E387 | Mike Reiner (432 Legacy), Fred Destin (Stride) & Rupda: Founder-VC dynamics & deep personal work impact on our relationships

33:26I think NEVC is daily in a situation where it would definitely be better if this individual was more grounded. Whereas you can definitely argue that the first three years of a founder's experience, it's head on. You don't necessarily want a lot of reflections and so on. I can follow that a lot. But my provocative question to you, Fred, is I think there's a lot of VCs that would look at you and say, I don't want that. Fred had exactly what I wanted. One of Europe's most successful funds, everyone's talking about it. And then the motherfucker goes out and says, I don't know if I want to do fund three.

34:08Now I'm going to go in a cave and I'm going to find a nihilistic version of life and go through all this. I don't want that. Fuck that. Fred, tell me if you want to go down this personal route and explain a bit, why is it that it's actually a good thing that you did this? Well, so let me separate me and the work. if you're a venture capitalist, you need to make decisions in conditions of uncertainty. You need to work with often complex individuals and teams in chaotic situations that are fast evolving. You're constantly dealing with too many things to do, overwhelm, clutching in straws, kind of endless treadmill we're on.

34:58And so the nature of your work is deep knowledge work in a highly chaotic, fast-moving environment. And then you have to do this with other human beings with whom you're having somewhat complicated strategy discussions every Monday morning, which is called Investment Committee. So as a venture capitalist, I am convinced that the work I've done in the last years has made me a better decision maker, a better listener, quieter in my head, being able to envisage the world in a quiet way, being able to better connect with founders in the moment they get on the phone, etc. So if you're purely talking about the benefits of skill set, I'm convinced that this stuff is transformationally good as an investor, given the unique nature of our work.

35:45I really do not see any downside. that now for me i'm 52 i'm 25 years in the industry i know the game like the back of my hand you know and the question then becomes do i keep playing the same game because it's lucrative i know how to do it it gives you prestige or whatever you know it gives you some form of influence or do you go play a different game and my personal journey is more influenced by Arthur Brooks and people like that who are like, hey, what do you do with the second half of your life? And what's the nature of your contribution? Is it the best nature of my contribution to raise another fund?

36:26Possibly, maybe it would be in human potential, for example, or it may be that you go back out there and you say, hey, why don't we fix this venture product to make it better for everybody. And I don't know what that looks like yet, but it becomes a question of A, my contribution, and B, my journey. And by the way, also having the humility to realize that at some point, some 30-year-old is going to kick your ass on pure CPU, focus, capacity to work, inspiration, et cetera, because that's the nature of the thing. And I'm okay with that. I'm not attached to being the best, blah, blah, blah. I mean, this comparison is the thief of joy statement is incredibly true.

37:13So then you get to that place where like, well, I don't really mind what narrative you're attaching to me because I don't even mind what narrative I'm attaching to myself. Like I'm not defined by the stories that I tell myself or that you tell about me or anything. So you get to this point of identity being something that you can use when needed, but kind of put to the side and go, you know, I'm just a biped who is a grain in the sea of time. And I will make a very brief appearance. I will have no legacy. And I'm, you know, supernovas don't give a shit if the earth disappears, that kind of vibe, right?

37:50So you kind of get to a place where you're like, hey, this is an amazing journey. Just being this thinking human on two feet who can interact with things around him or her. But also, we're just a fucking blip, right? So just relax a little bit. Whatever path you take in your life is okay. Life is like a flow game. Go with the flow. And then there are a thousand paths that are okay. and the circumstances are as they are. It doesn't mean you don't have agency at all. You have agency, but just relax. Life will unfold and kind of flow with it. And it's a lot more fun to be that way than to try and fucking try and determine the outcome all the time.

38:37So that's the short answer to your question. But I think if I was a young VC and somebody told me, I can develop capacities of presence, peace, equanimity, peace of mind, freedom to see the world as it is, freedom from my biases, capacity to connect emotionally, intellectually and somatically to others, etc. I'll be like, yes, please. These are the skills that we actually need in our job. I always keep thinking, I want to see every founder turn VC and I want to see every VC turn LP. Because I think that when you reach the OG level as a founder, you have so much to bring to other founders. Same thing when you reach the OG level of VC, you have so much to bring to other VCs.

39:26and use that whatever the structure that you might do in the future, Fred, I'm always dreaming that you'd have an OG VC fund-to-fund, whereas all we do is just help the best VCs, upcoming VCs, build incredible firms and become much better than they could be without the experiences. That's a timing question, and I think that that would be beautiful. Rupa, I want to ask you about timing. What is the right time for people to start this work? It depends in which zone I would respond to in this, because there's one area I can go into, which is any time can be the right time. And then there's the other area where we can go into this, where we can say that, you know, we go somatically and we say, you know, if the body is, you know, holding you back in some way and you're holding a lot in your body because, you know, it's talking to you and you feel exhausted, collapsed, So you wake up and you're just like pushing yourself or you feel numb or no energy or tension and so on and so on.

40:38Then I would be very curious as to what the hell's going on. And something is not incongruency. And if I'm pushing myself and it's not flowing, then yeah, I would be curious about that. At my age, I have to say that because of this kind of work, I have energy. I don't need coffee anymore. I don't need caffeine. I don't need things to stimulate me to have my energy to motivate me. I'm motivated by now things that have kind of moved me from the inside. And they don't seem as appealing in the mainstream world because, you know, they don't sell because it's something you already innately have. And it might even seem boring to some people.

41:25I would say if you feel a disconnection, you feel separate, if you feel like you're not sure where you belong and you feel this kind of isolation or loneliness or depression, I would be questioning how you want to proceed in life. If it's a feeling or a sensation and it's not incongruency, I just feel such a great opportunity to explore what is that? What is that? And do I want to continue in such a way? Because whatever you do for a living, no matter what, wouldn't it be beautiful if you could find a deeper connection with yourself and feel through that connection with yourself that you're connected to all and everything in life?

42:11that you're not separate, which I believe is the biggest lie in the world, by the way. And I also believe a lot of marketing is built on creating that image, you know, that separates us. So the deeper truths are your own journey. But for some people, of course, you know, it might not be so clear that they need that until, you know, depression hits them in the face or, you know, a body, a body, you know, breakdown hits them in the face. And then they go, fuck, my life is not in accordance to what is going on. And sometimes people need a breakdown to have a breakthrough, you know, and then they go, okay, now is the time, which is also okay.

42:55You know, and if you get it, then you get it then. And if you get it right, when, you know, a partner saying, you know what, I'm not happy in this relationship, I feel lonely in this relationship. We've not connected in years. Or you get it when, you know, you somehow can't meet your kids, you don't have time with your children or whatever. There's different points in our lives that we get signals. So I think it's important, especially in the Western culture, Andreas, we are at a completely different rhythm mentally. We're like Ferrari minds, you know, and we're kind of disconnected and disassociated from, you know, our inner being and slowing down and being present.

43:35And if you go back to the natural world, I'm living in Australia part-time, you see the indigenous people there or, you know, you see it in South America, you see it in parts of Asia and Africa. They're just connected to land, connected to nature, and you see a completely different way of being. and we lost that in our sadly in our cultural western style and we also lost that coming together and not isolating and being together and sharing together, I'm not alone in this which is one of the biggest things that comes into my work people feeling isolated that nobody gets them, that they don't know how to get support, they don't know where they belong and they don't feel seen or loved or hurt.

44:25It's a big wound and it doesn't matter how big you are and how high up in a company you are. And, you know, we all carry that wounding. So I think the timing really is that recognition in yourself before hopefully a car crash, you know. You know, I think I can only speak for men, But men are typically so lonely and have absolutely nobody to talk to about whether it's shame or anger or their sexual life or their porn addiction or whatever it is, or they have nobody to talk to. And the moment you open it up, again, I'm just looking for men because I ran a men's circle for a while. The moment you open it up, you realize that they are in this provider role, that they feel stuck in this performance role, and that they just are exhausted.

45:25So they're in their role definition kind of stuck as much as women are stuck in their role definition and nobody's talking to each other. So the reason why I bring this up is one of the beauties of this work with Rubda and the deep dive work is you do it as a group. And the power, again, is the power of the we. We see a young woman who's expressing anger at her father, and I'm standing there in the constellation representing the father. And I'm going through the same set of emotions she's going through in a different way. and we are collectively understanding each other in a much deeper level, you know, in the brain, in the body, in the heart.

46:09And we are, you know, giving and receiving are the same thing. As you support someone going through a process, you realize that you're receiving as much as you're perceived to be giving. So this power of the collective is so incredible. And then you end your four days of work and you're like, wow, I don't need to pretend to be a certain way. I don't need to do anything. People just appreciate being in my company without me needing to do anything at all. I could just be here and other human beings appreciate being with me. And all I need to do is show up. Like I have value by virtue of just existing and spending a second looking at another person.

46:54You know, there's nothing for me to do. And I mean, that gift, honestly, yeah, whatever productivity benefits we're hoping for the work. I mean, the gift of just being there, being you and not having to do anything, not having to need a purpose and meaning and a mission, etc. And just like being with other humans and going, fuck yeah, we're alive in this together. We can see each other, hold each other, connect with each other. And like, thank you. What Fred just said, the key element in this also is the understanding that you're not alone. Because the rational thought is that we are alone in this.

47:35Whatever problems we have, which may be relationship-based, which may be around growing the company, around raising money to survive, it doesn't matter. Even much more unique problems. And then you're sitting in a circle, exactly to Fred's point. and not only is every single experience touching you, but also you recognize yourself in almost every single sharing. And that gives you something unique because it makes what we may perceive as a suffering or aloneness much more universal. We're all in this together. And that is such a beautiful feeling, which on top of it, and what Fred already said, also leads to this incredible love you feel for the others in the group.

48:17It was incredible how everyone at the end said, I feel more love for these people I have just met four days ago than some of my best friends, which is insane, right? The container this creates. And that is truly unique. I actually thought it's funny how we all. So if even you go on this type of retreat without the ambition to change anything in your life, or you're just doing it for the experience. I actually think that kind of like you might go to India to see Taj Mahal and I don't know what, and you come home and you're filled up with energy because you saw all these beautiful buildings and nature and stuff.

48:56I honestly would say, even without the impact it's had on my life afterwards, seeing the beauty of human beings at full exhibition here at the retreat was the most beautiful thing I've seen in my life, I think. Like I've seen the wall, the Great Wall of China and so on. Like that did not move me in any way as much as it did seeing the beauty of the different people in this group. And even if you don't want to do the work, even if you're just going there as a tourist to experience human beauty, I actually think it's worth the time and the money for anyone that would want to go. I want to ask a very different question.

49:41Bring it home to our small venture industry again. there's a lot of VCs or not a lot, but more VCs that have started to have coaching programs as part of their investment, you know, offering to founders. Some of them do it as part of a ticket, meaning they earmark 50K or whatever for a coach, or some of them have their own internal person that does the work. What is your take? And Mike, I'll let you go first on this one, because I know it's part of your firm's belief as well. And then after that, we can have a bit of discussion on whether this type of program makes sense, what's important when you design them, those things.

50:26I feel a lot of people use coaching, but actually mean mentoring. And there's a big difference, you know, because it's one thing to have very experienced people advise others, which I would call mentoring or advisory. Coaching is something different, right? coaching is primarily around asking questions. And it's people who've really made this a profession to understand what questions to ask and how to engage in that dynamic to let a person grow and find out things themselves via different techniques. And I think that's a really important distinction in the beginning because a lot of people talk about coaching or a coaching program, Andreas, to your point, actually have more of a mentoring program, have ex-founders that are helping then the portfolio companies with growth and go specifically into different areas like growth marketing etc that's not really coaching right that's advising and i think that's important distinguishing yeah factor to to start with when it comes to the program itself and how to structure it i actually don't have a strong opinion you know there's all kinds of different views um in terms of many coaches will say it's important to let the founders pay them themselves because you know it's important to put in the money to have that commitment.

51:44I don't really think, personally, I just don't think it matters as much in how you structure it in terms of does a VC pay fully or does a founder pay fully, is it a blend or not? What I do think matters a lot is the matchmaking. I think that is key. So every person is different and every person is also triggered in a different way so that matchmaking is the most important, I feel, in the code. and coachee dynamic and there it's a combination of style and the particular chapter the founder goes through where particular coach may be best but also just a personal rapport you know you can have this perfect match in your head and thinking hey whatever let's say fred would be an amazing match for john but the reality is that if in a call for whatever reason ideally face to face it doesn't vibe you know the energy is important as well so the matchmaking i think is the most crucial element here to to get right yeah look i i love coaching i think it's important to separate there are many different types of coaching so the so-called horizontal schools are about skills development how do i develop laterally as a leader within specific it's very much what coaching you How do I do my work?

53:08Integral is one of these schools that is in vertical coaching. So it's the development of personality and consciousness across sort of levels of consciousness. If you want to take the Ken Wilber view of the world, that is a very different type of work, has much more to do with the I, how do I show up? And the we, how do I interact with others? And coaches then have a lot of methodologies and a lot of frameworks and maybe mix all of this stuff up so some people do lateral and vertical together. It is about the quality of the coachee. What I would observe is, you know, the teacher rises when the demand for teaching is there.

53:46So do we have too many coaches? Probably. Are a lot of coaches people who were in transition and said, I'm going to do coaching without necessarily thinking about whether that's their vocation? Probably. I think we are in sort of an interesting time where there's seemingly a code for absolutely everything you ever wanted to do everywhere. Or that people, like I would never present myself as a teacher because I don't feel that I've earned that moniker. I'm not even sure I'd present myself as a coach because I think there is something about learning the craft, like everything that's important. So yes, coaching, amazing.

54:28As usual with these integrated services from VCs, is can you deliver the right coaching to the right person at the right level? So back to Mike's matching point. So I take all of these things with a pinch of salt, which is are they part of positioning and perceived value proposition? And can you really deliver on that? Versus here somebody is going to be transformational, either horizontally in terms of the skill set or vertically in terms of how you present as a leader. are so like most things that come out of vcs treat with a little bit of suspicion and a little bit of goodwill and kind of go figure it out you know to to add here also andreas to your question i think there's a big big difference between focusing on just the business and the person because the reality is if you're building a business and you're going through divorce and you do not address the divorce as an example, it's a blocker for the business as well.

55:29So a holistic approach means you have to address whatever is a life currently for the person because it has a direct impact on all the other fields. And that's crucial. And Rube also mentioned the somatic part. There's so many different elements here that can be blockers for a person at any given point that need to be addressed. And if we have a singular focus on just one area, in the case of VC and the startup growth and how to grow the fastest you neglect others and and i think that's quite crucial there's a little secret about all this shit everything goes back to presence eventually because if you say i'm not leading my company effectively and i don't feel like my team is with me now so that would be what you would call a presenting issue then you go one level down and you go well why is that well because i'm kind of angry and i'm overly directive etc It's like, well, why is that?

56:23Well, how do you show up in the meetings? Well, do you listen? Are you really present to the quality of what's being thrown at you? And then you end up going back to presence. Even if you want to be a strong leader, are you present to the emotional response of the people in front of you? So it's funny how everything at the end of the day goes back to presence. What's presence? It's the same as breath as an object in meditation. meditation is the same as meditation itself actually so when we say the breath you know this autonomic thing we do and then you kind of go like oh my breath is here okay so i'm present to my breathing then you can let go of the breath you don't need an object you're just present everything goes back to that that's what is freaking meditation teachers when they say when you brush brush your teeth only brush your teeth and you go what are you talking about they're talking about the right thing are you present to your breath your body your thinking your emotions emotions of the person in front of you and from there can you be the leader that you want to be so it's it's like whatever whatever wrapping there is around it we always go back to the same thing it's just a question of what language you use to guide people back to that you know i think it's like it's always it's always about presence at some level maybe this is a beautiful segue to ask you rup to talk a bit about the importance of the body because that is you said it early as well everything is intellectual with us in the west uh not a lot is is in the body and in the heart anymore maybe you can talk a bit about the importance of this how you work with it what you see as the steps people can take, so on.

58:14Why is it that there's this fixation, this obsession with the body and the breath and the need-to-do-yoga stuff with this weird crowd in hippie clothes? I want to say something a little bit controversial to that just to piss off a few listeners because why not? I hope I was a bit provocative as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was good. because there are people who do extreme sports and they have to do 100 push-ups a day and they have to go out and do the gym like crazy and they have to do their yoga as well. But it doesn't necessarily mean that they're meeting themselves. And in fact, the yoga community, I used to be with actually a yoga teacher who runs one of the biggest yoga communities in the Netherlands.

59:07and they can do bypassing, a lot of bypassing in that, you know, because of, and it's very connected to a very ancient philosophy in India around how they do feelings, yeah. And what we work with in the deep dive, and, you know, it's not isolated to the deep dive, it just happens to be one of the areas that I'm very passionate about in the work, which is through the body and through feelings, through the intelligence of the heart, which I believe has an acute intelligence, which I find to be the biggest place of wisdom and, you know, signaling, you know, and resonance and connection. And also the intelligence of the body, which never lies.

59:51So often when, good example, actually, we take our experience together, all of us, when we were in Austria together. them and if I looked at some of the bodies coming in how tense they were how high up the shoulders were and you know and how people were tapping their the restlessness in their feet and their body and you know the shifting in the chairs and the constant eye movements and the restlessness in their hands and you know and not really being able to be still and then when we started to work somatically through the body and releasing some of the tension we have and how we did that of course is also through feelings uncomfortable feelings maybe feelings are like the analogy that fred said the ones that we keep in a box under the bed and they're still there you're still sleeping on them you're still holding them in stored and and then when we are able to work through the body with our feelings a release can happen but i can't we can't do it through, you know, sort of intellectualizing it.

1:00:55If I ask you, what is freedom? And you give me a concept of freedom. It's very different than if you feel an embodied experience of freedom, you know, that expanded state. Same for if I ask you, what is connection? You can give me, you know, an intellectual response. But if you are holding someone and they're holding you, you have a direct experience of what connection is. So I saw the value in that very early in my life, my childhood. I don't want to go into my trauma story, but I saw that then the need for that in the nonverbal, how important that was, which is a lot of, you know, allowing space for what I feel and also to work somatically.

1:01:39And I want to just add a piece to what Fred said. He indicated it already, but I want to just expand on it a bit because it's important for those listening about presence. is that the more that you can be present with your own feelings, even the uncomfortable ones, the agitations, the vulnerability, the more we can hold space for another. We have a wider capacity. And men, in many ways, they had a kind of challenging upbringing, not all men but some, in how they had to compartmentalize their vulnerability. So it's not easy for them sometimes to see people in their vulnerability the tendency for some men i say underscore some men is when they see a partner cry they immediately want to fix it because it's uncomfortable for them to be in it so when they and when they make familiar with their own inner home their body their heart you know these two areas of intelligence and how to hold the container inside themselves they have a capacity to also then be with the other who's vulnerable and not have to rush to come up with a solution?

1:02:50Can I just allow space for it for a moment? It's not that you can't want to provide support, but it's just your own inner kind of capacity really impacts the other. Am I patient with myself? Am I able to be still? And then I'm able to be patient with others when they're not still, for example. So these things, I think, I mean, I'm going to say another thing that I know it's coming from my own observation, but personally, I feel like leadership today, what's happening in the world today in the last four or five decades is really, if I look at some of the big leaders in politics, I see really, you know, poor leadership, if I'm honest.

1:03:37And I see if I go deeper than that and I look at some of these big leaders today in politics, I see big wounds. I see areas where there's hurt. And, of course, I can go to that place as a therapist. But if that's not addressed, we end up being these very unconscious, narcissistic, one-direction, one-dimensional kind of leaders. And we can almost turn into dictatorships. you know so i think doing the inner work makes you not just aware of self but aware of the whole humanity and consciousness and uh it we need it today more than ever having just come from a fucking climate change the next breed of leaders really need to include nature in how they you know leave their footprint rubta can you expand just a little bit on the nervous system because So what I love about your work and what you say also and how you work is the moment a person actually experienced something in the body, a shift happens.

1:04:42Whilst the person may have known it mentally for the last decade, the moment it's experienced, something else happens entirely. So maybe very short, can you explain what happens in the nervous system? Why is this important? So let's take, for example, anger. maybe there is somebody who recognizes they've been angry at a parent who overwhelmed them across their boundaries and they never were able to address that anger so it's stored and if they don't honor the anger they can become passive or they can become explosive or implosive yeah so then the anger gets held back or becomes you know uncontrolled and even we can even go to numbness with anger, by the way, that we don't give it any airtime or oxygen.

1:05:32And by the way, numbness is pervasive. I'm often dealing with men who are dealing with numbness because they don't feel anything, because they won't allow any of those feelings. But then they also don't allow the joy of the work that they've been doing, enjoying their fruitful success. So then what we do when you bring it in through somatically is we allow that individual to complete a movement that they might not have been able to complete. Taking the story of the child that was angry at the parent for overstepping the boundary and finally having a release that might look like a body movement, might look like a sound coming out, might look like a kind of an action or a gesture, and finally letting that almost tension come out that's been held and compartmentalized.

1:06:21And sometimes I even push against the person a little bit just to give a little bit of a coming into the body because we get so stuck in the head for so many years that we become used to this operating system here and in. And when that finally happens somatically, the other side of that is often a relaxation can come. Sometimes a longer ability can come because they've been holding so many feelings. Sometimes a sense of empowerment comes because they've been so collapsed in their life and they've been a pleaser to get everybody's love and approval. So this whole somatic experience gives them a kind of almost like a new perception of self, a new realization of self, a new experience of who they are.

1:07:07Maybe before we close, and we should sometime, it's been a long conversation already. Thank you for everyone who's still with us. I want to ask you just all three touch a bit on why retreats? Why is a retreat setting a good one to start this work or get into it somehow. And maybe also specifically touch on what I think is one of the real strengths in our design of these is we're doing it with people from the tech sector. And some people have come to me and said, I don't think I want to talk about these things with this group. I wouldn't want it in the ecosystem. So to say that things they're going to talk about and so on.

1:07:52And I know many of us also walked in with a bit of that thought because obviously, you know, that's something that you walk in with when you're meeting 15 people, 20 people that you have never met before. And now you're going into something where you're going to be sharing deep stuff. What I would just say to everyone is that we all unanimously or every one of us shared things we normally would not share. And we felt perfectly comfortable doing it because a trust relationship is really built within this group. And so if anyone has that caution, I would say you would never violate the trust of any of the people you were there with.

1:08:34I promise you that. And actually, I think it was incredibly powerful also because it's also a teacher in terms of knowing that, okay, if 20 random people that come here all deal with this, probably we all do. So I think that there's an angle to that as well. But this retreat question, why are retreats a good way to embark on this journey? And maybe specifically also within tech. So look, I've done a lot of work, right? And I think there are different modalities. So you do therapy. The limits to talk therapy is typically a somewhat intellectual process. or you understand shit, but you get stuck.

1:09:15Then you can do psychedelics, for example. You can have these breakthrough experiences and if you do good sense-making out of it, that's pretty good. You can do meditation. You can do a whole host of things. The coming together as a group, whether it's the Hoffman process or deep dive, brings a level of, you know, this shared human experience is incredibly powerful. And then the retreat container just allows everybody to build this fabric of trust, which allows you to go deeper and deeper. And this is when the exceptional releases happen. And these moments that are seeing somebody else go through a life transforming experience inspires you to go to the same place or actually may shift something in you at the same time.

1:10:09and to your point on trust it's so not even a question that you know the people who are with us in the group it's a fucking tribe like if any of them needs anything for the next 20 years they will call me I'll be like sure I'm flying over like that's where you get to you don't get to oh we trust each other not to talk about it we go like hey you need me to fly you to the John Hopkins in the US because you got a problem and your brother can't make any time? Sure, I'll be over. That's where you get to, I think. There's that quality of container. What I would say about it, first retreats in general, and then more specifically our retreat, is why retreat setting is so important is oftentimes you disconnect, often it's in nature.

1:10:59So it's already multiple days where you disconnect it. Typically, you also don't have the phone, which is a massive distraction, right? And you're with a group where there's guidance in a certain container you're being held. And that's just so much easier to do the work than doing it yourself one-on-one. And even worse, in the environment you're already normally operating in and working. So I think that is a big, big part as to why retreat in general is very powerful. I want to add to what Fred said around the group. because there's another layer to this that I gradually came to really, really, not only deeply value and appreciate, but for me, it's a true game changer when you have one-on-one work versus group work.

1:11:48And that is the energy of a group amplifies, meaning when you work and grief comes up, sadness. Yeah, it starts somewhere and this is a ripple effect. When you see a person crying, your body reacts to it. What happens in a group setting is there is then, whether it's anger, whether it's grief, something, it is in the energy, in the field. And that is such an incredible way to go through it yourself, to be part of it, to amplify everything that's there for yourself to grow. that once you've experienced this, you realize it's a very different way of working. And to me, that is extremely powerful.

1:12:34And then finally, to the point of why our retreat, why it's such a beautiful opportunity to do this with other investors and founders, is because not only do you work on all the points Fred mentioned earlier that are highly beneficial for you as a leader, but you're also developing such deep relationships. And Fred already said it. you do anything for each other last weekend i was with rupta in valencia we we did this in a very short format one half hours people were crying people came to us afterward that this is so so needed and there were a few people from the deep dive at the very beginning of the conference we look at each other we enter the room you walk straight at each other you you hug each other there's so much love it's such a deep connection so even to your earlier point andreas even if you would only do this as a tourist as visiting and you want to do this for the relationships alone not even for your own personal development journey the relationships you're building there are completely next level and that means that whether the next person could become an alpina fund or whatever it is as a business outcome it just it just a different level of relationship that enables completely different levels of connection so that's that's it i often say to people with four years of therapy, because I do do a lot of one-on-one with people, but the truth is when I'm doing one-on-one sessions with people, I'd rather not keep them four years in therapy.

1:14:06I'd rather have them have a four-day experience in the retreat. I'd rather that instead of them facing me, I'd rather take the therapist away and they're together with other people because for me that I have seen accelerate leaps and bounds in how much they resolve and repair and go to deeper places because of what is being reflected back what is being mirrored what is that human experience that they're having way deeper than just facing a therapist each each week you know so actually most of the time when people do sessions with me I say, do you want to consider also doing some group work together where you really meet with others?

1:14:51And it takes the therapist out of the equation, but way more profound. And the other part that happens there, without getting too, you know, in the woo-woo, and I'm trying to ground this as much as possible, but the mystical comes in. Something much bigger than all of us comes in. And you can call it spiritual. You can call it we're held by something. You can call it whatever name you want to call it, but it's bigger than all of us. And it moves through that space when we're all in that experience together. And it may be untouchable, maybe it's unseeable, maybe it's formless, but it's powerful, it's palpable, and we're all feeling it.

1:15:36And it's like a swirl wind that's moving through that circle of people and through hearts, and it's opening people. And I can't understand it in my rational mind. And I don't know how to explain it to the next person, but it's bigger than any one person. And I love that. And I want to say that I've been on a spiritual path for 48 years. And I've been to so many processes. And I've been touched by so many experiences. And I decided one day to put together something that just kind of the best of the best experiences and journeys and touch points and, you know, and put it all together into kind of a four day boom.

1:16:21Yes, it is full on. Yes, we deep dive. It's a no bullshit approach. I ask people come when you're ready, not just out of a curiosity. And I feel it really works. It's bigger than any single one of us because the most uptight, resistant-minded person has come through that process. And on the last day, kaboom. And not one person made that happen. So I do think that there's something there. I call it mystical. You can call it whatever you want. That happens. That takes place. That takes any. It's like I say to people in deep dive, you can put your grief, your pain, your sorrow, your anger, your anguish, your fears, your insecurities, your unworthiness into the cauldron of the deep dive, and it has the capacity to transform.

1:17:12moment maybe to add one more just a very practical element andreas because i think that's maybe good to know there in in our retreat the groups will be divided meaning there's also a choice to be in a group together with let's say you you would come with a good friend there's a choice to do the sharing together in a group or to separate i think that's important to know because it gives you a choice as to if there's certain if you're thinking about taking another vc you want to do together but you would like to be separate in group the choice is there my personal experience here is for the last retreat i invited also a few friends founder friends vcs and what i came to realize is there was one friend of mine in our group in our pod and most of my friends were in the other afterwards i actually regretted it to the point well it's not regret I loved connecting to all the people on my part but what I realized is again the depth of connection I wish I would have shared it with them as well right and there's always a trade-off but it's such a beautiful opportunity to do it also with friends and at the same time there's opportunity if you really want to do this in a group where there's no people that are friends more strangers that opportunity is there as well I would much rather bring my friends for a retreat like this than I would bring my friends to Las Vegas.

1:18:35I must say that I completely understand what you say there, Mike. So let me end this episode by just stating that we're doing the next one in April, April 1st to 6th in a beautiful place in Italy. So anyone to whom this work is, you know, seems interesting, seems like something you want to get deeper into, just reach out to me personally I'll follow up and follow through on that we're doing it all four of us together and it's going to be just as magical as it was last time and now to Fred, Mike and Robda thank you so much for coming on the podcast thank you so much for doing this work all three of you I think it's incredibly important so thank you pleasure and thank you Andreas for being our voice in the universe thank you It's the megaphone.

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1:20:45Tear down this wall. It's more than just an ally. This is a union of values. Let's start acting. Acting, acting, acting, acting, acting