How Scammers Use Deepfakes, Fake Calls & OTP Fraud | Sunil Bajpai | FO543 Raj Shamani

0:00So we've prepared this big board. So explain me how the scam happened. In all of these cases, the same elements would play out. What? That there is somebody with authority who tells you that there is a problem. And the best part is the scammer is a friendly person. Otherwise, you would not fall for it, no? So every year, we lose 54 ,000 crore to scams. We will have many more. Cause about 10 % people only ever report. And this online scam industry is about$1.03 trillion per annum. So this is about 0.9 % of the world GDP. Explain me this industry first. Who starts this? What are the steps involved?

0:42First is procurement. They source information about you, your phone number. So there are on the dark web available. So that's a sourcing cost. Then manufacturing. There are toolkits available, websites available. Voice cloning tools available. whatever you want to do. But manufacturing means what? It has to reach the population. Also distribution. Distribution is SMS calls, social media, websites. These are the distribution channels through which you reach the victim. How much can you buy an information for or like a number call? A rupee, two rupees per number. What weakness do they identify? So fear and greed is what they usually work on.

1:23So, you know, at one stage, you asked what could be done. First is the alarm. Something somebody initiated, you did not. Second is they'll keep on saying it's urgent. Because it is when you are acting hastily, you will make a mistake. Third is if you are acting out of fear, there is a problem. Then is it irreversible? That's what you should ask yourself. And that's what can help you maybe stop yourself. And the action is required is very simple. Cut the call. On an average, more than 77 % people in India get more than three scam calls a day. Yes. So how do you know? Your pizza seller sell that information?

2:02Did that food delivery app sell your information? Did that credit card guy sell your information? You have no idea. So how do you hold anyone accountable?

2:21It takes less than a minute, but it means a lot to us. And to listen to the audio experience of this episode, please follow us on Spotify. Last year, Indians lost more than 22 ,000 crore rupees to scammers. And the people falling for these scams are smart, successful doctors, engineers, retired officers, even lawyers and judges. Because in just 90 seconds, a scammer can put your brain in so much panic that you stop thinking straight. Our today's guest is Sunil Bajpai, Chief Trust Officer of Tanla Platforms. He spent 30 years in Government of India, most of it at Tri, where he wrote the rules that became a global standard for stopping spam calls and messages.

3:05In this episode, we'll discuss why do victims keep paying more money even after the first payment feels like a mistake? What is digital arrest? And how does a fake officer, a fake warrant and a fake court hearing feel completely real? How is Tanla using AI to catch scams within seconds? And can India's new data protection law fix this at the root? Watch this episode till the end. And to know more about Tanla platforms, check the link in the description.

3:40Tell me, you are Chief Trust Officer. Yes. A very simple question on this. How to build trust?

3:50How to build trust? What are the components of trust? There are many.

4:01And first let's start with the question, why trust? Why is trust required at all? Then how we can build trust? Trust is required for people to work together. If we did not want to work together, no trust was necessary. Fair enough? Yeah. All colonies, even of animals, they require, they trust each other. Human beings in primitive villages also, when the villages started to form, they trusted each other. Why did they trust each other? they trusted each other because

4:41if you broke the trust there were consequences for you to bear that was as simple as that yeah right if we are 20 of us living in a community and one person tries to misbehave breaks the trust the 19 others will beat him up and throw him out and he gets eaten up by the lions right so trust was automatic in such communities when the communities became larger trust became a problem so city scale what do you do you don't know them and people can create problems so hundreds of years ago you started writing letters of introduction Raj is well known, he writes a letter of introduction, this guy is good, you can treat him yeah he's a friend of mine and i take that yeah somebody who knows you will trust so the trust started transferring right then came institutions they built trust banks started issuing currency notes rather than the promissory notes that were issued by gold merchants right it became institutional i proved my age by showing a school living certificate which was issued by an institution that people could trust.

6:07So, institutions became trust markers. Right? Banks were trusted. Why? Because banks built huge buildings. You see all the banks impressive buildings. They made the investment in the costliest parts of the business district. You look at your BKC. Everywhere. Everywhere. London. Two miles, so many banks. You operated out of that. You had large infrastructure, you know, this bank's building, that bank's building because infrastructure doesn't walk away. Yeah. Right? So you are operating in a way that an other fly-by-night operator cannot. Right? So if I promise and I can't take my building away, then I must keep my promise.

6:56Otherwise, people will come and beat me up or take over the building. Right? So one way to build trust is to is to make an offer which somebody who is faking it cannot do. We'll start with the board. And so we've prepared this big board and we will ask you to explain us these large frauds or scams which has happened in our country. These are the scams which made it to the news which are the big frauds. So explain me how the scam happened. Like why such A. Intelligent people B. Educated people C. People who were not very vulnerable still got scammed and with such insane big numbers So which one do you want to start with first?

7:50We could start with any. We could start with this case. Mr. S.P. Oswald's case. So what happened in this case? So in this case he was duped seven crores as this says right and in this he was told that his adhaar has been misused for some fraudulent activities i don't recall maybe some some drug or some money something and that's the problem that other card is being used for some for something else For some nefarious activity. Some drug activity. Yeah. Okay. And then there was a court hearing and all kinds of things happened. The Chief Justice also appeared. Where? On camera. And he faced him. No, explain me from scratch.

8:44Okay. So it's like there was this person, S.P. Oswal, who is a big textile business owner. Yes. And a Padma Bhushan winner. He's a Padma Bhushan winner. Yes. okay yes he's a respectable man intelligent man and a man who has seen life because he's 80 plus right so he's not a kid who was caught not at all okay so he gets a call from some random person appearing to be a police person yeah some CBI officers and all that okay and and I want to point out that in all of these cases the same elements would play out what that there is somebody with authority who tells you that there is a problem. And the best part is, you see, in the compressed news stories that we get, we hear about coercion.

9:37We hear about the arrest and the trauma. That's all real. But the scammer really is a friendly person. He tells you that there is a problem, but he knows that you are not at fault okay he will help you out that's where the story begins otherwise you would not fall for it no then he keeps building the story and he keeps giving you more and more details and like a movie that becomes complicated and the hero finds another obstacle then another solution and another bigger one and another solution and it goes up and down till it finally resolves. In these cases, it all resolved in a bad way with the victim losing money.

10:30So somebody pretending to be a CBI officer calls you and then asks you to do what? So he will tell you that Raj, there is a packet sent from your name. It bears your Adhaar number. Is this your Adhaar number? Yeah, yes. Is this your address? Yes. so they will have all kinds they have all this information they have all this information and then they will tell you that a parcel was booked yesterday and in routine check it's been found, it contains drugs now you are the criminal, suspect and you will be in the jail obviously because exporting narcotics out of the country, neither it is legal here and if you are exporting it to a country where it is like Singapore it's death that is the penalty there.

11:25No questions asked. If you try to sell drugs in Singapore So they call you and tell you that it's coming from Singapore or you were selling it. Or you were sending it to Singapore. I'm just saying that it could be anything. Okay. They will make it even bigger. Yeah. It could be anything. It could be small. It could be big or whatever it is. They'll read out sections of the law to you which are true. Okay. If you committed that. but you didn't and they will tell you that the act has happened right and this the prime suspect is you so what will you do what will be your reaction it's like I have not done it and correct yeah yeah and that but it's your adha isn't it it's your address isn't it which is true and and sent to so and so your known person maybe yeah the other person in detail also they would.

12:18They might have. Why not? Then what happens? Now, if this is true, now think about that small probability that it's true. Right? Like a heart attack coming on. Right? What should you do? Should you treat it as a false positive or should you treat it as a false negative? No, I would get paranoid. That's the only rational response. Right? that there is a one in ten thousand possibility one in a million possibility but if this is real I do not want this trouble yeah and especially for this man it will be too much because he the Padma Bhushan is like my years of reputation stake and everything will be correct correct so what will you do do you have options really no because I you know we discussed that the false negative missing something serious and calling it nothing is because it is it is the disaster yeah right you have to avoid that so you accept now he will also tell you very sweetly that we know you are not involved there have been other such cases and we have helped them out sir and we will help you you will have to appear in court there is an arrest warrant already issued unfortunately by now so they have an arrest warrant as well yeah and it's fake like fake arrest warrant on my name yeah they will tell you read it out to you it will be correctly worded and they will read out all the laws to you and that's how you will get invested in but can't I like just at this point cut this and like call my lawyer yeah you can but people don't do that people don't do that this case happened in 2024 and soon after that in October the Prime Minister came on on one episode of Man Ki Baath and he said you know Ruko Socho Fair Action Law actually that works better than anything else the Ruko part is important if you stop you know the entire emotional machinery gets engaged in about 90 seconds and stays engaged in the beginning very strongly if you don't act if you don't believe if you stop for 2 minutes the effect begins to wave right but in first 90 seconds only the amygdala will get hijacked yes precisely it gets hijacked and then you are not thinking you are under the control yes you are under the control of a very very primitive portion of your brain not your frontal cortex but the amygdala and I'm involved but then okay what do they say to keep me on phone and like give me because let's say somebody calls pretends to be a CBI officer and asks you for and tells you that XYZ parcel was going on your name and there was drugs involved and now you're the prime suspect till now let's say that person's believing also okay and rational reaction lot of people who have lot to lose will react to it right now the next obvious thing for a large businessman like him should be let me call either local police or call like my lawyer or someone right or no is it not that obvious no no it should be what he should do right What do they do that he is not called his lawyer?

16:15They have kept him emotionally charged and engaged. And therefore, the ups and downs happen very fast in this sequence. They'll tell you there's nothing wrong. Then next moment they'll say, no, something has gone wrong. The case has got escalated. It has reached here. It has become more problematic. You will have to talk to the Narcotics Bureau now. We will put you in touch with them. The arrest warrant has now been issued. The arrest warrant will, news will not be given to you when you just contacted. That's when only the parcel has been detected. But things move fast in this world, no? Okay, so step one is your Aadhaar card was Misused.

16:56Misused. And it was on a parcel which had drugs or something else. So you are the prime suspect. That's step one. so far step two is harmless okay step one is harmless then step two is all of a sudden we have gotten a call from narcotics department they are also tracking you in the drugs confirmed and this is is it happening while I am still on the call yes yes and they will tell you don't move stay there the team is gone dispatch to arrest you we will hold it we will try to we must act fast now we don't want the damage to become worse right so let's act fast so they will keep urging you to act fast and act fast on what on whatever they are suggesting right what should you do if this happens talk to the narcotics tell them the circumstances of what happened or did not happen and and stop the warrant from being issued or file a case in the court or this or that whatever they will give you all kinds of options and but they'll say that the team has gotten out of the police station to come arrest me maybe they will use that ploy they will decide what ploy to use based on how you are acting at that moment ok people buy that yes I mean it's unbelievable that they lost so much money but they did ok so then step 2 is narcotics then then they will

18:33then they will tell you that you know there is an officer you know if we bribe him at this stage maybe it will work so are you open for bribing sir my thought advice is that you give a decision it will be in a million for someone who has crores a million a million

19:01that is the first stage right so it doesn't stop there no no no it will not stop it has to reach these crores no people have been under digital as for 6 months 6 months 137 transfers all adding up to crores of rupees that's also happened so first you make the money transfer and then they will they will say whatever because you bribed the wrong guy he said you have bribed you think you can bribe me now you are a criminal you really are a criminal because you bribed a government officer even if the narcotics case was fake the bribery case is real but you transferred the money to a police officer's account now you will be arrested for bribing a government officer doing his job even if he was mistaken even if you are able to prove that I did not send that parcel Raj sent it on and Raj is caught but I did bribe someone and that they have it on the recording you have transferred money from your account but that account was become fake guy to someone you believe he is the police officer and he is the one who has got incensed now bribe more bribe his boss get out of here get out of this get out of that they will keep you engaged and the human mind works in strange ways if you and I are sitting in a railway station or an airport we may not talk to each other if we start talking we will continue talking right if you offer me a cup of tea and I order biscuits later I will share the biscuits with you right we are invested same thing plays out here you paid one and a half lakhs you want to believe that this guy tried to help you it's only a temporary setback because that belief preserves your mental image of yourself as a sane person right you are invested in that a Padma Bhushan I mean I have great regards for a person like him and for others right I'm not saying that that they were foolish they acted in the only way human beings are known to act the only way in which human beings are designed to act and we can explore this okay and why evolutionarily that was important so they have a mental image now to protect.

21:56So what? Another 5 lakhs? Okay. The more you keep transferring, the more and more you keep getting into the narrative, the more and more you defend the narrative. But what do they say the next time? Once you have 1.5 lakh and let's say 10 lakhs more. So sometimes the chain will break and the guy will go away. Right? Those are the cases you don't hear about. They are the ones that add up to 54 ,000 crores that the Supreme Court mentioned. Right? Some few will continue as all the, you know, long tail. But what do they say next is what I'm trying to understand. Now, now bribe who? Now this thing has reached court.

22:40Now this thing has reached court. So you have to bribe the judge as well. Maybe or face the judge at least. Right? And your cases, Your crime will be read out in front of the judge. The judge will pass an order. Right? I ask you to give a personal bond. Of a large amount. Then you don't have a friend you want to talk to. To post that bond amount. This scammer will say I will give you. You have a bail bond. You have a bail. Now you have a bail. So this will continue. Until it will continue. And the amount of money you have, if you have it, you will do it. And this is how it works. That is why that RUKO part is important.

23:34If you didn't transfer the first one and a half lakhs, the rest will not happen. So this is one type of case. Yeah. This is digital arrest. This is one type of... there are many other ways in which this industry works. So look at this. This is the heart case. What happened in this one? In this case, the daughter was supposedly involved in sex trafficking. Right? No money was paid in this case. But the trauma was so high. Now this is important. The trauma was so high that she lost her life. On digital arrest? No, no, there was no digital arrest. It's a fake emergency case where the daughter is supposedly involved in sex trafficking.

24:22The mother is told to pay up and she's told to go home and all that. She reaches home and dies. Money is not actually paid. There is no money mentioned in this case. She paid. she got a heart attack because she couldn't believe that the daughter was involved in this the stress reached such high proportion the daughter was fine nothing ever happened to her she never did anything she was nowhere caught the entire thing was fake do you have kids? I have so if your son or daughter you get a call from some random person that your son's involved in money laundering daughter's involved in XYZ cases would you not call your son and daughter first?

25:07Not always reachable. That's an assumption. No, that I can reach the people I want to reach. But first you'd be like, okay, make me speak to my kid. Yes, if you stop to think and decided what is happening here and how to take action maybe you will not fall in trap. She also was not she didn't actually transfer any money right. She maybe headed home to speak to her daughter or to figure out where the daughter is or what is happening. She simply lost her life. She simply lost her life. There was one case in which in which after they cleaned out all the money from the parents they told the victim to go and look after their parents.

26:03Get out now. The son is is unaware that he has been arrested or that he is in any trouble. The parents have been under stress. The parents have been cleaned out. Now that they are cleaned out he says go and look after your parents. Because they will have because they will have they will be in stress and this guy reaches home and finds that look look what has happened. But by then all the money the money was already transferred then he alerted the son that's an act of kindness that you go and look after your parents we just did this horrible thing to them so now go and so now they are showing their moral compass so the interesting thing is that some of these people are victims themselves the scammers they are not they are not the perpetrators their bosses are the perpetrators of the problem they are acting on instructions and they themselves could be victims 6700 such people have been rescued by the Indian government from Cambodia and Myanmar Myanmar, Thailand, that area right and how somebody took out 58 crores because 50, taking like 50 ,000, 10 ,000, 1 lakh, 5 lakh rupees is one case 58 crores out of somebody so this is the largest one that happened right 72 year old business man same playbook same things repeated with variations right and this stands out as 58 crores it's nothing startling it's the same thing for 54 ,000 crores or maybe 5 lakh crores this is just the outlier 58 crore from 1 % not just in our 58 crores yes amazing in a country where 0.01 % people probably don't have that money yes but everybody is equally affected and the one who has self-selects to become the headline that's just it so every year we lose 54 ,000 crore to scams that we are aware of.

28:25Probably we will have many more. Much, much more. So probably India is losing, let's say probably 1 lakh, 2 lakh crore in scams. Yes, correct. Your estimate is right. But maybe 2.5 lakh crores because how this estimate has arrived at is about 10 % people only ever report. 7 % to 10 % people. And 24 ,000 crores was reported figure for one of the years. multiply by 10 or 14 and you can you can you can you know kind of triangulate this number also

29:08the world economy is large and this scam industry online scam industry right not the cyber crime industry which is even larger or scam industry which is even larger than that this online digital telecom enabled communication enabled kind of scam industry is about 1.03 trillion trillion dollars per annum this is an estimate put out in a report by gasa 1 trillion. Yes, 1.03 trillion dollars. People are losing in scams every year. Every year, yes. So this is about 0.9 % of the world GDP. Right? To arrive at a country's figures, like India, multiply the GDP by that number, 0.9. and you will get 2.5 lakh, 3 lakh crores and of which 7 to 10 % would be reported so you will get to 24 to 36 thousand crore estimate actual numbers which are reported so that's how you can see the scale of the problem and that's why it's an industry and we will we can perhaps discuss that so explain me this industry first you said so who are the who starts this who are the people behind it what are the steps involved how do they because if something is happening on a trillion dollar scale it has to be organized it can't be like five guys sitting out of probably jamtara is just making random calls and you know taking on money so it's definitely not that so explain me this mechanism yes so let's let's try to understand it like a normal industry you would understand okay right what are the few things that happen a business an industry or a business will have procurement will have manufacturing okay will have distribution will have fulfillment and we'll have treasury operations.

31:48These will be the normal things you will divide a business into. Now for this scam industry, the TAM, worldwide TAM, is$1 trillion. So this kind of analysis should apply to them as much as it does to anybody else. Okay. Right?

32:11So, first is procurement. If you want to sell burgers, you need potato. So you need to buy potato. You need to buy good quality potato. And that's where it starts. And you need to buy spices. Breads and whatever. That's sourcing. That's procurement. Then they will be manufacturing. There will be a process of converting. You don't sell potatoes. You procure it to make burgers or meat to build burger patties. in so you will have a manufacturing then you will have distribution you will have to put it uh open many stores advertise uh collect orders online whatever you know yeah and then you need and then you then you'll have fulfillment somebody places an order the burger has to reach that person and money has to be collected and all that and then all the money is to be collected and used and whatever.

33:13So that's the treasury operations. Like they have this banking operation. Somebody has to be responsible for the trillion dollars which will ultimately be collected. Right? So this is how you would think of a business. So let's think of the scam industry in the same way. They source information. Okay, procure information. Yeah, about you. Right? Your phone number information you you know we mentioned that they have your adha number or some your address so so there are on the dark web and otherwise uh available a lot of information which you pay for and you can collect it right so that's a sourcing cost if you did a analysis if you wrote the books of account for for a business like that there will be the sourcing cost okay right then manufacturing.

34:10Now manufacturing is highly automated here. There are there are toolkits available right websites available scripts available to run certain operations voice cloning tools available whatever you want to do. so the manufacturing the machinery that you can use this to construct a scam is the manufacturing part that's also available meaning I didn't get it what is the manufacturing in this? how do you convert the potato to the burger? yeah so how do you convert information into a scam okay right so I need to reach out to you how do I do that? and I need to have a believable story i need to have some assets which i can uh can use utilize right if i want to put malware on your phone uh i don't know how to make malware i don't have the tech skills yeah right so there are people who have created those tech solutions okay which will so i can source the malware from somewhere and put it i can create a like shopify can create a shop for you there are tools available to create scam websites for you okay right so that's manufacturing okay but I would need people also I would need people also who would scam it on my behalf yeah yeah of course so the machinery a lot of it works on its own so it doesn't require people because these are sophisticated tools which are available but then people are also required you are right somebody has to dress up like a policeman and show up and all that so those operations somebody has to call also somebody has to call if a call is involved and that's part or distribution though reaching out to people right okay right now only the script is getting prepared yeah yeah yeah so you are getting ready to the manufacturing is there but manufacturing means what it has to reach the the population also distribution distribution is SMS as a channel calls calls social media links random links websites social media platforms this is these are the distribution channels through which you reach the victim or your target okay right like any normal business does they do exactly the same I have so many doubts on this okay one by one we'll cover so first is you said procurement information so these scammers would need a lot of information about people like you and me okay then so where do they get this information from where do they buy your adhar card details your credit card details your email account your phone number your health data etc yes so it's partly a manufacturing problem partly a sourcing problem and let me explain that sometimes you would tell the adhar number yourself when they call up they can trick you into telling your Adhaar number right so they only need to start engaging with a phone number perhaps right but very often they will have other information but they would need phone number also no they will need phone number phone numbers are available Raj how do you think people send so much spam right so where are they available is what I'm asking like who buys them who sells them or were there no laws around it so people can just download data from where no no no there have been laws there are protections and and at one time some of these lists got built by registering to access it officially right like like telemarketers were expected back in early 2015-16.

38:28They were expected to register on a TRAI portal and declare who they are. Then they could get the preferences of people, right? That they don't want to hear from you. So when you get the preferences, you are supposed to scrub it. you are not supposed to call them but some unscrupulous people registered not for calling you but for just getting access to their telephone number and your preference then sold multiple copies of that to into the market right how much can you buy an information for or like a number call

39:12so I don't know what the going price is yeah but it will be a rupee two rupees per number number adhar card whatever adhar card adhar number is more difficult to obtain but not impossible because everybody keeps a copy of your adhar which is against the law right you're not supposed to keep copies of other people's adhars but everybody asks where can I see your adhar and then photocopies it and keeps it and the hotel will keep it my point is on an average it's more than 77 % people in India get more than three scam calls a day. Yes. And that's data. That's publicly out there. Almost every day, we are getting more than three calls and some people get way more.

40:03And it starts the day you buy a SIM card. Okay. Depending, okay, probably SIM card you get less, but the day you buy credit card or a car or something like a phone or something expensive then you're gone then you're doomed so how do you know like did your pizza seller sell that information did that food delivery app sell your information did that phone guy sell your information did that car guy sell your information did that credit card guy sell your information you have no idea how do you hold anyone accountable you know i was i was speaking to and this happened this happened when you forget speaking okay this i'll give you an incident i've said this multiple times this is pre-pandemic one of the guys who was selling me sim cards okay one from these top three large companies he came to me and he said ran he just came to me and be like you know this is the number which is an exciting number which has come last has five zeros and stuff like that so you should buy it and i said okay fine i will buy it but at that time because I was running a company on my name there were already three cards issued right for one for my company one which is old one is now the new number so he said on one name you can't have more than five so you should not buy this extra number on your name because three has already been exhausted I was like what do I do he said I'll get you new Aadhaar card and I was like meaning he said I'll get you someone else's Aadhaar card in 50 rupees and buy this number on that person's name and then later whenever you want to transfer it on your name you do it or if you don't want to do it you do it buy as many sim card as you want for 50 rupees in adhar card and like i cut that guy off i blocked him immediately because i i sent some sort of scam and i didn't want to be part of it so but my my point is some random guy selling me an Aadhaar card of some another person for 50 rupees openly it's that easy so imagine these guys were sourcing information for living for them it'll be scoring Aadhaar card information would be like for 1 rupees 50 rupees I'm getting I'm getting a card so there will be many people who would give an Aadhaar card willingly for 500 bucks of their own 1000 rupees 5 ,000 rupees we are a poor country and many people may not even know what has happened right I can go to a person if I offer an honest person 5 ,000 rupees to misuse his adharkar deal he will say go jump in a lake even if he is poor right but if I tell him that you won 500 rupees lottery or 100 rupees lottery right just give me your adharkar deal all I need to do is keep a record who I gave this 100 rupees to.

43:09The easiest way I can do it is to write the Aadhaar card in my form. Here is my form. Give me a copy and let me write your name and Aadhaar and take 500 bucks. You won 500 bucks. It's fine. I can't give it to you unless I can authenticate you. Even 100 rupees is more than enough. Right? So, you can procure it for 100 bucks and you can sell it 20 times, 200 times. The scale is important. So, So you source how many Aadhaar cards you can source, anywhere from anywhere. Where people are scanning your Aadhaar. All those touch points, lacks of them in the country. Potential places from where an Aadhaar card can be taken out.

43:51Right? Name, address also is given on Aadhaar. Everything happens. Something happens. Right? And there you are. Now somebody will collect it, clean it, verify everything is alright. telephone number matched to your Aadhaar then sell it that is the sourcing the first part we talked about procurement sourcing is that also a racket so it is a racket it's not a racket it's an industry within the industry right it's a simple thing all you have to do is find whichever way some Aadhaar numbers and names and all that people will give it because they don't I mean they don't hesitate in giving the adha.

44:38But Jesse you said this is an industry right? So there's procurement, manufacturing, distribution, fulfillment, treasury, five steps. Somebody must be running this. There'll be a top boss. No. And the top boss would have No, no, no. This is a decentralized organization where these are procured as services. But the treasury You don't grow you don't grow potatoes. You buy them. Who grows you don't care there is a mandi where it is available that mandi in this case might happen to be on the dark web or might even be available on a CD from somewhere right okay so but that some guy like some top individual must be the top gun for procuring all of these no because if it's a no because it is not if there are five steps to a trillion dollar industry probably a billion dollar industry or like small part one percent or five percent five billion dollar industry would be just sourcing information.