Sanjiv Goenka On Billionaires, The Next Big Opportunities & Building Wealth | FO553 Raj Shamani

32:57and how much of this entire chain comes from your company yeah in Calcutta everything everything from that till the last switch like every transformer everything so when we took over we didn't have substations we didn't have a full network which was efficient we didn't have transformers which were efficient so it was a whole system that needed refixing what's the most difficult part of it? The generation or the distribution? The generation is actually easier because once your plant is set up then you only need preventive maintenance and regular maintenance and the plant churns out. Okay. It's dealing with the consumer that's far more difficult.

33:46But dealing with consumer that's service. So every time they'll have billing issues or something like that. You actually have to keep constantly communicating, educating and so we had a similar experience in Greater Noida where when we took over the distribution we didn't realize we were getting into situations where Gundas were involved and so people came and took chairs and banged them over the heads of our people so it was quite horrific recent like no this was several years ago when we took over that today it's a very highly successful company and in the UP assembly it's been hailed out as an extraordinary example of privatization so you were telling me so people were hitting and then and we won't pay a meter we won't pay money and so again it was a repeat but once you've gone through one it's easier to go through the next but it's a process and from 30-40 years ago to now it's become much easier because people are more exposed, educated they frankly want a service and 90 % of the people are willing to pay for the consumption right?

35:15So that mindset has changed. Fair and it's what is about rains that we somehow still lose electricity during the rains like something goes off something specifically which is hard about the business in the rains it doesn't work out in our in the cities where we distribute that doesn't happen okay but in usual cities you'll always hear like i i'm from indore right so there's two 27 365 days there is power if ever sometimes there's a power cut it's usually midnight during the rains something has happened and people usually blame it that oh because the weather was bad i don't think weather has anything to do with that okay it's just an excuse so if a city loses power okay now that the distribution is right generation is right servicing is right your system's in place still there must be some black swan event where city loses power.

36:15You can have, say if you have a huge cyclone, then you can have a situation which we've had in Calcutta where trees get uprooted and they fall on power lines. So then the lines snap. Okay. So there have been those situations. We had Amphan, which was one of the biggest cyclones that India has seen. And the Calcutta Municipal Corporation did not have electric saws. So you could not cut the trees. Over 200 trees, which were like 70, 80, 100 years old, had fallen. Because the government had built, you know, instead of the mud and everything that the tree grew on, they had built roads and pavements.

37:13So as it is, the roots have become shaky. They had cut off the roots. So the moment the wind was falling, it fell and fell. And they fell on lines. Now, you have to cut the trees, but the Calcutta Municipal Corporation did not have electric saws. So then again, the angst came on us. that you have no source, your own life. We are not the civic authority, right? We had a few civic, we had a few electric source. But so these are the situations where you can have, if you're consuming your transformer, you asked for X kilowatts of power. Yeah. And without intimation, you're actually drawing, 2x or 3x, up to a point, the transformer has the ability to give you extra power.

38:15Beyond that, the transformer bursts. So, people have asked for, they've said, we've got eight ACs. But they've actually installed 18. So the transformer will not function. It will either burst or just stop functioning. Yeah. and in which case then you have a power cut and it's one transformer is not serving just one supply it's serving a whole area so then the power goes off everywhere so one person or like five people can be responsible for something like this so the weakest link in the entire power cut situation apart from natural calamities is the over consumption it's the over consumption without or is it like some part or something in transformer some loose thing which keeps you see the technology has advanced so much that it's very rare for you to for the machine to fail okay so it's over consumption it's over consumption I didn't know that I always thought that there is some some loose connection which goes wrong in transformer that's why the transformer burst and then we face all of these problems so us is the problem we've had one power cut in our office once which was and we had to change that office because then we later realized that it was the overconsumption problem and we had to because our podcast was supposed to go live at 9.09 as scheduled about 7.00 p.m the whole office is off just gone but it doesn't happen in the bomb it doesn't happen that's what for us it was first and then now we are calling they are like no it will fix so now there were like seven eight team members i was not even there in india and i didn't even know this is happening okay they didn't even tell me there were like four five of these like my my team members they picked up a system they sat on someone's bike went to someone's house connected the system there and uploaded the whole podcast but you can do it but you know frankly that is an illegal connection right going to someone's house and you've done it for a particular period that's fine just for that uploading and coming back that's fine but this is the kind of thing that people do all the time meaning they hook onto somebody else's supply but Vitu went inside the house and can use the system that's why now we are not hooking close to 80 % of our supply is underground so you can't do all that no no no I didn't hook but you actually connected to someone we went to the house and then inside house we started a system and did it but if you have something like this what option do you have exactly you say it's a joke it's a joke and we like the moment we got to know in our head the first 15 minutes I must have cursed everybody in the electricity board because that's the natural reaction it's a very natural thing we're in 2025 this is 25 not it was last year I think 2025 this is happening yeah absolutely so that was the problem okay so this was your power power company right when last time when we met after a podcast you were telling me about Sare Gama and that story has been in my head and it's printed tell me the story of how did you acquire Saragama that's one at what price that's also I want to know and then see why okay so Saragama was acquired by my father okay and he was a very great friend of the worldwide CEO of HMV as it was called in those days Bhaskar Menon and Bhaskar Menon was in India and he invited my dad for a cup of coffee

42:40and I did one thing or another he told him this company is very sick and sick and it's going to be and I'm going to stop it

42:53so dad came and he said that HMV is closed.

43:00So my mother was very much into music. She would listen to music for about five, six hours every day. And she knew every song, everything, like the lyrics, everything. So she said, this is a waste.

43:19So dad then went and in those days there were no mobiles. and phones didn't get and he did engage so he went and met Bhaskar and he told him you will so he said I will sell it is 13 crore liability so he said how much will sell he said it is rupe but that liability is your So dad said okay. That's how the deal got done. In one rupee he bought all the money. All the money. Literally in one rupee. And then mom was involved with running it. But she was running it out of emotion and not from a business perspective.

44:19Then you, it was, those days records LPs and then it got converted into cassettes cassettes got converted into CDs and we set up a CD manufacturing facility etc etc etc and we had some of the biggest hits of all time Dilwale Dulhania Le Jayenge Mainai Pyaar Kiya Hum Aapke Hai Kawn 1942 A Love Story Duplicate of Yash Johar some phenomenal hits but we were grappling with piracy okay and there was mass scale piracy there was organized piracy like CDs 10 rupay fake counterfeits yeah and it was an organized thing that was happening yeah so I went to Arun Jaitli who was one of the foremost lawyers and legal brains in the country.

45:24And I said, what's the solution? What's the solution? He said, I have to study. So he said, let's meet tomorrow evening at 9. So I went into his chamber tomorrow evening at 9. And he said, I've got this answer. I said, what is the answer? He said, version does not do counterfeit legally does not do illegal but version does not do

46:08we will have to file the court and he says 6 months but he says 100 % of the which is what happened. So that was the first step towards protecting our volumes and getting legitimate sales, or at least capturing part of the sales that were illegitimate or by counterfeiters. And then the whole process got digitized and distribution became digital. So then there was no question of piracy or counterfating or anything of that kind. And so that menace went away. But how does this business make money? What's the way? We own roughly, I mean, it's about 50 % of the total Indian music recorded or maybe 45 % of the total Indian music recorded.

47:01So till the time T-Series became a potent threat, all the music came to us. So all the recording was with us. then we somehow for 10-12 years we were absent from the music market why? no reason no plausible reason we said we don't want to compete with this and that was basically we I think had lost track okay there's little ignorance and then we came up with Caravan which was a technological marvel and then we realized that the more and more the Spotify's and the Savan's and you know the Ghanas of the world came people were not willing to pay only for old repertoire you needed new content they wanted the old one but it was new which was more relevant and then we got back into new Hindi film content and today we have over the last few years if you see the biggest hits are ours literally the biggest hits are ours I mean take the top 10 of the last 5 years 6 would be ours but how does this business make money like what do you mean by owning music you own the copyright and then where do you sell it who makes money so you sell it I mean YouTube consumption Spotify AdSense revenue and then you have the societies the PPLs and the IPRS which collect revenue for concerts and performances and then it's divided in a certain proportion and what do you mean by concerts so somebody has to sing your song they'll have to pay you they have to pay us so if there's a DJ who's playing so that is not always possible to correct but therefore and now the government has liberalized weddings and all from not having to pay this okay so but legally they were supposed to pay so if any DJ is playing a song in a wedding was supposed to pay but now it's no more now it's no more so anybody can play but in a restaurant if you're playing in a wedding in a wedding okay but in a restaurant if someone's playing then they have to pay you so they have to buy so they pay to the no so typically to make it easier you pay to a society so there is a PPL which is a society which collects and then an IPRS which collects from everyone and then distributes to the music companies is it a big business just music owning yes yes it's a big business which is like just owning music and owning the rights of this or is there some other revenue out of it?

50:08No, it's about actually monetizing that music. I mean, so some... Two companies have recently taken our songs as jiggles for the ads. So they pay us for that. Okay. And what is the biggest challenge in this business? In the music business? You know, there is no certainty that the music will be ahead. So for every hit, you will have five flops. So the predictable model is not there at all. It's not completely predictable. It's somewhat unpredictable. But then how do you build a successful business in this? So it has to be a portfolio. It's like a fund in a way, right? Okay. But there has to be some thesis, right?

50:54For funds to succeed. It depends upon what is the storyline of the film? Who is the director? Who is the producer? Who are the stars? so is there a higher probability of success so Sanjay Leela Bansali is making love and more that is going to be probably the biggest film of recent times it has Ranbir Alia and Vicky so you have as big a star cast as you can imagine and Sanjay does things on a scale that is unbelievable and he creates magic so the chances of that succeeding are the highest compared to anything else. Fair. So just that... So if you have to pay 50 crores to acquire the audio rights, you say, okay, you're betting on Sanjay Leela Bhansali's creativity, on his ear for music, on his ability to picturize, on the stars who are going, you know, it's a combination.

51:55Got it. And his ability to do the storytelling. But do you get into, this is movie music, but do you get into then independent music oh yes we do I mean like how like Warner or people would get into it yeah so one of the biggest wedding songs of all time is our non-film album which one Aas Ajayave Sara Sheher it's it's now played at every wedding yeah literally and it's a non-movie song it's a non-movie song it's a beautiful song so it runs like a proper label of course of course So we've launched this young kid a couple of years ago, three, four years ago called Mahi. He's Shan's son, a brilliant student.

52:41He gave up his education at the age of 17 to focus purely on music. And he's probably 19 or 20 or 21 now. Has the potential of becoming one of the biggest music stars of all time. there's another young talent called Arjun Tawar who was the main lead for our theatrical production called Disco Dancer sings well, dances well so he's done a few albums for us so a lot of, I mean we've taken Diljeet Dosanj and we got him to do a song in Karan Johar's film for which we had the audio rights and so there is a lot of things that you do Diljeet is with you guys? No Diljeet is with Diljeet is Diljeet Okay He's not with anyone He's with Warner I don't know He does independent albums I mean Arijeet has just done a single for us recently So you know it's The big ones would do with everyone and you would capitalize on certain things but all Diljit's concerts are done by Saregama okay and I was looking at some chart that your old songs are suddenly now making you the maximum revenue why is that like there are a few songs which specifically like Mola Mere Mola Tujhko Pyaar Sajna these songs are now their revenue independently songs are growing like crazily because you see they're brilliant songs and there are so many of them a lot of Kishore Lata songs do phenomenally for us like now why it's reviving because retro is back and when you have reality shows like the Indian Idol and all they're all singing these songs so all of them have large audiences so people are hearing them and radio stations are playing it.

54:52So I think it's a combination of multiple factors and we are promoting it also. Fair. And a large part of promoting that, at least in my household, all of a sudden, this was a couple of years back, so my parents, because of us, started listening to new songs. But now there's revived because of Karwan. Exactly. So Karwan has become the biggest tool for retro music every home has a karma yeah like my mom has gone back to now listening to only Latha Mangesh and she's like she doesn't care about our songs anymore and you see if that's playing and if you're around so you're also listening to it yeah and say my grandkids if I'm listening to it they're also listening to it they may or may not enjoy it but they start identifying with it when they hear it and discos are playing it a lot I have started listening to them because my mom now and now mom's not even there then also I hear like 2-3 songs in my playlist I've added which are old songs so you know like I was I had gone for somebody's pre-wedding party and most of the songs that they were playing were Kishore Kumar songs yes remixed but those were the songs yeah at the end of the day Gars was a was the one which was there you know the yeah so revival that plays all the time everywhere yeah it's from I don't even think that it's an old song it's our generation song because it's been remixed so much so much exactly Exactly.

56:46So tell me about Carwan. How that came out? Like in the world of technology, in the world of... So it's a technological marvel, honestly. Because nobody has been able to even reverse engineer and everyone has tried. But it's an old device. No, device looks old. It's not an old device. It's a completely modern device. But we wanted it to be associated with nostalgia. How did that thought come in? like I want to start from scratch like how why did you even think of having this so the idea is that how do you get how do you revive your catalogue who listens to your catalogue it's 50 plus 60 plus people in those days now it's 40 plus

57:34so they don't use they're not listening because they they don't know how to go to their phones and play music they don't have Spotify it's inconvenient in for them. How do you make it in a way technology proof? Use technology to make it technology proof and make it simple. So that was the concept. And we worked on it and we got it. And then how do you actually don't intimidate them with just the appearance? And my family used to own Murphy and in our conference room by some quirk of coincidence there was an old Murphy radio lying. So the thought came up around the table that why don't we do something like this?

58:22So it's actually very similar to an old Murphy radio. And so that it's not intimidating to the older generation. And it's technology. So all you have to do, it's not even the click of a button. It's this. Yeah. It's rotating a knob. Yeah. which is what they've done all their lives. And you've created moods, playlists, artist-wise, film-wise, genre-wise. So it just keeps playing. And so that has been, it was a technological success. It was a marketing success. And that has contributed hugely to the revival of the popularity of the old songs. And the thought started with how can we serve people who listen to our audience?

59:12and make it easier for them. And then when we wanted to market it, we didn't want to spend too much money because we didn't know whether it'll succeed or not. So we wanted to make, we wanted to do social media. And in those days, social media was just about beginning to get relevant. So we wanted to create a film which was not a typical ad film. It was a story. Okay. And it was a story, we said, which had to make you cry. so we gave the brief to this filmmaker and he came up with this concept that a husband and wife their time together was spent in listening to old music and that is how they spent their retired life then the wife passed away and the husband didn't know what to do and he didn't know how to put on a cassette or a CD or whatever it was then his children got him this karva and he started listening to this and he found his zest for life again so when the first time I heard the narration I had tears in my eyes because of the way it was narrated and when I saw the film I cried I literally cried.

1:00:39And… It took three months for the film to go viral, but then it did. And because of the film, Caravan became like a hot property. So the marketing was brilliant. And we spent almost no money on it. Because it was just reels and the same things being reposted. And people were not sharing it for Caravan. They were saying how sensitive and how beautiful and what a lovely film. and then by the process it was caravan caravan caravan caravan which film did you see that film you did 5 minutes so and most people didn't even call it caravan they called it caravan they still do but that's fine as long as you keep buying it it's fine do you think I was looking at this trend in western world there all of a sudden now venial culture has come back like the old they're buying those old like you can put out that vinyl and then you run it and it's it's something which is becoming big yeah but you know what's happening also it's something that's coming back to an extent like the vintage value and everything is coming back yeah the vintage value is coming back but it's not good to become mass so we are also doing some bits of it but it's not good to be bread and butter for us ever yeah and it's going to be a niche and does it is it also because India never had vinyl at mass so that's why people don't even have a vintage value around it no people do I mean maybe individual households didn't but there was a Sarpanch's house or this or that which had it so people listen to it on a community basis okay so people are aware of the concept so we also did initially we went to different gram panchayats and all and we gifted them a karma Nice.

1:02:37And when they were sitting, they would play. And then people were experiencing what it is and then people started buying it because of that. So would you call this the biggest transformation moment for Saregama? For sure. For sure. Karma. Karma. And then now the next big thing is getting into films in a big way with our investment and eventually 50 % stake in Sanjay Leela Bansali's company. Why him? Why not him? Fair. But how did this start? From where did you get an idea that, hey, we should be involved in films and we should be involved with Sanjay Leela Bansali? So we had started producing our own films.

1:03:29so 26 or 27 of our films are on Hotstar Prime Netflix etc etc but we didn't have the courage to get into big budget films and that's where the money is on a studio level production on a studio level and how do you convert it into a full-fledged studio it would take us 10 years to do it so the next obvious thing was to really buy into a studio and Sanjay Leela Bhansali is the biggest, the grandest and the best of them all, right? So he was always somebody who we wanted. And then I was having lunch with Karan Johar in London. And he said, you know, I'm looking at divesting 50 % of my company. Dharma, would you be interested?

1:04:21So we got into the dialogue and we almost came to a deal. In fact, did come to a deal. then the legal teams took over and they screwed up big time so you know the deal fell through so Karan backed out after that Karan did the deal with Adar but in the meanwhile we had got an approach from Bansali Productions oh they already approached you yeah and because we were in dialogue with Dharma we were sort of We felt it would not be ethical to pursue that dialogue. The moment that deal didn't happen, we pursued this. And this was... He was Sanjay's anyway. I mean, nobody can produce films like Sanjay can.

1:05:15Like every film of his is beautiful. I mean, and the massive. But we can't compare like the Karan or Sanjay at all. They're two totally different models. And they're both geniuses in their own way. They're both geniuses. And I have nothing but the deepest of respect for both of them. They're both very good friends. We are in regular touch. And I really have nothing but respect and affection for both. But I'm delighted to be with Sanjay. And how did your first, so first time when the Bansali production reached out to you, how did that meeting or first time when you met him? It was actually very smooth.

1:05:58It took a lot of time, but it was very smooth because I think both were keen to work together. And both appreciated the value that the other was bringing and neither wanted to intrude on the other's expertise. so I think it sort of worked out well he has an extraordinary CEO a very capable lady so I think the team is good and I think we are very excited nice do you think it's regional cinema regional music the entire conversation around regional content do you think that's the future? Yes, we are now getting into regional in a very big way Tamil, Telugu, Malayali, Gujarati, Punjabi, Marathi Where do you see the maximum growth now?

1:07:04Where is it? Right now, a lot of growth is happening in the Telugu sector but everything is growing and growing exponentially so we've acquired a Punjabi label we've acquired a small thing in the Bojpuri label I mean all of them are growing and regional music consumption is just growing leaps and bounds but any specific pattern or trend you're seeing that this specific language is doing well like Punjabi just killed it right now Punjabi is almost a global music it's really big like all around the world volumes in Telugu are very big volumes in Telugu but is it consumption is global or Indian it's by telugu speaking people across the world no it's not growing beyond telugu speaking people yet like how punjabi has gone i don't speak punjabi but i listen to punjabi music i love it like the music is like the music is great right i don't understand a b c d any lyric but i just enjoy the rhythm of telugu i mean of even the south end music has a lot of rhythm it's a different kind of rhythm it's a different kind of a beat but there is a certain energy in that so people vibe with the energy I've heard very less of it so I wouldn't know but is there any special you see Telugu or Bhojpuri or Haryanvi or any other language which is coming up and is growing beyond the speakers I saw Haryanvi just started picking up you know Raj honestly all the regions I mean it's a question of time before they all start growing globally yeah like do you think any any Indian language which will have its Spanish kind of moment like how Spanish music just became the global music it's no more Spanish moment anymore I think Hindi Hindi is not catching up not we've had an international major who's taken one of our songs for their ad campaign who?

1:09:24it's yet to come nice so Hindi is also making but I see Hindi music being enjoyed by a lot of Hindi speakers all around the world and just because Indians are so many all around the world we enjoy it so we hear it in different parts of the world right i've not seen like other nationalities enjoying hindi music yet at scale not yet but it's beginning to happen like how spanish became like how the bad bunny bad bunny is the biggest global star right now right and he's spanish star he's he doesn't speak he doesn't sing in english he sings in spanish so do you think we have any moment like that but you know now hindi films are getting consumed in china in a big way in russia in a big way i mean you hear of films doing 500 600 700 crores of revenue in china yeah so films are getting consumed it's a question of time that music will also get consumed true okay so this is the music part of the business and the production house business right there are so many other things which you have acquired, transformed and you have done a great job with them.

1:10:44I want to understand what do you see when you acquire? It's about whether we can get, we're getting something at values which are cheaper than the potential. But how, explain me this. How do you look at it as a business? So we buy, say when we bought a company like First Source, we bought it at 400 crores. The BPO industry seemed to have a good future. This own company was doing badly. So there was two kinds of opportunities. One was improvement inside the company. The other is the industry improvement. And today that 400 crores is worth maybe 25 ,000 crores or 23 ,000 crores or 24 ,000 crores.

1:11:36so it was an opportunity and then it's a question of managing the company and initially we didn't know much about the business we didn't know what goes into it today it's not just a BPO it's not a call center but it's also about data analytics it's about using AI to to drive customer satisfaction it's about actually becoming relevant to your client. So we've just finished 25 years of our relationship with Sky TV like in July. And we are now their sole vendor. So obviously they've gained confidence in our ability to deliver value. And we have some very long-standing relationships. We've been doing acquisitions in this space, which are either giving us a different customer profile or a different geography profile.

1:12:39And now we've grown this business from being US, UK, India and Philippines has grown all over Australia, South Africa, Venezuela, Trinidad, Mexico. All across. All across UAE. It's just grown.

1:13:07And so I think it takes a little bit of time to understand what works or what makes a business tick. But over six months, nine months, you start understanding that well. And then it's a question of just relentlessly driving margins. and when you acquire these companies the first thing you fix you find a ceo we generally don't try and change the existing ceo we try to if the ceo is capable then we keep him if he's not then we change him so why a ceo in an existing company was not able to scale but with you guys entering they're able to scale what's the difference motivation direction clarity security it's all psychological you're saying yeah there's nothing technical about the business usually in the in the first time you also need to give them a direction right aspiration so an individual may be satisfied with doing a 9 to 5 job and saying I'm going to the house 5 to 5 I'm going to be with my baby with my children and you motivate him and then he's happy to work till eight nine and deliver more you incentivize him you excite him you know it's it's a combination of a whole heap of things do you have a checklist like these are the these are three or five specific things that you want to see before you decide whether you will enter this business or no so potential of course is clear not loss making that's also clear not severely indebted I'm a very dataverse person so cash flows the product itself the future the competition you wouldn't do because we established that in the beginning also but you wouldn't do heavy valuation business which might generate cash one day because I can create similar values and cash flows with other opportunities.

1:15:17There's no shortage of opportunities today. But haven't you seen these large technology businesses? They have gotten built because they were not profit generating for 10, 15, 20 years. But you need those kind of pockets to sustain them as well. So you wouldn't invest like a VC in somebody? We do. So we've got a fund which is doing not startups but second stage startups. So it's a small fund below a thousand crores at this stage but it's doing exceedingly well. So I think we're seven or eight times mark to market from our investment values. Nice. So we do things like this. At a family level we do invest.

1:16:06So we've got investments in pre-IPO companies.

1:16:12One of whom was going to go to the markets and then yanked the IPO. So at a family office level, we're doing a lot of all this kind of stuff. But from a corporate perspective, I also have to... The one bet I took for the long term and staking longer than long was FMCG. Now our losses are down to single digits in a month. so that's a very strong improvement but it will still take me three years to start making money so it's been a very long bet so you know I'm but are you optimistic on FMTG now yes now I think we've got it right you lost hope in Biddle I didn't lose hope it was you see guilt free was a very narrow segment to be in yeah better for you is a much better segment because it's not guilt free but it's less guilt so it's 40 less trans fat it's not fat free yeah for example so you're with 2yam you're changing this so 2yam is is getting traction now uh the product is doing well it's very well accepted what did you get wrong about 2yam in the beginning it was too narrow uh it was too niche and narrow a product but you didn't see it that time that it would We didn't realize it.

1:17:39You thought it would be big enough. We didn't know enough to know that it was, again, it was a McKinsey-led initiative. And I think even they didn't realize that this is going to be so niche. Because the thing was that health, fitness, well-being is a major thing. and therefore this will work very well. So it got eyeballs. But a makhana gets only consumed so much, right? Yeah. Or a khakara gets consumed only so much. And those who consume khakara and want the authentic khakara, not a fat-free khakara. So those were things that we discovered. There was not enough of makhana plantation. So to source makhana was a problem.

1:18:32It's very freight intensive. and we were into niche products so until you have a mass product it doesn't really give you volume and if you don't have volume and scale distributors don't treat you with the same kind of attention and respect. That's why we got into chips and that's doing exceedingly well and that's driven the whole thing up. And now that's working out. Tell me one specific transformation or one acquisition or one industry where you got it wrong? Well, we acquired this chemical company called Aquafarm. Okay. It was an expensive acquisition. And we went with our philosophy of retaining the entire management.

1:19:23It was a family-run company. We didn't realize that large sections of the family were actually running each section and so when the family went out of management the so-called professionals people were not capable enough and it took us a year to realize that so we lost business in that one year so there was no point to revive that? No, no, it's on the path of revival now but we lost about 12 months to realize it and then to recruit people it's taken us about 7-8 months and you know now it's on the path to revival but what industry or what specific business so that's chemical so that's phosphonates but it's reviving third largest producer of phosphonates in the world so that's a big company it's a big company but we messed it up honestly because they acquired a family run business and then didn't realize that in a family run business the family is so involved that you don't have professional management.

1:20:34We had acquired professionally managed or multinational owned companies and there the professional management in each case was good. What would be your biggest crisis moment in life where you turned around something from crisis? Several, several, but I think... Give me two biggest and tell me the exact story. What was the crisis? What happened? What did you do? How did it turn around? So the biggest was where our competitor in the Calcutta power distribution business was our regulator. That was the state electricity board was the regulator and they were competing with us. The power minister didn't like my father and he didn't like me.

1:21:27he had said one of he was a vice chancellor of the jadapur university and he said that a certain student of his who was working in the company should become managing director and i was a kid and i told him i said sir but then he will not work for me he'll work for you so why would i do that quite apart from the fact that he was not capable of being the number one person in the company. Good, capable individual. But not for that position. So he was annoyed. Then he said you have to back down your stations. And you have to buy from the state electricity board. So then there was a penalty for not being at 80 % plant load factor.

1:22:20now you can be at 80 % plant growth factor but he's forcing you to back down to 30 % you have to buy from the state electricity board at a rupee higher than your cost of generation and then he's saying you're inefficient, your plant is operating at 30 % so you're an inefficient operator we are buying forced to buy from the state electricity board at higher rates and he's saying your rates are higher. So it was a and in those days it was the late 90s the approach was that don't confront or don't take a panga with the government. So they kept giving statement after statement after statement after statement and we were not giving the facts.

1:23:16So we went to court. So we won at the Calcutta High Court. Then the industry lobby, Bharat Chamber and the Jute Lobby, Indian Jute Manufacturers Association, went against us to the Supreme Court. We won there. Then the same industry lobbies went against us and said that it has to go to a division bench of the Supreme Court. we won there. And that period was an intensely difficult period

1:23:58because it was the might of the whole Bengal industry which was working against us, plus the Bengal government through the power minister. And how did it get solved then? Because when the courts, High Court, Supreme Court, then Supreme Court division bench, So that period of five years was very stressful. Did you think at any point you'll be done? You know, at that point in time, I was not, I wouldn't have got a buyer. Otherwise, I was at the point where I said, let me sell it. But you thought that you'd like this business is done, it's finished. I didn't think the business was finished. I just didn't think it was worth that effort and that pain and that trauma.

1:24:46In hindsight, it was. but at that point in time, I definitely felt it wasn't. So do you thank God that, thank God we didn't find a buyer today, that day? We didn't look for a buyer because we believed we would not find a buyer. Okay. So whether we would have or we would not have, we don't know. And can you, very naive question, can someone with so much power, money, billions of dollars, change a minister? I don't think it's that easy. It's not easy. You can't get the elected person changed. Elected or unelected. I mean, we couldn't, we didn't manage. And we didn't succeed in doing anything like this.

1:25:33Have you seen in India that with money, you can support a political party and actually turn around the narratives purely with money? not saying and you have to undermine the capabilities of a politician you know you have to make a distinction between Narendra Modi's India and the India before that Narendra Modi's India it is not possible you have to be efficient you have to be contributing towards the sector that you are in and he has transformed India it's become transparent It's become efficient. It's become competitive. Across the world, people look at India with dignity, respect. And that is because of Narendra, because of the way our prime minister has led the country.

1:26:34So I think today's world, I don't think it's possible at all. In the past, I don't know. I was maybe too young maybe too naive to understand it I can't really say but there like how how when we read or at least what we've been reading since we were kids on random tabloids and random people creating content that it's so easy to lobby and just change ministers by supporting xyz person you know today social media also a false narrative can be sponsored and you know it spreads and particularly negativity spreads because people love consuming that kind of reel or bite or whatever it is but you know I think these things remain for a short period eventually the truth and reality prevails do you get political pressure you are you are in a state where did we get political pressure yes do we get political pressure no okay

1:28:01okay coming to your family now I want to understand I last podcast also you know I asked you this in our off camera conversation also I ask you this that this years of legacy hundreds of years 200 years 220 220 years the business is running in the family since 220 years and it's only expanding and getting bigger and bigger majority businesses they don't last up to second or third generation right someone up there is blessing us but it's you guys were there when we were not even a democratic India then democratic India then governments kept changing then emergency happened then there was a time where we didn't know who is becoming prime minister right from that to now stability like you've seen phases and from one generation to another to another to another your seventh generation right yeah seventh there must be some core principle or core value which runs in your family what is that what are like two or three ingredients which you have learned from your parents or grandparents and you have to make it a point that you teach it to your kids as well so that business just keeps going?

1:29:38So one is reinvent yourself and don't be emotional about getting out of businesses which are not going to be relevant. Okay. So we started off as bankers to the East India Company then went into jute, textiles, tea. Bankers? Yeah, we were bankers to the East India Company, The Hind Commercial Bank used to belong to my family. Then got into jute, textile tea. Then into carbon black. Then into tires. Then into electricity. Then into technology. You know, and it just kept, you keep changing your portfolio with time. so you get into industries that are promising as opposed to industries that are sunset and be dispassionate about divestments so that is one thing that's ingrained into us don't be emotional about business the second thing was that you be fair in your dealings you can't get a dollar you can't get a dollar so I think if you are fair in your dealings at some stage there is some kind of a credit balance in you know some books someone's eyes you know I think fairness of dealing was important.

1:31:31And basically just being compassionate. So people who work with you, who work for you,

1:31:43not only root for you, but they pray for you. Have you ever taken a decision based on emotions? Because that's a core value that you've learned from your parents, not be emotional. But I'm sure you must have done it. I think

1:32:00we invested in building a school here which is now the city's best school. Yes, there was a need for a school but it was about giving back to society. The family has been here for 220 years. It's high time we gave back something to society and built something that's world class, international.

1:32:29So, the school makes money, but we are very clear that we've invested 500 crores in that project. We are not going to take back anything out of the school. Everything will go back into the school, into developing the school, into building the school. The hospital is Calcutta's number one hospital. We are building virtually a new hospital in the same premises. that is again an emotional decision the hospital will make money it's a profitable business but we are not taking dividends we are not you know so it's about these are things like you give back to society the mall that we have Calcutta didn't have a single mall worth its name so we said let's have a mall which has international brands and almost everyone we spoke with including consultants including property dealers property consultants the JLS of the world and whatever they all said luxury now that mall does exceedingly well but these were emotion based decisions setting up management institutes emotion based decisions getting into media was emotion-based.

1:33:54Why? It's a good business, but it was also a lot of emotion that went into that decision. So it wasn't... So for the major businesses, it wasn't. But say Hook Global, today is doing exceedingly well. It's got 10 million subscribers or whatever. Paid subscribers. Paid. So, and that too in the space of a short space of maybe a year, year and a half. So yes, the idea was to get into media, but was it purely commercial? No, it was a combination of the business of media and the emotion of media. Interesting. Why do you think Kolkata has lost the plot? because of 49 years we have had successive governments which have not worked

1:34:55a simple answer that's it because they were not pro business governments they are neither pro business they are neither pro development they are neither pro city because they have not invested anything in the roads in the infrastructure in anything do you feel this government is going to be pro business oh yes not only pro business but I think you can already see changes you can see development beginning to happen you can see projects beginning to happen you can see you can sort of smell development progress and changes but don't you think when a city or a state goes through 49-50 years of a similar kind of thought process then the entire government offices like small small people from the rural roots till the top everybody starts thinking that that culture become that so somebody coming at top can't change it overnight no but you see there's been a massive change in the administration as well and i think the bjp has a track record of delivering on development and infrastructure growth.

1:36:15And you can already see that beginning to happen. You can see the change in the administration and their attitude. How were you able to go from when you took over the business? It was when you joined the business with 4 ,000 crores? When I inherited the business, yeah, it was 4 ,000 crores. And today is more than 1 lakh crores. So from 4 ,000 crores to 1 lakh crores, So that's marvelous. How did you transform this? How did you grow from 4 ,000 crore to 1 lakh crore in a state which was not pro-development? So my investments so far have not really been in the state. They've been outside the state.

1:36:53I live here, but I invested outside. I'm now going to invest here. That's one of the biggest reasons for your growth, you think? Yes, for sure. No, really? Yeah. it's a lovely city to live in I mean despite whatever people might say it's a lovely city to live in people are wonderful they love you a lot but it was not a great city to do business in today it is becoming a good city to do business in and there must be some other reasons as well right what do you think personally I know you believe in God I know you believe in people I know you believe in so many other things but if you introspect and just you have to point out one specific trait about you confidence it's just that belief that I can do it and confidence which is not overconfidence you know what Sanjeev sir which is something very fascinating I've not told you this enough times actually I've never mentioned it to you you have hunger how do you create hunger in somebody who's been born into money?

1:38:14You know we never knew we had money. I'm telling you we never went, yes the house was palatial but to us that was home. We had never seen anything else. We didn't know anything else existed because we were kept sheltered from society. We went to a convent school between my cousin who was a year younger than me and I, we had six shirts and four shorts, which we shared. And that's all we had. There was no question of having anything else. We were not allowed to have anything else. My mother was a strict disciplinarian. But you would know, right? Like this is just a discipline activity. At some point you would get to know.

1:39:00We were kept away from everything. So we have money, but what money meant also we didn't know. So you thought you're upper middle class or middle class? We didn't know what a middle class or anything. It was kept away from us and in school we went to a school where the fees were 32 rupees a month which is what we paid. That's what everyone paid, right? And we had the least amount of pocket money to spend amongst everyone. so yes we went in a car and many kids came in a bus so that was a difference so that was our state of affluence and the family had jute mills where the school went for a picnic every year so you definitely knew you were something yeah but it meant nothing to us okay and we were brought up with that very specific thing my mother was very very particular that you will not spend you will not waste you will not indulge so that's the way all of us grew up but let's say now now your kids they know they know the privilege they know the private jets they know the billionaire lifestyle they know this fancy office they know art so they certainly do and kids are far more exposed exactly so how do you generate hunger in them so that they keep growing you know beyond the point it is for them to generate their own hunger it's not for us as parents it is for us to give them a good education good value systems good grounding then to grow or not grow is in their hands we can only create an enabling environment.

1:40:55We can give them thoughts. We can give them an organization. But to grow or not is up to them. What do you do? I'm going to be very specific. Okay, this is a big problem I keep listening to from a lot of my family business friends, right? And their parents specifically. How do you keep kids away from getting extremely distracted in the world when you're born into riches? And what I mean by that is a kid who's born with millions and billions of dollars, knows about it, goes to the best school of the world, goes to the best college in the world, hangs out with other really rich people. so you have access to distractions you have access to drugs you have access to addictions you have access to so many things which you can just be so constant communication and getting yourself in a position where you're not ordering them but they are seeking advice from you so they have to respect you and not respect you because you're older but respect you because they genuinely respect you one so they come to you voluntarily for advice two is you've taught them that these things are wrong this is out of the question this is maybe the third thing is you spend when you earn.

1:42:41So yes, you will wear a certain brand or a certain thing. You will, but you will not get like five shoes till you earn it. Then you spend it. What are you saying? So Shashwat now earns, spends, that's his call. He's still at home, is wearing this night suit which my mother had bought for him. she's not been, she's gone like almost eight years now. Every day he wears it, it's got like holes, but he says it's so comfortable. I want to wear this. Which is the emotional value, yeah. No, it's not only the emotional value, it's the comfort also. This is an example, but he does, it's the same. So it's not that he doesn't spend, but he earns and he spends, that's fine.

1:43:32But how do you instill this value is what I'm trying to understand. because when you have access, majority of people will get ruined and they do. It's difficult to have them. It's about telling them that it's not about spending money. You can, you have enough to spend through your life. It's about earning respect. It's about creating something. It's about creating value. It's about enhancing the legacy or redefining the legacy that you've inherited.

1:44:10It's about... It's not that they're short of consumption or life. I mean, their rooms are well furnished. They drive... His first luxury car came three years ago. Why would you not let him use your luxury car? he would right? no he wouldn't why? why would he? we grew up I grew up and my cousins grew up not having access my parents and grandfather and all had the Mercedes and this that and the other of the world if we went with them then to that extent we used it if Shashwath went with us then he used it but on his own no he had his own car so that was a luxury his wife had her own car but today they may have luxury cars but till three years ago they didn't why do you set such such rules though doesn't it create some level of

1:45:25distance between you and them because they'll be like a kid would be like hey I know my father's rich I know why can't I access it? What's the problem? Because we've explained to him that the concept is you own it. It's for your benefit. And if you would really want to do it, we would still say no. But do it. But this is why we believe you should not be doing it. Have you seen it in your family or in friends where they've also set certain ground rules and have taught their kids like that? My brother's kids would be growing up exactly the same way. Yeah. Because these values come from my mother.

1:46:09Fair. But have you seen that where it has not worked out? In some friend, family member need not to point it out. Enough. Enough examples of... It has not worked out. And what do you think what went wrong there? Because they came as diktats and there was no conviction of the parents themselves. and they were feeling very unhappy that he didn't get this Mercedes he didn't get this 5 carat he didn't get this he didn't get that he didn't get that he didn't get that he didn't get Kelly so you're almost like feeling guilty about not giving the child should you not? no, why should you? you're giving him good education you're giving him a good life a good life and a luxury life are two different things he has the means to a luxury life but he has to earn the right to the luxury life but now do you see difference in the way parenting or values going down to your grandkids is it a difference I think they are definitely more indulged than our kids were they are more exposed there is a why for everything why not for everything and So if you are eating an ice cream and you're saying no to me, why are you saying no to me?

1:47:36And you have to explain rationally. You can't say I'm old and you're young. That doesn't work with them. They want the full explanation, which is good. Yeah. Which is good. So there's a difference. They're definitely indulged. Their parents want them to have. The best class of life. All the toys. all the best class life yes but that's their prerogative as grandparents we have a perspective but it's for the parents to figure out to figure out but would you spoil your grandkids do you spoil your grandkids well my children definitely believe I do so you're a strict father but not a strict grandfather you know I think I'm definitely less strict than I was with the children.

1:48:33But my children believe I'm very liberal with the grandkids. So I don't know. They would know because if they've had the life that you're describing, definitely they would feel like that. Tell me one trait about you which you want your grandkids to learn from you. I would say faith. Faith in a supernatural power in God. For me, that is what has kept me going in the worst moments. You know, the very fact that it's a sense of security that there's someone with you.

1:49:28there is a supreme power who will look after you if it were to become really bad or the going were to become really dull. And that has given me a lot of strength and the ability to navigate through multiple major crises in my life. And I sincerely hope that they

1:49:51see the merit in what I am saying. Why do you believe in God so much? I believe in God. See, I don't know the why. I don't know the why. Honestly, but I do. I mean, and for me, this is, it's like constant. You know, it's... Why do you keep it? Why do you have it? It's a sense of security. And since you were a kid, you... My father used to do it. Probably I've seen him do it. I've also become like I think I also started believing in God since I was a kid because I saw my mom and dad and I still don't know why do I do that but it's just a thing that and faith is subjective right you either believe or you don't and when there is a trust then do it and I'm also a firm believer that destiny is written.

1:51:02So in a way, what is going to happen is at a macro level, maybe even at a micro level, defined. And it is due to the deeds or misdeeds of my previous life. What I do now will take me maybe to the next life. And I have done, for example, past life regression. And I was able to go back a couple of lives. And that has explained a number of things to me. Why I think like this or why am I scared of something or etc. Give me an example of what you learned. Okay, I'll give you another instance. There was a phase where I was having a mental battle with somebody. and I was extremely irritated, frustrated, angry, everything.

1:52:00Something negative happened to him. And I said, Okay. And I was genuinely pleased that something negative had happened. Three months later, the same thing happened to me with greater intensity, the same negative. and then I said, it comes back to haunt you. So there is somebody up there who was saying, you did this, now I'm going to whack you harder. So you know, it comes back. Has your life gotten better because of believing in God, God because of believing in past life sessions, because of believing in everything that you just spoke about? I'm very happy in my life. I'm actually in a very happy state.

1:53:01I'm not content because I want to do more things, but I'm very happy. What makes you sad? If anyone from my family is sad.

1:53:14for me the biggest grief so far has been my mother towards the end of her life crying in pain that is something that doesn't get away from me and I as a son was helpless she had cancer the cancer had eaten up her spine so no spine existed so when she was lying she was fine the moment you would prop her up she would cry in agony and those moments I I mean even to date after so many years that is something that is my worst moment of life do you do you get sad when people hate you? yes Does it bother you when people hate you or accuse you of something or troll you? So when people hate me, it depends on who they are.

1:54:25If they are relevant to me, it makes me very sad. Trolling used to bother me a lot initially. I can't say it doesn't bother me today, but it bothers me much less than it used to say a year ago, and even less than it used to maybe two years ago. But I've had a situation in my life several times where I've had structured, organized campaigns against me by near and dear ones. Initially, I didn't realize that people close to me were doing this kind of a thing. They were false. But they were spread with so much conviction that almost everyone believed that what they were saying was true. Over a period of time, the truth prevailed.

1:55:25I've had this in business. what I'm saying was even as a kid within my larger family we've had these situations

1:55:39Now you have other people who do it. They may feel hurt, they may feel jealous, they may feel aggrieved. For multiple reasons, or maybe different reasons.

1:55:57But, so a malafide criticism doesn't really impact me. if I've made a mistake I'm the first one to go and say I'm sorry and I would have no ego in terms of going and apologizing but if somebody gets hurt by something I've done that causes me to lose sleep I may not express it but it causes me to lose sleep and that is a point when I need to reflect and start thinking of what did I do that I shouldn't repeat. Not that it always happens. You do land up repeating these things sometimes. But definitely the frequency gets much less and the spacing between these incidents gets much wider. And how do you deal with the time when you get to know that your loved ones are organizing or maybe spreading hate against you?

1:57:09It's very stressful. How do you deal with that? How can you have a prescribed formula? You deal with different people differently. With some you go and talk it out if it helps. With some it becomes indifference. with some it becomes dislike. It's different depending upon the individual, depending upon the period in your life, depending upon how confident you are of yourself, how secure you are in your own skin. Because the more secure you are, the less you react, right? and the less it bothers you. But it is very stressful. It is very stressful. And when there are people who are very close to you, it's the worst.

1:58:14But it's a reality. Tell me one trait about you which you don't, which you don't want your family or your grandkids to have. I rely on my instincts a lot. how is that a bad thing? I don't know whether it's good or bad but I think the world is getting far more data driven, logic driven merit driven and the more that AI will come into play I mean people like me will still use instincts but I think two generations later who's to say whether instincts will have a role or not I think instincts will I'm a big believer the more and more the world becomes more data oriented people with strong instincts will have an edge over people who are just data driven obviously data will help you I would like to believe so because frankly if it's only data driven or if it's an algorithm driven then what is the difference between A and B and I also feel art will only be created by creativity will only be created by instinct.

1:59:28This data and logic cannot do. You have to be logicless. You have to be AI cannot create an emotion to my mind. Exactly. But who would have believed that AI can do all that AI is doing today? Fair. Never say never. The moment we say this, two days later, somebody will drop some new update and then this will be wrong. Yeah. I agree with that part. That's scary. but I feel that people with original thinking will keep creating art and original thinking only comes from instinct where you're a little delusional where you go against the tide just go with the gut feeling you know sometimes yeah it's just that some bones in your body tell you that this is right yeah and you can't explain it you can't explain it there's no logic to that feeling and when you at least when I get that I say you know and you know it's the right time and more often than not it works out yeah you can have a cap on the risk you're taking but you have to do it something out of just instinct and gut true true okay here's a question that I ask everyone okay in the end these days I've started doing it when were you most anxious in your life?

2:00:56When I heard my daughter cry in pain through her liver and I was two floors below and I could hear her two floors below and her father-in-law and I were sitting there and both of us had tears because we said this oh just after this suffering is finished and she refused to take an epidural she wanted a natural delivery and obviously that was it was anxiety that everything is finished and you didn't know when it will end and wow how do you deal with I can't even ask you that because but if you ever get anxious again or if you have gotten anxious again how do you personally deal with it? Is there a framework?

2:02:02Is there something which helps you get back? Is there some mental framework breathing technique? I don't know. I do a puja. So at that time you were doing puja? Yes. I was doing the Anamansha Ali sir. That helps you? It helps me. So when I sleep, there is a Hanuman Shali underneath my pillow. I mean, over the years, I know it by heart, but it's still there. Last question, we'll end it this way is, what's the cost of being Sanjeev Goenka? of being a chairman of multi-billion dollar conglomerate? I think people have expectations and you have to live up to those expectations. And the pressure of those expectations is sometimes a burden.

2:03:06What cost did you pay personally? so very often I mean the receiving end is more often than not the wife so the frustration comes out on her if you're short on time it's her time that goes away if you're frustrated you scream at her so you know and that's a big cost the relationship cost? Fortunately, Preeti has been understanding but in hindsight, very often I feel that she deserved better. I didn't need to give her hard time. I mean, my sense, my part of the suffering in that manner. And because she knew what it was, she took it well, but at the same time, it's not pleasant but now that you know that now I've I think I'm a lot less expressive you know I learned this principle in one conference I attended it was exactly around this then the speaker was speaking about he used to call it honey I'm home energy so every time you're home you tell yourself honey i'm home and then you shift your entire state and energy into something else because you can't bring your outside work here and you have to have a very different energy at home because if you come with bad energy at home everyone gets that everyone gets that and you'll end up being frustrated you'll end up screaming you'll end up being just not nice to yourself also and to others and it's not pleasant so every time you're home honey I'm home energy and then you switch off everything.

2:05:08The other cost is that if you're in a close group you can be yourself. Yeah. But if you're in a group of people who are not necessarily close then you get quoted and very often misquoted. So you have to be very mindful of what you say. That's a big cost to pay because you can't be absolutely real everywhere. You can't. Are you conscious about it? Yes. You learned it hard way or you knew it? I got misquoted very often. So you learned it the hard way. I learned it the hard way. And now that some people know me or recognize me, one has to be even more careful. And you see, Calcutta is a small society.

2:06:00so they they love quoting people so they'll say Sanjeev say he was talking to us he was talking to us maybe true but Sanjeev didn't say that is also true but you've not clarified it given the impression that he was talking to us so you know I think that's the kind of a thing that so I for example I go for a morning walk and I walk with different people some of whom over the years have become close so with them you can be open but many of them are walking with you because you are you you have some minor achievement or whatever and they're the propensity to quote and maybe subconsciously misquote is high so they're I've just learned to keep a smile and speak very little what's biggest misunderstanding about you?

2:07:03I don't know I really don't know but what do you think? where have you been misquoted the most? or what personality or character or trait do you think people know about you? which is not true I think most people now are getting to know me the people I care for know me for who I am so all these campaigns and this maliciousness and all has dissipated alright thank you so much thank you Raj it's always a pleasure thank you it's my pleasure I always enjoy talking to you and I always think about I'll ask certain things but it goes to a different direction but I'm happy thank you so much for doing this can you do one thing you know because I'm in Kolkata I've always wanted to try.

2:07:55Like when we go, can you get Jhalmuri for us? From somewhere. Of course, when you finish, first thing you'll have is Jhalmuri. Okay, perfect, done. Can we get some Jhalmuri on the other side? Thank you. Make it without coriander, that's it. Everything else is okay. And I eat spicy. Spicy? Full. Oil? Everything's okay. I just want to try. Chena madha? It's all going to be. Yes. I want to try once. I've never eaten. I've always heard. Sorry. So we do our own version at home now. Okay. So it's a very so-called Hildy Vahir. Okay. But so once a week. Nice. Thank you so much for watching this episode till the end.

2:08:39We would love to know what you liked or disliked about this episode. And which guest you would like to see again on this show. Or which are the new guests that you want to see. Let us know in the comments. your feedback helps us improve and make every episode a little better. I'll see you the next time. Until then, keep figuring out.