In short
UPDATE energy drink’s relaunch with Kim Kardashian; plus a CPG roundup covering Kardashian-Jenner ingestible beauty/CPG launches, Hershey’s Reese’s recipe controversy, and broader CPG trends (big-food deals, private label, and testosterone supplements).
Guest backgrounds
Daniel Solomons is CEO and co-founder of UPDATE. He moved to New York from Australia seven years ago and built the brand around caffeine-free energy using paraxanthine. Hosts Nate and Jenna are “Curious Consumer” hosts and long-time fans of UPDATE.
Key claims
UPDATE uses paraxanthine (a caffeine molecule) to deliver focus/mood without caffeine side effects; it was first commercialized as the first brand globally to use paraxanthine. Kim Kardashian became an “organic” customer and later partnered on rebranding, formula refresh, and retailer rollout. Hershey’s Reese’s changes affected <3% of products; reformulations were driven by cocoa prices and labeling/legal constraints.
Notable examples
UPDATE’s early “unmarked capsule” paraxanthine trial; relaunch into 4,000+ Walmart doors; Kylie’s K2O hydration powder at Coachella; Cloud protein tortilla chips; Kourtney’s first Lemmy multivitamin; Brad Reese’s LinkedIn viral letter; McCormick buying Unilever’s food business; GoPuff private label tiers; Mars Men testosterone supplement funding.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VODaniel's Journey and UPDATE's Evolution
0:46 to 3:05
Daniel shares his background and the journey of UPDATE from concept to reality.
“But now to some new branding, some new distribution, new formulation a little bit.”
The Science Behind UPDATE's Ingredients
3:06 to 7:20
Discussion on how UPDATE formulates its products without caffeine using paraxanthine.
“this ingredient scientist who figured out how to extract the best part of caffeine, which happens to be this molecule called paraxanthine, and it It gives you the effect that you want from caffeine.”
The Kim Kardashian Partnership
7:21 to 11:28
Exploration of how Kim Kardashian became involved with UPDATE and the nature of their collaboration.
“There are other brands that can use it now as well.”
Walmart Launch and Target Consumers
11:29 to 14:01
Insights into the Walmart launch and the diverse consumer base for UPDATE.
“That's rare, I think, especially with a celebrity of her size.”
Updates on Energy Drink Target Demographics
14:01 to 14:40
Discussion on the diverse consumer base for energy drinks beyond traditional stereotypes.
“So what update does is really gives you the energy for four hours.”
The Shift Towards Female Targeting in Energy Drinks
14:40 to 16:36
Exploration of how energy drinks are increasingly targeting female consumers and expanding their market.
“actually one of the very first episodes of this podcast we put out was called energy drinks are for the girls talking about this just new boom of female targeting energy drinks.”
Retail Strategies and Channel Expansion
16:36 to 18:09
Insights on the retail strategy for energy drinks and upcoming availability across various stores.
“And we are seeing retailers, this audience really come and adopt the product.”
Challenges of Podcast Recording Amid Construction
18:09 to 19:15
Hosts share humorous anecdotes about recording delays due to construction noise.
“Amazon as well and a handful of other retailers that we're basically just setting up with.”
Kylie Jenner's K2O Hydration Powder Launch
20:12 to 22:26
Details about Kylie's new hydration product launching at Coachella, including its market positioning.
“So we're going to get into it and we're going to start with a Kardashian-Jenner roundup.”
Market Trends in Ingestible Beauty Products
22:26 to 24:18
Examination of the growing trend of ingestible beauty products and their appeal to consumers.
“It's the reason why Spindrift dropped their RTD sparkling beverage as well, because it's just hard.”
Show all 24 chapters
Validation of Beauty Supplements in Retail
24:18 to 26:48
Discussion on how retailers are increasingly validating beauty supplements as part of their offerings.
“And this also contains a clinically studied collagen peptide called varisol.”
Chloe Kardashian's Cloud Chip Launch
26:48 to 28:00
Insight into Chloe Kardashian's new line of protein tortilla chips and its unique marketing angle.
“I I expect to see more brands coming out with beauty and skincare skews that are not necessarily in a beauty and skincare format.”
Protein Tortilla Chips Analysis
28:00 to 29:58
Discussion about the new protein tortilla chips and their ingredients.
“She launched her protein tortilla chips.”
Kardashian Brand Launches
29:59 to 31:58
Overview of Kourtney Kardashian's gummy supplement brand and multivitamin launch.
“an exciting launch because it does indicate that the cloud brand will be a lot more than just protein popcorn.”
The Kardashian CPG Impact
31:59 to 32:54
Discussion about the Kardashians' influence in the consumer packaged goods space.
“But that is our Kardashian-Jenner segment.”
Hershey's Recipe Controversy
32:55 to 36:44
Examination of Hershey's recent recipe changes and consumer reactions.
“Also, I was writing Hershey's, and then I realized Hershey's is the bar, but Hershey is the company.”
Consumer Education on Food Transparency
36:45 to 42:00
A look at consumer demand for transparency in food ingredients and the complexities involved.
“So that's all the context that I feel like needs to be said.”
Understanding Consumer Outrage
42:00 to 44:30
Explore the complexities of consumer behavior and market dynamics under capitalism.
“That's what you should be mad at, I would say.”
Major Food Industry Movements
44:30 to 46:50
Discuss the implications of McCormick acquiring Unilever's food business.
“But in the world of big food, there was another really big deal that took place last week.”
GoPuff's Private Label Strategy
46:50 to 48:50
Investigate GoPuff's new private label product lines and market strategy.
“everything under the sun to be successful and maintain their relevancy and maintain their bottom line.”
Mars Men: A Testosterone Supplement
48:50 to 51:10
Delve into the rise of a testosterone-boosting supplement company called Mars Men.
“So the Crave Shop, they're doing a few things that are cool.”
The Broader Implications of Testosterone Marketing
51:10 to 56:01
Analyze the marketing approach of testosterone products and their societal impact.
“because I don't feel well-versed in testosterone.”
The Quick Fix Myth in Supplements
56:01 to 57:29
Explore how the supplement industry promotes convenience over true lifestyle changes.
“And look, I guess a lot of guys might want that or feel like that's what they need and want.”
Teasing Future Topics in Health News
57:30 to 58:04
Get a sneak peek into upcoming discussions on the creatine wellness supplements market.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Welcome back to another episode of the Curious Consumer. I'm Nate.
0:05Daniel Solomons:I'm Jenna. And today with us, we have a very special guest, my twin. If you are watching this video, you can see that we look very much alike. Daniel Solomons, the CEO and co-founder of UPDATE. Welcome, Daniel. Thanks for having me. Of course. It's really good to see you. It's cool to see this brand. From when we first met, we were at a friend's office. I was trying the samples you brought in a indescript bottle with just like a piece of tape on it. It's so cool to see you go from that to Kim Kardashian and 4 ,000 plus Walmart doors. You've been around from day one from bad tasting product, exploding cans.
0:52I don't know what else. Oh my God. But now to some new branding, some new distribution, new formulation a little bit. All of the above.
1:03Daniel Solomons:Well, let's back up a little bit. What are we talking about here? Daniel, can you give us a quick intro? Who are you? What is update? And why are we talking about Kim Kardashian right now? I'm Daniel Solowins. I moved to New York seven years ago from Australia and had a crazy idea that an energy drink should be an easy-ish thing to do. and a few years later I guess I'm sitting here thankful for being naive because here we are having just relaunched update with Kim. I thought energy drinks were a really interesting thing to get into. You basically have this space where everyone needs energy but all the energy drink offerings to me felt out of reach.
1:43They were either branded really hyper-masculine or hyper-feminine. Often people gave them a bit of a stigma that I would feel a little bit embarrassed kind of holding, walking around with, drinking. They were just packed with so much caffeine as well that a lot of the formulas are basically caffeine plus more caffeine. And none of this really gelled with me. I never actually have drunk an entire energy drink before, except for an update. I have sipped others for flavor comparison, but that's about it. And so I thought, imagine if you can have an energy drink, but you correct the stigma to it. And then on the science side of things, what was kind of interesting is roughly one in two people, albeit they consume caffeine, they process it a lot more slowly than others.
2:28So that's, you know, the people who are looking at their watch, it's like 2pm, if I have a coffee now, I'm going to be up all night. Or it's the person who's going to the gym in the afternoon needs to pick me up. But if they have an energy drink, they're going to get antsy or anxious or jittery. So if we could correct the stigma and come up with a way to give you the energy you want without those side effects, we thought we would have some kind of a winner. Fast forward several years, a lot of trial and error, six different formulas along the way, every single ingredient test under the Sun, and we ended up with update as it is today.
3:05What's really cool is we don't use caffeine, so we basically partner up with this ingredient scientist who figured out how to extract the best part of caffeine, which happens to be this molecule called paraxanthine, and it It gives you the effect that you want from caffeine. So it makes you feel like focused, motivated, it improves your mood, but it doesn't have those side effects. And so we were basically the first brand in the world to use this. And that's what Update's really based around. It's just caffeine-free energy, but it doesn't compromise on the energy aspect.
3:34Daniel Solomons:How did you even like come across it in the first place? So it's a really fun story. Basically, when we first came up with the idea of Update, the whole Nootropics craze was going on. you had your joe rogan's your andrew huberman's your dave asprey's all these guys were coming out with these nootropic supplements or promoting them almost talking about it akin to the limitless pill we basically create this matrix of like all these products in the market all the ingredients that are used look at the most common ingredients in these products and figure okay well these guys seem to know what they're talking about why don't we see if we can do this ourselves so i ordered dozens of ingredients off amazon bought all this like fun science gear thinking like you need science gear to try and make this so like these beakers and like these little electric spinners and all of this fun stuff um and for weeks i'm like trying to measure certain ingredients and and basically it just like continued to taste terrible and didn't work and like kept falling flat and so then i started going down reddit rabbit holes there's like a whole new tropics forum on reddit and there was someone who like several people just like kept tying their ingredient comments or questions back to this one individual and basically calling him like the top ingredient formulator.
4:48So I was like, all right, there's clearly enough, uh, enough, uh, sentiment there. So I basically DM the guy on Instagram, um, and said like, Hey, wanting to create this energy drink, we don't want to use caffeine. We want to use different ingredients. And he reached back out. He thought it was exciting. So he said, yes. Um, after three months of building up a relationship with him and still working on the product but with these other nootropic ingredients he turned around to me and he said look a lot of these ingredients that we're working with a bio individual so what works for you might not work for me and this is an energy drink like everyone has to feel it i've been working on commercializing a new ingredient for the past five years it won't be ready for another 12 months but i'm going to send it to you to try and if you like it then we should talk about it and he sends me a bag of white capsules like completely unmarked um just like a clear plastic bag with like two dozen little white capsules I have no idea what this is and he says trust me just try it so I basically at home um at the time my one vice for the day was like a chocolate chip cookie every afternoon so I'd have like I'd get I'd go downstairs after lunch I'd buy a coffee I'd get a chocolate cookie I'd put it on my desk and I'd like work for the next few hours and eat the cookie and one day I have the capsule four hours later I look up and the cookie is just sitting there and I've just been working for four hours and I've never had that experience before I've never taken like Adderall or Vyvanse or Ritalin I've never had anything like that but I imagine it's probably not far from that kind of experience so I was like you know what it could be placebo so I try this for like the rest of the week then I go give these unmarked pills to my friends I'm like no just trust me and everyone reports back having this really similar experience.
6:36So I reached out to him and like, hey, I got to know what this is. And that's when he told me it's paraxanthine. They would get keeping this because they were still a year away from commercialization. They were still going through all the IP and the regulatory process. And then we decided it would be great to partner up and be the first brand to work with them to commercialize this.
6:55Daniel Solomons:That is the wildest story. So, okay, first of all, I love that it all came from a Reddit rabbit hole because what, what hasn't come? The best ideas in this life have come from a Reddit rabbit hole. So it wasn't patented. You were still like, he was still in the patent process. Is it patented now and can other people use it? Or are you like the sole ready to drink that's able to use it? No. So it is all trademarked now. There are other brands that can use it now as well. Okay. Find it in different product formats, um, most notably pouches or supplement capsules. I think when you're introducing new ingredients to people, you want a product format that requires no explanation.
7:40So it, you know, it wasn't a tincture or a capsule or a powder that you have to get finicky with and be like, how many drops, How much am I scooping? It's like everyone knows one can, one dose. It's really simple, requires no explanation. And in terms of building a brand and having presents on a shelf at retail, I think having a can or a block thereof establishes more of that brand block than if it was, you know, small powders or capsules or tinctures.
8:10Daniel Solomons:Can we get into the Kim of it all then? So you have this product, you semi launch it into the world. And then what's the trajectory from this product existing to the relaunch, which just happens with Kim? So we semi launched this into the world. We basically sent the product to, you know, several people. And Kim happened to be one of the people that we got product to. Fast forward several months, we're still getting notifications on Shopify on my phone. It was like a novelty when someone bought a product on the website. And whenever someone, you know, most people buy one case, two cases. And whenever someone's buying like five or six items, I'm like, who's the schmuck buying five or six energy drink boxes?
8:57Like who needs so much at once? So I would always go and look. And it was Saturday night, one night, it was like 1030 at night. I see seven items are ordered. And I look and I'm like, oh, wow. And it was someone on Kim's team basically buying the product for Kim. And I thought that That was cool. Fast forward again and Kim just on her social media or on the TV show that the family have, we would see update pop up every now and then. Completely unsolicited, had no idea it was happening. But we found out through the grapevine that she really is obsessed with the product and she had basically incorporated as part of her daily routine.
9:34Fast forward again and she's seen at the Bezos wedding and there was a picture that she posted where she's like carrying update in Venice and I was like wow like she really like not only she obsessed with it in America she's traveling with this thing and then you fast forward again and she basically reached out to us and you know suggested she would love to kind of partner up here we have a great product but you know we haven't quite cracked the nail on how to make it really relevant yet and so she wanted to come in and basically impart her creative genius onto the brand we would then decide you know let's kind of like pause operations for now let's do that let's really do a rebrand refresh the formula and then along with kim we would go and approach the different retailers and see which would make the most sense to relaunch
10:21Daniel Solomons:the brand and that's how it all came about that is like the most natural celebrity partnership i have ever heard actually i've never it's so funny because i feel like any other founder would be like oh my god this person has it how can i like squeeze everything out of this and it sounds like you kind of played it cool and then she came to you we did do a few things along the way so once i knew she really liked the product uh for those who are familiar with the brand from inception every six months or so we would constantly update the formula when you update the formula you work with a flavor house you get these little glass bottle samples in our case and so once I knew she really enjoyed the product when we were updating the formula I would send her the little glass bottle samples she'd call up getting basically her feedback so those little bits and pieces along the way to try and warm this up but yeah I think it's really it's rare that something like this would come about unless it was really so organic I think that's what made us really excited about the partnership is because she was genuinely like number one customer.
11:35That's rare, I think, especially with a celebrity of her size. I mean, her Instagram following is the same number of people who live in the United States. Did you find with this relaunch and also launching into over 4 ,000 Walmarts that Kim's national reach helped with that launch. And how has the Walmart launch been? We're about five weeks out from that launch. One of the biggest challenges you have as a brand, let alone a beverage brand, let alone in one of the most competitive categories, be it energy, is, you know, it's one thing to maybe get in the door with a buyer get into a store but it's another thing to actually then have confidence that people are going to go in and pull the product off the shelf or go in looking for it and so you really need both in order for this to work and so definitely having Kim on board having her organically promote this to her audience certainly gave the brand and the retailers a lot of confidence that we can go into 4 ,000 Walmart stores and we can be basically one of, if not the largest beverage launch they've ever done.
12:50So that was great. And the launch has been awesome to the extent that we're seeing a lot of posts where it's like people are going to find the product and certain flavors aren't on the shelf because they're out of stock. How are you thinking about the types of consumers that you want drinking this? Obviously 4 ,000 plus Walmarts, Yes, it's everyone. But as you build out your core, core customer base over the next few months, the next year, is it somebody who's doing esports? Is it someone who's just going to Aloe? Who are you sort of thinking about as your core consumer to get it into more fridges?
13:31Yeah, I think part of the reason that we chose launching with Walmart was that we're we wanted this to be accessible to everyone. In terms of our consumer, I think a lot of the brands that exist today focus on a very hyper focus on a specific niche, right? But today, our lives have really changed where we're far more multi-dimensional and you need a product that can work with you for those different moments in the day that aren't just in your system for five hours and then you can crash. So what update does is really gives you the energy for four hours. It helps you really lock in your focus for four hours roughly then it slowly gets out of your system so it really serves those different moments in life versus just being so hyper focused and we're seeing that you know in terms of the customer base already it's not your wellness girly it's not your gym bro it's not your tech bro it's not your finance guy it's like all these different people are consuming it for these specific occasions and we're seeing that right now so it's a far more multi-dimensional customer than just your very specific target.
14:39Daniel Solomons:I was curious about like the target consumer question too, partly because actually one of the very first episodes of this podcast we put out was called energy drinks are for the girls talking about this just new boom of female targeting energy drinks. And I would argue that this falls somewhere within that, at least with Kim now. Um, so I was kind of curious if you like how you're seeing that category expansion and what that means for like increasing your addressable market. Now that it seems like more women are partaking in energy drinks in a way that they didn't before, like the Celsius is then the Alani news of the world.
15:19Yeah, I think that's fair. I think we definitely skew more female than masculine. That being said, we want it to be really intentional with the branding that it wouldn't feel alienated to guys and I think we've managed to thread that needle. So what's really interesting actually about Update for Retail is we are finding that we're accretive to retail because we're not just stealing your Celsius customer, we're not just stealing your Monster customer or Red Bull customer, but we're able to introduce new people into the category primarily through two things. One, through the branding because it's a brand that doesn't have a stigma to it it looks far more aspirational as a product and it is bringing that new audience be it more of a female audience but also just on the functional side of things all of a sudden everyone who needs energy can now get it without the cost that caffeine would come with and so we are definitely seeing more customers join the category because of that and yes it definitely does skew more towards the female market and I think we are seeing that I think Kim certainly accelerates that and her audience, this speaks directly to her audience.
16:31Um, but I think, you know, we've tried to really thread the needle so it doesn't alienate the others. And we are seeing retailers, this audience really come and adopt the product.
16:41Daniel Solomons:I feel like we always see this like stratification of gendered products where it's like, everything's been for men always. And then we come out with products that are starting to be more geared towards women. And now kind of we're leveling the playing field and seeing a lot more like unisex branded products come out that are just like not gendered a concept crazy that you can do that but yeah super exciting to see that in the energy space and really cool just to hear how much momentum you've had since since the relaunch i imagine it's been pretty life-changing and nothing like what you expected when you first launched the brand it's certainly been life-changing it's become a lot more busy like we never stop the moment this design was done like we're already in the lab like seeing is there way are there ways to improve it are there certain flavors that will taste you know really good with the ingredients for the next lto or the next flavor um like we would not compromise on that i don't think you can ever have a perfect product but i think you can't stop trying to like continuously improve it to reach perfection no you can't get there so you You have to keep constantly trying to improve it.
17:51Yeah, we're not going to stop.
17:53Daniel Solomons:So we can find you in 4 ,000 Walmarts. Where else can people find update or where can they find updates soon or in the future? So we're currently in basically nationwide at Walmart. We should be at the vitamin shop again. We should be at Wegman shortly thereafter. Amazon as well and a handful of other retailers that we're basically just setting up with. Amazing. Beautiful. That's so exciting. Very cool. Thanks, Daniel. Sorry, everyone, that we are hosting this a day late. I have been under bombardment of construction noises beneath my apartment. New York City life, baby. Not above. Not next to.
18:38Beneath. I live on the first floor, and there's a garage right below me, and they're doing construction underneath. And we very much could not record.
18:46Daniel Solomons:Well, we got, so we got on to record. It's so funny because I'm like, no one's going to notice we put this out a day late other than like our real OG OGs. Yeah. But we got on a record this morning and we were like, oh, actually it sounds like there's like. It sounds like somebody's jackhammering up into my apartment. My wall. It was so, like Nate was like, oh, there's some construction. I was like, oh, it'll be fine. No. No. No. Not fine. So here we are, but it's fine because we are fueled by – actually, we are fueled by energy drinks right now. I am drinking a Bloom energy drink, the crisp apple.
19:27Daniel Solomons:Disloyal to our guests of the week. Well, I had an update while we were recording. Yes, which was a different time. I had an update this morning, which is the day after we recorded, and that is what is still fueling me despite it being kind of late later in the day than we usually record so shout out to Parazanthine and what's really funny about this week is we interviewed Daniel just because we've been wanting to interview Daniel we're fans of Update we've been tracking on the brands relaunch since I guess it's been a month now it wasn't like a timely interview in that respect, but it happened to be really timely because this week, randomly, every single Kardashian-Jenner sister has made it into our newsletter.
20:18Daniel Solomons:So we're going to get into it and we're going to start with a Kardashian-Jenner roundup. And it all begins with Kylie. Kylie this week launched K2O, which is a new advanced beauty electrolyte or hydration powder. Nate is holding it up and showing us. And the reason that this involves all of the Kardashian sisters is because she will be launching it actually at Coachella next weekend at Kendall's 818 Tequila Outpost at Coachella. She will have these hydration stick packets at the ready. And K2O is interesting because it is launching as a line extension of a brand that Kylie already had, which was a vodka soda brand called Sprinter.
21:05Daniel Solomons:And I have to be so honest with you, I did not know that existed. I did know it existed. I never got to try it. It was just a vodka spritzer, fruity flavors, like nothing too out there. But yeah, I don't think you were alone in either not knowing it existed or not knowing if it was still around. Because a lot of the the discourse I saw online around this was like, wait, wasn't she doing like a vodka thing? I think this pivot makes a lot of sense for Kylie. She wasn't, she's not really seen as like a big drinker or partier. I think it just didn't really align with her personal brand. And I think a skincare hydration packet aligns a lot more with Kylie and even just the broader Kardashian and Jenner's brands in general.
22:01It fits within the Lemmy of it all. It fits within Cloud even. It's much more health and wellness focused. The other side of it, it is theoretically a once or twice a day type product. So it fits into somebody's routine. It's easier to show off. It's easier for Kylie to show it off. And there's also a lot of other issues with BevAlk. With alcohol, all, you're dealing with the three-tier system, you're dealing with unique distribution, you're dealing with a lot. It's the reason why Spindrift dropped their RTD sparkling beverage as well, because it's just hard. But a lot of people were very confused about this pivot, and I actually think this could be a pretty good brand for her.
22:47I'm curious to see how much she'll share it. That's where this brand will win is if she integrates this into her daily life. But it's very clear that like they're betting on wellness, they're betting on skincare, they're betting on supplements. Because the CEO that was announced today, Jay Hunter, he's coming in from Mary Ruth's, a very, very popular supplement company. And it's very clear that they're leaning really hard into the health and wellness of it all in the supplement category.
23:20Daniel Solomons:Yeah, actually, TMZ, not that this is the most rapid bill source in the world, but TMZ reported last month that Sprinter appeared to be pivoting away from vodka soda. So they figured it out because they saw that they were filing trademarks, not just for hydration stick powder, but for supplement shakes and bars and vitamins. I'm like, at what point is this competing with Courtney, actually. But it definitely makes a lot of sense. Ingestible beauty is all the rage right now. Look at brands like Armra and Ritual and Vital Proteins. And we've always kind of been told that like, if you're hydrated, your skin will look better.
23:56Daniel Solomons:If you drink more water, your skin will look better. And now we associate, I am only hydrated if I have my electrolytes or my liquid I have E or whatever, which that is actually incorrect. But because consumers make that association naturally, it only makes sense to have this ingestible beauty that pairs electrolytes with beauty ingredients like hyaluronic acid. And this also contains a clinically studied collagen peptide called varisol. And so hyaluronic acid and collagen and electrolytes, all of those ingredients are primed to be in consumers' brains to be the building blocks of good skincare.
24:35Daniel Solomons:And they'll take it in whatever format. I think it makes a lot of sense to be moving into an ingestible beauty right now. Also, retailers are enabling this space to even exist in the first place. When I think about beauty and beauty supplements, I used to think about biotin, like a hair, skin and nails gummy from Nature's Bounty or something. And that was not sold at Sephora or Ulta. But some of these brands that I just mentioned, like Armra, like Vital Proteins, like Moon Juice. They all set the stage for retailers like Ulta and Sephora to start including ingestible beauty in their sets and putting something like, you know, Armra, which is colostrum powder next to body wash or mascara or whatever.
25:22Daniel Solomons:So like the blurring of the lines is already there. And we talk about, we kind of talk about this all the time, actually, but it's really interesting to us that like, I just don't think beauty is even a category anymore in some ways because any category can also latch on to having like a beauty skew. Like there are so many food categories that have a beauty skew with some of these ingredients in it. Beauty is more seen as a function than a category now, I almost think. Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, I was in Ulta Beauty today and walking around the wellness section, seeing people pick up things and look at it and add it to their cart was fascinating to see.
26:01I was also in Target earlier today as well. And it was, you know, you also see it in there and it's, it's these retailers, they're giving space and validation to these brands to fit in the beauty and skincare world where before they were relegated to maybe a vitamin shop, maybe just D2C, their own website. Like there were fewer spaces and also just fewer consumer education around it and with Vital Proteins and Moon Juice and all these other brands that like most consumers know, it's given so much validation to this new lines of product alongside new retail and new points of distribution for these things to actually exist and thrive and be validated even more.
26:48I I expect to see more brands coming out with beauty and skincare skews that are not necessarily in a beauty and skincare format. Like what we talked about last week with Freaks of Nature coming out with also a hydration packet with internal UV protection function to it. You can read more in our newsletter from the other week, but there's going to be a lot more of this out there. Let's move on to our next Kardashian-Jenner brand. unreal this is we're like a we're like a pop culture uh channel now um chloe kardashian she has cloud which is now not cloud popcorn it's also cloud chips so they introduced a line of protein tortilla chips after the cloud popcorn brand has really taken off i've heard from some private sources that we have that they're doing very well tens of millions in in annual sales right now they they basically just launched.
27:48The interesting thing about this, and Jenna, I'm going to let you go on my rant. I think you put it very well. The first ingredient is avocado oil.
27:58Daniel Solomons:So, okay. She launched her protein tortilla chips. Great. That's what they're called. The marketing of it is like, it says good stuff, zero fluff, lots of copy around no seed oils. fine and yes you turn it over there are no seed oils it's a pretty short ingredient list on that ingredient list though the first ingredient as in the ingredient that there is the most of in the product is avocado oil so while there is no seed oil and if you want to use the zero fluff i also zero fluff is so chat gpt to me i like can't even hear it but the first ingredient of tortilla chips isn't even corn? That's wild to me.
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28:42Daniel Solomons:So yeah, there's no seed oil. I will say caveat to that is that there's been a lot of independent testing that's shown that a significant portion of commercial avocado oil does have cheaper seed oils in it. So you still might be getting seed oil, but we'll give it the benefit of the doubt. This is the purest of pure avocado oil. Even still, the first ingredient is oil and not corn. If you are a consumer who's trying to get closer to quote unquote real food, then you should be prioritizing the whole food, which in this case is corn, not avocado oil. Like that just bothers me so much. But sure, if you want to get your protein, it's also not even that high protein.
29:23No, it's not. I tried them. I was not a fan of these uh i thought the texture was pretty good i found that the there was a pretty significant
29:35Daniel Solomons:aftertaste with these of like whey protein or like even tell it just like a funk there's a little bit of a funk aftertaste i i talked to some people who liked it but so far my favorite protein chips were the hippies ones that we tried at expo west so good and you know why because the first ingredient is probably chickpeas. Anyway, that's on cloud chips. I mean, I think this is an exciting launch because it does indicate that the cloud brand will be a lot more than just protein popcorn. But I feel like we kind of excluded cloud popcorn from all of the rhetoric about how protein products are actually junk because it is zero fluff, or at least it says it is and i just would say approach all high protein products with equal skepticism i agree that's not our last no we have another we have another we have another this one's another kardashian brand kourtney our beloved kourtney we'll be short with this one but lemmy her her gummy supplement brand surprisingly after launching 17 different gummies and shoes Which also, pause, 17?
30:4617. This is just their gummies and chews, not even their pills. I know. I think they have over 20 chews.
30:52Daniel Solomons:They're pumping them out. Pumping them out and crushing it. But they just launched their first multivitamin. They didn't have one until today. And it's a daily women's multivitamin. Yeah, it is so funny to me because multivitamins are like the OG gummy supplement, right? Like when I think of gummy supplements, I think of like Flintstones gummies, which were multi-vitamins or the like one a days. And only now after they launched a belly fat burning gummy, which is different than their debloat gummies, which is different than their body toning gummies. Like they have so many of these hyper specific SKUs for different things that you're trying to target.
31:32Daniel Solomons:And only now are they like multivitamin time. So it's come full circle, I guess. And honestly, I think it's actually smart because people really trust Lemmy now as a brand. So I think if they had come out with a multivitamin out the gates, they'd be competing with like a Groons and they'd be competing with a lot of brands that already have a household name. So I think it was really smart to earn consumer trust via these other like hyper specific vehicles and then come back to multivitamin once they've gained that trust. I agree. I think it's very smart. But that is our Kardashian-Jenner segment.
32:02Daniel Solomons:Isn't that crazy? This is a CPG podcast. This isn't a celebrity podcast. They all have CPG brands. All of them. Chris has one. She has them safely. Yes, the cleaning product. Which is still around. I didn't know it was still around, but I made a video saying it was not still around, and I got a lot of comments saying, nope, still around. You're spreading misinformation. I'm sorry, Chris. I'm sorry. I'm scared of her. I feel like she knows how to come back to us. You should be scared of her. She could take you down in two seconds. Chris, who's definitely listening, I apologize. Her people might be listening.
32:39Daniel Solomons:She has people to listen to her haters. Let's completely pivot. Hard pivot. Still in CPG, do not worry, people. Don't fear. We need to talk about Hershey's. Yes, we do. Also, I was writing Hershey's, and then I realized Hershey's is the bar, but Hershey is the company. No apostrophe yes. So we're actually talking about Hershey, the company. And we've got a lot to say about Hershey. It's been a tough week to be Hershey. Actually, it's been a tough few months because on Valentine's Day, which also so sad that it was on Valentine's Day. But also very deliberate. Very deliberate. On Valentine's Day, a man by the name of Brad Reese, who happens to be the grandson of H.B.
33:30Daniel Solomons:Reese, who happened to invent the Reese's Peanut Butter Cup in 1928, posted a letter on LinkedIn, great medium, calling out Hershey for swapping real chocolate for compound coatings, quote unquote, and peanut butter for peanut butter creams. themes across parts of the Reese's line. Also, I have to preface this story saying that I am from the suburbs of Philadelphia where we say Reese's and it's taking everything out of me to say Reese's. But I know that's actually technically correct. So I'm just going to keep saying it anyway, which is so funny because you're near Hershey, Pennsylvania. I know.
34:11Daniel Solomons:So maybe we are right. We say we say Reese's. And then when people call me out for it, I'm like, what do you mean? It's Reese's Pieces. No, it's not. Oh, my God. The Philly accent and pronunciation of things is wild. All right. I will leave it at that. We'll fight that out later. Anyway, so Brad posts this. Brad. Brad. Apparently, he tried a bag of Reese's Mini Hearts, and he couldn't even finish them. He spit them out. That's never something I've experienced in my life. And when he shared his concerns, his letter that he posted on LinkedIn went totally viral. He was like on every major news station.
34:54Daniel Solomons:He collabed with Mr. Beast on a video that got 14 million views, which also this is like a 70 year old man. I this whole like his life just changed drastically. But anyway, during Hershey Investor Day last week, they announced that they were reverting the recipe back. They say this and then things kind of blow up again because people are like, oh, you're only doing this because he said something. It's like too little too late. Also, they said they couldn't do it until 2027 and they're like, why are we waiting so long? Like just got so much hate. I want to add some context back in, which is that less than 3 % of the Reese's products were actually affected by these changes.
35:38Daniel Solomons:So we're not talking about like the OG Reese's cup. It was just these like seasonal Reese's mini hearts and a few other. Random, random like LTOs. Random products, 3%. And the reason that Hershey said that they had changed them in the first place was because of rising cocoa prices, which is something that we talk about. We've talked about a few times actually in the newsletter. So I won't go into that now. But these seasonal formats in particular were changed because they're higher margin pressure items, meaning they're often at a lower price point. They have to be sold really quickly, like within the seasonal timeframe.
36:13Daniel Solomons:So they often go on discount. So there's all of these reasons why they need to be formulated at a lower price. And Coco's expensive. So Hershey was like, we're going to reformulate just to protect margins where we have the least pricing power. And they did have to change the labels because it's not FDA compliant to say that it's milk chocolate if it's a mix of cocoa and some palm oil and whatever, instead of the full cocoa butter. They do have to say that. So it says on it, chocolatey candy or chocolate candy or chocolate coating, which none of those terms meet the legal standard for milk chocolate.
36:49Daniel Solomons:So they didn't do anything illegal. So that's all the context that I feel like needs to be said. But this to us just told a much larger story. It's not really about those 3 % of random seasonal items. This is a lot more about the broader conversation that's happening across health, wellness, food, beverage, and even part of the broader Maha movement that's happening. A lot of the outrage is really more virtue signaling that people fit within this health and wellness. They want better food. They want transparency. And this is true. This is very true. Like we're seeing data that consumers want more transparency, that they desire better for you, cleaner ingredients.
37:36The thing is like a lot of people just don't know what that actually means. People don't even know that like certain products that, you know, they think are healthy are ultra processed and they associate ultra processed with unhealthy. And it just, the outrage really stems from like a lack of consumer understanding and education around what our food system is, what labeling means, what a health food really is. It's almost like a big misunderstanding, but I think it does come from a good place. I think a lot of consumers demanding better ingredients and demanding transparency from these brands is good and is clearly working.
38:20I mean, look at all these emerging brands that are in aggregate outpacing a lot of strategic brands. A lot of them are a lot more open about what's in their products, are changing up the formulas. But as we were saying earlier, like once you get to a big size to, you know, the margins matter, the getting these products out the door matter. There's a lot of other things that happen behind the scenes that a lot of consumers just don't fully grasp because they when they shouldn't and they can't. It's all it's very complicated.
38:51Daniel Solomons:Yeah, it definitely is. I think what's tough about this specific story is it was like, yeah, it was like blowing up about the wrong thing. So I think people were getting like really upset of like, oh my God, you're telling me that the chocolate that I've been eating is all these fake chemical or whatever. Or that they're upset about this like very American picturesque ideal vision of this company that started in 1928 and is still here today. And like how are we not protecting the family legacy by using the same ingredients? And like we have to be so honest right now. This is not a farm. like this is like anyone who came out like so angrily upset about this reformulation taking place i guarantee you either they don't buy reese's or if they do they weren't buying reese's because they were like i love this family-owned company and how clean they are they didn't even know i would guarantee that no they didn't even know that brad reese existed or was or any descendants of Reese were alive like they were buying it because it's very available it's at anywhere any gas station any supermarket anywhere you can find it anywhere very available very well priced and very well known and liked that's it it's not they people are not buying this product for health reasons or for this legacy american dream vision like that those products if you want those products, they exist.
40:22Daniel Solomons:Go support them. Go support brands at your farmer's market, if that's what you are looking for. Or, I mean, even broader than that, it doesn't have to just be your farmer's market. Justin's. Go get a Justin's peanut butter cup. That's been around forever. There's issues with that, but still. Yeah, I was going to say, that's actually a really interesting example that you just gave, but we can get into that. Wow, so many controversial peanut butter cups. Who would have thought? A lot of this is in the newsletter, but someone commented on who I had quoted actually. Jesse is the co-founder of Wim's Delights, which is also a better for you peanut butter cup company.
40:58Daniel Solomons:They, I love, they're like low sugar peanut butter cups. They're delicious. But Jesse wrote this really insightful comment that I'm not, it's too long for me to read and I'm going to try to quickly summarize it. But the point being like, you can't have everything. Like you can't be a dollar 50 and be in every gas station and also not have certain stabilizers and not have to respond when certain ingredients get too expensive and you have to lower your margins. Retailers have an expectation for brands that are at this scale. And the only way that they can be at this scale is if they can be shipped at a really long shelf life, which means stabilizers.
41:38Daniel Solomons:And if their margins are low enough that they can be sold at this price point because they aren't using super expensive cocoa all the time. They have to respond to these things because they're huge companies. And once you hit this scale, that's kind of what the American food system has forced brands to do. That doesn't make it okay. And that doesn't mean that these huge corporations shouldn't try to do better. We absolutely expect that. But the system's pretty broken. That's what you should be mad at, I would say. Be mad at the companies. Sure. Be mad at the companies. But understand that the way that they have to operate is unfortunately like within capitalism in the same way that we all have to operate.
42:20Daniel Solomons:And so if you really want that really healthy family owned product, whatever, support emerging breads. Yeah, I think Jesse said something really smart. The system's the villain here. Like consumers are not the villain, honestly, for demanding things are better or even just consuming a Reese's. retailers aren't wrong for demanding low prices the brand isn't wrong for trying to find margin somewhere it's very complicated i mean this is the whole premise of the show the good place it's that like you what there's no ethical consumption under capitalism it's really really hard and at the end of the day it's a reese's peanut butter cup it's a hershey's chocolate it's not a high-end thing that is lying to you to charge you more and it's not a high quality product it's i enjoy reese's i There's nothing wrong with it.
43:09It's just, it's not, it's not the same as buying whims. It's not the same as buying something from your, your local chocolatier or something homemade or something from a farmer's market or a higher end brand using higher end ingredients. This is a mass market product. The, the feeling of being duped is, is, is valid, but it also feels a little bit silly that that is the, the outrage and not a dwindling chocolate supply and global climate change and all this others. There's, there's so many other things that like, if you wouldn't be mad at Hershey, for anything. There's other things you could be mad at them for, but for selling cheap chocolate, it's kind of the point.
43:44It's kind of the point. It's very interesting. I think it's really interesting. It's really interesting to see the outrage, which like I said, I think a lot of it is virtue signaling, but I think it also deep down comes from a good place. And from, from a discussion that's happening more broadly that I hope will change brands. And I hope it will change the system as well. I don't have faith in this current administration to actually do that, despite what they're saying, but it is planting a seed in people's minds that we deserve better, we can have better, and hopefully things will get better.
44:18Daniel Solomons:Yeah. Yeah. Like anything, we don't think that people are necessarily wrong in fighting this. It's more that it's a distraction from the actual problem. Yeah. And here we are distracting you even more. But in the world of big food, there was another really big deal that took place last week. A lot of money. So McCormick is buying Unilever's food business. The combined value of this deal is what, like$45 billion? Yup. It's silly. It's silly. It feels fake. So the combined entity will now combine McCormick and Unilever's iconic brands. So Hellman's, Knorr, Frank's Red Hot, Cholula, French's, all of McCormick's Spices or Kensington's.
45:16It's a lot of iconic brands.
45:18Daniel Solomons:So this is a$45 billion deal, but it's not like an exit. So Unilever will apparently like stay in the deal. They're just not really running as a food company like in the day to day. And instead, they're going to be focusing almost exclusively on beauty personal care. Their current portfolio includes Dove, Vaseline, Dermalogica, Nutrafol. So it makes sense that they would want to hone in on their personal care set. But it's still a really big deal. We saw signs of this happening when they sold off their ice cream business. But now they've sold off the rest of it. And it's just clean cut. But yeah, this isn't really happening in isolation.
46:01No, no. It's happening pretty broadly across the spectrum. There was going to be a Kraft Heinz breakup that ended up not happening. But a lot of these strategics are really narrowing their focus on figuring out what their core competencies are to actually continue to grow and scale really their stock. All of these are public companies that need to maintain their value. even Hershey's talked about this they're like reorganizing their internal business to this Hershey's one platform to really focus on each of the different segments that they they have betted on and they're doubling down on snacks so like all of these brands all of these big food and beverage strategic CPG companies they're either combining selling off things doing literally everything under the sun to be successful and maintain their relevancy and maintain their bottom line.
46:57I think for Unilever, which is very interesting because they've had a lot of food brands for a long time, I bet they just love the beauty and skincare margins. Those 80 to 90 % margins are probably a lot better than the food ones. So much better than food.
47:10Daniel Solomons:Yeah. And also, as we said, everything is beauty and wellness now. So it's pretty smart. Pretty smart. And I mean, one of the things that we always talk about too is just these big corporations in food are this messy middle where they're not the premium emerging brands and they're also not private label which is really winning dollar share right now and we have a good example of that actually because a very i think kind of like this unlikely force is killing it secretly and private label and has been and they just launched a new line of their private label so this is we're talking about GoPuff here.
47:53Love GoPuff. I use GoPuff a lot. It's great. It's the quick delivery service that's in mostly major metropolitan areas. So they have four distinct private label tiers, basically all everyday essentials, basically premium, elevated versions, good now, which is health and wellness, and now Crave Shop, which is all indulgent treats, which I personally love that they're betting on people wanting these treats. And I think it makes a lot of sense for GoPuff where you might be in a fun state. You're at home. You really need – you got a craving.
48:32Daniel Solomons:I love how you framed it like that. I'm like – I was more thinking like your friend just went through a breakup and you immediately have to order them, you know, like something adult. Okay, so either you're high or you're sad. High or sad. Either way, you'll want a sweet treat. Or both. Or both. Arguably both. So the Crave Shop, they're doing a few things that are cool. One, they're collaborating with a brand that was in the press release, which is very interesting that this is a branded private label. They're partnering with Wodo, which is like an edible cookie dough company, to have a cookie dough product.
49:12They're doing ice cream bubbles, poppable frozen desserts. They're doing fun cotton candy flavors like dill pickle.
49:22Daniel Solomons:Yeah, that's not it for me. That's a hard pass. If you're under the influence, it might be. True. These are all very impulse purchase coded. Oh, yeah. I mean, they know their audience. I was really fascinated to see that nearly 20 % of GoPuff orders already include one of their private label items. That stat was really surprising to me. Insane stat. But definitely a growing segment to watch out for. Huge. Speaking of a... Oh, God. Speaking of a growing segment. Jesus Christ. My mother listens to this. I'm keeping that in. Oh, I'm keeping that in too. Let's talk about testosterone.
50:09Daniel Solomons:We're talking about testosterone. We're talking about a testosterone-boosting supplement company called Mars Men because men are from Mars. That's literally why it's called that. I'm an idiot. That makes sense. Really leaning into the gendered – all of the gendered attributes. Hell, yeah. Mars Men is only an 18-month-old supplement company, and they just raised$27.5 million Series A from El Caterton, which if you've heard that name recently, it's because they also were the majority stake investors in good culture recently, but they're also just the largest global consumer focused investment firm.
50:49Daniel Solomons:They backed Peloton, Nutri-Vol, which we've already mentioned, Milk Bar, they're big. So they just raised a lot of money and that makes sense because they're doing really well. They have a$100 million run rate. They're already profitable, which is so wild in CPG at this early. and they have 400 ,000 plus customers. Yeah, it's because of supplements. So tell me about these supplements, Nate, because I don't feel well-versed in testosterone. I'm barely well-versed in testosterone, if I'm going to be honest. But it's got all these ingredients that I like. Oh, my God. It's got horny goat weed, because of course it does.
51:24It's got boron. It's got zinc. It's got, I can't pronounce some of these other stuff. It's got ancient herbs. Fenugreek. Yeah, I know what that is. but it's supposed to support energy vitality and recovery it's got no synthetic compounds and it's 100 drug-free natural because what manosphere product wouldn't be 100 drug-free natural it supplements and it does really fit into i think it fits into like two different spaces that you know might be concentric circles but it fits really i think like the tech bro side of the world fair like biohacking biohacking optimization peak performance so i can sit at my desk and vibe code for hours it's great i still have abs for some reason even though you're sitting for 18 hours a day and then the other side is like again i think the circles align here but the manosphere world the the joe rogans of it all the people who want to be peak quote-unquote male performance situation.
52:28Daniel Solomons:Yeah, I mean, the copy on the website is, so their money-back guarantee is, reclaim your masculinity or money-back guarantee. How do you prove that? I'm sorry. Do you send them your sperm counts? I'm going to order this. I'm going to order it, and I'm going to, in 90 days, say, I didn't reclaim my masculinity. I'm so sorry. I need my money back. Like, I don't know what that means. Apparently these supplements are studied, but it's, it's very vibes heavy in that they're really relying on this one finding that is pulling so much weight for them, which is from a 2007 study, which says that testosterone levels have dropped 1 % per year since 1980.
53:17Daniel Solomons:And that is like the narrative of the entire men's wellness category, honestly, is like, we're all losing testosterone. You too, Jenna. Me too. And I'm suffering for it. I can tell. The gains are abysmal. But they're really relying very heavily on that narrative that men are becoming less manly and we need to do something about it, But we can't go to TRT clinics. We can't rely on pharma. We have to go to natural whatever, this natural pharma thing that is really running like the whole wellness sphere right now. Yeah, it's interesting because, like, I think about this story and I think about the liver king, that schmuck who was, like, promoting eating liver to boost your testosterone and remove electronics from the bedroom and sleep on wood and do all this stuff.
54:12And it turns out he was just roided up beyond compare and, like.
54:17Daniel Solomons:Who would have thunk? I don't know. Clearly people want this and maybe need this. I'm no testosterone expert. But I do think the rhetoric around this brand feels a bit dangerous. It's interesting because there's been a lot of launches recently for women that look like this. A lot of hormone balancing products. The women's products are much more focused on balance and leveling out. and the men's stuff, it leans more extreme. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. But it's an interesting response. I feel like it's like for the first time, women were like, oh, we're finally getting the recognition and understanding that we deserve from some of these companies that women's hormones are objectively more complicated than men's hormones.
55:12Daniel Solomons:That is like a scientific fact. So we're getting some products that are specifically designed for female hormones. And then these manly men come out and they're like, well, we want ours. That's what it feels like to me. I mean, do I think that testosterone levels are dropping? That does appear to be true. Like that's not, I think that there are a lot of factors that play into that. And maybe these supplements are really helpful for that. That is entirely possible. What I more have an issue with is the framing of the brand and some of the claims it's making and the way that it's making those claims.
55:48Daniel Solomons:It doesn't feel like a health brand or a wellness brand. It feels like a masculinity brand. Those are different things to me. Yeah, I think that's a really good point. Like this might work just as well as another brand just marketing a little bit differently. And look, I guess a lot of guys might want that or feel like that's what they need and want. But to be honest, I bet a lot of issues with testosterone, microplastics probably are an issue. Yeah, like environmental. But also like diet. Like you can't just, this is my issue with a lot of the supplement industry is they either directly or at least indirectly position it as like this is the fix.
56:35When it's like, what the fix really is, is often lifestyle. Lifestyle. It's fitness, it's exercise, it's diet, it's sleeping well. Like there's other aspects to it. And sometimes the supplements, like getting onto these supplements make you want to do all these changes. But I just feel like we're so geared towards convenience and a quick fix, at least here in the States.
57:00Daniel Solomons:the irony of it being called the lifestyle category is not lost on me this is trying to be a fix for it's like you can do this instead of fixing your actual lifestyle and habits yeah if you really want to increase your testosterone levels maybe don't take a supplement but like get off clod code and go outside right maybe you just need some vitamin d pun intended so much of the supplement space really preys off of our desire for a quick fix and it's disappointing but l catterton believes in them so they might do really well and honestly like very impressive growth uh that is wild yeah crazy oh this episode was such a whirlwind i can't even believe and we didn't cover there was so much more news this week i know we always say that but there actually was so much more news this week, including a headline that we will end up covering next week, but I'll tease now, which is that Create, a creatine wellness supplements brand just raised$20 million.
58:10Daniel Solomons:And that also feels pretty tied to what we were just talking about. So stay tuned for next week to learn more about the creatine space, which is, there's so much to say there as well. Check out the newsletter for all the stories from this week that we didn't mention. thank you again to daniel solomons from update for being an amazing guest this week follow us on instagram at express checkout and be sure to review this podcast and give us five stars it's really helpful thanks everyone bye
From the publisher
Welcome back to another episode of The Curious Consumer! This week we sit down with Daniel Solomons, CEO of Update—the caffeine-free energy drink that caught Kim Kardashian’s eye organically before she became a full creative partner. We break down the science behind paraxanthine, the surprise of 4,000+ Walmart doors, and what it means to build a brand around a completely new ingredient.
We also cover every Kardashian-Jenner in CPG this week (yes, all of them)—Kylie’s pivot from vodka soda to beauty hydration powder K2O, Khloe’s new Khloud protein tortilla chips, and Lemme finally launching a multivitamin after 17 other SKUs. Plus: the Hershey reformulation saga, McCormick’s $45B acquisition of Unilever’s food business, goPuff’s surprisingly successful private label expansion, and Mars Men—an 18-month-old testosterone supplement brand already at $100M run rate. Let’s get into it!The Breakdown
00:00 Intro
0:05 Interview with Daniel Solomons (Update Energy)
20:28 Kylie's K2O Beauty Hydration Powder
27:20 Khloud Protein Chips
30:39 Lemme Launches a Multivitamin (Finally)
32:50 The Hershey/Reese's Reformulation Drama
44:43 McCormick Buys Unilever's Food Business ($45B)
47:50 goPuff's Private Label Expansion
50:10 Mars Men: $100M Testosterone Supplement Brand
58:26 Wrap-up
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