Salary Negotiations, First Impressions and Office Politics | Sandeep Das | FO455 Raj Shamani

38:12So Raj nai ek chiz kya, he started a podcast aisa nai hai Raj ka journey bhot easy hai so Raj had a lot of guests reached out initially a lot of them said no to him but Raj kept building one episode at a time the second thing what Raj did very well is Raj never had his agenda he said I will ask you a neutral question you answer and let the audience judge so one of the ways he differentiated himself from other journalists is he never said that I come from a certain political philosophy or a certain agenda my job is to ask you let the audience decide and Raj three one he had immense ambition and the way he grew up now as you see his journey now how will we do the ending?

38:53one more anecdote that 12 year old guy today is the number one podcaster and in 6 months he is the number one podcaster do you want to work for this guy? now look at the journey that has gone through if I had just said Raj is India's number one podcaster he'll be like yeah okay fine great but because I've taken you through a journey that story lands very differently

39:20So, problem, tension, resolution. I'm translating in their life. So, many people work in sales. And a lot of people come to me with high ticket sales items and say, dude, our sales isn't happening because we're talking to the client, look, our great product is, it's 40 features, but no one is buying. This is a very common problem. So, I always say that you keep the intermediate portion, the tension, keep the attention. DJ. What does this mean? If you watch any movie, a good movie is made by a good villain. Shole became very big because Amjad Khan played that role. If you watch Dhurandar, Akshay Khanna played the role of a lifetime.

39:58That's why Dhurandar became such a hit. If you watch Chhava, he played a brilliant role as Aurangzeb. If you look at Batman, Heath Ledger, the way he played Joker, Batman became... So, the villain is very important. How do people do it? People say it's our answer. But what do people need to understand? What is tension? Tension means that why the problem is important. If you have to know a new category, you have to convince the client that you have to know a new category, then you have to show tension. First part of tension is, you have to tell a client that if you don't do this, then how much will it be?

40:29If you don't enter this category, you will lose 400 crores. So this is one part of the tension. Second is to say that if you want to know, what can you do in this problem? what can happen which we need to know so last time you went to three years before these three things didn't do it now you know these three things didn't do it the third part of tension is in terms of what we call is existing competition why don't you do it you are asking but existing competition you don't have to give so do you agree on these tension elements then you won the client or client thinking yes this is right now tell you what is solution so unless you win the client with the tension the solution does not matter so tension is everything so I always do a lot of sales coaching for very senior people I say if you are talking for 10 minutes the split has to be 20 % problem 20 % of the time 2 minute problem 4-5 minute tension 3 minute solution no one has interest in the solution you have convinced the tension the solution by the way will come everyone knows you are doing it so that tension is critical to storytelling which a lot of people so if you looked at Steve Jobs' product launch he constantly said people want three things.

41:39They want a phone with a keypad, phone with this, phone with that and people are not getting it. It was all an attempted building tension. That was all an attempted building tension. So tension is critical in storytelling. There are more tactics of course last time you and I talked about symbols, colors, I remember Steve Jobs' dressing style. There is another technique which is called symbols. It's a very simple technique that I will say. Always remember that the other person's subconscious mind is judging you. judge conscious mind maybe talking to you but subconscious mind judge so these small symbols matter if you take a phone next time if your phone cover is bad other person's subconscious mind is judging you and saying this is bad maybe he won't do high ticket sales this is not conscious brain this is subconscious brain so simple thing like you are carrying pen your subconscious brain which takes 99 % of the decision is judging you so my request is whenever you go to any client facing role, please get a nice pen with your name engraved.

42:40Amazon peh 500 rep. But that small thing will add 2 % effectiveness. So, the stationary that you're carrying matters a lot. Our phone cover matters a lot. People seem very basic, but subconscious brain judge kiyaya raha hai dusry side se. Tell me, I've asked this question to somebody and I didn't get a good answer. Aab nececeos ke saath kaam karte ho. You've seen those CEOs, right? Take decisions. Yeah. Do you believe ki you decide what you wear, what you wear, what you wear, what you wear, what you wear, on the basis. 100%. 100%. I won't give my opinion. I'll tell you before. Now, essentially, what we touched on is what is called the power of first impressions.

43:23The clothes, the first impressions. There is a research that was done by Princeton University. It's a very famous research. What they basically did is, when the election season was going on, local MPs and MLAs were standing for election. So they went to Princeton, they called 10 students. And they don't know local MPs and MLAs. They don't know the biggest candidates. They don't know local MPs. So they told 20 students, 20 college students, that I'm going to show the local MP in the election of all parties. I'll show you their picture in 30 seconds. All those candidates are standing. they were just in that 30 seconds you have to judge who will win it was so much and none of these people were famous because local MP MLA no name is known and 3-4 people stood up then they actually recorded those responses and they eventually saw that these people will be campaigning all MPs after one year when result came out they tabulated that these guesses and finally how much overlap lab there.

44:2975 % of those first impression guesses turned out to be right. And this person only looked at for 30 seconds. He's not a famous person. He doesn't know local MLA. So that is why they say the first impression that lands in your subconscious brain, determines a long, long thing. We always say, if you're going to interview, in the first 30 seconds, your subconscious brain has decided if you have to take it or not. After that, it is just signaling to the conscious brain that if you want to take it, then you easy question. If you have to ask a new question, then ask a difficult question. So that is why first impressions matter so much.

45:05It is. A simple thing like I will tell you, you are the same way you are and there is a science of smiling which I coach people on. Sounds so stupid. But the way you smile can determine whether you will be in a thousand crore deal or not. As simple as that. A Harvard Business Review research is that they went and asked leaders that if you can work with whom you can do, do you want warmth or do you want competence? Most people will think they would have replied, we want competence. They all said we want warmth. So a smile is a great way, first impression, clothes, etc. And it absolutely changes the sales conversation.

45:46So simple things like the clothes you wear, the gadgets you carry, all of this matters so much. because the subconscious brain is running our world. We think that we are logical. We are not logical. And that is why CEOs, a lot of, so when you see Steve Jobs doing a launch, there's a reason he wears that black t-shirt and the blue jeans, what we touched upon Lamte. He's affecting your subconscious mind at scale. But then, a follow up on this. Only clean, good looking, good clothes, it means clean accessories, gadgets, it means expensive and luxury. I think do you think a lot of people believe this that a cheap car or cheap clothes or cheap car can give you exclusive clubs when you go to a big networking event and if you have an expensive watch people give you more importance than if you don't have it do you believe in this because I don't so there is a never seen this.

46:53There is a cultural angle to this. There are certain societies where I want to give general answer that you should look professional and well-groomed. That's a generic answer. But there's a level depth. There are certain cultures where symbols, whether it's car, watch have more value. Certain cultures have less value. If you do business in China, it makes sense to go in the BMW. They will give you more value. you will do a business in Amsterdam it is a very bad idea to go in the BMW please drive the bicycle on the road because it is a different culture so if I am a collectivist versus individualist I will come to that again certain countries you need to show even a place like Dubai if you show you have the wealth subtly not you will get more chances in terms of that so I always say you are going to China put that object in front they will build a first good impression never do that in Amsterdam you will lose the person for life so this matters in culture and I want to say this is not true or wrong this is how human beings are we are damaged, we are flawed we are in that flawed ecosystem in India I think it's in certain areas so I keep hearing you go to Delhi it will matter in Chennai people will not do business with you in Chennai if you flaunt the other person will get say this is not our value system why did Chennai love MS Dhoni so much because MS Dhoni was not the type MS Dhoni didn't say much much didn't say much didn't flaunt that's why Chennai loved him so much so each city is a culture if you go to Delhi too much humility is a bad idea Mumbai also I think Mumbai is a bit like the south you have to be slightly humble with your objects but well groomed showing that you belong at the table becomes very very important so I keep hearing a lot of celebrities saying this in fact a lot of CEOs also say this I'll tell about celebrities because many people have heard including people like Pankaj Tripathi they have said this he's known for his simplicity they all say that when they come here they seriously get people because of this they got a luxury car and 4-5 people on track so that when they go they get more and get more work because our culture is not far from China fundamentally as societies we are also sort of collectivism changing so that matters but if it is in Los Angeles it probably doesn't work Leonardo DiCaprio will come in shots and Leonardo DiCaprio but it's different in certain cultures.

49:47If you do business in China, India also do business in South East Asia, you do business in Dubai, Saudi 100%, you should treat it as sales tactics. This is not the right thing. We judge people to do that. If you do business in Saudi Arabia, you have to tell the other person that I am your right. Don't think I am very low. I am going to give you business. Because there is one principle which is called heart-led trust. We spoke about it last time. If I trust you that you are my brother, I will do business with you. I think you are not in my brother. Whether it's economic or thinking wise, I will not do business with my brother.

50:26So, I'll give you another example. One of the CFOs of the largest companies in India. You know, she was all India rank one. Phenomenal track record. But she said to me, Sandeep, I'm not taking anyone seriously. My track record is so amazing. CA rank 1, rank 1, one of the biggest companies in the world. So I asked her, what can I shadow you for half a day? I'll come to your office and I'll just notice you. Just ignore my presence. So she said, come, come. So I followed her for one full day I spent at her. I would just sit and take notes. I noticed something, that when she goes, she has so many notebooks and so many papers.

51:10She's walking around in such a clumsy manner that she doesn't take her seriously in the boardroom. And this is a woman who has phenomenal pedigree education-wise, achievement-wise. I gave her one suggestion. Please get a digital tablet. Please get a digital tablet. Keep everything on that. Do not carry any paper. Your walk will be straight. You won't be clumsy. You will get respect slowly and slowly. And what? Over that, I mean she's going to be the CEO very soon see she is very good the first impression matters a lot she's going to be a CEO I mean you'll hear it very soon in terms of so these small things matter a lot you know one more insight I'll share on this because you're talking about it a little related a little unrelated I have seen just an etiquette because cultural etiquette my personal opinion I don't have like researches like you it's when you deal with a very high net worth individual, it depends on how you talk to them, based on what is the third generation, and I'll tell you what, anyone and everyone till now, who is the third generation, fourth generation, if I have paid for them, who have paid for the money, who have paid for the money, if I have followed them 4, 5, 10, follow up have lost that deal and when I have individual who was first generation maybe he's 10 times richer than this guy also and they've appreciated it and have landed a deal very interesting and that's an insight that I probably haven't got the I've seen somewhat that the third fourth generation money people think how desperate to get maybe it's not a business.

53:04It's like we have to go back. Not able to understand that follow up is a strategy. They think that maybe I don't want to give this business because maybe it's not my size. So I don't want to take a risk. Yeah. Versus a first generation guy, they believe they like it more because they are like we are growing up. In this, this will not give me my business. And that I've learnt after such a long time because because of podcast we are so many people from the presidents of the prime minister and we have understood this now that is an excellent insight that is an excellent insight I will just add on to that it's a brilliant insight first of all I also say that the best sales conversations are the ones where you are not doing sales so for example if you have to sell a high ticket deal the entire conversation should be on what's your problem and what's your tension if you get alignment on that sometimes you can just leave the conversation the solution will the person will come to you for the solution agreed so that is I recently did a sales coaching for one of the biggest tech companies in the world and one of the things I noticed is people start with the first minute say this is my product in 30 features and never sells never sells so that is something which is important true what's the third thing so the third thing is you have your niche which people should know you for it will have to clearly define or the market will define you so for example you don't define your niche someone will define your niche so the question is how do you define your niche?

54:43niche means what will you be known for? what is that one thing you will be known for? that niche you have to identify and appropriately communicate that this is my niche and see me in this area. How are these employees doing? Exactly. So, there is a framework you have to follow. Okay? And this is, it's not that if you start today, then tomorrow you'll get a answer. This is an ongoing conversation. This is derived from that Ikigai framework. So, there were basically four questions in Ikigai. What are you good at? What do you love? What the world needs? And what will the world pay for? These are four circles.

55:22But it's a little complicated. So, we'll do three circles. What skill comes to you? what you like to do what will the world give you money so these three when diagrams are linked the intersection of that should be your niche so I'll give you certain examples so for example if we are a sales person so first question and I'll say that overnight answer will not come over a period of time realization comes so first circle is if someone comes to sales that someone will think what I'm doing for 10 years I'm essentially negotiating कर रहा हूं. मुझे पसंद क्या है? मुझे पसंद है लोगों के problem solve करना.

56:00दुनिया कि इस चीज के लिए pay करेगी what is called consultative sales. तो नीश क्या हुआ? I want to be a B2B enterprise sales person. बहुत simple है. तो यह simple framework है जाँद। अगर मैं खुद की बात करूँ, which I do it at home. Number one, मैंने what am I good at? I've been doing consulting and leadership for many years. So I know how clients think. What do I really love to do? I love coaching people. Whether it's online or offline, what will the world pay for really good coaching? That's why I became leadership coach. That's my niche. So every person should have a conversation of a niche. And you're 25 years old, you'll probably get a answer.

56:40But slowly, every 6 months, if you'll do a conversation with yourself, with you, you will have clarity when you have clarity, you can project the world to the clarity. Then you will become market value. But I will say that this is not easy. Time is needed to do this conversation. But it's very important that you identify your niche. If you can give a homework to people, then you should give it. If you can, to start identifying their niche. You know the simple way in content also we think about it. Yeah. In content, we all say that you need to find a niche and niche triple down double down and I find it problematic because it's very important in niche finalize but the way people think about it is wrong is what I think when you say look at niche it doesn't mean that I'm going to be king in data analysis I'm going to be in storytelling I'm going to be in creator like let's not do that yeah the simple is I ask myself five questions yeah okay and so I'll tell you the first line it starts with is the best niche is when you are you.

57:47Yeah. You are your best niche. Yeah. So your niche is Rajshamani's niche is Rajshamani. Yeah. Okay. Now you need to define this. Yeah. How do you define it? You ask me five questions. Where do I come from? What is my age? What is my age? What is my problem? What is my age? And today I'm doing what I'm doing or what I've learned. I have to leave them. Okay. When you combine them, you will get out of your niche. Now what do I mean by that? I come from a tier 2 city. My dream is that I have to do a lot of big name globally. I am in my 20s. My biggest challenge is that I don't want to make money. That's how my dream will be.

58:36And I come to ask how I ask questions. how do I ask people to ask you? Yeah. Right? Yeah. These five are my way and that became my niche. And that is exactly what we do. Excellent. Can I add one point to it? See, your framework is perfect. You should put one angle in it that people will give money for it. Or else I'll tell you what happens sometimes. Perfect. What you're saying is absolutely perfect. Sometimes people always ask me can I convert passion to something full time? The answer is you can if the world will give money for it. Agreed. So if I will do pottery, but for pottery, I will not give money in India, so I am good, I have no value for it.

59:20True. So that angle of third lens, which you said, only one thing about it. Sixth question. Sixth question. The world will give money. True. Either today or in the future. That's the only addition, but this is very important. I agree. And I agree with the point that on the passion thing. I think it's genuinely it's a terrible idea to just go and follow your passion. It is a very bad idea. It's a horrible idea. First is, before you don't earn 50 ,000 ,000 rupees, you can keep the passion and passion. Where you get money, you can earn. First, take care of your family and yourself. Yes. Then ask yourself Hello question about niche and about Okay, now what are the skills I need to make the world's money?

1:00:10Exactly. And we all have done this in the first three or four years, we have only done this for the salary. And there is no wrong thing. You need to set up a corpus in everyone's life. And passion has a lot of time. I'm writing books in 2011. My first book hit in 2021. But I had a corporate career to fund that passion 10 years later I was thinking in one book hitting so following your passion is overrated definitely overrated absolutely it's like you know and I also feel that it ends up becoming passion once you get appreciation in terms of either fame or money yeah

1:00:55so you will eventually find your passion the moment you get good at something you will be like wow my passion I love the honesty Raj fourth lesson I'm going to talk a little controversial it is called embrace politics you have to grow if you say I won't do politics there's no future now I'll give you research there is a famous course in Stanford which is called paths to power Okay So what are the paths of power? Basically it's called Paths to Power In that course And it's super hit elective at Stanford I mean everyone takes So this is how you teach politics Now traditional system of thinking Traditional management literature That you as a leader You build a very strong number 2 You build number 3 You build irrelevant yourself That is good leadership Now in real world You will do all this So if you're an entrepreneur You can still do this But you will do all this now you will replace your number 2 in reality so this course says two principles never prepare a number 2 never prepare a number 2 you stay the most important person as long as you can first principle the second principle says as much as possible all critical decisions should go through you as much as possible you will become indispensable now this is a whole contra to common thinking but it is one of the most hit electives of Stanford and I think this is very right because as an employee as an entrepreneur it is different as an entrepreneur you need to delegate you need to prepare the number as an employee your first priority is to save yourself shareholder value comes a lot in the market we live in and this course fits perfectly into it so embrace politics keep as much power with you as possible tabhi apka career aage bada hai such a terrible advice I am not saying Stanford professors my team members don't listen to this but I agree with it I agree with it at a job level not as an entrepreneur as an entrepreneur you need to create number two number three I agree with this and that's why I am finding it hard to be as an entrepreneur also you should learn a lot of politics in fact you come from a you know Indian religious context as well right I don't know if you have heard or no I've heard a lot of people and I've heard a lot of people that you stay in the house but when you go out you have to be Krishna it's very apt and the only difference between both of them was one Krishna Bhagwan said when you go out I have to win any kind of thing.

1:03:56Yeah, yeah. Like winning is on. And the other person Ram Bhagwan said, I will win but by being the most honest, truthful, disciplined person, I will not do the wrong work. So you keep it in your house, you will do it outside. I don't know if you have heard this or not, but I've heard this a lot, like a lot. And it's true because whether you are an entrepreneur or an employee politics will come knock at your door and you need to know how to master it. Exactly. You have to you cannot say when I started my career honestly my fundamental thinking was that I will do and will see my final appraisal and God will see my rating.

1:04:42That's not happening today. You have to make your rating yourself. You know there's a very famous story from astrology. I've started picking up astrology. It is said that we currently live in Kalyug. Okay. And Kalyug is determined by energy of Rahu. Rahu says exactly what you just said. I will become the number one. Whatever happens, I will become the number one. I will do everything, I will become the number one. And we are Kalyug. Rahu is still alive in time. So, this is very important. There is a very famous story on Lord Krishna that you said. Was Lord Krishna a fair negotiator? And you remember that Karna story?

1:05:17So, Karna story. when actually his chariot attacked he lost his bow and Karan said you are man to man equal fight Krishna said no this is the only time you have to take him down take him down so everything goes outside and again if you to it you have to embrace politics that is the only way you will survive till the top tell me in real world office where we talk about merit and about meritocracy that the talent has the merit that will win the photo will win right this meritocracy is a myth can only merit become CEO or become top or become employee no no rank merit versus politics so politics actually negative word politics is a lot nuances is a one that we understand the wrongdoing.

1:06:20If I think what does it take for a CEO to get to the top? One is a basic skill, technical skill, which you are saying merit. After that, there is something called personal branding. After that, how can you influence people? Storytelling, negotiation. After that, managing politics. After that, managing enemies, which we will talk a little. If I put on a scale, your talent is only 20 % of the whole journey at the highest level 80 % of it is all the other ecosystem we will talk about on that level there is a lot of talent in India there is a lot of talent but 80 % is how you can manage this ecosystem how you can manage that is what determines how you grow that's the reality that is reality and this is just because you are best in your line there is no guarantee that you will go you will go look at basic level of talent is necessary or not anything.

1:07:17After basic, no matter of course. The rest is how you manage the ecosystem. And this is the reality. I think we have when I started my career, I honestly didn't say openly what I wanted to say. We had said that I do this, that I do, that I do. It's important. But if you don't do what I'm going to say, it's not going to happen. I hope people understand and assume that why it's important. it. Fifth lesson. Okay, fifth lesson. I have told you a lot of skills that it's only 20 % but that 20 % is still necessary. So, one thing is that in one framework, why do I give you what sort of skills you should build?

1:08:02So, there is something in leadership which is called a T-model. I don't know how many people have heard. Basically, it says T-model means a horizontal and a vertical. You need to be a jack-of-all trades and master of one at least. So, there is a Japanese concept which is called Kodawari where you can write that one thing is and you can learn something to do it. It can be technical, non-technical anything. In one way, you should basically be the best of the world. Like for you, your ability to have conversations is probably the best in the world. The rest of you are the general skill. So, you should know straight away that you should be deeper पर जाता रहूंगा, where I will be known as an expert, can be sourcing, can be consumer behavior, can be analytic model, जो भी area है, वो एक area identify करना, बहुत जरूरी है, जिसमें लोग बोलने चाहिए, कि Sandeep तू इसमें number one है, so that is the T model for growth, but वो एक is not enough, आपको बहुत सारी areas में, generalist होना पड़ेगा, you should have a little negotiation, a little storytelling, a little modeling but in one area if you are only generalist which are a lot of people doing today your future is not so bright one area you have to be world's number one literally, so that is the T model of leadership growth a lot of people believe that the future is generalist's future is better than masters because AI is an expert he will be able to multiple places generally Generally, in a very broad level, use or implement is a skill that people should learn.

1:09:36So AI generalist will win, not the master. Because knowledge was power until now. So the way I look at it is, it is not either or or. I'm saying pure generalist will not win. I'm saying you can be a generalist, but one area you have to be that specialist. Okay. One area. Because only for the master in that area, you will know you can use as maximum value so it is not either or be a generalist but one area you have to be an expert if you are just an expert he will not be able to if you are just a generalist he will not be able to so that is the T model and this is a long term planning people should have to keep it in their minds now a 25 year old girl will not think about this but in course of time I should be a jack of all trains and master of one that is how they should look at it sixth lesson build a personal brand bigger than your role there is you better no personal brand build but if I said if you want to be CEO your personal brand has to be supreme if your personal brand is strong your company will not remove you you will give more opportunity personal brand is non-negotiable absolutely non-negotiable next question is personal brand how to make a brand.

1:10:57So, I will then this model I want to take a one that has a breath and has a social media and one that has a depth has a in-person event and has a It's necessary. The model means that it's necessary. So, if your audience should definitely start posting on LinkedIn. It is non-negotiated. People say that so much spam and so you have to stand out to follow your tools and techniques, stand out on LinkedIn. It's a simple formula for posting. I'm going to say all this. Rule of three, which you've used in life. So rule of three. Simple things to write. If you want to become an expert in any area, for example, you want to be an expert in AI.

1:11:40Just say something like, Gemini has launched a new LLM. Three interesting things. It's very simple. Now just write it. I read this book, Atomic Habits. Three interesting things. I watch this documentary on social commerce three interesting things as much as you follow this template people are very expert simple second thing I will also say is even if you want to make a career in corporate Instagram is very important people think that Instagram is not just like that if you look at my profile a lot of my business and corporates comes from Instagram a lot of my portfolio of people 25-45 is my highest cohort in Instagram.

1:12:23So, whatever you're making on LinkedIn, you start making on Instagram. Business content. And nobody makes you better, but this is something you should try. The other thing we spoke about is the vertical. That here, in-person events matter a lot. So, for example, I say everyone, in any industry, in any industry, conferences. So, where clients, vendors, organizers in conferences in conferences go to these conferences see what's happening make connections make a stall set up in course of time and slowly become speakers at these conferences brands like that individual will become brands number two I tell people that in person events you have to do whatever college you have to do whatever school go to school go to school go to school who you have to do why?

1:13:11because teaching one what teaching does is I'm going to touch about this in some time teaching is the best way to learn there is something called a learning pyramid and I saw that if you study something to someone you have 90 % mastery for someone to study you are become a master number one number two is the young generation is quite brutal you will tell you how much you know and how much you don't know that is a reality check number three is the generation will be leaders so in your early age network is becoming a network so in your previous college in the college and study. And the first time it can be difficult, but over a period of time, this will give you a lot of reward.

1:13:52I have taught what I have taught in the negotiation story-telling. First, I went to my MBA college and said, I will try it here. And you know how the agency is. It's a very bad-tomiz. It gets hard. But that is the great learning we have. We master and we also learn how to handle them. So, this is very important teaching. It is very important conferences. So, this will have to do regularly so that your brand will show in life. If it's like your brand is solid, you won't leave your brand. Really? Yeah. They will not. They will hesitate twice. Typically, even at the CEO level, they will typically say who has social influence.

1:14:31They will typically, that is a big factor in determining the CEO. Because honestly, it's 5-6 levels. It's the same level. It's a lot of difference in 2019-20. But the influence of the face is better known. that is the person who gets the top job so to that is very necessary if you are an employee base level employee and if you know many people or have a good social following your chances of getting fired reduces chances of moving up increases I'll give you a simple example moving up I agree but then in a world where you don't need to be your skills or whatever you will be fired in absolute terms yes but if you see relatively you versus 5 people you have to take 3 HR or manager that his following is good he has a good brand let's stay with him so relatively to others you have a lesser chance if there is 0 or 1 case if you don't have it you will take it but relatively to others you have a lesser chance lesser chance of getting fired but many people don't go on personal branding journey I think I was late I had a conversation with somebody, the editor of one of the newspapers in 2020, just before COVID.

1:15:55And she had told me this one line, which actually my switch flipped, that if you cannot sell yourself, the world is not going to do it for you. You have to sell yourself. And personal brand is a great way to do this. opportunities within the company outside the company it's very very important why people hesitate today I think one is people don't know what to do like I said people think it's a lot of work like I said this is a template this is a physical event this is a road map one is that the second is that I think cultural is that I talk about how to talk about my achievements my neighbor will judge me so I think that is a hesitation we have to overcome because if your neighbor is judging you today, tomorrow you will not give anything.

1:16:42And one thing is, you should understand all of this, that you are in the ecosystem, that is probably top 5 % of India, or top 10 % of India. There is a whole different world, which can gain a lot from your perspective, or from your perspective. And there is opportunity in life, where there is opportunity. So connecting with as many people as possible, social media is a fantastic way. I'll give you a simple example of a CXO I had coached and she had she had connected online with all the VPs of the world now the thing is her work and she was a very senior person how many people in India know? 10, 20, 30 but because she went on social media and started sharing her perspective in the world there were 100-200 VPs from her first name so when the promotion started in the Bay Area promotion after the promotion started five candidates were given everyone knows who is this and they all backed her she made that career shift not that she was less deserving but everyone is on a level but everyone knows that we know it this is good she got the job very interesting that helps her a lot the small things help her a lot and overall now the trend has also become this that more and more people are realizing that it is necessary to make a personal brand بنانا ضروری ہے including people with insane amount of money wealth and success true all around the world if you see trends 2-3 the students are they are making personal brand executives they are making personal brand the billionaires they are making personal brand there are majority really really smart billionaires in the world they are starting their podcast or starting their podcast appear or they are making brands themselves, writing to start more places.

1:18:37It's a full spreaded spectrum. Yes. Which they are using and they're doing it. Yeah. Like from you look at Elon Musk, Bill Gates, Chamath has started his podcast, Nikhil in India started. Everybody's doing it. Yeah. One more nuance to that is very interesting theory I had read. how does success get measured so what was first success was money you are driving a car how big your house is success was money now what is also happening is what is your social influence is defining your success why is the billionaire coming the answer is that because you are successful if you have a social presence so now the definition of success is a little bit more change and that social following is coming in you know we we have this service and we do this and that most we have so much and we are not able to service it and the demand is we call this building social capital so we are building social capital for really top 0.1 % brands and leaders and CEOs and billionaires and entrepreneurs whoever right we are doing this and it more and more people not just in India around the world have realized that the amount of financial capital was important so you need to build it so we have this entire division where we are building social capital for people and we are surprised that we can't service people and sometimes it's so funny that those people say hi I would die that I would die that brother they said hi they want me to do it for them and I'm like I can't because I don't have resources to do it so it is growing need in the world and more people have realized you know I did a poll in so at one of the IIMs I did a leadership program and there were a lot of senior people had come I had given people two choices one choice I told them that you have 5 crores and you have a phenomenal social brand.

1:20:56Social brand, physical brand. You're famous. Second choice is zero social brand. You have 5 ,000 crores. Which people are? This is with people whose 25-30 years, 20-30 years, very senior people. More than 90 % said we need social. Really? 5 ,000 is a lot of difference. Exactly. That is the value. Because the definition of success is changing. definition of and these are very very senior people come on these are very senior people because because they are measuring success at that point they are measuring success as 5 crore and they are thinking my social brand will get 10-20 crore because my social brand I will get 10-20 crore then 500 crore 5 ,000 much much hundred times that amount because after one stage people think that the money doesn't matter if you talk to a serial leader also they think if you really talk to them after 20 crore I think it doesn't matter.

1:21:53It's just a deposit in the bank after 20 crores. But your social brand is very important. How I am perceived, where do I come, people don't know me. So what you said, I'm just backing it up. Exactly this is what happens. Because definition of success is changing. If you're going to business, it's a very good business. Very good business. You should scale up very, very soon. This is wild. We are scaling up, but this is wild. I didn't choose. choose karta pyawni you have just been 5 ,000 crore in 2015 yeah 5 ,000 crore maybe these are very senior people maybe I'm not in that age maybe 50 crore in the social brand choose karta 5000 in the 1000 in the 1000 in the 2000 in the like that I said you have 5000 crore but social brand will never become I said, it will never become.

1:22:48So, you can make a brand so I was trying to put a value to the brand. I mean, you get 5 ,000 crores but nobody will know you. Who will do it? We have 5 crores for a social brand. I still 5 ,000 crores. Maybe you should ask this in the poll. Let's ask people. I think it definitely depends on two things. One, you are in which you are in the stage and what is currently in your life? What is it not and you said something about what you said there's because I read evolution a lot and psychology a lot in fact neuroscience one of the biggest problem that is invisibility the moment somebody feels they're invisible they either go in depression or they turn into ultra motivation and try to work more correct they don't stay same they don't stay same and majority of CEOs, majority of entrepreneurs, majority of billionaires are driven because in childhood they felt invisibility at some point in their life so they seek validation in their life a lot there's a lot of researches by psychologists have done very interesting perspective maybe that also drives the desire for social acceptance underlying what you're saying invisibility could be now see powerful people they feel inferior in life that's why they're powerful invisibility now see many entrepreneurs they feel like they don't listen to us we've ignored invisibility correct many people who are bullied lack invisibility they all stem from one thing and that drives their to be visible out there now that I think of names it makes a lot of sense makes a makes a yeah it makes a lot of sense it is the fundamental drive to do because I'm thinking of all the big American entrepreneurs none of them in childhood were very popular okay next lesson next lesson is it's very commonsensical which is learning for one hour every day I think people underestimate its value there's a very famous theory which is called five hour rule Elon Musk Bill Gates said that every week you try and learn for five hours just five hours and this will accumulate over a period of time but there are many nuances one is that learning can be anywhere from the book it doesn't need to be watch podcasts you read a book you read a documentary you can be anywhere from the book but its secondary nuance is that you have to absorb it if you are just listening and not doing anything then there is no benefit so there is a theory which is called the cone of learning okay cone of learning so basically it says that how much effectiveness of one medium is so if you are reading basically you are just 7 % of what you are reading you are retaining 93 % loss if you are watching audio visual content podcast audio that number is about 20%.

1:26:08The best way to learn is actually teaching. So whether you are going to college or studying on social media 90 % retention through teaching. So this is very important to know. So I say that you are learning whatever you are learning, just go and write about it on social media. Views come and come and the concept will be clear. That is very very critical. The second thing which I do personally is I have a running notes sheet and I write it in it. Because now I'm reading a lot, I don't remember it. So every two, three months, I go through that running sheet once. Like four years ago, I read something in Harvard Business Review.

1:26:50I read two lines. This research says this. So when I'm sitting in flight, I just go through those running notes. So my mind refreshes. I think it's a very simple technique, but it's a very productive technique. So I never forget what I'm reading. just because of this technique. Every three months I go through those running notes again. So I'll say you simply take a notepad whatever you learn just keep writing every six months just go through it. You will always be top of top of understanding in terms of that. So this also comes from Japanese concept of Kaizen which is improving one percent every day.

1:27:23So this principle of learning every day I think people underestimate it and it accumulates over a period of time. Do you know how I learn it? I I I will watch a documentary for 4-5 hours or a podcast or finish a book. Whenever I finish it, there was no course online. I have a rule that I follow in my life which I call blank paper test. So I test a blank paper. After I take a blank paper and visually flowchart through or something like that. to see that you know goodda gooddie type bana ke explain karne goosh karta ho ki ma isko ek paper pe sif ek blank paper pe joh ma ne poora sikha ho samjha gaya sahta ho aur agar muhje wo dekke sif mein kisi yo dee duung usko samaj jana chahe very nice agar wo kar sakta ho then mein he concept sikha hai nahi toho very nice i just eliminate that part sometimes mein aadhi chiz padhke chhoď bhi djeta ho like i'm okay ki haa myra time waste ho gaya it's okay sometimes mein poora bhoat muj aaccha lagtat and I never understand it on paper so I will redo it.

1:28:32Very nice. And I am okay to learn less things but learn it properly. Very nice. I think that's a very good idea. We'll talk about that sometime also. It's a very good idea. In my room there was a big white board. Before there was a white wall. Now I have my paper in my office, with me. I'm looking at a notepad with me. I have taught anyone. I make either an explainer flowchart or something. like in fact my business plan is 26 page I am going to maybe in 2 minutes I can explain it in a paper so much so much and that also said in great storytelling if you can say everything in one page you've got it clear in your mind it's a very good idea it's a blank paper test it's a fantastic idea fantastic idea next lesson Next one, I actually see this in a lot of people and this is a very big problem.

1:29:32Especially at mid and senior levels is what I say, forget your regrets. You have to get over your regrets. In our life, there are many regrets. We didn't clear the exam, IIT didn't get promoted, I didn't get the college, I didn't get the money. Now, all of us have regrets. But the problem with that regret is, if you will see the subconscious brain structure, there are two areas. One is called a hippocampus and one is called an amygdala. So, amygdala basically is a fear capital. The fear is all that is there. And the hippocampus is stored in it. For example, if I am a bad public speaker, I went to a place and had 200 people on stage.

1:30:18I did a very bad job. And that's my trauma sort of. I will practice all the time unless that trauma is cured next time when I face 200 people that amygdala and that hippocampus will get activated you will practice all the time that regret will come back and most likely you will do a goof up again so this is actually very important to get over regrets there are certain exercises you have to do so that your brain which is wiring will reset so one of the philosophies of if you look at Japanese philosophies when you have seen pottery crack in the middle people put gold layer and make pottery again one piece so that you tell people that regrets are okay and you should celebrate them the neuroscience theory is there is something called exposure therapy exposure therapy you can overcome exposure therapy basically that your past trauma say you faced an audience you really did badly you gave an interview you did very badly this is a trauma you have to be exposed in a controlled environment and rewrite it how do you do this it is again going back to that paper what you just touched upon so to everybody who is listening to it and some of India's biggest CEOs have done this with me so you take a sheet of paper divide it into two parts and you replay that old experience of yours, drawing it as much as you can.

1:31:50So, for example, 200 people have gone, you panic, draw it in full detail. You panic, words are not coming out, people are unhappy. That is the before picture. That is where you are awakening that past. Now, on the right side of the paper, you have to rewrite this memory. So, basically, you have to imagine the same thing and draw it. You have given a lot of great presentation. People are killing it. Everybody is saying, great job, Sandeep this exposure therapy will rewrite some of those hard wirings in your brain slowly you will see your regrets will be reduced this is one of the most common neuroscience techniques and this should be done and that painting whatever your regret you panicked in front of an audience interview went badly whatever your regret you should make a sheet for each of them paste it on your board see it everyday next time you will go into that situation either your amygdala flare or your a hippochamist flare-up.

1:32:48You will see slowly, it's being controlled. The way to overcome public speaking fear is through practice. No, you have to calm your mind first. Subconscious brain will has to be calmed. So this is very, very important. People don't understand this enough. Very interesting. Pretty, you know, in a way, what you are doing is that. What you just described is actually what you are doing in a way. Pretty, I didn't think this. I always thought that your regrets are in life. No. You don't need to do it. No, but I always thought that if there's any fear or regret, there's some wrong thing, and if there's any fear, and your nervousness gets, it flares up, and your body reacts.

1:33:29The way is, if you think about the future, what do you think about it? Don't think about it. Like, the way I would, if my public speaking fear and I have fucked up, and I have screwed up bad, and if I want to go outside, then I would train like this till now, because I feel very scared. I paint a picture and I visualize that when I go, how do I see? Right side I paint. Yes, only the right side. I didn't do the left side painting. Because you have to trigger the image. Because what will happen, when you go to the next time, that memory will get triggered. But the right side is not getting linked to the left side.

1:34:09So, that linkage is very important. That you bring in the past trauma in the controlled environment, in the environment bring up and say no no okay not a problem it will be fine so that's why both sides of the picture matter you have to bring up and then calm it down so I was doing only half you were doing the right side you should do the left side also I'll try to do it because right has worked pretty good for me let's see if left makes it even better the thing is only if you have that trauma at this stage maybe at this stage of life you may not have no but something will happen somewhere there are so many things I have moments and people and podcasts where my energy and myself has just succumbed into a very bad person which I'm not and I'm scared so I was like can I come up and become better so maybe if you can think of your in your experience say this is my poorest podcast draw it and then do the to be so in the future if that left situation ever comes the right will take over after some time it's a very important very simple exercise very powerful I've done this for myself very very powerful it's called exposure therapy comes from neuroscience excellent exposure therapy exposure therapy you're exposing yourself to some form of trauma and correcting actually people take it very serious for it you know sometimes women have issues childhood trauma they use it against that but in corporate also limited this works very very well so next lesson so the next lesson I want to talk about it it can trigger a little bit that never be loyal in business loyalty if you from a job perspective loyalty is only rewarded with stagnation if you need growth you can't do anything with loyalty let me explain this how and I know a lot of people will react to this one research has been that if you don't pursue your interest which means if you don't change 2-3 years you will not grow so there is an article in Fortune that said that those who grow every 2-3 years grow کرتے ہیں unko 25 to 30 percent money zyadha miltah unko opportunity zyadha miltah to agar aap sir loyal rehenge aap company ko aap karrier kahin nai jane wala purani din ho may kya hod had had aap 25 saal aap company mein kaam keji you will become the CEO aaj ki nai thinking increasingly ban rhea ki CEO baar sa na chahi

1:36:41like that after a quarter of a year, your company, that promotion, salary is not given the job deserving. You should talk to your manager for six months. After that, if the company is not given you again, that means they don't value you. Whatever they may tell you, they don't value you. They think you're not good enough. Then you have to go elsewhere and make your mark. And if I look at this on my own career, year per day I worked seven and a half years in one company four years four years this is one of the biggest mistakes I made. Every two two years if I shifted I would have been at a much higher place in my life.

1:37:22Why do people do this? Because I also see myself the stability of my experience that I am safe, people know me and I don't want to do it. It's actually a very bad idea. Every two to three years if your company or your salary or promotion is not able to give you you have to shift. This is where courage comes in. This is where guts comes in. You want to be a CEO, you have to make shifts. You don't want to be a CEO, stay in the same company. I partially disagree. Absolutely disagree. Because the nuance is, if you don't have a big company, maybe that works. But if you join in a small company, in a fast-growing startup, switching career and leaving that boat is a terrible idea.

1:38:06But in a small company, में शायद आपको वो opportunity दी जाएगी तो फिर आपको अपना due मिल रहा है and sometimes I'll tell you 0.01 % employees को मौका मिलता है कि वो एक छोटे से start-up में जहां पर 100-800 लोग या कम लोग हैं उधर join करते हैं और वो month on month fast growing हो और वो country level पे potential show करती है और वो is growing quickly. So, whatever is in the fast-growing startup environment, and in the small company, which is small, means, sub-par-hundred, or somewhere around that, not like 500 ,000. And if there is a startup in the startup, they should not leave it. I agree. Because, they are getting their growth.

1:38:55I'll come to that. Sometimes, there too, 2-3 years, you won't get growth. Because, you're trying to manage chaos. But, 3 years of growth, probably you get 10 years after 10 years after 5 years probably you get a big game in the IPO day right if it's fast growing and you can see a sign if it's 2-3 years down probably you can do the same thing and you can save yourself as an employee right 1 year you should give the opportunity to the company you should see but if you're in a fast growing environment It's a terrible idea to leave because trust me in fast growing startups, you get a lot of opportunities to become a bigger person as well if you just stick around.

1:39:51Even in a chaotic environment. And I've seen this time and again, not just with our startup, with multiple of my friends and their startups, which is insane stories. that a marketing intern 11 years in the same company 11 years later ended up becoming a marketing lead and made 30 crores in ESOPs and IPO and this is not one story hundreds of stories like these if that intern left him with his there's nothing in our own company in the beginning 4-5 people who stick around and exceptionally talented people who thought our talent is 10-20 %-30 % they have shifted salaries and they are going out the other two people who are lesser talented they stuck around now they make significantly way more money than what the other people are doing outside I and it's and the only caveat and nuance is that if you are in a fast growing startup then I would so fine large company we agree my personal take is even in a fast growing company which are saying if for a half to three years see a fast growing company there is opportunity exposure even if the money is not okay you should stick because at some point the money will come if you are getting that exposure for a half to three years if you believe my personal opinion for a half to three years if you are not getting your due whether it is opportunity money you should move on you should wait for two to three years I am saying the same thing two to three years you I understand that 3-4 years you don't get anything so maybe that company will give you fast growing startup not anything correct but I have seen this time and again and I know this personally because as an angel investor I have seen a lot of things I have seen a lot of things I have seen a lot of things 3-4 times right it as an entrepreneur and a lot of entrepreneurs will agree to this you are growing you are growing who doesn't know what your growth plan tomorrow so you can't make a growth plan now how many big big big HR companies they tell you that your growth plan is this when you sit in companies like Unilever you have a growth plan and chart when you sit in companies like you have no growth plan because CEO doesn't know what growth plan is and if he is making and telling you he is saying it and Zomato companies have also been which is one of the best IPO stories in the country.

1:42:31I was sitting with Dipinder I had the same conversation and he said the same thing. And even today in Zomato there are many people who have no growth plan right? And this is every startup journey whether you're a small startup like ours or a large startup like Zomato in all of this. There's no growth plan and the only reason for that is I don't know what's going on. It's chaos. You have to see there and there you have to see this in the company in this situation, I will do this and increase. And when you do it from the other side, you feel like for two years, three years, that I was becoming a video editor before 0-1, now I became a content writer, in two to three years I'm editing a massive trailer.

1:43:17I'm always doing 0-1. All of a sudden, the company will say, hey, you come to all, this new division is open, the whole production house is open, you lead it. and that happens way more than than than it happens in any average company every startup has gone through this like you'll hear stories after hear stories if you talk to startup people that they were doing sales all of a sudden company said go to new states and go to new states in that country maybe only a COS or an assistant said go to new countries and go to new states and go to new states and handle new randomly 2-3 years after you have such opportunities which is way above your pay grade skill, aptitude, talent just because company knows you stuck along company can trust on you company knows you think with the DNA which is made of company because it is the most difficult to find out the DNA of startup and company knows you are a fighter and trust me I have seen sometimes this is and I know specifically people who have done this scenarios where companies have stuck around you have a whole new territory and you have under a top level CEO IITIM that this will report you because it will make it strategically you are just our loyal business my only so I perfectly agree what you said absolutely the only difference I would say is any startup I am going to understand your point that a really good opportunity will take a year, two, three years until you are probably meandering but the employee should know or should realize that my skills are getting a fair due either money, ESOP or recognition or just understanding I think the employee should say I should say I'm getting my fair share.

1:45:24It's not money-wise, but in the future I'll come. But I'm getting my fair share. I think until that employee can be honest conversation that I'm getting my fair share, either money, growth, ESOP, then what you're saying is fine. But if an employee is feeling, and my personal belief again, that it's been 2-2 years and I'm not getting my fair share, we should move on, even if it's a fast-growing startup. That's how I see it. Now, the question is, how do you feel the employee is a different thing? That is how I would. I still disagree with that because as an entrepreneur I'm telling you you are so busy in growth sometimes and this is purely on entrepreneurs all entrepreneurs on behalf of every friend that I have I'm telling you and I'm saying this because we've had this conversation again and again okay not saying it for other entrepreneurs I don't know I'm talking about your friends somebody who's running a 5 crore company 100 crore company thousand crore company, fifty thousand crore company on behalf of all entrepreneurs I'm saying this right that you are growing so fast you don't know that you were with your who were with you because of which he will keep some work in which you are growing you don't see that credit and you know why you are not able to see that credit because you automatically automatically, those 4-5-10 people believe that they are in your close growth circle and they will make a reward with you.

1:46:55Somehow, you start thinking that they are also entrepreneurs who are waiting for a large profit pool. Which is a wrong strategy to think. Which is a wrong way to think. You take this from your mind that maybe that employee is and that you need month-on-month, year-on-year growth. You don't have any attention. So somebody like this, who knows that he is very good, and is not getting his due, and you have two or two years old, have an honest conversation with the entrepreneur. Yeah. Because you will 90 % of the times realize that you value a lot, but as entrepreneurs don't value themselves, it's not yours because they thought that you are in a close circle.

1:47:34Exactly. And I think it's just have that conversation and you'll realize that your due is not going anywhere. You're going to get your due and you're going to get due way better and way more than any of your colleague because you are the star and a loyal person in the company. Have the conversation or give that entrepreneur six months to 12 months to six months to 12 months deliver and then take a call. Completely. No, completely in sync. In terms of that, I'll only say I come more from an employee mindset. I come from an entrepreneur mindset. So, I want to say one thing whether large company or small company, you should learn to be selfish.

1:48:1118 months, have a conversation. Give your firm six months to 12 months. Can't deliver. Move on. Agreed. Completely. Agreed. Absolutely agreed. You know, so if you're not selfish, you can't even grow in a company. Correct. Company only won't reward you. Correct. For very long. Because you need to understand that. And you do it. Correct. And there have been instances in history of our organization where when we were growing but slow growing and some employees outgrew us. and they came to us for bigger opportunities and before even they spoke about it we said that you go out and go out and do this because you can do exceptionally good maybe you can do we've had at least I know four or five people who have gone out of this system they went out because we can't give it growth today we have immense growth like anybody who wants to become an entrepreneur we fund them to just build this and do crazy stuff.

1:49:16In the beginning it doesn't happen to us. And we have I have personally had a conversation like you go outside and do this. I will give you my 10-20 friend circle as your first client to build this as a thing and they will be your first billable so that your salary will double outside already you will start making money on day one. I will do that and in return we take nothing. It's like you're our person. I told you about Sindhi community that is exactly what you're saying. there are multiple people and today I'm so proud there are few people few entrepreneurs who are now making like who probably are earning salary here 20 ,000, 40 ,000, 50 ,000 100 ,000, 200 ,000 today 2 ,000, 3 ,000, 4 ,000 ,000 which is so cool yeah very nice absolutely most entrepreneurs understand this they will reward if you have and if company can't provide you something that you have and you'll have a hard to work conversation with a good guy, good entrepreneur, they will either give you something to build something bigger or give an opportunity or tell you and be like, if you are patient, I will earn a lot of money.

1:50:27Right? Yeah. Either or cases. Correct. Or they'll be like, go out. We will, I have made some money. Personally, I'll fund you to do it. Correct. Correct. And they'll do it. Yeah. Now that is very good to hear. That is extremely good to hear. But again, if they are not having the conversation or not showing you the path it won't work out fair that's the have a conversation have a conversation no harm and then take a call whether it's the right time just a little time just like you know that it's not a year in a year 18 months is what I would say my personal opinion large company small 18 months have a chat evaluate it 24 months that's how and just go through this process in your mind I think it's a brutally selfish method but sometimes to see yourself self-interest.

1:51:12Loyalty is a bad thing with nuances. That's what he's saying. I'm not saying.

1:51:19You know, one more thing. I'll give you an example. Sorry, before you saying that. Japan, there's a system where people are very loyal employees. Yeah. When they're very senior, they don't have their needs and they're very better. They get their senior executive salary and their work is to go to the office and just sit and read the newspaper. Their work is not to be done. Their work is to sit and chill and drink. You just read the newspaper and go back and you'll get a salary. That's it. And why did they get it? Because the company rewards loyalty and it's a very very important principle in Japanese tradition which follows a big company today.

1:52:07We should all do that.

1:52:12i if my if my company's finances and unit economics will allow and if i won't be able to give outside returns to my people who have been with me for 25-30 years i'll do that very nice for sure even if the company doesn't is not able to do it i'll do it from my own net worth i'll do it my family is like that it's lovely my father is my father does this my dad does this my father does this they've all done it in their own capacity they've all done it they've all done it they've all done it they've all done it they've made their careers and lives and they're part of our families you know this is another thing I know about Gujarati Sindhi and Madhavadi families when they build even if you see Ambani's the number two Mukesh Ambani will be very very rich and that person has been with Mr.

1:53:09Ramani for 30 years and he's now the CEO so this inner circle is running for 20 years and all of them have made insane money I think that's a business principle you follow and it's a very big principle identify your 10 people they are like family grow with them all of you become insanely rich and that's a very good principle I believe in that that's a very good principle okay next principle, next lesson next principle is I'll talk about work-life balance on this topic. My favorite topic is how many last time I had said. This is a very nuanced conversation. So let's see what all people are saying.

1:53:47Firstly, there is a culture in China called 996. You work for 9 to 9. 6 days, for 72 hours. Mr. Narayan Murthy said that without 70 hours, there is nothing in life. That's principle one. Principle two, people say that you will do so many hours. work, the Chinese government, whatever you say, you will be burnt out, it is bad for your health, etc. So, you don't want to be burning out. Shahrukh Khan himself said that if you want to do something extra in life, you have to say something like that. Shahrukh Khan himself. So, what is nuance? This is what I want to say. You have to seek what is called work-life integration and it is a little different.

1:54:25One is, one principle is that if you have One in a generation career to make 70 hours a week. I've done it myself. You're done it. You're done it. Without 70 hours working on a generation career doesn't make it. Number one principle. Virat Kohli also has to do so. Number two. The question is, you put 70 hours

1:54:50on your job, which I think is a bad idea. You should put 40-45 hours in the office and the rest of 25 hours should only work on yourself. Your skills, your brand, your networking. That is how you should see work-life integration. 40 to 40 to 45, 50 hours max for office. Other 20 to 25 hours on yourself. If you have 20-22 hours you don't work on your career, you don't go anywhere. So, you have to work on all the work and split is a little different in terms of that. That is how we should all look at work-life balance. So I want to say this all. If you want to become a CEO, if you want to become one in a generation career, you have to make sacrifices.

1:55:35We've all made sacrifices on the personal front, on social occasions. We've sacrificed everything. We've sacrificed our sleep, we've sacrificed our hair, everything we've sacrificed. So this is necessary. You need to do one in a generation career, 70 hours, but no how to split that 70 hours. This is a little nuance that you need to understand. If you don't want outsized returns, then it's okay to just be. Like I said, you don't want to become a CEO. You don't want to become a one-in-a-generation success story. Do what you are regularly doing. You don't want to go with the flow. You don't want to become a normal.

1:56:06You want to become a one-in-a-generation. You have to make sacrifices. What do you think about right to disconnect, Bill? Look, one is intent and one is reality. I think one of the MPs launched it in Parliament. explain to people, what is right to disconnect bill? Right to disconnect bill I think Europe first started in France, if I am not mistaken. Basically, it is that 6 hours after 6 or 6 hours you do not have to respond to emails or teams' messages or SMS's. Basically, that is right to disconnect. I am completely disconnected because there are many places there is expectation that I have written something on WhatsApp and a half hour should have responded.

1:56:49So, it is legally that it is not necessary to respond. do not need to respond in France. In France, I think we will do one step that you cannot send even after 6 hours. One is that you cannot respond I think you cannot send in some legislations You cannot send in some legislations. Now, that is the intent so that people don't have this 24-7 phone you are responding In India, if you see this is impossible to implement because some of it is because we are inefficient some of it is our money doesn't work so if you go to any client facing industry the client will ask you at 6am to call 1 hour meeting you will say no I am right to disconnect so that will work so in India if the intent is good execution is impossible what is your opinion what do you think I think it should be intent is right execution is not possible execution is not possible there is nothing I think this is a nuanced answer.

1:57:50I will not say it is blanket reality. There are certain industries which have to work 12 hours. If you look at Amazon, in the past 5 years, people have worked 20 hours a day. And it is efficient working. But it seems that there are some industries that are probably necessary. Now the COVID crisis is going on. The bureaucrats of government will work 18 hours. And people are dying on the road. So, they have to do it. Indian railways are running, an accident has been all 20 hours. So, this is a nuance that if you don't have any extreme situation, if you have a stable business running, then you should have to do it.

1:58:32But if anything is outside the ordinary, then you should not do it. Anything is outside the ordinary. Because if an accident has been, like if a doctor doesn't say, I can write to disconnect. A gynec who is delivering your baby, if he says, 6 hours later, I will not see the phone when your child is coming and your problem is that the system will not go out so I think we can do it in a routine business other than routine business is a lot of difficult I feel that everyone should be right to deal with them to message them to reply them to not listen to them to joke them it's everybody's right to do it if you have a mind to reply to your work then do it if it's not, close to 6, everything is right right but fast growing startups ones in a generation kind of company ones in a generation kind of opportunity big things yeah it's not possible I agree if you want to be part of that ecosystem and you want to be part of that area you have to work exactly like an entrepreneur you own certain things and when you own certain things you take ownership 24 7 there's nothing like half ownership yeah there's nothing like half pregnant yeah exactly it's like if you're pregnant with a baby you're fully pregnant yeah and you till the time the delivery cycle complete it not until your last thing your 24-7 365 days whatever that goal is completely you need to work like that if now it's up to you are you that person or no if you're not that person and you don't want to do it tell your employer up front that I am like this and that I am like this set those expectations and be like I will give you a chance to give you 6 years I am that person who's gonna kill it but after six I need my life set this and then move on.

2:00:41Yeah yeah. I agree stable setups you can try it any whether it's fast growing government, healthcare it's a difficult it's not possible. So many nuances and so many content business is 24-7 business Saturday 9pm if you have to go news is a 24-7 business Zomato New Year's Diwali holy demand is a lot of demand you have to do something new year what do you do? if you don't join the same thing if you don't join the same thing everyone is working 24 hours to recover that from that situation stable business yes but fast growing anything which is like out of slow steady growth even the government even the government has to work 12 hours 24 hours next lesson next lesson I want to talk about is learn to say no but be diplomatic Diplomacy is a lot of value People don't understand If I give you examples Of two or three CEOs Sundar Pichai Satya Nadella And even Rajat Gupta The good part of Rajat Gupta So one of the reasons they all Became CEOs Because they were not their mission in the company They got along with a lot of people They were not seen as combative They were not seen as Polarizing they were all made.

2:02:07Now, sometimes people think that being likable is a wrong thing. But being diplomatic is a... One of the reasons, if you read Rajat Gupta's biography, there's a book called Billionaire's Apprentice, when I was written in this book, one of the reasons he became the MD before all the issue happened is because he was well-liked by everybody. No one was not his enemy. If you don't have any enemy, then you will go up. So, one of the values, what happens is, learn to be diplomatic. it's a lot of nuances number one if people say in the workforce that I will do something with the front because I want to be authentic and that is my natural style I would like to say that this is not authenticity you have got a communication skills this is not authenticity you should learn to deliver a bad message without being rude because diplomacy is a lot of value in terms of that and why is that If you look in Indian cultures, we come to the heart and trust, the role of the face is very important.

2:03:10The role of status and role of the face. If you have insulted someone, in our culture, that is a huge problem. Because how do you think the subconscious brain? The subconscious brain comes to anger, when you open a door, the subconscious brain says, I will die on the road, but I will not do your own. When the ego comes to the talk. So that is why you never insult people no matter how small. Because people don't forget insult. And when every dog comes, someday that person will get into a position of power and harm you. So if you do not have enemies, which means you do not insult people, half of your opportunity is open.

2:03:55No one will oppose you in life. Now the question is, people say that how do we say no? how to say no. Because no to say no. No to say no. No to say no. Less likeable. There are ways to say no. I struggle to say no. And many Indians struggle to say no. One is what we say. Separate the transaction from the person. Separate the transaction from the person. I was in consulting. And we had to give difficult messages. So what we would do is on the slide. When we would say this person has not done it. We would never write the person's name. he would write his title simple act just without writing the person's name and the title negative news come negative simple as well there are four ways to say no also if somebody comes and tells you one is what is called that sometimes delay the problem give me 24 hours if you don't want to say no to say if someone will be angry give me 24 hours to come back if you don't have that liberty secondly is to say I can't do it but here is an alternate resources to help you this can do something else, this is my material.

2:05:00The third way to say no is to say, I can do it for you, but I don't have to do two existing things. If you have a de-prioritization, I can do it for you. These simple tactics go a long way without, so that you don't burn your equation. If you don't have a new enemy in life, you will go up. No one can stop. And this is a very important principle that never insult anybody in office. As a small intern, because it will become very important after 20 years. And like I said, the subconscious brain always thinks, sometimes I won't do your work with you, I'll die on the road. So this is a very important principle of diplomacy.

2:05:39But then there is an idea that people are being fake. If you don't like somebody, and then you pretend that you like them, then you are becoming fake. Okay, good question. If you do not like somebody, one don't have to spend time with them two you can always have civil courtesy you don't have to bond with it but civil courtesy you can keep hi how are you just don't have to do it but don't have to do it so you don't like a person just maintain basic courtesy smile hi hello and move on don't have to do it people say that I don't have to see the face I don't have to do it so that's wrong no it happens it happens but just maintain civil courtesy if you will see politicians India's best politicians no matter how bad the opponent is they maintain civil courtesy someone will come back he will hug hand shake because you always have to convey the things this is not personal we are learning on transactions I don't have any personal courage with you civil courtesy always wins first impressions again the first impression if the first impression is the other person hates you there is no chance so I would like to repeat one thing if you you are screaming in office because you think that is my authentic skill.

2:06:57It's not authenticity. Your communication skill is bad. That is a statement I want people to land. That's a very, very good statement. I've been guilty of that. No, no. I've also been guilty of that. I'm also going to be a little bit of a drink. We've all done it. I'm like, I'm straightforward. Deal with it. I've just realized that that's a bad way to say it. Yeah. So, I've also done it. We also learned it. I still struggle with it. I'm still a you know more and more podcasts I make with people like you more and more I realize I'm I'm so stupid I'm so dumb I'm probably 1 % of my knowledge and that is so good because then you guys teach me and I get 1 % better everyday like just just come here how many times I have my own patterns negative traits mistakes mistakes I identify I make notes in the middle of it that this will be implemented I'm blessed like that but and I've also realized I'm just a I'm just a curious guy who is who's stupid who's dumb who's young and naive who wants to grow so I have like zero ego and shame about it when you come and like disrespect me and tell me that you're a beware and I'm like yes that was the point of today's conversation but Raj I think it is a great quality that you can say that you know a lot of people at your yours is a one in a century kind of success you've got you're on that level and you're going to say you know who I am who you are you're giving me I think for you to say that I every day I'm in learning mode itself is such a huge mindset achievement.

2:08:53So when your family asks how long will it go? Until you're curious this business will be very good. That is the answer you should give your family. That's it. Nice. I'm going to tell this to your family. Until I'm curious until I'm making a rose note and make something new small tactic I'm trying to try at home my business will be running. That's it. That is such a good wow. I'm going to say this in public forum as well. because you know honestly even if I had your success I don't think I would have been as humble as you were. I would have said I mean I'm a 30-year-old I'll listen a little bit but I won't listen but I think you have that humility about yourself which is why probably you've done so well also.

2:09:34Trust me you're like me and I'll tell you why. Every day I have 50 % more accomplishments and I tell you they're intellectually superior. So you you don't want to feel like you.

2:09:51You sit with a day with Bill Gates. You sit with a day with a world top athlete. You sit with a day with a day with a day with a day with a day. Who are you? You sit with India's top addiction doctor. You sit with an expert. You sit with a really accomplished leader. You sit with top 20 schools. two people sit with me. Now that day, I go to the house and go to the house, thank you, that these people give me time. So, I think, I'm not doing anything special. Whatever happens in my place, it's the same as me. Trust me on this. Life will, life teaches you to be humble, and be, and accept the fact that you're dumb, and you're intellectually inferior to people.

2:10:41that by hook or crook you learn very nice can I ask you one question you seriously have no regret in life no nothing so you never think that I wish I had done this wow zero no has it have you worked on it or you just don't never comes I'm just not wired like that wow that is that is amazing I mean I do a lot of CEO coaching they always start with this I didn't do well that I used to look at life I'm also very young no no but your level of success is insane your age has nothing to matter it's with that journey you've had zero wow zero that is amazing I can make up regrets be like oh my engineering first mindset so maybe realistically that is amazing that's why that that is where the champion mindset comes from because maybe our regrets hold us back and that's why you're not being held back probably very good I'm very optimistic I feel like I won't stop.

2:11:42What is your worst fear in life? Do you have any fear? No. I have two very, one very surface level fear and one very deep fear. Surface level fear is that,

2:11:57you know, because I am very public facing and I talk a lot about it. The podcast is a lot faster. The public facing fear is people judge too soon. So that's like, They should watch the entire journey, the entire body, entire story. They should find out and then make an opinion. To me, that's sometimes fear that because on the internet, there are so many clips on the internet on the 50 places. I don't want to see any child just one part of my story and influence it. Correct. So that's my fear. Sometimes I feel very scared that some guest gave some advice and someone hasn't watched the podcast and a small advice cut away because someone will get a view and a particular influencer has got a clip cut away and people will influence or will bash him negative or positive particularly if I feel scared I feel very big responsibility I can't control it.

2:13:09Correct. It's a genuine fear. That is a valid fear. Because we're dealing with so many things. Imagine our whole nuance or context doesn't listen to anything. And the loyalties are bad. The whole subtext doesn't listen to anyone. No one doesn't listen to anyone. He will imply it in his relationship, in his family, in his workplace. And to me, that's a fear. If someone's mindset is a child and listen to it, I don't want to be responsible for that. Yeah. And that is a, yeah, because you are impacting millions of people. So that's a small clip. Imagine doctor advice. Has it happened to you? No, not yet.

2:13:43I don't know. I just think about it. Imagine a doctor advice. He will do Ayurvedic work for someone. He will do homeopathic work for someone. He will do allopathic work for someone. He will do top cardio surgeon for someone. He will do functional doctor for someone. Everyone works for someone. Correct. There is. I say doctors who say that it's right I'm exactly the opposite field I want to debate and I know both will be wrong I've done this enough right so I feel I'm scared that I think I think an Ayurvedic expert who took a little clip and took a person in their life or a health principle or a human or a pet or a yellow to me that's a genuine fear yeah that's just one one of the same fear if you listen to it then the informed opinion I'll make it totally I'm doing it because I want you to learn more and talk more so that to me and a I blame myself for that b I blame social media for that and c I really highly intellectual people who promote this propaganda so that 2-4 followers will blame them.

2:15:05So we are all part of it. And you should carry this portion. I think. Because it's very deep what you just said. And you should carry this portion. If I were you, I would do it. Because it also teaches the audience to be a little responsible. Like you rightly said, if someone just catches that first line and goes berserk without understanding the seven subtext. so so many times it has happened and people for some of you because it's your face they will get views they do it so many people do it it's a responsibility which I have so I'm very scared of that so that's my one fear and the deep one and the deep one my personal this is my profession because of my fear my personal fear don't laugh at it but the fear is I think my dreams will be full sorry

2:16:03I told you I told you I told you I told you everybody else what is your I don't know if I should ask you what is your wildest dream you told me number one in the world let's say like today that's the wildest dream that you'll get there right then what do you do I don't know that's my fear I think I think that I genuinely cracked and delusional, you know me since so many years. And you're the testament, you were my first guest. You were my first guest. Online, I was sitting on the chair and I was making a podcast on the back of the chair. I was doing it on Zoom so that I could do it. You know this, right?

2:16:43From that setup, now you've seen me growing. Yeah. Every year, setup, podcast, revenues, number, team, everything is big. you saw me where we have 50 people and 23 people are watching live from there we have billions of views per month country ranking 1, Asia ranking 1, continent ranking 1 we have all done you have seen all of that so at least you can say I am delusional I used to believe in it I will become the only one I heard that even number 1 even then and yeah I remember that and I feel like I'm thinking a little bit but okay I'm young I'm going to do it and I feel like my dreams will be complete and I feel like the chase of the dream is my biggest time I wake up for that I don't have any fun so I feel like that you know post-athlete career depression I don't want that I want that post-retirement there is so much you can do of course I can but my fear is that we will be full so that's the problem because I genuinely enjoy I enjoy the person I'm becoming in pursuit of my dream more than the dream we'll get back to our topics next lesson so the principle I want to say as much as possible don't ask for permission ask for forgiveness this is a principle in companies this is a very famous story about Google so you may have heard about this that early 2000s internet explorer was the default browser and then Google toyed with the idea we should make our own browser so senior leadership Eric, Sergey etc they said no, they don't challenge Microsoft we go through them, why offend them so Sundar Pichai in a very famous story did not agree with the analysis so he got a team of few people built chrome showed the product showed it to the leadership and said what do you think when they had the product they realized yeah this is 80 % market share the product is so good and they did it so Sundar Pichai himself says if I get permission that idea always killed but because I did not take permission today it's the biggest blockbuster product it's 80 % market share 90 % market share so this principle and maybe you can't use it every level इसको use नहीं कर सकते हैं, बढ़ जितना हो सके, just do it, कुछ गलत हो गया, बाद में apology मांग लेना, अब जितना permission लोगे, because people at the top बहुत risk-averse होते हैं, कि नया कुछ मत करो, पैसे लगेंगे, कुछ गड़बड हो जाए, जितना हो सके, do it yourself, do it yourself, do it in a pilot, and if it's success, then look at your bosses.

2:19:34This is a big big way to grow. The fast growing environment is 100 % to do it. Even in traditional firms, we should do it. Even in consulting, we used to do this. We knew that our partners would agree not to do it. We used to go to the client, have a coffee conversation and say, what do you think about this idea? The client said, yes, it's big, it should do it. Then, if we say to the client, if we say it, it will not be able to do it. you ask me this question in the meeting tomorrow. And the client was asking and we had an answer. And the partner said, the client is asking, let's do it. And we used to get the work done.

2:20:06So this is a very important principle because some of your biggest ideas have come because of this. But then, sometimes employees are scared that if we have experimented on the site and it has failed, then people will get angry. They will get angry. Look, the culture of the company is also dependent. There are a lot of traditional companies. They say, you went off script, we will fire you. Google is going on in the culture. Here it is. Here it is. Any fast growing company, modern company, it will go on. People will not see it wrong. If there are a very traditional company, it can be seen wrong.

2:20:38So use your judgment appropriately. But generally, it's a principle you should always follow. Even if you're in a traditional company, you feel the idea is dumb. Get some influential person to say the same thing. If not your boss. Then it will be done. Fair. that's how you look at it until you become an influential person until you become the influential person interesting last lesson last lesson this is actually my mom always and then I researched and I really loved this principle my mother always says learn to eat alone learn to eat alone you have to grow in life you have to learn eat food because it's the conventional method that's the conventional thing the story is as followers as follows and I do a lot of CXO coaching that leadership is a very lonely journey if you ask to any CXO what is your number one fear and number one thing everyone will say that we are not friends or we don't talk about friends in the company so one is leadership is a very lonely journey why eating if you see eating in our Indian culture it is associated with relationships and it is associated with joy.

2:21:58If you have to grow in truth in life, you have to let go of some relationships. Because even if you think about friendships, I always say that when you are average, you have friends. When you are below average, you don't have friends. When you are doing very well also, you don't have friends. Because there are various reasons. If you are doing a good life in life, then your friends will get reduced. Because everyone is asking you something to do with you. Or you can also outgrow yourself. If you are doing a bad thing in life, then people think what is the benefit of talking about this? So when you are average, you will have a lot of friends.

2:22:34Just like you are going up in life, friends start going away. You should not feel that this is bad. And you should not feel this at the dinner table or the lunch table. My mother always says, if you are growing in life, learn to eat alone. It's a very powerful principle. I saw this journey myself, leadership is actually a spiritual journey. You are, your family will stay a few days, and you are, and the people are up and your food. This is the leadership. The rest will be coming and staying, etc. So, this is a very important thing. If you are watching this, I recommend that you go to McDonald's tomorrow, KFC, wherever you go.

2:23:17eat one meal alone. Every week, just eat one meal alone. At home or outside. And you will slowly see that the burden of relationship, the burden of expectation is slowly coming out of your mind. That the time is only for this reason, that you have to go with your friend, you have to go with your friend, you have to take a lot of time. We only have to take responsibility for you. Exactly. And that mental bandwidth is going to you. When you sit alone, and I think staying alone is a very good thing. if you want to go up in life seriously, you need to carve out 30 minutes a day when you are alone.

2:23:53Don't do anything, just sit alone. You are in the park, you are in the cab, don't do anything, just sit alone. Because that is your true connection with the universe. You can see, there's amazing clarity in life. And whoever I have told CEO in India, they hear it and they say no, then they come back and say, I'm saying it's not wrong, I'm saying it's very wrong. So learn to eat alone is the final thing. Every week, one meal, you are going on your journey to growth. You know, you agree? Disagree? I have to disagree with this. I want to disagree. I want to say that join family, family value, family value, friends value, and all these will grow on a different level.

2:24:37You will become a network. You will grow on a different level. All of that.

2:24:44but genuinely in my own journey it's a very simple I hate being alone I am scared of being lonely I'm scared of eating alone at home and I almost cry every day when I have to eat alone but I agree to what you said the most important thing is my growth life when I was only with myself I was with myself, I was with ideas, I was with the work, I have no pressure. Somehow, slowly, slowly, slowly, my friends have decreased that it will not come, I don't call it. I call it 1000 times, now 10 times. Automatically, and not even 10 times, I almost expect that probably you won't come, so there's no social pressure.

2:25:29If I feel like going only then I go, or else I won't go. So it's like, and that has grown me and given me exponential returns in life. maybe it sounds like a boring sad lonely life but it has helped me grow a lot and because of that growth which is in my life there is a lot of excitement so maybe no other experience so yes I want to disagree but I can't stay with myself so how do I do it? I will just add to that loneliness is not a bad thing you can be alone and you can be happy it's very simple and I always tell people because you should have a little time alone. And if there is no one in your life, that is still okay.

2:26:13Build a routine, read a book, listen to a chant, watch a series and move on with your life. The people will always stay with you. Like you're saying, they won't do my bad thing. Exactly the same philosophy. The people will always stay with you. And as long as you go on this journey, that will grow your growth. So learn to eat alone. I advise to eat alone. India's biggest CEO's, learn to eat alone. And that is one thing I will leave you with. Very interesting. maybe don't learn but there's merit to it

2:26:43thank you so much thank you for spending time you know every time you come here I love making podcasts with you from this year I want to do this that instead of you coming once a year we should do this at least three four times a year sure and next time say we will have agenda less conversation because what I've realized with you it's there are so many directions which I explore randomly by just talking to you and I love it and I'm like I can go on and on it's just one thing so I should next time we should do that let's explore like no agenda conversation and we'll figure out how it is yeah yeah sure because you read so much you'll have something you'll have a new insight that we'll have it's like a rabbit hole but thank you so much thank you so much thank you I believe this and I'm not saying this because you're here I believe this and my team knows this you're one of the rarest guests who have been probably fourth time yeah right it's like you have no idea how much you're gonna shine like it's just time I think world is sleeping on your knowledge it's only maybe some different time risk will be maybe it's just same thing will be and will realize in the world or maybe I don't know what's the answer for it but I think it's going to come and it's going to come in a big way people will realize the kind of knowledge you have and more than knowledge the way you teach people that thing I think people they're just sleeping on you like my family says you are the angel who's come to fulfill my dreams so like everybody at home you should come home sometime I will definitely you will get a king's treatment at my house when you come.

2:28:33Now I know this. Now I'm going to be a fool. Thank you so much. If you're watching this in the family, then it means a lot that you guys think higher of me, but trust me, it's him, not me. Thank you so much for watching this episode. Now you have to do three things. Number one, subscribe to this channel so that we can bring you more valuable guests for this kind of and we can ask them what you want. Number two, tell me in the comments that you and who you want to see in our podcast so that we take them and ask them the questions you want and number 3, this episode must be a person with a person which will change a positive change because one conversation enough for someone's life change I'll see you next time until then, keep figuring out

2:29:34Queen is also very stable אז Sometimes eyes And sometimes eyes To came up to our clients