take a long time to resolve. And if you're relying on that income, you know, it's not a place that many people I know want to be around anymore.

1:04:47Renters rights, what is that? Exactly as it says. But I think what you're really asking is it seems to be getting a wider and bigger, you know, it's suiting them. So if it was ever a 50-50 or any kind of a dispute, the renter's rights now, knowledge could be 70-30 in their favour, but you as the landlord are not in a strong position. I don't think that's particularly healthy. It's not, is it? How do you get renters out of your property if they haven't paid, the way the government have set this up? So you can imagine holding a lot of units and still holding a lot of units. Until we set the management company up, quite a lot came to me and the team.

1:05:38And you might be surprised to hear this, but some of the people that, for whatever reason, seemed to be trying it on with us were like a trainee legal guy or someone who knew his facts and was just basically having it away. and it would take months months to get uh anything resolved and sometimes that would then end up being like a payment plan and all sorts of stuff you know it's stacked in the favor and that i'm out of that loop now by the way that management team is 100 set up and i'm protected from it so i'm yeah maybe two and a half three years out of date on that but i just know that that there were people that were making our lives really difficult and i'm talking like you know up to a year in arrears then court dates so they haven't paid you for a year's rent and there's nothing you can do no court dates set and then there was a mental health problem and I would never dis mental health you know but like the because you knew he was a lawyer or she you knew what they were doing how frustrating is that yeah wow you're making you're dragging up all sorts of stuff that's really frustrating for me I get it but it's lovely to hear from someone who's been in the game three decades to understand the highs and lows and your honesty of just going, this is how it was.

1:06:52This is how it is now. And this is what I've gone through. I doubt I'm inspiring anyone right now, which is not ideal. But I have so many people coming. This is honesty. I have people coming to me all the time saying, can you help me with property? Can you give me some advice? And this goes back to all the way through. And there were times when I loved it. I knew I could help and so on. I can't get excited about it without going, don't do it. What is your one bit of advice for someone wanting to get onto the ladder these days in the UK? Well, the obvious scenario is capital is a massive barrier to entry.

1:07:29So the deposit putting down? Deposit putting down, but I mean, depending on how you're structuring yourself. So then you've got construction. So you can typically fund the majority of that. But just, you know, it's obvious to say it, but you need money to do it. So how are you going to do that and how are you going to align that? And you have to have that set up ultimately. And then without saying don't do it, be very specific about where you're going to do it, how you're going to, what is your exit? What is your exit? If you're building to rent, which many people are not now, the big institutions are mostly doing that.

1:08:04They're taking over. They are. And the government seem to have lent that to be, they've lent that way. That seems to be what's been encouraged. Do you think the current government are looking to get the big conglomerates to buy out the majority of the UK housing? It feels like it. Yeah, it does, doesn't it? The small independent landlord, who at any one time, a lot of them weren't getting it right. I just wonder if that was an overreaction. Because there could have been all sorts of changes made and so on. And then this whole green energy eco home side of things. The amount of people I know that really factored in, what was it?

1:08:39Carbon zero, wasn't it? The whole thing that was around, you know, making sure this comes into fruition, what was now a year or two ago, and just sort of went away. You know, there's no certainty. There's no confidence. And going back to the 11 housing ministers in 10 years, you know, committing to being a property developer, there's big risks. There's big risks. Let's move on now to extraordinary life stories, which I know you absolutely love. I do, yeah. I feel like I'm going to breathe again. let's talk about your journey on there and what you've done there it's fantastic to see you on the podcast circuit as well who have you had on on your podcast who has been fascinating oh dodged loads of people you never never never worked a day in his life entrepreneur um i've worked plenty of days don't you mean employed yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah the whole like never worked for anyone else yeah fascinating and you can feel it um so it's invitation only and it's honestly it's a reflection of an organic journey of just like kind of wanting to meet people going back to what am i good at how do how do i want to spend my time um you're good at opening doors making people feel good and just creating a wonderful connection i have a reason to go i'm having dinner with david dean tonight yeah and some other people you know i filmed with him two weeks ago creating the premier league we can get excited about this right um and i was introduced to him by a mutual friend who's hosting the dinner tonight um so he was super interesting to name him straight away as as someone right out there stephen fry for different reasons wow what's stephen fry like openly talked about his mental health uh i openly kind of said you know why would we want to know what we're doing the next day which i really resonate with i think you're the same what are you doing in two weeks time you're probably not sure that that intimidates some people i love that i love it if you told me what i'm doing for the next six months that would make me feel uncomfortable um and the fact that he thrives on that and the fact that he genuinely seeks discomfort and i was thinking i'm having cold showers every morning i'm i'm he is no i was thinking i was reflecting so he's doing things that put him into a a place of challenge and growth deliberately but that's more for his work so he'll say yes to an acting gig um a uh something on the stage in the west end that's How intelligent is he?

1:11:06Like when you're with him, if you didn't know how intelligent he was and everyone talks about how intelligent, would you know instantly he's a very intelligent human being? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think in our capacity, what I felt my role was, was just to tee him up. So I'd sort of ask a question and he'd say, and then he'd sort of look distinctly, actually, you've got me. And he'd say something else. And you were like, oh, this is great. Just lovely. Just carry on. Let him go. Rory Sutherland. You and Rory Sutherland. Have you had him on? No. I mean, you guys would be amazing. Really? Yeah. Yeah.

1:11:35but he's another one it's just like it's like keep yuppies it's just like bop bop bop you know a bit like a three hour one if me and him are bouncing yeah what's his what's Rory Sutherland's it's all about marketing right yeah that's his thing but it's so relatable yes so he just explains and breaks it down very simply doesn't he yeah yeah fascinating sport we're a line on sport you've got the West Ham behind yeah yeah yeah so Johnny Wilkinson yeah how's Johnny how's Johnny Johnny do you know what I really liked about Johnny was when he came in we had uh he overlapped with leanne hainsby so she's a peloton fitness girl who battled in on the food cancer and uh i love that connecting people and so there was a conversation but i noticed that johnny was relatively reserved um and not that maybe she would have noticed that but i felt that and then when we sat down he he just gave himself to me and then when we stopped filming and so on i really enjoyed it so john i've i've saved myself for two days for this and I have nothing for the next two days so I could just give you my full presence and I'm exhausted I'm going to go home and I'm just going to have a walk and I'm thinking brilliant I'm thinking I've got someone else coming in after me am I doing this right because he's like I almost felt guilty but that's how I operate he is like when he's in he's in but you operate like your podcasts are wonderful podcasts but they're not deep long podcasts about someone's life they're what 40 minutes so you how do you how I'd find it very hard to do a 40 minute like even today we're on like an hour and ten at the moment I would find it very hard to do a 40 minute with you today because I want to know the emotion I want to know a bit further do you find that you have to hold back on that kind of stuff yeah but I don't necessarily know that I'm holding back I I was governed because I set up as a TV program half an hour slot it was never long enough 40 minutes is actually I am quite intense and I have certain things I want to try and achieve in my conversation without both of us are no notes people there's nothing in front of me when I'm interviewing someone but I've thought in my head about the things that I want to be able to ask and I probably don't deviate too much from that whereas you could go anywhere yeah you're doing it now yeah and it's a pleasure to watch and listen to your podcast so um it's a different way of being where I'm like actually leadership you know um success failure the juggling, the myth of balancing.

1:14:01And how do you look after yourself? And do you have that morning routine that anyone successful swears by? And what is it? And the feedback I get from a lot of people, many who you know as well, is like, I can't believe how much I've shared, how much you got out of me in 40 minutes. So that's a skill, if you like. Yeah, absolutely. But I did that. I was like that in business. I'd have seven meetings in a day and then a dinner. And you're no different. so I want to get whatever it is I want to get out of this meeting with you today so to speak but you do back to back podcasts bang bang bang bang how many have you got today I'm doing five five five like yeah I like to do one I envy you you know I like to do one and give my all into that one if I had to do two and I have done two before I don't like it no

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1:16:08I guess if you're doing 40 minutes, it's not just the 40 minutes. It's the meet and greet before. It's the chat afterwards. It's all the stuff that goes with it. It's not just, you know, I've done 40 minutes, but see you later, mate. Lovely to meet you. It's the niceties before. It's the niceties after. then you've got to go and whack yourself around the chops have a frozen water over your face right let's go again change your top properly because you're doing four or five in a day I've got lazy with that now have you just keep the same one on yeah but in case you get the old sweat pits underneath yeah yeah yeah especially in the studio yeah but fueling up is a big thing for me so I'm guilty of a Huel and Green Juice and just they're not sponsoring this podcast by the way no you get my point they could do Huel just sold out for a billion they could take 500 grand this way I used to be the co-founder of the nutritional guy, James.

1:16:53James? Yeah. He's coming on. James, what's his name? Oh, that's right. He's a good guy. Yeah. Yeah. But you get my point. Yeah. Look, I envy you because I set myself up that way from an economy of scale point of view. Okay. I've got the studio. I've got the film crew. It's cheaper for me to just do one day with everybody. Oh, I see. Because you're paying them on a day rate. You might as well bang them on. Oh, I see. You're set up. You've got a great studio. Yeah. You could film tomorrow, next day, and there's no actual cost. So you go into Covent Garden, don't you? Yeah. Well, no, I film at the Landmark Hotel now.

1:17:26You film at Landmark, do you? After our conversation, remember we were chatting and said, oh, we should start filming. I was already having, I was thinking about teeing up for you. I was already looking at options. That's a great idea. And obviously Jack, J-A-Q, got involved with them really early. With? Jack. Yes, no, who got involved with Jack? I did. Oh, so you got involved. Okay, yeah, okay, yeah. And then there was the studio opportunity and I was already working on, I was filming remote. So the first few, it started off as Property Journal and then became External Life Stories. Yeah. And so the first few episodes were filmed on location, if you like.

1:18:03And then I brought that into the JAQ studio. Yeah. And Natural Progression, that might as well. Great, great. Great to be able to wait and sit. People can have a glass of champagne or coffee while they're, I'm always potentially a little bit late. Perfect. just overrun a little bit I can't be late for my own so you base yourself at the landmark you sleep at the landmark it's my second home you base yourself yeah and I've been there a few times now and I've sat there before sat with you sat with a few others people coming in and out like Dodge what are you doing I love mate what are you doing all of a sudden like everyone just you'll love this so I'm real so I'm filming with this is about six weeks and this is Marleybone Marleybone yeah right outside so I'm filming with Denise Lewis followed by Georgia Harrison she's MBE She was Love Island contestant, millions of followers.

1:18:49Really, really interesting lady. They are my guests during a time where Dan Carter bowls over to come and have a ticket. I've met him through our mutual friend, Alan Graham. And I'm looking at him thinking, I so want to film with you. How do I make this happen? Can I fit another one in? Yeah. I mean, it didn't happen, but you get my point. It's like there are some interesting people that are there. How many episodes, how many guests have you interviewed, roughly, would you say? including property journal uh 245 nearly 250 that's a respect on there thanks man i know what i know what it takes to yeah i think we're on 360 or 370 plus the harry redknapp show i did with him maybe we've done like 380 guests it's a lot yeah it's a lot people think um you just podcast and you just press record and then leave there's so much more to it it's a full-time yeah occupation i've had to i've wanted to make it full-time occupation yeah same that's that favorite thing to do.

1:19:47It's actually my favourite thing to do. Yeah, ditto. To have quality conversations with quality people who are putting the cards on the table and saying this is what happened. Yeah. No like just putting it on the front, you know, rainbows and everything else. It's very, very refreshing. Yeah. It's, I'm interested to see how far I can go with it. And also it benefits any other business interests I've got because that organic journey of who have you got coming on next? I don't know. Yeah. I might have a list of people that would be great to film with. But I meet people. I'll meet someone tonight and I'll think, they're great.

1:20:20They're great. Yeah. I went for dinner to bring up football again. A mutual friend and he had Cliff Crown, the chairman of Brentford FC. I've never watched a game of football with Brentford playing in my life. But he is such a gentleman. They don't make them like him anymore. And then there's this whole leadership piece where the whole C-suite of that club have got a lovely culture and it's working. Right now as we sit here, they're selling business model. and what a pleasure to film and he bought his wife and he bought his daughter and they loved it they went through the sort of the cycle of the conversation and you're the first person that introduced me to jack just ask a question dot app app now sure and it's a mental health app business yeah and when i first when i had denny gray on who was the founder of it and then you introduced me to danny with steve bolton etc and we all had this conversation after us i was like this is unreal i can really see this and that's the first business i've ever invested in because you're so self-sufficient on you because everything everything we invest we invest it back into our own company it's never investing to share stock it was literally like i heard this story i was like i need to invest into this and we did a chunk two three years ago and again we did another big chunk just literally last year where what journey is jack going on at the moment because they got off to America now, aren't they, to try to conquer America.

1:21:42Yeah. So two answers to that. The journey I had with Jack was it got a piece of my heart that I did to you. You think about the journey in this conversation to where I then met Danny Gray and the mental health explosion of kind of thoughts I was having plus wanting to be deployed again. Help. I can help. I can bring investment. I can bring interesting people. I can create opportunities. You've brought in some unbelievable people to set that business up. And I don't want to lose sight of this because from what I've seen in the investment I've been involved in, and there are wonderful people out there, but the amount of doors that you've opened to Jack have been extraordinary.

1:22:25I've really enjoyed doing it. Yeah. People have come in, people have invested, people have sat on the board. Give me some examples of some big players from big industries that have come on board with Jack because they just get this whole mental health problem that's happened in the UK around the world. And the ultimate goal is to save and help a billion people. And when I heard that and I was like, I'm in. What can I do to help? But that almost sort of magnetic way of being is what... So I very rarely invest in anything outside of what is potentially my own venture, if you like. That you're in control of.

1:23:00But this was like, I'm not just going to invest capital. I'm going to put sweat equity in. I'm going to look at helping here. And I did that with Jack for a year without getting paid, which goes back to this. If you were my business manager back in the time, you're like, what are you doing? But it felt so good. I also, I saw it as a way of building the habit again, building up because to set the property stuff up and anything I should have done, you're relentless, right? Yes. So I had that same. It helped that I was actually building Extraordinary Stories at the same time. So there was a dovetail.

1:23:33One leveraging the other. So in no particular order, Steve Hewitt, who was the former CEO of Gymshot, how much would I like to film and talk with him? But I'm actually also able to say to him, hey, look, I'm involved in Jack and I'd love to have a chat with you about it. So straight after the podcast, he then gets to meet Danny and so on. He then invests. So you haven't just got - Does Steve Hewitt invest from Gymshot? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Who else has invested? So you've had Alex Packham. Alex Packham, who's now the CEO. He's wonderful, by the way. So that was, I think you've got to have... Alex Packham sold his business for$90 million.

1:24:10$110 million. $110 million. $90 million. $90 million, sorry. Yeah. And the relevance of that is it was a tech business and he's relatively young. Yes. In his 30s. He sold that to Adobe. Yeah. Worked with Adobe across San Francisco back and forward. And then you identified him to say, why don't you come and have a chat? And he ended up becoming now the CEO of Jack. That identifying bit is the bit that I now really enjoy. It's that pattern recognition. It's that whole like Dodge would get on really well on him. So it was clear that Jack needed a CEO. It was that time. And so this is where I think perhaps, you know, my involvement at the right time and how I was thinking has been able to, you know, shape where it goes.

1:24:54I've stepped back. But you've still got investment in that. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but my point is, I feel like I sort of helped assemble the Avengers in some way because you've got Simon Morris, who you've had on here. Love Simon. So, yeah. Love that bloke. He's the chairman now. Yeah. And I can't tell you how, I mean, there's a whole founder story, if you like, of just that, where I was trying to track him down. I was sending messages. He went on jury service and I don't like to pester people, but I was exchanging messages with him at 11.30 at night. You're good at it though. Yeah. In a nice way, a nice pester.

1:25:24Yes. Because you get things done. Yes. You're not a tomorrow person. You're a today person going, I'm like, I've got a contact. Bang, bang, bang. If they don't reply, here's a little follow-up. You're very good. Not many people are good at following up. And not many people are today people. There's a lot of tomorrow people. I'll deal with it tomorrow. And then it fades away. And Alex Packham was the same. He was like, I actually got distracted, moved on, and then you kept on me. He didn't need to do it. He walked away with, sold it for 90. He walked away with 30 plus million. He didn't need this.

1:25:50Didn't need this. But actually, what's interesting to people that I've interviewed and had on, the people who've sold their businesses for coping amounts of money they normally get depressed off they've sold it because they've lost their purpose of going to creating and all of a sudden I think my gut tells me that he got his purpose back to now say I'm going to grab hold of Jack I know what I'm doing I can open doors in San Francisco and around the US I'm going to take Jack from the UK for it to be blown up here which is wonderful now we're going to put it in the US because if we nail the US this company could get huge investment it could be bought out in a couple of years time Yeah, bang on.

1:26:25And what I love is, you're absolutely right, that some very successful, particularly entrepreneurs, they've exited and then lose their way. The identity crisis, if you like. I met Alex at that time and I felt it, I sensed it. I let him tell me that, and then there's a connection. So it wasn't just money. It wasn't just the CEO side of it. It wasn't just the fact that clearly he had the connections, Silicon Valley and perfect, but it was actually like, why would you do it? Why? Well, actually, I need something. And I remember that call. It was a video call. I was in Ibiza. He was in his kitchen at home.

1:26:59Yeah, yeah. No, middle of the day. I'm working. I can work from anywhere, right? But I just remember him looking. He was on his laptop and going, oh, oh, this is right up. And I get a great feeling of that. That's the jigsaw puzzle piece. I've got this fit right. What happens next? Let's see. But in terms of, I wasn't sure where, but I couldn't be happier that he then came in. Yeah, same. Especially when we're putting in chunks of investment, knowing that he's at the helm. Yeah. And also when we put in the second lot of investment, straight away it's like, are people around you putting investment?

1:27:35This is important to me. Who around you is putting investment? Who are you? How confident are you? Do you know what I mean? And that's so important. Yeah. Well, he brought friends, family. Friends and family important. When you bring friends and family for, you are responsible. It's like you would never, I would never give a tip on a horse to a mate because if you don't come in, you're going to get the blame. But essentially, he's helping people around him saying, if you do invest, I'm going to make this work. And I've got full, full belief in that human and the team around him with Dan and Danny and the others.

1:28:07Yeah. And I think, you know, I did the same. I put that sweat equity in and then brought people around me saying this is, and people were looking over my shoulder again, this looks really this looks really interesting come on board and they've invested other people have invested not just money but like actual sort of you know opportunity if you like you know and that is that that's something that I've really enjoyed being able to do is stimulate that whole like loving connecting people up and having a reason to go and meet people yeah you've seriously played your part in Jack yeah yeah because if I wouldn't be involved in it now if I hadn't known you no and the people that I've brought on board wouldn't have got involved and had to know me to know that I've got the confidence and this working and us creating something really powerful to help people around the world with their mental health yeah and it's bigger than us yeah absolutely it's bigger than us that's the bit I really liked and I probably have almost needed to have a chat with myself about being almost a little bit more selfish personally with what I've been doing and how I've been doing it.

1:29:16But there's something incredibly fulfilling, that's the word, about being able to be part of something, help shape it, that benefits so many other people. John, I've really enjoyed this conversation. Me too, mate. Yeah, really enjoyed it. Has it gone how you thought it would? I didn't have anything planned. I love that. I love that. I just like to have a wicked, really nice chat and find out the emotion and where we're going. I don't know where this is going to go, but I really appreciate your honesty. from someone who's so successful, but also gone through a lot of pain and a lot of pressure to now come out the other side and doing something you love.

1:29:49And what I've seen over you over the last three, four years is seeing how happy you are in being you and creating and opening doors and meeting loads of new people. Because as a podcast host, we meet 100, 200 new people every year. And once you do a podcast with someone, you build this amazing relationship that when you finish a podcast with someone, you carry on this amazing relationship. so I understand where you're at and you look like in a really really good place so I thank you for making the effort and I properly enjoyed this combo I've really enjoyed it loved it you're a gentleman thanks man good man John take care mate cheers hi guys I really hope you enjoyed that as much as I did can you do us a favour and leave us a review as it massively helps us grow the show cheers guys

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