How Ultra Rich Invest: Billion-Dollar Bets & Wealth Secrets | Srini Sriniwasan | FO533 Raj Shamani

37:43He put fund managers in a form of fund. He said that you invest across the globe and continue to generate returns for the next few generations of our country. This is the sovereign wealth fund concept. Similarly, many of these other countries believe in social security. What do we mean by social security? You will have a age that you have earned, but you are older, you are a dependent. So they encourage you to save while you earn, which is what is called retirement savings. Or pension fund, which they call in India. Many of the developed countries have very large pools of pension money. An earning member starts earning from his 20 or 20 years.

38:33He puts aside money for the next 40 years. Right? All of that money and that money is also earning every year. So, it's compounding into a very large number. So, these countries have very large pension funds. A small country like Norway is the world's largest pension fund. More than a trillion dollars. A trillion dollars. The next largest is actually Japan. United States is number five. Wow. right that's what we are talking about in terms of pension pools of capital that pension fund that is only that is only saving of their own people but in that some money will be like that maybe people are not there or not and they are staying but they are therefore paying for those people tend to live longer now right the average age is much so they have thought about all these things and when that pool of capital keeps on growing then they have to they can't invest all of it in their own country they have to invest in other parts of the world how do we go and invest in other parts of the world or go and invest so many people have in Norway so what do we do then they organize investment management teams that you go and find fund manager and give them the money in a contract basis so that they can invest whether it is in the public equity market in that market or you invest in the private market in real estate, private credit so this is what we discovered and then the third very large pool of money is actually insurance money you have to take a life insurance policy you have to pay insurance sir you give every year 25 ,000 rupees when you are 40 years old you will get 25 ,000 rupees some such number right whatever as a number so you are spending with the money every year so that amount that's a very large amount in insurance companies now if you think about if you have this money or if you have this money every day you will do that you will invest it you will have pressure that money is coming but I have to keep investing it right so you have to find avenues to invest that capital.

41:03We discovered that our big funds like Blackstone and KKR they were getting their money from these pension funds these insurance companies and these sovereign wealth funds and in other parts of the world you know people have very wealthy people have set up what is called endowments that they have their money now they want to put it in various good uses but in the meanwhile it is being invested. Like Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation take it Bill Gates has capital and his money he wants to use that money for charity and various other things but in the middle you can't spend billions overnight so in the meanwhile there is an investment office which invests and the returns of that goes for good charity work so endowment so these are four places we have said this is a huge increase the money is coming so we are reaching the money we also need this money we will get this money so obviously the sales pitch is three first why do you put in India so we are like the sales person for India for all these places we tell them these are the good stuff etc first you convince them about India then you convince them what to do in India and then you have to convince them why you are the right person to do it because if you have a trillion dollars and someone came from India and said you have to invest in India so you said okay I am in the business of investing let me hear him out you'll hear me then you'll say okay the guy has said something you'll forget 10 people that's what you'll do right and let me check whether what he said is true or not let me talk to three other people whom I know who met me in a party what was his experience so next time my like someone goes and says I have heard that the legal system is very bad so now he is more knowledgeable right because he started applying his mind right I have heard that the real estate is a lot of you know so when he starts applying his mind then he will both be positive and negative so important thing is for you when you are selling your idea to understand how much engaged he is just listening to you you know he is not very engaged but he is asking more questions that's a very welcome sign first of all you are asking first of all you are asking your job is to sell your job is to change the negatives how to change the negatives that's our job we are the effectively speaking ambassadors of raising capital for India right I am like that I am like that if I have brought to India for 10 billion dollar global investors I get a peace nice so I feel I have done something which is useful So we go to these steps.

43:57So first, I have told you three things. First is why India? Second is what? Second is what in India? What in India? Third is why you? Yeah. Right. Before that, you gave me a example of Gangotri. Yes. That all the big funds that have a lot of crores, a lot of rupees to put in the world can put in the whole world. Somewhere. Or will they put in India or where they put in. Or they can put in anyone with anyone. Correct. So now when you thought that we will do this work, we will take the money in India, who did you go to the first person? How did you go to that person? How do you know that someone has 10 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000, why will you give time for that?

44:41Who is it? You have asked a very strong question. So, there is a broker in every market. in every thing we need a broker to do everything so we got a financial advisor and at that time our understanding that the most evolved market is the US so I remember that I went to 2005 and then one of those bankers said okay we will help you raise money from these people but it will be a big learning process etc. So then he started opening doors and I went to meet people all over the US at that time. I went to Kansas, Topeka, Cedar Rapids, I don't know. But you decided that the broker is good? See India was not such a fashionable thing.

45:40So unfortunately we didn't have the choice of which broker to choose.

45:51but every meeting that we did we got to learn something how do people think what is their impression about India what is their impression what is their risk what is their impression what is their risk so you start understanding how these people think and then you start doing more work why does this particular of fund behave this way why you know how do they decide ki unka joh capital kaha jana chahiye what unka minimum return expectation kya hai to india ke liya agar woh paisa lagana chate ho woh kehga ki bhai dekho mera itna to minimum banna chahiye iske alawa aap ke haa currency risk hai aap ke haa regulatory risk hai aap ke haa joh hai you know country risk hai to in sub ke liye mein risk premium add karta jauunga to mein if you are ready to earn 7-8 % in America, you are ready to earn 16 % in America.

46:47So you have to understand the process. What is it thinking? Why is it thinking? And what is it thinking about it? What is it thinking about it? It is also studying how many public markets have been put in the private market. And in the private market, how many real estate have been put in private equity, how many private trading have been put in private equity. So you start doing a lot of these work and understanding. and these are very large organizations, right? You can go in one wing, talk about private equity, his knowledge level in India is a little better. You go to somebody else, his knowledge will be low.

47:22But decision making is very, very different. So you have to do your sales process all over again depending upon strategy that you're going for. So you start understanding all of these things. And of course, you also like to be strategic about it, one of my biggest investors is the Abu Dhabi Investment Authority which is the sovereign wealth fund of Abu Dhabi they gave me money in 2011 for the first time but I was going there from 2006 onwards 5 years 5 years don't let me go don't leave right strategic intent that was why see See, oil exporting nations benefit when oil prices are high and India suffers when oil prices are high.

48:17When oil prices are low, India does very well. So, our calculation was simple. Let's go here. They say that your surplus is capital. You put it in a market when your oil prices are down, the market will do well. Not that we have to teach them. They already knew it. but the chances of you getting that capital is better so we went and you know continued keep so you have to keep on going and educating this happened first who gave money? ADIAN INDIA INSTITUTIONS from that before AT &T PENSION FUND 2005 and 2011 in that time we had first fund ever domestic family offices and LIC in 2005 India from India there was a small fund only 450 crore fund 400 crore so the biggest check was given that time I had a private family so I had invested in it and I had a return so on that basis we went to it so first domestic a small family office you had a relationship in that time there was no terminology personal relationships or you know how much did somebody give you if you can't name the person so the largest investor in those days was 5 crores.

49:35So, 5 crores that was the first individual family that money. And where did you put that money? So, that 450 crores fund it was a real estate fund that we raised at that time. And one of the big bets that we had taken is in Goronga East not West a building was building one of the Rahijas was building it. And it was just piece of ground which was all the approvals and that time a lot of international software companies were looking for office space etc so that was that we after that lease and start generating income we will pay it and get money and get it I and my partner both of them and we and we thought that we will do joint venture that we will be a building 50-50, 50 % of the money I will add, 50 % of the money I will add.

50:34If the building will be made, then we will do it. Then there are discussions, we thought that we are thinking that this building will be about 38-39 rupees per square foot. 2006 is the case. But we thought that maybe he will be more flexible on the downside. Then we thought that tomorrow we will not go out of this chair. so we changed in the negotiation and said that we will take it all building yes my mother and my father you will make a building and because we are writing a larger check we have a lot of negotiation we have a call that we have not done that in that time one square foot in our life okay we have also taken that risk How many crore did it take?

51:30At that time we took 234 crore. It took 95 crore in a fund and it took the rest of the bank. It was a building of 8 lakh square foot. So it's a big building. And at that time, a lot of circumstances, as the building was going up, there was a concept of getting a pre-commitment. So one of the global multinationals, we showed that this is a location, this is a building, this is a plans, etc. and that MNC said we will give you a commitment to take one floor every floor was 2 acres so 87 ,000 feet per floor we will take a whole floor we said done we agreed one of the international property advisory firms was involved in that so I remember that we said that the whole building we will sell 37 to 39 rupees.

52:28We had a building that had given us. The market had moved up. So the first tenant who has come to us committed us to 42 rupees. We said, let's go, it's good. It's done. Now we will increase the rate. So this discussion was going on. The next floor and the next tenant took us 50 ,000 square foot. we took it to 42 and 43 so slowly we did it in this case the first one we didn't give it to us we wrote it once again we gave it to us so we had 4 months so we didn't confirm it but we said we were there so the rest of the building started to get it in 41 and 45 we sent it to us and we sent it email baveh dya.

53:21Bawal khaڑا ho gya. Bula unki aadat thay ki baqi loogun ke sath you know they've been dealing with a lot of developers both relationship but we are a fund. We have what is called a fiduciary responsibility. Mane aap ya kai or loogun se paise liye hai or koji baad me aake audit karayga mujhe kya dekhega ki bhai aap ne 42 me isko dya 43 me isko dya 44 me isko dya But why did I sign in 41? Something is... Something is bigger. You didn't have 2 rupees. Private is not coming. This is a chance to get up. And we are saying that you have to give it to me in writing. I am a fiduciary. I am not a developer.

54:06I can do what I feel like. I am a fiduciary. I did a global consulting firm. You understand fiduciary. And we are saying that we are writing them in the book. That's why we have given cancellation order. Then he came. They said, this is the issue. They have been in Asia. Then they confirmed it in the book. Referring to the earlier commitment. So we have to be careful. So we were talking about governance before. These are the things you have to be careful. You have a responsibility. When we raise money, particularly global investors and institutions, everything is open book. You can be questioned on the edition later.

54:42Right? You have to be careful. And how much profit do you have? so we spent 234 crores is what we spent on that building 234 crores and we sold it for 525 crores plus we took out money through what is called lease rental discounting of another 100 crores nice and how much time did it about 4 years time wow so the people are very happy but the point was that if we have to do this we have demonstrated that we needed more capital bigger assets to do that kind of money was not available in India and then global financial crisis everybody's bets are off we will go to that 450 crores how much return did you give in 4-5 years so this was 450 crores the total fund 900 crores And doubled it in 4 years.

55:44Yeah. That's an incredible. No. There were other investments in the fund. If you look at the door to door, then it doubled in 7 years. Okay. 2.2 times. Nice. Still a great return for a lot of people of that scale. Yeah. Right. So nice. So that happened. Now in 2006, you went to international. Yes. So we went to international. Welcome to 2008. I'm going to start a little bit. I really like it. I went to 2008. I went to 2008. six میں گیا میں نے کہا دیکھو یہ میں نے کر دیا and india was in favor at that time in the sense ki you know people wanted to know ki kya ہو رہا ہے and that was the time you know india was india had been opened up for real estate for the first time and software کا naam بننے لگیا تھا and so it was a there was a positive tailwind to india that's why we can take that broker so tell me give me three insights جو آپ نے بولا ki you know, the time you go with a broker, you get a new person, new institution, you learn something new, how do you see India and what happens in India.

56:47So, I have three insights that people in 2006 were thinking about in India and in 2026. How do you see India in 20 years now? How do you see India in 2006? In 2006, people asked me so much about India. How much time do you think India comes from here? What do you think? What is the outlet? I asked this too. What is interesting? In the US particularly, there are many people who have never traveled outside. They have a lot of money. Yes, they have a lot of money. So their world view is limited to their county or their state or whatever it is. So someone came here and they are curious. Even today I am amazed that I meet people with such people.

57:37in the US that they are in a small town with billions of dollars and they don't have to say about the US. They don't have to say about their state. Correct. So when you meet these richest people in the world what are they looking for which probably an average human being or an average investor is not. I think what they look for I am now talking in the capacity of a fund manager is that first of all what kind of track record you have now it is not necessary that you are the best performing fund what is necessary is you are a consistent performer

58:24consistency is very important for them you have gained 18-19 % consistently in the last 10 years and some other fund manager is saying I have gained a 20-20 % chances are that you will get the money consistency is important but then how do new guys actually enter this space that's the difficult part why do we have 5 years we have to tell that we are consistently doing this by the way what are we taking action what are we doing how we manage our business how we manage risk management we need to build familiarity we can't do it with too many people but we target and go and tell them and then hope for the best which is why if you see the root you asked some question how does a new fund manager become a new a new fund manager will have to start with capital which is more risk which is less risk averse family offices some of the domestic institutions so that's how you start your business which you can prove your track record normally that's the route that people have to take your first fund is always going to be the most difficult one and very small typically it will be smaller yes that's the the hardest part is that and the next hardest part is to make sure that that fund performs but then and then slowly slowly like you can't enter so many times investors we don't want to go to managers who are one fund and done why because because they have a lot time if any institutional investor wants to give you that the due diligence process that you have done your organization structure your experience your team how many people have worked in is very important is a team so you don't give money so how many people consistently are working with you for years for years for them high weightage tell me do rich people really rich investors with billions of dollars who has lakhs crores who are smart with money does that give diversity importance importance diversification what I meant diversified investments all in let's go concentrated wealth you said rich insan at the end of the day when an ameer is the first instinct is to preserve how to preserve because he knows that what to build what will you have to buy a paper.

1:01:22Okay. So obviously, he will not do all, he will not put all eggs in one basket. Concentrated bets. He will not do it. He will do asset allocation. See, here's a question. If the world's most ambitious people believe in diversified wealth, they don't believe in concentrate. Because they don't want to preserve it. If you look at the markets today, there is a lot of ultra trend. right i want to give you a chart i was doing this research that in the entire world now Taiwan is a market in the Netherlands, Denmark, South Korea which is now on the boom it's crazy right now if you look at that in Taiwan the whole market largely is a company TSMC in the Netherlands largely is a company 50 % ASML in Denmark largely is a company 39.6 % of the company is one company which is Novo nor Disc.

1:02:21In South Korea, the last company is Samsung, 33.7%. Correct. So, in there… You're talking about index weightage. I'm talking about weightage. Like large countries in which money is going to be a lot. South Korea being at the top of it. Taiwan getting crazy money as well. Yeah. Attracting a lot of international capital. India, there is nothing like that. India's biggest weight is in a company that is 6.4 % 7 % under it is 30-50 % of this big company neither one so we are a very diversified stock market correct and in which countries the money is going to be very concentrated so why is that? which is why?

1:03:05this is the only company you have Taiwan Semiconductor is the AI boom is the factory of the world for the rest of the semiconductor industry anywhere in the world. ASMC, it is the only machine which manufactures machine which makes semiconductors. And it is actually almost like a monopoly. Each of these companies is addressing a world market. Samsung, why? Samsung also for chips. It's one of the world's leading chip manufacturers. So, the companies that you are talking about is addressing world markets. they are not limited to the India market or their own country markets. Right? So, investors are betting on the global demand for their products.

1:03:54And they have a very unique position because there are not many competitors like that. Why Novo Nordisk? GLP. So, you have to see you can have an outsized weight because you are so unique in terms of the product or solution that you are providing. So that's just because it's not about a weightage to Korea. It's about if I want to play the chips business which is the largest company I can invest in Samsung. You know, I always, every time I hear about Samsung, I wonder, I'm very fascinated. Samsung should be studied in depth. The reason is family control company and they better better from a global, professionally managed company and time and again.

1:04:50They've just reinvented themselves again and again. They lead everything. lead where what was from technology phones then consumer electronics then they just yeah it's about work ethos what do you mean you know Korea Korea is a very unique and interesting country in that sense that you know when the Korean economy was in trouble and they would have potentially defaulted on their international obligations the government appealed to the people and people gave their gold from their home this is the idea if you don't see this country you are work ethic and ethos why? it's just how the country is made but that's Korean people right?

1:05:46yeah correct how can a family controlled company do you have to do this in time? in again. Why not do it? You know, you can reinvent yourself if you have the right kind of leadership. While you can admire Korea, you look at Reliance in India. What started off as a small textile company, small polyester filament yarn company, backward integrated into so many things, now they are into one of the world's largest mobile telephony company and then the number of patents that they are filing now, they are amongst the top 20 patent filers now in the recent times. I read a couple of days ago. So, it is possible.

1:06:29But why India doesn't have such global level big brand or global company at this point? We have lots of conglomerates. There's Reliance, there's Tata, there's Birlaz, there's Kotak is also. Obviously, one sector dominating, but still. We have a lot of these institutions which have done well. See, you must understand from an India point of view until 1991 industries in India were artificially protected because international competition was not easily permitted. Right? Even in banking for example since you talked about banks were nationalized after that the private sector licenses were given in 1995 HDFC was one of those the rest of the four were given up and they got acquired by others because they did not do well after that in 2003 license which we got but it is still a very restricted license but now it is changing foreign ownership of banks is now become relaxed so NBD allow you to own a majority DBS so competition is now increasing in manufacturing in other products we did not have competition so if you did not have competition and if your industry was protected you are you don't have an incentive to innovate you don't have an incentive to invest in the future you think it's big You know what?

1:08:16In 1991, when the initial set of reforms were there, there was something called the Bombay Club. It was a club of industrialists who were opposing opening up the economy, allowing imports and so on. Because they were paying their money. Correct. This was the thing. and interestingly enough one of the persons who was leading who was the leading voice of that was Mr. Bajaj why don't open not do it yes right but look at Bajaj world beater today right so it is not like our here is not a possibility right it is a question of what is the you know environment forcing you to do but now it's time I am saying that after that, it's been a long time.

1:09:13We are waiting for it. Yes, we are not saying that we are past. We are not today. I am saying that in 2011, 2012, 2013, the venture capital also got quickly for India. After that, 2014, when we were first unicorn, then money just started flowing. Flip cut, after that, and the money was quickly. Right? Right. Right. In 10-12 years we have seen a crazy technology, global brand, nothing. No one saw a sign that someone is closing. Let's say I'm not saying that somebody can come and beat all around the world. No sign either. Whereas when you look at these companies, which are now globally commanding, right?

1:09:56Your SpaceX just happened, Nvidia, now Anthropic and OpenAI, all these things will go.

1:10:11So I'll give you, I can only hazard a guess, I'm not an expert on the subject. But if you look, you have taken Samsung example, TSMC example. These are hardcore technology companies which were making products not for their home market. Even if they did make for the home market, they were such small market that got cassation. they had to look for the rest of the world and had to be the best in the world to be able to sell in the rest of the world in our case we haven't had the level of investment in R &D that we ought to have had over a country of our nation, of our size secondly we have a very large domestic market so there is a lot of money that you can make in the catering to the domestic market which is I can call it a low hanging fruit doing R &D, creating a new product is hard work right like you said VC came a lot of money how much of it went into completely new product development why because our younger entrepreneurs also see I have Amazon copy flip card Bobby Parker copy lens card India market is so big Amazon doesn't have presence so I can build a business right we said what domestic needs you have to do global But then the rest of the ecosystem also has to enable.

1:11:34In other parts of the world, the collaboration between academics and industry is somewhat much more integrated and deeper. For a variety of different reasons, the way our academic policies worked. It was not possible for some private sector guy to go and tell an IIT Bombay, that you have 10 million dollars, why don't you do something like this? that got enabled only in the last let's say within the 8 or 10 years now wealthy people can donate we don't have incubation centers which help entrepreneurs see entrepreneur initial stages they are very important they are struggling suppose it's a technical product for example they are applying their mind 100 % on that for them to be able to venture capital raise then take licenses for example if you take medical sciences we have a life sciences fund some of those entrepreneurs they just don't have the capability to navigate because it's a medical product it goes into the body there are lots of regulatory oversight as to how the product will eventually make it to market there are multiple levels of trials and approvals and so on and so forth these people don't have that you know skills to do that.

1:12:55Right? And they are small companies. You can't hire an army of guys to go and do all of that. So they need that support. They need that help. Policies have to be enabled to do that. You have experienced me saying, I am going to have a different evaluation criteria for startups which are providing critical solutions for naughty problems in defense. You have made a big statement and you have made a procurement policy. 20 companies are in. defense fund so because you enabled it the realization that that enabling has to be done is absolutely critical but whose problem would you say it is it is our problem we have to solve our problem ourselves by our I mean let me be more specific India says global brand is it government policy problem is it capital risk not to take that problem that our entrepreneurs don't think so much, perspective that global first there are enough ambitious people in the country so that is not entrepreneur problem entrepreneur problem and the other two problems do you think the capital see India is always a capital starved country so it's you guys yeah we are a capital surplus so today So, today you don't have to pay the ambitious people.

1:14:22So, VC also takes money outside. So, domestic capital is not coming to domestic capital. Domestic capital was not risk appetite. You can see that if India's domestic savings in equity markets, now it's about 8-10 % For the longest period of time, it has been stacked up in gold. And real estate. recent it looks like your grandmother was the most successful investor because she bought so much of gold and gold prices have gone up so much right but that's been this philosophy of you know investment philosophy so far and the pools of capital that we have just you know we talked about pension funds and insurance companies and other parts of the world if you look at India what is happening here is a pension fund right so we have EPFO and we have the National Pension Fund.

1:15:17National Pension Fund is about 17 lakh crores right now. EPFO is about 26 lakh crores thereabouts. And growing at 20 % per annum. By 2030 these two put together will be a trillion dollars. Just these two. Where are they? That is the question. Right now they are not investing. Their exposure or investment into venture capital private equity private credit or real estate is zero where do they put it? government bonds majority of it is government bonds or they have put it in as per regulations in ETFs in the public equity markets why? because that's how the regulations have been for them they are permitted to invest 5 % in these alternate assets but they don't have the skill sets to do that what fund do they put it in?

1:16:12what strategy is and that is the risk aversion what I'm saying why do I do something new so that currently the good news is that there is a lot of engagement between industry and these pools of capital to try and channelize this pool of capital in an organized way to these risk assets venture capital is risk investment private credit is risk investment you don't do risk investments they do it so like I said in life sciences we do early stage R &D based companies. You do. We have a fund which does that. So the question is that there is not much capital. So these big pools of capital have to start moving towards some of these things.

1:16:56You know, you'll be surprised. Life Insurance Corporation. Do you know what is this world ranking of LIC? It's amongst the top 10 companies. In terms of size. How much money do they have? Top 10 life insurance companies. how much do they invest in these hardly anything and their capital pool would be insane yeah so you have to there is a lot of lack of risk appetite in regulators minds is it regulator yeah because these are individuals sitting on pile of cash just with that hangover It's a mix of that. Oh, so hangover is a hangover. But it's a regulatory hangover, right? So, before the regulator said that you can't do it.

1:17:46Then you said that you can do it 5 %. If you can do it, then they told you 4-5 years ago. But to implement it, there are so many opportunities that there are not only one money. So, there is a big problem between intention and action.

1:18:09And would you say this hangover is political hangover is more than that it is a famine hangover. That we are many people who are on the capital who are decision makers are afraid that something is wrong so we have to keep it right. That they are afraid that government change or policy change or regulation up and down we are afraid. No, we are independent regulators but it is risk version that what is wrong. This the fear is now that you go and give them a speech that you will win and you will not hear it. They will not hear it. They will not hear it. You should make a benchmark that if you didn't get so much percent of return.

1:18:58Those are things that will evolve. At this point in time we are still dinosaurs in those kind of evolutions. Which country has increased risk appetite in the right time and now has a lot of risky bets? Don't say US because US is a very risk. Like they are very risk forward looking country. Risk appetite is a big deal. Surplus capital plus like in their DNA. American dream is that. The children do that to innovate and see the world and all of them. right so it's a lot of risk taking ability appetite is very strong there are pension funds in you know for example there are dutch pension funds which do a good job and their risk appetite is good their risk appetite is good then there are of course you know in europe there are how is singapore's risk appetite singapore i mean singapore is such a small country but they have so much of surplus capital, right?

1:20:02And they have two sovereign funds. One is GIC, the other is called Temasek. Interesting, Temasek was, you know, when the country started doing very well and the state-owned enterprises, like airlines, they all big companies, they said, they won't work the government, they won't work the government. They won't work the company. And Temasek is running the company and the profits, dividends are investing. both within Singapore and outside Singapore. The GIC as a country Leekwon U ran it so well that the country always had a profit let me put it this way. Capital surplus. That surplus over a period of time built up into a sizable amount and he created this separate institution called Government Investment Corporation of Singapore.

1:20:54And in their charter mandate it is written that the government

1:21:04So the money has to keep on investing and earning more and more and more. You can get the government's money and the government can't take more than 50. You have to put it back to the market. This is written in the charter. So the policies they have made, they are thought 50 years ahead. so we don't have anything like that we don't have two flyers and we don't get two flyers this is our planning then you have to take money and you have to take money here these are all problems after that you have to take money so where the problem is the solution is there is a chance so you recently just like Abu Dhabi and the Korean Pension Fund so when Abu Dhabi Korean Pension Fund India who doesn't see Mumbai or Delhi or Ahmedabad who doesn't compare like this but India who Brazil Vietnam Taiwan South Korea and then after that they give you money what opportunity do they look and real estate specifically because real estate is so they don't have to give you money because they don't have to in real estate for example what we do

1:22:31it's about asset allocation here is a chance to put a certain percentage of what I do I will put in this diversification diversification which meets my risk reward so I will put it so in India global investors have made a lot of money in real estate in the past people you take a company like Blackstone they did what they did whatever office building was built they bought it right 35-40 million square feet buildings all across Delhi, Bombay, Bangalore they bought it and they bought it and they made billions of dollars of profit so people see that the price is made here Blackstone and Brookfield has done.

1:23:19We are in residential high yield credit in a multiple billion dollars we have put in and made money. That is what we go and tell them. That in India, home ownership is so low that in the next 10-15 years you will have to make a place to make a place. And you will have to buy. But the place will not buy? People will not make money? No. Right now, there will always be cycles. Real estate is always a cyclical industry. home sales are very robust across the top 5 cities they are very robust at the right price point luxury houses are in demand that's not something and they don't live

1:24:03if someone wants to buy 2 places and I have funded the builder who is going to sell it what's the difference is there or not that's what I have to call for as an investor can I put my money to work and can I get my money out with returns and you see promising future in real estate you have to play the cycle if I see in the last 20 years there were times when the real estate market was completely screwed up after 2007-2008 there was nothing but the two or four projects that were made they didn't get money neither banks foreign investors have gone away from our own. We had the opportunity to take the opportunity to take the high return.

1:24:51We had a debt on the high return. The project completed and we had the return. You take the time of COVID. We were sitting at home. At that time, we had a lot of capital in real estate and private credit fund. So you say that in India there are so many problems and how the return is made in India. I always tell all investors. In the time of Covid, you can take Wall Street Journal, Economist, Washington Post, any of the international people. Those people, they have a photograph of India, where they are running their hair.

1:25:31And people are going to their own village line.

1:25:44my

1:25:49Minister

1:26:05Israel who is sitting in another country, whose source of knowledge is all this. And he has a memo that I have to put money in India in this company or in this project. What will the reaction of that? What are you talking about? Don't waste my time. He will say that. We were sitting here. During that 18 months, we invested$800 million in our investors. in different state. Every one of them has made more than 20 % return. So the point is every adversity also offers an opportunity. I got 20-20 % at that time with people who would never have paid me that return if they had other competing sources of capital.

1:27:03There was no competing sources of capital.

1:27:11do you think these media houses globally they paint India look at it media is one of the things they say they also have to sell their money but specifically India why do people do this there are specific few media houses I don't want to name them but you know I know in there you will never learn something positive in India you will never learn anything you will take about politicians private companies what are you doing middle class or low middle class sentiment India's opportunities you will take anything positive things they will also give you a negative spin correct what favors them I think you have to look you have to accept the fact that there is a certain position that a media house can take and they want to keep their head in the sand and want to continue in the same position why what help what favors them whatever it may help their audience with whom they are addressing you here we say some television channel will always support the government will always support the government everybody has a positioning in the market and they want to retain that positioning and they want to ignore the facts for decades and there may be political compunctions also.

1:28:37Global magazines are not without political interference. Let's be clear about it. It's an incentive for some country to defame India. So they use these media houses to keep doing what they are doing. You just have to listen to a statement made by a very important diplomat. We don't want India to become another China. And they are very in favor to not, you know, So, you know, you have to, but, you know, I don't blame them. This is the reality. You are living in this world. So, you have to deal with it. Do you think they can stop even if they say something like this? We don't want India to become next China.

1:29:24Because China has become a threat for them. Correct. So, for their power challenge, they have almost come to now a position where China and US can now they can't arm twist China like now they can't do anything they don't want any other country to rise to that level of power and that's why they're saying we won't allow India to reach that power do you think that's possible they can't stop us if you look at history at any point in time a dominant power would have wanted that nobody else becomes a challenger and history has shown us it doesn't stay like that but do you right now I'm just asking blanket do you think that US if they decide or if US and China together they decide that we should not let India rise can they do some harm look if the two countries come together of course they can set back India for sure having said that geopolitics is changing international you know order in terms of loyalties and alliance are changing dramatically.

1:30:31Right? So, you as a country have to navigate that. Make sure that you have some strategic friends and you don't give up on those friends and India is doing a good job on that. India is making sure that Russia is still a friend. India is making sure that you have oil energy security with the relationship. So, we are doing whatever it takes to do. Plus, remember, the rest of the world has also watched what has going on. So, think about, you know, if you look at last few years if you look at defense India was a net importer of defense products India now become an exporter of defense products so if you start arming some of these other guys over a period of time you know they will become your allies because they are dependent upon their own security on the exported defense products that you have which has been a vulnerability for India if you had all your imported defense product right now we're exporting a lot even in space we're doing with with zero and like a lot of new So, you have to build your own modes.

1:31:30You have to build your own defenses, right? And if anything between what has happened in Iran and Ukraine, warfare has changed completely. It's less human, more drones, more humanoids. That's where security is going to move to. And if you are investing in that kind of future and if you have capabilities to do that, You will have every nation has some vulnerabilities. Right. You have to make sure that you your advantages outweigh the vulnerabilities. Tell me after all the problems right now currently. Okay. Economy ki hamaara energy dependency ki do global powers apas hai mil raha show of the world power of like you know they're showing the power India technology semiconductors or AI technology hai kafi peechai hai hai like bunch of things are happening.

1:32:26rupee is going to be very weak so something like that I don't think of India in favor all of a sudden which was very favorable until 6-7 months ago it's now not looking in favor after all this purely from the point of view of making money only with investment in terms of making money are you optimistic India? I am a permanent optimist that's why I always look at this that's patriotism that's in me as well like I'm also permanent optimism but I'm also a permanent optimism otherwise in a short cycle in next 4-5 years do you see people making wealth in India Sultan I always welcome a crisis when we understand that nothing can go wrong with us nothing we are now the boss you need a dose of this reality right otherwise complacency sets in and if you there are many things that are wrong with India.

1:33:25There are many things that can be better. Right? We always work in a crisis. If there is a flurry of reforms that are being announced or in the process of being announced, it is this crisis which has forced the people to reform. In 1991, it was that. We didn't have any money to reform. Right? Today, we are in the same situation. All of that is forcing policymakers to relook at certain things and make things better, easier, etc. as you can think of. So, a crisis is actually welcome. And when a crisis happens and new reforms come into play, to answer your question to make money, you look at where the reforms are and what the impact is going to be and invest.

1:34:19Where do you see three industries, three places where reforms are? I think healthcare, defense certainly and space related in India. Definitely these three areas. And the last I would say is what I call as long term income producing assets. What do I mean by that? Right now for the average investor, that can be in the form of REITs and INVITs. INVITs are Infrastructure Investment Trust. simple language if I explain that in which they own infrastructure assets like you understand 4 roads they own now there's traffic in the road toll collect toll from the toll there's a lot of maintenance but the rest of the money they distribute by law 90 % of the free cash flow has to be distributed this is what the regulations say so every month if the economy will increase the question is that if the truck is running then the economy is increasing so if more and more traffic goes through that and some of these tolls, the toll itself is linked to inflation if inflation is 4 % then the toll will increase by 4 % so if you have bought that in-vit you have every quarter of a dollar and every year you have increased inflation and you have increased money how much do you have to do it today you can buy these at 7 to 7.5 % 6.75 to 7.5 % but it is a return but it is a greater return and you can get 15-20 years but it is 6-7 % correct it is a compounding effect but it's a lot of other assets which is more than a return everything has a place in your portfolio everything what is the other thing that you have to do 6-7 % but if inflation is less than a asset if someone else is getting 4 % if you have to buy it then you can buy it then your return gets 12-15 % and this has been done in the past this can happen in the future.

1:36:44Important thing is that India, as I said before, people have real estate and gold in gold. If you put gold in gold, what do you make? Now the prices are coming. If you ignore this period, what do you make in the past 10 years? Nothing will happen. But today, whoever you make in gold, will make a lot of money. You have to wait for 10 years. The point is this. I'm saying that you would have seen we were talking earlier that you have a family advisor or a policy uncle ji you take a LIC and put it in 25 ,000 rupees and you will get this in 25 years you will get this you will get this you will get it and see what return it is 7 % 7-7 % but it is not a great product but why do you take it?

1:37:35for protection why do you take it? if you have a need for annual cash flows or if you want to reinvest that money you are counting only 7 % but you are not counting the reinvestment but if I just put in the equity if I put in the index then there is no return there is no return equity returns come with higher risk it will come with higher risk last 15 months what will I make equity return right

1:38:12Exactly. So every asset class comes with a certain degree of risk. You have to see whether the risk return makes sense for you or not. And in every portfolio, you have a equity in your portfolio, debt, annuity cash flows. I am saying that the assets will come in a lot of demand for other people to come and buy. These are the pension funds and insurance companies. Globally these assets are owned by these kinds of funds. Here is zero ownership. And the day they start to buy, they will go into the market. And this is happening. They need consistent cash flow. consistent cash flow. So this is going to happen.

1:38:59National railways are selling SEGZ, private railways, roads, infrastructure. So today what are we doing? When we talk about policy, some things are wrong and some things are right. The government makes a car. My and your tax. of money. It's not easy to make a land acquisition. After that, the land is going through the tiger corridor. You have to make a bridge bridge. These are all problems. The infrastructure is also been opened. After that, the toll started. I have to pay tax, the land is now. now the government also recycled capital one has become a second so you can buy it so they auctioned it who buys it right global pension fund because they have pensioners so they come and buy it why don't we take it why don't we take it why don't we take it why it's not understanding and capability experience we won't take pension fund me as a fund manager and investors and family offices I don't buy it it's a simple way the income from the road the income from the road like I said 7.5 % of the income is 7.5 % that you have to buy 5 rupees in the form of 2 rupees.

1:40:482 rupees in the form of dividend. Now, in India, when you have a young, successful interest income, you have to pay 30 % of tax. Okay? So, you have 100 rupees. One and the other one has 100 rupees. You will buy this asset from 100 rupees. you will have less your post tax return. You will have two of them. But in your hand, four. The tax doesn't have to come in. Seven. Who's the last? The pension fund. The international pension fund. They are more competitive because their taxation on the same income is lower. And you are not competitive. Your domestic capital can't compete with it. can't do it.

1:41:41So why does the pension fund have a tax less? For investing in infrastructure, government has made a scheme that their tax will less. How much does it feel? It feels zero.

1:41:54Infrastructure for interest income is 15 % of tax. It's not a place where everyone comes. If Japan comes to 10%, if the Netherlands comes to 10%, then our withholding tax agreement depends on that. I think it's 40 percent. So, we have made our own competitive now. Now, the government's own need is that if the Raja Shamani is gaining interest, you can also gain interest in fixed deposit or in other bonds in the same way. How can I get to know? Interest income I want to tax it because the government needs revenue. so I made a policy that I should have a tax tax so I think it's necessary to think about how we control it how we incentivize it we are discussing it with them I said that at the infrastructure of the government I said that we will give a tax break and give a policy but I will see the guidance if you have the invits which are already listed are.

1:43:06The amount of 55 % of foreign investors are in the same way. Okay, already? Already. 55 % of foreign investors are in the same way. So every quarter of the money is going on, it is a liability for our country.

1:43:23So in 2030, our idea is that the amount of annual $7 billion of$8 billion of foreign exchange liability you are standing for yourself. As long as you buy your own infrastructure, you are standing for yourself for foreign exchange liability for 15 years. This is the thing that is thinking.

1:43:50And today we are thinking, how to save foreign exchange? And one hand we are giving. But you see, that is also necessary. Because then… It is necessary. I didn't say that it doesn't need money. It doesn't need us.

1:44:07we are a capital-starved country we need capital we encourage have a better capital recycling that is what I am saying you must have both sources of capital working for recycling your assets but what is their rationale for example Japan if you look at Mumbai metro so if Japan didn't put money then it didn't make money because the money was from there their capital is very important because of their infrastructure development so they will get incentive and they will get money and tax will get less recurring when they will buy a ticket they will go to money the same thing you are saying that you are saying that large investors who have private funds they should also allow allow allow allow allow allow but but but but but

1:45:15they are not doing it and why do they not do it then they are not doing it because again lack of experience but But if any person sits on 26 lakh crores, what is the inexperience? This is reality.

1:45:38If you have spent 26 lakh crores, 10 people hire me.

1:45:45These are the practical difficulties. And they don't. What is their rationale? Have you ever met anyone like this? I've met them. What do they say? They are very honest about it. They are saying that look, there are a lot of operational issues in the way their rules and regulations are written which does not make it easy for them to do it number one number two they have never done it before how do I evaluate a road how do I make sure that I control it properly so they have started investing in invits but very very small amounts relative to the size but experts anything can be done you have to do experts these are the engagements that are currently on these are the things and what is the rational when you talk about government that you also tax free you also have less tax when you invest because you also get tens of billions of dollars you have so our rational is simple we say that the government is trying to collect tax I am saying that this interest income hai you to quelhaal tu indian complete indian

1:47:01you

1:47:06you

1:47:12have

1:47:22to put the data in context if you want tax break then the people will say I have all tax free so how will the government go how will the government become social infrastructure you have to talk with data if you are asking them to give up some revenue you have to prove to them if you give up you will have additional revenue you will make up in the next 2-3 years time. You have to give the justification. You can't just say that you have to tax break. So, we have to give them all the time. But just now there is nothing new. No, no, this is recently the discussion started. So, that is what people like us engage with.

1:48:11And the good news is that at various levels in the government, people are very open to ideas, listening and they have taken action in a lot of cases. It's not that anything is happening. There are a lot of things that are going on. A lot of reforms are happening. Like I said, I always like a crisis. Because things happen. See, when a large conglomerate or large company invests a lot in a village or state and they say that in your state, we will pay 10 ,000 crores, 15 ,000 crores. We will make a factory ourselves. We will do things ourselves. In that case, they get tax rebates. get tax free. As much capital you put, you get some capital.

1:48:56I understand what you are saying. You get some of the things you get the same thing as you get the same thing. You get the same thing as you get the same thing. You get the same thing. So on a private level, on a company level, people get it. You get it. You get it. Yes, you get it because they are growing and they are growing and they are growing and growing. Largely, it's employment. There is a lot of economic benefit that comes out of an employment if you put this 10 ,000 crore if you put this then in their chest 50 ,000 crore will be extra that's the argument and they get you don't get it because you are putting it in infrastructure then why not get it because infrastructure is also important as much as you get it you will get it you will get it there will be employment generated and more connectivity etc then why this doesn't happen but a private industrialist gets it no no no there are tax break for infrastructure as well.

1:49:51Right? It's a question if I want to go and build let's say for example government has come up with a policy for certain tax breaks for building data centers which is an infrastructure for example. There are tax breaks for developing some of these other infrastructure but you need to do much more than what we currently have. Bottom line is there. Without getting into the nitty gritties of it. Talking about data centers in 2020 you invested in data centers. Yeah. Right? Much before this high pipe was built. So you were like what did you see in 2020 data centers will become bigger which maybe other people didn't see it I'll be honest I didn't think of AI at that time but what I did think was that we are one of the largest smartphone mobile population in this country and people like Raj Shaman are creating some fantastic content and millions of people are consuming it where is that content going to be stored how are those you know people going to get the content hot off the press immediately right so that's all goes through the data centers right so the sheer volume of data that the country generates and the digitization initiatives that the government are already taken through Aadhaar Jandhan Yojana etc it was very clear that the digital backbone of the country has to become very very significant supporter so it was a very core aspect of India so that is the first part of it then when we looked at it how many people are in India 3-4 years ago there were only 4 data center developer operators in this country there were 4 there were 2 multinationals there was another company called Controlless so we said then we saw this data that is generated is being stored in other parts of the world Singapore poor and other places and all that.

1:51:49It comes back to the original point that data privacy was always talking about. At the time of the pandemic, there was also a big issue about data privacy. If data privacy is such a big issue in America, people have also data privacy. So how can it be, that our data is in India's bar store, financial data, personal data. So never-nate, there will be something which will make data security an important issue. It was like the data center regulations were coming. That's what happened. Reserve Bank of India was released. All financial data should be stored in India. Right? And now, people realize, for example, when some parts of, due to sanctions, you can cut off a country from the international transfer system in SWIFT.

1:52:43Right? So, everything is now becoming dependent on digital infrastructure that you have. When we invested, we had an inkling that this could become a sovereign security issue. But it wasn't in that form and shape in our head. The way in our... This will be very important for India and this will be a team. It will be a team. It will be a team. So we have sat on that. This is what I mean by saying what do you want to bet on? At that time, I could put it in a gaming company. I could also buy it in India. There are many young Indians who are gaming. That's right. You apply your instinct of how you understand India.

1:53:25And how much returns did you make in this? We will make more than 30 % return on that. Nice. How much did you invest in data centers? We invested in two tranches almost 1600 crores. And from the credit side? yeah it is a convertible equity actually okay venture debt sorts venture equity you can call it but it was a very venture debt

1:53:56so that was the thinking at that time and now of course everybody wants to set up data centers it's a hot theme and all the big boys are in the club correct but they all have announcement there is an announcement. As many announcements, their first data center will be at least 2-2 years. But if one comes, then back to back is very fast. It's not easy to build data centers. And it's outside of some capabilities. And the way the winds are changing, it's difficult to predict. Interesting. Which way you had this instinct or gut feeling? which opportunity which you feel can be a potential something which people neglecting others?

1:54:46I would say that I am not a Nostradamus to predict It's on your instinct and some stuff I'd say my instinct is still India will do dramatic stuff in life sciences and healthcare Like you have explained to me about data center what I saw, what was the insight of what will it become I understand that must storytelling I feel good the way you explained me data that this will become a long time and that will be the same why life sciences let me explain healthcare there are two things first universal healthcare which the government The government has created a new scheme for the government. There are two effects.

1:55:41First, because the government gets insurance, it is a terminal of elective surgery. There is pain in the government. The doctor goes to the private doctor and says, you will get 3 ,000 ,000 rupees for a new ghatne. So, he goes home and says, I don't have enough money. This was the scenario four years ago. Now, the government says, I'm going to insurance you, you will get a ghatne. What did the impact happen?

1:56:18So, that guy who was bearing the pain, limping along, he was going to go to a steel wheel, he was going to go to a ghatne operation. operation isudi para so the new implant was which was what what work is mira ?

1:56:52? Thank you. We go to Bombay and implant this in a big hospital and we do it in a million dollars. This is the international company X and the international company Y. Same product is made in India now. The price is down by 55 to 60%. Why? One, the product actually should be costing only that much. second is that the sheer volume brings down the cost so you have to identify those things secondly people have realized that all things we import in the market you don't need to take an example of stents there is a company in Gujarat that was in a diamond cutting business the company's owner was heart attack and then emergency to understand what is this stand and the key is how precision engineering is required to cut the plastic effectively in simple language we can make this no background in science no background he made a stand okay now when he started selling a stand which were multinational companies

1:58:06was 20 % of the price. It's now the world's second largest tent manufacturing company. So these are the kind of things when the India market opens up and expands there is a lot of things that we open up. That's one aspect of it. Then on the innovation side I said earlier the collaboration between capital and academics that has now become better and better more such money in our portfolio we have four companies one out of IIT Bombay one out of Indian Institute of Science two out of Indian Institute of Science Bangalore which are doing some pioneering work simple math I'll tell you the cost of developing a drug in India is about 20 to 24 million dollars same thing in the US and other places will be more than 100 million dollars.

1:59:02Before, neither we had a sahuliyat nor patients. Now it is. And people have started doing it. On the surface, you will not see it today. It will see it 4 years later. There are, you know, cancer, there is CAR T cell therapy. In India, you can do CAR T cell therapy at 20 % of the cost than the US. Approved. Now. And this will change the economics of healthcare. Normally, we think that healthcare will be very expensive. We are changing it. We don't have enough delivery capabilities today. Not enough hospitals, not enough primary care centers. All this will happen. All of that requires capital. Which is why I am saying, look at the entire spectrum of healthcare.

1:59:53Right from diagnostics. You know, for example, today when my own you know relatives brothers sisters they come here they are shocked that you sit at home and in the morning he will take blood test after eating after eating after eating again he will take blood test and in the evening his mobile report at a price point that they can't imagine $10 they cannot imagine you try doing that in America oh my god you try meeting a doctor in America so we will change the rules of the game in this I am reasonably convinced in terms of what will happen in the entire spectrum of healthcare this gives me good validation and makes me happy I invest a lot in health but I don't do it with the basis of making money I do it because I see some problem with my family or my friends and if somebody is actually making a startup about it then I put my money there.

2:01:01So it's more like Passion Personal problem driven or passion driven But as an investor, it's good to see Let's see, other people are validating the theory. Tell me, there's a belief that ultra rich investors or ultra rich people have some sort of insider information. Is that true? insider information is a special definition in SEBI's regulations that is one aspect of it but the ultra rich if you can call that or well connected you can call that they have a much better sense of winds of change if I can call that explain when people meet they meet policymakers they meet successful entrepreneurs a young entrepreneur with good ideas also goes to them for capital so the sources of information to read trends is much better than an average person and hence they can see the world in a different lens and therefore they can foresee and then most of these people are also very well travelled they see what's happening in the other parts of the world so they can see that this is likely to happen and therefore if they were to make a bet and say that this will go so their ability to judge by factoring these inputs you know what I call as connecting the dots who are seemingly not connected that these well connected people have correct strengthened that muscle yeah but you are essentially telling me or you know I always use another term called being able to see around the corners.

2:02:50But is it the same information which is available to public? Do these like well connected rich people, do they see it with a different filter? They see it with a different filter. That's why it makes sense? Or do you think this kind of information, it doesn't even reaches or it doesn't even reach the normal public? No, no. It is out there, right? Many of, there is when you say insider information, there's a specific inside information that there's a major issue in the plant and production is going to be down this month that's a very specific kind of information that's different he usually doesn't come he will come and get him because that industrial may be a friend and he may be in the same industry he said my plant is going to be a problem you gave me some advice this is just very happenstance where these people the well connected well traveled well you know many of them are successful entrepreneurs and businessmen themselves so they can pattern recognition and their instincts are tuned right and see when you think about many of the very successful businesses right there is a model where you say boss I want to do this I will do market research I will establish addressable market size what should be my price point all the stuff that is taught in MBA books right but you have stood up what do you research how many people should eat at home no market is not that is what an entrepreneur's instinct is about it is about the ability to see a need which is not visible.

2:04:51Or to judge or create a need if you can call that. Right? I think there is an opportunity where if I do this, it will fine take us. This is what is the ability to see beyond what everybody was eating food. Everybody was I was just talking about I called my Punjab suite and I called my ticket and it was that was the time it wasn't that it wasn't that individual restaurants would still have a runner boy to do that how to organize that and make it into a big business that's what an entrepreneur sees so well connected people can you know identify these things earlier than most people what is one pattern you have seen across really successful people who have made money consistently over the time something is a pattern that will happen like maybe the way they think the way they act the way they use their money some pattern I can only to the extent that you know I have met a lot of founders of companies successful industrialists as an investment banker of my own mentor and founder Mr.

2:06:02Kotak etc one is they are very good listeners right and they are very very quick in understanding things. At least in the case of Mr. Kota can say he has a fantastic memory. He will remember small small things 30-35 years ago. So there is always some unique characteristic about these people. And their ability to all of these people have a much better gut and instinct than normal people. They are called instinct. It's a different level. They are strong. And they have clarity.

2:06:52And most importantly tenacity. What do you mean by tenacity? See, once you have made up your mind that we have to do it. Then the ability to execute. And overcome problems. Anything that you want to do new, you will have problems. you will have customer acceptance issues you will have production issues you will have other execution issues but you have got your goal you know this is what I want to get there every problem to sort of get into the nitty gritties and solve the ability to most successful people apart from an ability to listen have a very sharp ability to get into the nitty gritties and details goes going inside I have seen this

2:08:01so he is able to then see if they need to study they get into the details

2:08:10there's a problem you'll get into it that's pattern across people you've seen absolutely people get into the details they know how manufacturing in industrial that will go into plant what's happening he will know who's screw deal he will talk to the worker he will talk to this he will understand what's happening he'll get into the details you know the ability to what you call roll up the sleeves and let's get this done what it is like to be working with Mr. Uday Kota how is he as a boss oh he's a fantastic boss I think most people think that he's a financial genius right I actually think that he's a fabulous man manager the reason being if you look at our firm there are many of us I've been with the firm for 30 years 31 years like me there were a number of others on average 25 years is where the senior management has been together with him in an industry which is known for revolving doors yeah so how did he manage that so how did he manage that that's why I say he's a fantastic man manager but how did he manage I think at various points in time when I thought about this his ability to judge ki is individual ko kaha chabi lagau wo usko jo sabhjala baut kam logo ki how do I motivate this guy I'll give him this carrot I will give her this carrot and get them to continue to run ye art hai so you work very closely with Mr.

2:09:59Uday Kotak you work closely with large fund managers you have met almost so many individual high net worth individual founders institution industrialists so many people right is there some common money belief which the ultra rich have which is different than when you meet somebody who's not as rich as them i think the evolved ultra rich understand that they have enough and more and therefore many of them in recent times are thinking about what they can do more meaningful with their money. I think that's an interesting aspect that I'm now seeing with the ultra-religy. So the idea that I want to put it for a cause was not as ingrained I would say five or seven years ago as it is today.

2:10:50Which I think is a big plus. And I think the second aspect of it is that all of them understand preserving wealth. Okay. See, a lot of the younger people don't understand that. The rich understand that. They know it's very difficult to make money. You keep saving it. You keep saving it. Correct. You said evolved. Evolved rich or not so evolved rich? What is the difference? People come to money. It doesn't happen to be culture. not even eat chips and throw it in the bag. So, many of our country are in every way. But your definition of when you think of evolving and not evolving. At least professionally, the kind of people whom I meet are all mostly evolved rich.

2:11:42But you get one more time, not so evolved. Yes, we get. So, what difference is that? So, essentially the expectation, talking, talking, everything is very different. What is wrong? It's very transactional in approach. Very transactional in approach. Okay, I will give you enough, so you will pass back me to commission. Those kind of conversations. You know, a little conversation. Now you can get out of money. You can get out of money. So, different. What is enough money in India? It's a very subjective question. But what do you think? What is rich in India? I don't think there is a particular definition.

2:12:29You know, there is. I don't. Look, very hard. Because we have such a wide state of society. That for somebody even 5 lakh rupees in the bank is a big number. But I'm not saying big or small. I'm saying, In India, How much money you can live with a rich life with a very comfortably freedom? with richy rich life and you don't need to think back to the world. I was listening to Kevin O 'Leary recently, the shark from US Shark Tank. He said that globally if you have to achieve a number, you should have to be$5 million. Then you are financially free. You have to live in any country and now you don't have any attention of money.

2:13:14You do anything. You live the top 1 % life in the world. Top 0.01%. So that's 5 million dollar for US and global. What will be for India? Hard to say. 50 crore, I think. I would say same 50 crore. And then after 50 crore, it doesn't matter. The money doesn't matter. Money doesn't matter. You'll put 6 % in the price of 5 crore. It's like that. It's not much money. It's not much money. How much money you eat? How much money you eat?

2:13:48until you get into vanity look you can enjoy you can do what you want like with that kind of money you can say let's go to Wimbledon let's go to Wimbledon everything will happen in 3 crores but if you have vanity then if you have 3 crores you can go watch Wimbledon you can go watch World Cup football Australian Open everything when you meet first generation you know first generation wealth versus third, fourth it's very different what's the difference oh yeah third, fourth interested in doing family office there's no ambition there's no ambition and the father's business seems boring they want to do new things digital and that's what they're doing do they do or not some of them are smart some of them are not some of them are going with the flow right so it's a question of whether you really want see at the end of the day passion is not about just money passion is success is about how passionate you are in terms of what you want to do if you are really passionate and you say I really want to do this then your probability of success is much higher because you really have to you know you want to be able you should really want it and want and we are willing to put the hard yards behind it yeah if you don't want that you know you must what is the dialogue of Shah Rukh Khan?

2:15:22not with wisdom no here's the last question which I ask almost all my guests these days is what is one advice nobody should follow one advice nobody should follow I would say ignore your instincts people should not follow you should if somebody says ignore your instincts don't follow your instincts so anyone who is asking you to be extremely data driven extremely you know just don't don't follow your gut be calculated this and that don't listen to that person sometimes that answer is better than data yeah absolutely human mind is wired you know if you ask a lady for example she's going somewhere and somebody's staring at her from her back she will know why?

2:16:25how? what data did she have? it's just instinct yeah that's what it is I agree I agree with instincts play a big big role correct I always feel I have always felt that look trust your instinct always data is a supplementary information true there's also someone said everyone has data everyone doesn't have the same instinct correct you and me we have the same data but you and I have very different instincts that's where it will define what will you do with an opportunity and what will I do absolutely absolutely Absolutely. Perfect. Thank you so much. Thank you. It was incredible to talk to you.

2:17:11It was amazing. Thank you. Thank you so much for watching this episode. Now you have to do three things. First of all, subscribe to this channel. Because as much as you subscribe, we will get better and valuable guests for you. Number 2, tell me in comments what you liked in this episode so that we can repeat mistakes and which guests you want to see in our podcast so that we can take them and give you more value and number 3, you should have to share this episode with someone else because one conversation can change someone's life I'll see you next time, until then keep figuring out