#185 Seda Ambartsumian and Peter Roos from Target Global on parental leave policy in VC

0:01Hi, and welcome back to the European VC. The go-to podcast for everything European VC. If you love the show, share with your friends and join our newsletter at eu.vc. Hi everyone and welcome to this special episode of the European VC. Today you will not be hearing David's beautiful voice, but only that of mine. And for that reason, I will not spend too much time introing this, but only tell you that you're about to listen to an episode where we're going to talk about parental leave in DC. And also, of course, a lot related to parenthood in general. We're talking to Peter and Seida from the great Target Global team.

0:47And I would just kindly ask all of you to really listen to this episode and use it to reflect a bit about your own policies and your own stance on this. Target Global is one of the largest and most successful technology investment firms in Europe with more than$3 billion under management and a portfolio of well-known industry champions like Revolut, WeFox, Delivery Hero, AutoOne, and many others. We're joined by Peter Roos, COO of Target, and he joined the firm three years ago to build out their Middle East activity. Since then, Target has made several investments in the region, including Fresha, Tarabu, Gateway and help their portfolio expand to the region with companies like Rapid opening up local offices and most recently Target also opened up an official office in Abu Dhabi.

1:36Peter is an experienced operator having held senior roles at Johnson & Johnson as well as having led diversified industrial businesses in both Germany and Austria. Seda on the other hand is head of marketing and comms and she joined Target two months pregnant in January 2022. And she's responsible for ensuring that Target and his portfolio shine at every single opportunity. And what a work she does. Prior to Target, she spent 12 years advising private equity firms and hedge funds like Apollo, Pershing Square, and the brand positioning and corporate reputation. If you enjoy our content, do support us by hitting the follow button, giving us a review and following the European VC on LinkedIn.

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3:58All right, everybody. Now let's jump into the fifth post that we just spoke about and hear Seda's voice telling us exactly how it sounded when she came back from maternity leave. Today is my first day back from maternity leave. and although I rarely post anything on social media, I thought that my experience was an important one to share. Oftentimes, the financial services industry, particularly venture capital, gets a bad rap for what's perceived as a macho and male-dominated culture. Many firms are proud to vocally espouse values such as inclusivity, good work-life balance, and equality, but the numbers speak for themselves.

4:37An estimated 40 ,000 to 50 ,000 women per year lose their jobs whilst pregnant or on maternity leave. And just last year, the share of employers offering paid maternity leave beyond what is required by law fell to 35 % from 53 % in 2020. So as you can imagine, when I saw the clear blue strip turned pink in the midst of my interviews with Target Global back in 2021, emotions were mixed. When it looked like I was going to get an offer around that Christmas, I was already on my seventh week of pregnancy, and I made the decision to break the news to Target's leadership team, who were practically strangers at the time, before I even told my own mom.

5:16Given the company didn't have a maternity policy in place at the time, I interpreted it as an indication of how the news would be received. However, this was one of those times in life where I was humbled by how wrong I was. I was met with hearty congratulations and excitement about the upcoming addition to my family and was told that this was the perfect opportunity for Target to develop their own maternity policy. Peter Roos and Anke Erdelf worked tirelessly to understand what kind of support women needed during this period, culminating in a brand new maternity and paternity policy that is truly world-class and something I've been blessed to benefit from.

5:54Navigating a new job is challenging enough without your hormones going crazy all over the place and growing a little human inside of you, but the incredible and genuine support that I received throughout the past year is something that's blown me away. The experience has taught me that all working moms or moms-to-be out there deserve an employer whose values and culture are far more than perfunctory words. The harsh reality is that maternity leave is the point at which we lose women from the workforce. Career stall and gender-based inequality really kicks in. Having it all is virtually impossible but an employer who's committed to helping you at least try and is willing to take a chance on you is like finding a diamond in the rough.

6:36Special thank you to Shmuel, Yeren, Mike, Peter, Anke, Annette, Donna, Ricardo, Bowie, Lena, Pedro, Ben, and so many others for leading by example and empowering me as a mom that's raising the next generation of strong women. Very excited to be back in action and look forward to catching up with many of you over the coming weeks. I love that post, Seda, And when I saw it, I think pretty much right away, I reached out to you and said, we need to do an episode on this. I think it's a topic that we need to cover on the European VC. And it's a topic that I think many will be very interested in getting to understand more.

7:12But Seda, before we dive into everything, congrats on your little one. Thank you so much. And it's great to be on here. I was not expecting the reach out about this, but it's a topic that's very close to my heart. So I'm excited to talk about it. I'm a father of two. And I'm in. So I am blessed with a wife who is more of a family minded person than me, or at least is ready to dedicate more of her time, which our kids for sure need. So I am also definitely in a situation where I must say, I think that this is a topic that we need to talk more about. And, you know, I'm just lucky to be with someone who is viewing family life a bit differently than I am.

7:53But Zeta, when you saw that strip turn pink, what were the thoughts that went through your head? Because I'm sure I get, you know, you've got all the joy in your heart about being practical, but I can only imagine what that feels like when you're then also in the middle of, you know, job interview with probably one of your dream firms. I think Target Globe is one of the firms that everyone wants to get into, right? I mean, you know, it's a good question. And I think you're really lucky to have such a supportive partner because, you know, you're right. Like, I think in a relationship, like one partner ultimately ends up taking on a bigger chunk of the responsibility.

8:36Like if it works out 50-50, that's amazing. But unfortunately, depending on how demanding both partners' jobs are, it's not always possible. so yeah I was definitely excited I love kids it's also my second child and you know the first thing I thought was like oh that's amazing and then literally the next second I was like oh my god what am I gonna tell Target so you know maybe that's not the right reaction but like I just want to be very honest like it definitely crossed my mind and I'm sure it crosses many women's mind which is like you're trying to balance like that's amazing I'm growing my family but wait How is everyone going to take the news?

9:13And I kind of really hope we get to a point where everyone is going to be confident that no matter, like, even if you're pregnant with triplets, people are going to be like, oh, wow, amazing news. Can't wait to like meet them all. And yeah, maybe we're getting there, but I don't know if we're fully there yet. Triplets always, that scares anyone, I think. Peter, do you want to come in for a comment on this? Yeah, look, I think, I mean, first of all, it is very rewarding. and then Seda had a pre-discussion, obviously, before we sat down here with you guys. And thanks for having us. It's really, I really appreciate it.

9:45So look, I think hearing or reading a post like the one of Seda is actually can be the most rewarding thing of an employer because we all have a small part to play. And I think if we can, as an employer, do and contribute a small part to make family life better and make ourselves a more modern and attractive employer for women that can combine career and can also have children, that is something that I find personally extremely rewarding to be honest. Now I have a question and it goes to both of you because you saw Seda that there's a lack of a maternity policy here so that's probably a pretty clear sign of how the partnership will receive it.

10:26I think that's probably the situation for if not most then at least a lot of the firms in Europe that there's not a policy in place. Some of it might be connected to their size and them not being at a professionalization level where they've gotten to that point yet. Renter in Europe isn't that old after all, and many shops are three-person and a dog shops. But still, in the absence of having a policy, I'd be curious to hear your take, both of you. How should VCs think about this? What can they do if they haven't done a policy yet? Or is your take, just get that policy done. It's not that much work.

11:06Setting a bit the context, I think it is also important to understand where in Europe you are, because the law is very different. And you will have a few jurisdictions where simply, you know, talking about Austria, my native country, or Germany, or even France, where, you know, basically the law provides already a relatively generous maternity policy. And I think where there you need to step in is probably a bit more on the parental leave side where you need to say, what options can I give to the father to complement the legal situation? But I think if you then look at other jurisdictions, such as the UK, many other countries in Europe, the situation is a bit different.

11:41And what was really driving us, I mean, we started in Berlin. So, you know, traditionally, our team was covered pretty well by law. And I think, you know, if this is the jurisdiction that we operate in, maybe, you know, there's less of an urgency in developing parental leave policy. But I think for us, it was really like that we've reached a certain size and we've reached the coverage during certain jurisdictions. And one thing that was very important to us as an international employer was also to have a certain standard established, kind of a minimum threshold. And what was important for us was that we basically step in as an employer where we feel the law doesn't cover enough.

12:19And the idea was in the end, when SETA joined and we said we have more team members for who this became relevant, we started to have a discussion about making sure that we as an employer support a guaranteed minimum standard and this is how our policy operates we step in where we feel the law is not covering sufficiently for making sure that you can successfully combine family life and professional life and i think you mentioned something important there which is also the manage management's stance towards you know family in general and i'd love to ask you a bit about that because that of course is you know we're we're all struggling in the day-to-day to make sure that we're giving everyone the room that they should to be humans as well as employees.

13:03And I'd love to ask you both, how do you think about that? How do you deal with it at Target and make sure that it's more than just a policy? I think the policy is just the beginning, or maybe it's differently. Maybe it's a chicken or egg topic. Maybe it's a mindset topic, right? And I'd love to also ask Seda to kind of chip in here a bit. I think what is important is, I mean, having the policy is one thing, but then living it is another thing. What you will often see is You have, in theory, a parental policy, but fathers are being frowned upon actually taking time off. Or you have a situation where there is a policy, but it doesn't cover all aspects, and then there's no flexibility.

13:37I think what is, for us, the target is much bigger and what stands above the whole thing is the spirit and the commitment of the firm to say, we want to be an employer where women and men can combine family life and professional success. And I think this spirit and flexibility is something that needs to come from the very top of the leadership and needs to be lived and demonstrated every way. So I think it is much more important than just having a policy. I have to be honest, like it's a very personal decision whether people have families or not. But I have to be like very reassured by the fact that when I met these guys, they all had at least two kids.

14:16Some had three kids. like and so I had to believe that on some level they wanted to have a family because you can have one accident but three seems like a lot you know so I just assumed it meant yeah they you know they're committed to building their own families and they understand that like it takes two to tangle right so if they're building their own families and building their careers the women should be able to do the same thing and I was reassured by the fact that they really put their actions where their words were. They weren't just saying, yeah, we really care about family. Great that you're doing this.

14:50They were also doing it. And so it made it easier and it made it seem more possible. I'm curious because I'm trying to think about this in terms of Target being a larger firm and definitely some funds being smaller. Have you, and I'm sure that both of you, given your work on and this as well, have spoken to many that are smaller firms, but are thinking about this. And what you always hear from smaller firms is, well, you can't really lose someone. And then they use that for all kinds of apologies for not being progressive. Do you ever hear that in the market? Do you hear anyone saying that? And how do you respond to it?

15:29First of all, I think it does make a difference for people. And you see that and it actually pays a dividend. And so apart from the fact that I mentioned when we started our conversation, that it is personally extremely rewarding and heartwarming to actually hear or read the post like I said, I think we recently actually had an employee that had an offer from a competing firm and he stayed because he said, you guys have a parental leave policy. He's an expecting father. So I would kind of call out to people to say, apart from the fact that I think it's more than just having a policy. And if we're honest, you know, doing the policy doesn't like it's not something that you cannot do.

16:02It's, I think, something you can make a priority. And I think it is worth making it a priority, not only because it's the kind of set of values that you want to demonstrate to your employees, but it can actually be dividends like in the case that I just described. So I think we all choose what we do every day and where we spend our time on. And maybe this is a topic that is sometimes underestimated, or maybe for some firms, it's not in their values. But I do believe that there is not only almost an obligation as an employer to kind of support this change in society. but I think it is also, it can actually also pay off and it can be time and money well spent.

16:36So in our research for this episode, we came across Carolina Kung's article from Frontline and it was purely on maternity leave and what she focused on was really trying to figure out how to set up a framework for firms to think about how to develop the mat leave policy. And we'll of course put this in the show notes as well as also your own considerations in that connection because I think it's incredibly important. So anyone listening and wanting to hear more about this, go check out on EUVC when we launch the episode. But in the framework, she states that the most important points to consider are time at full pay.

17:14So weeks paid versus weeks unpaid. Time at statutory minimum, meaning how much salary you're going to receive in this period. Time unpaid, holidays, do you accrue them or not. bonus eligibility, pension and carry and maternity leave slash paternity leave here. So how much do you get if you're a mother versus how much do you get if you're a father? I'm curious, is that framework missing anything? And how did you think about these individual elements? But maybe let's start in the beginning and say your grand scheme of considerations here. How do you think about it when you see this? I think that there's a lot of important boxes that are being ticked here.

17:51But again, I think it is very much about the spirit. than before we actually talked about the hard facts and what we want to do and what we're going to do in terms of compensation. I mean, apart from the fact that we actually did a lot of research on what is policy in other firms, what is best practice, what is the difference in different countries, what is the minimum that is guaranteed by law. But apart from that, we thought, what kind of organization do we want to be? And I think here, the point is, we first of all wanted to make it very clear, and that goes to a lot of the points that you said, a mother or a father should not be punished at work for having a child.

18:26I think that is something that is very important. I think we all know, being a father myself, and I think Sela can testify to that, it's a hell of a lot of work. So if anything, I think your employer should, as far as possible, make it easier for you and not harder. So, you know, for us, like breaking care investing or, you know, taking away people's bonus, which kind of may make them feel rushed. they need to come back to work or cutting their salary was something that was kind of off the table. But for us, even more important was like, it is sometimes the small things that are potentially not even in the policy, right?

18:59And they are maybe missing here. It is allowing a father to take his wife to an appointment with a doctor, right? Which is something that is maybe a small thing for a firm to do, right? The guy is out for two hours, and it's usually people that work beyond office hours. And, you know, for people, it can be a big thing. Or, you know, sometimes something that is often not talked about very openly in society you know things don't go so well so what if there is a miscarriage is there a grievance leave or can people go to you know antenatal classes so for us it was really like first the spirit then the policy and i think there's a lot of things that we've put into the policy that are not necessarily related to what you mentioned i mean these things obviously need to be ticked but there's a lot of other things and And I'd love to hear, Heather, how you found that helpful.

19:44But for instance, we've introduced a mom body program, which effectively one mom that has actually gone through this experience in Target Global is kind of the body of another mom kind of advising her. We've also taken a structured onboarding and offboarding process so people get up to speed and they can hand over things when they leave for maternity opportunity. We've also done something like a program where people have regular check-ins with the firm so that they don't feel that they're left out. I mean, this is a very fast paced industry and we felt that it was good that actually we have regular check-ins and colleagues take people up to speed.

20:17You know, it's sometimes a phone call or it can be something where someone comes to the office for a quick coffee, maybe even with a child. So it is really these small details that are potentially not covered by the framework that you mentioned that I hope that makes our policy a bit different and makes it more human and more flexible. I mean, like also just touching upon what you said earlier, like about small firms using the size of a firm as a reason to not invest in a policy. I mean, I think as we've all discovered in our careers, people think they're irreplaceable until they're not. And, you know, I think if a team is willing to put in the effort to like close the gaps and say like, you know, please enjoy this time off.

20:59We'll fill in on this. It's not part of our job, but we're all in this together. Like that sense of camaraderie can only come from culture. So, yeah, like you can write down as many things as you want, but you actually need people to follow through and be like, what can I do to make sure that your maternity leave is as smooth as possible? Like, what can I do so that you're as great of a husband as you can be to your partner when they have a baby? Yeah, like I really felt that from this team. And I didn't expect to, I have to be honest, because like the four founders originally were all male. Now, like the leadership team is very mixed.

21:35We have seven partners total, I think, and two are female. We've just made two partners female. And I love the direction that we're growing in as a firm. I thought there would be a male-centric attitude, which is like work first, family second. And I was happy to discover the opposite. I'd love to ask about that work first, family second part, because it's something that I often find myself talking to people about, which is if you're in venture, you pretty much often live and breathe venture. And the way I put it is, it's not work first and family second. It's just that the two are so intermixed.

22:13And I think that you've also spoken a lot about that here, that it's about giving that flexibility to say, well, if I need to go to ballet class with my daughter during work hours, it's not necessarily a problem, really, because we all know that I'm working hard in the evening. So if I'm away three hours in the middle of the day, that's not what we care about. What we care about is the deliverables and whether your head is in the game and everything. I'd love to hear your take on that and how you talk about that as a leadership team in Target. I think this is a very important point that you're making.

22:45And I think there needs to be a common understanding that there is not a stigma in terms of leaving early, right? There needs to be enough trust and culture in the team that everyone understands that they are hardworking, right? I think there is no one that has a concern in our office that people are not hardworking. But I think in order to create this culture, and I think we all know culture eats a strategy for breakfast or policy maybe in this case. I think the reality is that you need to live and brief it every day and people need to see it. So I think it is also our job as leadership of the organization to do these kinds of things, because then people feel it is actually okay to do something that is very important for me.

23:22And I think what I think makes target for me and maybe since I joined the very special place is that, of course, we expect the most from our people, but I think we also give them good sense of autonomy and freedom. And I think this is the spirit that exactly what you mentioned in terms of what counts as the deliverables and not sitting in the office, right? And I think if you treat people as mature human beings, usually they act like mature human beings. And I think this is what you see, right? So if you give them freedom, and I mean, we all work at a certain level, then people will not abuse it.

23:54And I think, again, it is a mix of demonstrating and walking the talk every day. And I think this is the most important thing because I would argue coming back to your earlier point, just having a policy, which is a piece of paper, is not going to cut it. It is much more about the culture that embraces this policy than the policy itself. Could I ask you, Peter, just to give us the top line info on the company policy that you have? Because I think it's very interesting. And we'll put this, of course, in the show notes as well. But I think it's super important that people, you know, they hear us, you know, espousing all these great values.

24:26But what does that mean when it comes down to that piece of paper that we're quick to say isn't that important after all? But, you know, I think it's worthwhile just stating for everyone to hear. I think the underlying understanding is that every expecting mother has five months of fully paid maternity leave. And I think, again, the way this operates is there are some countries where it's fully paid by the government. And then there are some countries where, for instance, in the UK, where like after three months, the government pay decreases. And then we step in and basically cover the difference.